I Thought you would have objected only against Forms and Ge∣stures, and you talk of Matters that affright one at the very stating of the Case: But how are all Lay-men thus obliged?

I have before cited the express words of the Canon: They must be presented and prosecuted if they come not to their Parish-Churches: They must be driven home from all Neighbour-Churches, if it be one that never Preacheth that they go from, and must be Excommunicate at last; the Minister must be sus∣pended that admits them.

But Bishop Gunning's Chaplain saith well, that you may yet privately advise with other Ministers.

I take that from them for a great favour, that they drive us not from all Christian converse, But give us leave to speak privately with more than the Parish-Priest: But even privately it must be no Nonconformist, for they cannot be heard at five Miles distance.

But will you seriously tell me, 1. Whether most Parish-Ministers have not so much Work at home, that they have lit∣tle time to spare for Strangers?

2. Whether as Men provide first for their own Families be∣fore they relieve Neighbours and the Poor; so Ministers will not think themselves bound to do by their own Parishes? and scarce afford the scraps to others?

3. Do you think in Conscience that all Souls, and specially the most Ignorant have not need of a constant Pastor, and the help of his Office, as well as of an occasional Discourse with a Stranger? If not, what have we Parish-Priests for, and why pay we Tythes to them?

But all Places cannòt have profound Casuists, and extraordi∣nary Learned holy Men: Few Churches had an Augustine, a Chry∣sostome, a Basil, or Nazianzen.

All Men cannot have excellent Physicians, nor rich Trades, nor pleasant Dwellings, nor excellent Wives or Servants, &c. Page  164 But I think it's lawful to have the best they can get: Or at least to refuse the intolerable. I had rather trust Nature for my Physician, than an ignorant Quack or a Knave.

But we have many sound and worthy Ministers.

And I perswade none to go from such, if their faithful diligence shew their worth. It is not these that we are speaking of. Are there no other?

The meanest of them speak sound Doctrine: Even those that the Canon forbids to Preach or Expound, do read the Scriptures and sound Homilies.

So can a good Woman or a Child: And an ignorant Man or Woman can read a good Physick or Law-Book. Will you therefore take them for your Physicians or Lawyers? Do you know the case of our Parishes or not? Tell me what you would do your self in this case.

Suppose a poor Sinner is convinced of his great ignorance and dulness, and sinful inclinations, and strong temptations, and finds great difference between a clear Judicious, skilful, serious Minister and others, and yet that the best doth prove too little for his help: This Man dwells in a Parish where in the Pulpit he heareth a young Fellow sometime read a Cento of imperti∣nent shreds, as School-boys make an ignorant Declamation: And sometimes he heareth him tell them what damnable Hypocrites they are, and Schismaticks, that scruple any thing commanded by the Church, and then make long Prayers, and talk religi∣ously to hide it: And in Company he hath not a serious word for a Holy Life, and to prepare Men for another World, but sometimes reviles Puritans, and at best talks of worldly things, or Opinions or Factions in Religion; and perhaps will be Drunk and Rant it with the most Prophane. His Parishioner in Doubts and Trouble of Conscience comes to him for Satisfaction; And the best Answer he can get is, [What Puritan put these Fears or Scruples in your head? If you trouble your mind about such matters you will shortly turn Schismatick or go mad: Trust God, and follow your Business, and be merry. The Scripture is for Divines, and not for such as you; It is above your Capacity.] The Parishioner having no better Answer, goeth no more: And perhaps an hundred or a thousand in the Parish have more need of Pastoral help, than this Man: And in the Pulpit he Preacheth them asleep, Page  165 or into Laughter, or into hatred of Puritans; and out of the Pul∣pit doth drink, and talk, and live as they.

2. Suppose these Men hear the Clergy tell why they Silence and Banish, and render odious such Men as we are: And they think with themselves, we perceive by this that it is not indiffe∣rent what pastors we have: And if these reviled Men be so bad, is our Priest any better, or wise or honester, or more to be trusted?

3. Suppose these poor people had a Teacher 20 or 10 years that is now cast out, whose preaching they found to be clear and edifying, and quickening; that preacht all for Faith, and Hope, and Love, and Holiness, and Peace, and Heaven; and lived in exemplary Charity, Piety, and Righteously and Soberly, and unweariedly taught them with tenderness publickly and from House to House. And the sense and experience of their Souls tells them how great the change of their condition is?

4. Suppose these Men hear the Teacher called Arminian, de∣riding Infusions of the Spirit and Grace, and proving that God worketh on Souls morally by the aptitude of means, and teacheth and changeth Men as rational Creatures?

Can you blame this Man if he conclude [My Soul is more to me than my Life: my Necessity is unquestionable: my Expe∣rience what edifieth me is not to be born down by the scorn of a derider. I am dark and dull, and too bad under the best helps, but alas profit little by an insipid, sleepy or deriding Speech. As no man hath power to tie me to marry an ugly-Scold, or to trust a Fool, or Knave, or Enemy for my Physician; so no man hath power to deprive me of the needful helps to my Salvation, when I can have them.

But they all Preach the same Word of God.

Do you think the mysterious Invisible things of Faith, and the multitude of hard Cases in Obedience, and the many dangerous Distempers of a carnal, worldly, dead Heart, have not need of as skilful a Helper, as the Profession of Law and Physick hath? How vast a difference is there between an ignorant Prater, and a skilful Lawyer or Physician? And as I have more care of my Soul than of my Body, so mens Laws have less power over it.

I do not think the World hath a better Clergy than the Church of England.

I do challenge oft any to name that Nation under Heaven out of the Kings Dominions that hath two thousand worthier Ministers than those that were here silenced, and reviled, and hunted like Rogues. But I pray you tell me,

1. Do you know how many, and what sort of men the Pa∣trons in England are that chuse them? The Conformists oft say that many of them are Simonists: It's well known that many of them are taken for the famousest Papists in the Countrey. Tho' they have the wit and faculty to keep off Legal Conviction, or else to manage their Advowsons by Trustees. And O how well were it with England if none or few of them were Worldlings, Gluttons, Drunkards, Whoremongers, or Haters, or Prosecu∣tors of serious godly men? Is there any Body doubts whether there be such? And tho' good and sober Lords and Gentlemen will promote good and sober men, the propagation of the species is the most natural Appetite; and an evil Tree will bring forth evil Fruit, and a Hater of Godliness is unlike to chuse a godly Pastor. And any man that hath Money, be he never so bad or erroneous may buy an Advowson or Presentation. And must all p•or Souls have no other Pastors than these men will chuse?

And quo jure? how came they by a right to chuse Pastors for all the •and? Did God ever give it them?

The People at first sinfully gave it them, in blind gratitude, for Building and Endowing Temples. But Mens Grant many hun∣dred years ago, being sinful, hath no power to bind our Consci∣ences: Our Fore fathers might give their Lands from their Po∣sterit•; but they could not give away Gods Ordinances, nor the means of our Salvation. If Patrons might ill dispose of Temples and Tythes, that's nothing to prove that they may chuse Pastors for all men against their wills.

But the Bishops have the power of Institution, and they will keep out unworthy Men.

1. Do they de facto keep them out? I told you truly what a company of ignorant drunken Readers I was bred up under till I was thirteen years of Age, or fourteen, and what a sort, were round about us: And yet the Bishops were as good men as any I Page  167 know now. Bishop Morton was our Bishop. If we are so hard∣ly agreed in a notorious matter of Fact, viz. what Pastors multi∣tudes of Parishes now have, it's in vain to dispute of any thing else.

2. When we have told the Conformists what men are Insti∣tuted, their common answer is, that it's long of the Patrons, and the Law, that enableth not the Bishop to keep them out: And that if the Bishop deny Institution to any one that can but say some account of his Faith in Latin, a quare impedit will force him to Institute him. But whether you will lay it on the Bishops want of Power, or their Will, it's no relief to the miserable Peo∣ple.

And that which the Bishop requireth more to Ordination, is but a Certificate of a good Conversation; which I never knew man so Heretical or wicked in all my Life, that could not get from three Ministers.

Would you have Patrons turned out of their right?

No, it is no right of Gods giving to be the sole Choosers of Pastors for men Souls. There is a threefold part in Ministers ad∣mittance. 1. To judge who is fit to be by them Ordained: And this is the Ordainers part.

2. To Chuse or Consent who shall be the Pastor of Mens Souls: And this is the Peoples part.

3. To judge and chuse who shall have the publick Places, Maintenance, Countenance and Toleration: And this is the Ma∣gistrates and Patrons part.

But these three may differ, and it's like will do so; how then shall ever the Churches be provided?

There is nothing in this World without difficulties and in∣conveniences: But on so great a Treasure a threefold Lock is good security; and hath less inconvenience than the way that we are against. It's like necessity will at last make all consent, (as the Cities in Belgium do in their Government.) But if they should not; 1. None can chuse who shall be the Pastor of this or that Church, till the Ordainers consent that he be in general a Mini∣ster in the Church Universal: So that their Consent so far is pre∣vious.

2. If the Patron offer an unfit Man, and the People refuse him, he may offer others: If they continue to disagree, it is but Page  168 let the Patron chuse who shall have the Place and Tythes, and the People chuse who shall be their Pastor.

What confusion will this bring in? Shall one that is no Pastor have the Benefice? and whom shall the People chuse, and where shall they Assemble?

If great Men that should keep Gods Order, will obstinate∣ly break it, it's they that cause the confusion, and inferiors can∣not remedy it. But if you will lay by prejudice and have patience I shall open the case to you.

I. The Magistrate as the Patron of the Church, must see that every place have competent Teaching: And over the meer Ca∣techumens or Auditors, he may appoint who shall chuse these Parish Teachers, and to them as such he may give the publick Place and Maintenance (if Original Dedication to Pastors as such make it not Sacriledge to alienate it.) And these Teachers are bound to Preach, Catechise, and do all that's due to Cate∣chumens.

II. If these men be tolerable, no doubt the generality of the People will chuse them for their Pastors, prudence requiring it; rather than lose the advantage of the Place, and of a counte∣nanced maintained Ministry.

III. If intolerable Men get in, or such as the Flock of Com∣municants cannot submit to, it's most like that the People will for the advantage of the publick Place and Countenance, take some Neighbour Pastor for theirs, and there Communicate, pay∣ing their Tythes at home.

IV. If most chuse the Parish Teacher for their Pastor, and a few Dissenters go to the next Parish Church, the inconvenience will be comparatively small.

V. If any number can consent to no Parish Minister near them, it is but to tolerate their Communion in a place of their own pre∣paring, if the Magistrate find their Principles and Conversation tolerable, and this under Laws of Peace and good Behaviour; and what harm is in all this?

It seems then you take it for unlawful Conformity to take the Pa∣rish Ministers for our Pastors.

No Sir; tho' any Patron chuse them, and obtrude them, to whom God hath given no such right, yet if they be fit or tole∣rable Men, the convenience of Place, Countenance, Mainte∣nance, and Parish Order, will teach Men, as I said, finis gratiâ, in prudence to consent to them. But if such be unfit and into∣lerable, I will have better, if I can. And I take it for unlawful Conformity to take all, or any that are intolerable for our Pastors, because such Patrons chuse them; who I should be loth should chuse my Servants, my Cook, or my Physician. And it's unlawful to give away to a Patron, the Churches right of Electi∣on or Consent, if we can keep it.