A defence of the answer made unto the nine questions or positions sent from New-England, against the reply thereto by that reverend servant of Christ, Mr. John Ball, entituled, A tryall of the new church-way in New-England and in old wherin, beside a more full opening of sundry particulars concerning liturgies, power of the keys, matter of the visible church, &c., is more largely handled that controversie concerning the catholick, visible church : tending to cleare up the old-way of Christ in New-England churches / by Iohn Allin [and] Tho. Shepard ...

CHAP. II. (Book 2)

Qu. 1.

That a stinted Forme of Prayer and set Liturgie is un∣lawfull.

[Reply.] THis Position cannot beare that meaning which you give it, if you take it according to our minds, and the plaine construction of the words. We never questioned why you made not use of a Liturgie, &c.

[Answ.] Let our Answer bee viewed, and it will appeare that wee had just cause to premise those distinctions of Formes of Prayer into pri∣vate and publike; and publike into such as are imposed by others, or composed and used by Ministers themselves before their Ser∣mons; otherwise we must have involved such in the Position, as wee doe not condemn. Now if your generall thesis justly admit such limitation to publike imposed Formes, where shall wee finde any set stinted imposed Liturgies, but in Churches of the Papacy or Prelacy? no Reformed Churches stinting or imposing their Formes of Prayer, but leaving Ministers and people at much liber∣ty. Onely the English Liturgy therefore is such, according to the plaine construction of the words.

2 Concerning your minds in the Position, wee deny not but you might intend to draw from us an approbation of stinted Li∣turgies

in generall, that so you might have to stay the separation of people from your Liturgy, whereof you complaine: but by that it appeares plainly, what your chiefe scope and ayme was in the Position: according unto which wee thought it most safe and pertinent for us to answer. And this wee did the rather, for our reason mentioned in our letter, because though all of us could not concurre to condemne all set Formes as unlawfull, yet wee could in this, viz. that though some set Forms may bee lawfull, yet it will not follow, that this of the English Liturgy is, there∣fore to remove all obscurities, and breake all snares, and resolve the question in the true intent of it, wee were forced to distinguish of Formes, and so touch the true Helena of this controversie; and therefore if any shall narrowly observe Mr. Ball his large defence of set Forms in generall, they shall finde those wings spread forth in a very great breadth, to give some shelter and warmth to that particular Liturgie, then languishing, and hastening (through age and feeblenesse) towards its last end.

[Reply.] It is true, people separate from our Liturgie, because stinted, not because this, or that, or ours in particular.

[Answ.] If because it's stinted, then because yours, for we know none pro∣perly such, but yours, and it may well bee one offence to all godly consciences, that yours are so imposed and stinted as they bee: though it is hardly credible to us, (so farre as our observation reach) that the main causes of the godly withdrawing from your Liturgy, should be the stinting of it, when so many corruptions in Matter and Forme have been objected against it, by the best godly Reformers. And seeing the same persons will joyne with Prayers of godly Preachers, though they use the same forme of prayer usually, and so in a large sense freely stinting themselves thereto, though not properly in such sense as your Liturgy is stinted.

[Reply.] But say you, such set Formes used by Preachers are disliked also, and your reasons, especially the two last, why you admit not a stinted Liturgie, conclude against both in our understanding.

[Answ.] Wee deny not but some may dislike the constant use of such Formes, especially when studiously framed with elegancy of phrases, and as the manner of some is; but doe any we now speak of, condemne all use thereof? or withdraw from them that use them? which is now the case in hand: For our parts, wee nei∣ther know such men; or if we did, we should condemn such minds.

As for our Reasons in generall, or the two last you mention in particular, it passeth our understanding to conceive, how any such inference can bee made; if the Reply had formed the inferences from our arguments, it may bee wee should have seene more by the helpe of such spectacles. But passing over what we say to the Posi∣tion, as we interpret it, you think fit to advertise us of some things, which are six.

[Reply.] Advert. 1. Your reasons why you accept not a stinted Liturgie, are ambiguously propounded, and so, that such as looke at stinted Liturgies as images, forbidden Command. 2. may easily draw your words to their meaning.

[Answ.] If our Reasons themselves being sound, and unanswered by you, contain any thing that may be drawn to such a Position; that can∣not arise from the ambiguousnesse of words which are plaine, but from their abuse who mis-apply them.

[Reply.] Advert. 2. The Reasons you bring against a set forme of Prayer, doe hold as strong against a set forme of Catechisme, confession and profession of faith, blessing, baptizing, and singing of Psalmes.

[Answ.] 1 Concerning forms of Catechismes, and confessions of Faith, if religiously and perspicuously framed, wee account them of sin∣gular use, (though abused by men) nor without some sacred al∣lowance: yet from hence to infer the like use of set Formes of prayers, neither our reasons, nor any other will in force: for Cate∣chismes and Confessions (as well as Psalmes) in the nature of the thing, require in some sense a set and limited Forme; but publike prayers, though they may admit of a set and comely order in the generall, to prevent errour; yet of their owne nature they re∣quire no set Forme; for God gives us no new matter or doctrine daily to be beleeved, but he gives new matter of new affection in prayer daily.

2 If by set Forms of Catechismes and Confessions, bee meant (according to the termes of the Question) stinted Formes, like stinted Liturgies, i. e. beyond, or short of which, Ministers may not teach, or Christians beleeve and professe, then wee should say the same of these as wee doe of stinted Formes of Prayer; wee confesse there is danger in casting by all Formes of Confessi∣ons and Catechismes, lest through the instability of ungroun∣ded and heady men, pretending new light, or searching after fur∣ther light, the Churches adhere to nothing: and their Faith (as the learned Leyden Professors terme it) become fides horaria, or

menstrua, The faith of an houre or moneth, and then cast it off the next. And on the other side there is danger, that by imposing such Confessions too far, that which is indeed further light be sup∣prest; wee therefore thinke it usefull and needfull to pave out such high wayes of Catechismes and Confessions, so as the subjects of Christ Jesus our King and Law-giver may walke therein without shackles, reserving liberty for further future light, in points lesse cleare, yet standing in a readinesse alwayes to confesse and hold fast the present truth which appeares most cleare.

3 Concerning Forms of blessing, baptizing, singing Scripture Psalmes, there is a far differing reason from this case, for the Lord himselfe hath left us Formes in these cases, not onely for instructi∣on, but allowing the use of the same, as Numb. 6.23, &c. Luke 10.5. Matth. 28.20. 2 Chron. 29.30. and therefore such may bee used as hee hath left; yet the Lord hath not imposed (some of these at least) to bee used alwayes and onely in his Churches, much lesse doth hee allow any man to impose their own Forms upon his Churches, or conforme to such as are tyrannously im∣posed.

[Reply.] Third Advert. We have not called you at this time to witnesse for, or against the corruptions of the Common-prayer-book, this you fall upon by straining the sense of our demands.

[Answ.] Wee have spoken to this before, and we thinke whatsoever your intent and desire was, yet the nature of the thing, and the case it selfe gave us a just call to testifie against it, especially seeing the cor∣ruptions then increased in England, and the impositions were more rigid and violent.

[Reply.] The reasons you bring against the Communion-booke, wee cannot ap∣prove them all; the exceptions against it wee know, but to esteem the whole for some corruptions found therein a Monument of Idolatry, that we have not learned.

[Answ.] The Answer calls it not a Monument of Idolatry for some corruptions onely found in it, though the corruptions in mat∣ter and manner, bee objected as the first reason why wee used it not; but being never commanded of God, greatly abused unto Idolatry and superstition, and of no necessary use, the same that was in Popery for substance, which are the usuall arguments for abolishing Images, Ceremonies, and all Monu∣ments of Idolatry; and wee marvaile how any could passe o∣ver these things in the Answer which might evince it to bee a

Monument of Idolatry, as the argument of the Abridgement to which we referred, doth prove.

[Reply.] The argument in the Abridgement used against conformity to the Ceremonies, did not in the judgement of the Authors hold against the Litur∣gie, of which judgement we are.

[Answ.] It matters not whether they saw so far, and so judged, if indeed the reason and nature of Ceremonies, and the book be the same; for the first Reformers thought their arguments strong against oyle, creame, and spittle, &c. in Baptisme, but saw not that they would hold against the Crosse, Surplice, &c. as well; yet we doubt not but the Reverend Author did judge of all in the same manner; and so it is in this case.

[Reply.] Advert. 4. If these reasons bee intended onely to shew why you re∣ceive not our forme of administration, it is that which wee are per∣swaded you know we never required of you, if to disallow the use of the Book amongst us altogether in things lawfull, good, and pertinent, they will not hold weight.

[Answ.] 1 Wee were told in the first Epistle of our Reverend and deare Brethren, that whiles wee lived in England, wee joyned in the same Ordinances and purity of worship, and therefore wee might have some just cause to cleare up our differing pra∣ctise from disusing that forme of Administration there, consi∣dering that our differing practise might occasion others to rend off from your Administrations there, whereof your complain.

2 We doubt not but in the Popish Forms of Masse, Matten, and Evensong, &c. some things lawfull, good, and pertinent may bee found, yet would not the godly allow these very rea∣sons wee alledge in the Answer sufficient to refuse the whole Forme, and so those good and lawfull things in that Forme? as that they are devised by men, without the command of God, imposed by an Antichristian power, abused to Idolatry and Superstition, wherein the people place much holinesse, and ne∣cessity, full of scandall, &c. and if these Reasons do not hold against this Forme in the Communion booke, the Reply should have acquited it from them: or else the consequence must bee yeelded in this case, as in the other, notwithstanding all the good and pertinent things therein. John Simpson, and John Ard∣ly Martyrs in Q. Maries dayes, and faithfull Witnesses, made answer to the sixt article of Bonner, concerning the Masse, that 'tis of the Pope, not of Christ, and therefore not good, not

having in it any goodnesse, saving Gloria in excelsis, the Epistles and Gospels, the Creed and Pater Noster; and for this cause (they said) they have not, nor will not come to heare Masse: the same answer was made by six more in those dayes, mentio∣ned by Mr. Fox. If therefore corrupt Formes may bee used be∣cause of some things good and lawfull mixt with them, there should have been shewn us some proofe for it, but if the mea∣ning bee, that there may bee a lawfull use of those things which are lawfull and good in it: wee say so too, (due circumstan∣ces of their use being observed) but then wee fall off from the question between us; otherwise wee know that things lawfull and good in themselves, yet (not duly circumstantiated) may be evill and scandalous in their use. Heare what Paul saith, it was lawfull for Paul to eate some kindes of meat, yet if it maketh my brother offend, I will eate no flesh whiles the world standeth, 1 Cor. 8.13. Heare what the Authors of the second admonition to the Parlia∣ment say, in Queen Elizabeths dayes, the Booke of Common-prayer, which of all others must not bee touched, because they have gotten the State to beare it out, yet hee hath but a bad con∣science, that in this time will hold his peace, and not speake it for feare of trouble; knowing that there are such intolera∣ble abuses in it: if there were never an ill word or sentence in all the Prayers, yet to appoint it to bee used, or to use it, as the Papists did their Mattens and Evensong, as a fit service to God, though the words bee good, yet the use is naught. But if this seem too sharpe, heare what — a late godly and lear∣ned Writer speakes,* 1.1 Rejicimus illas precum, cultusque publici for∣mulas, quae tyrannide quâdam, conscientiis hominum, ut cultus divini partes essentiales impo•…•…untur; quamvis quoad materiam sunt legitime dispositae, quoad formam & modum tamen quo inducuntur, illegitima crudelitatis instrumenta fiunt, & praetextus improbae malitiae & oc∣casiones violentae tyrannidis in dignissimos & optimos Ecclesiae filias.

[Reply.] Advert. 5. You are generally (you say) loath to med•…•…le with the affaires of other Churches, unlesse necessarily called thereunto: but when some upon request (as we suppose) of private friends, and others out of their zeal and forwardnesse have laboured to draw many to separate from the sacrament, because ministred in a stinted Liturgie, wee cannot appre∣hend any just ground of this Apologie; the •…•…ent is wide, and some brethren had their hands deep therein, which made us crave your judgements and the reasons thereof, to make up the breach.

[Answ.]

1 What you impute to some, if justly, wee grant will not al∣low this apologie to bee generall for all; but how many that some is, or who we know not, it may bee one or two; and if so, one or two exceptions will not much infringe a generall rule, nor hinder this generall apology.

2 If such brethren had a necessary Call to speake or write what they did, it hindreth not our apologie at all: the desire of private friends, which you onely suppose the moving cause, might bee very weighty, the satisfying of tender consciences of neare friends, or such as once depended upon our Ministery, in such a time of pressing humane inventions upon men, as that was; might bee a very urgent call to interpose: but that any have endeavoured out of zeale to draw many to separation from the Sacrament, upon such a ground as you say; as we utterly dislike such fire upon the top of the house, so it must be proved, before we can call to minde or acknowledge any such thing.

[Reply.] Advert. 6. J. D. object to Mr. P. that his manner of preaching (pro∣ceeding it should be) was disorderly, in carrying to the Classis a matter, before hee had declared it to the Church, &c. and may not we with like reason object that this manner of proceeding is disorderly, in seeking to draw men to separation, because of a stinted Liturgie, before you had shewed us or other Brethren, whom it may concren, by Scripture, or reasons that a stinted Liturgie is unlawfull?

[Answ.] What J. D. objects, wee cannot tell, seeing you neither quote the place, nor the Printer give us his words in any way to make sense; but so far as we guesse at the meaning, the case is very wide from this in hand. J. D. might justly complaine of wrong offe∣red to him and the Church, in neglecting them, to goe imme∣diately to the Classis, and yet some of our Brethren, at the requests of tender consciences, might declare their judgement, when no rule called them to write to their Pastors, which perhaps, were bitter persecutors, or if better, yet such as they had no knowledge of; and if any by such writings did abstaine from the sacrament for such corruptions, as their consciences would be defiled with, no hinderance from us was in the way, but that you might call them to account before the Church, and convince and censure them, if there were just cause; which was the objection against Mr. P. in flying presently to the Classis.

Notes

• * 1.1

  G. Apol. cap. 7. Q. 2.