The grand debate between the most reverend bishops and the Presbyterian divines appointed by His Sacred Majesty as commissioners for the review and alteration of the Book of common prayer, &c. : being an exact account of their whole proceedings : the most perfect copy.

Reply. What is most for edification, is best known by expe∣rience, and by the reason of the thing; For the former, you are

not the Masters of all mens experience, but of your own, and others that have acquainted you with the same, as theirs: We also may warrantably professe in the name of our selves, and many thousands of sober pious persons, that we experience that these things are against our edification, and we beseech you do not by us, what you would not do by the poor la∣bouring servants of your family, to measure them all their dyet for quality or quantity, according to your own appe∣tites, which they think are diseased, and would be better, if you work'd as hard as they; And we gave you some of the reasons of our judgment. 1. Though we have not said that the people may not in psalmes to God concur in voice, (we speak of prayer which you should have observed) and though we only concluded it agreeable to the Scripture prac∣tice, for the people in prayer to say but their Amen, yet knowing not from whom to understand the will of God, and what is pleasing to him, better than from himself, we con∣sidered what the Scripture saith of the ordinary way of pub∣lick worship; and finding ordinarily that the people spoke no more in prayer (as distinct from Psalmes and praise) than their Amen, or meer consent, we desired to imitate the su∣rest pattern. 2. As we find that the Minister is the mouth of the people to God in publick (which Scripture, and the necessity of order, do require) so we were loath to counte∣nance the peoples invading of that Sacred Office, so far as they seem to us to do; 1. By reading half the Psalmes and Hymnes; 2. By saying half the Prayers, as the Minister doth the other half; 3. By being one of them the mouth of all the rest in the Confession at the Lords Supper; 4. By being the only Petitioners, in the far greatest part of all the Letanie, by their [good Lord deliver us] and [we beseech thee to hear us good Lord] while the Minister only reciteth the matter of the prayer, and maketh none of the Request at all, we fear lest by parity of reason, the people will claim the work of preaching, and other parts of the Ministerial Office; 3. And we mentioned that which all our ears are witnesses of, that while half the Psalmes, and Hymnes, &c. are said by such of the people as can say them, the murmure of their voices in most Congregations, is so intelligible and confused, as must hinder

the edification of all the rest; For who is edified by that which he cannot understand? we know not what you mean by citing 2 Chron. 7. 1, 4. Ezra 3. 11. where there is not a word of publick prayer, but in one place of an Acclamation, upon an extraordi∣nary sight of the Glory of the Lord, which made them praise the Lord, and say, [He is good, for his Mercy is for ever] When the prayer that went before was such as you call [a long te∣dious prayer] uttered by Solomon alone without such breaks, and discants; And in the other places is no mention of prayer at all, but of singing praise, and that not by the people, but by the Priests, and Levites, saying the same words [for he is good, for his Mercy endures for ever towards Israel.] The people are said to do no more than shout with a great shout, because the foundation of the house was laid: and if shouting be it that you would prove, it's not the thing in question. Let the or∣dinary mode of praying in Scripture be observed, in the Prayers of David, Solomon, Ezra, Daniel, or any other, and if they were by breaks, and frequent beginnings and endings, and alternate interlocutions of the people, as yours are, then we will conform to your mode, which now offends us; But if they were not, we beseech you reduce yours to the examples in the Scripture: we desire no other rule to decide the Controversie by. As to your Citation, 1 Socrat. there tells us of the alter∣nate singing of the Aruians in the reproach of the Orthodox, and that Chrysostome (not a Synod) compiled Hymnes to be sung in opposition to them in the streets, which came in the end to a Tumult and Bloodshed. And hereupon he tells us of the origi∣nal of alternate singing. viz. a pretended vision of Ignatius, that heard Angels sing in that order. And what is all this to alter∣nate reading, and praying, or to a Divine Institution, when here is no mention of reading, or praying, but of singing Hymnes? And that not upon pretence of Apostolical Traditi∣on, but a vision of uncertain credit. Theodor. also speaketh only of singing Psalmes alternately, and not a word of reading or praying so; And he fetcheth that way of singing also as Socrat. doth, but from the Church at Antioch, and not from any pretended doctrine, or practise of the Apostles; And nei∣ther of them speaks a word of the necessitie of it, or of for∣cing any to it, so that all these your Citations, speaking not a

word so much as of the very Subjects in question, are marvellously impertinent. The words [their Worship] seem to intimate, that singing Psalms is part (of our Worship) and not of yours, we hope you disown it not; for our parts we are not ashamed of it, your distinction between Hopkin's and David's Psalms, as if the Meetre allowed by Authority to be sung in Churches made them to be no more David's Psalms, seemeth to us a very hard saying. If it be because it is a Translation, then the Prose should be none of David's Psalms neither, nor any Transla∣tion be the Scripture. If it be because it is in Meetre, then the exactest Translation in Meetre should be none of the Scri∣pture. If because it's done imperfectly, then the old Tran∣slation of the Bible, used by the Common-Prayer-book, should not be Scripture. As to your reason for the supposed priority, 1. Scripture examples telling us, that the People had more part in the Psalms, than in the Prayers or Readings, satisfie us, that God and his Church then saw a disparity of Reason. 2. Common observation tells us, that there is more Order and less hindrance of Edification in the Peoples singing, than in their Reading, and Praying together vocally.