A defence of the answer made unto the nine questions or positions sent from New-England, against the reply thereto by that reverend servant of Christ, Mr. John Ball, entituled, A tryall of the new church-way in New-England and in old wherin, beside a more full opening of sundry particulars concerning liturgies, power of the keys, matter of the visible church, &c., is more largely handled that controversie concerning the catholick, visible church : tending to cleare up the old-way of Christ in New-England churches / by Iohn Allin [and] Tho. Shepard ...

CHAP. III. (Book 3)

2 Position.

That it is not lawfull to joyne in Prayer, or receive the Sacraments, where a stinted Liturgie is used: Or, as wee conceive your mea∣ning to bee in this as in the former, &c. viz. where and when that stinted Liturgie is used.

[Reply.] IF we mistake not your judgement and practise both, you have born witnesse against both that you call the rigid separation, and this more moderate also; and wee humbly wish that the moderate doe not degenerate into the rigid ere long; it is very strange if they take not great encouragement upon your grounds.

[Answ.] If you will needs account not joyning in that stinted impo∣sed Liturgy, to bee a moderate separation, wee must confesse, we have witnessed against such separation; yea, not onely con∣formed to that corrupt Worship, but also to divers of the Ce∣remonies thereof, some of us with shame before the Lord may confesse it: But we desire that may be no prejudice to the truth since discovered to us: but wee have ever conceived, that the separation witnessed against, both by your selves and us, have been such as to separate from the Churches of England as no true Churches, the Ministery, as no true Ministery: their separations from corruptions in Doctrine and Worship, their endeavour to enjoy all the ordinances of the Lord Jesus in purity, if wee bee not mistaken, your judgement and practise with ours, have al∣wayes approved; and the question now in hand is not about a new kinde of separation more moderate, from the Churches and Ministery of England; but whether the Liturgy of England be not indeed one of those corruptions in Worship, which you and wee had need reject, as well as the ceremonies, and no longer conforme to the same. And wee heartily wish that the growing endeavours of the godly, after more purity of Worship, and to bee purged from all the pollutions of the man of sinne, bee not too rashly branded with the odium of separation: and breach of peace and unity of the Church. As for degenerating into the rigid separation, wee think you need not feare it, upon our prin∣ciples, no more then upon the common grounds of Non-confor∣mists, and you know what they inferre upon those principles,

now justly it concernes you to consider, as well as 〈◊〉〈◊〉; but as it is truly observed in England, it was the justification and pressing of ceremonies and other corruptions, that drave many to sepa∣ration, not the endeavour of further Reformation; so you may feare, the too too much conformity of Ministers to humane impo∣sitions, and justification of the Liturgie, &c. have and will more dangerously alienate godly minds from your Churches and Mini∣stery, and so drive to separation; then all the principles and pro∣gresse of the godly in wayes of reformations: and wee shall refer it to the judicious and common experience, whether the disco∣very of the corrupt worship in the Liturgy, or contrary confor∣mity to it, be the greater block of offence, and strengthens the hands of the Separatists most, which yet you after object unto us.

Wee suppose the Worthies of this renowned Parliament, to∣gether with those of the reverend Assembly, would not so soone have removed the whole frame and fabrick of this Book, nor wholly stopped up this pit, if building of battlements about it, and keeping watchmen neare it, to bid passengers take heed, had been the readiest way to cure separation: nor doe wee thinke that this reverend man of God, would have been in more jealousie and feare of us (if hee had considered how tenderly we returned our answer to the question) then of those faithfull witnesses in Scotland, who separated their lives into the hands of death, rather then communicate in the use of this Booke; and yet wee thinke they deserve a better place, then to bee ranked so neare to the rigid separation; notwithstanding for our selves we are heartily thank∣full for what he humbly wisheth, and for his jealousie over us so farre as it is godly; but so farre as such wishes cast a cloud of evill suspition over us in the hearts of others, as if we were going faster then we knew where to stay, we wish humbly such words had been spared till some other time.

Concerning this distinction, a letter of this subject is cited, printed without the Authors knowledge, that put a difference in∣deed between the reasons of the Separatists proper to them qua ta∣les, and other reasons used by himself, common to others studious of Reformation. To which we answer.

1 That letter acknowledgeth no such distinction of separation, rigid, and moderate, onely (if you will) a separation from Chur∣ches, and separation from the sins and corruptions of Churches, which latter is all we professe.

2 Those Reasons which the letter ascribes to them, qua t•…•…les, will wee suppose bee found in their Books thus farre, that the Prayers, Preachings, Sacraments, &c. are unlawfull, because offe∣red in a false Church by a false Ministery for the subjects of Anti∣christs kingdome.

That there should be no Separatists in the world, because none, it is said none▪ plead against the Booke of Common•…•…prayer as unlawfull, because offered up in a false Church; is strange to us, that this lear∣ned Author should not read or observe the same, exceeding fre∣quently in the Separatists writings; take but a taste in the first pa∣ges of Mr. Smith against Bernard in his parallels, censures, and obser∣vations, his words pag. 9. are these, Hee would prove that an er∣roneous constitution of a Church, is a reall Idol; and the pray∣ers they offer with the prayers of the wicked, comming from that false constitution, are tainted with the Idolatry of that constitu∣tion. And pag. 10. It is Idolatry to offer up service to God in a Church of a false constitution. And pag. 13. Tell mee Mr. Ber∣nard▪ can there be a true Ministery, true baptisme, true faith, true prayer, true preaching and administring the supper, true excom∣munication, in a Church which is falsly constituted? Did the Lord accept the sacrifice of the Church constituted by Jeroboam? so page 14. A Church falsly constituted, is not accepted of God, neither are their actions ecclesiasticall, as prayer, preaching, &c. acceptable in the sight of God. And againe, a false Ministery, Worship, government, may bee in a true Church, through igno∣rance, and the like: but a true Ministery, worship, government cannot possibly bee in a false Church. We thinke it needlesse to recite more testimonies; Aliquando honus dormitat Homerus, A good memory may sometimes fall asleep, and not see that, which is sometimes most obvious and visible. But what other argu∣ments they have, are, or may bee common to others studious of Reformation; as their arguments against ceremonies are common with Non-conformists, and therefore if some of our grounds bee found in them, it doth not follow, they are •…•…afts taken out of the same quiver, and peculiar to them, as you object.

[Reply.] These reasons shall be common to all, that plead for the purity of Gods Ordinances, which were never taken to bee sound and true, either by the Reformed Churches abroad, or by the godly Brethren at home, dead or living, or yet by the most of the Brethren amongst whom they live, and •…•…old society, or by any Minister and society holding the unity of the

Spirit in the hand of peace, th•…•…se 1400▪ years and upward, unlesse within these few dayes, and that by a few onely.

[Answ.] Here is a great colour of Novelty and singularity objected to be in the grounds and reasons of the Letter, used against conformi∣ty to the Liturgy: but it is easie to conceive that the same com∣mon grounds of all Reformers, may be justly carryed on against such further corruptions, as they never •…•…aw: not attending their owne principles in such particulars, as was said before of the first Reformers, that purged out salt, creame, oyle, &c. not the crosse, &c. and so here it may fall out, that as the Lord is pleased to let in more light in this or that particular corruption; so upon common grounds it is rejected, though yet but one or few apply those grounds to such a particular case. Neither here was the number so few as is pretended, when this Reply was drawn up, or else at least, it is much increased of late time, since the Assem∣bly and Parliament in England have so openly in their Directory witnessed against such stinted Formes, and generally the Chur∣ches of Scotland renounced that Liturgy of yours, as a piece of Popery. Besides all the Orthodox Churches in New-England, and Holland, and many godly in England.

[Reply.] As yet wee thinke most of them, that have separated are not so farre gone, as to condemne all our Assemblies as no Churches of Christ.

[Answ.] By this you seeme to insinuate, that notwithstanding our ac∣knowledgement of your Churches and Ministery, wee may justly bee accounted amongst those wee properly call Separatists: but it is but your thought of most of them, without ground, con∣trary to their generall profession in their publique confessions and apologies. And therefore we see no reason of it, or that it toucheth us; but passing these generalls, let us come to the matter more particularly.

[Reply.] Your judgement concerning the Position, you deliver in three Proposi∣tions (for so many they bee for substance) in respect of the persons reading the Liturgie, or the thing in selfe that is read; as if any part of the Liturgie be read (put case some few select prayers onely) by an unable and ungodly Minister, it is unlawfull (say you) for the peo∣ple to joyne in that case. But if unlawfull for the people to joyne, when an ungodly Minister readeth some few select prayers, it is either in re∣spect of the Minister, or the prayers themselves; not of the Prayers themselves, for they be select and choyce, faultlesse, in respect of matter

and manner, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 is taken for granted▪ unlesse th•…•… distribution bee is no purpose; if in respect of the Minister; then it is not lawfull to joyne with such an one, in any ordinance of God whatsoever.

In that you analyse our two Propositions into three, we shall not contend, but follow your method, yet wee cannot but mar∣vaile at the liberty that is taken in stating the first Proposition, both leaving out and adding such things as will not stand with the termes in our Answer; and indeed this is too frequent in divers places of this Reply, which gives a great colour of strength unto the arguments; but when they come to be scanned, it will discover the impertinency of them.

For, 1 Although the Answer distinguisheth of the Liturgie, either of the whole, or of some select prayers which may bee conceived to bee lesse offensive, yet the application of this of select prayers, is onely made in the second proposition of the Answer, no way intended in the first. Neither doth the Answer con∣fesse those prayers, as you say, to bee choyce and faultlesse for matter and manner, but which may bee conceived lesse offensive.

2 Whereas the Proposition is of an unable and ungodly Mini∣ster, such unlearned Idol-Priests that are countenanced and esta∣blished by the Liturgie, and can doe no more then read the same, to the unspeakable hazard and ruine of a multitude of soules; you carry along your arguments onely in the terme of an un∣godly Minister, which leaves out one chiefe ground of our propo∣sition, viz. unable.

To reduce therefore this proposition unto its true state which the answer puts it in, which is thus, If the question bee of joy∣ning in prayer with, and when that whole Liturgie is read, or where that which is used, (viz. though not the whole) is read by an unable and ungodly Minister: wee see not how it can bee lawfull to joyne, &c. where that which is read by an unable and ungodly Minister, cannot have reference to the select prayers, but onely was put in, to reach the whole case, lest any should say, may we not joyne, therefore if they read not all, (as some∣times such doe not, for haste to the Alehouse, Beare-baitings, &c.) And the case is so well known to our selves and others, what the manner of such Priests is, how farre they are from making any choyce of select prayers: or having any skill indeed so to doe; that if any bee more superstitious then others, they would

soonest choose them; so that it was farre from our thoughts to impute it to them, to read the select prayers onely. The question being rightly stated, the argument will halt very much; For wee say, it is unlawfull in both respects, and the rather, when jointly considered; and therefore you should first have justi∣fied the whole Liturgy, or so much as such Idol-Priests use to read to bee lawfull, and also the standing and calling of those men, be∣fore the argument can hold, both which you have wholly left naked without proofe, and argue onely about the lawfulnesse of joyning with an ungodly Minister in the Ordinances of God, which will not reach this case. If one should affirme it is unlaw∣full to goe to Mattens or Evensong, when the whole is read, or that which is read, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 done by a popish Priest, and you should an∣swer then, it is either because of the Prayers or the Priest. Not the first; for the prayers (if select) may bee good, and faultlesse, and not because of the Priest, for then wee may never joyne with an ungodly Minister in the Ordinances of God: The answer would bee very imperfect and impertinent, and just so it is here in the frame of the reason, though the corruptions in that service and this be not alike we grant. But before wee answer to the se∣cond part of your dis-junction, let us consider a little here once for all, the act of the people in joyning with the reading of this Liturgy, or so much of it, as is read usually by such Idol-priests. First, concerning the Liturgy it selfe, if you respect the matter and forme, or manner of it, it would bee too tedious to rip up, what for matter hath been objected by the godly Reformers. Consider but two things objected strongly by Mr. Cartwright against the forme or manner of it. First, that it is taken out of the Popish Masse-book, concerning which hee affirmeth, that although there were nothing in it unlawfull, or against the Word of God, (which saith hee) I wish there were not, yet no Word of God, no rea∣son, nor example of the Ancient Churches, Jewish or Christian, will permit us to use the same formes and ceremonies (viz. with Papists) being neither commanded of God, nor such as there may not bee as good as they, and rather better established, yea, considering how neare the Papists live amongst us, it were more safe to conforme to the Ceremonies of the Turks that are farre off. And this hee speaketh of the forme of Liturgy, as well as Ceremo∣nies, Cartw. reply to Whitgifts answer to the admonition to the Parliament, pag. 131, 132. And although you seeme to make

light of this objection, after page 15. end, yet in a like case, when Whitgift had said, it is not materiall that Deanes, Canons came from the Pope; Cartwright replyeth thus; It is as if hee had said, it skilleth not, if they came out of the bottomlesse pit; for what∣soever commeth from the Pope, who is Antichrist, comes first from the Devill, Cartw. Reply, pag. 204.

Secondly, hee objecteth that absurd manner of chopping and interrupting the prayers, of which Mr. Cartwright saith, That if any man should make such a supplication to a Prince, he would thinke him to make his supplication before hee knew what to ask, or that hee had forgotten some piece of his suit;* 1.1 or that he were distracted in his understanding. Much more might bee added, but wee have onely touched this sore, and in the words of that learned and zealous Reformer, that it may appeare, neither the opinion of that Booke, nor the reasons against it, are so new or proper to the Separatists, as is pretended. Now what comfort can any godly conscience have to joyn in, or conform unto such a form of Worship as this is?

Further consider the administration of the Sacraments, accor∣ding to the Book (as we speak still of joyning in it) who knows not, that such must subject their children to that grosse Idol of the crosse, and see and approve the pollution of Gods Ordinances with the same: and at the Lords table joyne in that Idolatrous gesture of kneeling; and therefore how the godly can joyn law∣fully in the whole, or such parts as those Idol-priests dispense, let all Non-conformists judge; and it is well knowne, how supersti∣tiously precise such are, in pressing all conformity to every ge∣sture and ceremony prescribed in their Booke, which they so idolize, as they have good cause, being that which maintaines them.

Secondly, if wee consider the imposition hereof by the Prelates and late strict pressing thereof upon the people to be present and conforme fully to it, as well as upon Ministers to use it. The ve∣ry yeelding of conformity thereto, doth miserably cast away the liberty purchased by Christ to his Churches, inthrall the Chur∣ches to Antichrist, and lift up the power of Antichrist in his tyran∣nous usurpations upon the Churches of Christ.

Thirdly, we might adde the dangerous consequences and scan∣dals that follow from admitting this Liturgy, which being touch∣ed in our answer to the first Position, we here passe over.

These things considered, it appeares, not onely that there was need to disprove the first part of your disjunction, which you de∣clined in stating the question; but also the truth of the Position it selfe is confirmed. Now let us consider your proof of the second part of your disjunction; which is thus,

[Reply.] If in respect of the Minister, then it is not lawfull to joyn with such on one in any Ordinance of God. For if the Minister make it unlawfull, then all communion in any part of Gods Worship with such Ministers is unlawfull: and so the Churches in all ages of the world, the Pro∣phets, our Saviour Christ, the Apostles, and the faithfull in the Primi∣tive Church, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 in holding communion with such, whe•••• the Priests were dumbe dogs, &c. but we never read that the Prophets, our Saviour Christ, the Apostles did ever forbeare themselves, or warne the faithfull not to communicate with such in the ordinances of Worship. Our Sa∣viour charged the Disciples to beware of the leaven of the Scribes and Phariseas, but never forbad them to communicate with them in the or∣dinances of God.

[Answ.] To this we answer; First, that if you speake to the case in hand of those unable and ungodly Ministers of England, Readers (as they are called) of the Common-service, wee grant it is not law∣full to communicate in a stated way with them, in any ordinance of Worship properly Ministeriall; in any act that private persons may performe, wee may communicate with them, but not in Mi∣nisteriall worke, as Sacraments; for although being imposed on any Church as Ministers, and so received by them, their Ministe∣riall acts are not a nullity; yet if wee speake of the lawfulnesse of such their act of receiving them, then the Church sinneth in choo∣sing them, or being imposed, in receiving them, and submitting to their Ministery, being such as are utterly contrary to the rule of Christ, and rejected of him. And by the like reason the god∣ly sinne in receiving Sacraments, &c. from them, as Ministers of Christ, knowing they intrude into that office, and have no au∣thority by the rule of Christ so to doe. Wee may heare a private gifted Christian prophecy, but if hee intrude without a lawfull calling into the Ministery, we may not receive him, nor approve of him therein.

Cyprians speech is commonly noted, that Plebs maxime habet potestatem vel eligendi dignos Sacerdotes, vel indignos recusandi; yet the occasion of it is not so generally observed, which is this, Plebs obsequen•…•… praeceptis Dominicis, Deum me•…•…uens, à peccatore proposito

separare se debet, nec se ad sacrilegia sacerdotis sacrificia iniscere, cum ipse maxime habet potestatem eligendi, &c. that is, the people obser∣ving divine precepts, and fearing God, ought to separate them∣selves from a wicked Minister, neither joyne themselves to the sa∣crifices of a sacrilegious Priest, seeing they chiefly have power of choosing worthy Ministers, and rejecting unworthy.

Secondly, wee see no demonstrative argument that the Priests and Pharisees were wholly unable for the worke of those times, as these wee speake of are for—: though the Priests, Esay 56.10. were dumb dogs that cannot barke; yet it seemes by the place to be meant actually, rather then habitually, through their slumbe∣ring or security there mentioned, not telling the people of their sinnes, nor warning them of judgements, rather then of their totall inability. Men of good parts and able gifts may be actually such dumb dogs, as seldome preach, or never to purpose, and bee spiritually ignorant through much prophanenesse, yet not totally deprived of common gifts: It is most evident that the Pharisees were blinde, yet taught the people, and hence the Disci∣ples were permitted to heare them; but what is this to the question, which is of unable, as well as of ungodly Ministers?

* 1.2Thirdly, suppose some of the Priests and Levites were unable, yet the Ministery of the Old Testament was limitted by God himselfe to the tribe of Levi, and that by succession, which is farre otherwise in the New Testament, being left to the Churches election, and therefore they had no power to reject them, or withdraw from them, when they had ministred the ordinances of God.

Fourthly, suppose some of them were not called of God, being not lineally descended of that tribe, yet those things wherein the faithfull, Christ and his Apostles, and others did communi∣cate with them, were necessarily commanded of God, viz. sa∣crifices, offerings, &c. in the Temple, which seale of God we see not stamped upon this Liturgy in question, to make it currant. And thus Peter Martyr answereth in the like case,* 1.3 that though there were many pernicious doctrines taught by Scribes, Pharisees and wicked Priests, yet sacrificandi ritus, &c. the rites of sacrifi∣cing were not changed; for the same oblations were offered, which the Law commanded, and therefore the Saints might use them, having the word of God conjoyned with them.

Fifthly, what you grant concerning Christ his warning his

Disciples to take heed of the leaven of the Scribes and Pharisees, no doubt hee did the like, concerning the corruptions of the Priests in their administrations of Gods ordinances, and wee doubt not,* 1.4 but you will acknowledge that the Prophets and Apo∣stles did or ought to abstaine from all actuall communion with those corruptions, and the Lord Jesus out of question did abstaine: which being so, wee may retort this argument thus in regard of conformitie to ceremonies, If it bee not lawfull to partake in the Ordinances of God, where wee must actually joyne with such ce∣remonies, then Christ, the Prophets and Apostles must not have joyned in any ordinance of God in severall ages of the Church, when worse or as ill corruptions were admixed with that worship: But they never refused the ordinances of worship for such corrup∣tions; Therefore wee should not now for these ceremonies ab∣staine; put case for kneeling at the Lords Supper, &c. If you please to solve this knot, the same answer will serve our turne as well.

[Reply.] It is not for private Christians to withdraw themselves from the ordi∣nances of worship, and communion of the Church, because such are per∣mitted to deale in the holy things of God, whom they judge or know unfit; when men joyne in the worship of God with unworthy Ministers, they doe not countenance them, their place and office, but obey the commandement of God, who requires their attendance upon his highnesse in that way and meanes.

[Answ.] First, wee grant it is not alwayes for private Christians so to leave the communion of a Church in the ordinances of God, for such a reason, but if they have first done their part according to their place to reforme or cast out such an unworthy and unable ministry, and cannot, or see no hope to procure one sufficient to edifie the Church, hee may and ought to betake himselfe to some other Church, where hee may bee edified, and it is a great mi∣stake to thinke, (in the constitution of the Gospell) that a Chri∣stian cannot reject all fellowship with such Idoll Priests, but hee must forsake the ordinances of Christ, or rent off from the Church, when indeed hee deprives himselfe of many ordinances in joyning with them▪ and attaines them in forsaking of them.

Secondly, if we consider wherein the outward call of all Church Officers in the New Testament lies, viz. in a great part in the choice of the Church, or at least in their after consent and receiving of them, being chosen by others for them, Act. 1. and 6. and 14. how can any godly man receive, submit unto, or acknowledge

such unable wretches by receiving Gods ordinances from them, as Ministers, but they must needs countenance them in their pla∣ces, and set up to themselves an Idoll or meanes of worship to edifie themselves, which God never appointed; for let it bee proved that ever God appointed readers of a Liturgie to edifie the people.

[Answ.] Thirdly, but that to joyne in worship with such should bee to obey Gods command, who requires attendance upon himselfe in that way and meanes, wee thinke it a speech not so throughly digested, if wee carry in our eye the case now in hand, concerning these Idoll Priests and Silver shrines. For where can they shew any such command? or why hath it been suffered by any of our Brethren, that the godly living under such Priests, have been so frequently absent from them, reading the liturgy, to heare their Sermons? Nay why have they not told them, they were bound to attend upon God in hearing their Sir John read at home? Wee appeale to all consciences, whether they would approve of any godly man, that would rest in such meanes, and not call him to leave all his outward conveniences, for some godly able Ministry: or at least not to attend on them, but get where they may bee bet∣ter edified.

[Reply.] To goe no further then the Text you quote, Hosea 4.6, 7. Because thou hast despised knowledge I have rejected thee; properly the Text speaketh of the ten Tribes and the Priests amongst them, who worshipped the Calves, &c. whom the Lord threatens to reject; but neither this nor any other Text proves, that people joyning in worship with such, doe countenance them in their places.

[Answ.] The Text proves that God rejects such Priests as these are, (just like Jeroboams Priests of the meanest of the people) and that was all it was alledged for, and that receiving such as Ministers doth countenance them in their places, was proved before. And if it bee meant of Jeroboams Priests, as you say, the approved pra∣ctise of the godly in those dayes, 2 Chron. 11.16. will well justifie and lead us to reject and leave these also.

Secondly, there seemes to bee foure arguments, why the people should withdraw from these kind of Priests: First, in regard of their miserable perishing for want of knowledge by their meanes. Secondly, because the people in receiving them, rejected know∣ledge, as Calvin notes upon the place. Thirdly, because God would take a time to disburthen the Church of them, whence Dru∣sius

in locum wisheth, utinam tales hodie à ministerio a•…•…verentu•…•…. Fourthly, because the Lord would cast off their children from be∣ing his, for this sinne, as Calvin also notes upon the place; the promise of shewing mercy to a 1000. generations, being chiefly annexed to the observers of the second Command, and the institu∣ted meanes of worship, which those Priests never were.

[Reply.] On the contrary, if you will extend this Text to all unworthy Ministers of what sort soever, whom the Word of God condemns, as not approved Mi∣nisters of God, &c.

[Answ.] Wee intended no other sorts then such as wee have in hand, the unable and ungodly Idoll Priests of England, and therefore this discourse concernes us not. For wee freely confesse, that it is law∣full in divers cases, at least for a time, to communicate with such unworthy Ministers as may bee contained in your description: but that people must and ought to joyne with such in the wor∣ship of God, and sinne, if they separate from the ordinances, (as you say) the Scriptures alledged teach not this so evidently, that wee can see, as 1 Sam. 2.12, 13.17.24. that imputation, Verse 24. They make the Lords people to transgresse, doth. not depend im∣mediatly on Verse 13, 14.17. but on Verse 22.23. where they are charged to have layne with the women, the other passages being interrupted by the story of Samuel and his Mother, Verse 18, 19.20, 21. So Jer. 8.8, 9. Micah 3.11, 12. containe onely threats a∣gainst wicked Ministers, but not a word to prove people ought to joyne with them, &c. Phil. 1.15. speaking of such as preach and preach Christ, though not of sinceritie, doth not reach such Mi∣nisters as the word condemnes: for many such may be approved Ministers by the Word, having a call according to the same; but wee shall not contend in this case, wherein wee doe not dissent, so that Christians bee left to their lawfull libertie of withdraw∣ing from Ministers grossely wicked, and Teachers of false Do∣ctrin, or idle and unsufficient, when they cannot reclaime them, or remove them in the use of all lawfull meanes within their power.

[Reply.] The reasons whereby the ancient Churches condemned the Donatists and Catharists for their voluntary and seditious separations, and the mo∣derne Churches condemne the Anabaptists for their renting from the body of Christ, will hold against separation from the Prayers of the Congregation, because they are read by an ungodly Minister.

Wee deny that wee teach or hold such separation, because read by an ungodly Minister, as is sufficiently shewed before; but what

we speak is against conformitie to and communion with the cor∣ruptions of the Liturgie especially used by an unable as well as un∣godly Minister, and therefore the arguments mentioned will hold against our proposition, just as the accusations and imputations of Donatisme, Puritanisme, Anabaptisme, which the Prelates cast upon all Non-conformists and men studious of reformation, will hold and fasten upon them, which is nothing at all.

[Reply.] The second Proposition, where the whole Liturgie is used though by an able and godly Minister, it is not lawfull to joyne in prayer in that case; Wee cannot bee of your judgement herein, for in the times of the Prophets, and our Saviour Christ as great abuses no question were found, &c. but they never taught people to separate from the holy things of God.

[Answ.] First, wee must still mind the Reader of the true and full state of the question, which in our answer is of joyning in prayer, with, and when that whole Liturgy is used, and hee that joynes with that whole Liturgie must needs bee supposed to have actuall communion with all the corruptions thereof what ever they bee, and therefore though this Proposition reach to the practise of able and godly Ministers, yet let none thinke wee plead herein sepa∣ration from their ministery, but onely that people may not con∣forme with them to any corruption in worship, and by this pro∣position also the Author might easily have seene that wee denied the other (which was woven in with this) not because of the un∣godlinesse of the Minister alone as hee carried his dispute, but chiefly in respect of the corruptions of the worship, together with the unlawfulnesse of such a ministery that is both unable and ungodly.

Secondly, concerning the argument it runs as full for confor∣mitie to all the corrupt ceremonies of the booke as the corrupt worship it selfe therein, as was said before, cleare the one, viz. non∣conformitie to ceremonies, shew a reason why you will separate from the Sacrament, because you will not kneele according to the booke, and you answer your argument here alledged against us: but the reply proceeds.

[Reply.] And if presence at formes of prayer bee not lawfull by reason of the cor∣ruptions alledged, there can bee no visible societie named, since 200. yeeres after Christ or thereabout, wherein a Christian might lawfully joyne in prayer, reading the Scriptures, hearing the word, or participation of the Sacraments; their Doctrines, prayers, rights being lesse pure then ours: but no man wee hope will bee so bold as to affirme the state of the Churches

within 200. yeers after Christ to bee so miserably decayed that the faith∣full could not without sinne hold communion with them in the foresaid or∣dinances of God.

[Answ.] First, this argument holds as strongly for conformitie to the ceremonies as to the whole booke of Common Prayers, as was said before.

Secondly, this is a dangerous kind of reasoning from the pra∣ctise of the faithfull in corrupt times of the Church, especially when they are declining, and growing clouds of darkenesse, and superstition overspread the Churches. It is no breach of charitie to thinke that through the iniquitie of the times, the godly lived in many evils through ignorance and weakenesse which after light is come into the Churches wee ought to abandon wholly; these are times of light and of the consumption of Antichrist, and time for us to abolish his Liturgies and corrupt formes of worship as well as Images, ceremonies, &c. Who doe not pitie the weaknesse of godly Bilny and others that seeing some grosse cor∣ruptions were yet so devoutly obedient to the Church (as they called it) in many grosse superstitions? and the like may bee said of those former times, and wee see not but this reason will goe farre in justification of communion with many false worships of Antichrists that are not grosly idolatrous.

Thirdly, it is a great charge upon those times to say no visible societie throughout the world can bee named since 200. yeeres af∣ter Christ, that was not lesse pure then England in Doctrine, rites, &c. It may bee, that as generally Churches were corrupt, so they contemned and censured such as professed more puritie: but that there were some visible assemblies more pure may bee conceived by that testimony given to Aerius and many orthodox Christians with him, though condemned for a Hereticke, in that which wee all now hold to bee an undoubted truth; also after the Waldenses casting off the Pope and his will worships, and the following re∣formed Churches, those of Scotland, Geneva, and divers others in France and Switserland, &c. whose Doctrines, rites and admini∣strations wee doubt not will bee confessed more pure then Eng∣lish Churches. It would bee too tedious, and in these knowing times needlesse to search all records and to compare the puritie of the prayers, and rites of these with former times, wee read of very few formes used for 300. yeeres, some short ones they had which are retained yet in our Liturgie, with many more, and

these formes they had, not imposed nor stinted, which is the great offence of this, untill about the yeere 406. and there wee read in the Milevitan Councell that no prayers should bee used in Chur∣ches but what were either composed of able and sufficient men, or approved by the Synods, and this was determined onely in regard of the ignorant Ministery of those contentious and hereti∣call times,* 1.5 as Chemnitius observes, ne forte aliquid contra fidem vel per ignorantiam, vel per minus studium sit compositum. If the Roman Bishops did multiply (as indeed they did excessively (unlesse their owne admirers erre grossely) rites and formes of prayer, yet it is well knowne how long it was ere the Churches in other pla∣ces submitted to their power, so that this comparison might well have beene spared. To conclude, though wee say not that all Churches since 200. yeeres after Christ were so miserably decay∣ed, that the faithfull might not without sinne communicate with them, yet wee may bee bold to say many of them were so cor∣rupt, that the faithfull did not, nor could not communicate in ma∣ny parts of Gods worship without sinnes of ignorance confor∣ming to the corruptions themselves; and that if they had seene and discovered the evill of them, they ought, and we beleeve would have abstained from divers ordinances in regard of the corrupt administrations of them; yea after all meanes used to purge them out, and not prevailing, they ought and would have withdrawn themselves to more pure Churches, or erected such amongst themselves.

[Reply.] The prayers of the Ministers conceived or stinted in a set forme bee not his private prayers, but the publike prayers of the assembly; but you will not say the people ought not to joyn with their pastour therein if ought bee amisse, for matter, manner, or both.

[Answ.] There is a wide difference betweene the whole Liturgie, so im∣posed, and so clogged, as is before shewed: and such prayers of the Minister having something amisse. But you may put the case so, as it would bee unlawfull for people to joyne in such prayers also: as if the Minister for matter usually pray to Saints; for manner, turne himselfe, and fix his eye on a Crucifix.

[Reply.] It is all one to the people in this case, whether the fault bee personall (as some distinguish) or otherwise; knowne beforehand or not knowne; for if simple presence defile, whether knowne before hand▪ 〈◊〉〈◊〉 not, all presence is faultie, and if simple presence defile not, our presence is not condemned by reason of the corruptions knowne, whereof wee stand not guiltie.

[Answ.]

First, we distinguish not here between personall and ministeriall faults, but object against the personall act of him that joynes with that whole Liturgie, and so in the corruptions of it, as hee must needs doe, that joyns with the whole, not onely saying Amen to them, but as is knowne he takes his share in those shreds of prayers, Responds, &c. which in Mr. Cartwrights judgement is so absurd, as makes a man seeme out of his wits. And therefore his perso∣nall, actuall conformitie must needs carry guilt, and therefore there is more then simple presence in this case, as is cleare to any understanding.

Secondly, it is not all one whether the faults bee knowne, or not knowne beforehand, as appeares plainely, 1 Cor. 10.27, 28, 29. where wee see, if a man come to a feast, and know not they eate with reference to the Idoll, nor that any take offence, he may eate without asking any question: but if hee know such things, he may not eate.

Besides, publique sinfull actions of Ministers are either, 1 Acci∣dental & occasional, or 2ly. known & appointed in a stated service; now the frailties of a Minister, which accidentally fall in and are not known before, nor are any part and essence of the service, unto which men that come, doe or should take themselves to bee called, hinder not communion; because they doe not prae se ferre by their presence to attend and observe them, but the corruptions of the Liturgie are knowne and appointed, and to which and with which the imposers call others to joyne as in a stated service to God; the use of which if it bee an humane frailtie in Gods Mini∣sters, not yet convinced of the evill thereof, yet for those to com∣municate herein, who know such evills, have surely passed the bounds of frailtie and infirmitie; because in this action of prayer there is not onely communion by way of presence, as it is in hea∣ring the word, but communion of action: publique prayer be∣ing the common action of the whole Church towards God. There can be no prayer by any man offered to God, but there will be some humane frailties attending on it; if therefore for this cause wee should reject communion in prayer, wee should reject the or∣dinances of God, and never joyne in any prayer in this world; but the corruptions of the Liturgie are not such, but that they may bee more easily cast off, then kept.

This case stands not in tolerating faults in another (as the re∣ply makes it) but in actuall joyning with the sinnes of another,

wherein hee that joyneth is involved, and therefore whether they bee corruptions, that may bee tolerated or not in another, yet if sinnes, they may not bee practised and so joyned in with a∣nother. And therefore the case you put of communion with any person obstinate in errour, till hee may bee convinced, is nothing to this purpose. For wee must not joyne with him in his error, no not an houre, though wee may tolerate him a moneth.

[Reply.] Hath not Christian wisedome and experience of humane frailties lessoned you (deare brethren) to beare one with another in matters of greater con∣sequence, then any have, or can bee objected truely against the forme of prayer in use among us?

[Answ.] The Lord hath lessoned us to tolerate and beare with many hu∣mane frailties not onely in one another, but also in our deare brethren abroad; but to joyne with the best of men in con∣formitie to knowne and grosse corruptions in worshipping God, or to stoop so low, to the insolent tyranny of usurping Prelates, as to beare on our backs their whole Liturgie, and the corruptions thereof, wee confesse wee have not yet learned, and now wee hope never to goe to that schoole againe to learne the same.

[Reply.] And why such corruptions should not bee ascribed to humane frailtie, we see not. For if a godly Minister make use of a booke, in things which hee judges lawfull for matter and manner, the corruption of him that useth it, according to his judgement, from what cause can it spring but humane ig∣norance and frailtie?

[Answ.] First, the learned replier is very apt to forget the termes of the Proposition, which is of the whole Liturgie, not of some things in it, that hee may judge lawfull, to judge the whole lawfull, wee thinke none of those who sent the questions doe.

Secondly, our question is not whether the Minister use the book of humane frailtie, but whether the worship offered therein, bee not so corrupt for matter and manner, as puts a great difference betweene it, and the prayers of a Minister that may bee subject to faylings of humane frailtie. Wee doubt not, but Bilney, Latimer, &c. used the prayers and ceremonies of the Church of Rome, out of humane frailtie, yet the service it selfe and those ceremonies of holy water, holy bread, &c. which Latimer turned to as good use, as hee could, were evill and no way to bee conformed unto by the godly.

Thirdly, there are many things done of others through hu∣mane,

frailtie, that is, ignorantly and in some measure perversely, yet such frailties, though they are to bee very long tolerated in the man, yet every humane frailtie is not so to bee tolerated, as to bee communicated with; for the grossest Idolatry in Popery may in this sense, if ignorantly done, bee accounted humane frail∣tie. It is true, wee may bee freed from communicating in ano∣thers sinne two wayes. 1. By bearing witnesse against his sinne, or 2ly by withdrawing from the person committing it. There were times wherein the Lord raised up witnesses against the grow∣ing abominations of Antichrist for many yeeres; and there are times (as Cameron well observes) wherein the Lord commands his people not onely to beare witnesse, but to come out of Baby∣lon. The case may be so put as that wee may quit our hands from communicating with other men, in their sinfull worship, by bearing witnesse onely against the sinne, yet communicating with them in the rest; & è eonira the circumstances may bee such, as that wee best free our selves from sinne, by withdrawing from them in such acts. And wee freely confesse wee know not how to acquit others that communicate in the whole Liturgie, without the one or the other.

[Reply.] Wee rest assured you question not the integritie of many, who make much more use of the looke, then onely in a few select prayers.

[Answ.] You may so doe, and wee rest assured you question not the inte∣gritie of many that have conformed to the ceremonies, yet wee hope you will not justifie them in that act, no more then we doe any in this.

[Reply.] From the bottome of our hearts, wee pray that the Lord would remove out of his Church what ever offends, and yet all things might be so done, as might be approved in the consciences of all.

[Answ.] Wee not onely joyne with you in this hearty desire, but blesse God that wee live to see the same so farre accomplished in a good part of England, as it is; but as wee are perswaded the growing light and zeale of many godly Ministers and Christians, that have discovered the evill of the booke it selfe, as well as the ceremonies thereof, and their resolute rejection of the same, was one blessed meanes hereof, so wee feare the pleas and indeavours of some brethren to excuse it and the use of it, will be a dangerous meanes to uphold in the hearts of many too good an opinion of it, and loathnesse to cast it quite away to the Moles and Bats, from whence it first came.

[Reply.]

To aggr•…•…vat•…•… faults, especially when it tends to draw away people from the ordinances of God, is no lesse evill then to excuse them, it may bee greater.

[Answ.] Wee grant at some times and in some cases it may bee so, but in matters of corrupt worship, wherein God is so jealous and at such a time as this was; when the burthensome corruptions of hu∣mane traditions so violently imposed on the Churches, grew to such a number and unsupportable weight to the consciences of so many, wee doubt not to affirme, that now extenuations were farre more dangerous and offensive to the Lord: wee cannot but with sad hearts consider and call to minde how many weake Christians have ventured to swallow downe all manner of hu∣mane traditions and worships imposed upon them, imboldned much (wee feare) by the examples, if not the reasonings of many godly Ministers, which scandall some of us with many amongst you have have cause to bewayle before the Lord and give satisfacti∣on before the world; And wee hope our departure from these burdens, and flight into these wildernesses to enjoy Christ in more pure ordinances of his worship, and the witnesse wee have thereby borne against them, have not been in vaine through the grace of Jesus Christ.

[Reply.] In them that joyne according to Christs command (and libertie of ab∣sence from Christ hath not been shewed) notwithstanding the corruptions, wee hold the prayers to bee an holy and acceptable sacrifice to the Lord, and pleasing to Jesus Christ.

[Answ.] How any man can joyne with this whole Liturgie according to Christs command, who in the second commandement for∣bids all humane devices in his worship, whereof this Liturgie is so full; it is hard for us to conceive, and strange to see it affirmed: and that Libertie from Christ to bee absent cannot bee shewed. The whole sentence as it standeth, wee confesse to us seemes an high justification thereof, which wee little expected.

[Reply.] The corrupt sacrifice is that which the deceiver bringeth voluntarily, and out of neglect, having a male in his flock, but the godly bringeth himselfe and godly desires according to the will of God, and the corruptions in matter or manner are not his, they cleave not to his sacrifice to staine and pollute it. The Text in Malach. 1. is misapplyed, and wee desire such as alledge this passage against simple presence at the prayers of the Litur∣gie, advisedly to consider whether God allow them to make such appli∣cation of his truth, which we much doubt of, to say no more.

[Answ.]

That people joyning in the whole Liturgie, voluntarily offer up the same, wee thought had beene no question: If any joyne by feare and compulsion (though the will in this case is not for∣ced, for •…•…i•…•…ta actio is voluntaria) [wee thinke that will not ease, but aggravate the evill, arguing a reluctancy or doubtfulnesse at least in his conscience; and so what hee doth is not of faith, and therefore sin, Rom. 14.] 2ly. What you say of the faithfull here, might be said for the faithful in Malachi his time, if any godly man came with godly desires to Jerusalem to worship, and then care∣lesly buy and take a corrupt sacrifice for cheapnesse, ease, &c. shall hee not bee counted (at least in part) this deceiver, and beare the curse? And why not so here in this case? Let a man bring himselfe, and never so godly desires, yet if hee will joyne in a knowne corrupt service, will his godly desires excuse him? shall not his broken absurd responds, his standing at the Creed, knee∣ling at the Sacrament, &c. all which hee must doe, if hee joyne in the whole Liturgie, shall none of these cleave to his sacrifice? what though the Minister offer the service? so did the Priest the sacrifice; But both in the name of the people, and they joyning with him in offering the same to God. 3ly. Concerning Malach. 1.13, 14. the more advisedly wee consider it, the more perswaded wee are, the Lord allow us to make such application of the truth contained in it, and wee thinke others will bee of our mind, not onely in respect of the similitude that i•…•… in this case, with that in Malachi, but also if wee consider, what an argument the Lord useth to convince them of their corruptions and carelesnesse in his service, Verse 11. wherein the Lord upbraids the Jewes and provokes them to Jealousie, as the Apostle Paul speakes, by decla∣ring the reverend esteeme of his name amongst the heathen, and that every where Incense should bee offered and a pure offering to his name. And what is that Incense, and pure offering, but the pure prayers, and worship of God that should be in all Gentile Churches under the Gospell? as Tertullian, Eusebius, Jerom and Austin with others expound it. And hee applies it againe, Verse 14. I am a great King, and my name shall bee great amongst the heathen: If then the Lord oppose the pure prayers and worship of Gentile Churches to the corrupt carelesse sacrifices of the Jewes, the application is not onely sutable, but the place containes a sad admonition to all Gentile Churches, that by their corrupt worships, and Incense, so farre frustrate (as it were) Gods

expectation and glorying of their pure oblations.

[Reply.] Your third Proposition. That as you are very tender of imputing sinne to those men that joyne in some select prayers read by an able and godly Mi∣nister, so on the other side, you are not without feare, lest such joyning may bee found unlawfull, unlesse it may appeare, that the Ministers with whom they have communion, neither give scandall by reading them, nor give unlawfull honour to a thing abused to Idolatry and Superstition, nor doe suffer themselves to bee sinfully limited in the reading of them.

1 Wee cannot conceive how you should imagine the practise of a godly Minister in reading some few select prayers to bee scandalous, or offen∣sive in the Congregations, when the people generally in their assemblies and in the whole land were perswaded of the lawfulnesse of that course, till now of late times some have beene drawne away to separate; who yet by warrant of Scripture produce nothing of weight, to countenance that practise.

[Answ.] Concerning this Proposition, wee doe ingenuously confesse, that it may seeme over rigid and tending to separation, and there∣fore we will not wholly justifie the same: yet diverse things there bee, which may much mitigate the seeming rigidnesse of it.

1 In the words of the answer, where wee doe not determine any thing positively, wee doe not impute sinne to any in such a case, wee say onely that wee are not without feate, lest it may bee found unlawfull, where any scandall, unlawfull honour, or sinfull li∣miting bee found in the Ministers: and if our feares bee needlesse, wee hope, such as know how jealous the Lord is in matters of his worship will easily forgive us.

2 Because you marvell wee should bee so timerous in this case, wee shall give you some reasons of it, which perhaps may abate much the marvell or wonder.

First, let it bee remembred that these select prayers are yet a part of that Liturgie, which is acknowledged to bee corrupt in matter and manner and clogged with such evill consequences as are afore touched; Taken out of the Masse-booke, &c. And Master Parker (who was no separatist) doubts not to affirme, that the touch∣ing of Antichrists things maketh uncleane, for which hee cites, 2 Cor. 6.17. Haggai 2.14. John 4.23. Park of the Crosse, part 1. pag. 137.

Secondly, let it be considered that this booke is imposed by an unlawfull Antichristian authoritie of the Prelates, to whom to give place and subjection in any thing is justly to bee questioned.

And wee know that a man may acknowledge his fealtie and hold his Lands of the Lord of the Manner by a small rent, as well as by a greater.

Thirdly, consider this corrupt Service-booke hath beene over∣long tolerated and borne withall in the English Churches: it de∣serveth not so honorable a buriall as the Jewish worship: but hath stunke above ground twice 40. yeeres, in the nostrills of many godly, who breathed in the pure ayre of the holy Scripture, being witnessed against by the writings and sufferings of many godly Ministers and Christians in England and Scotland.

Fourthly, many godly men (it is well knowne) have been (of late times especially) offended at many good Ministers silence in these things, that they would no more plainely and boldly disco∣ver the corruptions in that booke, and at their compliance with the same.

Fiftly, these are times of more light, whereby the Lord is con∣suming Antichrist, with the breath of his mouth. And therefore we have cause the more to feare how we meddle with any thing of his.

Sixtly, consider the season when this answer was sent, was it not at a time, when superstitious opinions of the whole booke and the ceremonies thereof, were growne to a great height in the mindes and hearts of very many? when divers superstitious Po∣pish worships, as bowing at the name of Jesus, reading at the Ta∣ble set Altar-wise, &c. were added to the heape of former corrup∣tions? when the tyranny of the Prelates raged in the pressing of the booke, and their other humane inventions? when many Mi∣nisters and people (well thought of by the best) were carried a∣way shamefully with these things? when many weake Christians were staggering and wavering and looking at the judgement and practise of their guides, ready to stand or fall with them?

Lastly, consider that things lawfull in themselves may bee inex∣pedient; because offensive in their use, and so farre unlawfull; which offence wee chiefly looked at in this act, as appeares by our answer.

Let all these things bee laid together and weighed in an equall ballance (which wee hope our brethren are now at some libertie and leasure to doe) and let the consciences of all speake, whether it was not high time, for all the godly in England to take unto them that zeale and courage, which was soone after in our Bre∣thren

of Scotland, to cast off and wholly abandon the book it self and all the formes of it, and use of the same in every part and peece thereof? At least wee hope you will cease to marvell at our timerousnesse of such a season, how ever wee confesse, wee have sometime been more bold in the darke.

These considerations premised, as they may in a great measure abate the seeming rigour of the proposition: so they will much take off the edge of the Reply. For it will appeare that all con∣formitie of Ministers and people to any parcells of that booke, at such a season as this was, is a farre differing case from those that are put in some of the replies.

1 To the first reply then, wherein you put it beyond imagination, that such a practise should bee scandalous or offensive, wee know not what you have observed in some particular congregations neere you: but what ever have beene the opinions of men former∣ly concerning this practise, yet you know that the booke in gene∣rall hath been condemned of all godly reformers, and the use of any part of it hath been counted burdensome to many for the rea∣sons named. But of later times, as the booke and conformitie thereto was urged more hotly, so the spirits of very many grew more zealous against it, and began to loath it, and to with∣draw wholly from it; many very inquisitive about the lawful∣nesse or unlawfulnesse of joyning with it at all, and your selves complaine of the withdrawing of many, from joyning in the ordinances, where it was used, so that wee see not, but at least in some persons and at some places and times it might probably bee offensive and scandalous so to practise.

2 Wee looked not onely to the offence of those in your owne congregations, but to the imboldning and hardning of Papists in honouring any part of their portuises, above the formes of other reformed Churches abroad; and you cannot bee ignorant how many of the Lords witnesses now asleepe have testified of the offence and danger thereof.

[Reply.] 2 You say if the booke were an Idolothyte, yet latent offence doth not oblige.

[Answ.] The offence in this season, and as all things stand, cannot bee latent, complaint is made of the offence taken by many, and therefore it is evident.

[Reply.] 3 The booke so farre as it is sound and good (by your confession) is no Idolothyte, nor taken out of the Masse booke, in such sense as you object▪

but rather the Masse and other prayers added to it; Popery is a scab cle•…•…∣ving to the Church, and many truths belonging to the Church, as her pro∣per Legacy, were stolne, and heaped together in that Denne; And why the true man may not challenge his goods where ever hee finde them, or the theefe plead title to the true mans goods by prescription wee know not.

[Answ.] First, wee judge the whole booke an Idolothyte, and whence you gather, that wee confesse the contrary of any part of it, as it stands apart in relation to that whole, wee know not.

Secondly, that it was taken out of the Masse booke, was pro∣ved by the confession of King Edward; and other evidences are many; but you say, not in such sense as wee object. But rather, è contra Masse, &c. added to it, &c. But where to finde such a le∣gacy bequeathed to the Church in the Testament of our Lord Je∣sus Christ, wee could never yet see: So that wee rather feare all those formes of prayer, of marriage, burialls, visitations of the sick, confirmation, &c. are rather the copper counterfeit coyne, of a well growne Antichrist, whereby he cousened the Churches, when hee stole away the golden Legacy of Christ, rather then any part of the true Churches Legacy: and therefore it had been more happy for the Churches that they had never challenged the same, but let the theefes prescription to have been a good plea to hold them still: this further we adde, when we say it was taken out of the Masse-booke, wee understand Masse-booke in a large sense, (as it is commonly taken) for to speake narrowly it was col∣lected out of three Popish bookes, the first part of publique Prayers, exbreviario; the second part, viz. the order of admini∣string Sacraments, Matrimony, visiting the sick and burialls, è Rituali; 3. the order of consecration in the Supper, the Epistles and Gospels, and Collects, è Missali, as the forme of consecra∣tion of Bishops and Priests was taken è Pontificali, as the Author of Altare Damasc. shews, pag. 612.

Thirdly, because those words, Popery is a scab, &c. may bee a seed of much evill, an Egge out of which a Serpent may bee hatched, if men zealous of mouldy formes may but have time againe to set upon it, if the wheele of these evill times, (through Gods judgement on this wanton age) turne the Prelates or other zelotes for this Liturgie uppermost, wee shall therefore crave li∣bertie to examine this speech more narrowly. And because (as it is said) unumquodque ex suâ origine rectissime judicatur, wee shall trace the steps of the first times and so downeward, to see what

sound parts of Liturgie there was, on which this scab is suppo∣sed to grow.

1. Our blessed Saviour taught his Disciples a blessed forme, which though it may bee lawfully and comfortably used, the rather, not being of mans, but the Lords composing: yet it is evident hee never appointed his people to use it as their onely forme, and therefore the Apostles in the primitive Church, in that heavenly prayer, Acts 4. did not attend to the words and forme of this prayer, though they might have this in their eye, as the comon rule and direction how to powre out their prayers to God, for particular things, which may be an everlasting wit∣nesse against their usurpations, that will limit the Churches to their formes which the Lord Christ would not doe to his owne.

2. In the first 300. yeeres after Christ, wee read of few formes, that the Churches used, and those rather short ejaculations, then set formes, but contrarily wee read frequently of the exercise of their gifts in prayer. They prayed sine monitore, quia de pectore, saith Tertullian,* 1.6 i. e. They prayed without a Promptour, because from the heart, which as Zephirus observes was in opposition to the prompted formes then in use amongst the Pagans. Wee read also what they prayed for, viz. pro inimicis, pro imperatoribus, pro statu seculi▪ pro morà finis, &c. but of any set formes we read not. Their persecutions and dayes of afflictions preserved them from formalitie in prayer, and taught them how to finde their hearts and knees, and tongues, to poure out their soules to God, while under the Altar they were pouring out their blood.

3. But after the Churches had enjoyed peace for some space of time, (wherein securitie usually makes insensible, and insens•…•…∣blenesse formall) then indeed wee read of set and imposed formes, which the rather prevailed in regard of the grosse and palpable ignorance of a blind ministry, under a more learned Prelacy, and therefore it is well observed by Chemnitius that the third Coun∣cell of Carthage decreed this; ut nemo in precibus, &c. viz. that no Minister in his prayers either names the Father for the Sonne or the Sonne for the Father, but when hee comes to the Altar, to direct his prayers alwayes to God the Father, and that no man use his owne formes, till hee have conferred and shewed his formes to men more able, which wee finde sometime to bee the Synod.

4 After these times they added the commemoration of Saints to their Prayers and Letanies,* 1.7 as appears from manifold instan∣ces, whereof take but this one imputed to Chrysostome: Sanctissimae Deiparae & semper Virginis Mariae, cum omnibus sanctis, memoriam agentes, nos ipsos & omnem vitam nostram Christo Deo nostro commenda∣mus. Which Letanies at first being used more seldome at some times of the year, afterwards grew into ordinary use, to every end of which the people added, Lord have mercy upon us, and Ex∣audi Domine, We beseech thee to hear us good Lord.

5 From commemoration of Saints, (being so near the brink) they soon came on to invocation of them, first in private prayers, then in publick, and that by degrees. For first, they called upon Christ to hear their intercessions for them. Intercessionibus San∣ctorum tuorum, Salvator, salva nos: and thence they fell to direct and immediate invocation of them. Maria Deo supplica, ut ani∣mas nostras salvet.

6 At last they became so superstitious in their Letanies or Li∣turgies, that praying was magnified above all preaching, and almost all preaching was changed into formall, corrupt, and blind praying; and thus it was generally in the Churches, till about the sixt Century, as (if need were) might be shewed at large.

7 Though other Churches were thus over-grown with Forms of Worship, yet the Roman Bishops especially, did multiply Forms and superstitious▪ Rites excessively. Rome being (in Gods secret Providence) left to become the very seat and throne of Antichrist. The Bishops themselves also finding it exceeding hard to bring in the •…•…ligion of Christ, without conforming to the Pagan rites, as Casaubon observes. For it appears even in the time of Theodosius, wherein Christianity was risen to a great head,* 1.8 the Senate being sent unto by him to renounce their Pagan Religion, and receive the law of Christ, they returned answer that they would not, but that they would observe the ancient law Pompi∣lian, to avoid the ruine of the Common-wealth, which they fea∣red might come by the change of Religion. The Roman Bishops also for 400 years together, could never obtain of the Senate, nor multitudes of the Roman Idolaters, to renounce their inveterate Idolatry, and receive the Gospel. Hence they conformed their Rites and Ceremonies to the Pagan and Idolatrous customes, the better to allure them to Christ according to their carnalll po∣licy.

We finde all the principal parts of the Masse to be borrow∣ed from the Idolatrous Pagans, and to have their originall from Numa Pompilius that Conjurer, who lived 700 years before Christ, to adorn and deck (as the Bishops thought) the Religion of Christ Jesus, to the which with much ado at last the Romans were converted. To which principall parts, viz. Vestments, Holy-water, the Confiteor, Organs, Incense, Offertory, &c. other deckings were added also, as divers Letanies, and the Kurie Elyson to be sung nine times, invented by Gregory a Monk at first, well-studied in the laws of Numa and Tullus Hostilius: Dama∣sus (as Platina and Sabellius shew) inriched it with Gloria Pa∣tri, &c. i. e. Glory be to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Ser∣gius, with an Agnus Dei, to be sung three times. Alexander and other Bishops added the Canon of the Masse; others, the Epistles and Gospels: The Graduall and Collects were added by Gelasius, anno 493. The Gloria in excelsis by Symmachus 508. At last came the Host in about 1062. Much more might be said. All which when we consider, we confess we are pusled to discern the difference be∣tween the sound part and the scab. For if the principal formalities of the Masse (out of which our Liturgy was taken; as is confessed) arose out of a politick push to conform the Christian to the Pa∣gan Religion, and the deckings of it, from the itching humor of the Roman busie Bishops, admirers of humane inventions and Ceremonies▪ let the Reader then judge what sound parts are left beside the scab. We do not speak this to condemn every thing for the matter of it that is in the Common-Prayer-book: Yea, we honor the affection and piety of the first Reformers, and the god∣ly then, that were glad to hear Prayers in their own to•…•…e, and according to the glimmering light of those times, aymed at the winning of Papists to the true Religion by such a Form of Wor∣ship. But now since experience hath taught, it rather hardens them against the truth, then draws them toward it; when we see the pressing of it is rather a temptation to conform to Popery, then otherwise; we verily beleeve, if they had lived in these times of further light, they would have born witnesse against it, as others have done.

Lastly, though the originall had been good (which yet is con∣trary) we may answer in the words of Peter Martyr, to such as did plead for a lawfull presence at Masse,* 1.9 because the originall was good; who answers thus: In hisoe rebus non origo, &c. In

these matters, not the Originall, but the Nature is to be conside∣red; for the brasen Serpent had its originall from God, and was honored with miraculous works: yet when abused, Piis homi∣nibus redditus est detestabilis, it became (most) loathsome to godly men.

[Reply.] It is no hard task to shew, that our Service-book was reformed in most things, according to the purest Liturgies which were in use in the Church, long before the Masse was heard of in the world. And if that could not be shewed, yet forms of speech generally taken (we speak not of this or that speciall word or phrase) is no more defiled by Idolatry, then the light, air, or place where Idolatry is committed, &c.

[Answ.] It is just cause of grief unto us, that this reverend Author should thus use the Prelates plea for Surplice and other Ceremo∣nies, to justifie this corrupt Liturgy; for these were before the Masse, and many other Idols of the Papists: and though a phrase or word be not polluted by their use of it; yet a needless Cere∣mony, and so a devised Form of Worship, and a bundle of Cere∣monious and corrupt Wor•…•…s, must needs be polluted by the use of them; better to use t•…•… Forms of Turks then Papists, saith Cartw. supra.

[Reply.] Fourthly, put case the Minister in reading give offence, give un∣lawfull honor to a thing abused to Idolatry, and suffer himself to be sinfully limited in reading? what is that to the faithfull? This can be no ground that the people may not joyn, &c.

[Answ.] We doe not conclude that they doe sin, but fearfull we are lest they may so do; all things considered in this case, as have been before propounded. If indeed the case stood as formerly it hath done in England, we would have been lesse scrupulous and doubt∣full of the matter: but if by the out-breaking of light, after so long toleration of the book, we see so many evill effects of it, and see such superstitious opinions of it increasing, and such pressing the same to the oppression of the Churches, so many fall, so many weak ones stagger, and look at the example of their Guides: if now when all are called of God to rise up against it with zeal and detestation, a Minister godly and able will use any part of it with offence, &c. we suppose we had cause to fear and leave it doubtfull, whether the godly might lawfully joyn with them therein, and therefore we desire you to call back your sharp censure of such withdrawing, as you conclude this passage withall, or else we shal appeal to the reverend Assembly of Ministers, and their late and godly Directory herein.

[Reply.]

Fifthly, If these, and such like scruples make it unlawfull to joyn in the ordinance of Worship, we must hold communion with no society under heaven. For may not the brethren which hold all stinted Liturgies and set Forms unlawfull, say with like reason, it is not lawfull to joyn with others inconceived Prayers, if they give too little honor to it, as con∣ceiving the other lawful, or sinfully limiting themselves to one stinted Form, though conceived at first by themselves, &c.

[Answ.] We must intreat the Christian Reader still to carry in minde with what tendernesse we offered our selves in this point, and upon what considerations we durst not wholly excuse and cleare such joyning as the case now stood, and therefore we think these reasonings would be far differing from the case in hand, and we would not be taken so as to justifie such rigid principles as these are. We heartily joyn in the conclusion, that such advancing of small differences, would indeed bring all to confusion, and we are far (we hope) from any such meaning. If our answer in this or any other passage, give just advantage to such separations, we are heartily sorry for it; but we hope what hath been said will satisfie the ingenuous and Christian Reader.

[Reply.] Sixthly, we have credibly heard, that you hold fellowship with pro∣fessed rigid separatists, without acknowledging of their error, and receive them as members, or communicate with them in the priviledges of the Church, though you professe you approve not their opinion or practice: and if in godly wisdome you can see grounds to joyn with them, we marvail you should be so timerous in this particular.

[Answ.] Although in many of our Churches we know not that there be any such professed rigid Separatists, that reject the Churches of England, as no Churches; and their Ministers, as no true Mini∣sters; yet we deny not but some such there may bee in some of the Churches. Whence we grant it may follow that we can have communion in Gods Worship with men of severall judgments, yet we may be justly timerous of joyning or approving others to joyn in any part of a corrupt Worship, in case of scandall, &c. we think these things have not the same face or shew of reason in them; and therefore so long as they live peaceably with us, we can well have fellowship with them, as we have also with other, that think (it may be) better of the Churches and wayes of it, then there is cause, in regard of the corruptions thereof; so we be not bound to approve their opinions, nor conform to any of their corrupt practises.

[Reply.]

Seventhly, if to administer in a stinted Form be scandalous to such as separate, it is scandall taken, not given; and we should do it the rather, that they be not confirmed in their error, the truth be not prejudiced, needless scruples occasioned, &c.

[Answ.] 1 This is from the question, for we dispute of your Liturgy, not of any Liturgy or stinted Form.

2 Take in the case in all its circumstances, (as before declared) and it will appear scandall may be given; at least we put the case of a scandall really given.

3 How far a man in some cases of clear and undoubted truths may do a thing, the rather for such reasons, though others take offence, we will not dispute: but if for meat (or by use of our liberty by eating of such meat, as another accounts unclean) we may destroy the work of God, and therefore must not eat flesh, nor drink wine, nor any thing whereby a brother stumble, &c. Rom. 14 14, 15, 20, 21. how dangerous then to use such corrupt Forms of Worship, or any part thereof, so much the rather, when a weak brother stumbles at them, we leave it to the Christian Rea∣der to judge, we doubt it will not agree with the rules of charity prescribed Rom. 14. 1 Cor. 8.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Ibid. p. 138.
• * 1.2

  Peter Martyr in 1 Kings 12. verse 31.
• * 1.3

  Pet. Mart. Com. Loc. de Idol. in prae•…•…. l. 1.
• * 1.4

  Iohn 2.15, 16.
• * 1.5

  Conc. Miliv. Can. 12.
• * 1.6

  Tertull. Apol. cap. 30.
• * 1.7

  Vid. Chemnit. Ex. de Innoc. Sanctorum.
• * 1.8

  Vid. Birth of Heresies, out of Elasopolitans Comment.
• * 1.9

  Pet. Mart. loc. •…•…om▪ de Idol.