Actes and monuments of matters most speciall and memorable, happenyng in the Church. [vol. 2, part 1] with an vniuersall history of the same, wherein is set forth at large the whole race and course of the Church, from the primitiue age to these latter tymes of ours, with the bloudy times, horrible troubles, and great persecutions agaynst the true martyrs of Christ, sought and wrought as well by heathen emperours, as nowe lately practised by Romish prelates, especially in this realme of England and Scotland. Newly reuised and recognised, partly also augmented, and now the fourth time agayne published and recommended to the studious reader, by the author (through the helpe of Christ our Lord) Iohn Foxe, which desireth thee good reader to helpe him with thy prayer.

¶The Examination and aunswere of John Rogers made to the L. Chancellor, and to the rest of the Counsell, the 22. of Ianuary, Anno. 1555.

The Lord Chauncellour.

FIrst the L. Chancellour said vnto me thus. Sir,* 1.1 ye haue heard of the state of the realme in which it stan∣deth now.

Rogers.

No my Lord, I haue bene kept in close pri∣son, and except there haue bene some generall thyng sayd at the table whē I was at dinner or supper, I haue heard nothing, and there haue I heard nothing whereupon any speciall thing might be grounded.

L. Chan.

Then sayd the L. Chancellor: Generall thynges, generall things, mockingly? Ye haue heard of my L. Car∣dinals commyng, and that the Parliament hath receyued his blessing, not one resisting vnto it, but one man which did speake against it. Such an vnitie, and such a myracle hath not bene seene. And all they, of which there are eyght score in one house, sayd one that was by (whose name I know not) haue with one assent and * 1.2 consent, receyued pardon of their offences, for the schisme that we haue had in England, in refusing the holy father of Rome to be hed of the Catholike Church. How say ye, are ye content to v∣nite and knit yourselfe to the fayth of the catholike church with vs in the state in which it is now in England? Wyll ye do that?

Rogers.

The Catholike Church I neuer did nor will dis∣sen•• from.

L. Chancel.

Nay, but I speake of the state of the Catholike church, in that wyse in which we stand now in England, hauyng receaued the Pope to be supreme head.

Rog.

* 1.3I know none other head but Christ, of his catholike church, neither will I acknowledge the Bishop of Rome to haue any more authority then any other bishop hath by the word of God, and by the doctrine of the olde and pure Catholike church 400. yeres after Christ.

L. Chaun.

Why didst thou then acknowledge King Henry the 8. to be supreme head of the church, if Christ be the one∣ly head?

Rog.

* 1.4I neuer graunted hym to haue any supremacy in spi∣rituall thyngs, as are the forgeuenesse of sinnes, geuing of the holy Ghost, authoritie to be a Iudge aboue the worde of God.

L. Chan.

Yea said he, and Tonstall B. of Duresme, and N. B. of Worcester,* 1.5 if thou hadst said so in his dayes (and they nodded the hed at me, with a laughter) thou hadst not ben alyue now.

Rog.

Which thing I denied, and would haue told how hee was said and ment to be supreme head. But they looked & laughed one vpon another, and made such a busines, that I was cōstrayned to let it passe. There lyeth also no great waight thereupon: for all the world knoweth what the meanyng was. The L. Chancellor also sayd to the L. Wil. Haward, that there was no inconuenience therin, to haue Christ to be supreme head,* 1.6 and the B. of Rome also: and when I was ready to haue answered that there could not be two heds of one church, and haue more plainly declared the vanity of that his reason, the L. Chancellor said: what saist thou? make vs a direct answer whether thou wilt be one of this catholike church, or not, with vs in the state in which we are now?

Rog.

My L. without faile I cannot beleeue, that ye your selues do thinke in your harts that he is supreme head in forgeuing of sinne.* 1.7 &c. (as is before sayd) seyng you, & all the bishops of the realme haue now xx. yeares long prea∣ched, and some of you also written to the contrary, and the Parliament hath so long agone condescended vnto it. And there he interrupted me thus.

L. Chan.

Tush that Parlament was with most great cru∣eltie constrained to abolish and put away the primacie frō the bishops of Rome.

Rog.

With crueltie? Why then I perceyue that you take a wrong way with crueltie to perswade mens consciences. For it should appeare by your doyngs now, that the cru∣elty then vsed hath not perswaded your consciences▪ How would you then haue our consciences, perswaded wyth cruelty.

L. Chan.

I talke to thee of no cruelty, but that they were so often & so cruelly called vpon in that Parlament, to let the Act go forward, yea and euen with force driuen thereunto, where as in this parliament it was so vniformly receiued, as is aforesayd.

Rog.

Here my L. Paget told me more plainly, what my L. Chauncellor ment.* 1.8 Unto whom I answered: My Lord what will ye conclude thereby? that the first Parliament was of lesse authoritie, because but few condescended vnto it? and this last Parliament of great authoritye, because more condescended vnto it? It goeth not (my Lord) by the more or lesser part, but by the wyser, truer, & godlier part: and I would haue sayd more, but the L. Chauncellour in∣terrupted me with his question, willyng me once agayne to aunswer him. For (sayd he) we haue mo to speake▪ with thē thou,* 1.9 which must come in after thee. And so there were in deed ten persons moe out of Newgate, besides two that were not called. Of which ten, one was a citizen of Lon∣don, which graunted vnto them, and ix. of the contrarye: which all came to prison agayne, and refused the cardinals blessing, and the authoritie of his holy fathers Church, sa∣uyng that one of these ix. was not asked the question other wyse then thus, whether hee would be an honest man as his father was before hym, and aunswering yea, he was so discharged by the friendship of my Lord William Ha∣ward (as I haue vnderstanded): He bade me tell hym what I would doe: whether I would enter into one Church with the whole Realme as it is now, or not? No, sayd I, I will first see it prooued by the Scriptures. Let me haue pen, inke, and bookes, &c. And I shall take vpon me plainly to set out the matter, so that the contrary shall be prooued to be true, & let any man that wil, conferre with me by writyng.* 1.10

L. Chan.

Nay, that shall not be permitted thee. Thou shalt neuer haue so much profered thee as thou hast now, if thou refuse it, and wilt not now condescend and agree to the ca∣tholike church. Here are ij. things, Mercy, and Iustice: If thou refuse the Queenes mercy now, then shalt thou haue Iustice ministred vnto thee.

Rog.

I neuer offended, nor was disobediēt vnto her grace,* 1.11 and yet I will not refuse her mercy. But if this shal be de∣nied me to conferre by writing, and to try out the truth▪ then it is not wel, but to far out of the way. Ye your selues (all the Bishops of the Realme) brought me to the know¦ledge of the pretensed primacie of the Bishop of Rome, when I was a yong man twenty yeares past: and wil ye now without collation▪ haue me to say and do the contra∣ry? I cannot be so perswaded.

L. Chan.

If thou wilt not receiue the Bishop of Rome to be supreme head of the Catholike Church,* 1.12 then thou shalt neuer haue her mercy thou maist be sure. And as touching conferring and triall, I am forbidden by the Scriptures to vse any conferring and triall with thee. For S. Paule teacheth me that I shall shun and eschew an heretike after one or two monitions, knowing that such an one is ouer∣throwen and is faulty, in as much as he is condemned by his owne iudgement.

Rog.

My L. I deny that I am an heretike: prooue ye that first, and then alledge the foresayd text. But still the Lord Chancellor played on one string, saying.

L. Chan.

If thou wilt enter into one Church with vs, &c. tell vs that,* 1.13 or els thou shalt neuer haue so much proferred thee agayne, as thou hast now.

Rog.

I will fynd it first in the Scripture, and see it tryed therby, before I receiue hym to be supreme head.

Wor.

Why? do ye not know what is in your Creed: Credo ecclesiam sanctam catholicam. I beleeue the holy Catholike Church.

Rog.

I fynde not the bishop of Rome there. For [Catho∣like] signifieth not the Romish Church: It signifieth the consent of all true teaching Churches of all tymes,* 1.14 and all ages. But how should the Bishop of Romes Church bee one of them which teacheth so many doctrines y^t are plain∣ly and directly against the word of God? Can that bishop be the true head of the Catholike Church that doth so? that is not possible.

L. Chancellor.

Shew me one of them, one, one, let me heare one.

Rog.

I remembred my selfe, that amongst so many I were best to shew one, and sayd I will shew you one.

L. Chan.

Let me heare that, let me heare that.

Rog.

The B. of Rome and hys Church, say, read, and sing all that they do in their congregations, in Latin,* 1.15 which is directly and plainly against the first to the Corrinthians, the 14. chapter.

L. Chan.

I deny that, I deny that, that is against the word of God. Let me see you prooue that, how prooue ye that?

Rog.

Thus I began to say the text from the beginning of the chap. Qui loquitur lingua,* 1.16 &c. to speake with tonge sayd I, is to speake with a strange tong: as Latine or Greeke, &c. and so to speake, is not to speake vnto mē, but to God. But ye speak in Latin, which is a strange tong, wherfore ye speake not vnto men, but vnto God * 1.17 (meanyng God only at the most.) This he graunted, that they speake not vnto men, but vnto God.

L. Chan.

Well, then it is in vayne vnto men.

Rog.

No, not in vaine. For one man speaketh in one tong, and another in another tong, and all well.

L. Chan.

Nay I wil prooue then, that he speaketh neyther to God nor to man, but vnto the wynde.

Rog.

I was willing to haue declared how and after what sort these two textes do agree (for they must agree,* 1.18 they be both the sayings of the holy Ghost, spoken by the Apostle Paule) as to witte, to speake, not to men, but vnto God▪ and to speake into the wynd: and so to haue gone forward with the proofe of my matter begon, but here arose a noyse and a confusion. Then sayd the L. Chancellor.

L. Chan.

To speake vnto God, and not vnto God, were vnpossible.

Rog.

I will prooue them possible.

L. Haward.

No sayd my Lorde William Haward to my L. Chauncellour: nowe will I beare you witnesse that hee is out of the way. For he graunted first, that they whiche speake in a straunge speach, speake vnto God: and now he sayth the contrary, that they speake neither to God, nor to man.

Rog.

I haue not graunted or sayde (turning me to my L. Haward) as ye report. I haue alledged the one text, and now I am come to the other. They must agree, and I can make them to agree. But as for you, you vnderstand not the matter.

L. Haward.

I vnderstand so much, that that is not possi∣ble. This is a poynte of Sophistrie,* 1.19 quoth Secretarye Bourne.

L. Chan.

Then the Lord Chauncellor began to tell the L.

Hawarde,* 1.20 that when hee was in high Dutchlande, they at Hale, which had before prayed and vsed their seruice all in dutch, began thē to turne part into latin, & part into dutch.

Worcest.

Yea and at Wittembergh to.

Rog.

Yea (but I could not be heard for the noise) in an U∣niuersitie, were men for the most part vnderstande the La∣tine, and yet not all in Latine. And I would haue tolde the order & haue gone forward both to haue answered my lord and to haue proued the thing that I had taken in hand: but perceiuing their talking and noyse to be too noysome,* 1.21 I was faine to thinke this in my heart (suffering them in the meane while to talke one of them one thynge, and an other a nother) Alas, neither wil, these men heare me if I speake, neither yet wil they suffer me to write. There is no remedy but let them alone, and commit the matter to God. Yet I began to go forward, and said that I would make the texts to agree, and to prooue my purpose well enough.

L. Chan.

No, no, thou canst proue nothing by the scripture. The scripture is dead: it must haue a liuely expositor.

Rog.

No the Scripture is aliue. But let me goe forwarde wyth my purpose.

Wor.

All heretikes haue alleaged the scriptures for them, and therefore we must haue a liuely expositor for them.

Rog.

Yea, all heretikes haue alleaged the Scriptures for them: but they were cōfuted by the scriptures, and by none other expositor.

Wor.

But they wold not confesse that they were ouercome by the scriptures, I am sure of that.

Rog.

I beleeue that: and yet were they ouercome by them, and in all Coūcels they were disputed with & ouerthrown by the scriptures.* 1.22 And heere I would haue declared howe they ought to procede in these daies, & so haue come againe to my purpose, but it was vnpossible, for one asked one thing, an other saide an other, so that I was faine to holde my peace, and let them talke. And euen whē I would haue taken holde on my proofe, the Lord Chauncelor bad, to pri∣son with me again: and away, away (said he) we haue more to talke withall: if I woulde not be reformed (so he termed it) away, away. Then vp I stoode, for I had kneeled all the while.

Then sir Richard Southwell, who stoode by in a win∣dow, sayd to me: thou wilt not burne in this geare when it commeth to the purpose,* 1.23 I know well that.

Rog.

Sir I cannot tel, but I trust to my Lorde God yes, lifting vp mine eyes vnto heauen.

B. of Ely.

* 1.24Then my Lord of Ely told me much of the Que∣nes Maiesties pleasure and meaning, and set it out wyth large wordes, saying that shee tooke them that woulde not receiue the Bishop of Romes supremacie, to be vnworthy to haue her mercy. &c.

Roger.

I sayde, I would not refuse her mercye, and yet I neuer offended her in all my life: And that I besought her Grace and all their honors to be good to me, reseruing my conscience.

Diuers speake at once.

No, quoth they then, a great sorte of them,* 1.25 and specially Secretary Bourne, a maried priest, and haue not offended the lawe?

Rog.

I sayd, I had not broken the Queenes lawe, nor yet any poynt of the law of the Realme therin, For I married where it was lawfull.

Diuers at once.

Where was that sayd they? thinking that to be vnlawfull in all places.* 1.26

Rog.

In Dutchland. And if ye had not heere in England made an open law that Priestes might haue had wiues, I would neuer haue come home again:* 1.27 for I brought a wife and eight children with me: whych thing yee might be sure that I would not haue done, if the lawes of the realme had not permitted it before.

Then there was a great noise, some saying that I was come too soone with such a sort: I should finde a soure com∣ming of it, and some one thing, some another. And one said (I coulde not well perceyue who) that there was neuer catholike man or countrey, that euer graunted that a priest might haue a wife.

Rog.

I sayd the Catholike churche neuer denied mariage to Priests,* 1.28 nor yet to any other man, and therewith was I going out of the chamber, the sergeaunt which brought me thether, hauing me by the arme.

Wor.

Then the B. of Worcester turned his face towardes me, and saide that I wist not where that church was or is.

Rog.

I sayd yes, that I could tell where it was, but there∣with went the sergeant with me out of the doore.

This was the very true effecte of all that was spoken vnto me, and of all that I answeared thereunto.

And here would I gladly make a more perfect answere to al y^e former obiections, as also a due proofe of that which I had taken in hande: but at this present I was informed that I should to morrow come to further answer. Where∣fore I am compelled to leaue out that which I wold most gladly haue done, desiring here the hearty & vnfained helpe of the praiers of all Christes true members, the true imps of the true vnfained Catholicke Churche, that the Lorde God of all cōsolation, wil now be my comfort, aid, strēgth, buckler and shield: as also of all my brethren that are in the same case & distresse, that I and they all may despise all ma∣ner of threats and cruelty, and euen the bitter burning fire and the dreadfull dart of death, and sticke like true soldiors to our deare & louing captaine Christ, our onely redemer, and sauiour, and also the only true head of the church, that doth all in vs al, which is y^e very property of an heade (and is a thing that all the Bishops of Rome cannot doe,) and that we doe not traiterously run out of his tents, or rather out of the plaine field from him, in the most ieopardy of the battaile, but that wee may perseuere in the fight (if he will not otherwise deliuer vs) till we be most cruelly slayne of his enemies. For this I most hartely, and at thys present, with weeping teares most instantly & earnestly desire and beseeche you all to pray: And also if I die, to be good to my poore and most honest wife, being a poore straunger, and all my little soules, hers and my children.* 1.29 Whom with all the whole faithfull and true catholicke congregation of Christ the Lord of life and death, saue, keepe and defend, in all the troubles and assaults of this vaine world, and to bryng at the last to euerlasting saluation, the true & sure inheritance of all crossed Christians. Amen, Amen.

The 27. day of Ianuarie at night.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Examination & aunswere of M. Iohn Rogers.
• * 1.2

  Ful sore against theyr wills if they could o∣therwise haue chosen.
• * 1.3

  No head of the Catholicke Church, but Christ.
• * 1.4

  The supremacie of king Henry 8. how it is to be taken.
• * 1.5

  Tonstall B. of Duresme. N. Bishop of Worcester.
• * 1.6

  The meaning why K. Henry was titled ••u∣preame head.
• * 1.7

  The Bishops contrary to theyr former doinges and wrytinges.
• * 1.8

  Truth goeth not by number nor by the grea∣ter part.
• * 1.9

  10. Prisoners out of New∣••••t•• to be 〈◊〉〈◊〉 before 〈…〉〈…〉.

  〈…〉〈…〉: the 10. yelded.
• * 1.10

  Steph Gardiner refused to haue the truth to be tryed by lear∣ning.
• * 1.11

  The B••••shop•• 〈…〉〈…〉 stand b•• theyr 〈…〉〈…〉 yet wi•••• suffer 〈◊〉〈◊〉 men so doe.
• * 1.12

  A fayr•••• tense to ••••cuse yo•••• ignora••••••
• * 1.13

  Gardine•• wil 〈◊〉〈◊〉 to that, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 which 〈◊〉〈◊〉 cānot 〈◊〉〈◊〉 to be 〈◊〉〈◊〉
• * 1.14

  The Pop•• church p••••••ued not to be Catho∣licke.
• * 1.15

  Latin Se••••uice.
• * 1.16

  Speaking a straung•• tongue, ••••gaynst S. Paule.
• * 1.17

  Imperf••••••tion.
• * 1.18

  1. Cor. 1•• To speak•• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 God 〈◊〉〈◊〉 To speak•• both to 〈◊〉〈◊〉 and man▪ To speak•• neyther 〈◊〉〈◊〉 God not 〈◊〉〈◊〉 mā, but 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉〈◊〉
• * 1.19

  Secretary Bourne. A 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Suaue••.
• * 1.20

  Anno 1555. ••ebrua¦••••
• * 1.21

  〈1 paragraph〉〈1 paragraph〉
• * 1.22

  Confused 〈◊〉〈◊〉 with∣••ut order.
• * 1.23

  Sir Rich. Southwell ••peaketh.
• * 1.24

  The bishop of Ely spea∣keth.
• * 1.25

  Diuers ••peake at ••nce.
• * 1.26

  Diuers speake at ••nce.
• * 1.27

  ••awfulnes of priestes mariage. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Rogers ••rought 8. children with him ••nto Eng∣••••nd.
• * 1.28

  M Rogers had away to prison.
• * 1.29

  M. Rogers care∣full prayer for his wife and children.