The state of the now-Romane Church Discussed by way of vindication of the Right Reuerend Father in God, the Lord Bishop of Exceter, from the weake cauills of Henry Burton. By H.C.

THE STATE OF the Now—Romane CHVRCH.

THere can be no more euident signe of a bad cause, then if it be handled falsly and so∣phistically: for (as Eu∣ripides saith)

〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. The truth is sound, her words are plaine, Falshood is sicke; she needs must faine.

Which being so, we may soone per∣ceiue what we are to thinke of Mr. Bur∣tons cause; who hauing taken vpon him∣selfe to oppose men euery way better

then himselfe, about the truth, and true visibilitie of the Church of Rome; vseth all kind of sophistrie and deceit: as may appeare both by the whole Discourse, and by euery part and parcell thereof.

In the whole you shall perceiue two points of notable sophistrie common to him with all those that maintaine bad causes: One is Beggery, commonly cal∣led of the Logitians, Petitio principij, which proueth one obscure or vncer∣taine thing by another; or would haue that to be granted which reason deny∣eth: Another is Disorder, which is Horaces Humano capiti, &c. and Ouids Rudis indigesta{que} moles. A confused heape of independencies, like a Lotte∣rers pitcher, full of scrowles shuffled together, without any reference one to another.

His Beggery will soone appeare, if we resolue this dispute into that Enthy∣meme, whereof it wholly consisteth; which is this: S. Iohn saith, The second Angell poured out his viall vpon the S••a, and it became as the blood of a dead man; and euery liuing soule dyed in the sea:

Ergo, the Church of Rome is neyther a true Church, nor a true visible Church. To which I may say farre better then Bishop said to Perkins: Apply Iohn Bar∣ber, and thou shalt haue a new paire of Sizors. Whether I wrong him or no, I referre my selfe to the censure of euery iudicious Reader: And if I wrong him not, euery man may see, that hee beg∣geth two things which no good Di∣uine may yeeld vnto him: One is, that an Allegoricall Prophecie (such as this is) may bee laid for a good foundation, whereon to frame an Argument to de∣cide a Controuersie in Diuinitie; con∣trary to the old Maxime, Theologia symbolica non est argumentatiua: Alle∣gories in diuinitie afford no good argu∣ments. Especially if they be Prophe∣cies, whereof there may be doubt whether they be fulfilled or no: in which case the tryall is, to examine the perspicuitie thereof: for a Prophecie, as of all Scriptures it is most obscure, be∣fore it be fulfilled; so when it is fulfilled it is of all other most cleare, and easie: This therefore being an Allegory, and

propheticall, and retaining the aenigma∣ticall darknesse which it had originally (as appeareth by the various interpre∣tations of the Learned, euery day re∣newed) I for my part cannot suppose it to be yet accomplished; and so (to me) it is vnfit for that vse to which hee hath imployed it.

The other point of his Beggerie is, That his owne priuate interpretation of these words may be allowed as the true meaning of the holy Ghost: which is, That by the Sea we are to vnderstand the Doctrines of the Councel of Trent▪ by the blood, the abominable corrup∣tions therof: by the Angel, Chemnitius, and other learned men of that time that examined it: and by the pouring out of the viall, their preachings and writings. All which hee hath borrowed from Brightman, whom notwithstanding elsewhere he forsaketh. But now what if we deny him this interpretation; and require some proofe hereof, what will he say then: Surely hee is vtterly disap∣pointed, and all his building falls to the ground. If he say we must shew some

reason for our denyall; besides that we haue shewed some already, it would be knowne, why we may not as well deny, as he affirme without reason: If this course bee good, euery mans priuate fantasie (especially if he can make some shew of probability) must bee 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, the Reuelations Reuelation: And then why may not Bellarmines in∣terpretation of the ninth cap. (Oratione in Scholis habita) wherein he turnes all vpon Luther and the Lutherans) passe for current? But lest I may seeme to seeke euasions; I will doe that against him, which he cannot, or at least hath not yet done for himselfe: I will shew some reason for my denyall; and leaue it to the iudgement of the Learned: And because the ground of all is that the Councell of Trent, or the doctrines thereof, are that bloody sea: I suppose it sufficient (if I proue it to bee other∣wise) to turne vp all his phantasticall Cauillation.

First therefore I proue it ex praecon∣cessis; for hee granteth, that the same Sea whereof cap. 8. r. the third part

was turned into blood, is here wholly turned thereinto. Now Brightman, (whom in this point he followeth) will haue that third part of the Sea, to bee the doctrine of Europe, the third part of the Christian world: And then 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉: the whole sea is the doctrine of the whole Christian world: But the doctrine of the Councell of Trent, is not the doctrine of the whole Christi∣an world: Ergo it is not the Sea here mentioned by S. Iohn.

Secondly, vpon the powring out of this second Viall; this sea is turned into congealed and putrified blood, which (by his interpretation) signifieth that by the conclusions of the Councell of Trent, Romes doctrines are become mortall and damnable: and this puts a difference betweene the state of Romes doctrines before the Councel of Trent (while as yet they were in their grow∣ing) and after it: Before there was some fresh water, &c. but after none at all. So saith he: But I say that the Coun∣cell of Trent hath not a whit corrupted Romes Doctrines more than they were

along time before: Ergo the Councell of Trents conclusions are not here to be vnderstood. I need not take paines in the proofe hereof; because the lear∣ned doe not accuse it of this fault; but that (whereas it promised reformati∣on, and that it was expected ther from) it cosened the world; and in stead of reforming confirmed the foule corrup∣tions of the religion and doctrine of the Church which formerly had pre∣uailed: Indeed Master Crashaw (whose memory for old acquaintance is preti∣ous to me) noteth one, (and but one) point of doctrine (for the other is only for practice) wherein the Councell of Trent hath added some thing to the former corruptions, which is, the equa∣lizing of the Apocrypha with the Ca∣nonicall books of Scripture: But if we consider how he interpreteth himselfe (that no Councell before had done the like) it will appeare, that hee denyeth not, but that euen that corruption also was inueterate ••efore the Councell of Trent.

Thirdly, I say that the Councell of

Trent hath reformed Romes doctrine, and made it (at least in one point) bet∣ter then it was before: Ergo it is not here to be vnderstood. The point is this, that there is no naturall ability in a man, to prepare himselfe for grace, and so no merit of congruity, in which re∣gard Stapleton saith, Meritum ex con∣gruo explosum est: a point of no small moment in these dayes.

Fourthly, I say that there is as much fresh water in Romes doctrines since the Councell of Trent, as there was be∣fore: Ergo it is not here to bee vnder∣stood. This I proue, by the doctrine of the Tridentine Catechisme, in euery part whereof there is sufficient quanti∣ty of sauing doctrine for those that (to vse your owne words) can search and find it out: separating the good from the bad, and truth from errour: as may appeare to them that will take the paines to reade it: yea I dare bee bold to say, the Church of Rome had not for many hundred yeares before the Councell of Trent, so good a forme of doctrine, as that Catechisme contai∣neth:

which I speake not to justifie the Councell, or the Catechisme, in any errour comprehended therein; but on∣ly to shew the beggery of the aduersa∣rie: of which this shall be sufficient.

His disorder shewes it selfe in three things; First, in not setting the state of the question: Secondly, in mispla∣cing his owne arguments: Thirdly, in idle repetitions. For the first: There cannot be a greater fault in a Disputant, then either to leave the question altoge∣ther vnstated; or else to state it amisse; for by this meanes it ordinarily fals out, that the contention is nothing else but Andabatarum pugna, the fight at blind man buffe (as we say,) so as a man may misse ten times, before hee hit once: But of the two the former is the worse, wherein this our aduersary offendeth: If he say, he tooke it as hee found it; it will not excuse: For I dare say his pre∣tended aduersaries intended not a com∣bat; if they had, they would haue de∣priued him of the occasion of much babbling: And yet, had he not listed to be contentious, hee might haue picked

such a state of the question out of the defenders writings, as might haue d••••∣led the edge of his quarrelsome humor: for the state being set aright, and with perspicuity, it will easily appeare to which side the truth inclineth: where∣fore that I offend not in that wherein I finde him to be faulty; I will doe that which he hath left vnperformed. First then wee are to know, that the words whereof the question consisteth are full of ambiguity: For both the Church of Rome, and a true Church, and a Church truly visible, haue many sen∣ses, and significations: The Church of Rome hath at least eight seuerall accep∣tions: For sometimes it noteth the particular Diocesse of the Romane ter∣ritory, commonly called the particular Romane Church: Sometimes (and most vsually) it comprehendeth all the national Churches which communicate with Rome in the same faith, and vn∣der the same head, the Pope, common∣ly called the Catholique Romane Church: Sometimes the Clergy of that Church is onely vnderstood by

that title, commonly called the Church representatiue: Sometimes the people onely, commonly called the Laity, and of some the popular Church of Rome: Sometimes the whole body of Clergy and Laity: Sometimes the Papacy, or Apostacy in that Church, which is S. Iohns Babylon: Sometimes the Elect in that Church, still communicating with the Papacy, which S. Iohn calls Gods people: And sometimes the hid∣den Church which is in the Romane Church, and yet communicateth not with her abominations; which some call the Church in the wildernesse. A∣gaine, A Church is said to bee true, di∣uers wayes: As first materially, in that it consisteth of a people comprehen∣ded within the compasse of Gods Co∣uenant of life, and saluation: Second∣ly, formally, in regard of frame, and constitution: Thirdly, accidentally, in regard of soundnes, and outward com∣munion. Thirdly, a Church is said to be truly visible for the true markes of a Church which it hath; either in re∣gard of it selfe within it selfe; in which

respect, the Churches in persecution are truly visible, though their enemies and others which are not of their num∣ber see them not: Or in regard of the world abroad: whether Christians or Infidels which know her assemblies: And in this latter sense againe, it is said to be visible, either strictly and proper∣ly, when the whole Church is visible at once, and all together (which is onely true of particular Congregations) or largely and Synechdochically, when the whole cannot bee visible together, and at once, but by pe••cemeale, and suc∣cession: and so the Catholique Church here on earth may truly be said to bee visible. Thus you see how great ambi∣guity there is in the sense of these few words, The Church of Rome is a true and truly visible Church.

Now in the second place, to apply all this to our present purpose. Although diuerse men doe set the state of this question diuersly, as may best serue for their owne priuate ends and purposes: yet I will take it in the largest extent, and as it may bee most fauourable for

the Church of Rome: Thus; Whether the Catholike Church of Rome (as it is called in opposition to the Dioces) in re∣gard of the whole body thereof compoun∣ded of Clergy and Laity, bee still within the couenant of Gods sauing grace: and haue such markes of that couenant still a∣biding in it, that though properly at once, and all together it cannot bee visible, yet by peece-meale, and successiuely, it may truly be said so to be. And so much for the state of the question and his first dis∣order. His second point of disorder is in misplacing his owne arguments; which I take not as if it were done ig∣norantly, as not knowing what hee should haue done; (for hee excuseth himselfe for it, supposing it superfluous to doe it) but artificially for his best ad∣uantage; It seemes hee trusted more to the gentlenesse of his aduersaries, and to his owne abilitie in opposing them; then to the strength of his owne, and his power to maintaine them; and so brings them in as it were by way of am∣bu••••. But howsoeuer it hath pleased him to proceed; I may not passe them

ouer in this place without tryall; vnless I would incurre the same suspition: Let vs see therefore how hee proueth the negatiue.

His first argument, (wherein he pla∣ceth his greatest confidence) is briefly propounded pag. 24. but more at large pag. 90. of his Aduertisement, and it lyeth thus.

That Church which denieth, yea ac∣curseth, the sauing faith of Iesus Christ vnto Iustification; allowing on∣ly such a faith which can neuer saue a man, but is a gracelesse faith, separa∣ble from grace, and which a man may carie with him into Hell; that is an Apostatized Church; vtterly falne away from Christ, wherein no salua∣tion is to be found, or hoped for:

But the Church of Rome doth all this: Ergo.

To which I answer; by denying all: I deny the proposition, because it is so∣phisticall: The assumption, because it is false: and I need not then doubt to deny the conclusion. The proposition is sick of that Sophisme, which the Lo∣gicians

call secundum plures interroga∣tiones, or propositiones: that is, when many Propositions are ioyned together in one, whereof some are true, some false: as here are at least three. One, that the Church (so bablingly described) is an apostatised Church: another, that it is vtterly fallen away from Christ: a third, that no saluation is to be found or hoped for therein. Of which the first onely is true, and the rest notoriously false, and against the Scripture: for first, to denie, yea to accurse sauing Faith, & to allow the contrary, is not a point of totall & finall Apostasie, vnles it be ioy∣ned with malice and obstinacie; and be the sinne against the holy Ghost, to which repentance is vtterly denyed. Else what shall wee say of S. Peter who both denyed and cursed the knowledge of Christ in himselfe. Secondly, if this be true, (as it is) then may saluation be found, and hoped for, notwithstanding that de••iall, cursing, and approbation. Thirdly, it must be remembred, that our question is of the whole body of the Church, that i••▪ neither of the po∣pular

part onely, nor of the represen∣tatiue onely, but of both together: if then the one part onely shall doe as he saith, and not the whole body, who can say that there is no saluation to bee found therein, or that it is vtterly falne away from Christ. So much for the Proposition.

In the next place I say the Assump∣tion is euidently false, if not more then slanderous: For first the Church of Rome (whether partially, or wholly vn∣derstood) neuer denyed, neuer accursed sauing and iustifying Faith, nor euer allowed a gracelesse faith onely which cannot saue, &c. Looke vpon all the Canons of the Councell of Trent, and see whether any such thing bee to bee found therein, or gathered therefrom: doth it not distinguish betweene a li∣ving and a dead faith? And doth it not say that the liuing Faith only iustifieth, and not the dead? what is it then that it denyeth and accurseth? It is this, first, the forme and manner of Iustification by Faith: when it is said to iustifie as the very forme of Iustification, and not

as a meere disposition thereto. Second∣ly this assertion, that a dead faith sepa∣rate from grace is not a true faith; though it cannot iustifie: this is that which the Counsell denyeth and accur∣seth in this case, and no more; yet you say boldly if not impudently, pag. 25. If any dare deny this hee will but bewray his shamelesse ignorance in this point. In what point M. Burton? That the Coun∣cell of Trent admitteth of no other faith then that which the Deuils and damned in hell haue? O mouth! O forehead! Haue they a liuing Faith; which is fruit∣full in good workes? Such a Faith as S. ••ames commendeth? And doth not the Councell admit of this Faith? yea of this onely for Iustification? Reade the latter part of the seuenth Chapter of the sixt Session, and bee a∣shamed. Secondly, say the Counsell had done so indeed; Doth the whole Church of Rome doe it? Doth the po∣pular part therof doe it? By your owne words, page 25. they denie it. Yea but they beleeue as the Church beleeues. True, but with a secret condition, If

the Church beleeue well, and in that onely wherein it beleeueth aright: Be∣ing deceiued in nothing, but that they trust the Church too much; for if they could be perswaded shee beleeueth a∣misse in any thing, therein they would not beleeue as she doth. But you will proue that Romes iustifying faith is dif∣ferent in kinde from the true sauing Faith of Christ. How? Can you tell? Marry thus.

That faith which Christ commendeth for the onely true sauing faith, doth so iustifie a man that hee shall neuer come into condemnation, but passe from death vnto life:

But the onely faith which the Church of Rome alloweth doth not so.

Ergo, Aduertisement. pag. 91.

I answere: A Papist, or Arminian would denie the Proposition; but I grant it, and deny the Assumption: for let the Church of Rome confesse what she will in her owne wrong; I say, that that faith which the Church of Rome onely alloweth for iustification (viz a liuing faith fruitfull in good workes)

doth so saue, and iustifie a man, that hee cannot goe with it into condemnation: and dare you say the contrary? This is his first Argument.

The second is this:

That Church which cleaueth to Anti∣christ as her head, whence she recei∣ueth all her spirituall life, is no true Church; nor hath any saluation to be found, or hoped for in her.

But the Church of Rome doth so.

Ergo. Aduertisement. pag. 91. 92.

I denie the Assumption; Not for that I denie the Pope to be Antichrist, or for that I would support the church of Rome in any of her abominations: but first, because the church of Rome doth not acknowledge the Pope to be Anti∣christ, and so cleaueth not to him as her head in that name: Secondly, because, although some Popes haue antichristi∣anly said, that all spirituall grace and life is deriued from the Pope, and that some of their Parasites haue flatteringly ac∣knowledged it, yet neither the repre∣sentatiue church of Rome by it selfe, nor the popular by it selfe, much lesse the

whole and entire body did euer yeeld vnto it; but haue from time to time op∣posed themselues against it: especially if the question be of an absolute, foue∣raigne, and supreme head; and not of a subordinate and ministeriall head, as you propound it: Thirdly, because in these spiritual things there is such a con∣iunction of good and euill in this life, that though the one cannot be separa∣ted from the other, yet the one is not confounded with the other; so as each of them receiues its life seuerally from its owne head, and not from the head of the other: As it is in the regenerate man, in whom the flesh and the spirit are alwaies companions in this life; yet so, as the flesh receiueth nothing from the holy Ghost, nor the spirit from A∣dams transgression. And so is it in the case wee haue in hand: for in the church of Rome there is an inseparable coniunction of Babylon and the people of God, yet so as Babylon receiues no grace from Christ, nor the people of GOD apostafie from the Pope, for being members of both in diuers re∣spects,

they haue grace from the one, and apostasie from the other, which in them are indeed nothing but flesh and spirit: And so much for his second Argument.

The third, pag. 34. hereof, is thus framed: A true visible Church hath the true markes of a true visible Church:

But the Church of Rome hath not those true markes. Ergo.

The Assumption whereof being to be denyed, hee proueth it partly from the doctrine of the Church of England, and partly from Bellarmine the mouth of the Church of Rome. For the Church of England, the Homily for Whitsunday saith: The true Church of Christ hath alwayes three notes or marks whereby it is knowne: Pure and sound doctrine, &c. Now if you would compare this with the Church of Rome, &c. To which I answer, That these words must receiue a fauourable construction; or else they make as much against him, as against vs; and with such constructi∣on they make more for vs, then for him.

And what is this construction? First, they must bee vnderstood of the acci∣dentall truth of the Church in regard of soundnesse, (as the words doe ex∣presly import) and not of essentiall truth in regard of Gods Couenant: Secondly, they must bee vnderstood euen of soundnesse comparatiuely, and not simply, that is, in regard of the Pri∣mitiue Church, and not otherwise. Else hee must grant, that the Church of Rome hath not beene a true visible Church these nine hundred yeares: where as he allowes it to haue beene so till the Councell of Trent, as appeareth in all this Discourse.

Now for Bellarmine▪ I am sory such a superficiall. Reader should meddle with him, to the shame of our whole Nation: Marke how hee reasoneth; Bellarmine disclaimeth these three as proper markes of the Church: Ergo the Church of Rome hath them not. I pray what consequence is here? First may not a man disclaime that which he hath, for some si••ister respects best knowne to himselfe? as pride, and pre∣sumption

in medling in causes, and with persons too high for him, and the like? Secondly, doth Bellarmine dis∣claime them simply, and not onely in comparison of meere proper markes? Thirdly, may not the Church of Rome haue them as markes common to all Churches, true and false; though not as proper to the true Church? Fourth∣ly, doth not Bellarmine De Eccles. lib. 3. cap. 2. §. Nostra autem sententia (con∣tradicting himselfe) put these three in∣to the definition of the Church? and doth hee not by them distinguish the Church from all other sorts of men whatsoeuer? Professione verae fidei, Sa∣cramentorum communione, subiectione ad proprium Rastorem? Fiftly, is it not a Maxime of Bellarmines, lib. 1. de Sa∣crament. in genere cap. 26. §. Respondeo, Sacramenta, that the Sacraments and the word of God, and the rest, semper solius esse Ecclesie, etiamsi interdum ex∣tra Ecclesia in inueniantur? what dealing then is this, to play the Sophister so palpably à dicto secundum quid, ad 〈…〉〈…〉? This is his third Ar∣gument.

The fourth you shall finde pag. 35. to this purpose:

If the Church of Rome cannot demon∣strate it selfe to bee a true Church, then it is no true Church:

But it cannot: Ergo〈…〉〈…〉

To this many things are to be answe∣red; because both propositions are to be denyed: The former, because it is inconsequent: First, because want of demonstration takes not away the truth and true being of any thing; if it did, there are infinite things in the world, which should haue no being, or not be that which they are; euen the Scripture it selfe should not be the word of God, because it cannot be demonstrated so to be, to a naturall man. Secondly, be∣cause want of ability to make demon∣stration, especially of the parties owne being, is much lesse able to doe it: for how many millions of men and women are there in the world, which should cease to be that they are, if that were true? being vtterly vnable to demon∣strate themselues so to be? The latter proposition is to be denyed, because it

is vntrue: for if by demonstration, you meane, the proofe of those three marks mentioned in the Homily; the church of Rome can by them demonstrate her selfe to be a true Church (according to the kinde and proportion of truth) as well as any other Church: And all that will acknowledge her to bee a true Church, will and must acknowledge her to haue the true markes of the true Church, in the same degree of truth, wherein she is acknowledged to bee a true Church.

But you can proue by two argu∣ments, that she cannot doe it: First, be∣cause Bellarmine is constrained to con∣fesse, that all his 15. markes cannot make it euidently true, but onely eui∣dently credible that it is a true Church: I answer, First this is not true; Bellar∣mine saith no such thing: hee hath not the word Onely: but thus he speaketh; Though they make it not euidently true, yet doe they make it euidently credible: yea hee distinguisheth betweene Hea∣thens which admit not the Scriptures, and Christians which doe; and saith,

that to them it makes them euidently credible; but to these euidently true as well as euidently credible: Lib. 4. de not is Eccles. cap. 3. §. Dicimus ergo. This therefore is not good dealing. Second∣ly, this is the same fallacy of arguing à dicto secundum quid, ad dictum simpli∣citer, wherein you offended afore:

He cannot doe it by these his fifteene markes (say you:)

Ergo, he cannot doe it at all.

Is this a good kinde of reasoning? In∣deed it argueth his folly, or rather mad∣nesse in forsaking those markes, which can demonstrate it, and cleaning to those which cannot doe it; but it doth not proue that he cannot doe it by any other meanes.

In the second place therefore you indeauour to proue it by Romes owne doctrine, and confession: about her bap∣tisme, (the onely relique (say you) which some suppose is sufficient to proue her a true Church) which is this, That the efficacy of baptisme depends vp∣on the Priests intention: whereof because no man can be certaine, therefore no man

can bee certaine whether hee were rightly baptised; and so cannot bee certaine that he is a true member of the Church: From which confession you reason thus:

That which no one Papist can demon∣strate, all of them put together can∣not demonstrate:

But no one of them can demonstrate himselfe to be a true member of the Church: Ergo, not all together.

And what the?

That Church whose members either se∣uerally or together cannot demon∣strate themselues to bee members of the true Church, cannot demon∣strate her selfe to be a true Church:

But the members of the Church of Rome, neither seuerally, nor toge∣ther can doe it:

Ergo, She her selfe cannot doe it.

That I may giue a full and sufficient an∣swer to this large argument, which is taken from Romes owne doctrine and confession: I must signifie vnto him; that it seemes to me that he knowes not what Romes doctrine and confession in this point is: First therefore hee must

know, that the Church of Rome hath not yet determined fully what the in∣tention of the Priest in baptising, or of the Bishop in ordaining is: They say indeed, that a virtuall intention is suffi∣cient, without the actuall, or habituall: But what is that virtuall intention? Some say, that the very pronouneing of the words, I baptise thee, &c. are suf∣ficient thereto; Nec aliud requiri ex par∣te ministri, and that there is no more required on the behalfe of the Mini∣ster: So Thomas, Part. 3. de Sacr. qu. 64. art. 8. ad 2. and so Catharine the Bishop of Minori in the Councell of Trent, held and affirmed: And Bellar∣mine himselfe though of the contrary opinion, (viz. that the inward inten∣tion of the Priest is required) yet is con∣strained to distinguish de perfectione Sa∣cramenti; simpliciter, & absolutè; & de perfectione eiusdem coram hominibus: and so agreeth, that if wee respect the perfection of the Sacrament before men, the outward prolation of the words is sufficient. Lib. 1. de Sacr. in ge∣nere, cap. 28. §. Ad locum obiectum.

Secondly, hee must know what cer∣tainty it is which the Church of Rome meaneth, when she confesseth that no man can be certaine of the intention of the Priest: for shee distinguisheth of certainty in this case: One is certainty of faith, which is infallible; another humane, and morall; the former shee confesseth cannot ordinarily bee had: but the latter may: which she accoun∣teth to be sufficient; and this comes full to Vega; who denieth infallible certain∣tie of saluation; because no man can haue infallible certainty of the truth of his baptisme, for want of the like cer∣tainty of the Priests intention: but on the contrary, for morall and coniectu∣rall certainty, he acknowledgeth that a man may and ought to haue it of the Priests intention, (vnlesse hee declare his naughty minde by some outward signe) and so of the truth of his bap∣tisme; and lastly of his owne saluation. For which distinction see Bellarmine vbi supra. §. Respondeo, non debere ho∣minem.

These things premised, his Argu∣ments

are easily answered. First there∣fore the Assumption of the last is deni∣ed: for they professe themselues able to demonstrate both seuerally and toge∣ther that they are true members of the true Church; because they haue suffici∣ent certaintie of the truth of their Bap∣tisme; because they haue a like suffici∣ent certaintie of the Priests intent on; leaning secrets vnto God; and so all that is builded hereon, that the Church cannot demonstrate her selfe to bee a true Church, falls flat to the ground; which may also be said of the intention of the Bishop in ordaining. Secondly, how can hee proue the Assumption, vn∣lesse he goe through all the Church of Rome from man to man, and from wo∣man to woman, and examine what they can say for the truth of their Baptisme. It is twenty to one, but some one or o∣ther can shew a Reuelation, that the Priest had an actuall intention to doe as the Church doth in baptising him: Thirdly, they say they can say as much to assure them of the Priests intention in their Baptisme, as we which are bap∣tised

in our infancie, can say to assure vs that we were baptised: which is onely the Church booke, and testimonie of our Parents, Godfathers, Godmothers and other friends, which is onely hu∣mane, morall & coniecturall assurance, and not diuine and infallible, See Bellar∣mine vbi supra. § Et Nota. So much for the fourth.

The last Argument pag. 32. is this:

That Church which wants the ordina∣ry meanes of saluation, is no true Church:

But the Church of Rome wants the or∣dinary meanes of saluation, the prea∣ching, and hearing of the Gospell: yea it teacheth hers, to hate and ab∣horre it, and to call it heresie.

Ergo.

I answer they want it, & they want it not: They hate it, and they hate it not: They want and hate the soundnes, and puritie thereof, as it is enioyed in the Reformed Churches; but they neither want nor hate it, as it is corrupted by their owne traditions; which cannot wholly depriue it of all sauing vertue,

as hath been already prooued. And why (I pray) should wee not bee content in common commiseration to beare with them in this case; as we doe with those people which dwell in fenny, foggy & marish grounds, and countries, who comming into places of fresh ayre, and healthy dyet, doe complaine that it is not good nor wholsome, because it a∣grees not with their more grosse con∣stitution? If another man liue by poy∣soned meates, I will not enuie him, so long as I feede on that which is sound, and mans meate (as wee say.) And so much for his Arguments.

Thus haue I shewed Mr. Burtons se∣cond point of disorder in misplacing his Arguments; and haue (as well as I can) righted it, and answered them. The third and last followes, which are his idle Repetitions, and Tautologies; which if they were taken out of his booke, it would bee by the one halfe, lesse then it is: as will appeare by the answer to the particulars.

Now here I must craue fauor of the Christian Reader, that (being constrai∣ned

by the misbehauiour of our aduer∣sary, to lay open his foule ouer-sights, in charging the Church of Rome, the Councell of Trent, and Bellarmine with vntruths, which hee ought not to haue done) hee would not suppose me to be any whit inclining or addicted to Pope∣rie (as the manner of the world is now∣a dayes.) No: I praise God I am as farr from Popery, as M. Burton himselfe is or can be. But I would not haue men eyther to maintaine bad causes against the Church of Rome, or to maintaine good causes with bad arguments, and least of all to maintaine bad causes with worse arguments, (as I know too many haue done to our no little disaduan∣tage). It is an excellent point of man∣hood to let the enemy haue his vtmost due; and not to ••eelie to ouercome him by base and cowardly meanes. This I desire, and haue alwayes endeoured; and this is all which hitherto I haue done in this Treatise, or purpose to doe hereafter. And if the good Reader will be placed to beleeue mee, and to grant me this reasonable motion; I hope hee

shall perceiue that I haue not abused ei∣ther him, or mine aduersary, or my cause, or my Lord, (whose cause I haue vndertaken) or my selfe in vndertaking it: and so I proceede.

BVRTON.

Before wee proceede to the third Viall, for the fuller confirmation of what hath beene said of the estate of the church of Rome, whose Sea of doctrines is all turned into mortall blood in the second viall: it will bee very requisite here to discusse one question:

Whether the Church of Rome be eyther a true Church, or a true visi∣ble Church?

Answer.

Here is a long Exordium to a short Cause: of which it may truely be said, Causaanceps, Exordium vitiosum: Such a Cause, such an Exordium; Such a Cup, such a Couer In which (contai∣ning a whole lease) hee craueth fauour and attention, after the manner of the Orators, from three Rhetoricall argu∣ments; The qualitie of the question His owne good handling there of and

The condition of his owne person, The question affords him two fauourable arguments: One, for that it is requisite to be discussed in this place: Another, for that it is waightie and of great mo∣ment. The necessitie of the discussion is for the fuller confirmation of that hee hath said of the Church of Rome. And indeede it is very necessary that hee proue, and that very substantially and soundly (as hee saith in the words fol∣lowing) That the Church of Rome is ney∣ther a true, nor a true visible Church; or else all hee hath said is nor worth a rush. For if it be, then is not her Sea of Do∣ctrines turned into mortall blood in this second Viall: nor the Councell of Trent this Sea of mortall blood, nor Chemnitius the Angell, nor any thing so as hee hath said. But marke here (I pray) his Circulation: Before, he pro∣ued the Church of Rome to bee no true Church, because all her doctrines are mortall: and now hee proues all her do∣ctrines to be mortall, because 〈◊〉〈◊〉 is no true Church, which manner of reason∣ing goes for currant with him, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 all

this part of his Treatise. But let that passe. Now if his answers proue no bet∣ter then his arguments haue done (as I doubt they will not,) it had beene farre more requisite for him to haue left this question altogether indiscussed in this place, and to haue proceeded directly to the third Viall without any more a∣doe; for so both hee and his followers might haue fallen into the ditch with∣out any obseruation; whereas now all the world must take notice thereof to their shame and discredit.

BVRTON.

A question of so much the greater moment, by how much some, by their ••o small authoritie, and no lesse renow∣ned opinion in the Church, doe so sway the ballance on that side, that many ill affected, & of the aduerse party, taking the aduantage, are apt to catch the word out of their mouth, and to say, Thy mother Church of Rome, &c.

Answer.

This is the second Argument by which the Question begs him some fa∣uou•••• for indeed it cannot be d••••yed

to be very waightie, tending either to the admission or expulsion of many mil∣lions of soules eyther into, or out of the Church of Christ. But both his com∣paratiue amplification, and his Rheto∣ricall anticipation (by the one whereof hee would breede enuy to his aduersa∣ries, not onely for oppressing the truth with their authoritie, and estimation in the Church; but also for giuing a pe∣rillous, and vnseasonable aduantage to the Papists, and popishly affected: and by the other would free himselfe and his from fault) I say both of these doe admit many, and those very iust excep∣tions. For first, who are those some in authoritie in the Church, of whom he speaketh? I doubt not but hee meaneth his elect aduersaries, & other reuerend Fathers, and Ministers of our Church, who are of a contrary opinion to him: But our worthy fellow, and friend, M. William Bedle (now Rector of the Colledge and Vniuersitie of Dubline) in his Letters to Waddesworth, pag. 75. tels him, and that in truth, That this opi∣nion is not onely fauoured of many great

Scholars in England, but is the common opinion of all the best Diuines of the Re∣formed Churches that are, or haue beene in the world. And it is so well known to the common Aduersaries, that Brier∣ley in his Apologie of the Romane Church, Tract. 1. Sect. 6. Subdivis. 3. And Smith in his booke of the Author and essence of the Protestant Church and R••ligion, Lib. 1. cap. 2. haue made whole Catalogues of them; wherein you shall finde truly billed, The Augu∣stane Confession, Luther, Caluin, Iunius, Zanchius, Plessaeus, Bucanus, Polanus, Saravia, Boysseul, Vorstius, and Martyr: And of our owne, King Iames, An∣drewes, Hooker, Covell, Whitaker, More∣ton, Feild, Powel, Reinolds, White, and Hall our reuerend Diocesan, our ioy & crowne, and your meeke, and sweet spi∣rited aduersary, as you truly call him, pag. 52. To whom they adde by neces∣sary consequence many more, as Beza, Melancthon, Pappus, Schusselburge, Io∣annes Regius, Leonardus Crentremius, Whitgift, Lubbertus, Brentius, Magde∣burgenses, Da••aeus, Iuel, Fulk, Bale,

Zuinglius, Bucer, Molinaeus, Bell, Ma∣son, Sadeel, yea and Perkins himselfe, who of all the rest seemes to be furthest off from this opinion; but these they adde, because they allow them the Co∣uenant, the calling of Pastors, the hol∣ding of all the necessary points of the foundation, and saluation it selfe, which being granted, the true Church cannot be denyed vnto them.

Loe these are the some, which sway the ballance on the contrary side to you, being indeed of no small authority, and ••o less renownd opinion in the church; And not some few in our Church of note and authority, as you would insi∣nuate.

Secondly, who are those many ill af∣fected, and of the aduerse partie, who take aduantage hereof? and when did they do it? you would make the world beleeue that this were a new thing oc∣casioned by these some in authority, whom you haue made your aduersaries: But they are no lesse then the whole Church of Rome, and that euen from our first separation from her; as may

appeare by the Apologies of all the re∣formed Churches; and by Bellarmine: thirteenth note of the Church de Eccles. lib. 4. cap. 16. Sect. Idem de Haereticis, herein therefore you are greatly to bee blamed.

Thirdly, what is the aduantage which they take? and what is the perill there∣of? doubtlesse some extraordinarie thing (I warrant you) neuer heard of, before these men gaue it in these luke∣warme, indifferent, neutralizing dayes; Thy Mother Church of Rome; forsooth: A perillous aduantage, I promise you; To acknowledge that truth in luke∣warme times, which was alwayes open∣ly knowne and professed: For whoe∣uer denyed, but wee were sometimes members of that Church? and with what face can it be denied? of which I may well say, (as Saint Paul said in a∣nother case) if it be perilous, it is peri∣lous to them that perish, in whom the god of this world hath blinded their eyes that they should beleeue lyes, be∣cause they neuer entertained the truth in loue; and if to them it bee perilous,

let it be perilous; their blood be vpon their owne heads: If we testifying our loue and good opinion of them in the bowells of Christ Iesus; they turne it to their owne perdition; wee are not vnder bondage in this case: But if any aduantage be to be taken in this respect, vndoubtedly (saith worthy Bedel, vbi supra) we haue it of them, and not they of vs, in that what we doe, we doe it of charity; but they of ignorance, or ma∣lice, or both.

BVRTON.

Popery hath learned to get ouer the stile againe fast enough without our helpe.

Answer.

Master Burton; do we helpe Popery (as it were an old dogge) ouer the stile againe, in acknowledging this truth? No, this is Non causa pro causa: If this would haue helped, the stile had neuer beene made; that which helpeth it ouer is the iust iudgement of God for our sinnes; and especially for the contempt of the sincere truth of the Gospell: and not the maintaining of any truth: let

vs truly repent of them, and I dare be bold to say in the name of God, that, This shall neuer helpe Popery more ei∣ther now, or hereafter, then it hath done alwaies heretofore.

BVRTON.

Though it were true that the church of Rome were a true Church yet the countenancing or pressing of it in these times might very well be spared.

Answer.

Indeed you are the onely religious Politician of these times, and know bet∣ter what is to bee done in these cases, then they that sit at the sterne: There is no man so senslesse (I suppose) but he knowes, that all truths are not either to be published, vrged, or countenan∣ced at all times. There is a time for all things, (saith Salomon) A time to keepe silence, and a time to speake: But when these times are, it were farre better for you, and me, and all priuate persons to leaue to the wisedome of our Gouer∣nours, then to prescribe any thing to them therein: But now a dayes all men will be Priuy Councellors; and he is a

very dolt, that cannot gouern the whole State, Church, and Kingdome, far bet∣ter then now it is gouerned. So much for the amplification.

BVRTON.

But why then (say they) doe others cry downe the Church of Rome for no true Church at all 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Surely, this was a fault, if it were an vntruth: For giue the deuill his due (as we say.) It is good therefore that all men be well aduised in this point, in speaking of the Church of Rome Pro or contra, as a true church or no; it being a matter not to be main∣tained by finenesse of wit, or quaint rhe∣toricall discourse, but vpon sound ground, & substantiall demonstration.

Answer.

This is your anticipation; wherein you answer a supposed obiection, ther∣by to free your selfe from fault in cry∣ing downe the truth, and true visibility of the Church of Rome; It is no fault (say you) because it is no vntruth: But you know that is the question: And besides, haue you so soone forgotten your owne policy? That though it were

true, yet the countenancing, or pressing of it in these times might very well bee spa∣red? Can you imagine that in these lukewarme, indifferent, neutralizing dayes, you shall not find enow that will take vp the bucklers against you? will you giue the onset, and bee faultlesse? and shall they only that oppose you be the offenders? there is no reason at all for that; In a mutiny it is hard but both sides will bee found faulty: well then; Let the Deuill haue his due (say you; and so say I too) yet it is good (say you) that all men be well aduised in this point, &c. Let this word stand: Only I craue that it may not be taken for granted (which you rhetorically beg of your friends,) that you haue the sound grounds, and substantiall demonstrations; and that wee haue nothing but finenesse of wit, and quaint rhetoricall discourses: and vpon these termes let the cause bee de∣termined: And so much for the quality of the question.

BVRTON.

Now for the more cleare and full, yet briefe discussion of the point, it shall

suffice onely to answer such arguments as are vsed for it; whereupon the po∣sitiue truth will easily be concluded.

Answer.

Now you come to the second argu∣ment of your Exordium, by which you scrape acquaintance with your Rea∣ders; which is, a promise to handle this question well; that is, clearly, fully, and briefly; to which end you thinke it suf∣ficient to answer such arguments as are vsed against you: But how you offend herein I haue shewed already.

BVRTON.

Wherein I must craue pardon, ha∣uing to deale in so weighty a cause, and with such mighty Authors, as haue already tanquam e Cathedra defined it. But God forbid that the try all of truth should depend vpon the opinion of any mans person; though neuer so great, or esteemed in the opini∣on of the learned. My brethren (saith Saint Iames) haue not the faith of our Lord Iesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons: And 〈…〉〈…〉 Saint Augustine against Maximi∣nus

an Arrian Bishop, said) Nec ••u mihi Ariminense, nec ego tibi Nice∣num Concilium objiciam, &c.

Answer.

This is the third argument taken from the condition of your person, being so weake and vnworthy to deale in such a cause, and with such Authors: wherein first you craue pardon of your boldnes, and after cleare your selfe of such impu∣tations, as may be laid to your charge: For the former; it is counted the part of an vnwise man to craue pardon of a fault, when it is in his owne power not to offend: If it bee a fault, why would you runne into it? if it be none, why do you craue pardon? But indeed it can∣not be denied to be a great fault for any man to meddle in matters too high, and with persons too great for him, if Da∣uid, Psalm. 131. 1. and Siracides, Ecclus, 8. 1. say true: For as Py••••acus counselled his friend in the case of mariage to doe as the ••••ies playing w^th top & scourge, said one to another, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉: T•• tibi su〈…〉〈…〉rem: Take to thy selfe thy peere〈…〉〈…〉 is it good 〈◊〉〈◊〉 euery man to

contend with his match, and not to meddle with his betters, vnlesse he will befoole himselfe in the end But it is the triall of truth (you say) and God forbid that should depend vpon the opinion of a∣ny mans person: True: But first a man must be sure of a warrant for his doing; for euery man may not contend with his betters in triall of truth vpon his owne head. Secondly, he must not be∣haue himselfe lawe••ly (as you do here) saying they haue defined the contrary, tanquam è Cathedra: Else it may fall out (as you say to the Papists, pag. 24.) that God forbid will not serue the turne: neither will S. Iames (who would not haue many mast〈…〉〈…〉s) speake for you: nor Saint Augustine (who contended with his fellow Bishop) plead for you. And so much for your petition.

BVRTON.

Nor let any man here impute pre∣sumption to the weakness or vnworthi∣nesse of my person, as though I tooke a pride to bee 〈…〉〈…〉edling with such high matters, and wherein great ones are interessed: Alas, God knowes, I

take so little pride herein, &c.

Answer.

Come wee now to your purgation, wherein you cleare your selfe of pride and presumption by way of anticipati∣on: Some man perhaps would say, Vbi dolor, ibi digitus; and that where men are guilty of greatest weaknesse, there they make greatest preparation; and that when a man cleares himselfe with∣out an accuser, Aliquid latet, quod non patet: But seeing you call God to wit∣nes, I had rather beleeue you, then sus∣pect you; yet giue me leaue to tell you what I could say against you, if I were disposed; notwithstanding all you can say for your selfe to the contrary. First, Dauid, vbi supra, makes it an infallible note of pride to be exercised in matters and with persons of this quality. Se∣condly, many passages in this your se∣cond Viall (to goe no further) do send forth a ranke sauor of some such thing: as first, those words, Though it were true, that the Church of Rome were a true Church, yet the countenanting, or pressing it in these times, might very well bee spa∣red;

which are very high: So those; It is good for all men to be well aduised in this point, it being a matter not to be maintai∣ned by finenesse of wit, &c. wherein you couertly praise your selfe, and dispraise your aduersaries intollerably. So those, I must craue pardon, hauing to deale with such Authors, as haue already tanquam 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Cathedra defined the cause. Insolent words. Then those, Cucullus non facit Monachum; which is as much as if you had said, A Rochet makes not a Bishop. And those, What a strange doctrine is this for a learned Doctor (and more then so) of the Church of England) to teach? Doth he not deserue to be the Popes white sonne for it? which are words of reproach. Finally those, Now let the Reuerend Au∣thor iudge indifferentlie, hauing well waighed the former reasons, whether wee doe ill or no in taking this his saying ill; or whether wee had not reason to haue expec∣ted an ingenuous Palinodie, or Augustine like retraction, rather then such an Apo∣logie; which whether it be rather to bee pi∣tied, then any vncharitablenesse in the reader in taking such a saying ill; let iu∣dicious

charity it selfe iudge: where may a man finde pride, if here bee none? yet for all this, you professe many things to the contrary; as first that

BVRTON.

My heart is euen torne in sunder, to see the rufull rents of the Church of God, and the truth so opposed, so op∣pressed.

Answer.

But Ieremie tells you, the heart is de∣ceitfull aboue measure; and the learned say, that it is not so deceitfull in any thing as in pride; in so much as if it were possible to be without pride, yet would it be proud that it is not proud: and so euen while your heart is torne in sunder with sorrow, you may be proud in exercising your selfe in things, and with persons that be too high, notwith∣standing.

BVRTON.

And when Gods glory suffers, pardon mee, if I professe my selfe a poore de∣fendent.

Answer.

What? without a calling? might

not Vzza put forth his hand to stay the shaking of the Arke, and may you doe it? But wherein (I pray) doth Gods glorie suffer any thing in our case? Is it any dishonour to God to be faithfull in keeping his couenant for euer, euen with his enemies? Is not this the high∣est point of his glorie, wherein of all the rest he most glorieth? O Master Burton, pretend not the glorie of God, against the glory of God, there is nothing more easie, more vsuall, more dangerous.

BVRTON.

Yea, my profession, not onely as a Christian, but much more as a Mini∣ster of the Gospel, bindes me to it.

Answere.

Then let all Christendome goe toge∣ther by the eares, and let Ministers bee the Ring-leaders and Boutefewes.

BVRTON.

And I know that God regardeth no mans person.

Answer.

True: But he will haue all men to be sure of a warrant for their doings.

BVRTON.

And as the prouerbe is, Cucullus non facit Monachum.

Answere.

Neither doth the wearing of a Lions skin, make a Lyon.

BVRTON.

And were it not a matter so nearly concerning the glory of God, and the saluation of Mens soules, I had far ra∣ther sit mee downe in safe and sweet si∣lence, wherein I should haue the more opportunitie to pray for the peace of Ie∣rusalem, then any way stand vp to con∣tend.

Answere.

Indeede this is the thing which of all other you had most need to purge your selfe of. This contentious humor which (some say) is predominant in you: for (if Salomon say true) a man so qualified must needes bee presumptuous: And how doe you doe it? You pretend a∣gaine the glory of God. But you haue heard that that may be but a colour. Next, the saluation of mens soules: But how can that be, when you damne all

Papists to the Deuill? Thirdly, your choise of priuate retirednesse: But that is questionable. Lastly, your deuotion: But Quid verba audiam, cum facta vi∣diam?

BVRTON.

But it is Gods quarrell, and that a∣gainst Babylon.

Answer.

First, let that be proued: then let God bee a God of order, and not of confu∣sion.

BVRTON.

Peace is beautifull indeed; but there is a what peace? In which regard Christ the Prince of peace said, I came not to send peace into the earth, but a sword. As faire as peace is, wee must not make an Idoll of it, we must keepe Christs peace.

Answer.

God forbid else: But we must know then of what spirit we are. Wee haue had late experience of the too 〈◊〉〈◊〉 de∣sire of many forward spirits to breake our peace, and to vnsheathe the sword, but I cannot be perswaded, that eyther

this is Christs sword, o•• that that was not Christs p••••be.

BVRTON.

And in these perillous dayes it being almost as dangerous to bee ignorant of the mystery of iniquitie; as of the my∣stery of Godlinesse; let no man thinke it labour superfluous, or presumptuous, to search out the true mysterie of Po∣pery.

Answer.

You say well: But first you must not doe it like Skogan, as well where it is not, as where•••• is: Then, you must not doe it so, that you take away all the my∣stery thereof at one blow, by denying the Romane Church to bee a true, or true visible Church of Christ: ••or where then is any mysterie? Is there a∣ny mysterie in Iudaisme, ••urcisme, or Paganisme.

BVRTON.

But (I say) in this 〈◊〉〈◊〉 kinde of 〈…〉〈…〉 vpon 〈◊〉〈◊〉.

Answer.

〈◊〉〈◊〉 〈◊〉〈◊〉 〈◊〉〈◊〉 est Necessitie,

with a great N. hath imposed this task vpon you, and woe be to you if you do it not: If you had said so much a first, it had beene enough. This is that I ex∣pected all this while: but I hope I shall make it appeare, that this Necessitie was neuer of Gods imposition. And so much for your Preface: Let vs now ex∣amine your sound and substantiall An∣swers.

But here I must admonish the Reader, that he dealeth with three seuerall Au∣thors: with two hee contendeth very briefly, and with a kinde of neglect, a∣bout saluation in the Church of Rome: with the third (being a Reuerend An∣tistes of the Church of England) hee findeth himselfe more to do: & that (as I suppose) because a kinde of Necessity hath imposed this taske vpon him.

BVRTON.

The first maine Argument, which would conclude the Church of Rome to be a true Church, is, because (say they) a man in that Church may be sa∣ued: for out of the Church no saluation; Therefore the Church of Rome must be

a true Church.

Answer.

These words, (as should seeme by the words say they) are common to both the former Authors: who (if they haue framed their maine argument no bet∣ter) are worthy to be blamed; vnlesse it were done popularly without suspition of opposition; as it may very well bee supposed: The argument is this.

• Out of the true Church of Christ there is no saluation:
• In the Church of Rome there is salua∣tion Ergo,
• The Church of Rome is not out of the true Church of Christ.

BVRTON.

Who are they that may bee saued in the Church of Rome? My Author ex∣presseth, An bonest ignorant Papist, or some ignorant silly soules &c. yea, and this is deliuered in the name of our Church, or at least of all those, that be∣ing affected to the Church of Rome in some good measure, would seeme to bee the Church of England.

Answer.

Whether you deale well with your Authors or no I know not: for you do not seuer them so wel as you should; and indeed wee shall finde in the end, that you might well haue ioyned them together as one man; for any disagree∣ment that can be found between them: It seemes here you haue to doe with one onely: for I must goe by guesse; not knowing wel what to make of your answer: you seeme to deny the Assump∣tion of the Argument, by demanding who may bee saued in the Church of Rome? and then bring in your author answering in the name of the Church of England: and indeed (taking the words you haue related, in a good sense, as I doubt not but the Author meant them, and not as you misconstrue them) they may well be deliuered, not onely in the name of our Church; but of all the reformed Churches in the world.

Author.

We acknowledge an honest ignorant Papist may be saued; and we haue not so learned Christ, as to deny

saluation to some ignorant silly soules, whose humble peaceable obedience makes them safe a∣mong any part of men, that pro∣fesse the foundation Christ.

BVRTON.

This makes well for Popish igno∣rance when all failes. This also giues liberty to any Religion, so it professe the foundation Christ, that therein a man may be saued.

Answer.

First, here is a good beginning with a notable point of sophistrie, ex compo∣sitione dividendorum: for he confounds two kindes of ignorance, which are as different one from another, as membra diuidentia can be: for better vnderstan∣ding whereof, we are to remember, that there are two kindes of ignorance: one negatiue, another priuatiue, (as the Schoolemen speake) The former is the ignorance of that which was neuer re∣uealed; or not reuealed sufficiently to procure distinct knowledge: The latter is the ignorance of that which a man might haue knowne distinctly if hee

would. These two are commonly cal∣led simple, & affected ignorance: Simple because a man is alwaies readie to em∣brace the knowledge of the truth, when it shall please God to reueale it: Affected, because a man delights in darknesse more then light, that his euill deeds may not be reproued: and both of these may befall the learnedest man in the world: As the former did Saint Paul before his conuersion; and some of the Rulers of the Iewes, as Saint Pe∣ter testifieth, Acts 3. 17. and as the latter did other of those Rulers who closed their eyes that they might not see, Mat. 13. 15. Now of these, the Author means the former onely, which is protestant ignorance as well as popish; and the Answerer abuseth him in vnderstand∣ing him of the latter; which indeed is true popish ignorance, and no other; for then a man is popishly ignorant, when he pleaseth himselfe in his igno∣rance, and is taught so to doe; and not when hee is willing to know, if hee had the meanes: and who doubteth but there are many millions of such in the

Church of Rome, which are those ig∣norant ••illy soules of whom the Author speaketh.

Secondly, hee changeth the state of the question; for whereas the Author saith such ignorants may bee saued a∣mong any part of mankind that profess the foundation Christ; that is, in any Christian Church; he turnes it into a∣ny Religion professing Christ; which is not the question: for the question is of the Church, and not of the Religion: and from hence he proceeds cunningly to his first question: Whether any ••a∣pist may bee saued by his religion: But here let it be acknowledged, that wee agree with S. Augustiue, lib. 1. de Bap∣tis▪ contra Donatistas: That the socie∣ties of all Heretiques, so farre as they retaine the profession of sauing truth, and the ministration of the Sacrament of Baptisme, are so farre forth still con∣ioyned with the Catholique Church of God; which in and by them bringeth forth children vnto God: Marke his words, Ecclesia Orthodoxa (saith hee) non Haeresis per Christi Baptismum gene∣rat,

qui generantur filij Dei etiam inter Haereticos.

BVRTON.

But here two questions would be re∣solued: First whether any Papist by his religion may be saued.

Answer.

Here hee diuideth one question into two, and maketh two Authors differ in opinion, which agree in one: And for the first question, it was neuer moued by any thing I can perceiue from his Authors. The question is, Whether any man liuing and dying a Papist, or member of the Church of Rome may be saued; and not, Whether any Papist may be saued by his religion. This ther∣fore is a trick of Leigerdumaine, wor∣thie such as pretend Gods glorie in hy∣pocrifie.

BVRTON.

For resolution, The Author rankes all Papists into two sorts; either lear∣ned, or silly ignorants. For the lear∣ned, hee confesseth it is very hard for them to be saued; but if ignorant more easie.

Answer.

If his Author doe as hee saith; hee marres a good cause in the handling; but I doubt he belies him, especially if this which he hath related be all that he saith. For these word•• doe not imply a diuision of all Papists into learned and silly ignorants; but of ignorant Papists into simple, and wilfull ignorants; and for the wilfull, he confesseth it impos∣sible for them to be saued, (if they so a∣bide,) whether they be learned or vn∣learned; but the simple, whether lear∣ned or vnlearned (in his opinion) may be saued: and so thinke I too.

BVRTON.

So then if a Papist be saued, he may thanke his ignorance.

Answer.

Was there euer any man in the world which would make such an inference? Saint Paul was a persecutor, blasphe∣mer, and wrong doer, but he obtained mercy because hee did it ignorantly in vnbeleefe: So then that Saint Paul ob∣taine 〈◊〉〈◊〉, he may thanke his igno∣rance and vnbeleefe. Apage. No, this

is all that can bee inferred there from; that such ignorance as this, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 not ponereobicē (as the Schoolmen speake) that is, lay a blocke in the way to salua∣tion, as the other doth; he may bee sa∣ued, notwithstanding this ignorance, though not for this ignorance, because it excuseth à tanto though not à totp: from the degree of sinne, though not from all sinne.

BVRTON.

But Christ the foundation is there prosessed well: but how with popish ig∣norance teach a man to bee saued by Christ? Faith comes by 〈…〉〈…〉ting, and without faith no saluation by Christ: But all Papists are taught to hate and abhorre 〈◊〉〈◊〉 preaching of the word; how then is it possible they should be saued? be they neuer so humble and peaceable Men.

Answer.

The farther, the worse: doth it fol∣low vpon any thing that hath been said, that Popish ignorance will teach a man to be saued by Christ, when it hath bin reno••nced as damnable? Nay wee

should shew our selues ideots, if wee should say, simple ignorance can doe it: But how then are these igno∣rants saued by Christ? why by faith (man) which comes by hearing the word preached: yea but they haue it not, nor can haue it; yea they abhorre it, and are taught so to doe. Fie for shame, that a man so well studied in the mystery of iniquitie, should be either so ignorant therein, or so ill affected to af∣firme so grosse an vntruth: Reade the Councell of Trent, Sess. 5. cap. 2. & 24. cap. 4. and see whether this bee true which he faith: It seemes hee hath not beene beholden to any of those many Cart-loads of Homilies, Sermons, Po∣stills, Meditations, Hiemals and Aesti∣ualls, which are so diligently preached in the Church of Rome, and farre bet∣ter, more soundly, and diligently since that Councell, then before: To which many of our: ordinary Preachers are much beholden: And I would they were not better taught there in some places, then ours are (dole••s dico) in ma∣ny Churches in England, Wales, and

Ireland: Indeed they are taught to hate our Preachers as heretickes, and our preaching as heresie; but if he say ther∣of that they haue none at all, or hate all, he deceiues himselfe, and others with his old fallacie, à dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter: And if he say their preaching cannot breed true sauing faith, I pitie him.

BVRTON.

As if a Papist though neuer so simple could be humble; there can be no grea∣ter pride, then that which hee takes in his ignorance; and can he be peaceable, whose chiefe article of his Creed is to beleeue the Pope to be supreme ••uer all Kings and princes, &c.

Answer.

If the thinke all Papists to bee such as he speakes of, hee is not onely vnchari∣table, but foolish. Those simple and silly ignorants, of which the Author speaketh, both may be, and 〈◊〉〈◊〉 humble, and peaceable, notwithstanding the pride and rebellion of the Po〈…〉〈…〉 o∣rants, and besides, how doth their 〈◊〉〈◊〉∣perie hinder them fro•• humilitie and

peaceablenesse, when their Kings and Princes themselues will haue them so to beleeue and hold?

BVRTON.

This is the beasts marke, which who so receiueth shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God, Reuel. 14. 9. No Papist then as a Papist can be saued.

Answer.

That the beleefe of the Popes supre∣macie in all spirituall things and causes, is the Beasts marke, is Petitio principij. And that all Papists doe receiue the Beasts marke is false; vnlesse hee will say none of them all are written in the Lambes booke of life, A Reuel. 13. 8. Which I 〈…〉〈…〉 not say. The Conclusion i•• altogether without pre∣misse 〈…〉〈…〉 if hee will-conclude any thing 〈…〉〈…〉 That 〈◊〉〈◊〉 apist can be saued and not that No Papist 〈…〉〈…〉 Papistoan be saued? For the Ang〈…〉〈…〉 〈…〉〈…〉 No 〈…〉〈…〉

marke: Ergo, No papist can be saued.

BVRTON.

And of Babylon (saith God) Come out of her my people, left ye be partakers of her sinnes, Reuel. 18. Babylon the dominion, and religion of the beast, of Antichrist; Nothing then therein to be expected, but the punishment of Babels sinnes.

Answer.

Babylon doth not alwayes signifie the dominion, and religion of the beast: sometimes it is taken 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, for the ve∣ry Citie, that is, the seate of his domi∣nion, the Citie of Rome, and so is it to be vnderstood, Reuel. 18. And for the Conclusion, I say the same I said of the former; that it hath no premisses for all that can well be concluded is this; That God calleth his people out of the ••i∣tie of Rome, when 〈◊〉〈◊〉 is vpon the point of destrsction, that they may not bodily pe∣rish with the wicked▪ 〈◊〉〈◊〉 I hope hee will noisay that Gods people may 〈…〉〈…〉 ingly pelish with them, though for a time they pa〈…〉〈…〉 with them 〈◊〉〈◊〉 〈◊〉〈◊〉

sinnes, and temporall punishments, as often, and ordinarily they doe. So much for the first question, and for the first Author.

The second question and Author.

May not a simple Papist miss-led by education or long custome, or o∣uer-valuing the soueraigntie of the Romane Church, & Io in the simplicitie of his heart imbracing them, find mercy at Gods hands, by a general repentance, and faith in the merit of Christ, attended with charitie, and other vertues?

BVRTON.

Here the state of the former question is quite altered: by Faith, and Repon∣tance no doubt, not onely an ignorant Papist, but euen an Infidell may finde mercy, &c.

Answere.

It is not true, the state it still the same, for the humble & 〈…〉〈…〉able obedience of the former question implyeth the Faith and Repentence required in this question for without true faith and re∣pentance,

there can be no humble and peaceable obedience: And so it is true which I said before, that hee diuideth one question into two, and maketh his Authors differ, which agree in one. Be∣sides, I would desire him to tell, why there hee denyed humilitie and peace∣able behauiour to all Papists, and yet here affords them Faith & Repentance to saluation? To this he answereth.

BVRTON.

But withall this silly Papist beleeuing and repenting, must necessarily repent him of all his Idolatry, as well as of all his other sinnes: yes (saith the Au∣thor) by a generall repentance and faith: what a strange doctrine is this for a learned Doctor to teach? Surely Bellarmine himselfe, with the whole rabble of Pontificians could doe no more, &c.

Answer.

See here how Sarcastically hee wri∣teth of the most wholsome, and Catho∣like doctrine of generall Faith and Re∣pentance; and of the Author for teach∣ing it: who if hee be a Doctor of the

Church of England, his fault is the greater: for why should this be Popish doctrine in his mouth, which in Per∣kinses is sound and orthodoxe? Doth not he say plainly in his Treatise of Re∣pentance, cap. 1. § Neither is this to trou∣ble any; That as God requires particu∣lar repentance for knowne sinnes, so he accepts a generall repentance for such as be vnknowne? And doth he not say also in the same place, That sound Re∣pentance for one speciall sinne, brings with it Repentance for all sinnes? And doth hee not say elsewhere, (Booke of Cases, lib. 1. cap. 2. Sect. 3. paragraph, But some may say) That, The greater this simple ignorance is, the lesser is the sinne? and that if we be carefull to obey God ac∣cording to our knowledge, hauing withall a care and desire to increase in the know∣ledge of God, and his will, God will haue vs excused. And is not this the selfe∣same (mutatis mutandis) which this Au∣thor or Doctor hath deliuered? If the Pope and Bellarmine, and the whole rabble of Pontificians would say no worse then so, it would be the best daies

worke wee did these seuenty yeares to be reconciled.

BVRTON.

But doth this generall repentance include Idolatry, with all popish trum∣pery, as things to bee repented of? If not, such repentance shall neuer bring him to saluation.

Answer.

Wee grant all: This Repentance in∣cludeth all vnknowne sinnes; and so all Idolatry, and all other popish trum∣perie.

BVRTON.

If it doe include them, then by faith in Christs merits he comes to be saued, not as a Papist, but as a true beleeuer, renouncing Popery, and then no God∣amercy to his popery, or to his silly igno∣rance.

Answer.

Loc here is the vpshot of all; this is his strong hold, wherein hee puts his whole trust in this question: And yet (God knowes) it is but a meere starting hole; as poore a shift, and euasion, as euer man can vse. Here then let it be

obserued, that hee vseth two points of Sophistry, and one of Folly: of Sophi∣stry, first in the word Papist; secondly, in the word renouncing. The word Pa∣pist is ambiguous, sometime it is vsed sensu composito, (as the Schoolemen speake) or largely: sometimes sensu di∣viso, or strictly. In the compound sense it signifieth (to inuert the words of Per∣kins) an vnreformed Catholike, that is, one that holds the same necessary heads of Religion with the Protestant Chur∣ches; yet so as he retaines all errours in doctrine, whereby the said religion is corrupted in the Church of Rome, ig∣norantly supposing them to bee the truth of God. In the diuided sense it fignifies one that holds the errours of the Church of Rome, without respect to the orthodoxe truth maintained therein. Now to apply this to our pur∣pose; when wee say a papist may bee saued, wee vnderstand it in the former & more large sense. And when the saith; a papist cannot be faued, he vnderstands it in the latter, and more strict sense, and so we are all agreed: for as a theefe,

or a murderer, or any other malefactor cannot be saued, as he is such a one; no more can a Papist as hee holdeth his er∣rours: for no vncleane thing shall enter into the kingdome of heauen: this is the former point of his sophistrie.

The other is in the word renoun∣cing: For there are two kindes of re∣nouncing: One actuall and expresse; another virtuall, and infolded. The actuall is when a man doth both in word and practice separate himselfe from the religion of the Church of Rome. The virtuall is, when in prepa∣ration of minde, a man is ready to doc it, so soone as it shall appeare to him to be sinfull and damnable: when there∣fore he requireth that a Papist that must be saued should renounce his popery; if he vnderstand the actuall renouncing thereof, we acknowledge that it is ne∣cessary so soone as hee shall know, and be conuicted of the euill of Popery: but if he neuer be conuicted thereof so long as he liueth; then we say the virtuall is sufficient, which is included in generall repentance: otherwise, wee must con∣found

sinnes knowne with vnknowne, and generall repentance with particu∣lar: This being considered, a man may easily perceiue how a simple ignorant Papist, whether learned or vnlearned, may bee said to renounce his poperie, and to be saued; though he liue and die in the communion of that faith and re∣ligion. So much for Sophistry.

Now his folly appeareth in this, that he would haue us to hold, that a Papist (which we say, may be iaued by a gene∣rall faith and repentance) is saued as a Papist by vertue of his Popish igno∣rance, idolatry, and other trumpery, and not as a true beleeuer by faith in Christs merits: And that wee would haue some Godamercy to be giuen to Popery, or silly ignorance for his salua∣tion; which ought to be so farre from the conceit of any well disposed Chri∣stian, that all of vs must acknowledge, that no Protestant, as a Protestant (com∣municating with the corruptions of se∣uerall Churches, Dutch, French, Ger∣mane, or the rest; none of which are free from some enormities) No Prote∣stant

(I say) as a Protestant, can bee sa∣ued, without this generall faith and re∣pentance, so as there can be no God a∣mercy giuen to our Protestancy, but onely to faith in Christs merits, by which we come to be saued, not as Pro∣testants, but as true beleeuers, renoun∣cing the corruptions of seuerall Chur∣ches: And so a Protestant liuing and dying a Protestant, may bee damned; and a Papist liuing and dying a Papist may be saued.

BVRTON.

My conclusion is (to be briefe,) No Papist, as a Papist whether learned or ignorant can be saued; My reason is, because Popery denyeth the sauing faith of Christ: and they want the meanes of faith; therefore if they bee saued, it must be extraordinarily, &c.

Answere.

All this which followeth in this Sec∣tion, is nothing but an idle repetition of those things which haue beene former∣ly vrged, and answered at large: and therefore with reference thereto, I pass

it ouer: The same also I say to the next, wherein he takes it for granted, that he speakes the truth; and that his aduersa∣ries do diuorce themselues from sound iudgement, and right reason; and haue no right charity but such as calleth euill good: Because they say, It is an hard sentence, yea malicious, and rash, to say, That in the Church of Rome there is no saluation: All which I leaue to the discretion of the Reader. So much for the two questions, and the two former Authors.

BVRTON.

But others would not have it deny∣ed, that the Church of Rome is a true visible Church, though not a true be∣leeuing Church.

Answer.

Hauing rid his hands of his two for∣mer Authors with a kinde of neglect (as I said afore) hee comes now to his meeke, and sweet spirited Author, a Re∣uerend Antistes of the Church of Eng∣land, our diuine Seneca, &c. against whom he bends all his forces; and yet like Iudas (as you see) betrayeth him

with kissing: May not I say to him, as Horace to Lydia in another case?

—Lydia dic per omnes Te deos oro, Sybarim cur properas amande Perdere?—So

Burton, for Gods sake tell me, I thee pray, Why thou so louingly dost Exon flay?

I acknowledge my poetry may bee blamed, but the conceit may bee prety and tolerable, (though I say it my selfe) for to say the truth, he laboureth to kill him with kindnesse; in that (as much as in him lyeth) hee blemisheth his well deserued, Reuerend, and Honorable name in the Church with his flattering opposition: But he must be pardoned, for he hath done it to the glory of God and the confusion of Babylon: which if it might proue to be true, I dare bee bold to say, his Author would not only be ready to make an humble and inge∣nuous palinody, or retractation, (as he sawcily requireth) but euen to sacrifice his goods, good name, soule and body for euer: But I doubt hee hath done

Gods glory more hurt, and Babylon more good, then any Babylonian Papist hath done these many yeares.

Author.

That which Laertius speakes of Me∣nodemus, that in disputing his very eyes would sparkle, is true of ma∣ny of ours; whose zeale trans∣ports them to such a detestation of the Romane Church, as if it were all errour, no Church; af∣fecting nothing more then an vt∣ter opposition to their doctrine, and ceremonies, because theirs.

BVRTON.

What if we should deny this, that the Church of Rome is a true visible Church? Must we at the first dash be censured as men transported with zeale out of the detestation of the Church of Rome, as if it were all error, no Church, &c?

Answer.

How are you not ashamed to abuse your Reuerend Author, doth hee cen∣sure all of them that deny the Church

of Rome to be a true visible Church in this sort, and manner? are not his ex∣presse words, that it is true of many of them, not of all? Master Burton, this dealing beseemes not one that con∣tends for the glory of God, and confu∣sion of Babylon: In my conscience, no truly religious wise man will deny, but many of them doe well deserue this censure; and you for one.

BVRTON.

Because theirs? thats not it, but be∣cause wholly Antichristian; therefore we detest the whore.

Answer.

Is not that it? M. Burton? why then said you before in the depth of your policy, that though it were true that the Church of Rome were a true Church, yet the countenancing or pres∣sing of it in these times might very well be spared? haue you so soone for∣gotten your selfe? and are the doctrine and ceremonies of that Church wholly Antichristian? when you haue proued it, say so; but till then lay your hand vpon your mouth, and suspend.

BVRTON.

And for my part, I had rather some fire-sparkling zeale, yet guided with right iudgment should euen trans∣port mee with a detestation of the Church of Rome, as a false Church; then that I wot not what charity with∣out Zeale, without sound iudgement, should so farre possesse me, as to acknow∣ledge the Church of Rome for a true Church, yea or yet for a true, or truly visible Church.

Answer.

Your zeale (though transporting you) is guided with right iudgement: your Author (though Reuerend) is possessed with a charity without zeale, without sound iudgement; of the two you preferre your owne: it seemes you dwell by bad neighbours, Mr. Burton; Else you fall within the compasse of Catoes Hoc faciunt stulti, &c.

BVRTON.

And yet, vnder correction, I see no such difference betweene these two, but that if we yeeld the church of Rome

to be a true, o•• truely visible Church; we may as well call it a true Church.

Answere.

If this will giue you content we will not striue with you: though it may be, wee might puzzle you: And for the next Section it is already answered.

Author.

Neither for the chaffe doe we leaue the floore of God, neyther for the badd fishes doe wee breake his nets.

BVRTON.

Whether that floore, and those nets, be Antichrists onely, and not Gods, shall appeare more fully anone.

Answer.

Where? can you tell? you promise it, but you neuer performe it.

Author.

All truth is Gods, wheresoeuer it is found; not ours: as the Kings coyne is currant, though it bee found in any vncleane channell.

BVRTON.

True: but when the truth of God is turned into a lye, and the Kings coyne beaten into a thinne leafe, &c. the case is altered: And so it is in the Church of Rome.

Answer.

It is vntrue, and contrary to the Apo∣logies of all the Reformed Churches, who stand vpon it, that they haue not made an innouation, or renouation, but onely a reformation, which could not be, if all Gods truth in the Church of Rome were turned into a lye, and that Gods coyne (the Scripture) were vtter∣ly defaced: your selfe haue acknowled∣ged it was not so before the Councell of Trent, and I haue proued that it is no worse now (if so ill) as it was before. And if some of those Churches, which yet abide in the vnitie of the Church of Rome, would depart from her, and embrace the truth, they would doe no otherwise, then the Reformed Church∣es haue done already.

Author.

Fundamentall truth is like the Me∣ronean

wine, which if it be mixed with twenty times so much water holds its strength.

BVRTON.

The comparison is pretty if it did hold water: but what if into the Ma∣ronaean wine twenty times so much poyson be put? Againe, take the Ma∣ronaean wine and extract the spirits out of it, what is it then but a dead vappa? such is that truth, which is now in the Church of Romes keeping, &c.

Answer.

Here his zeale transports him almost to blasphemy, for it is impossible that the fundamentall truth of Gods church should eyther be so poysoned, or the spirits thereof so extracted, as hee af∣firmeth; if it were otherwise, the gates of hell might preuaile against it: but Zanchius saith a great deale better in his Preface before his Booke De natura Dei, Non potuit Satan (saith hee) vel in ipsae Roman•• ecclesia quacunque voluit ef∣ficere, sicut in Orientals fecer at: Invite enim S〈…〉〈…〉 ecclesia illa praecipua

fidei fundamenta quanquam humanis do∣ctrinis labefactata: and this he said since the Councell of Trent: Now let euery wise man iudge, whether Zanchius or Burton be rather to bee credited: Al∣though I cannot dissemble my dissent also from Zanchy himselfe in this point: for hee yeeldeth too much in my con∣ceit, That Sathan hath effected what hee would in the Orientall Church in aboli∣shing fundamentall truth: which (vnder correction) I suppose to be vntrue; for that Church euen to this day holdeth the fundamentall truths of Christiani∣tie as well as the Church of Rome: But it may be he speaketh of defection to Mahometry; which is not the Orien∣tall Church.

Author.

The Sepulchre of Christ was ouer∣whelmed by the Pagans with earth, and rubbish, &c. yet still there was the Sepulchre of Christ: And it is a ruled case of Papini••n, that a sacred place lo∣seth not the holinesse with the de∣molished walls: No more doth

the Romane Church lose the claime of a true visible Church through her manifold and deplo∣rable corruptions.

BVRTON.

How the Church of Rome may bee proued to be a true visible Church, be∣cause once it was so, by this comparison I see not; and how a sound Christian may edifie his faith vpon a comparison from Papinians ruled case I cannot sa∣uour: All sound Diuines know, that places are not further, nor longer sa∣cred, then the vse remaineth where∣upon at first they began to be sacred.

Answer.

Here is much adoe to small purpose; he had little to doe to spend his time in confuting similitudes; which were vsed of the Reuerend Author for no other purpose then that for which they were originally ordained; which is not to proue, but to illustrate: which if hee had shewed they doe not, hee had said somewhat to the purpose; but that he

could not, for they are as apt and fit for the purpose as can be: As for edifica∣tion of any mans faith vpon these, or o∣ther comparisons, I am sure be neue•• intended: The very point wee haue it hand is no matter of faith, but of fact: I•• places remaine sacred so farre, and so long as the vse remaineth whereupon at first they beganne to be sacred, it 〈◊〉〈◊〉 all we desire; for so answerably Rome must still be a true visible Church, be∣cause the couenant betweene God and her still holdeth, which was the thing which first made her to be a true visible Church: for it followeth.

Author.

If the Church of Rome were once the Spouse of Christ, and her a∣dulteries are knowne; yet the di∣uorce is not sued out.

BVRTON.

Is not the diuorce sued out? Perhaps not in a legall formality; but what if this once spouse of Christ, not only play the open whore, but professeth her selfe

to be the maried wife of another man? Is this woman still the spouse of her for∣mer husband? though shee haue not sued out a legall diuorce? Thus stands the case with the Church of Rome. But what if Christ the first husband come and chalenge his spouse againe? seeing this second mariage was a nullity? In∣deed the Lord is very mercifull. Ier. 3. 1

Answer.

Now M^r. Burton (as if hee had seene the head of Medusa) seemes to be de∣priued of his senses; Is it not? (saith he) Perhaps not: But what if this? Is that? But what if that? Indeed then, &c. What staggering is this? It seemes this argument hath so choaked him, that he cannot speake without cough∣ing: If he could, he should haue done well to haue left the allegory, and to haue proued in plaine termes, that the Couenant betweene Christ and the Church of Rome, is vtterly abrogated, and abolished, which I suppose he•• will neuer be able to doe.

BVRTON.

But if the diuorce be sued out, then you will say she ceaseth to be a spouse to her former husband; well; and is nor that diuorce betweene the Church of Rome and Christ yet sued forth? yet certainly, and that on both parties: First on the Church of Romes part. When? (say you?) In the Councell of Trent (say we.) It is the duty and pr••∣perty of Christs spouse, to hearken to her husbands voice onely, and to honour him. Psal. 45. 11. Luke 9. 35. But the Church of Rome in the Councell of Trent hath taken out a bill of diuorce, and hath emancipated her selfe wholly to the Pope, as her husband, to heare him in all things from that time for∣wards: And this diuorce is ratified by the Bull of Pope Pius 4. super forma iuramenti professionis fidei, in the end of the Councell.

Answer.

If I were disposed to picke quarrells, I might haue excepted against many of your absurd phrases since I beganne to

deale with you, and against one here; of a wiues emancipating her self to ano∣ther husband: But I ayme at the maine point: I make no doubt then, but the church of Rome hath long agone (euen many hundred years before the Coun∣cell of Trent) broken the Couenant of her God; and still abideth in that trans∣gression; and so deserueth well enough to be diuorced from Christ for euer: But that it was euer her desire to sepa∣rate her selfe from Christ, it will neuer be proued: Nay rather it hath euer bin her cunning to make him a couer and cloake of all her whoredomes and abo∣minations, (as a subtile adultresse dea∣leth with her long suffering and patient husband) that so she may seeme to be a Matrone, though she bee indeed a no∣table Strumpet: and this is the highest point of the mystery of iniquity.

Now how you proue the contrary by the forme of oath of Obedience to the Bishop of Rome, and of the Profes∣sion of the Romane faith, (decreed Sess. 24. cap. 12. of the Councell, to be admi∣nistred, and taken, (and accordingly

performed) onely of such Clergy men as are to be preferred to Ecclesiasticall dignities or benefices with cure of soules) doe you your selfe (at your far∣ther leisure) consider: As if a Schisma∣tick should argue by the oathes of Su∣premacy, Allegiance, and Canonicall Obedience, and by the subscription which are to be performed in the same case of all that are to be made Ministers, or admitted to any preferment in the Church of England; that the Church of England also hath sued out a diuorce from Christ, and so is no true: visible Church: (which God forbid;) As the fanaticall Brownists and Anabaptists say vpon the selfe same reason.

BVRTON.

Now if any will require a proofe on Christs part, that he hath also publick∣ly giuen the Church of Rome a bill of diuorce; let him but search in Gods records: Doth not Christ Reuel. 17. openly declare the Church of Rome to be the Whore of Babylon? and is there not a plaine bill of Diuorce, Reuel. 18?

and that by a voice from heauen, say∣ing, Come out of her my people, &c? doth not Christ here separate his owne people, his owne spouse out of Babylon? And this diuorce on Christs part, came to bee of force vpon the Councell of Trent; when the Church of Romes se∣cond mariage was solemnly concluded, and Christ excluded: what need be said more; to proue this Diuorce, and that on both sides?

Answer.

What need bee said more? (quoth you?) marry much more then either you haue said yet, or euer will bee able to say, I trow: what is it (I pray) you haue said now, that you need to say no more? Is it this? That Rome, and the Romane Church is the whore of Ba∣bylon? Wee allow it: Or that Christ would haue his people to separate from her? we grant it: But that the Church of Rome was maried to a second hus∣band in the Councel of Trent, & Christ excluded; or that those words, Come out of her my people, are a bill of diuorce; or that Christ by them separateth his

Spouse from her, we vtterly deny. To the first enough hath beene said in the last answer. To the second wee say, first that (if Brightman your best master say true,) this place must not be vnder∣stood spiritually, but literally, of the lo∣call departure of Gods people out of Rome, and Gods calling them thereto at the last ouerthrow and destruction thereof, as he called Lot out of Sodom, and the Iewes out of the Easterne Ba∣bylon in the same words, & the Church out of Ierusalem when it was to be vt∣terly destroyed; so that as Mice (I vse his owne similitude) perceiuing the house will fall, doe leaue it, and runne away; so the people of God warned by the Angell will leaue Rome, and shift for themselues: which being so, this Prophesie is not yet fulfilled. Secondly, if it be taken spiritually, it is so far from prouing a diuorce, that it proueth the quite contrary: for first, so long as Ba∣bylon hath a being, this euocation will bee of vse and force, because so long God shall haue a people in Babylon; and so long there can bee no diuorce,

because God begets not children of any, but of his Spouse the Church: Secondly, these words declare not what Christ himselfe either doth or will doe, but what hee would haue his people to doe: Now a Diuorce is not a separation of the Familie from the Mother, or Mistris, but of the hus∣band from the wife; Ergo, here is no Diuorce intended. To the third, we say, that seeing the wife is the whore, and the whore is Babylon; Christ in∣tendeth not here to separate his Wife or Spouse from Babylon; because in so doing he should separate his wife from his wife, and Babylon from Babylon, which implies a contradiction.

Author.

As it is a visible Church we haue not detracted to hold communion with it; as Babylon, we can haue nothing to doe with it.

BVRTON.

This distinction comes too late, after the sentence of the diuorce is giuen on

both sides: Christ hath disclaimed her for his Spouse: bidding his Spouse to come from her: therefore whom God separateth, let no man ioyne together: yea in this case no distinction▪ will serue to ioyne vs together againe in one com∣munion: Herein we must not hearken to the voice of any man bee he neuer so Reuerend, before, or against the voice of Christ: By what distinction (I pray) can an honest and chaste Matrone salue her credit by keeping company, or ha∣uing communion with a notorious Strumpet? Would it not seem a strange distinction to say, The Deuill in his essence being good, wee detract not to hold communion with him; but as a Deuill, wee can haue nothing to doe with him?

Answer.

You abuse your selfe and the Reader too bad, and that in two things: First, in blaming the distinction: Secondly, in scandalizing your Author. The di∣stinction (you say) comes too late, and is not vseful to ioyne vs together again

in one communion. The former where∣of is false, as hath beene shewed in the former answers. The latter dependeth vpon the scandals of the Author; for the better vnderstanding whereof wee are to know, That the reformed Chur∣ches neuer made a full, and totall sepa∣ration from the Church of Rome; but onely partiall, from her corruptions; Non tam ab ea, quam ab eius erroribus discessimus, saith Iewel in his Apologie, which is the common voice of all, euen of Perkins himselfe in his Reformed Ca∣tholike, who sh••wes in euery head of doctrine how farre wee may and must hold communion with that Church: and to this and no more hath the Reue∣rend Author respect in this assertion: Now this Calumniator would make the world beleeue, that his intent is to vse a meanes by help of this distinction to ioyne vs together againe in one com∣munion in those things wherein we are already separated: which as it was far from his heart and meaning (for his whole Treatise tends to the contrary) so indeed it were a vaine thing for him

to endeuour it by this distinction. For it would be all one as if hee should say, As she is a visible Church, wee may com∣municate with her in her corruptions; But as she is Babylon we may not. Which is indeede the folly which hee illustra∣teth by his two similitudes of societie with a strumpet and the deuill. Thus you see the honesty, and wisedome of the man; and by this you may iudge of his zeale for the glory of God.

Author.

They haue not well heeded the cha∣ritable profession of zealous Lu∣ther, Nos fatemur, &c. We professe (saith hee) that vnder the Papacie, there is much Christian good, yea all, &c. I say moreouer that vnder the Papacie is true Christianitie, ••••a, the very kernell of Christia∣nity, &c.

BVRTON.

Luthers speech then was true: But euer distingue tempora; Luther wrote that before the Councell of Trent, till which the Church of Rome had not al∣tered the rule of Faith: But now wee

that liue after that Councell cannot say so: for in that Councell the nut was crackt, the kernell reiected, yea ana∣thematized, and now they haue retai∣ned no more, but the broken shell of a Church.

Answer.

It is a strange thing to see how men are enamoured of their owne conceits, Qui amant, ipsi sibi somnia singunt (saith the Poet) I warrant you if M. Burton were braied in a morter, yet would not these toyes depart from him. Huartus in his Tryall of wits, reporteth of a Noble-mans Page in Spaine, that (be∣ing distracted of his wits) imagined himselfe to be a King, in which conceit he so pleased himselfe, that when hee was cured, hee was displeased with the Physitian that restored him to his right minde: and so I doubt M. Burton will be with those that shew him the vani∣ties of these his imaginations. Well, howsoeuer it be, wee must be content, and suffer him to abound in his owne sense, till Time the Mother of Truth reueale his grosse mistakings: and in

the meane while l••t it bee sufficient an∣swer to this long discourse, that here is nothing but idle repetition of those things which haue beene already an∣swered. And h••••herto we haue answe∣red what hee hath obiected to what was said in the Booke of The old Reli∣gion concerning this argument.

Author.

Nothing can be so well said, or done, but may be ill taken.

BVRTON.

Now God forbid: But is it well said, or done, to affirme that the Church of Rome is yet a true, or a true visible Church? Now let the Reuerend Au∣thor iudge indifferently (hauing well weighed the former reasons) whether we doe ill or no in taking his saying ill, or whether wee had not reason to haue expected an ingenuous Palinodie or Augustine-like Retractation, rather then such an Apologie: which whether it be rather to be pitied, then any vn∣charitablenesse in the Reader in taking such a saying ill, let indicious charitie it selfe iudge: Nor need we stretch the

saying to imply, that the Church of Rome is a true beleeuing Church: Suf∣fice it we except against any being, yea or visibility of a true Church in the Sy∣nagogue of Rome.

Answer.

Some men are like Nettles, which if a man handle softly, they sting him; but if hardly and roughly, they are not felt. Our Reuerend Antistes hauing but glanced at the zeale of some, transpor∣ted to such a detestation of the Romane church, as if it were all error, no church; is deeply censured, as if preferment had changed his note, and taught him to speake more plausible language of the Church of Rome, then eyther hee did, or ought. Hereupon he frames an Apo∣logeticall, milde, and Christian Aduer∣tisement, to rectifie their iudgement, lest their preiudice may turne more to their sinne, then to his wrong: Whats the issue? Nothing but scorne: for sooth they expected that the Reuerend Au∣thor, (well weighing the former rea∣sons,) would haue made a pittifull Re∣tractation,

and not such an Augustine-like Apologie. Nay, they will not ac∣knowledge any the least mistaking in the matter; yea, those words (Nothing can be so well said or done, but may be ill taken, which are the ordinary preamble to reconciliation) are taken amisse: and so proue themselues to be true through their frowardnesse. What then is to be done? Haec non succedit, alia ineunda est via: The Reuerend Author must vse them like hounds; which the more a man beateth, the better they loue him: or like the wilde Irish; which are most seruiceable when they are most slauish∣ly vsed. And so they shall haue their de∣sire; a Palinodie, or Retractation; which is, That is repenteth him, that hee hath dealt so fauourably with them. For as for their reasons, (if they were not as bold and blinde as Bayard himselfe) they would be ashamed to commend them to the iudgement of iudicious Charity.

Author.

Who sees not that [visible] referres to outward profession, [true] to

some essential principles of Chri∣stianitie? neyther of them to soundnesse of beleefe?

BVRTON.

Is outward profession a sufficient marke of visibilitie for a Church? This is none of those markes which the Church of England takes notice of a Church by.

Answer.

No? Are not they the preaching of the word, administration of sacraments and Ecclesiasticall discipline? And what outward profession of Christianitie, can any visible church make without these? Outward profession therefore, com∣prehendeth them all; and so is a suffici∣ent marke of visibilitie for a Church.

BVRTON.

Againe, the Scripture calls them the Synagogue of Satan, which call themselues Iewes and are not.

Answer.

True; yet were they true Iewes in the flesh, and outwardly, Rom. 2. ••8. 29.

and so may a true visible Church of Christians be also.

BVRTON.

The Samaritanes sometimes profes∣sed themselues to bee of the Iewes reli∣gion, and professed the worship of the Lord, were they therefore a visible Church?

Answer.

The reason is not like; because they neuer were in the Couenant of Gods grace; but were aliens from the Com∣mon wealth of Israel.

BVRTON.

And for the essentiall principles of Christianity, the Iewes at this day hold the Old Testament; and if it bee said, They deny Christ expressely, the Pa∣pists doe so too implicitely; and by their owne expresse doctrines of Trent, haue no more communion with Christ then the Iewes haue: Nay Papists doe ex∣presly abiure the doctrine of Christ, as wee shewed before in the Popes owne Bull.

Answer.

The tongue that lyeth, slayeth the

soule: Such comparisons are not onely odious, but damnable. If this zeale do not transport you to sinne, I doubt not but euill-speakers, raylers, and slande∣rers may finde an easie passage into the kingdome of heauen.

Author.

Grant the Romanists to be but Chri∣stians, how corrupt soeuer; and wee cannot deny them the name of a Church.

BVRTON.

But why should we grant them that which neuer a Papist is able to demon∣strate to vs, or yet vndoubtedly to per∣swade himselfe of?

Answer.

This fond conceit is sufficiently an∣swered already.

BVRTON.

Although for the bare name of Chri∣stians and of a Church, wee will not much stand with them; so they do not hereupon, or any for them, incroach and challenge the beeing and realitie, yea or the very visibility of a true Church.

Answer.

You are very liberall of that which is none of your owne: Can you bee content to afford the precious name of a Christian and of a Church of Christ to them which in mans iudgement not partially affected, are not so? The Iews would neuer doe it; neither will the Papists doe it; neither will the Refor∣med Churches doe it; neither will any well informed Christian doe it: But you will not much stand vpon it.

Author.

We are all the same Church, by ver∣tue of our outward vocation, whosoeuer all the world ouer worship Iesus Christ the onely Sonne of God, the Sauiour of the world; and professe the same com∣mon Creed.

BVRTON.

Doth the Church of Rome worship Iesus Christ, who for Christ worship the Beast and his Image, bearing his mark?

Answer.

Doe all in the Church of Rome doe so? what they whose names are writ∣ten in the Lambs booke of life? Reu. 13. 8. or are you sure that none of the Church of Rome liuing and dying pro∣fessed members thereof are written therein?

BVRTON.

Doc they hold the same Creed, that deny the faith, without which they cannot say the first words of the Creed, I beleeue in God?

Answer.

And dare you say that all and euery one in the Church of Rome doth so?

Author.

Rome doth both hold the foundati∣on, and destroy it; she holds it di∣rectly, destroyes it by consequent.

BVRTON.

What foundation doe they hold di∣rectly with vs? wee shewed before, that they haue nothing of Christ, but the shell, the shadow, the Pope is the kernell, if any.

Answer.

You said so indeed, but you shewed it not: yet if they haue the shell, that is the outward profession of the founda∣tion directly, it is enough to make them be said to hold the foundation directly.

BVRTON.

Nay doe they h••ld more of Christ di∣rectly, then the very society of Deuils doe? yea or so much as they?

Answer.

They doe, if your selfe say true: for you say, that To hold the foundation di∣rectly, is to hold Iesus Christ so to be come in the slesh, as therein to suffer and satisfie for our saluation; becomming our Christ, our Iesus, redeeming vs from our sinnes by imputing his merits to vs, that our sins might not be imputed to vs which were imputed to him: by whose stripes wee are healed, by whose righteousnesse imputed wee are perfectly iustified in the sight of God: And all, and euery point of this, the Church of Rome directly holdeth.

BVRTON.

Nothing lesse: yea she directly, not by consequence onely; directly (I say) shee denieth and destroyeth this foun∣dation: How? and where? in the Councell of Trent, Sess. 6. Can. 10. Siquis dixerit homines per ipsam Christi iustitiam formaliter iustos esse, Anathema sit: Is not this a direct, and flat expresse denyall of the founda∣tion?

Answer.

Is this an expresse, flat, and direct de∣nial of the foundatiō? then Melancthon, Caluin, Illyricus, and all sound and good Protestants doe expresly, flatly, and di∣rectly deny the Foundation: for all of them doe, and must hold this doctrine for accursed: and all the Ministers of the Church of England haue cause to be ashamed of your ignorance & bold∣nesse (M^r. Burton) who dare challenge the Church of Rome to denie the foun∣dation directly in that wherein she hol∣deth and confirmeth the truth of the Gospel: you must know therefore that in these words is condemned the dam∣nable

doctrine of Andrew Osiander, and his followers; who taught and held, that a man is formally iustified by the very Righteousnesse by which Christ himselfe is essentially iust and righte∣ous, being partakers thereof by inhabi∣tation: This allegation therefore is a notable abuse not only of the Councel, but of your selfe and the Reader. See Bellarmine de Iustif. lib. 2. cap. 2. Sect. 2. His verbis: though himselfe offend therein also afterwards.

BVRTON

And in the 11^th Canon; If a∣ny shall say, that men are iu∣stified by the sole imputati∣on of Christs righteousness, or by sole remission of sins, (otherwise then by, * 1.1 inherent righteousnesse by vs obtain∣ed thereby) or also that the grace of God whereby wee are iustified, is onely the fa∣uour of God, let him bee ac∣cursed: What more direct de∣niall of the foundation?

Answer.

I might here challenge you for alte∣ring, and changing the words of the Councell; but I will not take all aduan∣tages: I answer therefore, that it seems you know not the true meaning of the Councell; for taking the word Iustifi∣cation in the Councels owne sense, this Canon containes very sound and Chri∣stian doctrine. What then doth it mean by Iustification? A compound of Pro∣testant Iustification, and Sanctification: for so it defines Iustification, cap. 7. of this Session in the first words: Iustifica∣tia est, non sola peccatorum remissio, sed & sanctificatio, & renouatio interioris ho∣minis per voluntariam susceptionem gra∣tiae & donorum: and so the true sense and meaning of the Canon is this: If a∣ny man shall say, that men are so iustified by the sole imputation of Christs righte∣ousnesse, or by sole remission of sinnes, that they are also sanctified thereby without in∣herent grace and charity; or also that the grace whereby wee are so iustified is onely the fauour of God, Let him bee accursed: and let him be so indeed for me. You

will say this is nothing but meere iug∣ling: I grant it; but it is not direct de∣nyall of the foundation: for here (as Chemnitius acknowledgeth) is both re∣mission of sinnes, and imputation of Christs righteousnesse included; which though it be sufficient to iustification in the Protestant sense, yet in the popish sense (wherein sanctification is also re∣quired) it is not sufficient.

BVRTON.

Is not this the foundation, That Ie∣sus Christ came into the world to saue sinners? and how? who his owne selfe bare our sinnes in his owne bodie on the tree; that we being dead to sins, should liue vnto righteousnesse; by whose stripes we are healed: Nay (saith the Councell of Trent directly) wee are iustified by our inherent righteousness, and so our stripes are healed, and not by the righteousnesse of Christ simply imputed: Thefore come out of her my people.

Answer.

How the Councell is to bee vnder∣stood,

I haue shewed already: and be∣ing so vnderstood, there is no direct de∣nyall of the foundation: Therefore al∣though Gods people must come out of Babylon; yet not vpon this ground: And so I conclude as I beganne, Apply Iohn Barber, and thou shalt haue a new payre of sizors. For marke the argument: The foundation is, Iesus Christ came to saue sinners, &c. But the Councel of Trent saith, We are so iustified that wee are also sanctified by inherent righteousnesse: Er∣go, Come out of her my people.

Author.

Thus I wrote well neare twenty yeares agone without clamour, without censure: If any of you be otherwise minded; I dare boldly say, hee shall doe more wrong to his cause, then to his aduersary. I differ not from the iudgement of our best, Orthodoxe, and appro∣uedly Classicall Diuines.

BVRTON.

Let not antiquity in the holding of an opinion, prescribe against truth Opi∣nions

Ancient. O that S. Ambrose his words alledged by our Reuerend Au∣thor might here take place; Nullus pud or est ad meliora transire: then I hope he will be otherwise minded then to say, He that denyeth the Church of Rome to be a true Church, or a true vi∣sible Church, shall doe more wrong to his cause then to his aduersarie; Then he will no longer stand vpon the iudge∣ment of particular persons in a point wherein our Reuerend Mother Church of England hath in her publique doc∣trine resolued the contrary: So shall our diuine Seneca partake also of great Saint Augustines praise, while by an humble and ingenuous Retractation, he shall both purge away the staine, and put a more glorious lustre to his most sweet, pious, and for their kinde vnpa∣ralleld workes; And for me a poore vn∣worthy Minister, I hope his meeke and sweet spirit (hauing well weighed my reasons, and pitied my weaknesses) will be pleased to excuse me of any transpor∣tation of zeale, vnlesse herein I haue exceeded the bounds, in presuming so

farre vpon the patience of such a Reue∣rend Antistes of our Church: But I trust he will not impute this to any ar∣rogancy of spirit, when it shall appeare, it is to vindicate Christs truth and glo∣rie, against the Synagogue of the proud Antichrist.

Answer.

It is well obserued, that this fellow hath a notable dexterity in dedicating Epistles before his Bookes, and in Pre∣faces, Digressions, Epilogues, and the like; but that in his Tracts, Discourses, and Disputations, he is as hungry and dry as Famine it selfe: This as it is true in all his writings, so especially in this; as I hope I haue in good measure made it appeare by the premisses. And for this his conclusion; All the glozing thereof ••ends to obtaine two requests: One that the Reuerend Author would be brought to humble himselfe to him in an ingenuous Retractation; And the other, that he would hold him excused for his presumption: Both are vnreaso∣nable: vnlesse hee will take that for a Retractation which before hath beene

tendred; and for an excuse, that he sup∣poseth it ignorant arrogance, rather then zeale that hath transported him: He would strike an impression into the innocent soule of the Reuerend Au∣thor, that he hath contracted some stain by this assertion, That the Church of Rome is a true, or truly visible Church: And indeed it is too well knowne that such companions as he is haue for a long time taken vpon them to bee the Cen∣sors of all mens doings, and to cry vp and downe euery mans credit and repu∣tation at their pleasure: But (God bee praised) he is 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, out of their gun∣shot: for it is well knowne to God and man, that all his courses from the cradle haue beene such, that Fame her selfe may lay her hand vpon her mouth, so as he need not endeauor to purge away any staine, which they shall impute vn∣to him. The close of his Aduertise∣ment, will so possesse the soules of all good and honest men, that the strife of tongues shall neuer bee able to molest him.

Thus (saith he) in a desire to stand but so right as I am, in all honest iudg∣ments, I haue made this speedy and true Apology; beseeching all Readers in the feare of God (before whose barre we shall once giue an account of all our ouerlashings) to iudge wisely, and vp∣rightly of what I haue written: In a word, to do me but iustice in their opi∣nions; and when I beg it, fauour.

FINIS.

Notes

• * 1.1

  See the 7. Chap. of the same Sess.