The sovereigns prerogative and the subjects priviledge discussed betwixt courtiers and patriots in Parliament, the third and fourth yeares of the reign of King Charles : together with the grand mysteries of state then in agitation.

S^r. BENJAMIN RUDDIERDS Speech.

Mr. Pym

I Did not think to have spoken again to this Bill, because I was willing to believe that the forwardness of this Committee would have prevented me, but now I hold my self bound to speak, and to speak in earnest. In the first year of the King, and the second conven∣tion I first moved for the increase and inlarging of poor Ministers li∣ings, I shewed how necessarie it was that it had been neglected, this was also commended to the House by his Majestie, there were as (now) many accusations on foot against scandalous Ministers, I was bolde to tell the House that there were scandalous livings, which were much the cause of the other livings of 5. Marks, of 5. l. a year, that men of worth and of parts would not be musled up to such pittances, that there were some places in England which were scarce in Christendom, where God was little better known then amongst the Indians. I ex∣ampled it in the utmost skirts of the North, where the prayers of the common people are more like Spells and Charms then devotions, the same blindeness and ignorance is in divers parts of Wales, which many of that Countrey doth both know and lament.

I declared also, that to plant good Ministers was the strongest and surest means to establish true Religion, that it would prevail more against Papistry, then the making of new Laws, or executing of old, that it would counterwork Court, Conivence, and Luke-warm accom∣modation, that though the calling of Ministers be never so glorious within, the outward poverty will bring contempt upon them, espe∣cially amongst those, who measure men by the ounce, and weigh them by the pound, which indeed is the greatest part of men.

Mr. Pym, I cannot but testifie how being in Germany I was exceed∣ingly scandalized to see the poor stipendarie Ministers of the Reformed Churches there dispised and neglected, by reason of their pover∣ty, being otherwayes very grave and learned men. I am afraid this is a part of the burthen of Germany, which ought to be a warning to us.

I have heard many Objections and difficulties, even to impossibili∣ties against this Bill, to him that is unwilling to go, there is even a Bear, or Lion in the way. First let us make our selves willing, then will the way be easie and safe enough.

I have observed that we are alwayes very eager and fierce against Papistry, against scandalous Ministers, and against things which are not so much in our power. I should be glad to see that we did delight as well in rewarding as in punishing, and in undertaking matters with∣in our own reach, as this is absolutely within our power: Our own du∣ties are next us, other mens further of. I do not speak this, that I do

mislike the destroying, or pulling down of that which is ill, but then, let us be as earnest to plant and build up that which is good in the room of it; for why should we be desolate? The best and the greatest way to dispell darkness and the deeds thereof is to let in light, we say that day breaks, but no man can ever hear the noise of it, God comes in the still voice, let us quickly mend our Candlesticks, and we can∣not want lights.

I am afraid this backwardness of ours will give the adversary occa∣sion to say, that we chuse our Religion, because it is the cheaper of the two, that we would willingly serve God with somewhat that cost us naught. Believe it M^r. Pym, he that thinks to save any thing by his Religion but his Soul, will be a terrible looser in the end, we sow so sparingly, and that is the reason we reap so sparingly, and have no more fruit. Me thinks whosoever hates Papistry, should by the same rule hate covetousness, for that's Idolatry too, I never liked hot pro∣fessions and cold actions, such a heat is rather the heat of a distemper and disease then of life and saving health.

For scandalous Ministers, there is no man shall be more foreward to have them sincerely punnished then I will be, when Salt hath lost its savour, fit it is to be cast on the unsavory place the dunghill. But Sr. let us deal with them as God hath dealt with us: God before he made man, he made the World, a handsome place for him to dwell in, so let us provide them convenient livings, and then punish them on Gods name, but till then, scandalous livings cannot but have scan∣dalous Ministers. It shall ever be a rule to me, that where the Church and Common-wealth are both of one Religion, it is comely and de∣cent that the outward splendor of the Church should hold a propor∣tion, and participate with the prosperity of the temporal State, for why should we dwell in houses of Cedar and suffer God to dwell in Tin? It was a Glorious and Religious work of King Iames, and I speak it to his unspeakable Honour, and to the praise of that Nation, who (though that Countrey be not so rich as ours, yet are they Richer in their affections to Religion) within the space of one year, he caused to be planted Churches through all Scotland, the Highlands and the Boarders, worth 30. l. a year a piece, with a house and some gleab belonging to them, which 30. l. a year considering the cheapness of the Countrey, and the modest fashion of Ministers living there, is worth double as much as any where within a 100. miles of London, the printed Act and Commission whereby it may be executed, I have here in my hand delivered unto me by a Noble Gentleman of that Nation, and a worthy Member of this House Sir Francis Stuart.

To conclude, although Christianity and Religion be established generally throughout this Kingdom, yet untill it be planted more particularly I shall scarce think this a Christian Common-wealth, seeing it hath been moved and stirred in Parliament, it will lye hea∣vy

upon Parliaments, untill it be effected. Let us do something for God here of our own, and no doubt God will bless our proceedings in this place the better for ever hereafter. And for my own part I will never give over solliciting this cause as long as Parliaments and I shall live together.