The English nonconformity as under King Charles II and King James II truly stated and argued by Richard Baxter ; who earnestly beseecheth rulers and clergy not to divide and destroy the land and cast their own souls on the dreadful guilt and punishment of national perjury ...

CHAP. LVII. Of the Reasons for Conformity.

L.

NOW I will tell you what I hear said against your Non-Conformity, and I will give you leave to answer the Obje∣ctions as we go on.

Obj. I. It's commonly said, that you are Fanatick persons that build all your dissent on your own private Spirits, and pretended Impul∣ses and In spirations.

M.

Have I pleaded with you any such Impulses or Inspirations, as the Reasons of our Dissent? Is there any such thing in above 100 Books that I have written? Did we use any such Argu∣ment in our Dispute with the Bishops? but the Papists call every mans Faith that is his Own, and not taken meerly on trust as the Churches Faith, by the Name of a Private Spirit.

L.

Obj. II. They say you make a Schism and Stir for meer tristes and things indifferent, viz. Ceremonies and Liturgy; confessing that they are not unlawful.

M.

1. And what if they say that we are Turks or Heathens, or have Horns and are Brutes, what remedy have we? To their honour be it spoken, we would not hope to confute them.

2. Do you not know that so far are we from this, that even under the old easier Impositions, we protested to the Bishops in our Petitions for Peace, That we would yield to any thing but Sin a∣gainst God, and we endeavoured to prove Conformity sinful? And do they well agree with themselves, when Dr. Stilling fleet saith, that I would represent Conformity such as should make them seem a company of Perjur'd Villains?

3. I pray you tell me, whether the 52. Points now opened by me, be nothing but Liturgy and Ceremonies, and whether you take them all to be things indifferent. Is it not an odd sort of Accusers that we have, that sometimes say we suspect the Nation of common Perjury, and the Church of Subverting, Corruption, and overthrow of Discipline, and Excommunicating Christs Faithful Servants; and shortly after say, We Dissent only about things Indifferent? God have mercy on those miserably Souls that take such things for Indifferent.

4. Who is it troubles the Land with their things Indifferent? Is it we? Did we devise them? Do we impose them on any,

and say, Vse our things indifferent, or we will Silence you, or Excom∣municate you, and lay you in Iayl with Rogues? Be such things im∣posed as Indifferent?

L.

III. They say you hold your Opinions in obstinate wilfulness, and have no Reason to give for them, and therefore are not to be born with as weak Brethren.

M.

So said the Arians of the Orthodox, and the Heathens of the Christians. It's a fine World when ignorant ungodly Lads are heard tell such men as were Dr. Reignolds, Iohn Fox, Amesius, Blondel, Dailee, Chamier, &c. We can't allow you so much as the esteem of weak Brethren: I do not think but some of their School boys might soon be taught by a Bishop to say thus to their Masters.

2. But do all the young Clergy that can talk thus, shew us by any good evidence, that in other things they are so much Wiser & Learneder than the Dissenters? Are they all of greater Learning than Iohn Reignolds, or better Hebricians than Hugh Broughton, or better Logicians than Sadeel, or Ramus, or Sohnius, or of greater Reading than Blondel, &c.

3. Do they know us better than we our selves? We offer our Oaths that we hold what we do by the Cogency of appearing E∣vidence, and are willing to know the truth.

4. Have I here and elsewhere given no Reasons for our Dis∣sent? Have they answered my Treatise of Episcopacy, my First and Second Plea for Peace, my Apology, my Treatise of the Terms of Church-Concord, or any one thing that I have written for our Cause, save two or three by disputes, which when I have vindi∣cated, they have let fall the Disceptation? What front have these men then that say we Dissent without giving Reason for it? But you know how long the Press was shut against our Writings; and yet then they that would not endure us to Speak, accused us for being Silent.

L.

Obj. IV. They say you are Non-Conformists meerly to make good your former Errours, because you will not confess that you did amiss, but will make the People justify you.

M.

1. What are those Errours? If it be our dislike of any of the things before described, I confess it is because we will not renounce them: If it be an errour to be against their Church-corruptions, and cruel Excommunications, and denying Chri∣stendom to the Seed of the Faithful, and Communion to faithful

Christians, I confess we will not recant these errours, till they have better proved them such. The Papists that swarm with Errours, as a Beggar doth with Lice, yet burn the Prote∣stants as for Errour.

2. I pray you wish those infallible men, that in the ditch of dirt are delivered from all the uncleanness of errour, to send only those those that are without errour to cast the first stone at us, or those that have no worse errour than ours to silence, excommunicate and destroy us.

3. Have we given them no reasons of our dissent?

4. Do they not know that the argument that hath brought us all into the case that we are in, was thus given us 1664. and oft since in Print? [If we abate them any thing, they will say that our Church was faulty, and needed that Reformation] who then is it that hath divided us to avoid confession of any former faultiness? Tho' good Bishop Hall pronounceth a heavy Sentence on them that will justify the miscarriages of the Prelates.

L.

Obj. V. They say that you took part with the Parliament against the King, and involved the Land in Blood, and have still the same rebellious principles.

M.

1. I confess there were some among us that were of the mind of Hooker, Bilson, Grotius, Barclay, and the common sort of Casuists, Politicks, &c. and that thought that as in a doubt a∣bout Physick, the College of Physicians were most to be trusted, so in a doubt about Law, the Parliament had been most cre∣dible: And when the Irish had murdered two hundred thousand Protestants falsly pretending that they had the Kings Commissi∣on, and threatning to finish their works in England, there were many formerly tempted to fly in fear to the Parliament for safe∣ty; being ignorant that the Kings bare word, notwithstanding the Papists strength and interest, was more to be trusted with our Laws, Lives and Religion, than all the Lawyers, Courts and Pariament; and that if all the Protestants in England had been used as those in Ireland, they ought to have died patiently, un∣less the killers would have given them time to send to the King

to know whether he would have them live or die: They were ignorant that a Lord Proprietor may do with his own as he list. Who accuseth the owner for killing his own Sheep? But the times of this ignorance are past: The Long Parliament that made the Act of Vniformity cured it: And shall not the Act of Oblivion be permitted to reconcile us, and continue our peace?

2. But, Sir, Who be they that were thus deceived? I told you, 1. That of near ten thousand that had Churches under the Parliament and Cromwel, there was but two thousand that refu∣sed to Conform: And is not seven thousand Conformists more than two thousand Dissenters. 2. Many that were in the Parlia∣ment's Army Conformed; and some that were for the Kings Death, when the generality of those called Presbyterians abhor∣red it, and the Engagement; and brought in the King on rea∣sons of meer Conscience.

3. I have told you that we will take it thankfully, if only those were silenced that had any hand in that War, believing that it will not now be twenty Ministers in England. And why are the rest that were Boys at School, accused for other Mens opini∣ons or actions? For the time to come, you need not fear them. I heard some tell the Members of the Long Parliament that call∣ed them Rebels for saying, that a Parliament may use defensive Arms against the Kings Commissioned Souldiers; that if that would serve, they would promise, that if the King would but send a dozen Irish-men to kill them all in the house, they would never be guilty of taking Arms to defend them, nor perswading any else to do it.

L.

Obj. VI. But they say that these Non-Conformists, tho' they had no hand in the late War, yet have the same Principles that caused it, and that is, Non-Conformity.

M.

This is an argument a baculo ad angulum: A man is a∣gainst the Cross in Baptism, or a Lay-Chancellor's excommunica∣ting Men for a Ceremony, &c. ergo he is against the King, and for Rebellion. The other side say, that the Irish Principles and the Popish were the cause; and must we therefore conclude all Irish or Papists to be against the King? They were Papists that raised the Wars on both sides, in the aforesaid days of King William, K. Stephen, H. 1. and H. 3. and Ed. 2. and Rich. 2. and H. 6. and Rich. 3. and Ed. 4. &c. Doth it follow that all rapists are rebels?

2. But I have elsewhere fully proved that the Parliament when that War began, were of the Church of England, and Confor∣mists; and it's strange that any should have the face to deny it, while so many are yet living that know them: Whitlocke tells us in his Memorials, that they voted, that every County should have a Bishop and his Presbytery: And were those then against Episco∣pacy? One would think that a County should be big enough to keep Episcopacy from dwindling to nothing; every Bishop of old had but one City: Many Counties have ten, or near twen∣ty Towns that were then called Cities. But when Papists dare say that all are against Kings that are against the Pope, who is the ruler and deposer of Kings; it's no wonder if every Bishop, or Chancellor, or Official, &c. will say, If you be not for us you are against the King; since all are sworn against altering the Church-Government before that of the State.

Mr. Martin that lost an arm in the Kings service in the War, lay in Gaol at Warwick, for preaching when silenced; and Mr. Francis Bampfield that was against the Parliament's War, lay seven years in Gaol for preaching as a Non-Conformist, and died in New-gate. Non-Conformists that have been, and are most for the King, do suffer as much as others.

3. Read my second Plea for Peace, in which I declare our po∣litical Principles; and tell us what you there dislike.

L.

Obj. VII. But why do you refuse to renounce all the Obli∣gation of the Covenant, if you are not disloyal?

M.

If you reduce your objection to an argument, it must run thus; (All those are disloyal to the King who think that this vow binds them to be against Prophaneness, Popery or Schism, or to endeavour any amending or alteration of the prelatical way of Church-Government: But, &c. I deny the Major. Is he an honourer of the King that dare affirm this?)

We are ready to renounce all Obligation from that or any o∣ther Covenant, to any disloyalty what ever.

L.

Obj. VIII. They say that your Preaching is unnecessary, there being Ministers enough without you, and therefore that you Praech but to keep up a party, and your own Reputation and Interest in them.

M.

And I think that Priest fitter for tears than for disputes, that so little knoweth England, or the work of the Office they undertake: If I know the Church that hath such a Pastor, I shall

be past doubt that they have need of help. I would as soon be∣lieve him if he undertook to build a Castle alone, and said he had no need of help; or that forty thousand of the poor of Lon∣don have no need of relief, and that it is rebellion to relieve them; as that the forementioned two hundred thousand have no need of teaching or Ministerial help for their souls.

L.

Obj. IX. There are some that have written that it is Pride and Covetousness that makes you Non-Conformists to seem godly, and to get livings for your Sons.

M.

Satan is so impudent a disputant, that I am aweary of answering him, tho' in self-defence: If it be pride to be scorn'd and toss'd about as Rogues, why will these humble Lord Bishops and Masters so be-rogue us to make us proud? Men use to take down that which feeds their enemies pride; I pray get them to restore us from poverty, and prisons, and scorns, and slanders, to take down our pride.

And for covetousness get them one year to take our turns, to have all their Goods and Books taken away, on the penalty of 40 l. for every Sermon, and that to be levied on their hearers which they cannot pay, and in this case to ly in Gaol, and tell us when they have tried it whether it gratified their covetous∣ness.

As to mens Charity to our selves or Sons; 1. I have said here∣tofore that the 2000 that were ejected were fit for Bedlam, if they would go out and suffer, that so forty Mens Sons that conform against their Fathers wills, might get benefices. 2. They will take it for a disgrace to their Church, if we should not grant that the Lords, Knights, Rich Men and Patrons, are far more of their Church, than of Dissenters; and therefore liker to pre∣ferr Conformists Sons, than others: And a Living for the Fa∣ther, another for the Son, is more than a possibility for one. But brazen-faced impudence cannot be confuted.

L.

Obj. X. They say you are meer Hypocrites, that have learnt a shew of Holiness and Iustice, but have false, proud, self-conceited, rebellious Hearts.

M.

And truly we cannot confute them any otherwise than by an appeal to the Judge of Hearts: We cannot shew them our Hearts: And if they say that they see and know them, let Men believe them as they see cause. They did not craftily so much to praise our out-side; for those that take them not for Gods will hardly believe that they see any deeper.

But as far as I understand, their meaning is, That no man on earth is truly honest and godly; and therefore all are Hypo∣crites that profess it. And so they confess themselves Hypo∣crites in professing Christianity, if Professing be the mark of Hypocrites.

L.

Obj. XI. They say that you are Rebels and Schismaticks a∣gainst the Church, and that's as bad as Murder, or Adultery; and so you are more vicious than they.

M.

It's well they made their Chancellours, Officials, Commis∣saries, &c. the Church first: I confess I am not unapt to believe that they take it for worse than Adultery, Murder, Persecution or Perjury, to cross their wills and worldly interest. And if calling themselves (the Church) would make any needy or ambitious pack of men, the masters of all mens consciences, and persons, and estates, I should not wonder if more than Papists and Prelatists strove to be called, The Church.

L.

Obj. XII. But they say all antiquity condemneth Schism, and you are they that will not suffer the Church to have Vnity and Peace, in disobeying the Bishops; and Rebellion is as the sin of Witchcraft, and disobedience as Idolatery.

M.

The sence of this last Clause is [God calls it like Witch∣craft and Idolatry to Obey Him, and Rebel against His Laws: Ergo it is like Witchcraft and Idolatry not to Rebel and Disobey Him if Bishops command us.] Prove the consequence.

2. Do not Papists call them Schismaticks and Hereticks too, as long and as loud as they call us so? And will this prove them such indeed? We appeal to the common reason of mankind, whe∣ther they that make a multitude of sinful Canons, to persecute Christs Church and Servants, and add to his Laws an hundred forty one of their own with inhumane penalties, casting out those that obey them not, be not rather Schismaticks than they that say, We will hold Concord in all that Christ commandeth or his Apostles practised, but we dare not obey you against God. Read my Search for the Schismaticks, and The English Schismatick Detected and Confuted, and then blame the Schis∣matick and spare not.

L.

Obj. XIII. But they say that it is but a company of self-conceited, bad, rebellious People that befriend or fellow you, and the sober People are for them.

M.

These things are unfit matter for a controversy with any English-Men of this age, but only with Foreigners and Stran∣gers. I thought once it would never have been so hard to know good Men from bad, as these would make it. But I re∣member how bad Christ and his Apostles were thought by their persecutors. Wherein doth such mens badness lie? In not coming to their Churches? Thousands do, and the rest go to other Churches: But thousands of our adversaries go to none, but very rarely.

Is it in any other Vice? Why do they then charge them with avoiding Vice in Hypocrisie? And what is that Vice? Here are, some say, many hundreds that practise Physick in London: The Posts, Walls, and Gates are stickt with Physicians offers to cure the Lecherous pox: To day I read Kirleu's Bill, that saith he hath cured eight hundred of that disease. I dare bet with you all the Money I have, that if you enquire, not eight, or perhaps two of that eight hundred were Puritans, or such as you now cast out for Non-Conformists, (unless you call Papists or such other, Non-Conformists) except any of them were Wives that catcht it of Husbands that are of your Church or Parishes and not of us, or Husbands that catcht it of such conformable (or Papist) Wives. But of these things we need no defence.

3. But if our hearers be bad, they have the more need of teaching; and whether more are converted from ignorance, sensuality, worldliness and prophaneness, by their teaching or ours, ask others and not us.

L.

Obj. XIV. But they say that it's by you that we are in dan∣ger of Popery, because you keep up their hopes of a toleration by your di∣visions weakning us.

M.

They may of the two say more probably it is we that bring in Prelacy, Lay Excommunicators, Ceremonies, Liturgies: For of the two, we have done less against these than against Po∣pery, and stand not at so great a distance from them: The im∣pudency of some men is the shame of depraved humane nature. They know that it is for being more against Popery than they are, that our ruine is so implacably endeavoured. They know that the Papists are our chiefest prosecutors, thinking that if they could destroy us as their greatest adversaries, they should bring the Church of England to their will, and that it is but ap∣propriating the name of Popery to the Italian Faction that set the

Pope above Councils, and calling the rest by a better Name, and cut∣ting off a few shreds named by Heylin in the Life of Arch-bishop Laud, and it's done. They know that it is for drawing so near to Popery that the Non-Conformists Dissent from them; and take it for granted that those men that are labouring to bring in Popery, are the forwardest to make this putid accusation of us; and that it hath been their labour these two and twenty years to have forc'd us to yield to an universal toleration, and to petiti∣on for it, that they might bring in Popery, and then say it is we that did it, and that for denying this and being unreconcilea∣ble to Popery, the Papists are so unreconcileable to us, as that nothing will satisfy them but our utter extirpation, of which they would make blind, sensual, debauched, malignant men that call themselves Protestants the instruments. And how many of their pillars have written for a foreign Jurisdiction and defend Grotius, I have told you before. And to this day that Priest that is nearest to Popery, is the bitterest enemy to the Non-Confor∣mists, and most preacheth for their destruction: And these brazen-faced men cannot endure an honest Conformist that doth but preferr Protestants that dissent from their fetters before the Papists: And those Bishops and Arch-bishops and the very Church of England in their times, that were most against Popery, are their scorn and hatred, as you may see in Heylin's reproach of Arch-Bishop Abbot, and the Bishops and Convocation, except six Bishops in his days: And by the base scorns that they now pour out against good Arch-Bishop Grindal, calling such men as would strengthen us against Popery by reconciliation, by the names of Grindalizers and Trimmers, and such as would betray the Church: And how they reproach and use Dr. Whitby for his Protestant Reconciler, and Mr. Bold for his Sermon, and the Au∣thor of the four Pleas of the Conformists for the Non-Conformists, and such others, you know: The Author of the Reflections, and the Samaritan they have not yet found out. Mr. Tho. Beverley feareth them not: The Bishop of Hereford, Dr. Crofts, (the first man that ever I saw go forth with a Troop raised by his Bro∣ther for the King, and his Sermon in my Pulpit the first that e∣ver I heard against the Parliament, when the King was in York∣shire, and he himself had been a Papist, and is still zealous for their Church cause) because he wrote the Book called Naked Truth, to heal us and strengthen us against Popery, they gnash

the Teeth at him; and so they do at Dr. Barlow Bishop of Lincoln, that wrote of the treasonable principles of Papists, tho' these Bi∣shops are too big for them yet to vilify, and openly oppose.

L.

You may be more against Popery than they, and yet bring it in imprudently by dividing us.

M.

Who do you think in your Conscience is liker to bring it in, we or they? Who hath done and suffer'd more to keep it out? We lay down all that we have to that end: They will not part with a Ceremony, or one Oath, or a Re-ordination, or an Excommunication of Christs Members to keep it out; but plainly tell us, that they had rather Popery came in than abate a jott of their Self-made Religion or Impositions, or than such as I should Preach the Gospel.

But I confess I am not able to deny it, that the Non-Confor∣mists may be the occasion of bringing in Popery, by way of An∣tiperistasis; some men hate us and all serious Godliness so much, that they are like enough to be for Popery, because godly men are against it: And I fear lest they that see the Non-Confor∣mists would reform their Prelacy and Church-Courts, and re∣duce them to the Primitive Episcopacy, described by Bishop Vsher, will be so much afraid, lest they lose some of their Wealth and Domination by it, that some of them will hearken to the Papists, that will promise them an Encrease of that which they so esteem. And indeed it is already no strange thing to hear them say, They had rather the Papists came in with Popery, than the Dissenters with their Reformation.

I think ere long you are like to be convinced more effectually than by Writing, which Party is liker to bring in Popery, and to turn Papists. In the mean time I begin to praise Stephen Gar∣diner, and such others, for their Modesty, that when they burnt Cranmer, Ridley, Hooper, Philpot, Rogers, and the rest, that they did not charge them with bringing in Popery, and say we burn you for that.

L.

XV. They say that you stretch the Words of the Oaths, Decla∣rations, Subscriptions, Liturgy and Canons, to an ill sence, by a rigo∣rous Interpretation, which was never the Meaning of the Authors; and on that you ground your Dissent.

M.

1. I hope you will grant, that when the things that men fear (whether justly or mistakingly) no less than deliberate Lying, Perjury, and Contracting by Justification the Guilt of

many hundred thousand Perjuries, and Swearing or Covenan∣ting never to repent or endeavour that the Nation should repent of heinous Church-Corruptions, or amend them, and the nulli∣fying of the Ordination and Ministry of thousands, and Un∣churching almost all the Protestant Churches, and more such like, a man should not play with Matters of this moment, nor take God's dreadful Name in vain, nor sport with the Con∣suming Fire. And I hope you grant, that Words in Caths and Impositions, are to be taken in the properest usual sence, unless the Authors otherwise expound them. And you know that they have been so far from expounding them otherwise, as that these twenty years they have refused it, and in Scotland sen∣tenc'd the Earl of Argyle to die for expounding them as some would have us do. And what do Oaths or Covenants signify, if the Takers may put what sence they will on them, and if the most express Universals, yea, the express Exclusions of all Ex∣ceptions, may be taken in a particular sence with Excep∣tions, such Swearers and Subscribers give their Rules no security. Is it not enough to tell you we will willingly stand to Bishop Sanderson's own Rules in his Excellent Prelections de Iu∣ramento, for expounding Oaths and Promises?

Such as these Expositions of stretchers, make Oaths to be none, viz. [It's unlawful] that is, against the King's Law but not against God's [to take Arms against the King] viz. As King, but say the Papists, when the Pope excommunicates and deposeth him, he is no King, [on any pretence whatsoever,] that is, any unjust pretence, [by his Authority against his Person] viz. It is to be done by Gods Authority and not by his, [or against any Com∣missioned by him,] viz. Lawfully Commissioned, of which we are di∣scerning Iudges. The same I may say of all the rest: As Assenting and Consenting to all things, except many things: Swearing Cano∣nical Obedience in Licitis & Honestis, when we judge ten or twen∣ty Canons, if not the very frame to be Illicita & Inhonesta, &c.

L.

But as you have said that those Great Men, Grotius, and Bi∣shop Jeremy Taylor were for profitable Lying, so you know that Worthy Latitudinarian Dr. who was wont to say, That if false Knaves would turn him out of his Ministry and Living, by en∣snaring Impositions, he would take the Words in the best sence he could subdue them to, whatever the Authors meant; and it was as Lawful for him to defend himself against Knaves with his Tongue, as with his Hands and Sword.

M.

He is newly gone to his Judge: Nobis non licet—I told you that in my Catechism on the Ninth Commandment, I have given unanswerable Reasons against Lying, for any Benefit what∣ever.

Some say that all our Articles of Religion, are but Articles of Peace, and we subscribe not to believe them true, but not to preach against them. At this rate men need not stick at any Oath, and may shake off the Oath of Allegiance, or any other when they have taken it. And if we are thought worthy to be hated, and ruined as Rogues, for refusing self-saving, pruden∣tial, deliberate Lying, and Perjury, when Oaths and Veracity are so much of the security of the Estates, Names, and Lives, of Kings and Subjects, and so necessary to all humane Converse, we patiently commit our Cause to Him that shortly and righte∣ously will determine all.

Notes

• Read the Lord St. Alban's Considerati∣ons of Recon∣ciling and Edi∣fication of the Church of En∣gland, and his Advertisement on the present Church-Controversies, and see whether he thought there was no need of Reformation: And Judge Hales Papers of Religion.