Actes and monuments of matters most speciall and memorable, happenyng in the Church. [vol. 2, part 1] with an vniuersall history of the same, wherein is set forth at large the whole race and course of the Church, from the primitiue age to these latter tymes of ours, with the bloudy times, horrible troubles, and great persecutions agaynst the true martyrs of Christ, sought and wrought as well by heathen emperours, as nowe lately practised by Romish prelates, especially in this realme of England and Scotland. Newly reuised and recognised, partly also augmented, and now the fourth time agayne published and recommended to the studious reader, by the author (through the helpe of Christ our Lord) Iohn Foxe, which desireth thee good reader to helpe him with thy prayer.

¶The talke of Doctor Heth Archbishop of Yorke, and day Byshop of Chichester, with Maister Bradford.

THe xxiii. of the same moneth, the Archbishop of Yorke, and the Bishop of Chichester came to the Counter to speake with Bradford. When hee was come before them,* 1.1 they both, and especially the Bishop of York, vsed him ve∣ry gently: they would haue him to sit downe, and because he would not, they also would not sit. So they all stode: & whether he woulde or not, they would needes he shoulde put on, not only his night cap but his vpper cap also, say∣ing vnto him, that obedience was better then sacrifice.

Now thus standing together, my Lord of Yorke, be∣gan to tell Bradford howe that they were not sent to him, but of loue & charitie they came to him: and he, for that ac∣quayntance also whiche he had with Bradford, more then the Bishoppe of Chichester had: then after commending Bradfordes godly life, he concluded w^t this question: how he was certaine of saluation and of his Religion.

Brad▪

After thankes for theyr good will. Bradford aun∣swered: by the word of God, euen by the Scriptures I am certayne of saluation, and Religion.

Yorke.

Uery well sayd: but how do ye know the worde of God and the scriptures, but by the Church?

Bradford.

In deede my Lorde, the Churche was and is a meane to bring a man more speedely to knowe the Scrip∣tures and the worde of God, as was the woman of Sa∣maria a meane that the Samaritans knewe Christ: but

[illustration]

❧ Certayne Bishops talking with Maister Bradford in prison.

as when they had heard him speake, they sayde: nowe we know that he is Christ, not because of thy wordes but be∣cause wee our selues haue heard him: so after we came to the hearing and reading of the Scriptures shewed vnto vs and discerned by the Church, we doe beleue them, and knowe them as Christes sheepe, not because y^e Church saith they are the Scriptures, but because they be so be∣ing thereof assured by the same spirite whiche wrote and spake them.

Yorke▪

* 1.2You knowe: in the Apostles time at the first the word was not written.

Bradford.

True, if you meane it for some books of the new Testament: but els for the old Testament Peter telleth vs Firm••orem sermonem propheticum habemus: We haue a more sure worde of prophecie▪ not that it is simply so, but in re∣spect of the Apostles, which being aliue and compassed w^t infirmiti••, attributed to the worde written m••re firmitie, as wherewith no fault coulde be found, where as for the infirmitie of their persons men perchaunce might haue found some faulte at their preaching: albeit in very deede no lesse obedience and fayth ought to haue bene geuen to the one, then to the other: for all proceedeth foorth of one spirite of truth.

Yorke.

That place of Peter is not so to be vnderstand of the word written.

Brad.

Yea syr, that it is, and of none other.

Chic.

Yea, in deede Maister Bradford doth tell you truely in that poynt.

Yorke.

* 1.3Well, you know that Irenaeus and others doe mag∣nifie much and alleage the Church agaynst the heretickes, and not the scripture.

Bradford.

True, for they had to do with such heretickes as did deny the scriptures, and yet did magnifie the Apostles so that they were inforced to vse the authoritie of those Churches wherein the Apostles had taught, and whiche had still retayned the same doctrine.

Chic.

You speake the very truth: for the heretickes dyd re∣fuse all scriptures, except it were a peece of Lukes Gospel.

Brad.

Then the alledgyng of the Church cannot be princi∣ally vsed agaynst me, whiche am so farre from denying of the Scriptures that I appeale vnto them vtterly, as to the onely iudge.

Yorke.

A pretty matter, that you will take vppon you to iudge the Churche, I pray you where hath your Churche bene hetherto? For the church of Christ is Catholicke and visible hetherto.

Brad.

* 1.4My Lord, I doe not iudge the Church, when I dis∣cerne it from that congregation, & those whiche be not the Church, & I neuer denyed the Church to be Catholicke & visible althought at some times it is more visible then at some.

Chic.

I pray you tell me where the Church which allow∣ed your doctrine, was these foure hundreth yeares?

Brad.

I will tell you my Lord, or rather you shal tell your selfe, if you will tell me this one thing, where the Churche was in Helias his time, when Helias sayde that hee was left alone?

Chic.

That is no aunswere.

Bradford.

I am sory that you say so: but this will I tell your Lordship, that if you had the same eyes wherwith a man might haue espied the Churche then, you woulde not say it were no answere.* 1.5 The fault why the Church is not seene of you, is not because the Churche is not visible, but because your eyes are not cleare inough to see it.

Chic.

You are much deceaued in making this collation be∣twixt the Church then and now.

Yorke.

Uery well spoken my Lord, for Christ sayde aedifi∣cabo Ecclesiam, I will build my Church and not I doe, or haue built it, but I will build it.

Bradford.

* 1.6My Lordes, Peter teacheth me to make thys collation, saying: as in y^e people there were false Prophetes, which were most in estimation afore Christes comming, so shall there be false teachers amongest the people after Christes com∣ming and very many shall follow them And as for your future tense, I hope your grace will not therby conclude christes Church not to haue bene before, but rather that there is no building in the Church but by Christes worke onely: for Paule and Apollo be but watterers.

Chichester.

In good fayth I am sory to see you so light in iudging the Church.

Yorke.

He taketh vpon him as they all doe, to iudge the Church.* 1.7 A man shall neuer come to certaintie that doth as they do.

Brad.

My Lordes, I speake simply what I thinke, & de∣sire reason to aunswere my obiections. Your affections & sorrowes can not be my rules. If that you consider y^e or∣der and case of my condemnation. I can not thinke but y^t it should somethyng mo••e your honours. You knowe it well enough (for you heard it) no matter was layd against me, but what was gathered vpon mine owne confession. Because I did denye Transubstantiation and the wicked to receaue Christes body in the Sacrament, therefore I was condemned and excōmunicate, but not of the churche although the pillers of the church (as they be taken) did it.

Chichester.

No. I heard say the cause of your imprisonmēt was, for that you exhorted the people to take the sword in the one hand, and the mattocke in the other.

Brad.

My Lord, I neuer ment any such thing, nor spake any thing in that sort.* 1.8

Yorke.

Yea, and you behaued your selfe before the Counsel so stoutly at the first, that you would defend the Religion then: and therfore worthely were you prisoned.

Brad.

Your grace did heare me answere my Lord Chaun∣cellour to that poynt.* 1.9 But put case I had bene so stout as they and your Grace make it: were not the lawes of the Realme on my side then? Wherefore vniustly was I pri∣soned: onely that which my Lord Chauncellour propoun∣ded, was my confession of Christes trueth agaynst Tran∣substantiation, and of that whiche the wicked do receaue, as I sayd.

Yorke.

You deny the presence.

Brad.

I do not, to the fayth of the worthy receiuers.

Yorke.

Why? what is that to say other,* 1.10 then that Christ lyeth not on the aultar?

Brad.

My Lord, I beleue no such presence.

Chichest.

It seemeth that you haue not read Chrisostome for he proueth it.

Brad.

Hetherto I haue bene kept well inough without bookes: howbeit this I doe remember of Chrisostome,* 1.11 that he sayth that Christ lyeth vpon the aultar, as the Se∣raphines with their tongues touche our lippes with the coales of the aultar in heauen, which is an hyperbolicall lo∣quution, of whiche you know Chrisostome is full.

Yorke.

It is euident that you are to farre gone: but let vs come then to the Church, out of the whiche ye are excom∣municate.

Brad.

I am not excommunicate out of Christes Churche my Lord,* 1.12 although they which seeme to be in the Church and of the Church haue excommunicated me, as the poore blinde man was, Iohn. 9. I am sure Christ receiueth me.

Yorke.

You do deceiue your selfe.

Here, after much talke of excommunication, at length Bradford sayd.

Brad.

Assuredly, as I thinke you did well to departe from the Romish church, so I thinke ye haue done wickedly to couple your selues to it againe, for you can neuer prooue it, which you call the mother church, to be Christes Church.

Chichest.

Ah M. Bradford, you were but a child when this matter began. I was a yong man, and then comming frō the Uniuersitie, I went with the world, but I tell you it was alwayes against my conscience.

Brad.

I was but a child then: howbeit as I tolde you, I thinke you haue done euill.* 1.13 For ye are come & haue broght others to that wicked man which sitteth in the Temple of God, that is in the church: for it cannot be vnderstand of Mahomet, or any out of the Church, but of such as beare rule in the Church.

Yorke.

See how you build your fayth vpon such places of Scripture as are most obscure to deceyue your selfe, as though ye were in the Church where you are not.

Brad.

Well my Lord, though I might by fruites iudge of you and others: yet will I not vtterly exclude you out of the church. And if I were in your case, I would not con∣demne him vtterly, that is of my faith in the Sacrament: knowyng as you know, that at the least 800. yeares after Christ, as my L. of Duresme writeth,* 1.14 it was free to beleue or not to beleeue transubstantiation.

Yorke.

This is a toy that you haue found out of your own braine: as though a man not beleuing as the church doth, that is transubstantiation, were of the church.

Chichest.

He is an heretike, and so none of the Church that doth hold any doctrine against the definitiō of the church: as a man to hold against transubstantiatiō. Cyprian was no heretike though he beleued rebaptising of them which were baptised of heretikes, because hee helde it before the church had defined it, whereas if he had holden it after,* 1.15 thē had he bene an heretike.

Brad.

Oh my Lord, wil ye condemne to the deuill any man that beleeueth truely the xij. Articles of the fayth (wherein I ••ake the vnitie of Christes Church to consist) although in some points he beleeue not the definition of that which ye call the Church? I doubt not but that he which holdeth firmely the Articles of our beliefe, though in other thyngs he dissent from your definitions, yet he shalbe saued.

Yorke.

Chichester. Yea, sayde both the Byshops? this is your Diuinitie.

Brad.

No, it is Paules, which sayth, that if they holde the foundation Christ, though they build vpon him straw and stubble, yet they shall be saued.

Yorke.

Lord God, how you delite to leane to so hard and darke places of the Scriptures.

Chic.

I will shewe you how that Luther did excommu∣nicate Zuinglius for this matter, and so he read a place of Luther making for his purpose.

Brad.

My Lord, what Luther writeth, as you muche passe not,* 1.16 no more do I in this case▪ My fayth is not builded on Luther, Zuinglius, or Oecolampadius is this poynt: and in deede to tel you truely, I neuer read any of their works in this matter. As for them, I do think assuredly that they were, and are Gods Children and Sayntes with hym.

Yorke.

Well, you are out of y^e Communion of the Church.

Brad.

I am not: for it consisteth and is in fayth.

Yorke.

Loe, how make you your Church inuisible: for you would haue the Communion of it to consist in fayth.

Brad.

For to haue Communion with the Churche needeth no visiblenes of it:* 1.17 for Communion consisteth, as I sayd, in faith, and not in exterior ceremonies, as appeareth both by Paule, which would haue one fayth, and by Irenaeus to Uictor, for the obseruation of Easter, saying that disa∣greeing of fastyng shoulde not breake the agreeyng of fayth.

Chichester.

The same place hath often euen wounded my conscience, because we disseuered our selues from the Sea of Rome.

Bradford.

Well, God forgeue you: for you haue done euill to bryng England thether agayne.

Yorke.

Here my Lord of Yorke tooke a booke of paper of common places, and read a peece of Saint Austen contra Epistolam Fundamenti,* 1.18 how that there were many thinges that did holde S. Augustine in the bosome of the Churche consent of people and nations, authoritie confirmed wyth myracles,* 1.19 nourished with hope, encreased with charitie, established with antiquitie: besides this, there holdeth me in the Church, sayth S. Augustine, the succession of priests from Peters seate vntill this present Bishop. Last of all the very name of Catholicke doth hould me. &c. Lo (quoth he) how say you to this of Saint Augustine? paynt me out your Church thus.

Bradford.

My Lord these wordes of S. Augustine make as muche for me as for you: although I might aunswere, that all this, if they had bene so firme as you make them, might haue bene alledged against Christ and his apostles. For there was the lawe and the ceremonies consented on by the whole people, confirmed with myracles, antiquitie and continuall succession of Byshops from Aarons tyme vntill that present.

Chich.

In good fayth M. Bradford, you make to much of the state of the Church before Christes comming.* 1.20

Brad.

Therein I doe but as Peter teacheth. 2. Pet. 2. and Paule very often. You would gladly haue your Churche here very glorious, and as a most pleasant Lady. But as Christ sayde: Beatus est quicunque non fuerit offensus per me: So may his Churche say: Blessed are they that are not offen∣ded at me.

Yorke.

Yea, you thinke that none is of the Churche but such as suffer persecution.

Brad.

What I thinke, God knoweth. I pray your Grace iudge mee by my woordes and speaking,* 1.21 and marke that Paule sayth: Omnes qui. &c. All that will liue godly in Christ Iesu must suffer persecution. Sometimes Christes Churche hath rest here: but commonly it is not so, and specially to∣wardes the end her forme will be more vnseemely.

Yorke.

But what say you to Saint Augustine? where is your Church that hath the consent of people and nations?

Bradford.

Euen all people and nations that be Gods peo∣ple haue consented with me,* 1.22 and I with them in y^e docrine of fayth.

Yorke.

Lo, ye go about to shift off all thinges.

Bradford.

No my Lorde: I meane simply, and so speake, God knoweth.

Yorke.

Sainct Austen doth here talke of succession euen frō Peters seate.* 1.23

Brad.

Yea, that seate then was nothing so muche corrupte as it is now.

Yorke.

Well, you alwayes iudge the church.

Bradford.

* 1.24No my Lord, Christes sheepe discerne Christes voyce, but they iudge it not: so they discerne the Churche, but iudge her not.

Yorke.

Yes, that you do.

Bradford.

No, and it like your grace: and yet full well may one not onely doubt, but iudge also of the Romish church: for she obeyeth not christes voyce, as Christes true church doth.

Yorke.

Wherein.

Brad.

In latin seruice, and robbing the Laitie of Christes cup in the sacrament and in many other thinges, in which it committeth most horrible sacrilege.

Chic.

Why? Latin seruice was in England when the pope was gone.

Brad.

True: the tyme was in England whē the pope was away, but not all popery: as in king Henries dayes.

Yorke.

Latin seruice was appointed to be song and had in the Queere, where onely were Clerici, that is,* 1.25 such as vn∣derstode latin, the people sitting in the body of the Church praying theyr owne priuate prayers: and this may wel be yet seene by making of the Chauncell and Queere, so as y^e people could not come in, or heare them.

Brad.

Yea, but in Chrisostomes time, and also in the latin church in Saint Ieromes tyme,* 1.26 all the Church (sayth he) reboat. Amen. That is, aunswereth agayn mightely, Amen. Whereby we may see that the prayers were made so, that both the people heard them, and vnderstoode them.

Chic.

Ye are to blame to say that the Churche robbeth the people of the cup.

Bradford.

Well my Lorde, terme it as it please you: all men knowe that laytie hath none of it.

Chic.

In deede I would wish the Church would define a∣gayne, that they might haue it, for my part.

Brad.

If God make it free, who cā define to make it bond?

Yorke.

Well mayster Bradford, we leese our labour,* 1.27 for ye seeke to put away all thinges which are tolde you to your good: your Church no man can know.

Brad.

Yes, that ye may well.

Yorke.

I pray you whereby?

Brad.

Forsooth Chrisostome sayth:* 1.28 Tantummodo per Scrip∣turas, alonely by the Scriptures: and this speaketh he ve∣ry oftentimes, as ye well know.

Yorke.

In deede that is of Chrysostome •••• in opere imper∣fecto, whiche may be doubted of. The thing whereby the Church may be knowne best, is succession of Byshops.

Bradford.

No my Lorde: Lyra full well writeth vppon Mathew, that Ecclesia non consistit in hominibus ratione po∣testatis secularis aut Ecclesiasticae, sed in hominibus in quibus est notitia vera, & confessio fidei & veritatis, That is:* 1.29 The church consisteth not in men by reason either of secular or tempo∣rall power: but in men indued with true knowledge, and confession of fayth, and of veritie.

And in Hylarius tyme, you knowe he wryteth to Au∣rentius, that the Church did rather delitescere in cauer••••s, then eminere in primarijs sedibus, That is, was hidden ra∣ther in caues and holes, then did glister and shyne in thrones of preeminence.

Then came one of the seruauntes and tolde them that my Lord of Duresme taryed for them at Mayster Yorkes house: and this was after that they had taryed three hou∣res with Bradford. And after that their man was come, they put vp theyr writtten bookes of common places, and sayde that they lamented his case: they willed him to read ouer a booke, which did Doct. Crome good: & so wishyng hym good in woordes, they went their waye, and poore Bradford to his prison.

After this communication with the Bishops ended,* 1.30 within two dayes following came into the Counter two Spanish Friers to talke with maister Bradford, sent (as they sayd) by the Earle of Darby, Of whome the one was y^e kinges Confessor: y^e other was Alphonsus, who had be∣fore written a popish booke agaynst heresies, the effecte of which their reasoning here likewise followeth.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Talke b••••tweene Byshop••▪ Bradford.
• * 1.2

  〈1 paragraph〉〈1 paragraph〉
• * 1.3

  〈1 paragraph〉〈1 paragraph〉
• * 1.4

  〈1 paragraph〉〈1 paragraph〉
• * 1.5

  The true 〈…〉〈…〉 euery man hath not eyes to see it.
• * 1.6

  The ••ishops 〈◊〉〈◊〉 to an 〈…〉〈…〉.
• * 1.7

  〈1 paragraph〉〈1 paragraph〉
• * 1.8

  False surm••••e a∣gaynst Bradford.
• * 1.9

  Bradford im∣prisoned for tha••, for which he had the lawes on his side.
• * 1.10

  The presence of Christes body to the fayth of the worthy re∣ceauer.
• * 1.11

  Hiperbolicall phrase of Chri∣sostome.
• * 1.12

  Bradford ex∣communicated with the poore blind man. Iohn 9.
• * 1.13

  The Pope pro∣ued to be Anti∣christ by Scrip∣tur••▪
• * 1.14

  What B. Ton∣stall writeth of Transubstantia∣tion.
• * 1.15

  Note how these Bishops them∣selues do graunt, that the time was, when tran∣substantiation•• was not defined by the Church. Tonstall sayth it was more then 800: yeares after Christ.
• * 1.16

  M. Bradford hangeth not of Luther, Zuin∣glius, or Oe∣colampadius & yet he accomp∣teth them good men.
• * 1.17

  Communion of the Church consisteth in fayth, and not in visible ceremo∣nyes.

  Disagreing in rites breaketh no agreement in fayth. Ireneus.
• * 1.18

  Aug. contra E∣pi•••• fundament.
• * 1.19

  Consent of peo∣ple.

  Authority con∣firmed with mi∣racles: nouri∣shed with hope: encreased with charity: establi∣shed with anti¦quitye

  Succession of Priestes.

  The name Ca∣tholicke.
• * 1.20

  All this might be obiected a∣gaynst Christe & his Apostles. by the Scribes & Phariseys.
• * 1.21

  The Church commonly not glorious in this world, but poore and per¦secuted.
• * 1.22

  Consent of the Godly.
• * 1.23

  Succession from Peter.
• * 1.24

  Christes people may discerne the Church, though they iudge not the Church. The Church of of Rome swar∣ueth from the voyce of Christ, and wherein.
• * 1.25

  Latin s••••••uice de••••••ded.
• * 1.26

  Agayn•••• Latin se••••uice.
• * 1.27

  The peo•••••• robbed 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the cup••••
• * 1.28

  The 〈◊〉〈◊〉 knowen 〈◊〉〈◊〉 by the Scriptur•••• Chrisost•••••• oper. imp••••••fect. Lyra sup. Math.
• * 1.29

  Hilarius Au••ent••••••
• * 1.30

  The com∣ming of 2. Spanish fr••••er•• to M. Bradford.