¶The thirtenth examination of Mayster Phil∣pot, before the Archbishop of Yorke, and diuers other Bishops.
* 1.1THe Thursday after, I was called in the morning be∣fore the Archbishop of Yorke, the Byshop of Chiche∣ster, the Bishop of Bath, and the Bishop of London. The Byshop of Chichester being first come, beganne to talke with me.
I am come of good will to talke with you, to in∣struct you what I can, to come to the Catholicke church, & to will you mistrust your owne iudgement, & to learn first to haue humility, & by the same to learne of others that be better learned then you, as they did learne of such as were their betters before them.
We must all be taughte of God, and I will with all humilitye learne of them that will infourme me by Gods worde, what I haue to doe. I confesse I haue but little learning in respect of you,* 1.2 that both of your yeares and great exercise to excell therin: but fayth consisteth not one∣lye in learning, but in simplicitye of beleuing that whiche Gods woorde teacheth. Therefore I will bee gladde to heare both of your Lordshippe, and of any other (that God hath reuealed vnto by hys word) the true doctrine ther∣of, and to thank you, that it doth please you to take paynes herein.
You take the first alleged, amisse, as though all men should be taught by inspiratiō, and not by learning. How do we beleue the gospel, but by the authority of the church and because the same hath allowed it?
S. Paule sayth: He learned not the Gospell by men,* 1.3 ney∣ther of men, but by the reuelatiō of Iesus Christ: which is a suf∣ficient proofe that the Gospell taketh not his authoritye of man, but of God onely.
S. Paule speaketh but of his own knowledge how he came thereto.
Nay, hee speaketh of the Gospell generally, Whyche commeth not from man, but from God,* 1.4 and that the Churche must onely teach that which commeth from God, and not mans preceptes.
Doth not Saynt Augustine say: I would not beleue the Gospell, if the authority of the Churche did not mooue me thereto?
I graunte that the authoritye of the Churche doeth moue the vnbeleeuers to beleeue, but yet the Church ge∣ueth not the woorde his authority:* 1.5 for the woorde hath his authority onely from God, and not of man: mē be but disposers thereof. For firste the worde hath his beyng be∣fore the Churche, and the woorde is the foundation of the church: and first is the foundation sure, before the building theron can be stedfast.
I perceiue you mistake me. I speake of the know∣ledge of the Gospell, and not of the authority: for by the church we haue all knowledge of the Gospell.
I confesse that. For fayth commeth by hearing, and hearing by the worde.* 1.6 And I acknowledge that God ap∣poynteth an ordinarye meanes for men to come vnto the knowledge now, and not myraculously, as he hath done in times past: yet we that be taught by men must take heede that we learne nothing els but that which was taught in the Primitiue church by reuelation. Here came in the By∣shop of Yorke, and the Bishop of Bath, and after they had saluted one another, and commoned a while together, the Archbishop of Yorke called me vnto them, saying,
Syr, wee hearing that you are out of the way, are come of charity to enforme you, & to bring you into ye true fayth, and to the catholicke church againe,* 1.7 willing you first to haue humility, and to be humble & willing to learne of your betters: for els we can do no good with you. And god sayth by his Prophet: On whom shall I rest, but on the hum∣ble & meeke, and such as tremble at my word. Now if you will so be, we will be glad to trauell with you.
I know that humility is the doore wherby we enter vnto Christ, and I thanke his goodnes I haue entred in at the same vnto him, & with all humility heare whatsoeuer truth you shall speake vnto me.
What be the matters you stande on, and require to be satisfied in?
My Lord, & it please your grace, we were entred into a good matter before you came, of the church and howe we should know the truth but by the church.
In deede that is the head, we neede to begynne at. For the church being truely knowne, we shal sooner agree in the particular thinges.
If your Lordships can proue the church of Rome to be ye true catholicke church it shall do much to persuade me toward that you would haue me encline vnto.
Why, let vs go to the definition of the church. What is it?
It is a Congregation of people, dispersed throughe the worlde, agreeing together in the woorde of GOD,* 1.8 vsing the Sacramentes and al other thinges according to the same.
Your definition is of many wordes to no purpose.
I do not precisely define the church, but declare vn∣to you what I thinke the church is.
Is the church visible or inuisible?
It is both visible and inuisible.* 1.9 The inuisible church is of all the electes of God onely: the visible consisteth of both good and bad, vsing all thinges in fayth, according to Gods word.
The church is an vniuersall congregation of fayth full people in Christ through the world: which this worde Catholick doth well expresse: for what is Catholicke els?* 1.10 doth it not signify vniuersall?
The church is defined by S. Austine to be called Ca∣tholike