Twenty-two select colloquies out of Erasmus Roterodamus pleasantly representing several superstitious levities that were crept into the Church of Rome in his days.

THE Abbot, and the Learned WOMAN. (Book 16)

COL. XVI. (Book 16)

An Abbot gives a Lady a Visit; and finding Latin and Greek Books in her Chamber, gives his Reasons against womens meddling with Learning. He professes himself to be a greater lover of Pleasure, than Wisdom: and makes the Ignorance of Monks, to be the most power∣ful reason of their Obedience.

ANTRONIUS, MAGDALIA.

An.

THis House methinks is stran∣gely Furnisht.

Ma.

Why? Is't not well?

An.

I don't know what you call Well; but 'tis not so proper, methinks, for a Woman.

Ma.

And why not •• pray ye?

An.

Why what should a Woman do with so many Books?

Ma.

As if you that are an Abbot, and a

Courtier, and have liv'd so long in the world, had never seen Books in a Ladies Chamber before.

An.

Yes, French ones I have; but here are Greek and La∣tin.

Ma.

Is there no Wisdom then, but in French?

An.

But they are well enough however for Court-Ladies, that have nothing else to do, to pass away their time withall.

Ma.

So that you would have only your Court-Ladies to be women of Vnderstand∣ing, and of Pleasure.

An.

That's your mistake now, to couple Vnderstanding with Pleasure: for the One is not for a Woman at all; and the Other is only for a Woman of Quality.

Ma.

But is it not every Bodies business to Live well?

An.

Beyond all question.

Ma.

How shall any man live Comfortably, that does not live Well?

An.

Nay rather how shall any man live Comfortably that does?

Ma.

That is to say, you are for a Life that's Easie, let it be never so Wicked.

An.

I am of Opinion, I must confess, that a Pleasant Life is a Good Life.

Ma.

But what is it that makes ones Life Pleasant? Is it Sense, or Conscience?

An.

It is the Sense of Outward Enjoyments.

Ma.

Spoken like a Learned Abbot, tho' but a Dull Philosopher. But tell me now, what are those Enjoyments you speak of?

An.

Money, Honour, Eating, Drinking, Sleeping; and the Liberty of doing what a man has a mind to do.

Ma.

But what if God should give you Wisdom, over and above all the rest? Would your life be ever the Worse for't?

An.

Let me know first, what it is that you call Wisdom.

Ma.

Wisdom is a Knowledge that places the Felicity of Reasonable Nature in the Goods of the Mind; and tells us that a man is neither the Happier, nor the Better, for the External Advantages of Blood, Honour, or Estate.

An.

If That be it, pray'e make the best of your Wisdom.

Ma.

But what if I take more delight in a Good Book, then you do in a Fox-Chase, a Fudling-bout, or in the shaking

of your Elbow? Will you not allow me then to have a Pleasant Life on't?

An.

Every one as they like, but it would not be so to me.

Ma.

The que∣stion is not what Does, but what Ought to Please you.

An.

I should be loth, I do assure you, to have my Monks over Bookish.

Ma.

And yet my Husband is never better pleas'd than at his Study. Nor do I see any Hurt in't, if your Monks would be so too.

An.

Marry hang 'em up as soon; It teaches 'em to Chop Logique, and makes 'em Vndutifull. You shall have them expostulating presently, appealing to Peter, and Paul, and Prating out of the Canons and Decre∣tals.

Ma.

But I hope you would not have them do any thing that Clashes with Peter and Paul tho'?

An.

Clash or not Clash; I do not much trouble my head about their Doctrine. But I do naturally hate a Fellow that will have the last Word, and Reply upon his Superiour. And betwixt Friends, I do not much care neither to have any of my People wiser than their Master.

Ma.

'Tis but your being wise your self, and then there's no fear on't.

An.

Alas! I have no time for't.

Ma.

How so, I beseech you?

An.

I'm so full of Business.

Ma.

Have you no time, do you say, to apply your self to Wisdom?

An.

No, not a single minute.

Ma.

Pray'e, what hinders you; if a body may ask the question.

An.

Why, you must know, we have devilish long Prayers; and by that time I have look'd over my Charge, my Horses, my Dogs, and made my Court, I have not a Moment left me to spare.

Ma.

Is this the mighty Business then that keeps you from looking after Wisdom?

An.

We have got a Habit of it; and Custom you know, is a great matter?

Ma.

Put the Case now that it were in your power to transform your self, and all your Monks into any other Animals; and that a body should desire you to turn your Self in∣to

to a Hunting-Nag, and your whole Flock into a Herd of Swine, would you do't?

An.

No, not upon any terms.

Ma.

And yet this would secure you from having any of your Disciples wiser than your self.

An.

As for my People; I should not much stand upon it what sort of Brutes they were, provided that I might still be a Man my self.

Ma.

But can you accompt him for a Man, that neither is Wise, nor has any Inclination so to be?

An.

But so long as I have wit enough for my own Business—

Ma.

Why so have the Hoggs.

An.

You talk like a Philosopher in a Petticoat, methinks.

Ma.

And you, methinks, like something that's far from it. But what's your quarrel all this while to the Furniture of this House?

An.

A Spinning-wheel, or some Instrument for Good Huswifery were more sutable to your Sex.

Ma.

Is it not the Duty then of a House-keeper to keep her Family in Order, and look to the Education of her Children?

An.

'Tis so.

Ma.

And is this office to be discharg'd without Understanding?

An.

I suppose not.

Ma.

This Understanding do I gather from my Books.

An.

But yet I have above Threescore Monks under my Care, and not so much as one Book in my Lodgings.

Ma.

They are well Tutor'd the mean while.

An.

Not but that I could endure Books too, provided they be not Latin.

Ma.

And why not Latin? 'Tis not a Tongue for a Woman.

Ma.

Why, what's your Exception to't?

An.

'Tis not a Language to keep a Woman Honest.

Ma.

Your French Romances, I must confess, are great Provoca∣tives to Modesty.

An.

Well, but there's something else in't too.

Ma.

Out with it then.

An.

If the Women do not understand Latin, they are in less danger of the Priests.

Ma.

But so long as you take ••are that the Priests themselves shall not understand Latin; where's the Danger?

An.

'Tis the Opinion

of the Common People however, because it is so Rare a thing for a Woman to understand Latine.

Ma.

Why, what do you talk to me of the People? that never did any thing well? Or of Custom? that gives Autho∣rity to all Wickedness. We should apply our selves to that which is good, and turn that which was un∣usual, unpleasant, and perhaps scandalous before, into the Contrary.

An.

I hear you.

Ma.

Is it not a laudible Quality for a German Lady to speak French?

An.

It is so.

Ma.

And to what end?

An.

That she may be conversation for those that speak French.

Ma.

And why may not I as well learn Latin? to fit my self for the Company of so many Wise, and Learned Authors; so many Faithful Counsellors and Friends.

An.

But 'tis not so well for Women to spend their Brains upon Books, unless they had more to spare.

Ma.

What you have to spare I know not; but for my small Stock, I had much ra∣ther employ it upon honest Studies, than in the Mumbling over of so many Prayers, like a Parrot, by Rote; or the Emp••ying of so many Dishes, and Beer-Glasses till Morning.

An.

But much Learning makes a man mad.

Ma.

Your Topers, Drolls, and Buffoons are an Entertainment no doubt to make a bo∣dy Sober.

An.

They make the time pass merrily a∣way.

Ma.

But why should so pleasant Company as the Authors I converse with make me Mad then?

An.

'Tis a common saying.

Ma.

But yet the Fact it self tells ye otherwise; and that Intemperate Feasting, Drinking, Whoring, and Inordinate Watching, is the ready way to Bedlam.

An.

For the whole World I would not have a Learned Wife.

Ma.

Nor I an Vnlearned Husband. Knowledge is such a Blessing, that we are both of us the Dearer one to another for't.

An.

But then there's so much Trouble in the getting of it; and we must Die at last

too.

Ma.

Tell me now, by your Favour, if you were to march off to morrow, whether had you rather die a Fool, or a Wise Man?

An.

Ay; if I could be a Wise Man without Trouble.

Ma.

Why? there's nothing in this World to be gotten without it; and when we have gotten what we can, (tho with ne∣ver so much difficulty) we must leave it behind us in the Conclusion: Wisdom only, and Virtue except∣ed, which we shall carry the Fruit of into another World.

An.

I have often heard that One wise Wo∣man is two Fools.

Ma.

Some Fools are of that Opi∣nion. The Woman that is truly wise does not think her self so; but she that is not so, and yet Thinks her self so, is Twice a Fool.

An.

I know not how it is; but to my Fancy, a Packsaddle does as well upon an Ox, as Learning upon a Woman.

Ma.

And why not as well as a Mitre upon an Ass? But what do you think of the Virgin Mary?

An.

As well as is possible.

Ma.

Do you not think that she read Books?

An.

Yes; but not such Books as yours.

Ma.

What did she read then?

An.

The Canonical Hours.

Ma.

To what purpose?

An.

For the service of the Bene∣dictines.

Ma.

Well, and do you not find others that spent their time upon Godly Books?

An.

Yes; but That way is quite out of Fashion.

Ma.

And so are Learned Abbots too. For 'tis as hard a matter now a days to find a Scholar amongst them, as it was for∣merly to ••ind a Blockhead: nay, Princes themselves in times past were as Eminent for their Erudition, as for their Authority. But 'tis not yet so rare a thing neither, as you Imagine, to find Learned Women; for I could give you out of Spain, Italy, England, Germany, &c. so many Eminent Instances of our Sex, as if you do not mend your Manners, may come to take Possession of your very Schools, your Pulpits, and your Mitres.

An.

God forbid it should ever

come to That.

Ma.

Nay, do you forbid it? for if you go on at the rate you begin, the People will sooner endure Preaching Geese, than Dumb Pastors. The World is come about ye see, and you must either take off the Vizour, or expect that evey Man shall put in for his part.

An.

How came I to stumble upon this Woman! If you'l find a time to give me a Vi∣sit, you may promise your self a better Entertain∣ment.

Ma.

And what shall That be?

An.

Wee'l Dance, Drink, Hunt, Play, Laugh.

Ma.

You have put me upon a laughing Pin already.