The due right of presbyteries, or, A peaceable plea for the government of the Church of Scotland ... by Samuel Rutherfurd ...
Rutherford, Samuel, 1600?-1661.
Page  175

CHAP. 8. SECT. 8.

Of Election of Officers.

HEre the Author teaches, that Election of Officers belongeth to the Church whose officers they are. 2. That the Church of*believers, being destitute of all officers, may ordaine their own of∣ficers and Presbyters, by imposition of hands, in respect that the power of the keys is given to the Church of believers, Mar. 18.

Answ. Election of Officers (no doubt) belongeth to the whole Church, not in the meaning of our Brethren; but that this may be cleared, whether a Church without officers, may or∣daine Elders, there be diverse other questions here to be agita∣ted; as 1.

Whether the Church be before the Ministery, or the Ministery before the Churches.

1. Dist. There is an ordinary, and an extraordinary Ministery.

2. There is a mysticall Church of believers, and a ministeriall Church of Pastors and flock.

3. A Church may be so called by anticipation, as Hos. 12. Jacob served for a wise; or formally, because it is constituted in its whole being.

4. A Ministery is a Ministery to these, who are not as yet professors, but only potentially members of the Church.

1. Concl. There is a Church of believers sometime before there be a ministeriall Church. 1. Because a company of be∣lievers is a mysticall Church, for which Christ died, Eph. 5. 25. And such there may be before there be a setled Ministery. As there is a house, before there be a Candlestick, because conversi∣on may be by private meanes, as by reading and conference; yea a woman hath carried the Gospell to a Land, before there was a Ministery in it. 2. Adam was first and Evah by order of ature a Church created of God, before there was a Ministery; So Adams Ministery is founded upon a nature created according to Gods Image.

2. Concl. A publick ordinary Ministery is before a Church of believers. Eph. 4. 11. Pastors, Teachers, and a Ministery, are given Page  176 to the inbringing and gathering of the Church; 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. That is, edifying, and not onely for confirming, but for the converting of the Body of Christ. Nor is Robinsona and his fellowes here to be heard, that the word of re∣storing is the same which is used, Gal. 6. 1. and so nothing is meant but repairing of Christians already converted, not the converting of these who are yet unconverted. But I Answer 1. The Word of restor∣ing doth no more import that they were converted before, then the word of renewing, Eph. 4. 23. Rom. 12. 2. and the word of awaking from sleepe of sinners, Ep. 5. 14. doth import that these were new Creatures before, and that they had the life of God, before they be said to be renewed againe and made new, and awaked out of their sleepe. And this Pelagian and popish ex∣position, is a faire way to elude all the places for the power of grace; and to helpe Papists and Arminian. 2. By this there is, 1. no necessity of a publick Ministery, for the conversion of Soules to Christ, nor is a Ministery and Pastors, and Teach∣ers given by Jesus Christ, with intention, to open the eyes of the blind, and to convert soules to God. All the ordinary wayes of conversion of Soules, is by the preaching of men out of office, and destitute of all calling of the Church to preach, which is a wonder. 3. The Fathers begetting, by order of nature, are be∣fore the children; the pastors are Fathers, the seede before the plant or birth; the word preached, Rom. 10. 14. is the immor∣tall seed of the new birth, 1 Pet. 1. 23. The Ministery and or∣dinary use thereof, is given to the pastors as to Christs Ambas∣sadours, 2 Cor. 5. 18. 20. Therefore the Ministery is before the Church of believers, though wee will not tie the Lord to these only: yet is this his ordinary established way: but more of this hereafter.

Robinson objecteth bThe Apostles and brethren were a Church of God, Acts 2. 25. when as yet no Pastors or Teachers were ap∣poynted in it. How then are the Ministers spoken of Eph. 4. 11. before the Church out of which they were taken? yea the office of pastors was not heard of in the Church then. Ans. 1. It is cleare there were in that meeting, eleven Apostles called to be pastors; Mat. 10. 1, 2, 3. sent of God, Mat 29. 19 inspired or the Holy Ghost to open and shut Heaven, Ioh. 20. 21, 22. Before Christs Page  177 ascension; and this meeting was after his ascension, Acts. 1. 15. and here was a governing Church, and without the Apostles, an Apostle could not be chosen and called by men. And an instance of such a calling is not in Gods Word. 2. He objecteth. The Apostles themselves, were first Christians and members of the Church, before they were Ministers.

Answ. Men may be a Church of Christians, and a mysticall Church before they have a Ministery, but they are not a gover∣ning Church, having the power of the keyes, so long as they want officers and stewards, who only have warrant ordinary of Christ to use the keys.

3. He objecteth, God 1 Cor. 12. 28. hath set officers in the Church; Ergo, the Church is before the Officers, as the setting of a Candle in a Candlestick. presupposeth a Candlestick. The Church is the candlestick. Rev. 1. The officers candles, lights, stars

Answ. God hath put and breathed in man a living soule. Ergo, he is a living man, before the soule be breathed in him: friend your logick is naught. The Church is the Candlestick, not simply without Candles and Lampes: the Church ministeri∣all is the Candlestick, and the Ministers the Candles set in the Church ministeriall, as Eyes and Eares are seated, and all the seales are seated in a living man; Ergo, he is a living man be∣fore the senses be seated in him, it followeth in no sort. Be∣cause by the candles seating in the Church, the Church becom∣meth a ministeriall and governing Church: It is as you would say the Lord giveth the wife to the husband; Ergo. He is an hus∣band before God give him the wife.

4. He objecteth. That it is senseles, that a Minister may be sent as a Minister, to the hidden number not yet called out, which are also his stck potentially, not actually; as Mr. Bernard saith, because it is the property of a good shepheard, to call his own sheep by name. Ioh. 20. also it is a logicall error, that a man may have a actuall relati∣on to a stock potentially, it is as if a man were a husband because he may have a wife.

But I answer; he not onely may be, but is a pastor to these that are but potentially members to the invisible Church, though unconverted, except you say, a man hath no relation as a pastor to the flock, to all and every one of a thousand soules, which Page  178 are his flock, except they bee all truly converted, and members of the invisible Church, which if you say, I can refute it easily as an Anabaptisticall falsehood; for if they all professe the truth, and chuse him for their pastor, hee is their pastor, but they are a saved flock potentially, though actually a visible flock ha∣ving actuall relation to him, as to their pastor.

But. 2. That a good minister know all his flock by name, be re∣quisite, and is spoken of Christ▪ Ioh. 10. in relation to the whole Catholick Church, as is expounded v. 14. yet will it not follow, he is not a pastor nor not a good pastor, who knoweth not all his flock at all times. 3. A man is indeed not properly a pastor, and a Church officer to Indians, who neither are called nor pro∣fesse the truth, if he preach to them, though he have not relation to such, as to a Christian flock, yet he hath a relation of a pastor to them in that case.

Yea I desire our brethren to satisfie me in this even according to their grounds. A number of Christians is a Church mysticall, but they are not a Church ministeriall, while they be conjoyned cove∣nant-wayes, and use the keyes in such acts of Church union: Ergo, They are not a Church ministeriall before they bee a Church governing: which is all wee say; for then they should be a body seeing and hearing, before they be a body seeing and hearing.

Quest. 2. VVhether there be any Church in the Scripture ha∣ving power of the keys, yet wanting all Church-Officers?

The Question is neere to the former, yet needfull in this mat∣ter to be discussed. The Question is not, if the name Church be given to a company of Christians, without relation to their Officers, for the word 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 is given to a civill meeting. The Hebrews call, sometimes, any meeting of people a Church: as 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 doth sometime signifie, Gen. 49. 6. my soule come not thou〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉to their assembly. So the Rabbines use 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 for a place, where the Congregation meeteth. So the Chal∣daick and Arabick use 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, for the place where the wor∣shippers met, from 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉Caldaice & Syriace, Adoravit, be∣cause it is a place of meeting for adoration; and 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 thè Con∣gregation from the Arabick 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉congregavit. Yet speaking of a governing and orderly constituted Church, you shall never Page  179 finde, such a Church having the name of a Church, but such a company as hath officers, and is spoken of as a house and family, where there are stewards, keys, doores, bread and other things no∣ting a City-incorporation.

1. Because the keys are given to stewards, who, by▪ office, beare the keys; for taking in and casting out, by power of censures, is proper to an ordered City, where there are governors, and people governed. 2. Because wee reade not that the keyes are given to a company of single believers, out of office. 3. Wee never finde in the word of God, any practice, or precept, that a single company did use the keyes, or can use them, wanting all Officers.

Heare what Robinson objecteth, that he may establish a po∣pular government. aTwo or three making Peters confession, Mat. 16. are a Church. But two or three may make this confession without officers; Ergo, The proposition is cleare, by the promise made to build the Church upon the Rock of Peters confession.

Answ. 1. I deny the proposition, and it is not proved: two or three making Peters confession are not the Church ministe∣riall, to which Christ gave the keyes; for the keys include pastorall power to preach and baptize, which Separatists b deny to two or three wanting officers, they may be a mysti∣call Church or a part of the redeemed Church, Eph. 3. 25. 26. nor doth Christ promise to build the ministeriall Church pro∣perly on the rock, but only the Church of believers, for whom he gave the keyes, but to whom he gave no keyes. 2. This argu∣ment will hurt our brethren: for two or three not entred in Church-state, nor in Courch-Covenant, without Church-state, as well, as without officers, may, and doe often make Pe∣ters confession; yet are they not for that a governing Church, because they may not happily as yet bee united covenant-wayes.

2. He objecteth, If the Apostles appoint Elders in every Church. Acts 14. 23. If God se in the Church Apostles, Prophets, Teach∣ers, 1 Cor 12. 28. Then there is a Church before Officers, A∣postles, Prophets: a Major presupposeth there was a City, be∣fore he was Major, a Steward presupposeth a family; is not the Eldership an ordinance of the Church, and called the Elders of thePage  180 Church? The Church is not an ordinance of the Elders, or given •• the Elders.

Ans. Job. 10. 20. God hath granted to Iob life; Ergo, Iob was a living man before God had given him life. The Lord breathed in man the breath of life; Ergo, he was a breathing and a living man, before God breathed that life in him. God formed man of the dust, Gen. 2. 7. Ergo, hee was a man before God formed him. All these are as good consequences. So Iac•• served for a wife, Hos. 12. 12. Ergo, she was his wife before hee served for her; it followeth not.

2. This proveth not there is a governing Church without Of∣ficers, but the contrary, because for that end doth the Lord appoint Elders in every Church, and a ruler in a City, a King in a Kingdome, to governe them, to feed the flock, Acts 20. 28. Ergo, before there be Officers in a Church, there is no govern∣ment in it. And so it is not a governing Church; nor is a City a governing incorporation without a Major or some other Ru∣lers, nor a Kingdome a monarchicall state without a King. And so the Elders, are the Churches Elders, as life is the forme of a living man. And this argument is much against them God (say our Brethren) hath appoynted a Church-covenant, in his Church, will it follow: Ergo, there is a Church, before a Church-covenant; They cannot say this.

3. These with whom (sayth Robinson) God hath made a cove∣nant,*to be their God, and to have them his people, and to dwell it them as his Temple, which have right to the promises of Christ and his presence, are his Church. But a company of believers with∣out Officers are such; Ergo, The proposition is Scripture, Gen. 17. 17. Levi. 26. 11, 12. Mat. 18. 17. The assumption is true, because they may believe, separate themselves from the world, come out of Ba∣bel without Officers, except you say they must go to Rome, to Jerusa∣lem, and beyond sea, to seeke a Church.

Answ. The major is false; for God is in covenant with six believers before they sweare a Church-covenant, and so all the promises are made to them, and yet by your grant, they are not a Church. Yea all these agree to the invisible Church, and every single member thereof. 2. Without officers, believers may not separate themselves from the world, and come out of Babel,Page  181 by a positive and authoritative separation, to erect a new Church without pastors, or in an ordinary way; though as Christians they may separate from Rome, negatively and touch no uncleane things. 3. We send none to Ierusalem and Babylon to seeke a Church yet, but except we fall unto the Tenets of Ana∣baptists, Socinians and Arminians: wee must send farther then to every house, where three believers are, to seeke such as have war∣rant from Christ to adminstrate the seales of grace, except you in casting downe Babel, build Iericho, and raise up a Tower of confusion, and evert the ministeriall order that Christ hath ap∣poynted in his Church.

4. Then how often (saith he) the Officers die, so oft the Church dieth also; to remove the candlestick is to dischurch the assembly; but the death of Officers (which may be in a great persecution) is never said to be a dischurching of an assembly. And all communion of Saints shall perish, when the Officers are removed; for Baptisme is without the visible Church; Eph. 4.

Answ. 1. When the shepheards are removed, the Tents cannot be called the Shepheards Tents, and persecution often doth de∣face the visible face of a Ministeriall Church, and to remove the candlestick is to remove the ministery, as to take away eyes, and eares and hands from the body, is to hurt the integrity of it, and make it lame. 2. All communion Ministeriall whereby we are a body visible, 1 Cor. 10. 16. eating one bread, may well be loosed, when pastors are removed, whose onely it is, by your owne confession, to administrate the Sacraments, except you allow all to administrate the Lords Supper, and women to Baptise; nor is there a communion in a family betwixt husband and wife, if you remove husband and wife out of the family, except, you meane a communion by way of charity, to rebuke, exhort, comfort one another, which communion is betwixt two in∣dependent congregations, who are not in Church-state one to another: but if you meane in Church-communion, take heed that the keys of every christian family, and the keys of the Kingdome of Heaven be not by this, made all one.

Also it is (saith he) unequall dealing to make a prophane multi∣tude,*under a diocesian prelate a Church, and to deny, that a com∣pany of faithfull believers is a Church. 2. God hath not tied hisPage  182power or presence to any order, or office of the world, but accepteth of them that feare him, and worke Righteousnes. 3. A power to en∣joy the officers is seated in the body, as an essentiall property. 4. Th Lord calleth the body of the Saints the Church, excluding the Elders Acts 20. 17. 28. 1 Tim. 3. 15. because the Church is essentially in the saints, as the matter and subject formed by the covenant, unto the which the Officers are but adjuncts, not making for the being, but for the welbeing of the Church, and so the furtherance of their faith and their service.

Answ. A profane multitude under a diocesian prelate, is not a Church mysticall of redemed ones, as a company of Believers are, but professing the truth and consisting of a flock of called Officers, they may wel be a Ministeriall Church, which foure Be∣lievers cannot be. It is true God hath not tied his power and pre∣sence to any order or office, as Anabaptists say: and so speaketh the Catech. of Raccoviaa and Smalciusb and Nicolaidesc say, there is no necessity of a Ministery, after that the Evangel i preached by the Apostles and confirmed by miracles: and that a Ministery is onely profitable ad benè esse, and not necessary; The Arminians teach so, the dRemonstrantes, praedicationem verbi ad id simplicitèr necessariam negant: quid clarius? So eEips∣copius, pastoris actio non tam necessaria est quam utilis ad edifica∣tionem, postquam Scriptura omnibus & singulis legenda data est, ut ex ca suopte Marte discat quisque quantum satis est. But Paul maketh it in the ordinary way, necessary for salvation to be∣lieve, *to call on the Name of the Lord, and to heare a Prophet sent; and the presence and power of God in the Seales of Righte∣ousnes, is tyed to lawfull Pastors, who onely can administrate those Seales, Mat. 28. 19. as to meanes ordained of God, not as if God could not save without them, and accept the righteous doers without them, but see how this man would beare us in hand, that the comfort of pastorall preaching and the Sacra∣ments cannot be tyed to called Ministers, exccept we call God an accepter of persons, which is denied, Acts 10? I believed Teach∣ers and Doctors and Elders, had beene the Eyes, Eares and Hands, and so integrall parts of the visible Church, as Christ is the head of the catholick church. And this man maketh inte∣grall parts adjunctes of the church, thereby declaring Ministers Page  183 may be well wanted, and that they are passements ad bene esse, and things of order. Never did Anabaptists speake louder against the Ordinances of Christ; and Socinians and Armini∣ans are obliged to him. Thirdly, the beleevers have right to the Officers, and this right is an essentiall property of the Church; then also, because beleevers have right to the Keys, the Keyes are onely an adjunct of the visible Church, which our brethren must deny. 4. Acts 20. 17. 1 Tim. 3. 15. The Church excluding the Offi∣cers is (saith Robinson) called the Church, as the Elders of the Church, and Timothy was to behave himselfe well in the Church of God. This is answered; they are first a mysticall Church, not a governing Church. Secondly, a man is called a man excluding his soule, (if your soule were in my soules stead.) Therefore a man is a thing living, and a reasonable man without his soule: what vani∣ty is here! Fifthly, if the Church-Covenant be the essentiall forme of the Church, it is as accider tall to the well being of be∣leevers, as Officers are; for they are the light of the world, the salt of the earth, which is more necessary then a Church-Covenant.

And Robinson saith a further, Two or three have received Christ, and his power and right to all the meanes of grace, and Christ and his power are not divided; also the wife hath immediate right to her husbands person and goods for her use.

Answ. Two or three (yea one beleever) and these not en∣tred in Church-state, but beleeving in Christ, have received Christ and his power in all Christian priviledges due to that state: True; They have received Christ and his power in all mi∣nisteriall and Church-priviledges, it is false; nor can our bre∣thren admit of this by their grounds: for then should they have right in their owne person to preach pastorally, and administrate the Sacraments; if Christ and the pastorall power to such acts cannot be divided, and if they have as immediate right to use the keys in pastorall acts as the wife hath to the husband and goods.

Also (saith he) bOf the Churches of the Gentiles, some were converted to God by Apostles, others by private Christians, Acts 8. 12. and 10. 36, 44, 47, 48. and 11. 19, 20, 21. and 13. 1, 12, 48. and 14. 1, 7. Can we in reason thinks, during the Apostles absence, that the Churches never assembled together for edification in praying,Page  184prophesying, and other ordinances? were not all they converts, who desired to be admitted to their fellowship? Had they not use of ex∣communication? The Apostles came but occasionally to the Churches, where they appointed Elders, Acts 14. 25. Why did Paul leave Ti∣tus at Crete, save onely that men of gifts might be trained up in pro∣phesying?

Answ. All here said is conjecturall, he cannot give us an in∣stance of a Church exercising Church-power, and destitute of Officers, onely he saith, Can we conceive that in the Apostles ab∣sence there was no Church meetings for edification? But were there no Elders and Officers in the Apostolike Church, but onely A∣postles? I thinke there have beene Pastors, and when the Apo∣stles first left the planted Churches, can we conceive that they left new converted flockes without Pastors? and if without Officers they met for prophecying, can wee conceive that they wanted the Seales of the Covenant? certainly, Sacraments with∣out Officers are no rules for us to follow. Secondly, of conversion by private persons, I purpose to speake hereafter; if they prea∣ched, it is not ordinary, nor a rule to us. Thirdly, at Crete there have beene Preachers, but of government without them I see nothing; since Elders Timothy and Titus are limitted in recei∣ving accusation: against Elders, and are forbidden to lay hands suddenly on any man; I see not how the people without Offi∣cers did this. It is good, that this Church that they give us, is all builded upon conjectures, and an unwritten Church is an un∣written tradition. If the Apostles appointed Elders in the Church for this end, to governe; wee gather the contrary of your collections. Ergo, there was no government in the Churches before there were governours, for the end could not be existing in Gods wisdome without the meanes; that watch∣men should goe about the walls before the City bee walled, and discipline erected, I cannot conceive: without Officers, the ordinary disciplinators, the City of God can be no governing City.

It is (saith he) strange where multitudes are converted; and that where neither Apostles nor Officers were present, that there were no Churches here; it is grosse to say. That in the Apostles times nothing was begun but by them.

Page  185A. There was conversion of multitudes to the Lord; Ergo, there was a Church-Covenant in stating them all in Church-State; you cannot say it your selves. Secondly, it is not grosse, but Apo∣stolike, that all new Acts of government should take their begin∣ning from the Apostles, as the chusing of Matthias, Acts 1. the ordaining of Deacons, Acts 6. the preaching to the Gen∣tiles, Acts 10. had their beginning from the Apostles, who foun∣ded and planted Churches.

3. Quest. Whether or not ordination of Elders may be by the Church of beleevers wanting all Elders or Officers.

Here these particulars must be discussed; first, from whence is ordination of Elders from Elders or from the people. Secondly, if ele∣ction by the people be all that is requisite in a lawfull calling. Thirdly, the argument from the calling of our reformers must be discussed.

For the first, observe the following considerations:

First, A succession in the Church is necessary ordinarily; extraor∣dinarily, and in cases of necessity it may be wanting. Secondly, we deny the popish succession to be a note of the Church, nor doe we in any sort contend for it. First, because a right succession must be a successi∣on to truth of Doctrine, not personall or totall to the chaire and naked office. So aTertullian, and falshood may succeed to truth, sicknesse to health, asbNazianzen. Yea, as cOccam saith, Laymen and Teachers extraordinarily raised up, may succeed to he∣reticall Pastors.

Secondly, there is succession to the errors of preceding teachers, either materiall without pertinacie, holding what they hold; or formall to the same errors, with hatred of the truth and perti∣nacie; the latter we reject, the former may be in lawfully called Pastors. See what Bezad saith of this. Neither will we here go from true succession, whereas eIreneus saith, men, Cum Episco∣patus successione charisma veritatis acceperunt. And as fAugu∣stine, when they doe prove themselves to be the Church onely by Scriptures, non nisi caenonic is libris. Thirdly, we deny not but Asia, Africa, Egypt, and a great part of Europe heard not a word of Christ for a long time, as Binniusg observeth in the h La∣eran Councell. And succession was interrupted many ages in the world, saith iProsper and kAugustine. Nor can lBel∣larmine deny it. 3. We desire that more may be seene of this also Page  186 in m〈◊〉, nCyprian,oAugustine. And a great Iesuit pSuariz in words passeth from this note. The Epistles of Aacletus to all ingenious men, except to such as Stapleton, are counterfeit; and the Greeke Church hath as much of ths as the Roman, and more. Antiochia, Alexandria, and Constantinople, may say more for it also.

3 Distinct. It is one thing to receive ordination from a P••lat lawfully and another thing to receive lawfull ordination. The for∣mer w deny; Ministers sine who receive ordination from a Pr∣late, as they sinne, who receive baptisme from the Romish Church; yet is the ordination lawfull and valid, because Prelacy, though diffe∣rent in nature from the office of a true Pastor, is consistent in the same subject with the Pastors office.

4. Distinct. Though election by the people may make a minister in some cases, yet it is not the essentiall cause of a called Pastor, as a Rose caused to grow in winter by art is of that same nature with aRse produced by nature in summer, though the manner of production be different. So are they both true Pastors, those who have no call ba the peoples election, and those who have ordination by Pastors.

5. Distinct. The substance and essence of ordination (as we sh•• after heare) consisteth in the appointing of such for the holy ministery by persons in office. All the corrupt rites added to this by Pa∣pists, take not away the essence and nature of ordination. For the Greeke Church, even this day at Rome, receiveth ordination by imposition of hands, & not by the reaching a cup and a plat∣ter, and that with the Popes good will. Whereas the LatiChurch have far other Ceremonies following the decree of E∣ginius the fourth, and the common way of Rome, approved by qInnocentius the third, and yet they grant both wayes of or∣dinations lawfull; because as rBellarmine,sUasq••tJoan. de Lugo the Popes Professor this day at Rome saith, These are but accidents of ordination; and because (say they) Christ ordained that this Sacrament should be given by some materiall signe, but whether by imposition of hands, or other∣wise, he hath not determined in individuo (particularly:) see for this, Peter Arcudius his reconciliation of the Easterne and VVe∣erne Churchu in the Councell of Florence.x The Greek Church is not blamed, though imposition of hands be com∣manded Page  187 in b the Councell or Carthage. See that variations may be in a Sacrament, and yet such as make not the Sacra∣ment invalid, in cSotusdSuarez,eVasquez,fIoan. de Lugo,gScotus. But since hRobinson granteth, that the Baptisme of the Romish Church is not to be repeated, ordinati∣on of Pastors is of that same nature, and must stand valid also.

Hence our first conclusion. In cases of necessity, election by the people onely may stand for ordination, where there be no Pa∣stors at all. This is proved before by us; i first, because God is not necessarily tied to succession of Pastors. Secondly, be∣cause where men are gifted for the worke of the ministery, and there be no Pastors to be had, the giving of the holy Ghost is a signe of a calling of God, who is not wanting to his owne gra∣cious intention, though ordinary meanes faile. And see for this that learned Voetiusk Nor do we thinke that we are in this straited, as the Papist Ianseniusl in that place saith, That wee must wait for an immediate calling from Heaven, as also mRo∣binson saith.

2. Conclus. Thence may well be deduced that they are law∣full Pastors, and need not a calling revealed, who, in cases of ex∣traordinary necessity, are onely chosen by the people, and not ordained by Pastors; and that Pastors ordained by Pastors, as such, are Pastors of the same nature; as Matthias called by the Church, and Paul immediately called from Heaven, had one and the same office by nature.

3. Conclus, The established and setled order of calling of Pa∣stors, is by succession of Pastors to Pastors, and Elders by El∣ders, 1 Tim. 5. 22. Lay hands suddenly on no man. 2 Tim. 4. 14. Neglect not the gift which was given to thee by prophcie, with the laying on of the hands of the Elders. Secondly, the practice of the Apostles is our safe rule, because at all ordination of Church∣officers the Apostles and Pastors were actors and ordainers, as Acts 1. 15, 16. Acts 6. 2. 3. Acts. 14. 23. 1 Cor. 3. 6. Tit. 1. 5. and this aRobinson granteth, because the charge of all the Churches did lie on the Apostles. As also before the Law, the people did not ordaine the Priest hood, but God ordained the first borne by succession to be teachers and priests;b and after he chose the Tribe of Levi, without consent of the people, Page  188 though the Princes and heads of Tribes said hands upon them. And also God of sundry other Tribes raised up Prophets, and did immediately call them, they had onely of the people not the calling, bu••t the least the silent approbation of the faithfull amongst the people. Christ comming in the flesh chose twelve Apostles not knowing either the governing Church or the peo∣ple; at length, when the Apostles established a Church-govern∣ment, and a Pastor to a certaine flocke, they ordained that the chsing of the man should be with consen of the people, and begn this in Mathias, then the seven Deacons, then Acts 14. 23. Elders were chosen by lasting up of the peoples hands. But that persons were ordained Pastors and sanctified, and set apart for the worke of the ministery, by the authority of the sole multi∣titude, and that without all Officers, we never read. And the lay∣ing on of the hands we see not in the New Testament; we shall be dsious to be informed of this by our deare brethren, and in∣treat them in the feare of the Lord to consider of an unwritten calling of a Ministery. Thirdly, if ordination of Pastors bee laid downe in the Apostolike Canons to Officers, as Officers, then is not this a charge that doth agree to the people, especi∣ally wanting Officers. But the former is true; Ergo, so is the latter. I prove the proposition: What is charged upon Offi∣cers as Officers cannot be the charge of the people, because the people are not Officers. I prove the assumption, because 2 Tim. 2. 1, 2. To commit to faithfull men the things of the Gospell, which Timothy heard Paul preach, is a charge laid on Timothy in the very tearms, that he is vers. 4. not to intangle himselfe with the affairs of this life, but to be separated for preaching the Gospell, from all worldly imployment; as a Souldier sworne to hi Cap∣taine, can attend no other calling, vers. 5. and as he is to put other Pastors in minde of these things, and to charge them that they strite not about words; and as he is to be an approved workman, divi∣ding the word aright, vers. 14. 15. But these are laid upon Timo∣thy as a Pastor. So 1 Tim. 5. as he sheweth the honour and re∣ward due to Elders, so doth he charge Timothy not to heare ac∣cusations of Elders, but upon two or three witnesses testimony, which is the part of Church-Iudges; even as hee is to rebuke sinne publikely, that others may feare, vers. 19, 20. So according Page  189 to that same office, must imposition of hands be conserred upon Pastors advisedly, vers. 22. As the Apostle commandeth all be∣leevers to lay hands suddenly on no man. Also Paul would have said, I left a Church of beleevers at Crete to appoint El∣ders in every City; if it be the Churches part, even though de∣stitute of Elders to appoint Elders over themselves, but by what poer Titus was to rebuke sharpely the Cretians, that they may be found in the saith, by that power was he left at Crete to appoint Elders in every City; but this is an officiall power, Titus 1. 13. due to Bishops, as a part of their qualification, vers. 9.

4. Argu. The speciall reason against ordination of Elders, by Elders onely, is weake; and that is, a succession of Pastors must be granted ever since the Apostles times, which is (say ourbrethren) Popish. This reason is weak, because a succession of Elders and Pastors, such as we require, is no more popish then a succession of visible beleevers; and visible Churches ordain∣ing Pastors, is popish: but our brethren maintaine a succession of beleevers and visible prosessors since the Apostles daye. Se∣condly, we deny the necessity of a succession perpetuall, which papists hold. Thirdly, we maintaine onely a succession to the true and Apostolike Doctrine: papists hold a visible Cathedrall succession to the chaire of Rome, and titular office of Peter.

4. Quest. Whether or not our brethren doe prove that the Church of believers have power to ordaine Pastors?

In answering our brethrens reasons; I first returne to our Au∣thor; secondly, I obviate what our brethren say in the answer to a the Questions sent from old England; and thirdly, shall answer Robinsons arguments.

Our b Author saith, Beleevers have power to lay hands on their Officers, because to them Christ gave the keyes; that is, the mi∣nisteriall power of binding and loosing, Matth. 16. 16, 17, 18. and Acts 1. The voices of the people went as farre as any humane suffra∣ges could goe, of an hundred and twenty they chose two. And Acts 14. 23. The Apostles ordained Elders by the lifting up of the hands of the people. Acts 6. They are directed to looke out and chuse seven men to be Deacons. And the ancient Church did so from Cyprians words,cVlebs vel maxime potestatem habet, vel digns sacerdo∣tes eligendi, vel indignos recusandi.

Page  190Answ. The places Math. 16. and 18. give, to some power mi∣nisteriall to bind and loose, open and shue, by preaching the Gos∣pell, and administring the Sacraments, as to stewards the Keyes of an house are given: but this power is given to Elders oely, by evidence of the place, and exposition of all Divines. 2. If the ministeriall power and the warrantable exercise thereof, be given to all; then are all Ministers; for the faculty and exercise doth denominate the subject and agent; but that is false by d Scripture. 2. That all the hundred and twenty did ordainMatthias an Apostle, Act. 1. is not said, they did nominate and present him. 2. they did choose him. But authoritative separa∣tion for the Office was Christs and his Apostles worke. 3. That women, and Mary the mother of Iesus, v. 14. being there, had voice, and exercised authority in ordaining an Apostle cannot be orderly. Yea the Apostles names are se downe, and these words, V. 23. and they appointed two, are relative to v. 17. these words, For he was numbred with us the Apostles, and to these V. 21. Where∣fore of these men which have companied with us, &c. and to these v. 22. must one be ordained to be witnesse with us of his resurrestion, and they appointed two, that is, the Apostles; and the rest are set downe as witnesses, v. 14. These continued, that is the Apostles, with the women, and Mary the mother of Iesus, &c. The women and others were onely consenters. 3. Here is no probation, that onely a company of believers wanting Pastors are ordainers of Matthias to the Apostleship, and this is the question. 4. The place Act. 14. 23. proveth that Elders appoint or ordaine Elder. with consent, or lifting up of the hands of the people, which is our very doctrine. 5. Act. 6▪ The multitude are directed to choose out seven men, as being best acquainted with them. Yet if Nicholas, the sect master of the fleshly Nicolaitans was one of them; it is likely they were not satisfied in conscience of the regeneration of Nicholas, by hearing his spirituall conference and his gift of praying, which is your way of trying Church-mem∣bers. But 2. they looke out seven men. 2. They choose the. But v. 6. The Apostles prayed, and laid their hands on them (which we call ordination) and not the multitude. 6. Cyprian give•• election of Priests to the multitude, but neither Cyprian, nor any of the Fathers give ordination to them.

Page  191 Author Sect. 7. If the people have power to elect a King, they have power to appoint one is their name to put the crown on his head. Ergo, if beleevers elect their Officers they may by themselves or some others lay hands on them and ordaine them.

Ans. The case is not alike, the power of electing a King is naturall, for Ants and Locusts have it, Prov 30 25, 16, 27. There∣fore a civill Society may choose and ordaine a King. The power of choosing Officers is 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, a supernaturall gift. And because God giveth to people one supernaturall gift, it is not consequent that he should give them another, also beside ordination is ano∣ther thing, then coronation of a King. Presbyters in the Word have alwaies performed ordination. *

Neither will it hence follow (saith the Authour) as some object*that because the Church of believers neither make the Office nor authority of Pastors, that both are immediately from Christ, and that therefore the beleevers may not lay hands upon the Officers; nor doth it follow, because they receive ordination from the Church, that therefore they should execute their Office in the Churches name; or that they should be more or lesse diligent at the Churches appointment, or that the Church of beleevers have a Lordly power over them, or that the Elders must receive their commission from the Church, as an Ambassadour doth from the Prince who sent him, or that the Church in the defect of Officers may performe all duties proper to Of∣ficers, as to administer the Sacraments. For 1. most of the objections doe strike as much against imposition of hands by Bishops and Pres∣byters. 2. Though Officers receive the application of their office and powerly the Church, yet not from the Church; and if from the Church, yet not from her by any Lordly power and dominion, but onely ministerially as from instruments under Christ, so that they cannot choose or ordaine whom they please, but onely him whom they see the Lord hath fitted and prepared for them; nor can they pre∣scribe limits to his Office, nor give him his Embassage, but onely a charge to looke to the Ministery that he hath received of the Lord.

Ans. 1. I know none of ours who use such an Argument, that because a Pasters or Elders Office is from Christ, that therefore the Church cannot ordaine him. For it should prove that the Presby∣terie cannot ordaine him a Pastor, because his Office is from Page  192 Christ and not from the Presbyterie. It would prove also, that because the Office of a Judge is from God, that the free States of a Kingdome could not ordaine one to be their King; or that the King could not depute Judges under him, because the Office of a King and Judge is from God, and not from men.

2. If Elders have their Ordination to that heavenly Charge from the people, as from the first principall and onely subject of all ministeriall power, I see not how it doth not follow, that Elders are the servants of the Church in that respect; and that though it doth not follow, that they come out in the name of the Church, but in the name of Christ, whose Ambassadours they are, yet it proveth well that they are inferiour to the Church of be∣leevers. For 1. though the power of the Keys given to belee∣vers in relation to Christ be ministeriall, yet in relation to the Officers whom the Church sendeth, it is more then ministeriail, at lest it is very Lordlike. For as much of this ministeriall po∣wer is committed to the Church of possibly twenty or forty be∣leevers, as to the Mistresse, Lady, Spouse, and independent Queen, and highest dispencer of all ministeriall power; and the Elders, though Ambassadours of Christ, are but meere accidents or or∣naments of the Church, necessary ad benè esse onely, and lyable to exauthoration at the Churches pleasure; yea, every way the Officers in jurisdiction are inferiour to the Church of beleevers, by your grounds, and not over the people of the Lord. For if the Church of believers, as they are such, be the most supreame go∣verning Church, then the Officers, as Officers, have no power of government at all, but onely so farre as they are beleevers; now if they be not believers (as it falleth out very often) then have they no power of the Keyes at all, and what they doe, they doe it meerely as the Churches servants, to whom the Keyes are not given marriage-waies, or by right of redemption in Christs blood: yea, Officers as they are such, are neither the Spouse, not redeemed Church, yea nor any part, or members of the redee∣med Church. 2. The Church of believers are the od, the Of∣ficers meanes leading to the end, and ordained to gather the Saints; if therefore, as the end, they shall authoritatively send Officers, they should call and ordaine Officers as the States of a Kingdome, with more then a power ministeriall; Yea with a Page  193 Kingly power, for all authority should be both formally and eminently in them, as all Regall or Aristocraticall power is in the States of a Kingdom, as in the fountaine.

But neither doe we bring this argument to prove a simple Dominion of the Church of believers over the Officers, or a power of regulating, limiting, and ordering the Ambassage of Officers, as King and State lay bands upon their Ambassa∣dours; but we bring it to prove that this doctrine degradeth the Officers from all power of government above the believers, and putteth them in a state of ministeriall authority under these, above whom Jesus Christ hath placed them, contrary to a Scripture.

3. The Authour saith, believers may not administer the Sacra∣ments in the defect of Pastors, because that, by appointment of Christ, belongeth onely to such as by Office are called to preach the Gospell, Math. 28. 29. which is indeed well said; but I desire to be satis∣fied in these. 1. These places Math. 28. 29. Mar. 16. 14, 15. Luke 24. 28. being all one with Math. 16. 17. and Joh. 20. 21, 22, 23. The Keyes of the Kingdome are given to Church-officers be∣cause of their Office. So the Text is cleare, and so the ancients have taught, as Tertullian, Irenaeus, Origen, Cyrill. Theophylact. Oecumnius▪ Clemens Alexandrin▪ Iustin Martyr, Chrysost. August. Hilarius, Ambrose, Basil. Epiphanius, Ierome, Eusebius, Cyprian, Damascen, Beda, Anselme, Bernard. So our Divines, Calvin, Luther, Beza, Martyr, Iunius, Bullinger, Gualtr, Daneus, Ti∣enus, Bucanus, Trelcatius, Piscator, Pareus, Tossanus, Polanus, Decolampadius, Bucer, Hipperius, Viret, Zuinglius, Fennerus, Whittakerus, Feildus, Reynoldus, Anto. Wallaeus, Profess. Leydens. Magdeburgersis, Melanthon, Chemnitius, Hemingius, Aretius. Then the Keyes be given to Church-officers, because they are Officers, and Stewards of the Kingdome. And you will have the Keyes to be given to believers as believers, and as the Spouse of Christ. Now Elders and believers may be opposed, as believers and no believers, as the Church of the redeemed, and not the Church of the redeemed, but the accidents onely of that Church; as you teach, and as the Spouse of Christ and his body, and not the Spouse nor his body. I see not by our bre∣threns doctrine that Officers as Officers have any right title or Page  194 warrant to the Keyes, or to any use of them, seeing they are gi∣ven to believers as believers, and as Christs body and Spouse. 2. The place Matth. 28. 19. is against you; for you say, that Pa∣storall preaching and administration of the Seales are given onely to such as are Preachers by office. Now the converting of infidels and other unbelievers, to make them fit materials of a visible Church, is not (as you say) the charge proper to Pastors as Pastors, and by vertue of their Pastorall charge, as baptizing; by this place is their proper charge, because Pastors as Pastors convert none at all, nor can they as Pastors exercise any pasto∣rall acts toward the un-converted; the un-converted by your way are under no Pastorall charge, but converted by Prophets, not in Office; Pastors as Pastors exercise all pastorall acts toward these onely who are members of a visible Church, as toward these onely who have professed by oath subjection to their ministery, ad are partakers of the precious faith, and are the sonnes and daugh∣ters of the Lord God Almighty. So you teach. So by this Text, Pastors as Pastors cannot convert infidels, and we desire a war∣rant from Gods Word for the pastorall acts in converting soule; yea, seeing by this place persons out of office onely doe convert soules by your doctrine, with all reason persons out of place should baptize, for teaching and baptizing here, and by your owne doctrine are of a like extent. See to this, and satisfie us in this point of such consequence as everteth the ministery of the New Testament, which we believe our brethren intend not, be∣ing so direct Anabaptatisme and Socinianisme, points that, we know, our deare brethren doe not love or affect.

The Author addeth, He who said to the Apostles, Whose sinnes ye retaine they are retained, and whose sinnes ye remit they are re∣mitted, Joh. 20. 23. He also said to the Church, Whatsoever ye bi•• on earth shall be bound in Heaven. Math. 18. 18. Which is a Commis∣sion of the same power, and to the same ffect; and so the Apostles and the Churches both received the same power immediately from Christ: and therefore though the Church presented their Officers chosen by themselves to receive ordination from the Apostles, 〈◊〉 now when the Apostles are ceased, and no other successors left in t••• roome from whom their officers might receive ordination, but fr•• the Presbyterie of their owne Churches; where such a PresbyteryPage  195is yet wanting, and is now to be erected, the Church hath full power to give ordination to them themselves, by the imposition of their hands.

Answ. If the Reverend Authour had framed an Argument here, it should have been thus: Those who have received immedi∣ately from God a Commission of the same power, and to the same effect, by the Text Math. 18. 18. Which the Apostles of our Lord received by the Text, Joh. 20. 23. These may doe what the Apo∣stles did in ordaining of Elders, seeing they are the successors of the Apostles, where there be no Elders.

But the Church of believers received the same Commission, Matth. 18. 18. which the Apostle did Joh. 20. 23. and where Ed∣ders are wanting in the Church, the Church of believers is their successors. Erge. &c.

First, the assumption is false; for if the Church receive the same Commission Math. 28. The Apostles received Joh. 20. and you must adde Math. 28. 19. for the same Commission is given to the Apostles, Math. 28. 19. which is given Joh. 20. 23. But the Disciples received Commission, Ioh. 20. and Math. 28. of Pasto∣rall binding and loosing, and preaching, by vertue of their Of∣fice; and to administer the Sacraments in their owne persons, as you grant: therefore the Church of believers received com∣mission from Christ (where Presbyters are not) to preach by vertue of an Office, and administer the Sacraments in their owne persons. Ergo, the Church of believers may, where there is no Presbytery, preach by verue of an Office, and administer the Sa∣craments. You will happily say, there is no such necessity of baptizing as of ordination of Ministers, and baptizing is incom∣municable, because we read not that any in the Apostolique Church baptized, but Pastors. I answer, there is, in an extraordi∣nary necessity where there are no Presbyters at all, as little neces∣sity of ordination if there be Presbyters in other Congregati∣ons to ordaine▪ And since you never read that any in the Apo∣stolique Church ordained Pastors, but Pastors onely; why, but we may have recourse to a Presbytery of other Congregations for or∣dination, as well as for baptizing; for it is petitio principii, a beg∣ging of the question, to say that baptizing is proper to Pastors, but ordination is not so. yea but ordination by precept & practice Page  196 is never given but to Pastors, and Elders in consociation 1 Tin. 4 14 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Tim. 1. 6. 2 Tim. 2. 2, 3. Tit. 1. 5. Act. 6. 6. Act. 13. 3 Act. 14 23. 2. There is good reason why Pastors should be succes∣sours of the Apostles in the act of ordaining Pastors; & you grant, where Pastors and Elders are, they succeed to the Apostles in the acts of ordination; but that all believers men and women should be the Apostles successours to ordaine Pastors, is a rare and un∣knowne case of Divinity, for 1 Cor. 12. 29. Are all Apostles? are all Prophets? Yea, not long agoe you said that Act. 1. an hun∣dred and twenty, amongst whom there were women, had all hand in the ordination of Matthias to be an Apostle; so that beleevers by you are made the Apostles successours; and more, yea even co-ordainers, and joynt-layers on of hands with the Apostles. Yea, if believers received immediately this same Com∣mission from Christ, Math. 18. which the Apostles received Ioh. 20. Believers are to ordaine Pastors no lesse, when the Pres∣bytery and Elders are present, then when they are absent; yea, and rather then the Apostles, because the Church of beleevers their patent passed the Seales first, even before the Lords resur∣rection. 3. It is good you grant that ordination and election are different, we will make use of it hereafter.

The Authour addeth, We willingly also acknowledge, where God*hath furnished a Church with a Presbytery, to them it appertaineth by imposition of hands to ordaine Elders and Deacons chosen by the Church; but if the Church want a Presbytery, they want a Warrant to repaire to other Churches to receive imposition of hands to their Elders. 1. Because ordination is a worke of Church power, now as Church hath power over another, so no Presbytery hath power over another Church then their owne; All the Apostles received alike power, Ioh. 20. 23. 2 The power of the keyes is a liberty purcha∣sed by Christs blood, Math. 28. 8. Phil. 2. 8, 9 10. Therefore it is unlawfull for any Church to put over that power into the hands of another.

Answ. We desire a warrant from Gods Word, where Elders, where they are present, are to ordaine Elders by imposition of hands, and not believers; for ordination is a worke of the Church; Officers are not the Church, nor are they parts or members of the Church, but onely accidents; the Church hath its full be∣ing, Page  197 the power and use of the Keyes given to them by Math. 18. though there be not a Pastor or Officer among them; and if Christ before his resurrection gave the Keyes to beleevers as to his Spouse, living body, and such as have Peters faith Math. 16. Resolve us, we beseech you brethren, in this, how Christ can give the Keyes after his resurrection, Ioh. 20. 23. to the Apostles as Pastors, and as no believers, not his Spouse, not his body; for Officers, as Officers, are not the redeemed of God, nor Christs Spouse. If you say that Christ, Ioh. 20. gave the Keyes to his Disciples as beleevers, then he gave the power of baptizing after his resurrection also, by the parallel place Math. 28. 19. to the Apostles as to beleevers. Hence 1. Christ hath never given the Keyes to Officers as Officers. 2. The place Ioh. 20. is but a re∣newing of the Keyes given to the Church, Math. 16. and Math. 18. and all believers are sent and called to be Pastors, as the Father sent Christ, and as Christ sent his Apostles, as our Lord speaketh, John 20. 21. This I thinke all good men will abhorre, though M. Smith saith these words, and that power Iohn 20. 21. was given to Cleohas and Mary Magdalen. And by your way, Paul (as I thinke) without warrant interdicted women of the use of that power, that Christ purchased by his blood. 3. There is no warrant of the Word to make good, that Christ gave the Keyes to Officers as Officers, by your way, but onely to Officers as to beleevers; and therefore believers ought rather to ordaine Pastors then the Officers, though there be Officers to ordaine. 3. That Pastors of other Congregations may not ordaine Pastors to Congregations, who have no Pastors of their owne. as they may baptize infants to them also, we see no rea∣son. Yea, and Church power is not a thing that cannot be com∣municated to another Church by your Doctrine, for ye grant members of one Congregation may receive the Lords Supper in another Congregation, except you deny all communion of sister Churches, for it is a worke of Church power to give the Lords Supper to any, then if you give that Sacrament to members of another Congregation; consider if the liberty purchased by Christs Blood be not communicable to other Churches.

Thirdly, (saith he) if one Church repaire to another Church for ordination, they may submit to another Church forPage  198censuring of offenders, now how can Churches censure these that are not members? Is not this a transgression of the Royall Law of go∣vernement? Mat. 18. 15, 16, 17, 18.

Answ. The offence being great, and the offender deserving to be cast out of all the visible congregations round about, yea and to be bound in Earth and Heaven, the congregation is to have recourse to all the congregations consociated, when they are convened in one presbytery; that they, being conve∣ned in their principall members, may all cast him out, because it concerneth them all: as if onely one congregation doe it, they transgesse that royall Law, Quod omnes tangit, ab omnibus tractari debet. 2. The Author granteth, that the Church pre∣sented*their officers chosen by them, to receive ordination from the Apostles; Ergo, The Church did give a way their liberty of or∣dination, bought by Christs bloud, to the Apostles, not as to Apostles, but as to pastors: which is against our Brethrens Doctrine; for except the Apostles bee said to ordaine Officers, as Pastors, and not as Apostles, our Brethren shall find none to be the successors of Apostles in the power of ordination, but onely Believers; so Pastors have no power at all to ordaine Pastors, the contrary whereof our Brethren teach.

Now I come to the Brethrens minde in their Questions. It was objected aHow can it be lawfull for meere lay and private men to ordaine Elders? they answer, the persons ordaining are the pub∣lick assembly, and so cannot, in any congruity of speech, be called meere Lay-men.

I answ. Seeing they have no Church office, they can be nothing, but meere private men; For the unwarrantable action of ordi∣nation maketh them not publick Officers. As if a Midwife bap∣tize in the name of the Church, shee is not a meere private person.

2. They say, The Church hath power from Christ for the greater, to wit, for Election; Ergo, she hath power to doe the lesse, which is or∣dination; or ordination dependeth upon Election, and it is nothing but the putting of a person in actuall possession of that office, wherunto he had right by Election.

Answ. Ordination, by your owne grant, is more then E∣lection, for the Apostles ordained, Acts 6. and must have done Page  199 the most, and the multitude elected the seaven Deac̄ons, Acts 6 2. Ordination is more then the installing of a person cho∣sen, it is a supernaturall act of the Presbytery separating a man to an holy calling, election is posterior to it, and is but an appropriation of a called person his Ministery, to such a par∣ticular flock.

3. Say they; Ordination may be performed by the Elders, where there be Elders, 1 Tim. 4. 14. yet it is an act of the whole Church, as*the whole man seeth, but by the Eye.

Answ. Though you say, Pastors in the Churches name baptize, yet doth it not follow; Ergo, where Pastors are not, the Church of believers may baptize.

4. They object, when the Church hath no Officers, the prime grave mn performe ordination; as Nu. 8, The Israelites layd on Hands on the Levites, that is, some prime Man layd on hands.

Answ. Israel wanted not Officers. 2. These prime Men are called the Congregation; Ergo, there is a representative Church.

5. They object; If B lievers may not ordaine, it shall follow either that Officers may minister without ordination, against the Srip∣ture, 1 Tim. 4. 14. Heb. 6. 1. or, by vertue of ordination received in another Church, they might minister. Now if this be, we esta∣blish an idlble character of Papists, but if being called to ano∣ther Church, there be need of a new Election, then there is need of a new ordination, for that dependeth upon this; Ergo, then ordi∣nation commeth by succession, but we see not what authority ordinary officers have to ordaine Pastors to a Church, whereof themselves are not members.

Answ. 1. That ordination be wanting, where Ministers are wanting, is extraordinary, and not against, 1 Tim. 4 14. No more then that one not baptized for want of a Pastor should yet believe in Christ. 2. We see no indeleble Character, because a Pastor is alwayes a called Pastor; if the man commit scandals, the Church may call all his character from him, and turne him into a meere private man. But to renew ordination, when electi∣on to another congregation is renewed, is to speake ignorant∣ly of ordination and election: for election maketh not the Page  200 man a Minister, nor giveth him a calling, but appropriateth his Ministery to such a flock. But they speake of Election to a charge as of marriage, which is not well understood, for by marriage a man is both made a Husband, and a Husband to this Wife onely: by election a Pastor is not made a Pastor, by ordination he is made a Pastor of the Church Universall, though hee be not made an Universall Pastor. 3. The ordina∣tion by succession of Pastors, where Pastors are, you hold your selves. But a popish personall succession, wee disclaime, as well as you doe:

The 5. Objection I omit to another time. The 6. * Objecti∣on is; If there be a magistrate before, the succeeding magistrate receiveth keys or (word from the preceding magistrate: but if there be none, he receiveth them from the people. So here.

Answ. Christs calling is not ordered according to the patterne of civill governments, his kingdome is not of this world. People may both ordaine and elect to a civill office, without consent of the preceding Magistrate. But we reade of no officers ordained by the people, only in an ordinary way.

Ordination (say they) is not of such eminency as is conceived, it is not mentioned in the Apostles first commission, Mat. 28, 19. Marke 16. 15, 16. The Apostles accompted preaching and pray∣ing principall. SoaPerkinsbVVilletcVVhittaker,dAmesius.

Answ. So answer Arminians e and so doth the Socinian fTheol. Nicolaides, and gSocinus; and so in your words saith hPage  201 to reforme, but this is not to take away the necessity of ordina∣tion, by Pastors.

I come now to answer, what Mr. Robinson doth adde, to what is said for the ordination of Pastors by Pastors, and not by single Believers, Mr. Robinsoni saith, the question is, whe∣ther succession of Pastors be of such absolute necessity, as that no Minister can in any case be made but by a Minister, and if they must be ordained by popes, and prelates.

Answ. But we say that this is no question at all, wee affirme ordination of pastors not to be of that absolute necessity, but in an exigence of necessity the election of the people, and some other thing, may supply the want of it. Nor doe wee thinke a calling from papists no calling, as we shall heare: before I proceed this must be discussed.

Q. 5. UUhether Election of the people be essentiall to the cal∣ling of a Minister.

. Election we are to consider, to whom it belongeth of right. 2. The force and influence thereof to make a Church-officer; but let these considerations first be pondered.

1. Consid. Election is made either by a people gratious and able to discerne, or by a people rude and ignorant; the former is valid, Jure & facto, the latter not so.

2. Consid. Election is either comparative or absolute; when E∣lection is comparative, though people have nothing possibly positively to say against a person, yet though they reject him and choose one siter, the Election is reasonable.

3. Consid. Peoples Election is not of a person to the Ministery as a VViis choyse of a man to be a Husband, but of a Minister; E∣lection doth not make a Minister.

4. Consid. Election is either to be looked to, quoad jus, or, quoad fctum. A people not yet called externally, cannot elect their own Mi∣nister, a Synod or others of charity (as Reverend Junius asaith) may chuse for them, though, de facto, and in respect of their case, they cannot chuse their own Pastor.

1. Conclus. The people have Gods right to chuse, for so the b word prescribeth. So cTertullian,dEyprian. Non blandiatur sibi plebs, quasi immunis à contagione delicti esse possit, cum sacerdote peccatore communicans & ad injustum Page  202 atque illicitum propositi Episcopatum consensum sum ac∣commodans, &c. andd nefas sine consensu pouli: and this Cyprian writ an hundreth yeeres before the Nicen Councell. Bellarmine loed hi face e to say this custome began in the time of the Nicon Councell. It was not a consuetude fQud ipsum (inquit Cyprianus) videmus de Divina autoritate descen∣der;g Ignatius, It is your part, as the Church of God to chuse the Pastor;〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. So speaketh hee to the people of Philadelphia; and so speaketh hAmbrose to Valentinian, Omitto, quia jam ipse populus judica∣vit,iOrigen: Requiritur ergo in ordinando sacerd te praesentia populi, &c. and his reason is Scripture, a pastor must be of good report. And kChrysostome saith, all elections of pastors are null,〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, without the conscience of the people. And the Councell of Nice did write this to the Bishops of Alex∣andria as lTheodoret saith, and the fist generall councell of Constantinople wrote the same to Daemasus, Ambrose, and o∣thers, as mTheodoret also sheweth n The councell of Africa is cited by Cyprian producing Scripture, as Acts 1. 23. Acts 6. to prove that the people had their consent in elections; and o the councell of Chalcedonp the councell of Ancyron, and q of Laodicea; and the Popes owne r Canons say this, s so Nicolaus the Pope in his Decrees saith, the Clergy and people did chuse the pope, Reliquus clerus & populus Romanus ad consensum nova electionis pontificis à Cardinalibus factae acce∣dant. So tGelasius the pope writeth to Philippus and Cernuti•• Bishops, so Stephanus ad Romanumuarchiepiscopum Rav••∣natensem, is cited in the glosse to that purpose; in x the Epistles of Ivo Bishop of Chartres, we being called, by the will of God, the Clegy and people of such a City, and this Pope Ur••• practised upon Ivo.

2. Conclus. But elections in the ancient Church were not by one single congregation, but by the Bishops of diverse other Churches. In the y councell of Sardis, Si unum tantùm in pro∣vincia contigerit remanere Episcopum, suporstes Episcopus con••∣care debet Episcopos vicinae provinciae. & cum iis orainare sibi comprovincales Episcopos; quod si id facero negligat, populus con∣vocare debet Episcopos vicinae provinciae & peter sibi rectorem.Page  203 In the z councell of Toledo it was ordained, that the Bishop of Toledo might chuse in quibustibee Prvinciis, in any provin∣ces about Bishops to be his successors, salvo privilegio uniusn∣jusqu provinciae. Cardinalls are forbidden to usurp to chuse a Bishop, if the see vace in the time of a generall Councell, this was enacted in the councell of *Constance and aBasil. The Abbot of Panormo saith, it was obtained of the councell of Carthageb to avoyde dissension, that they should transfer their right to the Cardinalls. So cAlmain and dGerson prove the equity of this by good reasons. That wicked councell of Trent, labouring to exalt the popes chaire, did abro∣gate these good acts to the offence of many, as the Author e of the review of the councell of Trent sheweth; nor should good men stand for Leo his abrogation of what the councell of Basil did in this kinde, as may be seene in that wicked coun∣cell of Lateranf wherein much other wicked power is given to the pope and his Legates by Iulius III. and Paul the III. and Pius the IIII. and gTheodoret saith, all the Bishops of a Province ought to bee at the ordination of a Bishop. The ordination of the worthy, Ambrose, as hee h himselfe saith, was confirmed by all the Bishops of the East and West. Cornelius Bishop of Rome was confirmed by the Bishops of Africa. More of this may be seene in iZonaras, In kTheodoretl the councell of Carthage and mPetrus a Navarre, who all witnes ordination of a Bishop was never done in the ancient Church by one single Congregation, and these destitute of pastors and Elders. The learned say, that Gregory the VII. or Hildebrand did first exclude the people from voycing in elections of pastors. Il∣liricus sayth onely from the time of Frederick the XI. about the yeare, 1300 they were excluded from this power. And though it were true, that the election of Alexander the III. was made 400 yeeres before that, by the Cardinalls onely, without the peoples consent, the Law and Logick both say; from one fact no Law can be concluded. Yea the election of Gregory the VII. (saith nVasquez) was five hundred yeeres before that, and like enough that such a monster and such a seditious head to the Lords annoynted to Henry the IIII, as this Gregory was, could violate Christs order. oPlatina sayth so; yet Bellarmine,Page  204Suarez and others grant, in the Apostles time it was so; b•• because it was a positive Law (some say) and others that it was a Church constitution, not a divine Law, the Pope might change it. Yet the Jesuite Sanctiusp in his comment proveth it from Scripture, qAzorius sayth, it should be common Law, communi jure,rKrantius layeth the blame of wronging the people in this, on Gregory the IX. yea s the councell of Bracare, the t second councell of Nice; The councell of Con∣stantinople. 4 called the eight generall Councell u the councell of *Laodicea are corruptly expounded by xBellarmin.yVs∣quez and others: because. 1. They forbid onely disorder and confusion. 2. That all the multiude, without exceptionosage, gifts, or sexes, should come, and speak and voyce at the election. For in the councell of Antiochz it is expressely forbidden that the multitude should be debarred. And wee will not deny but a pastor may be sent to a Church of Infidels that knoweth nothing of Christ, without their knowledge, as aRuffinu sayth, that Frumentius was ordained Bishop to the Indians, they knowing nothing of it, Indis nihil scientibus neque cogitantibus. Epiphanius writeth to Iohn Bishop of Ierusalem, that hee had ordained Paulinianus a presbyter, the people not consenting. Gregorius ordained Augustine Bishop of England and sent him to them to teach them, Anglis nescientibus. And Gregorius II. ordained Bonifacius a Bishop to bee sent to Germany, Ger∣manis nihil de eare cogitantibus. And thus bPerkins, if the Gospell should arise in America, where there were no Mini∣sters, ordination might be wanting. And why not (say I) electi∣on also in another case, if as cPetrus Martyr sayth well; a woman may be a Preacher of the Gospell; Yea, and a Turke (sayth dZanchius) converted by reading the New Testa∣ment, and converting others, may baptize them whom hee converteth, and be baptized where both ordination and election should be wanting: and this may answer what eRobinson saith for ordination by the people.

Nor did the people first begin to have hand in election in fTertullians time, as Bellarmine saith, nor yet that the people might love their Bishops, nor yet by meere cu∣stome.

Page  205Conclus. III. It is false our g Brethren say, that the calling of a Minister consisteth principally and essentially in election of the people, for the Apostles were essentially pastors, yet not one of them, except Matthias was chosen by the people. 2. If, as our Brethren say, the peoples after acceptance may supply the want of Election at first, as Iacobs after consent to Leah made her his Wife, yet all the pastorall acts of Word, Sacra∣ments, and censures going before the after consent shall be null, because he wanteth that which most principally and essentially is required in a calling. And all baptized by him must be re∣baptized. And what if the people shall never assent, and it is or∣dinary that hypocrites in hearts will never consent to the Mi∣nistry of a gratious pastor, shall his acts of converting, and baptizing be no pastorall acts, and to the hypocrites no pastorall acts: and shall all be Infidels, who are baptized by him? The people are not infallible in their choise, and may refuse a man for a pastor, whom God hath called to be a pastor; election maketh not one a pastor, in foro Dei, then he shall be no pastor whom God hath made a Pastor, because people out of ignorance or prejudice consent not to his Ministery. Nor are we of Dr. Ames judgement, that the calling of a Minister doth essentially consist in the peoples election; for his externall calling consisteth in the presbyters separation of a man for such a holy calling, as the Holy Ghost speaketh. Wee finde no Church-calling in all Gods Word of sole election of the people, and therefore it cannot be the essentiall forme of a right calling. All the arguments of Doctor Ames prove, that election is necessary to appropriate a made Minister to such a Congregation, but concludeth not the poyn.

Qu. 5. From whence had Luther, Calvin, and our blessed Refor∣mers their calling to the pastorall charge?

This question there is moved because of our Brethren, who thinke. 1. If ordination of pastors by pastors, be so necessary for an ordinary calling to the Ministery, and if Election of people be not sufficient, though they want pastors and Elders then Luther and our Reformers had no calling, for they were called by the Pope and his Clergy, for saith nRobinson when there be no 〈◊〉 Church-officers on Earth to give ordination, we must holdPage  206with Arrians, and expect new Apostles to give ordination; neither can a true, pastor go and seek a calling from a false pastor. Hence observe carefully the following distinctions, to obviate both pa∣pists cavillations and our Brethrens doubts.

1. Distinct. That is. 1. Properly extraordinary, which is im∣mediately from God, without any other intervening cause; so Moses his calling, when God spake to him out of the Bush to goe to Pharaoh and command the letting goe of his people, was extraordinary, for, both the matter of the calling, and the per∣sons designation to the charge was immediately from God Luthers calling this way was not extraordinary, because hee preached no new Gospell, nor by any immediate calling from God.

2. That is extraordinary which is contrary to the Law of of nature. Neither the calling of Luther nor of Hus and Wiccliff was extraordinary; for, that any inlightened of God and members of the Catholick Church should teach, informe, o helpe their fellow-members being seduced, and led by blind guides, is agreeable to the Law of nature; but according to our Brethrens grounds Luthers calling here, was not onely extra∣ordinary, but unlawfull and contrary to a Divine Law. For now when Apostles are ceased, Luher had no warrant (if our Brethren say right) no calling of God, to exercise pastorall acts of preaching, converting soules to Christ, and baptizing through many visible Churches & congregations, because that is (say they) Apostolick; and no man now can bee a pastor, but in one fixed congregation whereof he is the elected pastor.

3. That is extraordinary, which is beside a Divine positi•• Law. So that one should be chosen a pastor in an Iland where there be no Elders nor pastors at all, and that the people onely give a calling, is extraordinary, and so it is not inconvenient tha something extroardinary was in our reformers.

4. That is extraordinary, which is against the ordinary corruptions, wicked and superstitious formes of an ordinary cal∣ing: so, in this sense, Luher and our reformers calling was extra∣ordinary.

2. Dist. A calling immediately from God, and a calling from God, some way extraordinary, are farre different. An im∣mediate Page  207 calling often requireth miracles to confirme it, especi∣ally the matter being new, yet not alwayes; John Baptists cal∣ling was immediate, his Sacrament of Baptisme beside the posi∣tive order of Gods worship, yet hee wrought no miracles, but an extraordinary calling may be, where there is an immediate and ordinary revelation of Gods Will, and requireth not mi∣racles at all.

3. Dist. Though ordinarily in any horologe the higher wheele should move the lower, yet it is not against ordinary art, that the hotologe be so made as inferiour wheeles may move without the motion of the superiour. Though by ordinary dispensa∣tion of Gods standing Law, the Church convened in a Synod should have turned about Hus, Wicliff, Luther, to regular mo∣tions in orthodox Divinity; yet it was not altogether extraordi∣nary, that these men moved the higher wheeles, and labou∣red to reforme them. Cyprian urged Reformation, Aurelius Bishop of Carthage, Augustin and the African Bishops did the like, the Bishop of Romeepining thereat It is somewhat extra∣ordinary that Reformation should begin at Schollers, and not at principall Masters.

4. Dist. A calling may be expresly and formally corrupt, in respect of the particular intention of the ordainers, and of the particular Church, ex intentione ordinanris & operantis. Thus Luthers calling to bee a Monke was a corrupt calling, and eatenus, and in that respect hee could not give a calling to o∣thers. But that some calling may be implicitely and virtually good and lawfull in respect of the intention of the Catholick Church and ex intetione opris & ipsius ordinationis, he was called o preach the Word of God.

5. Dist. Luthers Oath to preach the Gospell did oblige him as a pastor, this is his calling according to the substance of his Office, and is valid; but his Oath to preach the Roman Faith intended by the exacters of the Oath was eatenus, in so far▪ un∣lawfull, and did not oblige him. Even a Wife married to a Turke, and swearing to bee a helper to her Husband in pro∣moving the worship of the Mahomet, or being a papist is in∣gaged in an Oath to promote Romish Religion; if shee bee converted to the true Faith of Christ, needeth not to be married Page  208de novo, but remaineth a married Wife; but is not obliged by that unjust Oath to promove these false Religions, though the marriage Oath, according to the substance of marriage duties, tieth her.

6. Dist. A pastor may, and ought to have a pastorall care of the Catholick Church, as the hand careth for the whole bo∣dy, and yet neither Luther nor Zuinglius are universall pastors, as were the Apostles. For they had usurped no power of Go∣verning and Teaching all Churches: though, I professe, I see no inconvenience to say that Luther was extraordinarily called by God, to goe to many Churches, to others then to Wittenberg, where hee had one particular charge, yea even through Ger∣many and the Churches of Saxony, and Zuinglius through the Helvetian and Westerne Churches, which yet doth not make them essentially Apostles, because. 1. They were not wit∣nesses of Christs Death, and Resurrection, which as a new Doctrine to the World, as Apostles, they behoved to preach, Acts 1. v. 22. They only revealed the old truth borne downe by an universall Apostacy. 2. Because they were not immediately called, nor gifted with diverse Tongues. And the like I may say of A∣thanasius, for men in an extraordinary apostacy to goe somewhat farther then to that which a particular Church calleth them to, is not formally apostolick, yet lawfull.

7. A calling to the Ministery is either such as wanteth the es∣sentialls, as gifts in any messenger, and the Churches consen, or these who occupy the roome of the Church, the Church consening, such a Minister is to bee reputed for no Minister. Or. 2. An entry to a calling, or a calling, where diverse of the Apostles requisites are wanting, may bee a valid cal∣ling, as if one enter as Caiphas who entered by favour and mo∣ney, and contrary to the Law was High-Priest but for a yeer: yet was a true High-Priest, and prophecied as the High-priest.

8. If the Church approve by silence, or countenance the Mi∣nistery of a man who opened the Church doore to himselfe, by a silver key, having given the prelate a bud. The ordinance of God is conferred upon him, and his calling ceaseth not to be Gods cal∣ling, because of the sins of the instruments both taking and giving.

Page  229 9. Though Luther was immediately called by Men An. 1508. by the Church of VVittenberg as may be seene a in his writ∣ings as Gerardb sheweth, and the Jesuit Becanusc saith, hee was called and ordained a Presbyter, and so had power to preach and administer the Sacraments, yet that hindereth not that his calling was ••t from the Church, whereof hee was a member, that is from the Roman Church, and from God, and that his calling to cast downe Babylon was not from the Church of Rome: and his gifts being extraordinary. 2. His Spirit heroick and supernaturally couragious, and so extraordinary. 3. His Faith in his Doctrine greate, that hee should so bee blessed with successe in his Ministery extraordinary, his calling in these considerations may well bee called extraordinary, though not immediate or apostolick.

10. Then wee may well acknowledge a middle calling be∣twixt an ordinary and every way immediate calling, and an ex∣traordinary and immediate calling, for the calling of Luther was neither the one, nor the other, in proper sense, but a middle be∣twixt two; and yet not an immediate calling. See dSadaecl and e〈◊〉.

11. The question, if such a pastor bee called lawfully, is a question of Fact not a question of Law; as this, if such an one be baptized and there be an invincible ignorance in a questi∣on of Fact which excuseth. And therefore wee may heare a gifted pastor taken and supposed by the Church, to have the Churches calling, though indeed he received no calling from the Church, at his entry.

1. Conelus. To shew that our Church was a visible Church before Luther arose, and that our Reformers were lawfully cal∣led oGod, and h Church, is a question of Fact: and cannot be proved by the Word of God. Because the Word of God is not a Chronicle of these who were the true Church and truly called to the Ministery since the Apostles departed this life. 2. Because these must be proved by Sense, and the Testimony of humane writtings, who can erre.

2. Cnclus. Yet may it be gathered from humane writers, that the visible Church of Protestants this day, hath beene since the Apostles dayes. I meane the determinate persons may be knowen by humane reasons and signes; as. 1. If Orthodox Page  230 Doctors are knowen to have lived in all ages since the Apostles it is likely that there was a visible Church, which approved of these Doctors; and if we teach that same Doctrine in substance, that these Doctors did, then hath our Church, this determi∣nate Church, beene since the Apostles time. But Orthodox Doctors are knowen to have lived in all ges as men of appro∣ved learning and soundnesse in the Faith; Ergo, our present Church visible hath continued since the Apostles time. The proposition is probable, for these Fathers would not be so re∣nowned, if the Church about thē had not approved their Doctri. It is probable (I say) because the writters against them have beene suppressed, false Teachers have beeve spoken of and re∣nowned, and true Prophets ill reported of, Mat. 5. 11, 12. I prove the assumption; for there lived in the first age, Iohn the Baptist, the Apostles, and Polycarpus, the Scholler of Iohn (as they say) and Ignatius. And in the 2. age, Iustinus, Clemens Alexandrinus, Ireneus, Melito Sardensis, Theophilus. In the 3. age Tertullian, Cyprian, Dyonisius, Alexandrin, Methodis, Origen; It is likely they opposed purgatory, prayer for the dead, reliques and the Popes supremacy, which in their seede did arise in this age. In the 4. age were Eusebius Caesariensis, Ba∣silius, Athanasius, Magnus Gregorius, Nissenus, Nazian. Ma∣carius, Cyrillus Bishop of Jerusalem, Arnobius, Lactantius, Ep∣phanius, Optatus Melivitanus, Hilarius, Ambrose, Prudentius, Hieronymus, Ammonius, Ephrem, Faeustinus. I thinke they op∣posed the infallibility of councells, invocation of Saints, and the monastick life springing up in this age. In the 5. age were Anastasius, Chrysostome, Augustine, Alexandrinus, Theodoretus, Leo, Socrates, Vigilianus, Cassianus, Prosper, Elutherius, Mar∣cus eremita, Marius Victorius. Wee conceive these opposed the corrupt Doctrine anent freewill, sinne originall, justifi∣cation by works, mens merits. In the 6. age were Fulgen∣tius, Cassiadorus, Fortunatus, Olympiodorus, Gregorius Mag••s, Maxntius; These opposed the heresies of this age, as the Doctrine of worshipping Images, Indulgences, Satisfactions, Crossing, Pilgrimages, Service in an unknowen Tongue, Offer∣ings for the dead, worshipping of Reliques of Saints, necessity absolute of Baptisme, the making the Sacrament a Sacrifice for the dead. In the 7. age being a time of Darknesse very Page  231 few, Isiodorus, and few others, here the holiest opposed the Popes stile and place of being universall Bishop, and the abomi∣nable Sacrifice of the Masse. In the 8. arose Beda, Paulus Dia∣conus, Joann, Damascen, a superstitious Monke, Carolus Ma∣gus, Albinus; In this age came in Transubstantiation, the Sa∣crament of penance, and confirmation. It was an evill time. In the 9. age were Rabanus, Haymo, Reigius, Hinaemarus, Pashasius, then extreme unction, orders, and marriage were made Sacraments. In the 10. age was Theophylact, Smaragdus, Giselbertus. In the 11. Anselme, Algerus. In the 12. Schoole Doctors, such as Peter Cluniarensis, Alexander Alensis, Thomas Aquinas, Scotus, at length Luther and Melanthon came, but from these we build no infallible argument to prove our Church to be the true Church.

2. The very visible Church that now is, was in the Waldenses. 1. One of their owne writters aRainerus saith, quod dura∣verit à tempore Sylvestri, alii dicunt quod à tempore apostolorum, a Novator set out by the Jesuite GretserusbPetrus Pilich∣dorffius saith, they arose eight hundereth yeeres after Silvester in the time of Innocentius the 2. In the City of Walden in the borders of France one arose, who professed voluntary poverty, and because they were against preaching of the Gospell, he and his fol∣lowers were excommunicated, but he is found a lier by popish writ∣ters who lived long before Innocentius the 2. and make menti∣on of them. The articles of Iohn Hus, saith cAeneas Silvius, cum confessionibus Calvinianorum consonant, and Silvius is not our friend. I grant dGretser denieth this, that the Faith of such as are called Calvinists agreeth with the articles of Hus; because hee will have them grosser eFlaccius saith these Waldenses called Leonistae, their Doctrine was spread, per Lm∣bardiam, Alsatiam, totum tractum Rhenanum, Belgicam, Saxoni∣am, Pomeraniam, Borussiam, Poloniam, Luciniam, Sueviam, Si∣lesiam, Bhmiam, Moraviam, Calabriam, & Siciliam. Carolus Lotharingusfthe Cardinall complaineth, as also gHegesip∣pus, that for sixteene ages since Christ, the first onely was of God, and of the Church was a Virgin. And none made these com∣plaints, but these who were Waldenses. So also complaineth hLactantius, and iIsiodorus pelusota: Why did Page  232lCosterus taking on him to prove the succession of the Ro∣man Church for 1400 yeeres, leaves 300. years blanck, where hee cannot finde his Mother Church; and yet mNicepho∣rus saith Simon Zelotes preached the Gospell in Maurtania & Aphrorum regione, even to Brittaine, that is, to the end of the Earth, yea Balaeus, Flemingus, Sirops say, that Ioseph of ∣rimathea preached in Britaine, and nTertullian in the se∣cond century which was his owne time saith the like. See the oCenturiasts, yea and pBarontus, and qOrigen about an. 206. saith the same; and Ieromer an. 407. Gattia, Brit∣annia, Africa, Persis, oriens India, & omnes Barbarae nationes uum Christum adorant, & unam observant regulam veritatis. What were all these but such as after were called VValdenses? And in the first ages sPius 2. saith, ante concilium Nicenu•• parvus respectus babitus fuerat ad Romanam ecclesiars; before the Nicen councill little respect was ad to th. Church of Rome. See this learnedly Demonstrated by the learned tVoetius, and his reason is good. Ignatius, Ireneus, Iustin. Martyr, Clm. Alexan∣dr. Tertullian, Cyprian speak not one syllable of popery or popish articles; also Lucian, Porphyrius, Tryphe, Cellus, Sosymus, Symmachus, Iulian, mockers of Reiligon would have spoken against transubstantiation, one body in many thousand pla∣ces, worshipping of dead bones, the worshipping of a Tree, Crosse, and dumbe images, and bread, a Pope who could not erre, and they would have challenged and examined miracles, and I adde if they scoffed at the Doctrine of these called after VValdenses as the confession beareth, then were the Church of Waldenses (though not under that name) in their time. The Jewes objected against the Fathers Tatian, Theophilus, Athenages, Iustin, Tertullian, Alexand. Cyrian, Chrysostome, Isiodorus, Hispalensis, Iulianus Ponerius, They objected all they could devise against the Christian Faith, but not a word of poynts of popery now controversed; Ergo, popery hath not beene in the World then, an. 188. In the Time of Victor many opposed victors Tyranny: and as Plessaeusw and Doctor Molineusx saith, were called Schismaticks therefore, and excommuni∣cated. Neither can Gretserusy nor Bellarminez defend this, but by lies and raylings. Yea from the 4. to the 7. age Page  233 (saith aVoetius) produce one Martyr, professor, or Doctor. See Augustine de side ad Petrum, Ruffinus his exposition of the Creed, Gnnadius of the Articles of the Church, Theodoret his Epitome Divinorum decretorum, Cyrillus his tract de fide, and produce one holding the popish Faith. bClemens Romanus and Elutherisc in the Epistle to the Bishops of France ma∣keth all Bishops pastors of the Church universall. Any who rea∣deth dGreserus against Plssie may see in the 4. age that Baronius and Bellarmine cannot desend, that appeale was made to the Pope in the councell of Carthage, yea the Popes Legate brought Apiarius to the Councell, that his cause might be judged there, becaus the Pope could not judge it, and that the Councell of Chalcedon was, per precepta Valentiniani, con∣vened. and that Canstantinople was equall with Rome. That Simplicius, Glasius and Symmachus were Judges in their owne cause, and that Hormisda an. 518. had no command over the Oientall Churches, as may be seene in eBaronius. So Pelagius the 1. Ioan. the 3. and Pelagius the 2. were refused the honour of universall Bishops, and could not helpe the mat∣ter; See fGretser, and gHonorius must be defended as not denying two wills; and two natures in Christ. See what saith Bronius of this. The councell of hConstantinople would not receive the worshipping of Images. The best part of the Western Churches were against it. The Churches of France, Germany, Italy, Brittaine. The i councell of franckford, of kParis, so did they all refuse the power of the Pope. So Occam, Gerson, Scotus, in most poynts were not papists. Nor Cajetan, Contaren, Almin, Ioa, Major, Caranza. Therefore said lThuanus the Doctrine of the VValdenses were now and then renewed by 〈◊〉 and Hus, and when Hildebrand came in, all know what wicked new poynts hee brought in, as in the Tomes m of the councells may bee seene; and nOnuphrius sayth, quod major pars antea parum in usu fuerit; The greatest part of his novelty not heard before, or little in use. His Tyranny up∣on the consciences of Church-men forbidding marriage: and over the Lords people may be seene in oSleidanp In Lampadius, and his forme of excommunicating the Emperour as it is written by qBeruriedenses and rSigonius,s also Page  234Aventinus,tGerochus Reicher spergesistOrthuinus; Gra∣tius and others can tell. But ere I speake of this monster head I should not have omitted humble Stephanus the 5. To whom Lodovick the Emperour, descending from his Horse, fell down upon the Earth thrice before his feete, and at the third time saluted him thus, blessed be the Lord God, who commeth in the Name of the Lord, and who hath shined upon us. As uTheganus saith that Pashalis excuseth himselfe to the Emperour Lod. That hee had leapen to the Popedome without his authority, which saith, this headship is not supreame, as xAimoinus saith, who was a murderer of Theodorus, The Roman Churches Seale-keeper and of Le. for having first put out their Eyes, hee then be∣headed them, say the same Aimoinus, Gregory the 4. caused Lodovick the Emperours sons to conspire against the Father and was upon that plot himselfe. Sergius the 2. made an act that a Bishop should be convinced of no fault but under sevety and two witnesses. Siconulphus a Prince desiring to have this Popes blessing, came to Rome and kissed (saythyGretserus after zAnastasius) his precious feete. Anguilbert Archiepisc. Mediolanensis departed out of the Roman Church for the pride of Rome, and Simon of Sergius, sayth Sigonius,a It was or∣dinary for all, saythbAnastasius, to kisse the seate of Leo the 4. Platinac saith, hee was guilty of a conspiracy against Gratianus a godly and worthy man, to expell the French-men out of the Kingdome and bring in the Greciane. Gretser the Jesuite saith, their owne Platina is a Lyer in this.

Wee all know there was an English Woman-Pope called Ioanna, betwixt Leo the 4. and Benedictus the 3. Bellarmine, Baronius, Gretser, Lipsius will have it a fable. Platina a popish writter is more to be believed then they all, for hee affirmeth it as truth. A great schisme arose in the Church because Be∣nedictus the 3. was chosen Pope without the Emperours con∣sent. The Emperour did hold the bridle and lead the Horse of Nicolaus the 1. dGretser cannot deny this) hee defended and maintained Baldvinus, who was excommunicated by the Bi∣shops of France, because he ravished Iuditha the daughter of C∣rolus Calvus. Hee pleaded that there was no reason; but thePage  235decretalls of the popes should be received as the Word of God, but because they were not written in the bookes of Church-Ca∣nons: for by that reason some bookes of the old and New Testa∣ment are not to be received as Gods Word (eGrets.) said, these Epistles were equall with Gods Word, and said, they had, neither these Epistles, nor the Scriptutes authority from the holy Spirit, but from the Church. That the church was foure hundred yeeres ignorant of the authority of the Scriptures: that hee himselfe was Jehova eternall, and that Gratianus had inserted it in his distinct. 96. That hee was God. Adrian the 2. ap∣proved of Basilius his killing of Michael the Emperour his Father.

fOnuphrius who observeth 26. Schisms of antipopes thinketh Schismatick Popes, no popes, as Benedict. 5. and 10 Honorius 2. Clement 3. Gregor. 8. Celestinus 2: Victor 2. Some Popes have beene declared Hereticks by papists, as gGre∣gorius 12. Benedictus 13. In the councell, of Pisa; and hIohn 23. In the councell of Constance; moreover Bonifacius 8. Ser∣gius 3. Benedictus 7. Eugenius 4. Iohn 9. and Iohn 22. had no tolerable measure of learning to be priests, how then could they be universall prophets who could not erre? Liberius was an Arrian (as iAthanasius and Alphons. saith) Zepherinus was a Montanist, as Tertullianksaith. Honorius was con∣demned, for saying Christ had but one will, in l generall coun∣cells at Constantinople, Marcellinus sacrificed to Idolls as mBellarmine confesseth; faelix was an Arrian and consecra∣ted by an Arrian Bishop, (as nHieronim. saith) Anastasius was a Nestorian (as oAlphonsus saith) Iohn 22. said, soules did not see God untill the Resurrection, as pErasmus saith) Innocentius 1. ordained the Eucharist to be given to In∣fants, as a Jesuite saith q to wit Maldonatus. All this is ob∣served to prove the Church could not be in the Pope. 2. That the Waldenses were opposers of the pope, whose confession is set downe by rGulielmus Reginaldus Turco-papista: as sVsserus saith, and cast to by t the Jesuite Gretser to Page  236 the end of Peter Pilichdorffius his Treaties contra Waldenses, and u by Reinerus contra Waldenses, Their confession con∣taining a condemning of the popes Supremacy, unwritten Tra∣ditions, worshipping of Images, Invocation of Saints, &c. and all the Articles of popery. We know how well xCal∣vin thinketh of their confession y The slanderous Grtser saith, that Wicliffe renewed their errors and taught this Article. Du debet obedire diabolo. God should obey Satan. But that faithfull witnesse of Christ, hath no such thing in his writtings. Ma∣ny other poynts are objected to the Waldenses, but zThu∣anus saith, Reliqua quae à Waldensius affing untur, per invidi∣am assinguntur. Other lies and false Doctrines are laide upon them, but the aMagdeburgenses set downe faithfully the Articles that they held, which wee owne as the Truth of God.

What bSanderuscCocciusd and Parsonius objected to them that they Taught that carnall cocupiscence was no sin. 2. That all oathes in any case are unlawfull. 3. That the Magistrate may not use the sword. 4. That the Apostles Creed is to be con∣temned these and other calumnies are well refused by Ussere and proved by the Testimony, that Papists gave of the Holy life of the Waldenses, to bee but Lies and meere ca∣lmnies.

These who of old (saith Serarius) f were called Berenga∣riani from Berengarius, are this day called Calvinists, and these who are this day (saythgIoan, Wendelstonus) called Protestants, are novi, sn Grmanici Waldenses. The new Waldenses of Germany. Nec vero (saith hUsser, citing the foresaid Authors) justam al••c causam videre pssimus, quambrem horum majnum pudere nos debcat; we neede not thinke shame of our forbearers the Waldenses. Whether did Berengarius feare Leo the 9. his unjust sentence of excommunication: but contrary to Victor the 3. he did stoutly plead that the Eements were a figure or signe of the body and blood of Christ, Ar. 1056. And before Nicolus the 2. in a Synod at Rome before 113. Bishops, for the space of seven dayes hee pleaded the same cause. So saith AlbericusiDiacon. Cassinens. and kCarolus Signius. Yea, and hee lest behind him in his age multitudes of his followers, Page  237 so as Rome was not able to suppresse the visible Church ever since her Cedar branches did spring up to the Cloudes.

And we know that the Faith of the Councell of Trent, as pressed by Oath prescribed by Pius 4. and by the command of Gregorius 13. was not in the World the 10. age, Ambrosius, Ca∣tharinus, Martinus, Isengrenius, Contarenus, the Sorbonists of Pa∣ris, and the Doctors of Venice, in many substantiall poynts con∣tradicted the Church of Rome: yea lThuanusm and the Bishop of Spalato teach that after the councell of Trent the Reformation spread through the Christian World. In the 12. and 13. ages, the Doctrine of the Waldenses, of Wicliffe and Berengarius did grow, but few did write, (saith nVoetius,) in these times because of heavy persecution, multitudes in Germany Austria, Moravia, Silesia Leiden, Collen, Osenbruge, and many o∣ther parts opposed popery.

Now we say there were multitudes professing the Truth, both of Doctors, Fathers, and witnesses opposing the Roman Church! and what calling the Church of Rome gave to our re∣formers must be measured by the best of the Church consent∣ing to their clig: for wee are not to thinke that all profes∣sed popery, but many of the gu des opposed, many were burdened in 〈◊〉 and yet out of weakenesse durst not professe, because of the 〈◊〉••eanesse. 3. They durst not write and preach ag 〈…〉n of the time. 4. Many were simple, many 〈◊〉.

3. 〈…〉 Luther and Zuinolius had their whole cal∣ling from the 〈…〉 ye think we not that calling no calling, but that it hath that which ssentially constituteth a Ministe. 1. Cj phas entered most crn••ly to the Priest∣hood, by the favour of men, and to bee High-Priest for one yeare contrary to the Law, which ordained the high-priest to remaine for his lifetime. But as oIosephus said pToletusqCajetanrMaldonatsIansonius: yea and our owne writers tCalvinuMarloratxMusculusyRollockzBullinger observe, all was done by the will and lust of men; yet Cajaphas was the high-priest and prophecied, which is a specifick act of a called Prophet. John, Ex. 51. 52. It is said, he prophecied as high-priest. 2. The Scribes and Ta∣iseesPage  238set in Moses chaire, and are to be heard, Mat. 23 1. In so far as they teach Gods Truth, and yet their entry to their calling was corrupt, if it be true that diverse say, that Christ, John 10▪ calleth the Scribes and Pharises. Theeves and Robbers, because they came not in by the doore, but climbed up another way, but how∣ever there was corruption in the way of their comming to the chaire, for they leavened all other the Ordinances of God, and the high priest was entered a false way, the rest of the Rulers could not come, but in a corrupt way. But though Augustinea and bClemens Alexa. expound the place, John 20. of such as want a lawfull calling; but then the place cannot agree with Scribes and Pharisees, which seemeth to fight with the course of the Text. But our Interpeters cBrentiusdBzeRollocus, expound the place of these who preach not Christ soundly, and to be the doore and the foundation, but humane Traditions, and yet had a calling; and the Text saith so much, where v. 9. Salvation is promised to every one who entereth in by Christ the doore, now salvation is not promi∣sed to a man, because hee hath a lawfull calling to the Mi∣nistery; hee may have that and yet be a Child of per∣dition.

3. Wee are no where forbidden in Gods Word to heare Tea∣chers sent and called, but onely Wolves in sheepe skinnes, voyd of all calling, and intruders: for pastors may be antichristian in the manner of the entry, as Cajaphas. 2. In the matter of their Doctrine Teaching some of mens Traditions, in place of Gods Word as Scribes and Pharisees. 3. Yea, and brooke an anti∣christian calling, as prelates doe and have done in Brittain, and yet their Ministery be valid. For that the calling of a Mi∣nister be valid, and his Ministeriall acts not null, it is suffici∣ent that the governing Church give him a calling, either by themselves, their expresse call, their silence, or tacite consen, or their approbation communicating with him in his Ministery, or by these to whom the Church resigned her power, or by these who stand in place of the Church; though prelates in∣vade the place of the Church: yet because first they themselves be pastors and have power to teach and Baptize as pastors called of Christ. Mat. 18. 19. 2. Because they stand for the Church Page  239 the Church approving, or some way by silence consenting (as in the case of Cajaphas entry to the priest-hood) thereunto. these who are baptized of them, are not rebaptized, and these who are ordained pastors by them are not reordained, but have a cal∣ling to the Ministery and doe validly confer a calling upon others. Yea, many of great learning thinke that at the begin∣ning of Reformation thousands being under popery bapti∣zed by Midwives and private persons, were never rebaptized, not that they thinke such Baptisme valid, but where the Sacra∣ment is wanting, ex invincibili ignorantia facti, out of an invin∣cible ignorance of a fact, such that way baptized doe indeed want the Lords Seale; but wee cannot for that say that they are no better then Infidells and unbaptized Turkes and Iewes, because. 1. Their being borne in the visible Church giveth a federall holinesse, as all of Jewish parents had a federall right to circumcision, and were, eatenus, in so far, separated from the wombe. 2. Because their profession of that Covenant where∣of Baptisme is a seale, separateth them sufficiently from Infi∣dells, though they want the seale externall. But our Divines esteeme, and that justly, baptisme administrated by Women, or such as have no calling, to be no baptisme at all; for which let the Reader see aCalvinbBezac the learned Rivetus. We stand not for what dBellarmineeMaldonatusfGretse∣rus and other papists say on the contrary: and also gCajetan and hToletus.

4. Robinsoni and our Brethren acknowledge that the Church of Rome hath true baptisme, for they retaine the essen∣tiall causes of Baptisme, even as the vessells of the Lords house pro∣faned in Babylon may be carried back to the Temple, but if these vessells were broken and mingled with brasse and iron, and cast in another mould they could not obtaine their former place in the Temple. Baptisme is a vessell profaned in Babell, but not broken; but the ministry and priest hood of Rome is like the new melted and mingled vessell, and essentially degenerated from the office of pa∣storship. But I answer, if baptisme be valid in Rome so are the Ministers baptizers, for if the Ministers and priests be essenti∣ally no Ministers, the baptisme administrated by the Romish priests is no Ministery, and all one as administrated by Mid∣wives Page  240 and private persons, who therefore cannot administrate the Sacraments validly in the essentiall causes, because they are essentially no Ministers. If therefore Robinson will have the Romish priest-hood essentially no ministery, by that same rea∣son he must say, baptisme administrated by Romish priests i no baptisme, the contrary whereof he confesseth: otherwise hee must say baptisme administrated, à non habente potestatem, even by Women and private Men, is valid, and cannot be but esteemed lawfull in the substance of the act. 2. These have a ministery essentially entyre who have power under Christ to preach the Gospell and administrate the Sacraments, Matthew 28. 19. The Romish priests have this, and are called to this by the Church.

But saith Robinson. How can England forsake the Church of Rome, and forsake the ministery, which is in the Church, as in the sub∣ject, especially, seeing you teach that a true ministery maketh essenti∣ally a true Church?

I answer, England may well separate from Rome everting the fundamentall parts of Faith, and not separate from Romes baptisme, or ministery, in so farre, as they be essentially the or∣dinances of Christ: and I retort this argument; How can Se∣paratists separate from both us and Rome, and yet retaine the baptisme in both our Church and Rome. 2. A ministery true in the essence may make a Church true 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, in so far; but because of many other substantiall corruptions in Rome, it is a Church which we ought to forsake.

But sayth Robinson, aApostates in the 10. Tribes leaving the Church which was radically at Jerusalem, upon their repentance were readmitted to enter into the Temple, into which no uncircumci∣sed person might enter, but any of the priests following Idolls, were never readmitted to be priests, though they should repent; Therefore the ministery and baptisme are not alike.

I answer, that the true Church was onely at Jerusalem radi∣cally, as, you say, would import that the 10. Tribes revolting from Davids house ceased to be a Church, which is false: Israel though all the Land were in Covenant with God, had circum∣cision and the Passover, and so were a true visible Church, even when they did meete in their Synagogues. The Altar, sacrifices,Page  241Temple, are not the essentialls of a visible Church, they were a Church, and did pray toward the Temple even in Babylon, and were to professe the True God before the heathen, Ierem. 10. 11. 2. There be typicall reasons to hinder men why they cannot be capable of the priest-hood, that did not exclude them from Church state; but this hindereth not but if the seales administa∣ted by a Minister be true seales, then is the Minister thereof cate∣nus, in so far, a true Minister.

He addeth ba Minister may leave off to be a Minister, and be justly degraded and excommunicated, but none ever attempted to unbaptize one who was baptized, nor can he be unbaptized who is baptized.

Answ. That proveth a difference betwixt the ministery and Baptisme, which is not the question; but it proveth not this to be false, if Romes baptisme be lawfull in its essence, so is Romes ministery.