The grand debate between the most reverend bishops and the Presbyterian divines appointed by His Sacred Majesty as commissioners for the review and alteration of the Book of common prayer, &c. : being an exact account of their whole proceedings : the most perfect copy.

Reply. If the Liturgie should be altered, as is here required, and desired by us, that it could be no just offence to the generality (or any) of the soberest and most loyal Children of the Church (as you speak) is easie to be proved, by laying together the con∣siderations following: Because it is by themselves confessed to be alterable, as not having it self its former Constitution, till less than two hundred years ago. 2. And themselves affirm it to be not ne∣cessary to salvation, but a thing indifferent, while they exclude all higher institutions from the power of the Church. 3. They con∣fess it lawful to serve God without this Liturgie, without which he was served by other Churches above 1460 years, and with∣out which he is now served by other Churches, when the contrary minded doubt whether with it he be lawfully served. 4. Those that desire the alteration, desire no more than to serve God as the Churches did in the daies of the Apostles, that had their most infallible Conduct. 5. And they offer also such Formes as are more unquestionable as to their Congruency to the word of God, and to the nature of the several parts of Worship. 6. And yet though they desire the surest Concord and an universal

Reformation) they desire not to impose on others what they of∣fer, but can thankfully accept a Liberty to use what is to their own Consciences most unquestionably safe, while other men use that which they like better. So that set all this together, with the consideration of the necessity of the preaching the Word, and Com∣munion that is hereupon denied, and you may see it proved, That to have such a Liturgy so altered, that is confessed alterable, for so desirable an end, to the use only of those that cannot well use it, without urging others to any thing that they do themselves ac∣count unlawful, cannot be a matter of just offence to the generali∣ty of sober Children of the Church, nor to any one. And as to the reason given, it is apparently none. For, 1. Of those that scruple the unlawfulness of it, there are many that will not peremptorily affirm it unlawful, and condemn all that use it, but they dare not use it doubtingly themselves. 2. When our Papers were before you, we think it not just that you should say, that it's here desired to be altered, on the pretence that it is a direct cause of Schism and a superstitious usage: Have we any such expressions? If we have, let them be recited; if not, It is hard that this should even by you be thus affirmed, as is sayd by us, which we have not sayd: We have sayd [that the Ceremonies have been the Fountain of much evil, occasioning divisions, but not what you charge us to have sayd in words or sense. 3. And may not you alter them without approving, or seeming to approve the reason upon which the alteration is desired, when you have so great store of other reasons? The King in his Declaration is far enough from see∣ming to own the Charge against the things which he was pleased graciously to alter so far as is there exprest. If a Patient have a con∣ceit that some one thing would kill him, if he took it, the Physitian may well forbear him in that one thing, when it is not necessary to his health, without owning his reasons against it: If his Majesty have Subjects so weak as to contend about things indifferent, and if both sides err, one thinking them necessary, and the other sinful, may he not gratifie either of them, without seeming to reprove their errour. By this reason of yours he is by other men in such a Case necessitated to sin; For if he settle those things which some count necessary, he seems to approve of their opinion, that they are necessary: If he take them down when others call them sinful, he seems to own their charge of the sinfulness. But indeed he needeth not to do either, he may take them down, or leave them indifferent, professedly for unity and peace, and professedly dis∣own

the Errors on both sides. We are sorry if any did esteem these Forms and Ceremonies any better than mutable indifferent modes and circumstances of Worship: and did hazard estate or life for them as any otherwise esteemed: And we are sorry, that by our Divisions the Adversary of Peace hath gotten so great an advan∣tage against us, as that the Argument against necessary charitable forberance is fetch'd from the interest of the reputation of the contending Parties, that things may not be abated to others which you confess are indifferent and alterable, and which many of them durst not use, though to save their lives. And this because it will make them thought the pious, tender concienc'd men, and make others thought worse of. But with whom will it have these effects? those that you call the generality of the sober loyal children of the Church will think never the worse of themselves, because others have libertie to live by them without these things. And the rest, whose liberties you denie, will think rather the worse of you, than the better, for denying them their libertie in the worshipping of God. You undoubtedly argue here against the interest of Reputa∣tion, which you stand for, your Prefaces to your indulgencies, and your open Professions; and (if you will needs have it so) your own Practises, will tell the World loud enough, that the things which you adhered to with so great hazards are still lawfull in your Judgement, and it will be your honour, and add to your reputa∣tion, to abate them to others, when it is in your power to be more severe. And if you refuse it, their sufferings will tell the World loud enough, that for their parts they still take them to be things unlawful. As for the reasons by them produced to prove them sinfull, they have been publickly made known in the writings of many of them; In Ames his fresh sute against the Ceremonies, and in the Abridgement, &c. and in Bradshaw's, Nicols, and other mens Writings.