Actes and monuments of matters most speciall and memorable, happenyng in the Church. [vol. 2, part 1] with an vniuersall history of the same, wherein is set forth at large the whole race and course of the Church, from the primitiue age to these latter tymes of ours, with the bloudy times, horrible troubles, and great persecutions agaynst the true martyrs of Christ, sought and wrought as well by heathen emperours, as nowe lately practised by Romish prelates, especially in this realme of England and Scotland. Newly reuised and recognised, partly also augmented, and now the fourth time agayne published and recommended to the studious reader, by the author (through the helpe of Christ our Lord) Iohn Foxe, which desireth thee good reader to helpe him with thy prayer.

Talke betweene D. Harpsfield Archdeacon, and Mayster Bradford.

* 1.1VPon the xxv. of February Perciuall Creswell came w^t M. Harpsfield Archdeacon of London, and a seruaunt wayting vppon him. After formall salutations, he made a long Oration, of which this is a short summe: That al mē euen the infidels, Turkes, Iewes, Anabaptistes, and Li∣bertines desire felicitie as well as the Christians, and how that euery one thinketh they shall attayne to it by their re∣ligion. To which Bradford answered briefly, that he spake not farre amisse.

Harps.

Then sayd Harpsfield, but the way thither is not al alike.* 1.2 For the infidels by Iupiter, Iuno, the Turke by hys Alcoran: the Iew by his Thalmod, doe beleeue to come to heauen, For so may I speake of suche as beleue the immor¦talitie of the soule.

Brad.

You speake truely.

Harps.

Well, then here is the matter, to know the way to this heauen.

Brad.

* 1.3We may not inuent any manner of wayes. There is but one way, & that is Iesus Christ, as he himselfe doth witnesse: I am the way.

Harps.

It is true that you say, and false also. I suppose that you meane by Christ, beleuing in Christ.

Brad.

I haue learned to discerne betwixt fayth & Christ, Albeit I confesse, that who so beleueth in Christ, the same shall be saued.

Harps.

No not all that beleue in Christ: for some shall say Lord, Lord, haue not we cast out deuils. &c. But Christ wil an¦swere in the day of Iudgement to these: Depart from me, I know you not.

Brad.

You must make a difference betwixt beleuing, and saying I beleue,* 1.4 As for example: if one shuld say & sweare hee loueth you, for all his saying yee will not beleue hym when you see he goeth about to vtter and do al the euill a∣gainst you that he can.

Harps.

Well, this is not muche materiall. There is but one way Christ. How come we to know him? Where shal we seeke to finde him?

Brad

Forsooth, we must seeke him by his word, and in his word,* 1.5 and after his word.

Harpsfield.

Uery good, but tell me now how first we came into the companye of them that coulde tell vs this, but by Baptisme?

Brad.

Baptisme is the sacrament, by the which outwardly we are engrafted into Christ: I say outwardly, because I dare not exclude from Christ all that dye without Bap∣tisme. I will not tye God, where he is not bound. Some Infantes dye, whose Parentes desire Baptisme for them, and can not haue it.

Harps.

To those we may thinke perchaunce that God will shew mercy.

Brad.

Yea, the children whose parentes do contemne bap∣tisme, will not I condemne, because the childe shall not beare the fathers offence.

Harpsfield.

Well, we agree that by Baptisme then wee are brought,* 1.6 and, as a man would say, begotten to Christ. For Christ is our father, and the churche his spouse is our mo∣ther. As all men naturally haue Adam for their father, and and Eua for their mother: so all spirituall men haue christ for their father, and the Church for their mother. And as Eua was taken out of Adams side, so was the Church ta∣ken out of Christes side: whereout flowed bloud for the sa∣tisfaction and purgation of our sinnes.

Brad.

All this is truely spoken.

Harps.

* 1.7Now, then tell me whether this Churche of Christ hath not bene alwayes?

Brad.

Yea, sithens the creatiō of man, and shall be for euer.

Harps.

Uery good. But yet tel me whether this Church is a visible Church, or no?

Bradford.

It is no otherwise visible, then Christ was here on earth: that is, by no exteriour pompe or shewe that set∣teth her forth commonly, and therefore to see her wee must put on such eyes, as good men put on to see & know christ when hee walked here on earth: for as Eue was of y^e same substaunce that Adam was of, so was the Churche of the same substaunce that Christ was of, flesh of his flesh, & bone of his bones, as Paule sayth, Ephes 5. Looke therfore how Christ was visibly knowne to be Christ when he was on earth, that is, by considering hym after the word of GOD so is the Church knowne.

Harps.

I do not come to reason at this present, & therefor•• I will goe on forwarde.* 1.8 Is not this Churche a multi∣tude?

Brad,

Yes that it is. Howbeit, lat••t anguis in herba, as the Prouerbe is. For in your question is a subtiltie. What visible multitude was there in He••ias tyme, or whē Mo∣ses was on the Mount, Aaron and all Israell worship∣ping the Cal••e?

Harps.

Ye diuert from the matter.

Brad.

No, nothing at all. For I doe preuent you, know∣ing well where about you go. And therfore f••wer wordes might well serue if that you so would.

Harpsfield.

Well, I perceaue you haue knowledge, and by a litle perceiue I the more. Tel me yet more, whether this multiude haue not the Ministery or preachyng of Gods worde?

Bradford.

Syr, ye goe about the bushe. If ye vnderstande Preaching for confessing the Gospel, I will go with you: for els if you will, you may knowe that persecution often letteth preaching.

Harps.

Well, I meane it so. Tell mee yet more: hath it not the Sacramentes administred?

Brad.

It hath the sacramentes, howbeit the administratiō of them is often letted. But I wil put you from your pur∣pose, because I see where about you goe. If heretickes haue Baptisme and doe Baptise, as they did in S. Cipri∣ans tyme, you knowe this Baptisme is Baptisme, & not to be reiterate. This Bradford did speake, that the stāders by might see, that though the Papistes Church haue bap∣tisme which we haue receiued of them, yet therfore it is not the true Church, neither neede we to be baptised againe.

Harps.

You goe farre from the matter, and I perceiue you haue more errours then one.

Brad.

So you say: but that is not enough til you proue thē.

Harps.

Well, this Churche is a multitude. Hath it not the preaching of the Gospell, & the ministra••ion of the Sacra∣ments? & yet more: hath it not the power of Iurisdiction?

Bradford.

What iurisdiction is exercised in persecution and affliction?

Harps.

I meane by iurisdiction admonishing one an other and so forth.

Brad.

Well, go to: what then?

Harps.

It hath also succession of Byshoppes. And here he made such a doe to proue y^t this was an essentiall poynt.

Bradford.

You say as you woulde haue it: for if this parte fayle you, all the Church y^t you go about to set vp will fall down.* 1.9 You shall not finde in all y^e scripture this your essē∣tiall parte of succession of Byshops. In Christes Churche Antichrist will sit. And Peter telleth vs, as it went in the old Church afore Christes cōming, so will it be in the new church sithen Christes cōming: that is, as there were false Prophets, & such as bare rule were aduersaries to the true Prophets: so shall there be (sayth he (false teachers, euen of such as are Byshops, and beare rule amongest the people.

Harps.

You go alwayes out of the matter: but I will proue further the succession of Byshops.

Bradford.

Do so.

Harps.

Tell me, were not the Apostles Byshops?

Brad.

No, except you will make a new definition of a By∣shop, that is, geue him no certayne place.

Harps.

In deede, the Apostles office was not the Byshops office: for it was vniuersall, but yet Christ instituted By∣shops in his church as Paule saith: he hath geuē Pastors, Prophetes. &c. so that I trow it be proued by the Scrip∣tures the succession of Byshops to be an essentiall poynt.

Brad.

The Ministerie of Gods worde, and Ministers, be an essentiall poynt. But to translate this to the Byshops and their succession, is a plaine subtiltie: And therfore that it may be playne, I will aske you a question. Tel me, whe∣ther that the Scripture knew any difference betwene By∣shops and Ministers, which ye call Priestes?

Harps.

No.

Brad.

Well, then go on forewardes, and let vs see what ye shal get now by the succession of Byshops, that is, of Mi∣nisters, which can not be vnderstand of such Byshops as Minister not, but Lord it.

Harps

I perceiue that you are farre out of the way. By your doctrine you can neuer shew in your Church, a mul∣titude which ministreth Gods word & his Sacramentes, which hath iurisdiction and succession of Byshops, which hath from tyme to tyme beleued as you beleue, beginning

now and so going vpwardes as I will do of our doctrine and therefore are ye out of the church,* 1.10 & so cannot be saued. Perchaunce you will bring me downwardes a shewe to bleare peoples eyes: but to go vpwardes, that you can ne∣uer do, and this is the true tryall.

Brad.

* 1.11Yee must and will, I am assured, geue me leaue to follow the scriptures and examples of good men.

Harps

Yea.

Brad.

Well thē, Stephen was accused and condemned as I am, that he had taught new and false doctrine before the fathers of the Church then as they were taken. Stephen for his purgation improoueth their accusation. But how? doth he it by going vpwardes? no, but by cōming down∣wardes, beginning at Abrahā, and continuing still till E∣sayas tyme, and the peoples captiuitie. From whence he maketh a great leape vntill y^t time he was in, whiche was (I thinke) vpon a 400. yeares, & called them by their right names helhoundes, rather then heauen hounds. On this sort will I proue my fayth, & that can you neuer do yours.

Harpsfield.

* 1.12Yea sir, if we did knowe that you had the holye Ghost, then could we beleue you. Here Bradford woulde haue answered, that Steuens enemies would not beleue he had the holy Ghost, and therefore they did as they dyd: but as he was in speaking. M. Harps. arose vp, & the kee∣per and others that stode by, began to talk gently, praying Bradford to take heede to that maister Archdeacon spake, who still sayd that Bradford was out of the church.

Bradford.

Syr I am most certaine that I am in Christes Church, and I can shew a demonstration of my Religion from time to time continually.

God our father, for the name and bloud of his Christ be mer∣ciful vnto vs and vnto al his people, and deliuer them from false teachers, and blinde guydes, through whome (alas) I feare mee, much hurt will come to this realme of England. God our Father blesse vs, and keepe vs in hys truth and poore Churche for euer. Amen.

Then the Archdeacon departed, saying that he would come againe the next morning.

Notes

• * 1.1

  D. Harpsfield talketh with M. Bradford.
• * 1.2

  Felicitie coueted of all men, but the way to feli∣citie not knowen to all men.
• * 1.3

  The true way to felicitie.
• * 1.4

  Note the diffe∣rence betweene beleeuing and saying I beleue.
• * 1.5

  The way to come to Christ is by the worde: for by the word commeth fayth by fayth we come to Christ. Baptisme an outward seale whereby we are knowen to be Christians. Children which dye without Baptisme.
• * 1.6

  The Church is our mother.
• * 1.7

  Descent of the Church, The Chu••ch of Christ is visible euen as Christ was, that is, not by exteriour pompe or shew, but by the in∣warde eye.
• * 1.8

  Multitude not alwa•••• the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 marke to 〈…〉〈…〉 Church D. 〈…〉〈…〉. Prea••••••ng the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 goeth 〈◊〉〈◊〉 with 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Church, it be 〈…〉〈…〉 somety•••• 〈…〉〈…〉 Ad. 〈…〉〈…〉 is one 〈◊〉〈◊〉 but not b••••cause of 〈◊〉〈◊〉 true 〈◊〉〈◊〉 And yet 〈◊〉〈◊〉 such a 〈◊〉〈◊〉 but that 〈◊〉〈◊〉 may often lette•• by 〈◊〉〈◊〉 secution, yet the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Church r••••mayne. The Popes Church 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Baptisme 〈…〉〈…〉 the Popes Church 〈…〉〈…〉 A Popish ••••••stinction 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 be a 〈◊〉〈◊〉 hauing 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of Gospell, 〈…〉〈…〉 power 〈…〉〈…〉 successio•• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Byshop••▪
• * 1.9

  Success•••••• of Bysh•••• is no esse••••tial par•• the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 but rath•••• acciden•• commu••••••, which b••••ing inte••••rupted 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 may stan•• as it did both be Christe•• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 after, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 commi•••• Antich•••••••• Apostl•• Bishop•• sundry 〈◊〉〈◊〉▪ the min••••••ry of 〈◊〉〈◊〉 word a••••ministe•• an 〈◊〉〈◊〉 poynt o•• true 〈…〉〈…〉 locall s••••∣cession ••••••ministe•• one cer∣tayne 〈◊〉〈◊〉
• * 1.10

  〈1 paragraph〉〈1 paragraph〉
• * 1.11

  Anno 1555. ••••ly.
• * 1.12

  〈1 paragraph〉〈1 paragraph〉