The true difference betweene Christian subiection and unchristian rebellion wherein the princes lawfull power to commaund for trueth, and indepriuable right to beare the sword are defended against the Popes censures and the Iesuits sophismes vttered in their apologie and defence of English Catholikes: with a demonstration that the thinges refourmed in the Church of England by the lawes of this realme are truely Catholike, notwithstanding the vaine shew made to the contrary in their late Rhemish Testament: by Thomas Bilson warden of Winchester. Perused and allowed publike authoritie.

THE THIRD PART REFELLETH THE IESVITES REASONS AND authorities for the Popes depriuing of Princes and the bearing of armes by subiectes against their Soueraignes vpon his censures: declareth the tyrannies & iniuries of Antichrist seeking to exalt himselfe aboue kings and Princes; and conuinceth that no deposition was offered by the Pope for a thowsande yeares after Christ, and none agnised by any Christian Prince vntill this present daie. (Book 3)

Phi.

THE Pope may reproue Princes, excommunicate them, and if neede bee depose them, which other Bishoppes can not doe.

Theo.

Seuer these thinges which you ioyne to∣gither, and the truth will the sooner appeare. Reproue them he may, when they violate the precepts of God, and so may any other Bishop or teacher. For God hath placed them in his church to teach,* 1.1 reproue, instruct & reforme as wel Princes as others, & charged them not to conceale one word of that he hath spoken neither for fauour nor terrour of any Prince. The will of God must be declared to all, and sinne reproued in all without dissembling, or flattering with any sort, or State of men: and that is most expedient for all, euen for Princes themselues, rather to heare with humilitie what God hath decreed for their saluation, than to run to their owne destruction without recalling, or warning.

So Samuel reproued king Saul, Ahias king Ieroboam, Elias king Achab, Elizeus king Iehoram,* 1.2 Iohn Baptist king Herod. Neither were wicked Princes onely, but also the good and vertuous kinges of Iudah reproued by the Prophets, as namely king Dauid by Nathan, king Iehosaphat by Iehu, and E∣zechias by the Prophet Esaie; but this reproofe reached no farther than to put them in minde of Gods graces and mercies towardes them, and their dueties againe towardes him. They neuer offered violence to their Persons, nor pre∣iudice to their States; onely they did Gods message vnto them, without hal∣ting or doubling: and so should euery Preacher, and Bishop not feare with meekenesse and reuerence to laye before Princes the sacred and righteous will of God, without respect whether Princes tooke it in good or euill part: But farther or other attemptes against Princes, than in wordes to declare the will and precepts of God, God hath not permitted vnto Preachers, Prophets, Prelats, nor Popes.

Phi.

Yes they may repell them from the Sacramentes,* 1.3 which is more than reprouing them in words.

Theo.

If you meane, they may not minister the Sa∣cramentes vnto Princes, without faith and repentance, which God requireth of men that shall be baptized or haue accesse to his table, we graunt they must rather hazard their liues, than baptize Princes which beleeue not, or distri∣bute the Lordes mysteries to them that repent not, but giue wilful and open

signification of impietie, to the dishonoring of his name, that is authour of those thinges; and the prophaning of the thinges them-selues which bee holie and vndefiled.* 1.4 For if Princes will bee partakers of Gods aboun∣daunt blessinges proposed in Christ his Sonne to all that beleeue and con∣uert, they must not looke to commaund God and his Sacramentes, but with lowlines of hart, assuraunce of fayth, and amendment of life, submit them∣selues vnder the mighty hand of God, to receiue his graces in such sort as hee hath prescribed; otherwise they prouoke God to their vtter and eternall o∣uerthrowe, and the minister that ioyned with them in their sinnes, shall not bee seuered from them in their plagues, God hating and punishing the pride and presumption of Princes against him-selfe, as much as the vices of meaner men,* 1.5 or rather more. No small vengeance, sayth Chrysostom, han∣geth ouer your heades (which be ministers) if you suffer any heynous offen∣dour to be partaker of this table: His blood shall be required at your hands. Whether he be Captaine, Lieutenant, or crowned king, if hee come vn∣worthily, forbid him; (in this case) thy power is greater than his.

Phi.

* 1.6If they may be excommunicated, ergo they may be deposed.

Theo.

How doth that follow?

Phi.

Well enough. When a Prince is excommunicated, hee looseth all right to rule, and his subiectes are streight-wayes free from yeel∣ding any obedience to him.

Theo.

Who tould you so?

Phi.

No catholike Di∣uine of any age euer saide the contrarie.

Theo.

Name any catholike Diuine for a thowsand yeares after Christ that euer saide so. In deede some popish pre∣lats and writers of late yeares finding that a compendious waie to strengthen the Popes kingdom, & to make a speedy dispatch of such as should molest them, haue not by diuinitie, but by conspiracie concluded, that Princes may be depo∣sed, & resisted euen by their owne subiects, contrary to the law of God, the do∣ctrine of the Apostles, and the perpetuall patience of Christs church.

Phi.

* 1.7I wil set you downe some catholike writers about this matter, albeit but fewe for breuity sake, yet of such excellent credit, as shalbe able to instruct and satisfie any rea∣sonable conscience in this case: as also to be our brethrens defence against all those that charge them so deadly with these treasonable propositions.

Theo.

The simplest christian that is, except you take a rebellious hart for a reasonable conscience, wil looke for some better authority to saue himselfe from damnatiō, which God threatneth to all that resist powers, than your own school∣men & companions, linked in the same faction with you, & liuing not long be∣fore you: And this seely defence of your brethren by the corrupt verdict of your confederates, is rather a discredit to your whole cause, than a clearing of them from traiterous deuises, or as you speake, from treasonable propositions.

Phi.

* 1.8Thomas Aquin; that glorious Saint & Clerke whose only sentence weigheth more, thā al the Protestāts wits & words in the world; saith thus, Postquā Princeps est denūciatus apostata, omnes inferiores & subditi absoluūtur a praestito turamēto & obe¦dientia illi debita: that is to say, after a Prince is once denounced to bee an Apostata, all his inferiours & subiects are assoiled of their oth made vnto him, and of their obedi∣ence

vnto him. This case is plainely resolued vpon by the greatest of all the schoole Do∣ctors, and therefore can be no reasonable assertion, or opinion.

Theo.

We are now neither to sift your saints, nor examine your clerks; much lesse to debate whether the resolution of a popish Monk drown the wits & pains of them al, that God hath since called to the knowledge of his truth: your passing pride.* 1.9 I leaue to the iudgmēt of the wise. The credit of Thomas is not so excellēt as you make it, nor his saintship so glorious. He wrot more thā 1200. yeres after Christ, & was both ouerwhelmed with the corruption of his time, & wholy wed∣ded to the See of Rome. Scripture or father he bringeth none, but barely stan∣deth on the example of Gregory the 7. who first practised this wicked presump∣tion against Henry the 4. a 1000. yeares after Christ: this is a simple securitie for subiects to resist the sword which God hath autorized, & the church of Christ for a 1000. yeares obeyed, to heare Thomas Aquin a late Summist in y^• midst of blindnes & error affirme they may; & pretēd no better author than Hildebrād, a furious & seditious monster, as his owne Cardinales & companions report of him. You were best bring some other proofe, they must else be very large consci∣ences that will be satisfied with such censures.

Phi.

The famous professor of our time,* 1.10 Francis Toledo writeth farther vpō the words of S. Thomas. Nota (saith he) quod eadem est ratio de excommunicato; quia cū primū quis est denunciat us excōmunicatus, omnes subdits absoluuntur ab eius obedi∣entia. Note that albeit S. Thomas name only an apostata, yet the reason is al one in the Princes case that is excommunicated. For as soone as one is denounced or declared an excōmunicate, al his subiects be discharged of their obediēce. For though the crime of a Prince be notorious, yet before declaration thereof made by the church, the vassals are not assoiled frō obedience as Caietanus wel holdeth: which declaration being made by the church, they are not only discharged of their loialtie, but are bound not to obey him any more;* 1.11 except it be for feare of their liues, or losse of their temporal goods, as it was in England in the time of Henry the 8. Thus doth this notable schoolemā write; nei∣ther do we know any Catholike diuine of any age to say the contrarie.

Theo.

Cal you these satisfactiōs for reasonable cōsciences,* 1.12 in purgatiō of your selues, that you do not cōspire with Popes against Princes, to bring men aliue at this day, that be either hired, or bewitched, as you are, to take part with Anti∣christ against God, & his truth; & think you their surly conclusions to be sufficiēt instructions for all mens consciences? Shall Ambrose, Austen, & others looke on, & Caietane, Toledo, & such like sworne chaplaines to the Pope, & our proses∣sed enemies to bee iudges in this cause?* 1.13 What else is this but aske my fellow whether I be a thiefe? And yet Thomas Aquinas had this moderation, that Princes should not loose their Dominion for heresie, or any other crime, but on∣ly for Apostasie, which is a generall & final renouncing of Christs name, to be∣come an heathē, or a Turk. Toledo w^t lesse learning & more vnshamefastnes tel∣leth vs vpon his credit Eadem est ratio de excommunicato, The same reason hol∣deth in any Prince whom the Pope list to excommunicate for what cause soe∣uer. Be not these dowtie demonstrations in so weighty questions?

Phi.

* 1.14We bring them not as our chiefe groundes in this cause; but onely to shewe that others haue beene of the same iudgement with vs.

Theo.

You meane that your fellowes of late dayes haue beene as dutifull to their Prin∣ces, as you are now to ours. We aske not what companie, but what autho∣ritie you haue to resist, and depose the powers which God hath appointed to bee serued and honoured. Let Aquinas, Caietane, and Toledo go. You may not displace them whom God hath exalted, annointed, and set to be obeyed, without higher, and better warrant than fiue thowsand Thomases, tenne Thowsande Caietanes, and twentie thowsande Toledoes can giue you.

Phi.

Thowsandes we could bring you, if that would content you; namely The famous generall Councell of Laterane celebrated aboue 300. yeares since, where∣in there were Patriarkes and Archbishops 70. Bishops 412. and other Prelates 800. in all,* 1.15 of the most chosen learned men of all Nations 1282. with the Embassa∣dours of the Romane Emperour, of the king of Ierusalem, of England, of Fraunce, of Spaine and of Cypres, as also of other Christian States; than which there can bee no surer iudgement vpon earth: which assemblie representing the whole christian world, would neuer agree vpon any assertion traiterous. These thē are the words of their most renoumed Decree.

If any Lord temporall, required and admonished by the church, neglect to purge his State from hereticall filth, let him bee excommunicated by the Metropolitane, and Conprouinciall Bishops: But if he contemne to come to order within one yeares space, let relation be made to the supreme Bishop: that from thence foorth he may declare all his subiectes to be discharged of their fealtie towardes him, and giue vp his Land to be possessed by Catholiks,* 1.16 which catholiks without all contradiction (when they haue driuen out the heretiks) shall haue and hold the same, and so preserue it in puritie of faith: (the interest and right of the chiefe Lord euer remaining safe & whole, so that himselfe giue no impediment to the execution of this Decree) And the same law to take place in such also, as be Soueraigne Lords and haue no superiours.

Theo.

Our question is not what numbers the Pope hath gathered, nor what Decrees hee hath made to settle and assure his kingdom; the iudgementes of God are righteous and meruelous, as well against Princes as priuate men. But we demaund what commission the Pope and his Prelates (whom God appointed to be subiect to Princes) had to determine thus against Princes, & to take both their crownes and Realmes from them, when they listed to excom∣municate them?

The number of Persons was aboue twelue hundred, as you crake, Bishops and other Prelates,* 1.17 but will it please you to remember that eight hundred of them were no Bishops, but Priors conuentuall & their substitutes euen drea∣ming Monkes, and begging Friers, that then began to pester the world, and had no right to sit in Councels. By such creatures of his owne making, and at his sole disposing, it was easie for your Father to ouerrule all the Bishops of the worlde, if they would haue saide nay; such cunning deuises the Bishop of Rome hath to call and frame councels to his purpose.

And what if no such thing were there decreed,* 1.18 but onely proposed and consulted on, and your skill nowe serueth you to alleage it as a most renow∣med decree, and your adherentes deceiue the people with these thinges, as fully concluded in that Councell? Looke to the verie same place whence you tooke the number of them that were present, and the very next wordes; and see whether it be not so. Venere, saith Platina, multa tum quidem in consultatio∣nem, nec decerni tamen quicquam apertè potuit: Many thinges were debated (in that councell) but nothing coulde plainely bee decided, by reason the Pope suddainly departing to compose some tumults then suddainly risen, died by the way. And so your famous generall councell of Laterane is come to a swarme of hungrie Friers, consulting how to defeate Princes of their temporall Do∣minions and lay them open to the spoile, but not concluding as being preuen∣ted by the Popes hastned and inopined death.

Phi.

We can declare and plainely deduce all that hath beene saide in the premises from holy Scriptures,* 1.19 & warrant of antiquitie.

The.

So had you need. For if no No man may sunder that which God hath ioyned togither, much lesse may you displace that which God hath ordained, or so much as resist the sword which he hath commaunded to be honoured and obeyed. To discharge your selues from the ordinance of God, from the preceptes of Christ, and doctrine of his holie spirit, you must not bring vs Popes, Schoolemen and Fiers, the eldest of thē a 1000. yeares after Christ; children will not be deceiued with such ••ables, you must proue your selues assoiled frō obedience to Princes (when the Pope list to giue you leaue,) by the selfe same heauenly records, by which we proue Popes and all others to be subiect to them. The worde of God bindeth you to obey them: the wordes of men can not loose you. Goe therefore directly and sound∣ly to worke, or else you do but increase your sinne.

Phi.

I will, and you shall see it apparantly proued by the olde and new Te∣stament, and by the examples of the primatiue church that Princes for heresie, and such like crimes may be lawfully deposed by Priests.

Theo.

This is it which we require you to proue: but first you confesse that Princes haue their power from God, and that they may chalenge honour, sub∣iection, and tribute of all that be within their Realmes, not onely by the con∣sent of men, but by Gods institution and ordinance.

Phi.

They be but humane creatures.

Theo.

How shoulde men be more then humane creatures; but their power is of God. S. Paul speaking of them saith: There is no power but of God, and the powers that be are ordained of God. So before him saide the wisedom of God: By me kinges raigne. * 1.20Rule therefore is giuen (them) of the Lord and power by the most high. * 1.21They be Gods ministers, for the wealth of him that doeth well, and to take vengeance on him that doeth euil.

As their power is from God, so the commaundem••nt of God is verie plaine that we should honour them. Feare God, honour the king, saith S. Peter: and Solomon expressing the same with a more effectual worde:* 1.22 Feare, saith hee,

the Lord and the king.* 1.23 Yea such is the honour that God hath allowed them, that we may neither open our lips, bende our heats, nor lift vp our handes a∣gainst them: Thou shalt not speake euil of the Ruler of thy people, & * 1.24curse not the king, no not in thy thought; much lesse then may we resist them. Let euerie soule be subiect saith the Apostle to the higher powers. Whosoeuer resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God; and they that resist, shal receiue to themselues iudgement. You must be subiect not onely because of wrath, but also for conscience sake. And so S. Peter, Submit your selues vnto euery humane creature (or ordinance) vnto the king as surpassing the rest. For so is the will of God. And threatning an heauie iudgement, hee sayth chiefly to them that despise gouermēt, and feare not to speake euil of such as are in authoritie. S. Iude noteth wicked and fleshly teachers for the same fault with the very same wordes. They despise gouernment, and speake e∣uill of them that are in authority.

Of this subiection due vnto Princes, the tribute which we paie them, is by S. Pauls iudgement the very signe and earnest.* 1.25 You must be subiect. For, for this cause pay ye also tribute.* 1.26 And therefore the Lord himselfe, when he char∣ged all men to giue vnto Caesar that which was Cesars, ment that honour, sub∣iection, and tribute which by Gods law is due vnto Caesar. For that is Caesars, which God by his word hath allotted vnto Caesar, & that no mortall man may withhold from Caesar, since the Sonne of God hath allowed it vnto Caesar.

Phi.

All this we knowe.

Theo.

All this if you keepe as well as know, you shall offend the lesse.* 1.27

Phi.

Honour, subiection, and tribute must be giuen to Caesar, so long as Caesar is Caesar; but if Caesar bee no longer Caesar, then these thinges are not due to him.

Theo.

What meane you by this, so long as Caesar is Caesar?

Phi.

That is, vntil he be lawfully depriued of his Empire.

Theo.

Then Caesar shall haue these thinges so long as you list to suffer him to be Caesar; but if you once denounce him excommunicate, then Caesar, who by Gods law should haue honour, subiection and tribute, by your law shal haue nei∣ther land, libertie nor life. Is not this worse than despising, or resisting go∣uernment, to depriue and bereaue the gouernour of imperie, safety, and life, if you list?

Phi.

Wee take no such thing on vs; but Christ hath giuen that power and authoritie to his Uicar generall that he may doe it, if Princes deserue it.

Theo.

Christ neuer gaue any man power to breake the preceptes which he bounde his Disciples vnto,* 1.28 but rather he plainly professed; If yee continue in my word ye are verily my Disciples. If Christ commaunde subiection to Magistrates, and your holy father licence the people to rebel against their Gouernours, is hee a Uicar or an aduersarie vnto Christ?

Phi.

Hee first deposeth the Prince, and then the subiectes are no longer bound to those that be no Gouernours.* 1.29

Theo.

That is, hee displaceth them whom God hath annoynted, and wresteth the sworde out of their handes to whom God committed it, and then hee saith you may resist them by reason hee first deposed them: but how proue you that

he may depose Princes, or what warrant can you shew for his so doing?

Phi.

That is the point which I am comming to.

Theo.

And that is the thing which we haue all this while looked for.

Phi.

Saul the first temporall king that euer the Iewes (being then Gods peculiar) had;* 1.30 though chosen and inspired by God, was for all that led, and directed by Samu∣el so long as he was in order. But afterward for aspiring to spirituall function, and o∣ther disobedience; was by Gods appointment and sentence (pronounced by the said Sa∣muel) deposed of his kingdom, and an other named Dauid annointed by him. Which Saul now after his depriuation, or after, as it were, his excommunication by Samuel, was inuaded by an euill spirit, that prouoked him to kill not onely Dauid, that was now made the rightfull owner of his crowne: but also to seeke for Samuels death: yea and to commaund all the holy Priestes of Nobe (fourescore and fiue in number,* 1.31 as holie Scripture recounteth) to be slaine and murdered in most pitifull wise, as traitours to him, and fauorers of Dauid the competitor of his kingdom. And so it was done at last; though at the beginning his garde refused to execute so vile and horrible an act; and in this sort he remained enemie many yeares against God and Samuell, and kept the kingdom by tyrannicall force notwithstanding his deposition.

Theo.

What needeth this long repetition of matters impertinent? A short conclusion and more direct to the question,* 1.32 were farre better.

Phi.

That you shall haue. Samuel deposed Saul, ergo the Priest may depose the Prince.

Theo.

The Prophetes were chosen by God to denounce to the wicked both his temporall and eternall iudgementes: will you thence conclude the Pro∣phets were the workers or authours of Gods iudgements? Noah denounced the floud; did Noah therefore drowne the worlde? Ieremie denounced the bondage of Babylon; did Ieremie therefore deliuer the whole kingdome into captiuitie? Daniel denounced Nabucadnezers fall: did Daniel therfore take Nabuchadnezers hart and vnderstanding from him, or make him ••ate grasse like an oxe?

Phi.

They were the denouncers of these things from Gods mouth, but not the doers.

Theo.

Keepe that rule, and you haue answered your owne examples of Samuel, of the man of Iudah that threatned Ieroboam, of Elias, Elizeus, Peter and Paul; in which the strength of your discourse consisteth.

Samuel annointed Dauid, whiles Saul liued, Elias called for fire from hea∣uen to consume the kinges messengers;* 1.33 Elizeus annointed Iehu to execute the wrath of God on Achabs house: Peter strake Ananias and his wife dead with a word for lying vnto God: & Paul by the same power of the holy Ghost strake Elimas the Sorcerer blind. Doth this proue that Bishops and Preachers may pick out mens eyes, or kil whom they can, or appoint kingdomes at their plea∣sures?

Phi.

No, but that these things are not vnlawful for Prophetes & prea∣chers when God commaundeth.

Theo.

If God commaund the case is cleare, not onely for Popes, but also for the poorest Priest & meanest creature that is.

Phi.

We aske no more.

Theo.

And so much wee grant; but hath your holy father any reuelation from heauen to depose the Queene of England?

Phi.

A commission he hath though no reuelation to depose Princes▪

Theo.

* 1.34The Popes commission to depose Princes, is the thing which we striue for, & which you seeke to deduce by the Scriptures; and now we come to the purpose, you vainely suppose that without proofe, which wee required to see, and you promised to shew by the very word of God himselfe.

Phi.

Wee proue by the Scriptures that Prophetes haue deposed Princes.

Theo.

Belie not the Scri∣ptures. You shew where God reiected kinges for their wickednesse, and sent his Prophetes to tell them so much, and annoint others in their places. But in this case the Prophetes were messengers, not iudges; denouncers, not depo∣sers: & that which they did, they did not in the right of their Propheticall vo∣cation, but by peculiar and special direction from God, which was priuate to them, not common to others that were Prophetes, as well as they. Nowe what consequent is this? Samuel annointed Dauid; Elias, Hazaell; Eliseus Iehu; when God expreslie willed them; ergo Prophetes may dispose kingdoms at their pleasures: and Popes may depose Princes, though God expresly will them not.

Phi.

Yes God willeth them so to doe.

Theo.

Proue that, and weare the crowne.

Phi.

He willed others before them.

Theo.

And therefore they might lawfully doe that which God commaunded them;* 1.35 and you may not doe the like, till you haue that speciall precept from God which they had. So that in these cases which you pretend, first God was the doer and not the Prophetes: they were but seruauntes to doe their message. Next they tooke no such thing vppon them by their generall calling as Prophetes, nor in their owne names as superiours to kinges, but onely then, when they were precise∣ly charged by God himselfe, and the person that shoulde succeede likewise na∣med vnto them by Gods owne mouth. What is this to the Pope? Or how doth this inferre that he may iudicially conuent Princes and depriue them of their crownes when he thinketh good? Yea rather if you were not more than blinde, you would perceiue this illation of yours is not erronious onely but al∣so blasphemous, in that you chalēge for the pope the same right to depose kings, which God hath specially reserued to himself. It is he that deposeth the migh∣ty from their seat, and exalteth the base: it is he that putteth downe kinges, and setteth vp kinges, and giueth (the kingdome) to whomsoeuer hee will. This power I saie you can not attribute to the Pope without apparant blas∣phemie.

Phi.

* 1.36We giue him no such power, but onely to remoue such from the king∣dom as be vnworthy of it.

Theo.

And think you that God remoueth such as be worthie?

Phi.

No.

Theo.

Then do you giue the same power to the Pope, which God claimeth to him-selfe, to displace the wicked from their thrones.

Phi.

But vnder God.

Theo.

If your holy father do this without a particular and pre∣cise warrant from God, hee doth it not vnder God, but as well as God, & that which is in this case done without God, is against God.

* 1.37But on with your example of Samuel. Saul was deposed of his kingdome by Gods appointment and sentence, which Samuel pronounced vnto Saul from the

mouth of God. Ergo what?

Phi.

Ergo king Saul was deposed.

Theo.

Grant he were; by whom was it done? by God or by Samuel?

Phi.

God prescribed the sentence,* 1.38 but Samuel pronounced it.

Theo.

In whose name did Samuel speake? in Gods or his own?

Phi.

In Gods.

Theo.

Said he more than God com∣maunded him?

Phi.

I thinke not.

Theo.

Then God spake the worde, and God gaue the iudgement against Saul; only Samuel was sent to tell Saul so much, & that was sore against Samuels will, as appeareth by his mourning for Saul, which God reproued in him.

And now to turn your own exāple on your own head, I trust God hath as much right to depose Princes as the Pope.

Phi.

What then?

The.

Did all Israel & Iudah sinne in obeying Saul so many yeares after hee was deposed by God, and an other annointed in his place?

Phi.

They did it for feare, because Saul kept the kingdom by tyrannical force, notwithstanding his deposition.

Theo.

Did Dauid sinne in seruing Saul long after himselfe was annointed?

Phi.

He durst not doe otherwise.

Theo.

When Dauid had Saul alone in the caue, and might haue slain him, did he well to spare him?

Phi.

He might lawfully haue killed him, as S. Augu∣stine deduceth, but he would not.

Theo.

Of that anon: in the meane time was it a lie in Dauid to call him his master and the Lords annointed after his deposition?

Phi.

He called him so in respect he had bin so, though presently he were not so.

Theo.

Nay, Dauid affir∣med y^• at that present,* 1.39 he was so. The Lord, saith Dauid, keepe me from laying mine hand on him. For he is the Lords annointed. And after shewing that this was his dutie and not his curtesie, when he founde him asleepe & one of his Captaines would haue slain him, he said,* 1.40 Destroy him not: for who can lay his hand on the Lords annointed, & be giltles? Where Dauid maketh it no fauor to spare him, but a sin to touch him. And to the messenger that brought him news of Sauls death:* 1.41 How wast thou not afraide, saith Dauid, to put foorth thine hand to destroy the annointed of the Lord? And commaunding the fellow to bee thrust through,* 1.42 Thy blood, saith hee, bee vpon thine owne head, for thine own mouth hath witnessed against thee, saying, I haue slaine the Lords annointed.

If all Israel obeyed Saul, notwithstanding the sentence of God pronounced against him; if Dauid himselfe after his annointing serued & honored Saul as his master, & called & counted him the Lords annointed to the houre of his death; abhorring it as a sinne in himselfe to lay hands on him, & seuerely punishing it in an other that did it: How can you warrant rebellion against Princes, or make it a meritorious act to murder them, whom the Pope without all authoritie frō God presumeth to displace?

Phi.

Dauid might lawfully haue killed Saul,* 1.43 as S. Austen sheweth against A∣damātius, but he would not.* 1.44

The.

The words of Dauid are plain to the cōtrary, speaking of Saul & himselfe, Who can lay his hand, saith he, on the Lordes an∣nointed, & be guiltles? He could not be guilty, but of a sinne: it had bin therfore no lawful, but a sinful deed for any man, Dauid himselfe not excepted, to haue

killed Saul, in respect he then was, & so continued till he died, The Lordes an∣nointed.

Phi.

S. Augustine saith, Dauid might haue killed Saul without feare. His words be,* 1.45 Dauid had his enemie & persecutour king Saul in his power to do with him what hee woulde, and hee chose rather to spare him, than to kill him. Hee was not commaunded to kill him, neither was hee prohibited; Imo etiam diuinitus audierat se impunè facere quicquid vellet i∣nimico, Yea rather hee had hearde at Gods mouth that hee might freelie handle an enemie how he would, and yet so great authoritie hee con∣uerted to curtesie.

Theo.

Adimantus helde opinion that the olde Te∣stament was contrarie to the newe, because the Lawe as hee thought per∣mitted reuenge, and allowed men to kill their enimies, where the Gos∣pell commaundeth vs to praie for our enimies, and to loue them as the wordes of our Sauiour doe witnesse. This obiection Sainct Augu∣stine refelleth, by shewing that the killing of the Nations which God commaunded, proceeded of loue, not of hatred: and that the iust of the olde Testament loued and fauoured their enimies when it was expedi∣ent for them so to do; as namely Dauid that spared king Saul his enimie and persecutour, though he might easilie haue slaine him.

Philand.

Sainct Augustines worde is, impunè, hee might freely haue doone what hee woulde to him.* 1.46

Theoph.

Whether that were Sainct Augustines perswasion, or an aduauntage taken vppon Adiman∣tus assertion, the place it selfe doeth not expresse; of the twaine I thinke the later to bee the truer. For this was Adimantus erronious position, that the Lawe licenced the Iewes to kill their enimies: and you may not well charge Sainct Augustine there-with least, you bring him againe within the compasse of the Manichees errour. Sure it is Sainct Augu∣stine doeth not grounde his speech on this that Saul was deposed, and there∣fore might haue iustly beene destroyed, which is our case; but on the per∣mission of reuenge, which the Lawe of Moses seemed to graunt Dauid towarde his enimie as well as all others towardes their enimies; marie that was no right exposition, but a misconstruction of the Lawe sufficient to refute Adimantus because it was his owne but not rashly to bee fathered on Sainct Augustine in respect of his learning and credit otherwise in the church of God. For the lawe of God gaue no man leaue to kill his eni∣mie, but that precept was to bee referred to the Magistrate to whome God gaue the sworde lawfully to kill such as were by his Lawe adiudged to die; which our Sauiour doth not prohibite in the new Testament, but reproueth the Iewes for hauing this false conceit of Gods lawe, that euery priuate person might hate his enimies and loue his neighbours, (they corruptly expounding neighbours for friendes and acquaintance) and assureth them that to loue their enimies and pray for their persecutors, which hee then prescribed them, was no new addition, but the ancient and true intention of Gods law.

These wordes then, Dauid had heard by the Lawe of God (for speciall reuelation from God to Dauid Sainct Augustine knewe none) that hee might doe freely what hee would to an enimie, are assumed against Adi∣mantus as part of his owne confession and former obiection:* 1.47 and conclude that either Adimantus mistooke the meaning of the law, as in deede hee did; or that Dauid perfourming the precept of Christ when hee spared his enimie, gaue example that others vnder the Lawe shoulde doe the like, and so the Law neither waie repugnant to the Gospell; as his conclusion imported. And if any thinke it much Sainct Augustine should pitch himselfe on other mens wordes as they were apparant truethes, hee must remember hee dealt with the Manichees that receiued no Scriptures but such as they listed: and there∣fore to presse them with their owne position, was a neerer waie to confounde them, than to loade them with Scriptures which they regarded not; and that maketh Sainct Augustine giue sometimes not the soundest solution hee coulde, but the readiest to stoppe their mouthes with their owne assertions.

Otherwise Sainct Augustine was plainely resolued that Dauid so much esteemed in Saul the holinesse of his regall inunction euen vnto his death, that hee trembled at heart for cutting the lappe of Sauls garment. Quaero si non habebat Saul sacramenti sanctitatem,* 1.48 quid in eo Dauid venerabatur? nam eum propter sacrosanctam vnctionem & honorauit viuum, & vindicauit occisum. Et quia vel panniculum ex eius veste praescidit, percusso corde trepidauit. Ecce Saul non habebat innocentiam, & tamen habebat sanctitatem, non vitae, sed vn∣ctionis. If Saul had not the holinesse of the sacrament, I demand what it was that Dauid reuerenced in him?* 1.49 For the sacred and holy vnction (of a king) hee honoured Saul liuing, and reuenged his death (on him that saide hee slue him.) And because himselfe had cut but the lap of Saules coate, hee was strooken and trembled at heart (for the fact.) Behold, Saul was not innocent, yet had hee the holinesse not of life but of his an∣nointing.

Phi.

If Dauid might not lawfully haue slaine Saul, Dauid might not beare armes against Saul: for the putting himselfe in armes proueth hee was either lawfull king, or a manifest rebel against the king, which I thinke you will not affirme.

Theo.

Dauid was neither king as yet when hee did this,* 1.50 nor rebell against the king. Hee put him-selfe in armes not to seeke the kingdome nor to subdue the vsurper as you vainly suppose: hee fledde to saue his life, as euery subiect may, by your doctrine & doinges, yea though life be not sought.

Phi.

Howe coulde Dauid bee annointed, if Saul were not first deposed?

Theoph.

You misconster Samuels wordes.* 1.51 For by them the Scepter was not taken out of Saules handes, but his seede reiected from inheri∣ting the kingdome.

Philand.

Nay Samuel sayde vnto him; * 1.52 God hath cast thee awaie from being king. And againe, The Lord hath rent the kingdome of Israel from thee this day & hath giuen it to thy neighbor.

What can this import but he was personallie deposed from the gouernment?

Theophi.

The present possession of the kingdome was not denyed him, but the inheritaunce of it to him and his issue.* 1.53 By a king Samuel ment, not one that shoulde gouerne during his life: for so did the Iudges of Is∣rael before Saul, that were no kinges; but one that should haue the king∣dome to him, and his after him by waye of inheritaunce. For that was it which the children of Israel respected when they required a King, which was not a Gouernour for the time, but a setled succession in the re∣giment, as other Nations had. This was it that Samuell saide vnto Saul when he first reproued him: Thou hast doone foolishly, thou hast not kept the commaundement of the Lord: for (haddest thou kept it) the Lord had now established thy kingdom vpon Israell* 1.54 for euer. But now thy kingdom shal not continue. This was it that Samuel ment the seconde time when he more sharpely rebuked Sauls disobedience. Because thou hast cast a∣waye the worde of the Lord,* 1.55 therefore hath he cast away thee from being king. And againe, The Lord hath rent the kingdome of Israel from thee this daie, and hath giuen it to thy neighbour, not meaning his person shoulde bee degraded, but the kingdom remoued both from his line and from his tribe.

Phi.

This is your priuate sense: for the wordes sound, that he should not bee king ouer Israell.

Theo.

* 1.56Sainct Augustine him-selfe expoundeth these verie wordes as I do. Iste cui dicitur: spernit te Dominus ne sis Rex super Israel, & dirupit Dominus Regnum ab Israel de manu tua hodie, quadragin∣ta annos regnauit super Israell, tanto scilicet spacio temporis quanto & ipse Dauid, & audiuit hoc primo tempore regni sui: vt intelligamus ideo dictum quia nullus de stirpe eius fuerat regnaturus.* 1.57 Saul, to whome it was sayde the Lorde will cast thee away, that thou shalt not bee king ouer Israell, and the Lorde hath rent the kingdome from Israell, out of thine hand this daie: euen hee raigned fourtie yeares as long as Dauid him-selfe, and this hee hearde in the verie beginning of his raigne, that wee shoulde vnderstand it therefore to be spoken, because none of his stocke should raigne after him.

And hadde not Sainct Augustine goone cleare with vs, the circum∣staunces of the Scriptures doe thus lymitte the wordes of Samuel. For Dauid was then a verie young boie, or as the text sayeth a * 1.58 little one, keeping sheepe when hee was annointed, hauing neither age, experience, nor strength fit for the present vndertaking of the kingdome. Next, Da∣uid neither claymed nor pretended any right to the Crowne during Saules life, but serued and obeyed Saul as his liege Lorde and Master whiles hee lyued, and so confessed him to bee. Thirdly, Saul him-selfe neuer obiected this vnto Dauid that he sought the kingdome from him, but from his sonnes; for so he said to Ionathan, As long as the sonne of Ishai liueth vpon the earth, thou shalt not be established nor thy kingdō. And the priests that were char∣ged

with treason for helping Dauid,* 1.59 did not answere as you do that Saul was an vsurper & Dauid the right king, but Who is so faithful among all thy seruants as Dauid, & goeth at thy commandement: witnessing for Dauid that he beha∣ued himselfe as a faithfull subiect vnto Saul, not as a claimer of the crown from Saul. Thus al the Tribes of Israel conceiued & constred the wordes of Samuel. For when they came to make Dauid king after Sauls death, they said, In time past, when Saul was our king, thou leddest Israel in & out: & the Lorde saide vnto thee: thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be captaine ouer my people Israel. So came all the elders of Israel and annoynted Dauid king ouer Israel, according to the word of the Lord by the hand of Samuel. The text it self alleadgeth Gods own words, & Samuels act not for the present posses∣sion, but for the rightfull succession of the crowne, that after Sauls death it did belong to Dauid.

Phi.

The annointing of a second king is it not the deposing of the former?

Theo.

God often times annointed him that should succeede:* 1.60 as when hee willed Elias to annoint Hazael king of Syria, Benhadad his master yet liuing, & like∣wise to annoint Elizeus the Prophet in his own roome: whereby neither Ben∣hadad was deposed from his kingdom, nor Elias depriued of his ministerie, but ••uccessours appointed to them both.

Phi.

You see in what sort also Ieroboam king of Israel,* 1.61 had a special Prophet sent to him to denounce the intended iudgementes of God against him & his Posterity, for his schisme and separation of his people, from the old ancient true worship of God in Ie∣rusalem; & for erecting a new altar in Bethel (in which al schisme and diuision from the Apostolike See is properly prefigured) & for creating of a wicked clergie out of Aarōs order: I meane, new, hungrie, base, & inordered Priests, (the patern of heretical ministers) thrust vp, out of the aray & orderly succession & creation of Apostolike priest¦hood: a crime so highly afterward both in him and his stock (according to Gods former denunciation) reuenged, that none of his house was left to pisse against a wal. Yet hee fondly sought to apprehend the man of God, & to kil him, for bringing this newes which he accounted high treason against his Regalty.

Theo.

You promised to proue that Princes might bee lawfully deposed by Priests:* 1.62 & now slipping cleane from the question, you shew that God threatned destruction to wicked princes, & charged his Prophets to go to them & tel them so much from him to their faces. Who euer doubted of this? or which way draw you this to make for your purpose? If God may iustly reuenge the sinnes of all men, euen of Princes themselues, and oftentimes doth; wil you thence inferre that Priests or Prophets may depriue Princes of their kingdoms?

Phi.

A priest denounced Ieroboam to be a wicked schismatike.

Theo.

He was a Prophet,* 1.63 & no Priest that cried out against the Altar of Bethel in Ieroboams presence, & spake not one worde of Ieroboams schisme or deposition, but onely that king Iosiah should sacrifice the Idolatrous Priests & burne their bones on that Altar: which came to passe 300. yeares after Ieroboam was dead. Such mighty reasons you bring to iustifie the deposing & displacing of Princes by the

Bishop of Rome: that when all is saide, your own glosing & interlacing besides y^e text is the best ground of your argumēt. That Ieroboams erecting a new Altar in Bethel properly prefigured our diuision frō the Apostolike See (so you call Rome) & that his new,* 1.64 hungrie, base, & inordered priests are a paterne of our ministers, these be the blasts of your spirit & cākers of your mouth, they touch not vs; but in your deceiued & exaspered fansie. We haue forsaken the strūpet that made drunk the inhabitants of the earth with the wine of her fornication, & are gone out of her lest we should be partakers in her sins & receiue of her plagues: otherwise we haue diuided ouer selues neither from God, nor his church. That the clergie of England is vpthrust, hungrie & base, is but the vnloding of your disdainful sto∣makes; in deed your boy-priests haue a brauer fashion to ruffle in their silks and colors, & think themselues no cast ware, as if the sight of Rhemes, or Rome did by & by make them Iosephs betters in dignity, & Abrahās equals in grauity: for our part wee are that wee are by the grace of God, & wee hope in his mercy, his grace in vs shal not be in vaine. But what is this to the question whether the Pope may depose princes or no; you began with a matter which you neuer came neere, & now you be clean besides. For what doth Gods threatning or punishing of Ieroboam concern the Popes deposing & degrading of princes? God repaied the wickednes which Ieroboam committed with fearful plagues on him, & his whole house after him:* 1.65 & Ahias the prophet did not spare to tel Ieroboams wife, that God would do it, & not leaue one of his line to * 1.66 wet a wal. Euery preacher may do the like; that is, they may protest & assure princes, that Godwil not leaue their sins vnpunished both with temporall & eternall plagues: & yet euery prea∣cher may not depose princes. Yea the preacher of God may do the like to y^e pope himselfe, and yet you thinke it no reason: that euery preacher should depose the Pope. Much lesse wil it follow that your holy father may thrust princes from their seates, because the Prophets of God in old time reproued princes for their Idolatries.

Ph.

* 1.67Ozias also, or Vsia king of Iuda puffed vp with intolerable pride (as the scripture saith) & not cōtented with his kingly souerainty, but presuming to execute spiritual & priestly function; was valiantly by Azarias & 80. priests with him, assailed, & thrust out of the temple by force. At what time for that he threatned the priests of God & re∣sisted them with violēce; he was stroken with a filthy leprosie: & so not only thrust out of the tēple, but by their authoritie, seuered also from al companie of men (a special figure of the priests power to excōmunicate for heresie, as wel princes as others, in the new law) & finally the regiment of his kingdom was committed to his sonne. A cleare example that priests may vse armes, & represse impietie by forcible waies, where it may serue to the preseruation of religion and honor of God.

Theo.

Vzziah presuming to burn incense on the Altar of God, which was the priests office,* 1.68 was stroken with a leprosie & liued as a leper in an house apart frō mē to the day of his death: A faire warning for princes not to wax proud against God, nor to vsurpe thinges interdicted them by the law of God: But that Aza∣rias the priest and 80. of his brethren valiantly assailed the kinges person and

thrust him out by force, or that the regiment of his kingdom passed from him, as depriued of his right, and descended to his sonne: these be your additions and i∣maginations, the text hath no such things.

Azarias,* 1.69 & his brethren withstood the king: but in wordes, rebuking him for the breach of Gods law, which they might, not manfully assailing the Magi∣strate, nor laying violent hands on him to thrust him out of the temple, as your martial termes do import. If the scripture it selfe do not content you, repeating the words, wherewith Azarias resisted the king: heare Chrysost. conclusion vpō this place. After the Priest had reproued (the attēpt) & the king would not yeeld, but offered armes, shilds, & speares, & vsed his power, then the priest (turning himselfe) to God,* 1.70 I haue done, saith he, my duty (to warn him,) I can go no farther. Nam Sacerdotis est tātum arguere; for it is the priests part only to reproue & freely to admonish (with words:) not to assaile with armes, not to vse targets, not to handle speares, not to bend bowes, not to cast dartes, but only to reproue and freely to warne.

This therefore is no cleare example that Priests may vse armes & represse im∣pietie by forcible wayes, as you infer,* 1.71 but a wicked abusing & drawing of the scrip∣tures to serue your warlike dispositions. For Gods, & mans law wil assure you that priests & bishops may be no warriers in their owne persons; & if you regard not that, your own law will teach you that * 1.72 no clergie man may put himselfe in armes, no not at the commaundement of the Bishop of Rome. Pope Iohn saith,* 1.73 Tractare de armis terrenae potescatis est: To meddle with armes, pertay∣neth to the ciuill power. Pope Innocentius saith: Christ,* 1.74 who was the paterne of al priests forbad carnal weapons to be taken in hand for him. A councel at Toledo in Spain, * 1.75 Clergie men that in any factiō whatsoeuer, wittingly take armes, shal loose their degree & be thrust in some Abbay for euer. An other at Meaux in Fraunce, * 1.76 Whatsoeuer they be that be of the clergy, let thē take no warlike weapons in hand, nor go with armes. If they doe, let them loose their degree, as contemners of the sacred canōs, & prophaners of ecclesiasti∣call dignity. The full resolution of all these canons by the confession of your law is this: Hijs ita respondetur, Sacerdotes propria manu arma arripere non debent.* 1.77 The meaning of these places is, that priests themselues in their own persons should not take weapon. You heard before how often S. Paul charged that a Bishop should be * 1.78 no fighter nor striker, and that * 1.79 the weapons of (their) war∣fare were not carnall, and by the Lordes owne voice, that he which * 1.80 stri∣keth his fellowe seruauntes shall haue his portion with hypocrites.

What a desperate conclusion then haue you wrested out of this example a∣gainst your own canons, & against the sacred Scriptures, that priestes may not onely vse armes and represse impietie by forcible waies:* 1.81 but assayle the person of their Soueraigne with open violence, which, if it were lawfull for them to vse armes as it is for others, they might not so much as touch? The precept of God is plaine. Touch not mine annointed; which reacheth to others but chiefly to Princes. You may not speake euill of them, & can it be lawful for you

to doe euill? To resist them is damnation: what is it then with armed vio∣lence to oppresse them?* 1.82 Dauid was touched in his hart for cutting off the lap of Sauls garmēt: & you boldly conclude that priests with their own hands may vi∣olate the Princes person. And where a cursing thought against them is a sinne before God, a murdering hand vpon them is a merit by your doctrine.

Phi.

We take our light from this example. For here the Priests, as the text saith,* 1.83 not only resisted, but when they saw the king become a leper they expel∣led him out of the Sāctuarie.

Theo.

The word* 1.84 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 signifieth, they cau∣sed or gat him to hasten thence, but not with violence: for the next words shew that he was forced of himself to go foorth because the Lord had strokē him. And so the word 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 doth signifie, & the common translation which you call S. Hieroms hath for it, * 1.85 Ipse accelerauit egredi: he made hast of himselfe to go forth, as terrified with the plague which he felt.

Phi.

The Priests seuered him from al companie of men (a special figure of the priests power to excommunicate for heresie as wel Princes as others in the new law) & the re∣giment of his kingdom was cōmitted to his son.

The.

You promised ful proofes out of the word of God that priests might depose Princes, & now you come with empty figures of your own applying without truth or coherence.* 1.86 Vzziah dwelt apart in an house from others, because of his leprosie: for so the law of God cōmanded, & the danger of that disease required; but that the Priests seuered him frō al com∣pany, this is your own making without the booke, the text hath no such wordes; much lesse do you find in the scriptures that he was depriued of his kingdom.* 1.87 Io∣than his son gouerned his house, & iudged the people of the Land; because the king himselfe might not be conuersant among men by reason of his sicknes, but the crowne still continued in the father though a leper, & Iothan began not his raign, til his father was dead, whom the scripture calleth the king of Iudah in the twentie fifth yeare of his raigne and last yere of his life.

Ph.

Whose dutie was it to separate Lepers from sound Persons, but only the Priests?

Theo.

The Priests were to discerne who were lepers, but the Ma∣gistrate was to see thē put apart & to keepe them from infecting others. The putting lepers asunder from others was first cōmanded to the childrē of Israel, & by them first executed; though the pronoūcing them to be lepers was alwaies reserued to the Priest.

Phi.

And the leprosie of the body resembleth y^e leprosie of the soule. Ergo Priests may separate Princes from the church for heresie & apo∣stasie, which be the sores of the inward mā, as y^e leprosie is of the outward.

The.

You must proue first, before your cōclusion wil follow, that lepers by the law of God lost their inheritance, which is not true. Next that euery Prince sinning must be deposed, which is as false. For leprosy resembleth not only heresie, or apo¦stasie, but al kind of iniquitie. Ambrose saith, Contemptus verbi est lepra mentis, the cōtempt of the word is the leprosie of the mind. And so Chrysostom: The leprosie of the soule, which is sinne, is onely to be feared. And likewise the rest: Intelligimus omnes auaros, & cupidos intus in anima peccati lepra esse perfusos. We vnderstād al couetous & greedy persōs to be inwardly infected with the

leprosie of sinne. If the leprosie of the soule be a cause sufficient to remoue prin∣ces from their Seates, what Prince shal keepe his kingdome, or what Bishop his chaire? Bee they not all sinners, as well Bishops as Princes? If you take vpon you the moderation of the matter, that all sinnes shall not depriue them of their Crownes but onely heresie: then you decide the case like a lord, as you list; and checke your owne conclusion as pernitious to Popes no lesse than to Prin∣ces; and wee may iustly reiect it as a figure of your owne framing, without pro∣babilitie in the antecedent, or necessitie in the consequent.

Phi.

Note the cause, why king Vzziah was smitten with the leprosie: for presuming to execute the spiritual and Priestly function, whereof now you make thē supreme Gouernours.

Theo.

I note it well; and when we defend that Princes may preach, baptize, forgiue sinnes, or minister the Lords supper, then threaten vs with Vzziahs pride and plague, on Gods name:* 1.88 In the meane time learne that to beare the sworde is the Princes, and not the Priests function: and that the kings of Iudah which most vsed their temporall sword for the restoaring of trueth and purging of error, wanne most fauour with God and honor with men, as I shewed before in Dauid, Iehosaphat, Ezechias and Iosias.

Phi.

To iudge of trueth, is the Priests charge; and that you referre to the Prince.

Theo.

To know what must bee taught, is the Pastours care: to take heede what they be∣leeue, or whom they follow, God hath referred that to the hearers, at their peril, and more than that we giue no Prince.

Phi.

The office and zeale of good Priests is notably recommended vnto vs,* 1.89 in the deposition of the wicked Queene Athalia. She, to obtaine the Crowne after Ochasias, killed all his children: onely one, which by a certaine good womans pietie was secretly withdrawen from the massacre, saued and brought vppe within the Temple for seuen yeres space; al which time the said Queene vsurped the kingdome: till at length Ioida the high Priest, by opportunitie called to him forces both of the Priestes and people; proclaimed the right heire that was in his custodie; annointed and crowned him king; and caused immediatly the pretensed Queene, (notwithstanding shee cried Treason, Treason, as not onely iust possessors but wicked vsurpers vse to doe) to bee slaine with her fautors at her owne Court gate. Thus doe Priests deale and iudge for the innocent and lawfull Princes (when tyme requireth) much to their honour, and agreeable to their holy calling.* 1.90

Theo.

Egernesse blindeth your vnderstanding, when to prooue that a lawfull Prince may bee depriued of State and life, which you seeke to defend, you bring an example of a wicked woman vsurping the crowne and playing the tyrant that was suppressed and punished by the rightfull in∣heritour of the Scepter, first proclaimed and Crowned by the consent of his whole Realme.

Phi.

Ioida the high Priest commaunded her to bee slaine,* 1.91 and not the king. For he was a child of seuen yeeres age and had no such discretion.

Theo.

Ioida had good warrant by the Lawes of God and man to do that hee did. First hee saued the yong king aliue, and hyding him from the furie of Athalia, secret∣ly nourced him in the house of God: and in that respect might lawfully protect

him, and execute iustice for him. Againe he was the Prince of his Tribe, as wel as others were of their Tribes: and therefore might take vpon him as much as any other of the Princes, in the minoritie of the king to pacifie the Realme, and punish the vsurper. Thirdly his wife was the kinges aunt, and himselfe the neerest allye that the king had, and for that cause by the Lawe of nature and nations, bound to see the Princes right, age and innocencie defended. Last∣ly that he did was by the common consent of al the Nobles and Captaines. For the scripture sayth,* 1.92 that before he ventered to proclaine king Ioash, He caused the captaines, & the chiefe fathers of Israel to come vnto him into the house of the Lorde, and made a couenant with them, and tooke an othe of them in the house of the Lord, and shewed them the kinges sonne. So that Ioida had very good and sufficient authoritie without and besides his Priesthoode to doe that hee did, which you dissemble and make a florish as if hee had done this only by vertue of his vocation, which is most false.

Phi.

* 1.93No man can be ignorant howe stoutly Elias (being sought to death by A∣chab and his Queene Iezabel that ouerthrewe holy Altars, and murthered all the true religions that coulde bee founde in their lande) tolde them to their face; that not hee or other men of God whome they persecuted, but they and their house were the disturbers of Israel: And slewe in his zeale all the said Iezabels false Pro∣phetes, fostered at her Table, euen foure hundred at one time; and so set vppe holy Altars againe. Howe hee handled the Idolatrous king Ochozias his Cap∣taines and messengers, wasting them and an hundred of their traine,, by fire from heauen; till the third Captaine was forced to humble himselfe vppon his knees vnto him.

Howe hee had commission to annoint Hazael, king of Syria; Eliseus a Prophet for himselfe;* 1.94 and Iehu king of Israel, and so to put downe the sonne and whole house of A∣chab: which thereby lost all the tytle and right to the kingdome for euer.

Theo.

* 1.95Elias zeale wee knowe: and his stoue answere to Achab in saying, I haue not troubled Israel, but thou and thy fathers house in that yee haue forsaken the commandements of the Lord, and thou hast followed Baalim: Yet haue you but a colde sute of his stout speach. For if Prophetes may re∣proue kings, may they therefore depose them? you bring your fiue wittes in que∣stion, if you stand to this collection.

Phi.

* 1.96He slew in his zeale at one tyme foure hundred of Iezabels false Prophets fostered at her Table.

Theo.

The famine which the land felt, and the wonder which Elias did, were the cause why king Achab deliuered the Prophetes of Baal into Elias handes to bee slaine by the people according to the Lawe of God.

Phi.

Nay Elias slewe them.

Theo.

Thinke you that Elias with his owne handes murdered so many?

Phi.

The Scripture sayth Elias slue them, interprete that howe you can.

Theo.

I tooke Elias all this while for a Prophet and not for an executioner.* 1.97

Phi.

Though it were not his act to kill them; it was his authoritie that they were killed.

Theo.

His direction you might haue sayde, but not his authoritie. For Elias was a priuate man and

no magistrate.

Phi.

King Achab was farre enough from killing them, had it not beene for Elias.

Theo.

Elias might induce the king to doe it, compell him hee coulde not.

Phi.

Howe could Elias induce the King to doe that deede?

Theo.

The famine was so great in Israel for lacke of raine that man and beast were ready to perish:* 1.98 and raine they coulde haue none, but at Elias * 1.99woord as Elias had tolde the king before the drought beganne. Meeting therefore with Achab and being chalenged by him as the author of this fa∣mine, and troubler of Israel: hee discharged himselfe, and protessed before the King that GOD plagued the whole lande because hee, * 1.100 and his fa∣thers house had forsaken the commaundements of the Lorde, & follow∣ed other Gods. And to iustifie his speach, hee offered to prooue before all Is∣rael on the daunger of his owne heade that the King and the lande were but seduced and abused by the Prophetes of Baal, and that hee would proue by no woorse meanes, than by miraculous fire from heauen which should shewe them whose sacrifice GOD accepted: assuring them of raine abun∣dant after their conuersion to the true GOD,* 1.101 for which cause hee was at this tyme sent vnto them. To this the king, and the rest gaue their con∣sents: and when by the signe which Elias wrought, the Prophetes of Baal were conuicted to bee but false deceiuers, and the whole assemblie fell on their faces,* 1.102 and gaue the glorie to GOD, and submitted themselues to followe his trueth:* 1.103 Elias willed them to take Baals Prophetes, and giue them the rewarde that deceiuers by Gods Lawe shoulde haue, which was death.

Phi.

This is your enlarging of the text.

Theo.

The bookes of kinges are but short gatherings out of the larger Chronicles that were extant a∣mong the Iewes, and the manner of the holy Ghost is briefly to touche the chiefest thinges, and yet is there none of these partes, but may bee plaine∣ly prooued by the circumstaunces of the text.

Phi.

Howe prooue you the King consented?

Theo.

The particular speach of no one is reported but the generall consent of the whole compa∣nie.* 1.104 Where also the king was present, is expressed: and yet before the multitude was assembled, the Kinges consent to Elias offer appeareth in that the king sent vnto all the children of Israel, and gathered the Pro∣phetes together for that purpose, who woulde otherwise haue despised the message and woorde of Elias. Againe the Prophetes of Baal woulde neuer haue ventered their liues vpon a needlesse miracle at Elias plea∣sure, but the King and the whole Realme tied them to that condition, vp∣pon daunger else to reiect both them and their profession. And lastly howe was it possible for one poore Prophet to catch and kill foure hundred and fiftie, so that not a man of them escaped: the king and the whole State standing with them? Or howe was it lawfull for Elias to spill their bloud in the kinges presence, without the kings consent? Elias therefore made

the motion, which the king and the whole Realme there assembled, did accept and ratifie with this answere,* 1.105 It is well spoken: and as hee should haue lost his life, if hee had failed; so when they fayled, hee required iustice to bee done by the king and the Realme on them, for that they were clearly conuicted to bee tea∣chers of strange and false Gods.

Phi.

* 1.106Achab when he came home told Iezabel his wife how Elias had slaine all the Prophets with the sword.

Theo.

Achab, wee doubt not, excused him selfe, and cast the fault as much as hee coulde on Elias, that Iezabels Prophets were slaine; but this doth not shew that Achab did not consent. His woords im∣port that Elias was the procurer & causer of their destruction,* 1.107 but not the iudge nor officer that put them to death.

Phi.

The Scripture sayth hee slew them.

Theo.

So the Scripture sayth that Solomon buylt GOD an house: thinke you therefore that Solomon was a Mason or Carpenter? And Ioshua smote the fiue kinges of the Amorites, and hanged them on fiue trees: did Ioshua therefore play the hangman? And king Roboam made shildes of brasse: was Roboam therefore a brasse-smith?

Phi.

No: they commaunded or caused these thinges to bee done.

Theo.

And so did Elias procure, or cause them to bee slaine: for in the Scripture the causer, procurer and director are sayd to doe the deede, though they bee but meanes and helpes to haue it done. But what is this to the deposing of Princes? Will you reason thus? False Prophets may bee put to death my magistrates; ergo Princes may bee deposed by priests. I thinke you will not for very shame make such childish conclusions.

Phi.

He himselfe slue king Ochasias his Captaines, and messengers, wasting them and an hundreth of their trayne by fire from heauen.

Theo.

Elias was the speaker of the woorde, but God was the doer of the deede: and in that case God himselfe slue them, and not Elias.

Phi.

* 1.108Hee called for fire from heauen.

Theo.

Fire from heauen was not in Elias power but in Gods will. Neither might E∣lias, had he not been guyded by the speciall instinct of Gods Spirit: haue presu∣med to call for that, or any other kinde of reuenge from heauen: for that is the manifest tempting of God, as our Sauiour warned his Apostles when hee re∣buked them for offering to imitate Elias,* 1.109 and to call for fire from heauen as he did. And sure it is, as these thinges were not ordinarie, so can you driue them to no conclusion for your purpose; nor lay them forth for imitation to any; no more than you may warrant men to steale, because Israel * 1.110 robbed Egypt by Gods appointment; or to perswade any to murder themselues, because * 1.111 Sam∣son did the like; or teach them to curse & kil children, because Elizeus handled * 1.112two and fourtie so that mocked him at Bethel. And yet all this while you shew not that Elias so much as touched the king, much lesse deposed him, which you professe to proue.* 1.113

Phi.

Elias had commission to annoynt Hazael king of Syria and Iehu king of Israel, and so to put downe the sonne and whole house of Achab; which thereby lost all the tytle and right to the kingdome for euer.

Theo.

Neither of them was annointed by Elias, neither Hazael, nor Iehu. Elizeus only foretold Hazael,

that he should be king in Benhadads place: His wordes were, The Lord hath shewed me that thou shalt be king of Aram;* 1.114 This Elizeus spake the day be∣fore Benhadad died; and other annointing Hazael had none.

Iehu was indeed annointed by one of the Children of the Prophets (whom Elizeus sent) and charged by message from God to smite & destroy the whole house of Achab his master;* 1.115 and so he did. For hee slew Ioram the King, trod Iesabel vnder his horse feete, and caused the seuentie sonnes of Achab that were nourced in Samaria to be slaine; and slew all that remained of the house of Achab in Izrael, and all that were great with him, and his familiars, and his Priests, so that he let none of his remaine.

Phi.

Then yet here was one king deposed.

Theo.

Here was no king deposed by any Prophet, but one slaine by Iehu, to whom God gaue the Kingdome of Achab for this intent,* 1.116 that he should roote out the whole house and offspring of Achab.

Phi.

Did Iehu well to kill his master and to take the kingdome from him and his heires?

Theo.

Being expresly commanded thereto by God him∣selfe, he did but his dutie. For God may take and giue Kingdomes as hee will, though man may not.

Phi.

Authoritie so to doe Iehu receaued from Eliseus.

Theo.

Unsay that, for feare least you fal into a malicious and wicked vntruth. The Prophet that annointed Iehu beganne his message with, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel; and not thus saith Elizeus.

Phi.

But Elizeus sent him and gaue him instructions what to doe and what to say.

Theo.

Let that bee so. Then Elizeus taught him to doe this errand in Gods name, and not in his own, and consequently Iehu receiued authoritie from God,* 1.117 and not from man. Now view your argument. God may giue kingdomes to whom he will, and appoint y^e subiect to be the reuenger of his masters sinne; ergo the Pope may do the like. Be you not the right members of Antichrist, when you make such reasons to flatter the Bishop of Rome?

Phi.

The Scripture saith of Elias: He cast downe Kings, destroied them and plucked the honorable from their Seates:* 1.118 and of Eliseus in the same place he neuer feared Prince, nor could be ouercome by any.

Theo.

If the Scrip∣ture will not serue your turnes, you wil make it I perceaue by one meanes or o∣ther. The wordes as they lie in the Greeke are 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉:* 1.119 Hee brought Kinges to destruction, and the mightie from their beddes: you to help the matter put in termes of your owne and say he cast downe Kings, destroied them and plucked them from their Seats,* 1.120 as if Elias had beene some Iustie swash-buckler to plucke them out by the eares, and not a zealous and sincere Prophet to denounce the will of God vnto them with the perill of his owne life, for the which he is commended. And so of Eli∣zeus, the wise man saith, He was shaken (that is driuen from the doing of his dutie or afearde to doe that which God willed him) for any ruler. These and such like praises,* 1.121 if you take them as in Prophets and Preachers they may and ought to be taken: (which is not to shrinke from declaring the will of God for any Prince, & to aduertise them as well as others of the danger and destruction

that hangeth ouer their heads) they be great vertues; and shined in Elias and E∣liseus very brightly: But if you aggrauate words to persuade men that Elias or Eliseus did depose princes as superiour iudges, or layd violent hands on them to pul them from their thrones; you make them Rebellious disturbers of states, which was farre from them: and not religious seruants to God, as in deede they were.

Phi.

* 1.122By these examples of holy Scriptures we see: first, that annointed and law∣fully created Kings may be deposed: secondly, for what causes they were depriued: thirdly, that as in the creation and consecration of Kings▪ so also in their depriuation, God vsed the ministerie of Priests and Prophets, as either ordinarie or extraordinarie Iudges or executors of his wil towards them.

Theo.

Your examples haue beene throughly considered; and howsoeuer you correct and qualifie your conclusion, the precedents no way fitte your purpose. That annointed and lawfully created Kings may be chased from the gouern∣ment;* 1.123 the example of Iehu will iustifie: if you adde these two prouisoes, that the warrant be special from Gods own mouth, & the fact be done by the Magistrate whom God hath authorized to take the sword; for so doth Iehues example re∣quire: the rest intend no such thing. The Princes which you name were either not deposed, or not lawfully created. Saul was presently reiected from Gods fauour and spirit, from the possession of the Kingdome hee was not, but only cutte off from the succession. Ieroboam was sorely threatned, and Vzziah sharply punished, but yet neither of them deposed. Achab was twise rebuked by Elias, but not depriued: And Athalia whom the hie-Priest in the young Kings name commaunded to bee slaine, vsurped, and was neuer lawfully created.

The causes for which they were depriued, wee neede not dispute of, vn∣lesse you first shew that they were depriued.* 1.124 Athalia was slaine neither for Apo∣stasie, nor heresie, but for vsurping the Crowne against the right heire. Vzziahs actes were commended, but his pride detested by God. Ioram was of no worse religion than Achab his Father, and others before him, and after him, which yet were not deposed: But God reuenged on him, the whor∣domes, and witchcraftes of his mother Iesabel, which hee suffered, and the bloud of all his seruantes the Prophets, which hee spilt in the raigne both of Achab and Ioram. That cause the Prophet vttered to Iehu: and Iehu to Ioram when hee slew by Israel: And this plague vppon Achabs wife and house Elias threatned after the killing of Naboth.

Phi.

Was not Ioram an Idolater?

Theo.

Yeas, that encreased his sinne, but it was not the cause that he lost his kingdome.

Your third obseruation halteth downe right, and doubleth so many times either, and or, that in effect you resolue nothing. You say God vsed the ministe∣rie of Priests and Prophets in the depriuation of Kings. He vsed their mouthes to foretell, and declare the plagues that he would send on Princes: and some∣times their hands to annoint such as he would haue succeede: But he vsed

them, neither as ordinarie, nor extraordinarie Iudges, nor executors to depose Princes. Messengers they were, to deliuer by worde of mouth that which God had determined, to such as did, or shoulde inherite the kingdome; other exe∣cution, or authoritie to depriue Princes they had none: And this is farre from that which you claime for the Pope: whome you make the superuisour of Princes, and an ordinarie Iudge to compell them and displace them if hee see cause.

Phi.

For so much as these Princes helde their dignities and Soueraigne authorities of God,* 1.125 and were bound to occupie and vse the same, with what forces soeuer they had, to the aduauncement of his Religion, and to the true worshippe and honour of their supreme Lord and Master: as also to the bene••ite and preserua∣tion of his people in fayth and feare of him: the Priestes and Prophetes (that then had the principall and direct charge of mens soules and Religion, and were in spi∣rituall matters superiours to their owne Princes) rightly opposed themselues in all such actions as tended to the dishonour of GOD, destruction of Religion, and to the notorious domage of the soules of them ouer whome they did raigne: and in the behalfe of GOD executed iustice vpon such, as contrarie to their obligation and first institution, abused their soueraigne power, to the destructi∣on of true religion and aduauncement of Idolatrie, Heresie, or such like abho∣mination.

Theo.

Neuer giue vs a reason why Princes may bee deposed by Priests,* 1.126 and Prophets, so long as the fact it selfe is in doubt, & not yet proued to be law∣ful. That kings holde their soueraigne authorities of God, and are bound to vse the same to the aduauncement of his true worship and honour; as also to the preseruation of his people in the faith and feare of him; this is a point alwayes vrged by vs, and lately confessed by you before you were ware: for you were wont to tell vs that Princes might not meddle with spirituall things or causes: and now you pro∣fesse that Princes are bound to vse their authorities and forces whatsoeuer to the aduauncement of Gods religion, and to the true worship and honour of God and pre∣seruation of his people in the fayth and feare of him. This then is a sound and an e∣uident trueth alleaged by vs, and allowed by you. But when you grow from this to conclude, that if Princes vse not their swordes and forces as they shoulde and are bounde, Priestes may take their dignities and authorities from them: you put Iron feete to a golden head, and thinke the metals wil agree. But you bee ••owly, deceiued. Your consequent is as false, as your antecedent is true. That Princes shoulde vse their swordes for the seruice of GOD, is a cleare and vndoubted principle: but that Prophetes, Priests, or Popes may take their Scepters from them, if they vse them otherwise than they ought, this is a false presumption of yours, and not a consequent ei∣ther of your former examples, or your later excurrents, where you f••••∣rish about with many pretences, and prefaces to shew the reason of your wic∣ked assertion.

Phi.

Our conclusion is, that the Priests and Prophets rightly opposed them∣selues

in all such actions as tended to the dishonour of God, and destruction of religion, and in the behalfe of God executed iustice vpon such as contrarie to their obligation, and first institution abused their soueraigne power to the aduancement of Idolatrie, & heresie.

Theo.

What wordes you list to colour and cloake your conclusion with, wee care not.* 1.127 The matter in question betwixt vs, is not, whether Prophetes might oppose themselues by way of reproofe, or do that which God commaunded them to the terror of Idolatrous Princes: which you call executing of iustice in Gods behalfe vpon such as abused their power. But in plaine termes whether euer any Priest or Prophet by vertue of their vocation as superiour Iudges, did vio∣lently withstand, or iudicially depose Idolatrous or hereticall Princes? You take vppon you to proue by holy Scripture they did: we say they did not. They reproued them and threatned them by special direction and message from God: they neuer deposed any. Onely God sent one of them to will Iehu to take the sword in hand, and as a lawfull magistrate nominated and elected by God him∣selfe, to take vengeance on Achabs house and race. Whence it will not follow that other Priests and Prophets by their ordinarie calling might do the like, or giue Crownes and kingdomes as they sawe cause. This was and is specially reserued vnto God.* 1.128 When hee speaketh the worde, Princes shall loose not only Scepter and State, but life and soule: and vntill hee speake, neither Apostles, nor Prophets, Priests, nor Popes, may presume to dispose kingdomes, or name successours to the Crownes of earthly Princes.

Phi.

* 1.129In these cases, and all other doubtes and differences betwixt one man and an other, or betwixt Prince and people; that Priestes and namely the high Priest shoulde bee the Arbiter and Iudge, & the interpreter of Gods wil towards his people; is most consonant both to nature, reason, the vse of all nations, and to the expresse Scriptures.

* 1.130For in Gods sacred Law thus we read: Si difficile & ambiguum apud te iudicium esse prospexeris inter sanguinem & sanguinem, causam & causam, lepram & non le∣pram &c.* 1.131 If thou foresee the iudgement to be hard and ambiguous, betwixt bloud and bloud, cause and cause, leprosie or no leprosie; and find varietie of sentences among the iudges at home: rise and goe vp to the place, which the Lorde thy God shall chuse, and thou shalt come to the Priests of Leuies stocke, and to the iudge that shall be for the time; thou shalt aske of them, & they will iudge according to the trueth of iudgement: and thou shalt doe whatsoeuer they say that haue the rule of the place which God shall chuse, and shall teache thee according to his lawe: thou shalt not decline neither to the right hand nor left. And if any shall bee so proude as not to obey the commandement of the Priest that shall for that time minister vnto the Lord thy God, by the sentence of the iudge let that man die; and so thou shalt re∣moue euil from Israel: and al the people hearing shall feare and take heede, that hereafter they waxe not proude.

Thus farre in the holy text generally with out all exception: subiecting in cases of such doubtes as are recited, all degrees of faithfull men, no lesse kinges than others, to the Priests resolution.

Theo.

What will you doe to help your cause, that will thus both corrupt & wrest the Scriptures to make them serue your fansies? You wilfully peruert the words of the holy Ghost to bring them to your beck: and as if that were not corruption enough, you wrench & force the sense of the Scripture against reasō, against trueth, against the whole course of the Iewes common wealth, & against the very partes, and branches of the text it selfe.

Phi.

First what corruption haue wee committed in the wordes?* 1.132

Theo.

That where the wordes are, If any through pride will not obay the com∣maundement of the Priest, which shall for the time minister vnto the Lord thy God, or (disobay) the Decree of the Iudge, that man shall die: you change them and say, If any man will not obay the commaundement of the Priest by the Decree of the Iudge, that man shall die.

Phi.

So the latine is, Ex decreto ••udicis morietur homo ille, By the decree of the Iudge shal that man die.

Theo.

But the Greeke and Hebrue are cleane against it. The words of the Septua∣gint are * 1.133 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, The man whosoeuer he be, that shal in pride not obay the Priest, (that is appointed to minister vnto y^e name of y^e Lord:) or (els shal not obay) the iudge which shalbe in those daies, that man shal die, & thou shalt take the euil one from Israel. The Hebrew is answerable to the Greeke, The man that shal doe in pride, Lebilthi shemóahh el-haccohèn hahhomèd Lesháreth shàm eth-Iehouà elohéca, ò el-hasshophèt: umeth haïsh hahù, not to heare the Priest or the Iudge, that man shall die. And so did Cyprian * 1.134 repete this text, Et homo quicunque fecerit in superbia, vt non exaudiat Sacerdotem aut Iudicem, quicunque fuerit in diebus illis, morietur homo ille, & omnis populus cum audierit, timebit. And the man, whosoeuer shall in pride not heare the Priest OR THE IVDGE, which shal be in those dayes, that man shal die, and al the people when they heare of it, shall feare.

Phi.

But S. Hierom read it otherwise, as you see by his translation.

Theo.

You haue corrupted the translation which you call S. Hieroms,* 1.135 and now you would bolster out your forgeries with his name: Howbeit knowe you that the very same translatiō not long since was not Ex decreto iudicis, but & decreto iu∣dicis: He that obeyeth not the cōmandement of the Priest,* 1.136 and the decree of the iudge, that man shall die. This was the text of the Bible which you cal S. Hierome not much more than 200 yeres since, when Nicolaus de Lyra & your ordinarie Glosse did cōment vpon it. And so they read to this day as also many written copies that I haue seene. Hereupon Lyra saith, In these & such cases they must haue recourse to the superiour Iudges, that is to the high Priest, and the Iudge of the people. And sometimes it fell out that both offices did concurre in one person, as in Heli who was both Iudge and high-Priest: but commonly both the Persons were distinct and the offices. And hence grew the custome, from inferiour ecclesiastical Iudges to appeale to the High-Priest, and from inferiour Princes & secular Iudges to appeale

to the King or Emperour. You haue turned & into ex, and not only de∣barred the Prince of all his right, but subiected him to the Priest In al doubts and differences betwixt Prince and people, euen to the losse of his Crowne if the Priest say the word.* 1.137

Phi.

We follow the latine text as wee found it.

Theo.

You might easi∣ly follow that which your selues had framed to your liking, but the order of the Iewes common wealth and the circumstances of the text it selfe admitte no such meaning, as you make of it. For it is more than euident, and testified not in a few places of the scriptures, that al causes neither were, nor might bee referred to the Priest.

Moses at the counsell of Iethro chose men of courage out of all Israel & made them heads ouer the people, Rulers ouer thousands, Rulers ouer hun∣dreds, Rulers ouer fifties, Rulers ouer tens. And they iudged the people at all seasons, but brought the hard causes vnto Moses: for they iudged al small (or easie) matters themselues. And though Moses by them was eased of all sauing hard and importing causes, yet finding that burden too heauie for one man alone, he complained vnto God and saide, I am not able to beare all this people alone, for it is too heauie for me. To whom God made answere, Ga∣ther me seuentie men of the Elders of Israel, and bring them vnto the Ta∣bernacle of the Congregation, and I will come downe, and talke with them there, and take off the spirit that is vpon thee and put it vpon them, and they shal beare the burden of the people with thee: so thou shalt not beare it alone.* 1.138

This distinction of inferiour and superiour iudges God after by his law established in that common wealth for euer. In the next chapter before this which you alledge, order is taken for inferiour iudge in euery Citie throughout the Land. Iudges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates (that is in al thy Cities) which the Lord thy God giueth thee through∣out thy Tribes, and they shall iudge the people with righteous Iudge∣ment.

In this Chapter and these very wordes which here you cite, Superiour iudges are prescribed,* 1.139 to whom harder causes and matters of greater difficultie were to be referred. And so the wordes precisely sound. If there fall out an hard matter for thee to iudge, betwene blood and blood, strife and strife, sore and sore, that be matters of iudgement in thy gates, thou shalt rise and go vp to the place which the Lord thy God shall chose there (in the land of promise.) And goe to the Priests of Leui, and to the Iudge which shall be in those dayes, and aske them, and they shall shew thee the matter of iudge∣ment. The iudge of which he speaketh was y^e tēporal Magistrate, for so the co∣pulatiue leadeth vs, and by that name were the chiefe Rulers of Gods People called, before Kings were ordayned as the Booke of Iudges witnesseth; neither was the iudge subiect to the Priest, but had his charge besides and aboue the Priest, which was to see the law of God exactly kept and obserued in all points

of all men,* 1.140 and to take vengeance on the breaker of any part thereof, when as yet there were no kinges, and after the creation of kinges both Priest and Iudge were subiect to the king.

This fourme of regiment by lower and higher Iudges and those both eccle∣siasticall and cyuill, king Iehosaphat renewed after he returned safe from the battell wherein Achab was slaine. For hee set Iudges in the Lande in all the fensed Cities of Iudah, Citie by Citie. Also in Ierusalem hee appointed of the Leuites and of the Priestes and of the heades of the houses of Israel for the iudgement of the Lorde and for matters of doubt, and they dwelt at Hierusalem. And hee commaunded them saying, thus shall yee doe in the feare of the Lorde, in trueth, and in a perfect heart euery cause that shall come before you from your brethren remayning in their Cities, be∣tweene blood and blood, betweene Lawe and precept, statutes and iudge∣ments, you shall instruct them therein, and they shall not trespasse against the Lorde. And beholde Amariah the Priest (shall bee) chiefe ouer you in euery matter of the Lordes;* 1.141 and Zebadiah the captaine of the house of Iudah (shall bee chiefe ouer you) in euery matter of the kinges, and the Leuites shalbee Rulers (or ouerseers) in your presence (or vnder you.) Ieho∣saphat put that in execution which GOD prescribed by Moses for the de∣bating and determining of greater and weightier causes among the chil∣dren of Israel placing a Councell of Priestes, and secular Magistrates at Hierusalem to consider of those doubtes of the Lawe, and offences against GOD and the king, which passed the reache of inferiour Iudges in eue∣ry Citie.

Marke then howe many errors you haue committed in alleaging this one place.* 1.142 The gouernement which God setled in their common wealth to supply the want of kinges, the defence might both ouer-rule kinges and depose kinges, and yet when this was ordained, there was no king created, nor intended in Israel, much lesse included, or subiected to this consistorie. A∣gaine where obedience in these wordes is commaunded as well towardes the ciuil magistrate as towards the Priest,* 1.143 you strike out the magistrate cleane, and bring both Prince and people in subiection to the Priest in things and cau∣ses that be not spiritual, but temporal. For the deposing of Princes is a meere temporal act, and you haue lesse to doe with Princes Crownes, than with pri∣uate mens inheritances which yet the priest may not dispose. Thirdly the mat∣ters which belonged to them, and the iudgements which they should giue; were precisely limited to the lawe of God: in other thinges they might not pre∣sume. Nowe resisting,* 1.144 and deposing of Princes bee things cleane besides the Lawe which Moses deliuered, and therefore not determinable by those that sate to iudge according to that Law. Fourthly what question can this bee betweene the Prince and the people whether the Magistrate shalbee deposed since GOD hath expressely commaunded the people to bee subiect to the sworde and not to resist: against the which precept no earthly Court

may deliberate, much lesse determine to breake his lawe, or licence the people to frustrate his heauenly wil. It is one thing to disburden the cōscience from obey∣ing the euill that a Prince commaundeth, which a Priest may doe: and an other thing to take the Princes sworde out of his hand for abusing his authori∣tie, which the Priest may not doe.* 1.145 Lastly you force the whole text against the manifest experience of those times. For it is euident that kinges commaunded and displaced high Priestes: but that euer high Priest iudicially displaced a Prince, you shall neuer shewe. Omitte Abimelech whom Saul slewe for fauou∣ring Dauid, and Zachariah whom king Ioash commaunded to bee stoned, not remembring the kindnes of Ioida his father, that saued him aliue, and set him in his kingdome: Did not Salomon cast out Abiathar from being (high) Priest, because hee tooke part with Adoniah his elder brother? Where by your conclusion Salomon shoulde haue beene deposed because the high Priest thought Adoniahs right to the Crowne to bee better than Salo∣mons.

Wee shewe you where the Prince remoued the Priest from his honour and primacie, but you can not shewe vs that euer Priest remooued Prince in that Common wealth from his royal dignitie, and yet was there then as vr∣gent, and as euident cause to do it, as you can nowe, or doe pretend. For all the kings of Israel were open Idolaters, Iehu himselfe not excepted, and yet not one of them deposed by Priest, or Prophet, so long as their kingdome stoode, which was 253. yeeres. The greater part of the kinges of Iudah, euen foure∣teene of them were likewise plaine Idolaters: as Salomon, Roboam, Abi∣am, Ioram, Ahaziah, Ioash, Amazias, Ahaz, Manasses, Amon, Ioachaz, Eli∣akim, Ioacim, Zedechias: and not a Priest, or Prophete in Iudah so much as offered to displace, or resist one of them. If by Gods Lawe, as you sup∣pose, the Priestes were superiour Iudges to punish such offences euen in prin∣ces, howe can you excuse the high Priest, and the rest to whom that charge was committed for not executing that power which God gaue them vpon these wic∣ked and Idolatrous Princes?

Phi.

The kinges were too mightie for them to remoue.

Theo.

That happilie might hinder the effect, but not the attempt of their iudgement. We doe not obiect that they were vnable, but that they neuer made the onset or offer to doe it.

Phi.

The crueltie of those kinges caused them to forbeare.

Theo.

That is not true. Many Priests and Prophetes gaue their liues for reproouing them: and more it coulde not cost to depose them. Againe, Manasses was caried captiue out of his Realme in the midst of his furious I∣dolatrie: and yet in his absence and miserie no man stirred against him, but his kingdome was reserued for him till hee was released out of prison, and sent backe from Babylon. It was therefore not for feare of death, but for re∣gard of duetie that the zealous Priests and Prophetes submitted their per∣sons to those wicked Princes, whose Idolatrie they reproued with the losse of their liues.

Phi.

This co••dition was afterwarde to bee im••lied in the receiuing of any king ouer the people of God and true beleeuers for euer:* 1.146 videlicet that they should not re∣duce their people by force or otherwise from the faith of their forefathers, and the reli∣gion and holy ceremonies thereof, receiued at the hands of Gods Priests and none other: Insinuating, that obse••uing these precepts and conditions, hee and his sonne after him might long reigne: Otherwise, as by the practise of their deposition in the bookes and tyme of the kinges it afterward ••ppeareth (whereof we haue set downe some examples before) the Prophets and Pristes that annointed them, of no other condition but to keepe and maintaine the honour of God and his worshippe, depriued them againe, when they brake with their Lorde, and fell to straunge Gods, and forced their people to doe the like.

Theo.

God would haue the more care to be taken in choosing a king,* 1.147 be∣cause it was too late to refuse him when he was once chosen: But I trust your selfe will not say that all those conditions which God requireth in a king, are forfeitures of his Crowne if he transgresse in any of them. GOD in expresse woordes and in the very same place, chargeth that the king shall not haue many wiues, nor many horses, nor abundaunce of golde, nor siluer, nor lift his heart vp aboue his brethren; and thinke you that if a king did offend in any of these, he was to bee deposed? The precept which your selfe alleage doth not onely concerne the publike sufferance of true religion, but the perfect ob∣seruance of euery point that was contained in the lawe of God.* 1.148 Hee shall read in the booke of the Lawe all the dayes of his life, that hee may learne to feare the Lorde his God, and to obserue all the woordes of this Lawe and these statutes to doe them. And trowe you the breach of any point of Gods Lawe was depriuation to the king? You must bee voyde of all sense if you de∣fend these thinges, and yet these bee conditions, or as you delight to call them, couenants which God exacteth in him that shall bee king ouer his elect and pe∣culiar people.

The knitting vppe of your matter is like the rest of your discourse. The Prophetes and Priestes (you say) that annointed them,* 1.149 of no other co••diti∣on but to keepe and maintaine the honour of God, and his true worshippe, depri∣ued them againe when they brake with their Lorde and fell to straunge Gods, and forced their people to doe the like. It is vtterly vntrue that euer Priest or Prophete deposed Prince in the common wealthes of Israel, or Iu∣dah. There were, as the Scripture testifieth, of the kinges of Israel nine∣teene, and fourteene of the kinges of Iuda that brake with their Lorde, and sell to straunge Gods, and forced their people to doe the like. Shewe that one of them was depriued by any Priest, or Prophete, and take the whole: if you can not,* 1.150 leaue false supposing, and vaine craking, and tell on your tale.

Phi.

And this it was in the old law. But now in the new Testament and in the time of Christs spirituall kingdome in the Church, Priests haue much more soueraigne au∣thoritie, and Princes farre more strict charge, to obay, loue and cherish the Church.

Theo.

What was in the olde Lawe you haue sayd and wee haue seene: and ex∣cept I bee deceiued you found there very litle for your purpose: In the newe Testament I can assure you, you will find lesse. Where you say that Priests now in the Church,* 1.151 haue much more soueraigne authoritie than Priests had in the law of Moses: the comparing of their authorities is very superfluous. Haue they more or lesse, it is nothing to this question; Authoritie to depose Princes they neither then had, nor nowe haue, which is it that you seeke for. In what sort Princes are bound to loue, cherish, and obey the Church, was declared before, and neede not nowe bee repeated: But the Church is neither charged nor licen∣ced by Christ to take Princes Crownes from them. Subiection is rather enioyned her in earthly thinges vnto Princes, which can not stand with your thrusting them from their thrones, vnlesse you take rebellion to be subiection, which were very strange. And depriuing them of their right, is worse than re∣belling against thē to defend your right, which yet is not tolerable. For he that * 1.152resisteth them, shall receiue iudgement.

Phi.

In the Church without fayle is the supereminent power of Christes Priest∣hoode, who with his Iron rodde bruseth the pride of Princes, that rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth, like a potters po••shard: and hath right in his Church o∣uer all kingdomes, to plant and plucke vp, to buyld and destroy, afore whom al kings shall fall downe, and all Nations do him seruice.

Theo.

That the Sonne of God will bruse the pride of those Princes with an Iron rodde which rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth,* 1.153 like a potters shard, and that he hath right both within (and without) his Church ouer all kingdomes, to plant and plucke vp, to buyld and destroy, afore whom all kings on earth (and Angels in heauen) shall fall downe, and doe him seruice: these thinges are vndoubted with vs, and brought in by you but onely for a windlace to make the reader cast his eyes on Christ and his kingdome, while you closely conuey the Princes Scep∣ter vnder the Popes feete. Accursed bee hee that doeth not confesse the supere∣minent power which the Sonne of God hath ouer all kingdomes, ouer all crea∣tures, ouer the States and liues, bodies and soules of all men. Wil you thence inferre the Pope hath the like? In sooth masters you must make hard shift be∣fore these reasons will bee good.

Phi.

Christs Priestly prerogatiue, passing his owne regall dignitie (much more ex∣celling all other humane power of the worlde) in most ample and exact termes is cō∣municated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules,* 1.154 and secondarily to the rest of the gouernours of the Church; in other manner of clauses than any earthly Prin∣ces can shewe for their pretensed spirituall regiment. Fie on that secular pride & wil∣full blind heresie, so repugning against Gods expresse ordinaunce; and yet is of wic∣ked Sect-masters and flatterers vpholden to the eternall calamitie of themselues, and of millions of others.

Theo.

This is stale Rhetorike to come with an outcrie, when you should make your conclusion. Conclude first and rayle after: otherwise you shewe your selues to trust more to the slippernes of your tongues than to the sound∣nes

of your cause.

Phi.

Our illation is euident. Christ as a Priest bruseth the pride of Princes with his Iron rodde, and hath right ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vppe, buyld and destroy. But Christs Priestly prerogatiue in most ample and exact termes is com∣municated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules. The chiefe Pastor there∣fore hath the like right ouer all kingdomes to plant, plucke vp, buyld, and de∣stroy.

Theo.

The power which you mention in your first proposition, is at∣tributed to Christ not as a Priest, but as a king. The wordes of the Psalme are very plaine to that end.* 1.155 I haue set my king vpon my holy hill of Sion. Aske of mee and I will giue thee the heathen for thine inheritaunce, and the endes of the earth for a possession to thee. Thou shalt crush them with a scepter of Iron, and breake them in pieces like a potters vessell. S. Iohn ap∣plieth the same place to the royal and not to the Priestly power of Christ.* 1.156 I saw the heauen open, and beholde a white horse, and hee that sate vpon him was called faithful and true, and hee iudgeth and fighteth in righteousnes. On his head were many Crownes, and out of his mouth went a sharpe sword, that with it he should smite the heathen, and hee shal rule them with a rod of Iron.* 1.157 And hee hath on his garment and on his thigh a name writ∣ten, the King of Kings and Lord of Lordes. Howe thinke you? His horse, his Crowne, his robe, his traine, his sworde, his stile described in this place, expresse they his Priestly or Princely prerogatiue? As a Priest hee sacrificed himselfe on the crosse▪ and had his owne blood shed, for the remission of sinnes: As a King, hee subdueth his enemies and maketh them like dust vn∣der his feete, bee they Princes or others. Your Maior is therefore false, that to bruse kings with an Iron rod, and to breake them in pieces like a potters shard is a priuilege of Christs Priesthoode and not of his Princehoode.

Your Minor, that Christs Priestly prerogatiue is communicated in most ample & exact termes to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of the Church, hath farre lesse trueth in it than your Maior. For al the prerogatiue of Christs Priesthood is not com∣municated to any other.* 1.158 Such an high Priest, saith S. Paul, it became vs to haue, which shoulde be, holy, vndefiled separated from sinners, made higher than the heauens: * 1.159 who in the end of the world appeared once to put away sinne by the offering vp of himselfe, and after that * 1.160 one sacrifice for sinne is set down for euer at the right hand of God, hauing * 1.161 obtained eternal redēp∣tion (for vs) and being * 1.162 able perfectly to saue them that come to God by him, seeing he euer lyueth to make intercession for them. These and many such prerogatiues of his Priesthood I hope you will not empart to the Pope, lest wee crie, fie on your blasphemous hearts and mouthes, which set the man of sinne equall with the sonne of God. If you restraine your Minor by confessing that not all, but some of the prerogatiues of Christes Priesthoode are com∣municated to others; then your conclusion hath no force, both your premisses being meere particulars. For though Christ gaue some part of his power & ho∣nour to his Apostles; yet this hee gaue not, and therefore his gift to them

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can doe you no good, vnlesse you prooue that hee gaue them this prerogatiue a∣mongst the rest which he bestowed on them.

Phi.

* 1.163Hee sayd to Peter and his successours; Whatsoeuer thou bindest on earth shall be bound in heauen, and whatsoeuer thou losest in earth shall bee loosed in heauen: Can you require a more ample graunt?

Theo.

Peter and the rest were to bind and lose the sinnes and soules of men by the woord and sa∣craments, not the Scepters and swords of Princes. And so Christ himselfe ex∣poundeth his graunt vnto them.* 1.164 Whose sinnes soeuer you remit, they are re∣mitted vnto them: and whose sinnes soeuer yee retaine, they are retayned. And in this place you leaue out the first part of the graunt which should direct the whole.* 1.165 I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen, not of the kingdomes on earth. Bernard though he were but of late yeeres, yet was he not afraid to tel Pope Eugenius:* 1.166 ergo in criminibus, non in possessionibus potestas vestra, quoniam propter illa & non propter has accepistis claues regni caelorum. Your power concerneth sinnes and not possessions, because yee receiued the keyes of the kingdome of heauen for those thinges, and not for these. And so Theophilact,* 1.167 Vnderstand the keyes which bind and lose, to bee the pardo∣ning, or punishing of sinnes.

* 1.168And so S. Ambrose: The right of the holy Ghost consisteth in bynding and losing of sinnes. As also Saint Augustine, The keyes (Christ) gaue to his Church, that what she loosed in earth, should be loosed in heauen: and what she did bind in earth, shoulde bee bound in heauen: to witte, that whosoeuer would not beleeue his sinnes might bee forgiuen in the Church, should not haue them forgiuen: and whosoeuer would beleeue it and depart from his sinnes, by amending his life in the bosome of the same Church, shoulde by that faith and conuersion be healed. And neuer writer since Christs time did euer extend the power of the keyes vnto any thing, saue vnto the forgiuing and retayning of sinnes.

Phi.

No more doe wee: this onely we adde, that when Princes are bounde in earth for their sinnes, they loose that interest which they had in their king∣domes.

Theo.

That position you vndertooke to proue by the holy Scriptures, but as yet you be wide: you still suppose it, and doe not proue it.

Phi.

* 1.169Now (in the newe Testament) all Christes sheepe, without exception, bee they Princes, be they poore, (if they be Christian men) are put to Peters feeding & go∣uernement. Now the keyes of heauen be deliuered to Christs Vicar in earth; to let in, to locke out; to bind, to loose; to punish, to pardon. Now we be cōmanded euery one, (be we kings,* 1.170 be we Caesars) to obey our Prelats and Pastors, and to bee subiect to them, as to those that must make accompt to God for our soules: wherein what Christian Prince may except himselfe?

Theo.

You role from text to text abusing the woordes and peruerting the sense as you goe; and when all is saide you bee euen as neere as you were at first before you began. For what if al these places do concerne Princes, as well as others: wil you thence inferre, that princes may be deposed? Then these must

be your argumentes.* 1.171 Princes must bee taught, ergo Princes may bee depo∣sed. Prie••tes may exclude them from the kingdom of heauen: ergo likewise from their kingdomes on earth. Princes must obey sounde doctrine comming from their Pastours mouthes; ergo if they refuse, they may be deposed, Sure∣ly such reasons set not them besides their seates, but you rather besides your wittes; for what apparance of trueth haue these ridiculous and impious moc∣keries? Feede my sheepe,* 1.172 that is, depose Princes. I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdom of heauen, that is, I will giue thee the thrones of earth∣ly kinges.* 1.173 Be aduised by your leaders, and yeeld (to their good perswasions,) for they watch ouer your soules:* 1.174 that is, obey the Pope when he thrusteth you from your goods, landes and liues. Had you but one dramme of shame or sense in you, you woulde neuer sende vs such sottish and vnsauorie sequeles.

Phi.

They be of your framing, we sent them not.

Theo.

We annexe the conclusion, which you must, and would infer to the places which you alleadge: and in so doing we can not abuse you. Out of the 21. of S. Iohn what woulde you cite but this charge to Peter, feed my sheepe? In the 16. of S. Matthew; what finde you there but the promise of our Sauiour, I wil giue thee the keies of the kingdom of heauē: whatsoeuer thou bindest (or losest) in earth, shalbe bound (and losed) in heauen? All the wordes which the 13. to the Hebrewes hath for your purpose, are 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 y^• is be perswaded (by their words) and giue place to their admonitions, which watch ouer your soules. Nowe what your conclusion is and must be, neither can any man doubt, nor do your selues dissemble. For the fift chapter of your immodest and vntrue defence of English Catholikes as you call them, proposeth & purposely handleth the de∣priuation of Princes for heresie, and falling from the faith. So that helpe the matter how you can with your glozes and phrases: these be your antecedēts, and this is your consequent.

Phi.

Well, if Peter must feede Princes, why may not Peter depose Prin∣ces?* 1.175

Theo.

Taking their Crownes from them, is not preaching the Gospell vnto them, which Christ ment by feeding.

Phi.

But Peter may correct them as well as feede them, and depriuation is but correction.

Theo.

Any Pastor may reproue them, & if they withstand the trueth, that bindeth them in earth & shutteth heauen against them. But other correction on the goodes, landes or bodies of priuate men preachers may not exercise, much lesse intermeddle with the Seates and Scepters of Princes.

Phi.

Be we kinges, be we Caesars, we are commaunded to obey our Prelates and Pa∣stours, and to be subiect to them.

Theo.

Princes, and all other christians must be reuerent and obedient to the word and Sacramentes which God hath put in the mouthes, and handes of his messengers: other subiection to Prelates, or Pastors is none due.

Phi.

And if they refuse to be subiect to the word or Sacra∣mentes, shall not Pastors punish them, though they be Princes?* 1.176

Theo.

Let them sinke in their sinnes, and leaue them to God; that is punishment enough.

Phi.

Shal they goe no farther?

Theo.

Externall, or corporall meanes by

losse of life, landes, or goodes, God hath not allowed any Pastour to compell, or punish his sheepe withall.

Phi.

Then may Princes freely despise both the word and the Preacher.

Theo.

If you call that freedome,* 1.177 to fall into the handes of the liuing God, which S. Paul saith is a fearefull thing. * 1.178 Whosoeuer shall not receiue you, nor heare your wordes, when you depart out of that house, or that citie, shake off the dust of your feete. Truely I say vnto you it shall bee easier for them of the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement,* 1.179 than for that citie. Is not this reuenge sufficient for Princes that turne from the truth, vnlesse you also must be fingering of their crownes, and treadding on their necks?

Phi.

That would terrifie them more, than the threatning of helfire.

Theo.

It may be that contenteth your appetites better, but God hath reserued the pu∣nishment of Princes to himselfe, and not assigned it ouer vnto you. Howbeit why doe you wander thus from the question? You should proue by the worde of God that Princes may be deposed. Why then doe you linger and make so many profers before you come to your purpose?

Phi.

Will you haue a plaine proofe out of the new Testament that Princes may be deposed?* 1.180

Theo.

That is it wee looked for all this while.

Phi.

Pa∣stours haue full authoritie to forbid vs the companie of heretikes, blasphemers and idolaters, and such like: and not so much as to salute them, much more not to obey them.

Theo.

Is this your best discretion? We must not be companions with idolaters,* 1.181 ergo we must not be subiects to Princes?

Phi.

If they be conuicted of heresie or idolatrie.

Theo.

Put you no difference betwixt familiars and sub∣iectes.

Phi.

If we may not be familiar with them, much lesse subiect vnder them.

Theo.

Are you not low drawen, when you come with such dregges?

Phi.

Iest not at it, but answere it.

Theo.

Be earnest in any case. It is a very profound and substantiall reason.

Phi.

Substantial or superficial it skilleth not: refel it, or receiue it.

Theo.

Marke the strength of your argument. Needlesse companie with ido∣latrous & wicked persons is prohibited: ergo the necessarie subiection to Prin∣ces which God commandeth,* 1.182 may be refused.

Phi.

We say not needelesse com∣panie, but all companie.

Theo.

S. Paul by that worde excludeth not charity, much lesse duetie: but barreth only that familiaritie, which may be relinqui∣shed without breach of either.

Phi.

That is your paraphrase, not S. Pauls.

Theo.

Weigh the wordes of S. Paul better, and your selfe will bee of the same minde with me.

Thus he saith, I wrote vnto you by letters, that ye should not keepe com∣panie with fornicatours: and (I ment) not simplie with the fornica∣tours of this worlde, or with the couetous, or with extorsioners, or with idolatours; for then must you goe out of the world.* 1.183 But now haue I written to you that you shoulde not bee companions (with such.) If anie man that is called a brother be a Whoore-master, or couetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extorter: eate not with such an one.

To eate with a man, is familiaritie: that may be forborne without contempt of Christian Charitie, or dutie: and that the Apostle willeth them to refraine, tea∣ching the Thessalonians to what end, and in what sort he would haue it doone: If any man obay not our sayings,* 1.184 note him by a letter, and haue no com∣panie with him, that he may be ashamed: yet count him not as an enimie, but admonish him as a brother. When as yet there were no Christian ma∣gistates to keepe men by feare from offending, S. Paul chargeth the Christians to shew their zeale in shunning the companie of vnruly persons at meate, and other familiar meetinges; thereby the rather to make them ashamed, and to reduce them to Christian and comly behauiour. Which precept was general for all disorders. We commaund you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Iesus Christ,* 1.185 that you withdraw your selues frō euery brother that walketh inordinately, & not after the institution which you receiued of vs.

Phi.

For smaller offences this might be,* 1.186 but for heresie S. Paul saith, A man that is an hertike after the first and second admonition auoide. And so doth S. Iohn.* 1.187 If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, re∣ceiue him not into your house, nor say God saue you, vnto him. If we may not so much as salute them, doe you thinke we may serue them, or obey them?

Theo

Were you in debt to an heretike,* 1.188 would you not pay him his own, be∣cause you must not salute him?

Phi.

Debt is dew whether he be Turke, Infi∣del, or heretike; & therefore reason he haue his owne, but I must not do that which I neede not.

Theo.

And whether thinke you the truer debt that which groweth by our act and consent, or that which is imposed vppon vs by the will and commaundement of God? As when S. Paul saith,* 1.189 Owe nothing to any man: but giue to all men their due: Do you not think this as good debt as if it were in coyne?

Phi.

If it be their due.

Theo.

We owe it not if it be not due: but if it be, must we not render that which is due to all men, be they Turks, in∣fidels and heretikes?

Phi.

To heretiks nothing is due.* 1.190

Theo.

Doth not the seruant owe faithful dili∣gence to his master, notwithstanding his master be an infidel or an heretik?

Phi.

If the master become an heretik, the seruant is ipso facto made free.

Theo.

By whose law? Gods or mans?

Phi.

By the ciuill lawes of auncient Emperours.

Theo.

But before those lawes were made by Princes, might seruants by Gods law refuse their masters for idolatry or heresie?

Phi.

For idolatrie he might not, whatsoeuer for heresie.

The.

If God wil haue christiā seruāts * 1.191 obediēt & subiect to their masters in al things & * 1.192 to please thē though they be infidels & enimies to the faith;* 1.193 why not likewise to them that are deceiued in some points of faith?

The like we aske of man and wife. Might the husband forsake his wife, or the woman her husband for these causes?

Phi.

For infidelitie they might.

Theo.

And what for heresie?

Ph.

The case is not ruled.

Theo.

Yeas that it is. Our Sauiour forbiddeth all men to put awaie their wiues except it bee for * 1.194 adulte∣rie. Now adulterie is not heresie. And this was Pope Caelestinus his errour which Innocentius the 3. * 1.195 cōdemneth. Therfore the case is ruled both by Gods

Law, and by your own Decretals.

Phi.

They may not bee diuorced.

Theo.

Then must she continue still his wife, and is by Gods lawe bounde to * 1.196 bee subiect vnto him, and to loue him, though he be an heretike, or an infidel. And so are the children bound to * 1.197 cherish * 1.198 honor and * 1.199 obey their Parentes by the Lawe of God, notwithstanding they be Ethnikes, or aliens from the faith▪ And therefore these prohibitions: * 1.200 Eate not with them, * 1.201 keepe them not compa∣nie, * 1.202 salute them not, discharge not seruants, children, nor wiues for yeelding that duetie to their masters, parentes and husbandes which God hath com∣maunded, but cut off onely that familiar and friendly greeting, saluting & con∣uersing, which amongest brethren is requisite, but to wicked and vngodly per∣sons may without sinne be denied.

Phi.

What then is your answere?

Theo.

* 1.203S. Paul forbiddeth volunta∣rie companie, not necessarie duetie: S. Iohn those familar and friendly sa∣lutations which argue good liking and fauour to the parties, and may bee for∣borne, not that publike subiection to Magistrats which God hath inioyned vs, whether we will or no.

Phi.

Ought we to flatter Princes, if they be heretik••?

Theo.

We may flatter no man in that which is euill, yet must we giue euill mē that which God hath allowed them. The places which you bring, barre no kinde of duetie prescribed by the law of God, neither of seruauntes to their ma∣sters nor of children to their parentes,* 1.204 nor of wiues to their husbandes, though their masters, parentes, and husbands be heretikes: much lesse doe they prohi∣bite submission to Princes, which God exacteth before these domestical duties; and commaundeth all men, Apostles and Bishops not excepted, to giue feare, honour, subiection and tribute, to Princes, as their due; when Princes as yet were pernicious idolaters, and barbarous persecutors of the faith & faith∣full.

And who that hath any regard of trueth will preferre your crooked & shape∣lesse consequēts before the manifest doctrine of Christ and his Apostles?* 1.205 Giue to Caesar the things that be Caesars. * 1.206 You must bee subiect: whosoeuer resi∣steth power, resisteth the ordinance of God. * 1.207 Honour the king and submit your selues, whether it be to the king as (the chiefe &) excelling, or vnto the Gouernors as sent by him. For so is the wil of God. These be flat & plaine pre∣cepts which you can not ouerthrow, but with an euident, direct, and speciall release. The directions which the Apostles gaue to shame the disordered and shunne the wicked,* 1.208 when as yet there were no Christian Magistrates, to re∣presse them or punish them, may not rashly be stretched to the Magistrates per∣son or function, neither must you so force generall and indirect speeches of the Scripture, that they shall euert the speciall and expresse commaundements of God. But God hath expressely prescribed subiection and tribute to vitious, ty∣rannous, and Idolatrous Princes: for such they were of whom Christ and his Apostles spake, as no man can denie: Therefore no consequent of Scripture may be wrested against it, least you make the wil of God changeable or repug∣nant to it selfe, which is heinous impietie to perswade, or beleeue.

Phi.

To tyrants and idolaters we must he subiect,* 1.209 but not to heretikes al∣though they bee Princes.

Theo.

Confessing the former which you can not chose but admit, by what meanes auoide you the later? Heretiks may be Prin∣ces as well as idolaters; and to Princes in respect of their power not of their vertues God will haue vs subiect. S. Paul doeth not say Let euerie soule bee subiect to christian and vertuous powers; but, vnto supreme powers, euen whē they were worshippers of diuels, and spillers of christian blood. Let vs there∣fore heare what ground you haue out of Gods law why this precept, you must be subiect, shall hold in blasphemous and Idoolatrous Princes, but not in he∣reticall or excommunicate persons.

Phi.

I told you before, S. Iohn saith:* 1.210 If any man bring not this doctrine, salute him not.

Theo.

Did those Tyrants and idolaters that were Prnces whiles S. Iohn liued, bring the doctrine of Christ with them?

Phi.

No: but this is ment of heretikes.

Theo.

It was spoken of all as well impugners, as betraiers of the faith: and why then do you restraine it to heretikes?

Phi.

Christians might eate with Infidels but not with heretikes.* 1.211

Theo.

They might, with those that were ignorant of the faith with purpose no winne them, but not with those that impugned the faith; for that could haue none o∣ther intent but feare or flatterie. And with such S. Paul forbiddeth the chri∣stians all concord, communion and fellowship. Draw not the yoke with in∣fidels. For what fellowship hath righteousnes with vnrighteousnesse? what communion hath light with darknesse? what concord hath Christ with Be∣lial? or what part hath the beleeuer with the infidel? Wherefore come out from among them and separate your selues saith the Lord. Separate your selues from them, is as much as salute them not, or eate not with them: and yet were Christians bound to obey such with all submission if they were Magi∣strates. Againe, they might not eate with adulterers, raylers, drunkards, ex∣torsioners nor with any couetous persons: might they therefore disobey the ma∣gistrate that was spotted with any of these or the like vices?

Phi.

Not, except hee were excommunicated for those vices.

Theo.

Then neither Apostasie nor heresie depriue Princes of their authoritie, but excommu∣nication only, which you may inflict as well for any disorder, as for heresie.

Phi.

What fault finde you with that?* 1.212

Theo.

You make excommunication but a limetwigge to intangle the persons, and indaunger the states of Princes by maintaining rebellion against them vnder the name of religion, when they wil not be ruled as you would haue them, or not suffer their Realmes to ly open to the pray and pride of the Bishop of Rome. For then hee must take vppon him to be the whole church which he is not, & excommunicate them whom hee should not: and after that excommunication denounced, you teach the people to refuse subiection, & to beare armes against their lawfull Magistrates, vppon this pretence that you haue deposed them, and disinherited them of their king∣doms: which is a wicked and false presumption of yours resistant to the lawes of God and man.

* 1.213For graunt hee might excommunicate them, which yet is not proued: the vttermost perill of excommunication before men, is that which our Sauiour expresseth in Sainct Matthewes Gospel. If he neglect to heare the church, let him bee to thee as an Ethnike and a Publicane. But Ethnikes by your confession may not bee depriued of their kingdomes, ergo neither per∣sons excommunicate. Againe your owne lawe graunteth that excommuni∣cation dischargeth neither seruauntes, children nor wiues from the duetie which they owe to the father of the familie: and shall it set free subiectes from a stronger and higher bonde of duetie, which God hath more strait∣ly prescribed, and inioyned them to the father of their Countrie? What wilfull and obstinate blindnesse is this in you, that where excommunica∣tion is a meere spirituall punishment, and reacheth no farther by Gods Lawe, than to take from offenders the remission of their sinnes, by wan∣ting the worde and Sacramentes vntill they repent; you to gratifie the founder of your Rhemish and Romish hospitales, stretch it vnto the states, Crownes, lymmes, and liues of Princes, and deriue thence not onely the de∣posing, but also the murdering of Christian kinges and Queenes, and that by their owne subiectes, if hee saie the worde? And this you assaie to per∣swade by corrupting, and maintaining the Scriptures, bolstering the con∣spiracies, and impieties of your holy father against Princes, with an vnshame∣fast prophaning, and adulterating of the worde of truth: which is not the least of your irreligious attemptes. Resist your places, and shewe vs but one halfe worde out of the holie Scripture that Princes may be iudicially depo∣sed by Priestes, or that you haue authoritie from Christ to punish such as you excommunicate with externall, and temporal paines and losses, which is it that you now would faine inferre: and for the rest, though wee neede not you shall haue our assents.

Phi.

* 1.214Least any man should thinke this power to bee so meerely spirituall, that it might not in any wise be extended to temporall or corporall domage or chastisement of the faithfull in their goods, liues, possessions, or bodies, being meere secular thinges, and therefore not subiect to their Pastours spirituall or Priestly function: it is to bee mar∣ked in the holy Apostles first execution of their commissions & authority,* 1.215 that though their spirituall power immediatly & directly concerneth not our temporall affaires; yet indirectly (and as by accident) it doth not only concerne our soules but our bo∣dies & goods, so farre as is requisite to our soules health, and expedient for the good regiment thereof, and the churches vtility being subiect to their spirituall Gouer∣nours.

Theo.

It is to be marked that if you may be suffered, you will soone chalenge not only spirituall things as your peculiar,* 1.216 but euen the goods, liues, possessions and bodies of the faithfull, and as well of Princes as others to be subiect to your tri∣bunals, if not directly yet indirectly, that is, if not by one means, yet by an other: so far as you thinke it expedient for the regiment & health of the soule, & vtility of the church: & that shall be far enough I dare vndertake; If you affirme this vpon

your own credite, we little esteeme it; your opinion is common, but not currant with vs: If you meane to proue it, you shall haue the longer and stiller audiēce.

Phi.

S. Peter, being but a meere spiritual officer and Pastor of mens soules;* 1.217 yet for sacrilege and simulation, stroke dead both man and wife. S. Paul stroke blind E∣lymas the Magician. So did he threaten to come to his contemners, in rod of disci∣pline. So did be excōmunicate a Principal person in Corinth, for incest: not only by spiri∣tual punishment, but also by bodily vexation, giuing him vp to Satans chastisement. As he corporally also corrected and molested with an euill spirit Himeneus and Alexan∣der for blasphemie and heresie. Finally he boldly auoucheth, that his power in God is to reuenge al disobedience, and to bring vnder all loftie hearts to the loialtie of christ, and of the Apostles and Sainctes in this life.* 1.218 Nescitis (quoth he) quoniam Angelos iudicabimus, quanto magis secularia? knowe you not that wee shall iudge Angels, how much more secular matters?

Theo.

Such dissolute mariners were neuer like but to make such desperate aduentures.* 1.219 You shoulde proue that spirituall Pastours haue power to sease the goods and possessions, and chastise the bodies of such as they excommu∣nicate: and you shewe where God afflicted those for their sinnes, which the Apostles cast out of the Church either with euill spirites. or some corpo∣rall plague, or death, as hee sawe cause; which is not pertinent to your purpose. Can you not distinguish the finger of God, from the factes of men? Or see you no difference between miraculous vengeance from heauen, and iudicial processe on earth? God strake Ananias dead for tempting him in Peter, and Elymas for resisting him in Paul. May Preachers therefore putte out mens eyes, and murther such as beleeue them not? In deede you practise this new kinde of preaching, but not by warrant from Christ or his A∣postles.

Philand.

Did not Peter kill Ananias and Sapphira with his worde?* 1.220

Theo.

And since you can not do the like with your words, you will take helpe of your handes.

Phi.

With wordes or handes, so they bee slaine, all is one.

Theo.

Not so. The one is a miracle wrought by God: the other is a murder committed by man, which God prohibiteth; and of all other thinges ought to bee farthest from the Preachers of peace.

Phi.

Peter did so.

Theo.

Peter reproued them, for tempting the holie Ghost: but the hande of God, and not of Peter, inflicted the punishment. Reade the place: Then saide Peter:* 1.221 Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart that thou shouldest he vnto the holie Ghost? Thou hast not lied vnto men, but vnto God. Nowe when Ananias hearde these words (saith the Scr••p∣ture) hee fell downe and gaue vppe the Ghost. I aske not, what fa••t of Peters you finde that shoulde hasten the death of Ananias: but what one worde purporting any such thing can you shewe vs in all that Peter saide to Ananias?

Phi.

In his wordes to Sapphira wee can. For hee saide to her:* 1.222 The feete of them that haue buried thine husband, are at the doore and shall carrie thee out.

Theo.

Did Peter by these words kill her, or

foretell her that God would doe to her as hee had doone to her husbande?

Phi.

Which say you?

Theo.

Peter, we say, neither desired nor inflicted that iudge∣ment on them, but onely signified what God would doe.

The like we saie for Paul, when Elymas was stroken blind. He warned that Sorcerer what should befall him from God, but himselfe did neither enuie, nor iniurie the Sorcerers eyes. His wordes were, Wilt thou not cease to per∣uert the streight waies of the Lord? Now therefore behold the hand of the Lord is vpon thee;* 1.223 and thou shalt be blind not seeing the Sunne for a time.* 1.224 Paul denounced, Paul imposed not that corporall chastisement on him: The deede was Gods, who may iustly take from his enemies not onely their eies, but their breathes, and spirits when he wil, and in what sort it pleaseth best his righteous, and sacred wisedome.

Phi.

But Paul himselfe,* 1.225 corporallie corrected and molested with an euill spirite Himineus and Alexander for blasphemie and heresie. So did he excommunicate a Principal Person in Corinth for incest, not onely by spiritual punishment, but also by bodilie vexation giuing him vp to Satans chastisement.

Theo.

You drawe the word of God to your fansies by turning doubtes into certaineties, antecedentes into consequentes, mans actions into Gods iudge∣mentes. That the Apostle deliuered Himineus and Alexander vnto Satan, and so the incestuous Corinthian (whom you of your owne head without any wit∣nesse call a Principal Person in Corinth, because the slide you saw was easie from Principall to Princes) is a matter out of question; but that he corporally corrected and molested them with euil spirites, these be your additamentes wherewith you thought to lengthen the text to your own liking.

Phi.

S. Paul gaue iudgement of the Corinthian that he should bee deliue∣red vnto Satan,* 1.226 for the destruction of the flesh. And how could the flesh be de∣stroied without bodily vexation & affliction?

The.

This phrase, for the destru∣ction of the flesh: hath diuerse expositions: & therefore vpon a doubtful kinde of speech you can not build an vndouted conclusion. S. Ambrose expoundeth the place thus. The Apostle decreed, that by the consent & in the presence of all men he should be cast out of the Church. Cum eijcitur, traditur Satanae in in∣teritum carnis. Et anima enim & corpus intereunt. His casting him out of the Church, is the deliuering of him to Satan to the destruction of (the whole man which is nothing but) flesh. For both soule and bodie perish. And lest you shoul•• thinke it much that the soule is called fleshe, he giueth this reason, * 1.227 Victa anima libidine carnis, fit caro: the soule once ouercome by the lustes of the flesh, becommeth flesh: and is in the Scripture so commonly called, * 1.228 & the lusts of the flesh deliuereth the soule defiled with it, and also the body to hell.

Phi.

But S. Paul addeth, that the spirite may bee saued in the day of our Lord Iesus Christ,* 1.229 which can not stand with this exposition, that both fleshe & spirit were deliuered vnto perdition.

Theo.

The same father will tell you that the spirit may be referred not to him that was excluded,* 1.230 but to the rest that

remained in the church, as if S. Paul should haue saide: I haue decreed to cast this vncleane person out from among you to his iust condemnation, that the grace of Gods spirit may be preserued in the rest of you to the day of iudge∣ment. The same Sainct Augustine followeth.* 1.231 What spirite doeth the A∣postle affirme shoulde bee preserued, when he saieth, I haue deliuered that man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, &c. The destruction of the flesh (ment in this place) is, a man addicted to pleasures and fleshly delightes pur∣chaseth hell to himselfe. For by such (sinnes) the whole man becommeth flesh, in so much that the flesh is heere called the soule. Such a man when the church casteth from her, shee keepeth the spirit safe: to wit the holie spirite (of God) which is the guider of the church. For if they suffer any such one to bee amongest them, hee defileth all, and the holie spirite de∣parteth.

Phi.

S. Hierom taketh it otherwise.* 1.232 To deliuer him vnto Satan for the destruction of the flesh (saith he) vt arripiendi illum corporaliter habeat potesta∣tem; that the diuell may haue power corporally to possesse him: & so Saint Chrysostom,* 1.233 For the destruction of the flesh, that the diuell may strike him with some grieuous sore or other disease.

Theo.

This I told you before, was a doubtfull speech, and therefore woulde yeelde you no certaine conclusion. For besides Sainct Augustine and Sainct Ambrose, Sainct Hierom in those bookes which are assuredly his, vseth these wordes, To deliuer vnto Satan to the destruction of the fleshe, for a perpetuall consequent to excommu∣nication in all ages, and not for corporall vexation permitted onely to the Apostles.* 1.234 Illi si peccauero licet tradere me Satanae in interitum carnis, vt spiri∣tus saluus sit. A clergie man (sayth hee) may deliuer mee to Satan, if I sinne, for the destruction of the fleshe, that the spirite may bee safe. And inueighing against Vigilantius,* 1.235 I maruaile, sayth hee, the Bishop vn∣der whome hee is, doeth not crush this vnprofitable vessell with the A∣postolike rodde, euen a rodde of yron, and deliuer him into the destru∣ction of the fleshe, that the spirite may bee safe: Noting by these wordes the right force of excommunication which doeth and shall indure to the ende, & not any corporall punishment or plague, wherewith God sometimes touched such as would not otherwise be reformed.

A thirde interpretation of these wordes you shall finde in Sainct Augu∣stine, writing against Parmenian. What did the Apostle, sayth hee,* 1.236 but prouide for the health of the soule by the destruction of the fleshe, whe∣ther it were by some corporall punishment or death, as in Ananias and his wife, which fell down at Peters feete: or else that the partie by repen∣tance, because he was giuen ouer vnto Satan, should kil in himself the wic∣ked concupiscence of the fleshe. This later exposition cutteth off cleane your bodilie punishmentes, and sheweth the ende of Apostolike excommuni∣cation to be this, that the offendour by repentaunce should destroy the lustes of his flesh, and not that an euill spirit should corporally correct and molest him,

which you conclude out of these wordes, with as great confidence, as if it were some maine principle of faith.

Phi.

S. Augustine repeateth both expositions & disliketh neither.

Theo.

His accepting of both dischargeth your illation which is wholy grounded on the first: But admit that also which Chrysostom seemeth to follow; what shall your conclusion be?

Phi.

That the Apostles punished the bodies of such as were christians.* 1.237

Theo.

Did they lay violent handes on them or vse any externall meanes?

Phi.

They needed not: the diuell did it at their word.

Theo.

And because the diuell will not doe the like for you, you will supplie the di∣uels roome, and intermedle with his office. Are you not wise Diuines that to chalenge the correction of other mens bodies, make your selues the Di∣uels substitutes?

Phi.

Wee make our selues the Apostles substitutes.

Theo.

Then deliuer them to the Diuell as they did, and offer them no farther vi∣olence, nor torment with your owne handes, and see what power you haue to chastise the bodies of such as you reiect from the church, for so did the Apostles. Mary if you content not your selues with speaking the word as they did, but be∣cause the Diuell fayleth you, you take helpe of your handes to punish the bodies of men, beware least you be now not Pauls associats in deliuering, but Satans in tormenting the carkasses of offendors.

Phi.

* 1.238Is euerie one that punisheth the bodie, Satans associate?

Theo.

They that beare the sworde with lawfull power from God to represse the wicked, & if cause require, to kill the bodie, they bee Gods ministers seruing for that intent: but they that without this sworde claime to bee the correctors, and punishers of mens bodies by violent meanes, are the Diuels vicegerentes, and not Gods. For they bee murderers, and the right members of Satan.

Phi.

But wee appoint the Magistrate to doe it.

Theo.

Doe you appoint Magi∣strates to lay violent handes on themselues?

Phi.

No: but on others.

Theo.

And we be disputing of Princes whether they may bee defeated of their crowns and chastised in their bodies vpon your excommunications.

Phi.

Excommunicate persons may bee corporally chastised, whosoeuer bee the deede doer, and that S. Chrysostoms exposition fully proueth. For if it were lawfull then, whiles the Apostles did excommunicate, why not as well after, and in other ages?

Theo.

But if you relent from this that your selues may bee the deed doers, then you misse the marke which you shot at. The Ma∣gistrate wee knowe may corporally punish these and all other offendours, but what is that to your position, which hold that spirituall Pastors may punish the bodies of the faithful? And therfore look to your footing least you faile in your leaping: and backe with this legge that a meere spirituall officer may touch the liues, and take the goods of heretiks, and other excommunicate persons. It is a wicked intrusion of Antichrist, seeking indirectly and, as you call it, by acci∣dent, that is by hooke or by crooke to bring the world and worldly things in sub∣iection to his appetite.

The Apostles did nothing but separate sinners from the church and house of

God:* 1.239 & because in those dayes there were no christian Princes with ordinarie power to reuenge the disorders committed in and against the church of Christ, it pleased God that whom the Apostles and their after-commers for a season cast out of the church as intangled with great and haynous offences, the Diuell shoulde afflict them vnto death, or otherwise with some grieuous disease as the fault deserued, that the rest might feare, and not bee bolde to sinne, because there was no magistrate to punish them: yea many times God visited the sinnes of hypocrites and such as remained in the church in like maner; as Paul himselfe testifieth to those of Corinth.* 1.240 For this cause many amongest you are stroken with infirmities and diseases, and many are dead. For if we would iudge our selues, we should not bee iudged: but when wee are iudged, we are chastened of the Lord, that wee should not bee condemned with the world.* 1.241 And Chrysostom alleadging this place, Many such things fall out (in the church) at this day. Because the priest knoweth them not, that loden with sinne receiue the reuerend mysteries vnworthily, therefore God himselfe of∣ten times culleth them out, and deliuereth them to Satan.

And that the Apostles did nothing but cast them out of the church when they deliuered anie to Satan,* 1.242 the same Father will teach you. Marke howe (Paul) deliuered the man (of Corinth) to Satan. Eijciebatur nempe a com∣muni fidelium caetu; hee was cast out of the congregation of the faythfull, hee was cutte off from the flocke (of Christ) and left naked, and being so destitute (of Gods helpe) hee lay open to the Wolfe, and subiect to euerie assault.* 1.243 So sayth Theodorete. By this place, (where Paul deliuered the in∣cestuous Corinthian to Satan) we are taught that the diuell inuadeth them which are seuered & cut off from the bodie of the church, finding them de∣stitute of Gods grace.

Keepe your selues therefore within your limites. Pastors haue their charge, which is as S. Paul noteth, to watch ouer soules,* 1.244 they haue not to doe with the goods or bodies of the faithfull. Their goods are Caesars, by the plaine re∣solution of our Sauiour. Giue vnto Caesar, the thinges which are Caesars. Which God willed Samuel to aduertise the people of,* 1.245 when they first demaun∣ded a king.* 1.246 Shew them the right (or law) of the king that shall raigne ouer them.* 1.247 And so Samuel did, saying: This shall be the law of your king. He shall take your sonnes and appoint them for his charets and to be his horsemen: & shal make thē captaines ouer thowsandes & captaines ouer fiftyes, & set them to eare his grounds & to reape his haruest, & to make his instruments of war & things to serue for his charets. And he wil take your fields, & vines & best olyues, & giue them to his seruants. And he wil take the tenth of your corn & wine, & giue it to his Princes & seruitors.* 1.248 And he wil take your men seruāts & maideseruants, & the choice of your yong mē, & your asses, & vse thē to his work. The tenth of your sheep wil he take, & ye shal be his seruāts.

Phi.

Make you the king Lord of al without exception?

Theo.

Though God neuer ment, that Princes inordinate & priuate pleasures should wast & consume

the wealth of their Realmes, yet may they iustly commaunde the goods and bodies of all their Subiects in time both of warre and peace, for any pub∣like necessitie or vtilitie. Whereby God declareth Princes and not Pa∣stours to bee the right ouerseers of temporall and earthlie matters: and con∣sequentlie that the power of the keyes extendeth not to those thinges which are committed to the Princes charge, I meane neither to the goods, nor to the bodies of christian men.

To a king, sayth Chrysostom, are the bodies of men committed: to the Priest their soules.* 1.249 The king pardoneth corporall offences, the Priest remitteth the guiltinesse of sinne. The king compelleth, the Priest exhor∣teth: the one with force, the other with aduise: the kings weapons are sen∣sible, the Pri••stes are Ghostly. The like distinction betweene them doth S. Hierom make:* 1.250 Rex nolentibus praest, Episcopus volentibus: ille timore subijcit, hic seruituti donatur: ille corpora custodit ad mortem, hic animas seruat ad vitam. The king ruleth men vnwilling: the Priest none, saue the willing: the king hath his in subiection with terrour: the Priest is appointed for the seruice of his: the king mastereth their bodies with death, but the Priest preserueth their soules to life. This power of the sword, our Sauiour precisely prohibi∣ted his Apostles as I haue shewed: and therefore you may not indirectly nor by accident chalenge it.

Phi.

* 1.251Why then did Paul saie: Knowe you not that wee shall iudge the Angels, howe much more secular matters?

Theo.

If this bee the best hold you haue in the new Testament for secular matters: you must take the paynes to light from your horse and goe on your feete as well as your neighbours. For the Apostle speaketh that of all Christians which you restraine to Priests; and moueth the parties striuing, rather to make their brethren arbiters of their quarrelles, than to persue one an other before Infidels. What grant is this to you in your owne right to bee iudges ouer your brethren in all secular affaires, and not onely without their consents to determine their griefes, but also to bereaue them of their goods, and lands, and afflict their bodies: yea to pull the sword out of Princes handes, & take their Crownes from their heades; when the rulers are beleeuers as well as the Preachers? Do you not know, saith S. Paul,* 1.252 that the Saincts, & not onely Priests, shal iudge the world? If the world then shalbe iudged by you (speaking to all that were of the church at Corinth) are ye vnworthy to iudge the smalest matters? He saith not, it was their right to iudge secular matters, but they were worthy to bee trusted with them, whom God would trust with greater: and shewing that hee spake this of the people, & not of the Priests, he saith: If then you haue any iudgementes concerning the thinges of this life,* 1.253 make euen the contemptible in the church your iudges. Hee saith not God hath made them your iudges: but rather thā your contending & brabling about earthly things which you professe to contemn, should be knowen to Ethniks, & such as hate & deride both Christ & you, your selues make the meanest of your brethren (whom you will)

your iudges. Nowe ioyne your conclusion: ergo the Pope hath authority to dispose the goods, lands and liues of all the faith••ul, euen of Princes thēselues, be they neuer so iust or religious Magistrates; and see what a non sequitur you conclude out of S. Pauls wordes.

Phi.

The Primatiue church vnderstood this place of Priests and Bishops: as appeareth by Sainct Augustine complaining of the tumultuous perplexi∣ties of other mens causes in secular matters:* 1.254 to the which troubles, sayth he, the Apostle hath fastened vs. 1. Corinth. 5. The like hee witnesseth of S. * 1.255 Ambrose at Millan. And S. Gregory reporteth the same of * 1.256 himselfe at Rome.

Theo.

Trueth it is, the Bishoppes of the Primatiue church were greatly troubled with those matters; not as ordinarie iudges of those causes, but as arbiters elected by the consent of both parties. And I coulde requite you with Gregories owne wordes of the same matter in the same place: * 1.257 Quod certum est nos non debere, which it is certaine we ought not to do, but yet I thinke, so long as it did not hinder their vocation & function, though it were troublesome vnto them, they might neither in charitie, nor in dutie refuse it because it tended to the preseruing of peace & loue amongest mē. And the Apo∣stle had licenced all men to choose whom they woulde in the church for their iudges: no doubt meaning that they which were chosen shoulde take the paynes to heare the cause and make an ende of the strife. But it is one thing to make peace between brethren, as they did, by heaping their griefes with consent of both sides, and an other thing to claime a iudiciall in∣terest in those causes, in spite of mens heartes. Which wrong you shoulde not offer the least of your brethren: much lesse may you depriue Princes of their Crownes and take their Scepters from them, because the Apostle willed the christians to be tried rather by their brethrē, than by their enemies, which were Infidels.

Phi.

In all which there is no difference betwixt kinges that bee faithfull,* 1.258 and o∣ther Christian men: who all in that they haue submitted themselues and their Sce∣pters to the sweete yoke of Christ, are subiect to discipline and to their Pastors au∣thority no lesse than other sheepe of his fold.

Theo.

In beleeuing the word, receiuing the Sacraments, and obeying the Lawes of God, there is no difference betweene the Ruler and the Subiect; but the temporall states and possessions of priuate men you may not meddle with, by no color of ecclesiastical power or discipline: much lesse may you touch the bodies, or take the Crownes of Princes into your handes by your acciden∣tall & indirect authoritie: which is nothing else but a sillie shift of yours to crosse the commaundements of God.* 1.259

Phi.

Though the state, regiment, policie and power temporall, be in it selfe alwaies of distinct nature, qualitie and condition from the gouernment ecclesiasticall, and spi∣rituall common wealth called the church or bodie mysticall of Christ; and the Magi∣strate spirituall and ciuill diuerse and distinct; and sometimes so farre that the one hath no dependance of the other, nor subalteration to the other in respect of them∣selues:

(as it is in the Churches of God residing in heathen kingdoms, and was in the Apostles times vnder the Pagan Emperours): yet now where the lawes of Christ are receiued, and the bodies politike and mysticall, the Church and ciuill state, the M••gistrate Ecclesiasticall and Temporall, concurre in their kinds togither; (though euer of distinct regimentes, natures and endes) there is such a concurrence and sub∣alternation betwixt both, that the inferiour of the two (which is the ciuill state) must needs (in matters pertayning any way either directly or indirectly to the honor of God and benefit of the soule) be subiect to the spirituall, and take direction from the same.

Theo.

This is tossing of termes, as men doe tenez-balles to make pastime with. The state, regiment, policie and power temporall, is in it selfe, you saie, alwaies of distinct nature, qualitie, and condition from the gouernment ecclesiasticall and spirituall Common-wealth, called the Church or bodie mysticall of Christ. You seeke to confound that which you would seeme to distinguish, and when you haue spent much breath to no ende, you conclude, that though the church and the Common-wealth be distinct states, as you can not denie, yet you will rule both:* 1.260 by reason the Common-wealth, as the inferiour of the two, dependeth on the Church, and hath subalternation to the church as to the superiour. But, Sir, in plaine termes: and more trueth, to the Sonne of God ruling in his Church by the might of his worde and spirite, all kingdomes and Princes must be subiect, their swordes, Scep∣ters, soules and bodies: mary to the Pope, attyring himselfe with the spoiles of Christ and his church, no such thing is due.

The watch-men and sheepeheardes that serue Christ in his church, haue their kinde of regiment distinct from the temporall power and state:* 1.261 but that regiment of theirs is by counsell and perswasion, not by terrour or com∣pulsion, and reacheth neither to the goods nor to the bodies of any men; much lesse to the crownes and liues of Princes: and therefore your shifting of wordes, and shrinking from the Popes Consistorie to the Church, the spiri∣tuall Common wealth, the mysticall bodie of Christ, and such like houering and vncertaine speaches, is but a trade that you haue gotten to make the Reader beleeue wee derogate from Christ, and would haue Princes superiours to the worde and Sacramentes, which Christ hath left to gather and gouerne the church withall. Howbeit this course is so common with you, that now it doth but shame you.

A christian king must take direction not from the Popes person or pleasure, but from the Lawes and commaundementes of Christ;* 1.262 to whome alone hee oweth subiection: And as for the Bishoppes and Pastours of his Realme, (whome you falsly call the spirituall Common-wealth and the mysticall bodie of Christ, because they bee but partes thereof, and not so much, except withall they bee teachers of truth) those he must and should consult,, in respect they be Gods messengers sent to him and his people, but with great care to trie them, and free libertie to refuse them, if they be found not faithfull. And when the

Prince learning by their instruction what is acceptable to God in doctrine and discipline, shall receiue and publish the same, the Bishoppes themselues are bounde to obey, and if they will not, the Magistrate may lawfully see the rigour of his lawes executed vpon them. On the other side, if the Prince wil not submit himselfe to the rules and preceptes of Christ, but wilfully main∣taine heresie and open impietie, the Bishops are without flatterie to reproue and admonish the Prince of the daunger that is imminent from God: and if he persist, they must cease to communicate with him in diuine prayers and myste∣ries: but still they must serue him, honour him, and pray for him, teaching the people to doe the like, and with meekenesse induring what the wrath of the Prince shal lay on them, without annoying his person, resisting his power, dis∣charging his subiectes, or remouing him from his throne, which is your maner of censuring Princes.

Phi.

The ciuill Gouernour is SVBIECT to the spirituall amongest christians.

Theo.

I haue often tolde you howe. The ciuill Gouernour must heare, be∣leeue, and obey the meanest seruaunt that God sendeth, if hee speake no more than his Masters will. That subiection Princes owe to the sender, and not to the speaker. But were they simplie subiect to the messengers of God, as they are not, will you reason thus: Princes should obey the Preachers of God: ergo if they doe not, they may bee deposed? This is the argument which wee so of∣ten haue denied; why then labour you so much about the antecedent, when we denie the consequent?

That Princes shoulde obey God and his worde,* 1.263 is a clearer case, than that they shoulde obey the Pope. For of that no man doubteth, and this wee not onely doubt, but denie. Take therefore that which is con∣fessed on both sides, and set your conclusion to it, that the force of your rea∣son may the better appeare. Princes without all question are bounde to obey God: ergo if they doe not their dueties to God they may be deposed by Priestes. This is the sequele which we alwaies denied: and this is the point which you first assumed to proue.

Phi.

The condition of these two powers (as S. Gregorie Nazianzen most ex∣cellently res••mbleth it) is like vnto the distinct state of the same spirit and body, or flesh in a man: where either of them hauing their proper and peculiar operations, endes and obiectes, which in other natures may be seuered: (as in Brutes, where flesh is & not spirit: in Angels, where spirit is but not flesh:) are yet in man conioyned in per∣son; and neuerthelesse so distinct in faculties and operations; that the flesh hath her actions peculiar, and the soule hers; but not without all subalteration or depen∣daunce. Where we see euidently, that in case the operations of the bodie be contrarie to the ende, weale and iust desires of the soule; the spirite may and must commaunde, ouerrule and chastice the bodie: and as superiour appointeth fasting and other a••fli∣ctions, though with some detriment to the flesh commaunding the eyes not to see, the tongue not to speake; and so foorth. So likewise; the power politicall, hath her Prin∣ces, Lawes, Tribunalles; and the spiritual her Prelats, Canons, Councels, iudgements

(and these when the Princes are Pagans) wholy separate, but in christian Com∣mon-wealthes ioyned, though not confounded; nor yet the spirituall turned into the temporall, or subiect by peruerse order (as it is now in England) to the same; but the ciuil (which in deede is the inferiour) subordinate, and in some cases subiect to the ecclesiasticall: though so long as the temporall State is no hinderaunce to eternall feli∣citie, and the glorie of Christs kingdome, the other intermedleth not with her acti∣ons; but alloweth, defendeth, honoureth, and in particular Common-wealthes o∣beyeth the same.

Theo.

For you to flie soaring about with comparisons and applications of your owne making is to small purpose: Similitudes haue no force farther than the Author, that first vsed them, doth direct them and vrge them.

* 1.264S. Gregorie Bishop of Nazianzun hauing occasion in a Sermon that hee made before the Emperour, to intreate the Prince to pardon a fault commit∣ted by the people, after hee had taught the subiectes their duetie to the Magi∣strate, turned his speech to the Prince with these wordes amongest other: Will you admit then my free speech?* 1.265 The law of Christ hath committed (or sub∣iected) you to my power and to my pulpit: for we rule also, and that which is a more excellent and perfect regiment. Or should the spirit (in perfection and excellencie) giue place to the flesh, and heauenly thinges to earthly? You will I know take my freedom of speech in good part. You are a sheepe of my fould, & a (lambe or) weanling of the great sheepheardes. Nazian∣zene maketh not your comparison, that the Priest hath the same power ouer the prince, which the soule hath ouer the body: It is your owne, it is not his: hee calleth the things which are committed to the Preachers charge, spirituall and heauenly: and consequently more excellent and perfect than the bodilie & earth∣ly things which Princes haue in their power: farther he vrgeth not this com∣parison, and this we confesse to be most true.

Phi.

* 1.266But S. Gregorie sayth to the Emperour: The law of Christ hath subiected you to my power, and to my Tribunall.

Theo.

I might re∣fuse that translation: the wordes are, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, doeth signifie not onely to subiect, but also to commit as a pledge to bee kept by an other man: and in that respect I might well defende this to bee the right interpretation of S. Gregories wordes, The lawe of Christ hath committed you to my charge: but because the worde hath both significations I receiue either, and affirme neither to make for your corporall correcting of Princes. Sainct Gregorie doeth plainely lay foorth his owne meaning,* 1.267 first by the finall intent, for the which hee vsed all this preface, next by the rest of the wordes which he addeth to expounde and expresse his minde.

His requeste to the Emperour was 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, to beare with the bouldnesse of his speeche, in making requeste for his brethren. And to shewe the Emperour that heerein hee didde no more than Christ hadde licenced euerie Preacher to doe, hee bringeth this reason. The

Lawe of Christ hath bounde Princes, bee they neuer so great to heare the Preacher, and to submit them-selues to this place, where I stand: which was the pulpitte and not the Consistorie. For 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 in the Church did precisely signifie the place where the Preacher stoode when he taught. And to that ende hee addeth,* 1.268 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 You are a sheepe of my flocke: that is sacred and so are you, and a wean∣ling of the great sheepheards: and therefore bound to heare my voyce, whom the great shepheard hath charged with the feeding of his flocke. And so he pro∣ceedeth very fatherly and pithily not to commaund or require, but to perswade and intreat the Prince to be gratious to his subiects and to imitate the example of God the greatest and mightiest Prince that is.

These be Christian directions, and lawfull meanes to put Princes in minde of their dueties: which we allow and receiue. Your deposing them, and arming their subiects vnder a colour of your Episcopall authoritie to rebel against thē, and to take their scepters from them, was farre from Nazianzenes mynde and mouth: you doe but abuse his eloquent similitudes to beautifie your pestilent conspiracies: and that you may see by the very wordes following, where he saith to the Emperour,* 1.269 Thou raignest together with Christ, thou rulest together with him; thy sword is from him, thou art the image of God: Hee that con∣fessed the Prince to hold his sworde from Christ and with Christ, neuer cra∣ked as you conceiue, that hee had power to take the Princes sword from him: yea rather hee acknowledged himselfe amongst the rest to bee subiect to the Prince, though he were a Bishoppe. Let vs sayth he submit our selues to God,* 1.270 to eche other, and to the Rulers of the earth. To God in all thinges, eche to other in brotherly loue, to Princes for the conseruation of good order. For this is one of the Lawes amongs vs (that be Christians) and the same prayse worthie and most excellently ordered by the holy Ghost, that as seruaunts obey their masters,* 1.271 and women their husbands, and the Church Christ, and the Disciples their Pastors and Teachers, so wee should bee subiect to all superiour Powers, not onely for feare of wrath, but also for consci∣ence sake.

Phi.

You will not denie but S. Gregorie sayth, Wee haue * 1.272 a greater and perfecter regiment than yours, speaking euen to the Prince himselfe.

Theo.

So Preachers haue. They gouerne the soules of men and dispence the myste∣ries of God, where as Princes are set to rule the bodies of their subiects, and to dispose the things of this life. And therefore if the fruites and effects of their callings be compared, the Preachers passeth the Princes by many degrees of perfection and excellencie: God giuing earthly foode and peace by the prince, but heauenly grace and life by the woorde and sacraments which wee receiue from the mouthes and handes of his messengers. Mary if you compare their persons or powers to commaunde and compell by corporall punishments,* 1.273 of which wee dispute: Preachers are seruants to their brethren, Princes are Lordes ouer them: Preachers may reprooue and threaten, Princes may

sease the goods, and chastise the bodies of such as offende: Preachers may shut the gates of heauen against non-repentants, Princes may roote them from the face of the earth, and let them feele the iust vengeaunce of their sinnes in this worlde. This is the power of Princes which wee say must bee directed by Bi∣shoppes, but is not subiected to their willes or Tribunals; and though the Preachers charge concerne thinges which bee more perfect and excellent, yet that is no reason why Bishoppes should corporally correct or depose Princes, no more than if Philosophers or schoolemasters shoulde take vpon them to doe the like, because they professe to trayne vp others in wisedome and ver∣tue, which farre exceede the feeding or clothing of the bodie; which seeme to bee the Princes care.

And yet may you not rashly exclude the Princes function from caring for religion and vertue: It is euident that God first ordained and authorized the sworde to punish error and vice,* 1.274 and to maintaine trueth and integritie a∣mongst men: and therefore the Princes and the Preachers functions by Gods institution shoulde concurre euen in those Ghostly and heauenly thinges, which you would chalenge to your selues, the Preacher declaring, the Prince esta∣blishing the word of trueth; the Preacher deliuering, the Prince defending the Sacraments of grace; the Preacher reproouing, the Prince punishing the sinnes and offences of all Degrees and States. Howbeit wee must confesse the Preachers seruice in these cases excelleth the Princes; for that the woorde in the Preachers mouth engendreth faith and winneth the soule vnto God to serue him with a willing mind: whereas the sword in the Princes hand striketh onely a terror into men to refraine the outwarde act, but refourmeth not the se∣crets of the heart.

Phi.

* 1.275When the temporall power resisteth God or hindereth the proceeding of the people to saluation; there the spirituall hath right to correct the temporall, and to procure by all meanes possible, that the terrene kingdome giue no annoyance to the state of the Church.

Theo.

What you want in proofes, you make out in woordes. Wee haue heard you I know not how often full solemnly affirme that the Spiritual power hath right to correct the temporal, whereby you meane that the Pope may depose the Prince: but as yet we see you not prooue it. Your exquisite and affected vtte∣rance which is the chiefest furniture of your booke, and the best support of your cause, can not turne hard into soft, nor sower into sweete: men must haue some better euidence for the depriuation of Princes before they beleeue it, than your meretricious and deintie speach.

* 1.276Pastours are, you say, to procure by all meanes possible, that the terrene kingdome giue no annoyance to the state of the Church: you shoulde haue ad∣ded by all meanes possible and lawful: for by periurie, rebellion, and slaughter of Princes, though it bee possible, yet is it not lawfull to procure the welfare of Christes Church. If you receiue that addition, and auouche it lawfull for Bishoppes to depese Princes, you runne to the point which wee first be∣ganne

with, absurdly presuming and neuer proouing the thing which is called in question.

Phi.

The Church excelleth the terrene state and Domination as farre as the Sunne passeth the Moone,* 1.277 the soule the bodie, and heauen the earth. By reason of which excellencie and preeminence aboue all states and men, without exception of Prince or other, our Lorde proclaimeth in his Gospel:* 1.278 that whosoeuer obeyeth not or heareth not the Church, must bee taken and vsed no otherwise than as an heathen.

Theo.

You must needes bee cunning in counting howe many degrees a Priest excelleth a Prince.* 1.279 Innocentius the third, twelue hundred yeeres after Christ beganne this comparison and proueth it out of the Scripture full like a Pope. Thou shouldest haue knowen, sayth hee to the Emperour, that GOD made two great lights in the firmament of heauen, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. Whereby is meant, that GOD made two great lightes, that is, two great dignities which are the Priest and the Prince, for the firmament of heauen, that is of his vniuersall Church. But that which ruleth the day to witte spirituall thinges is the greater, that which ruleth carnall thinges is the lesser, that wee should acknowledge as great difference to bee betweene Bishops and Princes, as there is betweene the sunne and the moone.

Your gloze setteth downe and casteth by plaine Arythmetike howe much that amounteth to.* 1.280 Therefore, sayth hee, since the earth is seuen tymes big∣ger than the Moone, and the Sunne eyght tymes bigger than the earth, it resteth that the Bishoppe bee fourtie seuen tymes greater than the Prince. And yet aduising himselfe better for that his totall summe rose no faster, hee sheweth out of Ptolomie that the sunne contayneth the bignes of the moone, seuen thousande, seuen hundred, fourtie foure tymes, and so many degrees iumpe is euery Bishoppe aboue euery Prince. These pa∣ringes and offscouringes of your Decretals you haue swept together, and vsing the name of the Church to make the matter more saleable, though by the Church you vnderstande as they did, the Bishoppe of Rome and his Colledge of Cardinals, you perfume their follies with a fewe words of your owne, and newe proclaime them for some precious wares: but take backe the filth and slime of your vnlearned and ill aduised Cano∣nistes, wee looke for grauer and better authorities than either your, or their flatteries.

Phi.

Whosoeuer obeyeth not or heareth not the Church, must bee taken and v∣sed no otherwise than as an heathen.

Theo.

I coulde answere you that this place toucheth onely wronges and iniuries done by men to their brethren,* 1.281 when as yet there were no Christi∣an Princes. And that in these woordes our Sauiour charged his Disciples not to breake the bonde of peace and vnitie with any bro∣ther that offered wrong, vntill they had first secretly warned them,

then with witnesses, and last of all publikely before the whole multitude of the faithfull where hee and they liued: and if after so many lawfull warnings hee ceased not to afflict and vexe his brother, the partie grieued should no farther be bound to communicate with him in brotherly loue and charitie, no more than hee was with an Ethnike or a Publicane.

* 1.282S. Ambrose giueth this note vpon the wordes, In te, Against thee; Pulchrè posuit, si peccauerit in te. Non enim aequa conditio in deum hominemque peccare. The Lorde very well added, if hee sinne against thee: for the same rule doeth not serue when hee sinneth against God, that doeth when hee trespasseth man. Saint Hierom likewise,* 1.283 If our brother sinne against vs, and in any thing doe vs wrong, wee haue power to forgiue it, yea wee must forgiue it: but if a man sinne against God, the matter is out of our handes. Lest therefore in priuate quarrels and offences men should at their listes forsake the communion and felowshippe of their brethren, our Sauiour will haue three admonitions and the last publike, after the which, if that take not place, we shalbe excused before God, if we no longer accept him that did vs wrong in the number of our brethren.

* 1.284Let him be to thee as an Ethnike and a Publicane, that is sayth S. Augu∣stine, Noli illum deputare iam in numero fratrum tuorum, nec ideo tamen salus eius negligenda: Do not accompt him in the number of thy brethren, and yet his saluation must not bee neglected. For the Ethnikes themselues, that is hea∣then men and Pagans, wee doe not recken to bee our brethren, and yet we seeke to saue them. By this you may doe well to erect a Court where euery subiect may sewe his Prince for priuate iniuries, and to make your selues Iudges of all such matters, that if the Prince refuse your order you may take his Crowne from him. Is not this thinke you good diuinitie for a Christian Common-wealth?

Phi.

If hee, that will not heare the Church in priuate offences betweene man and man, must bee taken and vsed as an heathen, how much more he that will not heare nor obey the Church in publike and haynous sinnes against God?

Theo.

Take the place howe you will of priuate, or publike iniuries, or sinnes against man,* 1.285 or against God, no such thing is consequent as you would seeme to inferre. If hee heare not the Church, whosoeuer, whensoeuer, in what cause soeuer (graunt all this that your antecedent may bee the freer from checke or chaunce,) what will you conclude?

Phi.

He must bee to vs as an heathen.

Theo.

And what then? must heathen Princes bee depriued of their Crownes and Scepters? Was not Caesar an heathen when our Sauiour willed all men to giue to Caesar the thinges which were Caesars? Was hee not an hea∣then Magistrate before whome Christ stoode when hee sayde, Thou couldest haue no power ouer mee vnlesse it were giuen thee from a∣boue? Were they not heathen Princes to whome Peter and Paul requi∣red and charged all Christian Princes to bee subiect without all resistance? Did not the Church of Christ, taught by them so to doe, submit her selfe

for the space of three hundered yeeres to heathen Princes and those terrible and most bloudie tyrants.

Phi.

We deny not this.

Theo.

You can not. If then disobayers of the Church must be vsed no worse than heathens and publi∣canes, ergo they must neither bee spoiled of their goodes, nor afflicted in their bodies, nor remoued from their seates, if they be Princes. For these things by Gods Law the Church might not offer to Pagans nor Publicans.

Phi.

This that Christ saith, if he heare not the Church, let him be to thee as an Ethnicke, and a Publicane, is (by the iudgement of S. Augustine) more grieuous than if he were slaine with the sword, consumed with fier, or torne with wilde beastes.

Theo.

And why? because the iudgement of God,* 1.286 to the which he is reserued, shall bee more heauie to him, than any humane torments can be. And this maketh rather against you, than with you. For if the neglecter of the Church shal be so grieuously punished at Gods hands, why doe you challenge to your selues the corporal correcting and chastising of such as disobay the Church? And so Saint Augustine expoundeth himselfe. It is by and by added, saith he, by our Sauiour, Amen I say vnto you: What you bind on earth shall bee bound in heauen, that we should vnderstand how grieuous a punishment it is to bee left vnpunished by man, and to be re∣serued to the iudgement of God.

Phi.

The Church hath decreed that heretikes shall not beare rule ouer Catholikes: and this voice of the Church all men are bound to heare, vnlesse they will be counted for Pagans and Infidels.

Theo.

First the Church can make no such decree: next the Church of Christ neuer made any such Decree.

Phi.

May not the Church make that Decree?* 1.287

Theo.

Shee may not. Her power concerneth the soules of men and not their bodies, and neuer goeth be∣yond the word and Sacraments. Shee may not intermeddle with the tem∣poral states and inheritances of Priuate men against their willes, much lesse with the thrones and swords of Princes.

The Church cannot giue leaue, that children shall disobay their Parents, nor seruants their Masters, nor weomen their husbandes: because God hath already commanded they shall obay:* 1.288 whose precepts the Church is with al re∣uerence to receiue, and with all diligence to obserue, and not to frustrate or hinder the least iote of his heauenly will and Testament: If any particular places, or persons attempt the contrarie, they cease to be the Church of GOD in that they wilfully reiect and change the worde of God. S. Augustine saith well,* 1.289 Non debet ecclesia se Christo praeponere: The Church may not preferre her selfe before Christ. Neither may we beleeue the (true Churches) them selues vnlesse they say and doe those things that are consonant to the Scrip∣tures. Yea we must* 1.290 accurse the Angels in heauen if they should do otherwise. The whole Church oweth the same dutie to all and euery the precepts of God that ech priuate person doth. And therfore shee may not dissolue nor disappoint the least of them. Now the Church her selfe is commanded by the mouth of Christ and his Apostles to honor and obay Princes. For these precepts be gene∣ral

& touch y^e whole church:* 1.291 Giue to Caesar the things that be Caesars. * 1.292 Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers. * 1.293 Submit your selues to the king as the chiefest. For so is the will of God; neither Monke, Priest, Prelate, Pope, Euangelist, or Apostle exempted as in the place where I haue already shewed. Ergo shee hath no right to dishonour or depose Princes, nor to licence their subiects to resist them at her will and on her warrant, which is the grounde that you build on.

Phi.

* 1.294They be but flatterers of Princes that so say: or heretikes that so thinke that the ministers of Christes most deare spouse, of his very mysticall bodie, his kingdome & house on earth (whom at his d••parture hence, he did indowe with most ample commissiō, and sent foorth with that authoritie, that his father before gaue vnto him) haue no power ouer Princes, to denounce or declare them to be violators of Gods and the Churches Lawes: nor to punish them either spiritually or temporally: not to excommu∣nicate them, nor to discharge the people of their oth and obedience towards such, as nei∣ther by Gods Law nor mans, a true Christian may obay.

Theo.

If we knewe not your accustomed brauerie, you might somwhat trouble vs with your insolent vanities: but now we haue so good experience of your fierce lookes and faint harts, that we neede not feare your force. Bring somwhat besides your own conceit that the Pope may depose Princes, and then call vs flatterers and heretikes at your pleasure. If not, take heede you proue not presumpteous and stately rebels against God and man.

I winne you be the ministers of Christs spouse and kingdom, no more than his Apostles were,* 1.295 if so much: and your commission is no larger than theirs, if it be so large: and yet the Apostles themselues had no power to depose Princes, but submitted their bodies and liues to the powers which God had ordained, and taught (Christes most deare spouse & his very bodie mystical) to do the like, and shee did so, not offering any example of resisting and deposing Princes for a thousand yeres, after shee first receiued at her husbands mouth a charge to ho∣nour them and in earthly things to obay them.

* 1.296As for your Episcopall power ouer Princes, if that be it you seeke for, and not to take their kingdomes from them, I tolde you before, if they breake the Law of God, you may reproue them; if they heare you not, you may leaue them in their sinnes and shut heauen against them: if they fall to open heresie or wilfull impietie, you may refuse to communicate with them in prayers and other diuine duties, yea you must rather yeeld your liues with submission into their hands, than deliuer them the word and sacraments otherwise than God hath appointed: farther than this if you will go to the temporall punishing and finall displacing of them from their thrones (and to the discharging of the people from the oth and obedience towards such Princes) which is the right intent of your Romish censures, as your owne woordes import, though your cause were neuer so good, as yours is starke naught, you then turne religion into rebellion, patience into violence, wordes into weapons, preaching into fighting, fidelitie into periurie, subiection into sedition, and in steede

of the seruantes of GOD, which you might bee by enduring, you be∣come the Souldiers of Satan by resisting the powers which GOD hath ordayned.

Phi.

Your threates were somewhat, if the Church had not first deposed them.

Theo.

Pull not out your owne eyes with your owne handes. The Church hath no such Commission from Christ. Shee can not dis∣charge smaller dueties, as of children to their Parents, and wiues to their husbandes: much lesse greater, as subiection, othe, and loyaltie to Prin∣ces. Say if you dare that the Preceptes of subiection and submission vn∣to Princes in the sacred Scriptures doe not binde Bishoppes as well as others.* 1.297 If they doe, then marke what mockeries you make of the woorde of God. * 1.298 Let euery soule (and therefore euery Bishoppe) bee subiect to the higher Powers, that you will haue to stande vntill the Bishoppes de∣pose them, and take their power from them. * 1.299 You must bee subiect, the Bishoppes you meane as long as they list. For if they like not their Prince, by your Doctrine they may displace him. * 1.300Submit your selues to the king as excelling (all others:) but you will bee sure to excell him, and when you see your time to make him the meanest amongest the people. * 1.301 Giue vnto Caesar the thinges that bee Caesars, but if Caesar anger you, you take from him goods, Landes, Scepter, sworde, life and all. O worthie interpre∣ters of Gods heauenly will! A fewe such glozes will helpe Christ himselfe out of his kingdome, such cunning you haue to defeate the commaunde∣mentes of the holy Ghost, and to spoyle innocent and Christian Princes of their Crownes, when you lyst to displace them.

Phi.

They bee your foolish additions, and not ours.

Theo.

Auoyde the textes which wee bring without these or the like constructions, and take the whole cause for your labour. Well you may florish with the name of the Church, where I say, the Bishoppes; and require some causes be∣fore Princes shoulde bee deposed,* 1.302 which I referre to the discretion of the deposer: but in effect your answeres must bee as I report them. For what if the Pope offer open wrong to Princes of his owne Religion, as hee did to Philippe the Faire, King of Fraunce, to Frederike the second Germane Emperour, and to many others? Who shall reuerse his definitiue sentence by your doctrine, but himselfe, that either for shame may not, or for pride will not relent from his error?

Phi.

Therefore wee referre the right of deposing Princes to the Church because wee woulde bee sure to (haue it done by Lawe, order, and iudgement.)

Theo.

And that solemne pro∣ces of Lawe, order and iudgement in your Church, which you crake of, when all is done, is nothing els but the Popes pleasure: for hee will bee tied nei∣ther to Councell, nor Canon, farther than standeth with his liking; his Decrees be Canons, and a reason of his fact may no man aske him by your Lawes, and therefore Princes haue a warme sute to depend on such Lawes, or∣ders, and iudgements.

As for the Church of Christ she neuer tooke any such thing vpon her, neither did shee euer make any Decree that Prelats might depose Princes. She endu∣red as well heretikes and Apostataes, as Pagans and persecutours, many hundred yeeres to the glorious triall of her fayth, and eternall reward of her patience. Onely Gregorie the 7. Bishop of Rome more than a thousande yeres after Christ, in the heighth of his pride and furie, gaue the first onset to depose his Lord and master, and others after him were easily led to followe his exam∣ple: but to this day neuer christian king, nor Realme acknowledged or obey∣ed that power in the Pope, which yet he doth wickedly chalenge, as you do wil∣fully defend.

Phi.

* 1.303It may please the gentle readers to enforme their consciences partly by that is sayde before, and specially by that which followeth. Where they shall finde that streight vppon the first conuersion of kinges to the faith, as the good and godly haue e∣uer obeyed the Church, and submitted themselues to ecclesiasticall censures and discipline: so the euill and obstinate could neuer orderly discharge themselues from the same, without euident note of iniustice, tyrannie, and irreligiositie; and were ei∣ther in fine brought to order & penance, or else to confusion both temporal and eternal.

Theo.

Hee must be very gentle that will enforme his conscience with your bare surmises; other enformations you giue none. That which is said before, is to small purpose, that which followeth is to smaller. Neuer good, nor god∣ly king obeyed the Popes sentence of deposition, and besides the Pope, neuer Church, Councell, nor Pastour offered any such wrong to Christian or hea∣then Princes.

* 1.304What you call orderly discharging of themselues, I knowe not; the wisest and worthiest Princes that those dayes bred, neither dissenting in fayth from the Bishop of Rome, nor then doubting of his Pastoral headship ouer the Church, (such was the blindnes of their times:) yet openly despised and vtterly resisted, his arrogant censures in depriuing Princes: and howsoeuer by warres, conspi∣racies and treasons hee tyred some of them, (God giuing Princes for the neg∣lect of his trueth and number of their sinnes, into the handes and power of Antichrist) yet others bridled and kirbed your holy father himself in such sort that he had small ioy of his enterprise.

* 1.305Of their eternall confusion, neither you nor I be fit iudges: wee must leaue that to the sonne of God: howbeit I see no cause but the Pope is in farre more daunger before God for his impious abusing the keyes to warrant periurie, se∣dition, murder and treason against Magistrates, than any Prince can bee for the necessarie defending of his person and Realme, against such violence. The keyes are to bee feared if they be rightly vsed; but if you wrenche them to serue your rages, you bind your selues, not others, whom your vngodly dealings can not hurt. Your owne Lawe sayth, Apud deum & eius ecclesiam neminem graua∣re potest iniqua sententia.* 1.306 With God & his Church, an vniust sentence can bur∣den no man: & rash iudgement, saith S. Augustine, hurteth him that iudgeth rashly.

Phi.

About 13. hundered yeres agoe Babylas Bishop of Antioch excommunica∣ted the only Christian King or Emperour that then was (as some count Numerius, as others Philippe) for executing a Prince,* 1.307 that was put to him, for an hostage. Whereupon, as euill Kings sometimes doe, he martyred his Bishoppe; whom S. Chryso∣stome & others reckon for the most famous martyr of that time: because he gaue by his constancie and courage is God, a notable example to all Bishops of their behaui∣our towardes their Princes; and how they ought to vse the Ecclesiasticall rodde of correction towardes them, whatsoeuer befall to their persons for the same.

After the said Prince had murthered his owne Pastor;* 1.308 then holie Pope Fabian for that he was the general sheepheard of Christendome (or as some thinke Fabian the successour of Babylas) pursued the said Emperour by like excommunication, and other meanes, till at length hee brought him to order and repentance.

Afterward Saint Ambrose Bishop of Millan excommunicated the elder The∣odosius the Emperour;* 1.309 put him to publike penance among the rest of the people; commaunded him to put off his Kingly robes; to leaue his Emperiall throne in the Chauncel, and to keepe his place among the Laitte: and prescribed him after eight monethes penance, to make a temporall Law for prouiso, against the occasi∣ons of such crimes as the saide Emperour had committed, and for which he was excommunicated.

This was an other world than we now are in:* 1.310 marueilous courage and zeale in Bishops for Gods cause: much humilitie and obedience in Princes. Then was there no flatterer so shamefull, nor heretique on earth so impudent as to make the temporal King aboue all correction of Gods Church and their owne Pastours: nothing being more common in the histories of all ages than that Princes haue receiued discipline.

As when Anastasius the Emperour was excommunicated by Symmachus, Lo∣tharius, and Micheal Emperours, by Nicolas the first, and particular Princes by their prouinciall Bishops:* 1.311 as we see in the records of all Nations. Therefore we will stand only vpon more famous and auncient examples.

Innocentius the first,* 1.312 excommunicated Archadius the Emperour and his wife Queene Eudoxia, for that they disobayed and persecuted their Bishoppe S. Chryso∣stome. We will report the iudiciall sentence briefly, because it is much to the purpose and full of Maiestie.

O Emperour (said Pope Innocentius well neare 1200 yeres agoe) the blood of my brother Iohn Chrysostome crieth to God against thee,* 1.313 thou hast cast out of his chaire the great Doctor of the world; and in him, by thy wiues (that delicate Dalida) persuasion hast persecuted Christ. Therfore I (though a poore sinful soule) to whom the throne of the great Apostle Saint Peter is committed, doe excommunicate thee and her, and do separate you both from the holy Sacraments: commaunding that no Priest, nor Bishop, vnder paine of depriuation, after this my sentence come to their knowledge, giue or minister the said Sacraments vnto you.

Theo.

Fairely shot, but quite besides the marke.

Phi.

Why so?

Theo.

* 1.314Our question is whether Prelates may depriue Princes of their Crownes, and you proue Bishops may deny them the word and Sacraments, if the cause so require.

Phi.

Is not that to the purpose?

Theo.

Not a whit. You saw we confessed so much before without vrging. What need you then spend time to proue it?

Phi.

If you graunt that, the rest will soone follow.

Theo.

We did and doe graunt, that with heretikes & Apostataes, be they princes or priuate men, no Christian Pastor or people may communicate.

Phi.

Wee desire no more.

Theo.

Inferre then.

Phi.

Ergo no Christian pastour nor people may obay them.

Theo.

This consequent hath beene often framed, and often denied, and now you beginne with a long discourse to proue the antecedent.

Phi.

The sequele is sure. If we may not communicate with them, wee may not obay them.

Theo.

What els haue we doone all this while but re∣fell that sequele? We may not communicate likewise with Idolaters and Infi∣dels. May we therefore not obay them?

Phi.

With Idolaters and Infidels we may not communicate in spirituall and heauenly things, but in temporal and earthly we may, and for that cause must obay them if they beare the sword.

Theo.

We say the like for Apostataes and heretikes. We may not commu∣nicate with them in diuine things, but in terrene things we may, and therefore we must obay them if they beare the sword.

Phi.

Heretikes be excommunicated, and so be not Infidels.

Theo.

Infi∣dels be without the Church of their owne accord, and heretikes be put out:* 1.315 this is all the difference betwixt them. Againe, your own Law saith, and true it is that excommunication doth not hinder any priuate * 1.316 vtilitie, necessitie or duty, how much lesse doth it barre the publike vtilitie, necessitie and dutie that sub∣iects owe their Souereignes? But these reasons were euen now opposed against you, and you retired from the Scriptures to the vse and practise of of Christs Church; promising as we tooke you, to bring vs not the selfe same weake and lame sequele, which we refuted before, but some plaine and apparant example, where the Church of Christ deposed Princes from their seats, and discharged the subiects from their alleageance. This if you doe, we be readie to giue you the hearing: If you runne bragging and vaunting of an other match, we knowe your mishap, a rotten tree will neuer yeeld sounde tym∣ber, you would if you could, and because you do not, wee conclude you can not.

Phi.

Yet answere that we bring, and of the sequele we will talke farther anon.

Theo.

That I will, what bring you?

Phi.

Numerius or Philip, it skilleth not whether, Theodosius, Arcadius, Anastasius, Lotharius, & Micha∣el, the yongest of them 700 yeres olde, though they were great and mightie Princes and Emperours, yet were they excommunicated by Bishops.

Theo.

* 1.317Your owne conclusion you haue suspended till anon, in the mean season heare ours and that out of your owne words. These Princes were excommunica∣ted, as you say, but they were also serued, honoured and obayed by all their Christian subiects, Bishops and others, as wee say and you can not

denie it: ergo we may serue, honour and obey Princes notwithstanding they bee persons excōmunicate; and consequently, your applying of scriptures that wee may not salute them, nor keepe companie with them, is a violent deprauing of these textes, and refuted by the manifest practise of Christes Church.

And because wee bee come so farre, I will adde somewhat touching the rest of your wise pretences; Constantius, Valens, Valentinian the youn∣ger, Anastasius, Iustinian, Heraclius, Constantine the 4. and others were hereticall Princes, Iulian an open Apostata: and yet the Church of Christ endured, serued and obeyed them, not in temporall things only, but in ecclesia∣sticall also, so farre as their Lawes did not impugne the faith, or corrupt good manners.

Phi.

You inferre vpon our examples, which we can auoyde when wee wil, but you answere them not.

Theo.

Our illation, which you shall neuer auoyd, proueth your examples to conclude for vs, and not against vs. You shewe that Princes were remoued from the Sacraments, which we graunt: but that they were remoued from their kingdomes, which we denie, that you shewe not: and so by your silence you confesse that to bee most true, which wee affirme, that hereticall and excommunicate Princes must haue their due subiection, honour and tribute as they had before they fell to such impieties, because they bee perils to their soules, not forfeytures of their Crownes: Other an∣swere we neede not make you since this will suffice.

And yet if wee would examine your examples by the pole, I coulde take many of them tardie.* 1.318 A booke written in Chrysostomes name witnesseth that Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche excluded a Christian Emperour out of the Church, for murdering a young Prince committed to him for an ho∣stage: and was martyred by the same tyrant for his constancie: but this can not stand with the stories of the Church, nor with your owne Author whom you alleage for the repentance and submission that you say this Em∣perour was after brought to by Fabian the generall sheephearde of Chri∣stendome.

Eusebius who wrate an hundreth yeeres before Chrysostome, sayth, that Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche died in prison vnder Decius an heathen Ty∣rant. After Philip succeeded Decius,* 1.319 who for hatred of Philip persecuted the Church: in the which persecution Fabianus Bishoppe of Rome was martyred: and Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche died in prison after the (constant) confession of his fayth.* 1.320 With him agreeth Nicephorus, Baby∣las sub Decio post confessionem fortiter obitam in vinculis discessit. Babylas after hee had made a stout confession of his fayth dyed in Prison vnder Deci∣us. If hee died vnder Decius, howe coulde hee bee slaine by Philippus or Numerius that were before Decius? If hee deceased in Prison, how can your Chrysostome say, that hee was caried out of Prison to his death and slaine? Can you reconcile these thinges and not giue one of your Authors the lie? If that declamation were Chrysostomes, hee wrate it when

he came fresh from the Philosophers schooles, as both the stile & matter argue, and before he was Bishoppe, as his owne woordes declare. For speaking of the place where Babylas was Bishoppe: he sayth, Nostri huius gregis curam gerebat, he was Pastor of this our flocke: and Chrysostome was Bishop of Constan∣tinople,* 1.321 not of Antioche.

Who pursued the saide Emperour by like excommunication for killing his Pa∣stor, since the Pastor was aliue after the Emperour was dead, and died in prison without any violence, neither can you tell, neither neede wee care. Of Philip, Nicephorus sayth no such thing in the place which you quote: hee repeateth on∣ly that which Eusebius long before reported in these words:* 1.322 Of Philip the fame is, that fauouring Christ, and willing the night before Easter to ioyne with the multitude of Christians in their prayers, hee was not suffered so to doe by the Bishoppe that then was vnlesse hee would first acknowledge his sinnes, and keepe his place with the repentants. Otherwise he could not be admitted, because his sinnes were many. And they say that hee gladly hear∣kened (to the Bishop) and shewed his syncere and religious mynde to God∣ward by his deedes.

The ground of the whole, in him that first wrate it, is but hearesay: the prin∣cipall matter, whether the Prince were remooued from the communion, or ne∣uer before admitted to the Lordes table, very doubtfull. The thing required at his handes, was no more but to humble himselfe in the sight of God, to whome all Princes must stoope with as great deuotion and submission as the poo∣rest woormes that are on earth. The conclusion may bee, that Princes then were trayned to Godlinesse; but that they were depriued of their kingdomes, is a wicked and vngodly suggestion of yours. Wee may with as good reason say, a Frier many tymes doeth shriue the Pope: Ergo a Frier may depose the Pope, which I thinke your holy Father will not like of.

* 1.323Saint Ambrose is the onely example in all antiquitie, which fully proueth that a Bishoppe did prohibite a Prince to enter the Church and to bee parta∣ker of the Lordes table: which wee neither deny, nor dispraise, considering the cause and the manner of the fact. The Prince, for a tumult raysed by some of the inhabitants of Thessalonica, caused his souldiers, without finding or searching the doers, to murder the people; were they straungers or Citizens, faultlesse or faultie, to the number of seuen thousand. After this execution at his next com∣ming to the Church, S. Ambrose stepped to the Church dore, and sayd, Thou seemest, O Prince, not to vnderstand what a monsterous slaughter of people is committed by thee, neither doth rage suffer thee to weigh with thy selfe what thou hast done: yet must thou know that from dust we came, & to dust we shal. Let not therfore the brightnes of thy robes hide frō thee the weak∣nes of flesh that is vnder them. Thy subiects are of the same metall which thou art, & serue the same Lord that thou doest. With what eyes therefore wilt thou behold the house of this cōmon Lord, & with what feete wilt thou

tread on his holy pauements? Wilt thou reach these hāds dropping yet with the blood of innocents to receiue the most sacred bodie of the Lorde? Wilt thou put that precious blood of his to thy mouth, which in a rage hast spilt so much Christian blood? Depart rather, and heape not one sinne on an other, neither refuse this bond, which the Lord of all doeth ratifie in heauen. It is not much, and it will restoare thee the health of thy soule.

This strake the Christian Prince to the heart, and turning about hee went home with teares:* 1.324 and all the tyme that hee was kept out of the Church, as a man in mourning hee woulde not put on his Imperiall robes: but that Am∣brose commaunded him to put off his kingly robes, and to leaue his Imperiall throne in the Chauncel, this is your venemous admixtion; the storie sayth no such thing. You falsely father it on S. Ambrose, to make men beleeue, that the Bishoppe might as well haue taken the princes scepter and sworde from him, as his robes and his throne.

Phi.

Did not S. Ambrose send him woorde that he should goe out of the Chauncell,* 1.325 and stande among the people?

Theo.

After his reconciliation, when they approched to the diuine mysteries, the Prince came within the barres which were prouided for those that shoulde helpe the Bishop to minister the Lordes supper,* 1.326 as his manner was at Constantinople, to whom the Bishoppe sent word, being himselfe at the Lords table, that those Rayles were prepared for the Priestes, and that it was not lawfull for any man else to come within them. And so Sozomene confesseth.* 1.327 The Emperours, sayth he, were wont for an excellencie aboue the people to sit in the same place where the Priestes were. Ambrose seeing this to fauour of flatterie assigned the Emperours a place in the Church next to the Chauncel, before the people, but after the Priestes. This order Theodosius and other Princes that succeeded him, great∣ly praysed, and we see it obserued from that day to this. So that Saint Am∣brose neither ment to take their seates from them within the Church, nor their robes without the Church; but thought it reason that the Princes precepts should not trouble the Priestes in the seruice of God. And therefore take flatte∣rie and heresie to your selues againe, we like and commend both the pietie of the Prince and the grauitie of the Bishop: but your malitious deprauing of the sto∣rie and mischieuous abusing the zeale of S. Ambrose to warrant rebellions & insurrections against Princes,* 1.328 whiles they repent them of their sinnes, wee doe not like; the more honourable his act, that sought to saue the Princes soule with the hazard of his owne life, the more detestable is yours, that fish for Princes Crownes vnder a shewe of penance, as if earthly kings might not bewaile their sinnes, and keepe their seales, which you are loth they should.

If Anastasius had beene excommunicated by Simachus, it hurteth not vs, deposed he was not;* 1.329 by him or any other: and with an hereticall Prince, neither Simachus, neither any other christian Bishop might communicate: yet euen thē was the East Church subiect to a Prince that fauoured Eutiches heresie, and Italie to a follower of Arius; and the contention, which of the two shoulde bee

Bishop of Rome,* 1.330 Symmachus or Laurentius, was referred to the iudgement of king Theodoricus an Arian heretike: but that Symmachus did excōmunicate Anastasius I find it in no authentike writer. Euagrius sayth that some condē∣ned Anastasius as an aduersarie to the Councell of Chalcedon,* 1.331 and reckened him out of the number of christian Emperours. Yea they of Hierusalem ac∣cursed (or excommunicated) him.

* 1.332Nicephorus rehearsing the wordes of Euagrius, addeth that they of Hieru∣salem excommunicated Anastasius yet liuing, which was more than Euagrius said. Sabellicus and Platina your very friends say this Emperour was excom∣municated by Gelasius, the second bishop before Symmachus: Martinus Polo∣nus and Iohannes Marius affirme it was done by Anastasius the next before Symmachus: you say Symmachus did it: which of these reports is y^e truest, can you tell? A witnes is not trusted if he be taken with two tales, we finde you in three, and that touching matters done a thousand yeeres before your time: (the wiser & elder Historiographers whence you should fetch it, as Regino, Sigiber∣tus, Vrspergensis, Frisingensis, Marianus, Scotus and others affirming no such thing; the later and most partiall faintly comming in with, * 1.333 sunt qui scribunt, * 1.334 vt tradunt quidam, there bee that write so: as some say,) shal we beleeue you?

Your Canon Lawe, the very hart and life of al your recordes at Rome, hath a very miraculous letter of the Pope Gelasius to this Anastasius, where Ge∣lasius telleth the Emperour howe Zacharie Bishoppe of Rome deposed the king of Fraunce and put Pipine the father of Charles the Emperour in his place,* 1.335 and discharged all the Frenchmen from their othe and allegeance: Whereas Zacharie was Bishoppe of Rome two hundreth and fourtie yeeres after Gelasius was dead, and Charles beganne not his Empire till eight hun∣dreth after Christ, Gelasius dying within fiue hundreth. Thus Hilderike king of Fraunce was deposed two hundreth yeres before hee was borne:* 1.336 and Gela∣sius wrate newes of Charles three hundreth yeeres after Gelasius was deade and buried. By such deuises you may soone depose Princes, if not by mutinies, yet at least by prophesies.

Phi.

The gloze warneth you that some take these to bee Gratians, and not Gelasius words.

Theo.

But Gratian himselfe warned you before that they were Gelasius wordes to Anastasius the Emperour: for so he prefixeth the title. Vnde Gelasius Papa Anastasio Imperatori.* 1.337 In which sense Pope Gelasius wrate thus to the Emperour Anastasius. Then followe these woordes summed in red letters before, as his manner of alleaging is throughout the whole bodie of your Canon Law. And therfore vnlesse you will say the collectour of your De∣crees & Decretals wrate the title waking, and the text sleeping; you can not choose but see what morter hath been vsed at Rome to plaister your holy fathers rotten right to depose Princes.* 1.338

Lotharius and Michael Emperours, you say, were excōmunicated by Nicho∣las the first. If we should aske you how you prooue it, perhaps it woulde trouble

you more than you think. Late writers in this case we trust not, & auncient wee finde none that report any such thing of Michael.* 1.339 Platina saith, that Nicholas the first entertained the Embassadours of this Michael with great curtesie & sent them home with presents (to their master.) Zonaras a Grecian confesseth that the legates of the Bishop of Rome in a Councell assembled at Constanti∣nople, deposed Ignatius and confirmed Photius. And though you haue shuffled into your Decretals a flaunting Epistle vnder the name of Nicholas the first to this Michael to frustrate the iudgement of those corrupt Legates, and to re∣proue the Prince for his ouer-lustie letters,* 1.340 yet knowe you that no good storie maketh mention of any such strife betweene them; and that in the letter it selfe, notwithstanding it be a perfect image of your shyfting and forging to make the Popes pride somewhat auncient, yet is there no word nor signe of excommuni∣cation denounced or threatned against Michael.

Lotharius you grossely mistake; it was not the Emperour, whom Nicho∣las the first offered to excommunicate, but a king of Lorraine named Lotharius and brother to Lodouike the second,* 1.341 that held the Empire both during the life of Nicholas the first, & after his death. Neither did the Pope excommunicate that king as you auouche; but hee willed the king to beware lest he fell within the compas of that sentence which was giuen against his harlot, and lest him selfe were forced to publish that his wilfulnes to the Church, and so the King should become as an Ethnike and Publicane to all Christians. And that the deed was not done you may perceiue by Pope Adrians behauiour & speach to * 1.342Lotharius, and the rest, when he ministred the Lords Supper to them at their cōming to Rome: yet the attempt was so strange, that Otho Frisingensis saith, See the kingdome decreasing, and the Church aspiring to that authoritie, that she will iudge kings.

The famous, and as you say maiesticall excommunication of Arcadius and Eudoxia by Innocentius,* 1.343 well neere 1200. yeres agoe, is a ridiculous and pee∣uish corruption deuised by some practiser at Rome, and embraced ouer greedi∣ly by Nicephorus, and other later Grecians in fauour of Chrysostome. Which insolent fansie wide from the matter we striue for, and full of forgerie, because it is refuted before, I may well ouerskippe. If it were true, as it is apparently false, it remoueth Princes from the Sacraments, but not from their Scepters.

Thus of seuen examples pretended, that Princes were excōmunicated in the auncient times of the Church, only one is duely proued, and no mo within 860. yeres after Christ: & that not by the Bishop of Rome, but by S. Ambrose Bi∣shop of Millan.* 1.344 The rest are either enforced against the stories of the Church, or boldly presumed by you besides the stories. And yet were they all prooued and confessed, they make nothing for your purpose. The question is not whether bi∣shops shall receiue kinges with open and obstinate vices to the Lordes table, but whether they may chase them from their kingdomes or no. We mislike not repentance in Princes, but resistance in subiects; bind their sinnes as fast as you can, but pul them not downe from their Seates.

* 1.345And yet least you should thinke that Princes then had no faultes, or that learned and godly Bishops did in those dayes forbeare to excommunicate Prin∣ces rather for feare or flatterie, than for any Religion or duetie: marke what care S. Augustine will haue obserued, howe and when discipline shoulde bee v∣sed. If contagion of sinne haue inuaded a multitude, the mercifull seueritie of correction from God himselfe is necessarie; nam consilia separationis & ina∣nia sunt, & perniciosa, atque sacrilega, quia & impia, & superba fiunt, & plus pertur∣bant infirmos bonos, quàm corrigant animosos malos: For (then) the attempt to ex∣communicate is frustrate, and pernicious, yea sacrilegious: because it be∣commeth both impious and arrogant, and more troubleth the good that be weake, than correcteth the euill that be carelesse.

Neither was this the iudgement of S. Augustine alone: but the generall wisedome of Christes church, as himselfe professeth when he entereth into this question. In hac velut angustia quaestionis non aliquid nouum aut insolitum dicam, sed quod sanitas obseruat ecclesiae, vt cum quisque fratrum, id est Christianorum intus in ecclesiae societate constitutorum, in aliquo tali peccato fuerit deprehensus, vt anathe∣mate dignus habeatur, fiat hoc vbi periculum schismatis nullum est, atque id cum ea dilectione de qua ipse alibi praecepit dicens, vt inimicum non eum existimetis, sed corripite vt fratrew. Non enim estis ad eradicandum, sed ad corrigendum. In the straitnes of this question I will say nothing that is newe or vnwonted, but that which the soundnes of the church obserueth:* 1.346 that when any of our bre∣thren, I meane Christians within the Church is deprehended in any such fault that hee deserueth excommunication, let that be done, where there is no daunger of any schisme: and with such loue as the Apostle commanded saying, Esteeme him not as an enemie, but rebuke him as a brother. For you are not to roote vp but to amend.

And to this ende S. Augustine largely disputeth throughout that chapter, shewing that excommunication is not to be vsed, where a schisme is iustly fea∣red.* 1.347 It can not bee an healthful reproouing by many, but when hee that is reproued hath no number to take his part. But if the same disease hath pos∣sessed many, the good haue nothing left for them to do but to sorrowe and mourne. And therefore the same Apostle finding many defiled with forni∣cation and vncleannes, in his seconde epistle to the same Corinthians, doeth not commaund them not to eate meate with such. Hee that calleth excom∣munication, a proude, pernicious and sacrilegious attempt, where any number is linked together, that a schisme may follow, what would he haue sayd to you, that excommunicate Princes and whole Realmes, whence not onely daunge∣rous schismes, but also cruell persecutions easily may, & commonly doe arise?

* 1.348Againe, the ende of excommunication which Saint Paul toucheth, and the meane which he prescribeth do cease in Princes. If any man obey not our say∣ings, haue no cōpanie with him that hee may be ashamed. Now the princes companie the subiects may not flie, both in respect of the necessitie, that al men haue to deale with the magistrate, & duetie that must be yeelded to the Princes

person and preceptes. And how should the people make their Prince ashamed, whom by Gods Law they must honour and obey in all thinges, and by whom they must iustly bee punished if they offer default in any thing? And this the church of God wisely considering neuer vrged any Subiectes to dishonour their Princes, neither did Sainct Ambrose separate Theodosius from the companie of men: but hee charged him in Gods name to refraine the church and Sacramentes vntill hee appeased the wrath of God by repentaunce. Hee charged not the people to disgrace or shunne their Prince, but he burdened the Princes owne conscience,* 1.349 knowing full well his religious disposition, and of∣fering his life into the Princes handes, if he misliked the fact.

Your selues prouide for this mischiefe, but, as your maner is, by wicked & craftie dissembling,* 1.350 not by christian and sober forbearing the thing which you should not aduenture. The Pope who is farre enough off and free from al ha∣zardes, hee must first pronounce the sentence, you will stande by and watch your time, when you may safely without losse of life or goods put his sen∣tence in execution: till that pinch come, you may sweare and stare, you bee lo∣uing and obedient Subiects: but then in any case you must shew your selues, or else you be accursed for euer. Toledo teacheth you, that if there be danger of life or goods, you may finely iuggle with excommunicate Princes, and serue thē, and honour them with al circumstances, till you be strong enough to take their Crownes from their heades in spite of their heartes, and then you must spare them * 1.351 no longer: and so much the dispensation which Campion and Parsons obtayned of his holinesse, when they came into this Realme, importeth.

Phi.

Woulde you that men shoulde communicate with hereticall Princes?

Theo.

Condemne their errours but praie for their persons: for so the Apostle willeth you. I exhort you therefore, that first of all supplications, prayers and intercessions bee made for kinges and for al that are in authoritie: when kinges were Infidels and Idolaters. So God commaunded his people, whē they were caried to Babylon. Seek the prosperitie of the citie, whether I haue caused you to bee caried awaie captiues, and pray to the Lord for it: for in the peace thereof shall you haue peace. Which Tertullian witnesseth the christians did in all their publike assemblies.* 1.352 Wee call vpon the euerlasting God for the health of our Emperours, alwaies beseeching God to sende e∣uerie of them long life, happie raigne, trustie seruantes, valiant souldiers, faithfull counsellours, orderly subiectes, and the worlde quiet: and what soeuer people or Prince can wish for. Examine your selues how farre you be from the innocencie and integritie of Christes church. They wished all hap∣pinesse to heathen Princes, and praied for the securitie of their liues, and pro∣speritie of their states. You curse and ban christian Princes, and lay plots not onely for enimies to inuade them, but for subiectes to shake off the yoke, and shorten the daies of their naturall and lawfull Princes.

Phi.

The church of Christ praied for her Princes if they were Pagans,* 1.353 but not if they were heretikes.

Theo.

What was Constantius; a Pagan or

an heretike.

Phi.

An Arian.

Theo.

For him the church praied.

Phi.

For his con∣uersion.

Theo.

For his health, raigne, and welfare.

Phi.

Heretikes perhaps, like himselfe, did.

Theo.

I say Catholiks.

Phi.

It was then at the beginning of his raigne before his impietie was notorious.

Theo.

About you fetch, and all will not serue. This testimonie that the church praied for Constantius, though an heretike, was giuen by a Councell of catholike Bishoppes in the 21. yeare of his raigne not long before his death.

Phi.

Where finde you that the church praied for him?

Theo.

Reade the two letters, which the West Bishops sent from Ariminum to Constantius; and see whether it be not cleare.* 1.354 In the first thus they say, Wee beseech you that you cause vs not to staie from our cures, but that the bishops togither with the people seruing God in peace, may humblie praie for your health, king∣dome and safetie, in which the diuine Maiestie long preserue you. The con∣clusion of their second letter is this,* 1.355 For this cause we beseech your clemen∣cie the second time, most religious Lord and Emperour, that you command vs to depart to our churches, if it so please your godlines, before the sharpnes of winter come, that wee may make our accustomed praiers togither with the people to the almightie God, and our Lord and Sauiour Christ, for your imperie, as we haue alwaies purposed, and now wish to continue.

The writings of Hilarie and Athanasius to this verie Prince confirme the same. We beseech your clemencie to permit, saith Hilarie, that the peo∣ple may haue such teachers as they like, such as they thinke well of, such as they choose, & let them solemnize the diuine mysteries and make prayers for your safetie & prosperitie. Athanasius by his prayers made for this prince in the open assemblie of the people cleareth himselfe from hauing intelligence with Magnentius the murtherer of his brother. With what eyes could I be∣hold that bloodie homicide? or howe coulde I but cal to minde your bro∣thers face, whiles I made my praiers for your health? Howe coulde I in∣dure to thinke euill of your brother, or sende letters to his enimie, and not rather pray and beseech God for your welfare, which verily I did? A wit∣nesse hereof is first the Lord, which hath giuen you the whole Empire, that was left by your Fathers. There can witnesse also with me Felicissimus the captaine of Aegypt, Asternis the Earle, Paladius the master of your Pa∣lace, and others.* 1.356 My wordes were, Let vs pray for the welfare of the most religious Emperour Constantius: and presently the whole people with one voice cryed; O Christ bee fauorable to Constantius, and this crie they continued a long time. And appealing to the Emperours owne conscience & knowledge: You haue good triall that all (the christians) make their pray∣ers and supplications to God that you may liue in safetie and continuallie raigne in peace. And God graunt you, O most gracious Prince, to liue ma∣ny yeares.

Heare you deaffe of yeares, and dul of hartes; the church of Christ praied for hereticall Princes in the middest of their impietie and tyrannie: And when

it was but obiected to Athanasius, that hee and others wrote letters to one that rebelled and tooke armes against the Prince:* 1.357 hee made answere, Vincat quaeso apud the veritas, & ne relinquas suspicionem contra vniuer sam Ecclesiam, quasi talia aut cogitentur aut scribantur à christianis & potissimum Episcopis. I beseech you, let truth take place with you, and leaue not this suspition vp∣on the catholike church, as though any such things were written or thought on by Christians, and especially by Bishoppes. Howe farre then were these men from your humours, which professe to depose Princes, and not on∣lie licence Subiectes to rebell, but incite them to kill their Soueraignes, as you did lately Parry with pardon, praise, and recompence both here and in heauen?

Phi.

They might do this in the beginning of his raigne before hee discoue∣red his heresie.

Theo.

These bee senslesse shiftes. Hilarius wrote his booke after the Councell kept at Millan by Constantius, and Athanasius his, after Liberius was banished. For those pointes be mentioned in their writinges, and fell out the one immediatly before the other after the Councel of Arimi∣num. And therefore the rathest of these defences came seuenteene yeares after the beginning of Constantius raigne and in the hoatest of his tyrannicall and hereticall persecution, as the bookes themselues declare: And yet they not onely indured but also obeyed him as their liege Lord, and detested all re∣sistance in deede and thought as vnlawfull for Christians, and chiefly for Bi∣shops

Phi.

But when in processe of time some Princes,* 1.358 through Gods iust iudgement & the peoples sinne, were fallen to such contempt of religion (as it lightly happeneth by heresie and Apostasie) that excommunication, being onely but a spirituall penal∣tie, or other ordinarie Ecclesiasticall discipline would not serue: then as well Bishops as other godlie persons, their owne Subiectes, did craue aide and armes of other Princes for their chastisement; as most holie and auncient Popes (euen in the olde dayes when the Protestants confesse them to haue beene godlie Bishoppes) did incite catholike kinges to the same: that those whom the spirituall rodde coulde not fruit∣fullie chastise, they might by externe or temporall force bring them to order and repentaunce; or at least defende their innocent Catholike Subiectes from vniust vexation.

Theo.

You begin nowe to shewe your selues in your right kinde. From the church you leape to the fielde; meaning belike, as Iulius the seconde did, that since Peters keyes wil not pleasure you, Paules sworde shall better steede you. The side of your booke seemeth to direct vs when, and vppon what occasion spirituall Pastours beganne to vse the temporall sword,* 1.359 but the text it selfe runneth quite awrie. Wee finde there neither time prefixed nor spirituall Pa∣stour named that euer vsed the temporall sworde. Are rebellions such trifles with you, that you thinke to proue them with a Marginall note?

Phi.

There is no warre in the world so iust or honorable,* 1.360 be it ciuill or forraigne,

as that which is waged for religion,* 1.361 we say for the true, auncient, Catholike, Romane religion; which by the lawes of holy church and all christian Nations, is adiudged to bee the only true worship of God; and vnto the obedience of which all Princes & peo∣ple haue yeelded themselues, either by oth, vow, or sacramentes, or euerie of these waies. For this, it is goodly and honorable to fight in such order and times, as wee bee warranted in conscience and law, by our supreme Pastours and Priestes; and not for wild condemned heresies, against most lawfull christian catholikes, kinges & Priests; as the rebellious Protestantes and Caluinistes of this time doe, without all order, law, or warrant of God or man. As the armes taken for defence of godlie honour and in∣heritāce in such sort & difference from heretical tumults, as is said, are so much more commendable and glorious; for that no crime in the world deserueth more sharpe and zealous pursuite of extreme reuenge, (whether it be in superiours or subiects) than re∣uolting from the faith to strange religions.

Theo.

Bee you not maruelous sharpe and sounde disputers, which alwaies proue that you neede not, and euer inferre that you should not?

Phi.

Wee proue directly that which wee vndertooke.

Theo.

What vndertooke you?

Phi.

That Princes might be depriued.

Theo.

By sentence, meane you, or by vi∣olence?

Phi.

By sentence if that will serue: but if they yeelde not thereto, then by violence.

Theo.

Your iudiciall power to giue sentence of depriuation a∣gainst them, you would faine haue established by the Scriptures and examples of the Primatiue church: howe short you came of that reckoning, I leaue the wise to consider: You proceede nowe to the violent expelling them from their Princely seates, wherein it is a world to see how idlely you hunt about, or ra∣ther purposely pursue the wrong foote, because in the right you finde no reliefe.

* 1.362Warre for the Catholike Religion is both lawfull and honorable, you saie: you must adde of the subiectes against their Prince, or else you range cleane be∣sides our question. Wee striue not what causes may leade christian Princes to make warre on their neighbors, but whether it be lawfull or tolerable for the subiect to beare armes against his naturall and absolute Prince. You proue, which is nothing to your purpose, that princes haue waged warres for religion: & when you come to make your conclusion, you secretly conuey this vnder hand which is most in doubtt betwixt vs, and in generall termes you proclaime that warres for religion are iust and honorable. But Sir in this interprise the per∣son must be respected as well as the cause.* 1.363 Be the cause neuer so iust, if the person be not authorized by God to draw the sworde, they bee no iust nor law∣full warres but barbarous and theenish vprores. For say your selfe, when malefactours deserue to die, may priuate men put them to death without the Magistrate?

Phi.

No.

Theo.

And if they do, be they not murderers, though the crime which they reuenge, be worthy of death?

Phi.

They bee.

Theo.

Then if in priuate punishmentes men may not presume without his authoritie that beareth the sworde, much lesse may they venter on open warres (which are wilfull and furious executions by plaine force without all order of iustice)

vnlesse they be directly warranted by him that hath the sword from God to take vengeance of the wicked.

Phi.

We be warranted in conscience and law.

Theo.

Wee talke nowe of your conclusion, not of your commission. If Princes who beare the sword may lawfully wage warre for religion, is it consequent, I aske you, that priuate men which haue not the sword may doe the same?

Phi.

Priuate men may not beare armes without authoritie.* 1.364

Theo.

And if they doe, bee they not plaine theeues and murtherers?

Phi.

If they be not warranted to fight.

Theo.

To rifle and slea one is theft and murther by the lawes of God and man, what then are they that spoile Realmes and kill thowsandes with armed violence, but grand theeues and murtherers?* 1.365

Phi.

If they be not lawfully authorized there∣to, they be no better than robbers and slaughterers.

Theo.

Then Princes may mage warre if the cause bee good, because God hath giuen them the sworde to maintaine iustice: and, if that bee refused, to offer force both at home and abroade; priuate persons may not doe the like, bee the cause ne∣uer so iust, for so much as they bee not licenced by God to beare or vse the sword.

Phi.

I tolde you before,* 1.366 that we bee warranted.

Theo.

So had you neede. Your warres else for religion bee no lawfull & iust armes, but desperate and wicked tumults. But by whom are you warranted?

Phi.

By our supreme Pastors and Priestes.

Theo.

Doe Pastours and Priestes beare the sworde?

Phi.

I say not so, but they warrant vs to take the sworde.

Theo.

Can they warrant you to take the sword, that haue no autoritie to beare the sword?

Phi.

They be superiour iudges to these that beare the sworde.

Theo.

What? In temporall causes?

Phi.

No, but in spirituall,

Theo.

Fighting and killing are martiall, not spirituall affaires.

Phi.

Yet to be directed by spiritual Pa∣stors.

Theo.

We striue not for directing, but for authorizing of armes. Prea∣chers may be consulted whether the quarrell be iust, but onely the Magistrate that hath from heauen supreme power of goods, lands, life and death can war∣rant the subiect to vse the sword.

Phi.

The cause maketh the warre lawfull or otherwise.* 1.367 It is godly and honorable to fight for religion, we say: for the true, ancient, catholike, Romane religion, in such order and time as we be warranted in conscience and lawe by our supreme Pastours & Priestes: and not for vile condemned heresies against most lawfull christian catholike kinges and Priestes as the rebellious Protestants and Caluinistes of this time do, with∣out all order, law, warrant of God or man.

Theo.

If Nabals sheepe be not all shorne, I dare warrant you better inter∣tainement there, than euer Dauid had. Spoiles, massacres, conspiracies and treasons euen to the destruction and murther of Princes by their own seruāts,* 1.368 if a Priest say the word, you count in your selues to be iust, honorable and godlie warres: If others doe but stand on their gard to keepe their liues and families from the bloodie rage of their enimies, seeking to put whole townes and Pro∣uinces of them to the sworde against all lawe and reason, and to disturbe the

kingdomes in the minoritie of the right Gouernours: or if they defend their an∣cient and christian liberties couenanted and agreed on by those Princes to whō they first submitted themselues, and euer since confirmed and allowed by the kinges that haue succeeded. If in either of these two cases the godly require their right and offer no wrong, impugne not their Princes, but onely saue their owne liues, you crie, rebellious heretikes, rebellious Caluinistes, furie, phrensie, mutinie,* 1.369 & I know not what. You may pursue, depose & murther Prin∣ces, when the Bishop of Rome biddeth you & that without breach of dutie, law, or cōscience to God or man, as you vaunt, though neither life nor limme of yours be touched: wee may not so much as beseech Princes that we may be vsed like subiects not like slaues, like men not like beasts, that we may bee conuented by lawes before iudges, not murthered in corners by inquisitours: wee may not so much as hide our heades, nor pull our neckes out of the greedie iawes of that Romish wolfe, but the fome of your vncleane mouth is ready to call vs by al the names you can deuise.

Howbeit looke well to your selues: it is not enough for you to haue lawes of your owne making to licence you to beare armes against your Prince, you must haue Gods law for your warrant: or else you come within the compasse of heinous and horrible rebellion. For you doe not defend your selues, but im∣pugne your Prince: you seeke not the freedom of your religion, but the sub∣uersion of other mens estates: you do not take armes that your condition may be tolerable, but that her highnes shoulde be no Prince: you saue not your own liues, but intend her death. These shamefull and manifest treasons, against the law of God, nature and nations you smooth with a few faint colours, and pub∣lish them to the whole world for iust, honorable, and godly warres. But deceiue not your selues: the breath of your mouthes may not ouerbeare the lawes of God & states of men. You must shew some better warrant than the Popes decrees, or else your rising in armes against your Prince, though the Bishoppe of Rome back and abet you with all his Buls and Decretals, is an vnlawful, irreligious and wicked rebellion.

Phi.

* 1.370Whosoeuer seeketh not after the Lord God of Israell, let him bee slaine (saide king Asa admonished by Azaria the Prophet) from the highest to the lowest without exception. And all the people and many that followed him and fled to him out of Israel from the schisme there, did sweare and vowe them-selues in the quarrell of the God of their forefathers. And they prospered and deposed Queene Maáchah Mother to Asa for Apostasie, and for worshipping the venereous God called Priapus.

Theo.

Doth the example of king Asa, forcing his Subiectes with an othe and vnder paine of death to seeke after the Lorde God of Israel,* 1.371 serue you to proue that Subiectes may assault their king and oppresse him with armes? Will this goe for a reason with you? The Magistrate may vse the sworde and put offendours to death, ergo the Subiect may vse the same and that against his Prince. Sure if you make such collections, wee shall mi∣strust

rebellion hath so possessed your braynes, that reason hath no place in you.

Phi.

This example proueth that heretikes may be deposed, and put to death.

Theo.

But by whom? By the Prince, or the people?

Phi.

The king I grant was the doer.

Theo.

Then seeke farther for your conspiracies against kinges; this ex∣ample will do you no good.

Phi.

The people that fledde to him out of Israel from the schisme there, did sweare and vowe themselues in the same quarrell with the king of Iudah.* 1.372

Theo.

The straungers that fledde out of Israell for their conscience sake, tooke an oth to serue the same God, but not to beare armes against their owne countrie.

Phi.

They prospered and deposed Queene Maáchah mother to Asa for Apostasie and for worshipping the venereous God Priapus.

Theo.

You inlarge the number where you should not: which by your leaue is a plaine corruption of the Scrip∣ture. The text is,* 1.373 And king Asa deposed Maáchah his mother from her regē∣cie, because she had made an idoll. And againe, not (they) but he deposed Ma∣áchah his mother from her estate because she had made an idol. The Queene mother was remoued from her honor & dignitie by the king her sonne for her i∣dolatrie: but Asa did not put her to death though that were the summe of the oth which the king and the rest tooke: and he that did this deede, was the true king of Iudah, and in full possession of the crowne many yeares before, and suf∣fered his mother not in her owne right but of reuerence & curtesie towards her, to inioy some part of her former degree and dignitie: from the which he lawful∣ly might and worthily did put her when shee fell to erecting and worshipping Idols.

Phi.

The text noteth not howe long hee was king, before hee deposed his mother.* 1.374

Theo.

After the death of Abiah, Asa his sonne (saieth the Scrip∣ture) raigned in his steede, in whose dayes the Land was quiet tenne yeares. Then came the AEthiopians out against him with an huge hie host, & those hee ouerthrew. And at his returne the Prophet Azariah met him and in∣couraged him to goe forwarde in the reformation of the Lande, which hee perfourmed in all the Cities of Iudah and Beniamin; and gathered all the people of the Lande togither, in the fifteenth yeare of his raigne,* 1.375 where this oth was taken and paine appointed, before his mother was deposed. So that he, not shee was rightfull Gouernour of Iudah; and that which shee lost was either the honour and dignitie which otherwise did appertaine to so great a State as the kinges mother: or else that portion of the Lande which was assigned to her to rule vnder the king in respect of her dowrie. Howso∣euer, the kingdome shee had not: and therefore the crowne she lost not, neither finde you here a Prince deposed by his subiectes, but a Prince remouing her that in nature was his mother, in condition his subiect, from that authoritie or dignitie (choose you whether) which before of fauor not of duety he suffered her to haue.

Phi.

For that case also in Deuteronomie expresse charge was giuen to slea all

false Prophetes, and whosoeuer should auert the people from the true worship of God, & induce them to receiue straunge Gods and newe religions; and to destroie all their followers, were they neuer so neere vs by nature. And in the same place; that if anie Citie shoulde reuolt from the receiued and prescribed worship of God, & be∣gin to admit new religions; it should be vtterly wasted by fire and sword.

Theo.

* 1.376The commaundement in Deuteronomie toucheth not heretiks, but manifest Apostataes, such as cleane forsooke the verie name and outward pro∣fession of God, and serued straunge and new gods: and the rigour of this pre∣cept, I meane the punishment doeth not binde vs that are vnder the Gospell by the iudgement of the best learned that euer taught in the church of Christ. For by the same law of God blasphemers,* 1.377 adulterers, witches, strikers and cursers of Parentes should die: Which penalties your owne church did neuer execute, nor any christian Magistrate that euer wee reade of. Touching heretikes you heard Sainct Augustines opinion before, that it neuer pleased any good man in the catholike church that heretikes shoulde bee put to death. And there∣fore the ancient Fathers did not extend these preceptes to heresie as you doe, or else they thought them-selues and the church of Christ not bounde to the iu∣diciall part of Moses lawe, which properly concerned the Iewes Common-wealth and expired at the comming of our Sauiour. But admit this place were ment of heresie, which is not so; when God saith, that Prophetes shalbe slaine: and thou shalt slea the inhabitants of that citie with the edge of the sworde and destroie it vtterly: doeth he speake to priuate or publike persons? To priuate men he saide, * 1.378 thou shalt not kill; ergo this precept, hee shall bee slaine, is directed to the Magistrate to whome God gaue the sworde for this purpose, that hee should take vengeance of the wicked in his name and accor∣ding to his law.

Phi.

What if the Magistrate him-selfe bee the partie that so sinneth, and should be put to death: shall he escape?

Theo.

That is the case which you take in hande to proue, that the people may punish the Prince offending as wel as the Prince may the people.

Phi.

Either the people, or none must do it.

Theo.

And since the people may not doe it, it is euident that God hath reserued the ma∣gistrate to be punished by himselfe, and not giuen the people power ouer their Prince.* 1.379 Dauid committed adulterie, Salomon e••ected Idolatrie; both of∣fences being death by Gods lawe. Might the people therefore haue put Dauid & Salomon to death? In many christian common-wealthes, rapes, thestes, mur∣thers, be capitall crimes and punished by death: shall the people therefore take their Princes if they be culpable in any of these, and by their owne lawes chop off their heads? I think you be not so mad to put the sword in euerie mans hand that first will vse it.

Phi.

* 1.380Then Princes haue impunitie to doe what they list without feare of Lawes.

Theo.

Princes appoint penalties for others, not for themselues. They beare the sworde ouer others, not others ouer them. Subiectes must be pu∣nished by them, and they by none, but by God whose place they supplie. Saint

Cyrill saith rightly, Nemo leges Regum impunè reprobat nisi Reges ipsi, in quibus praeuaricationis crimen locum non habet. Prudenter enim dictum est, impium esse qui regi dixerit, iniquè agis. No man may breake the lawes of Princes with∣out punishment but the Princes themselues, who may not be charged with the transgression (of their owne Lawes.) For it was wisely spoken, he is wic∣ked that sayeth to a king thou art an offendour. And if it bee a monster in nature and policie to suffer the children to chastise the father,* 1.381 and the ser∣uantes to punish the Master, what a barbarous and impious deuise of yours is this to giue the Subiectes power of life and death ouer their Princes? Sticke not to these thinges, if you bee wise; least Children and Ser∣uauntes thinke it more neede, you bee purged for Phrensie, than answered by Diuinitie.

Phi.

Neither pertaineth this to poore men onely, but to the Gouernours and Leaders of the people most of all. As wee see in the booke of Numbers, where Moses by the commaundement of God caused all the Princes of the people to bee hanged vppon Gibbettes against the Sunne, for communication in sacrifice with the Moabites; and the rest of the people euerie one by the hande of his neighbour to bee put to the sworde for the same fault: wherein Phinees the Priest of God by sleaing a chiefe Captaine with his owne handes deserued eternall prayse and the perpetuitie of his Priesthood.* 1.382 By Moses also his appointment the faithfull Leuites slue 3300. of their neighbours, brethren, and friendes, for committing idolatrie and forsaking the true God. Mary in all this (as you see by the examples alleadged) the Prophet and Priestes must direct them for the cause and action, that they erre not of phantasie, partialitie, pride, and pretence of Religion, as heretikes and rebels do, but the quarrel must be for the olde faith, seruice and Priesthood, against innouation; and directed and allowed by those which by order and function haue charge of our soules.

Theo.

Can you see no difference betweene Nobles that bee Subiectes, and the Prince that beareth the sworde?* 1.383 Moses the chiefe Magistrate was commaunded by God to hang vp the heades and captaines of the people for committing whoordome with the daughters of Moab and bowing down to their gods; and so hee did. Your conclusion is; ergo the people may doe the like to their Magistrates. You may hang this reason on a hedge for the goodnesse of it. Your antecedent hath two sufficient warrantes, which your conclusion lacketh. First God precisely commaunded that kinde of reuenge to bee taken: and secondly the Magistrate was the reuenger. Howe can you then vpon this infer that Subiectes may do the same, since Subiectes be no ma∣gistrates, and haue a streit commandement from God not to laie hands on his annointed?

Phi.

Phinees the Priest of God slue Zimri the Prince of the house of Simeon, with his owne hands, and thereby gat the perpetuitie of his Priesthood.

Theo.

Phinees had for his warrant afore he did the deede the voice both of God and the Magistrate. For Moses had charged the Iudges of Israell before Zimri

came with the woman of Midian into the tentes:* 1.384 Euery one slaie his men that ioyned vnto Baal Peor. And the Magistrate commaunding, as in this case you see he did, it was lawful for Phinees or any other priuate person to execute that sentence.

Phi.

Why then was Phinees so highly commended and recompen∣ced at Gods handes?* 1.385

Theo.

Not for attempting to kill without commission as you imagine, but for his readinesse to accomplish the will of God, and worde of Moses with his owne handes in the sight of them all, and hastning in his own person to do that execution though he were the chiefe Prince of the tribe of Le∣uie, and sonne to Eleazar the high Priest: whose zeale for his seruice God so imbraced, that he willed the office of the high Priest, after his fathers death to remaine to him and his line for euer.

Phi.

The Leuites, before that, slue 3300. of their neighbours, brethren and friends for committing idolatrie and forsaking the true God.

Theo.

Why shoulde they not, when as God and the Magistrate appointed them so to doe? Moses gaue them the charge in these words:* 1.386 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put euerie man his sworde by his side, and goe to and fro, from gate to gate through the host, and slea euery man his brother, and euery man his com∣panion, and euery man his neighbor. And the children of Leui did as Mo∣ses had commanded, and there fell of the people that day about three thow∣sand men. What fact can be more lawfull than where God prescribeth what shall be done, and he that beareth the sword authoriseth others to do it?

Phi.

The Priestes you see made this slaughter of the people.

Theo.

The Leuites were not all Priestes, though they were to attend on the Arke, and the rest of the seruice of God: Aaron and his sonnes had the Priesthood and not the whole Tribe of Leui. The Scripture it selfe will giue you that distinction. The Leuites were appointed vnto all the seruice of the Tab••rnacle of the house of God.* 1.387 But Aaron and his sonnes burnt incense vpon the Altar of burnt offering. And what shoulde let the Leuites to beare armes at Moses commaundement, who afterward in defence of king Ioash at his coronation, in the Temple, did compasse him,* 1.388 Euerie man with his weapon in his hand? Against the Magistrate they did not bend their swords as you do, but rather for obedience to the Magistrate, and therefore their example wil not warrant your displaying of banners against your Prince.

Phi.

Was Moses a Magistrate?

Theo.

Howe thinke you, was he not?

Phi.

* 1.389The Scripture sayeth hee was a Priest and a Prophet, not a Prince.

Theo.

Those bee no reasons to exclude him from bearing the sword. Melchi∣zedec was a Priest of the most high God and king of Salem. Ely was a Priest and Samuel a Prophet, and yet both were Soueraigne Rulers ouer Israell. Moses might annoynt Aaron at the first erection of the Priest∣hoode, and deliuer the lawe of God vnto the people, and yet keepe the Ciuil re∣giment.

Phi.

Why then doth Dauid number Moses and Aaron among the Priests of God?

Theo.

The worde which Dauid vseth doeth signifie those that be

chiefe in any seruice as well as Priestes: as in the second of Samuel the eight chapter where it is saide that * 1.390 Zadoc and Abimelec (the Sonnes of Phinees) were the Priests, it is presently added, and the sonnes of Dauid c••hanìm haìu were (no Priestes, but) chiefe Princes or Rulers: And yet the worde is the very same that was vsed before to Zadoc and Abimelec the sonnes of Aaron. So in the 20. of the same booke * 1.391 Zadoc and Abiathar were Pristes and Ira the Iairite was cohen ledauid, not a Priest to Dauid, for that had beene wicked∣nesse against the law of God to make a mere strāger that was no Leuite a priest, but a chiefe Prince about Dauid. And so Dauid ioyneth Moses and Aaron as the Principall seruitours about God, and chiefe Rulers of the people: Moses for regiment, Aaron for sacrifices.

And did the worde exactly signifie Priestes, the letter beth which goeth before it, importeth either in the number of the Priests or togither with the Priests: so that Moses and Aaron with the Priests called on the name of the Lorde. But that Moses was a Priest after Aaron and his sonnes were annointed, is a manifest vntrueth against the Scriptures. God sayde to Moses,* 1.392 Thou shalt put vppon Aaron the holie garmentes and shalt annoynt him. And sanctifie him that hee may serue mee in the Priestes office. Thou shalt also bring his sonnes, and cloath them with garmentes. And shalt annoynt them, as thou diddest annoynt their Father, that they may serue me in the Priests office: so shall this their annoynting bee to them for an euerlasting Priest-hoode in their generations.* 1.393 And againe, Thou shalt appoynt Aaron and his sonnes to execute the Priestes office, and the straunger that commeth neere shall die. Which precept excluded not onelie the rest of the Tribes, but euen the Leuites them-selues, that were not the sonnes of Aaron, from being Prestes or medling with the sacrifices, that shoulde be offered vnto God.

To Aaron God sayde:* 1.394 Thou and thy sonnes with thee shall beare the iniquitie (or burden) of the Priestes office. Thy brethren of the Tribe of Leui shalt thou take to minister vnto thee: but thou and thy sonnes with thee shall minister before the Tabernacle of the Testimonie.* 1.395 They shall keepe the charge of all the Tabernacle, but they shall not come neere the instrumentes of the Sanctuarie, nor to the Altar, least they die, both they & you. Where you see the Priestes office so tied vnto Aaron and his sonnes, that the Leuites his brethren, and of his fathers familie, might watch and ward about the Tabernacle and minister vnto him and his sonnes that were priests, but not come neere the Altar nor any instruments of the Sanctuarie. How then could Moses be a Priest after Aaron was annointed, when the Priesthood was deliuered and confirmed to Aaron onely and his sonnes?

Phi.

Moses was a Leuite.

Theo.

Hee was Aarons brother,* 1.396 but the Priesthood was giuen to Aaron and his sonnes.

Phi.

He annointed Aaron and his sonnes.

Theo.

Not by his ordinarie function as a Priest, but by speciall

direction from God as a Prophet. For Aaron was called to that office, not by Moses but by God himselfe,* 1.397 as the Apostle testifieth, though hee were annointed by Moses handes.

Phi.

Moses might bee a Priest before Aaron was called.

Theo.

If Moses were a Priest, what needed an other to bee chosen? Why shoulde Moses bee depriued of his Priesthoode, hee no way displeasing nor offending God? Reason you shewe both his calling and his annoynting, before you chalenge the Priesthood for him.

Phi.

Da∣uid sayeth hee was.

Theo.

What Dauid sayeth, wee sawe before. The worde by Sainct Hieroms owne obseruation signifieth a Master or Ruler.* 1.398 Ira Iairites erat sacerdos Dauid, id est magister: sicut alibi scriptum est: filij au∣tem Dauid erant sacerdotes, id est magistri fratrum suorum. Ira the Iairite was a Priest of Dauids, that is a Ruler as it is elswhere written, the sonnes of Dauid were Priestes that is Rulers of their brethren.

Phi.

* 1.399Sainct Hierom and Sainct Augustine writing vppon this Psalme of Dauid affirme that Moses was a Priest.

Theo.

All that Sainct Hierom sayth is this: that Moses had the rule of the Lawe, and Aaron of the Priest-hoode, and that either of them did fore-shewe the comming of Christ, with a Priestlie kinde of proclamation: (Moses) with the sounde of the lawe, and (Aaron) with the belles of his garmentes. Where S. Hierom calleth the Propheticall function of Moses to teach the people the Lawes of God a Priestly kinde of proclaiming, and foreshewing that the Sonne of God should come in flesh to teach vs the will of his Father. Saint Augustine vseth the worde in like sense for that sacred seruice which Moses yeelded vnto God in reporting his Lawes and preceptes to the people. And therefore in the same place hee sayeth of Samuel, hee was made high Priest, which is expreslie against the Scriptures, if you take the worde Priest for him that was annoynted to offer sacrifices vnto God. For Samuel was but a Leuite and no Priest, much lesse high Priest. The sonnes of Samuel are reckened in the Scripture it selfe among the * 1.400 Le∣uites apart from the Priestes office and linage, and the high Priesthoode was long before * 1.401 giuen to Phinees and his house by couenant from Gods owne mouth, and in the dayes of Samuel was helde by * 1.402 Abiah the sonne of Abicub, who was directly of the discent of * 1.403 Phinees.

Sainct Augustine else-where debating this question of Moses and Aa∣ron, resolueth in doubtfull manner.* 1.404 Moses and Aaron were both high Priestes, or rather Moses (the chiefe) and Aaron vnder him: or else Aaron chiefe for the pontificall attyre, and Moses for a more ex∣cellent ministerie. And in that sense Moses may bee called a Priest, if you meane as Saint Augustine doeth, an interpreter of Gods will to Aa∣ron and others; which is the right vocation of all Prophetes that were no Priestes, and common to them all; saue that by a more excellent pre∣rogatiue than anie other Prophete of the olde Testament had: God spake to Moses * 1.405 mouth to mouth, and * 1.406 face to face, as a man speaketh vnto

his friend. But this doth not hinder his ciuill power which was to bee chiefe iudge and soueraigne executor of iustice among th••m, and by vertue thereof to put them to death that were offend ors against the law of God. And in his steede succeeded not Eleazar or Phinees the sonnes of Aaron, but * 1.407 Ioshua, and * 1.408 Iudah the captaines and leaders of Israel.

Phi.

Your collection of Samuel is not true.* 1.409 For God sent him to do sacrifice when he annointed Dauid, and therefore Samuel was a Priest.

Theo.

My col∣lection is grounded vpon the law of God. Samuel was none of the sonnes of Aa∣ron, ergo Samuel was no Priest, nor might not come neere the Altar to offer a∣nie sacrifice in his owne person.

Phi.

The Scripture s••yeth, * 1.410 He tooke a sucking Lambe and offered it for a burnt offering vnto the Lorde.

Theo.

You mistake the speech of the holy Ghost. So Iephtah saide, * 1.411 That thing which commeth first out of the doores of myne house to meete mee, I will offer it for a burnt offering: & yet Iephtah was neither Priest nor Leuite. So the Angell saide to Manoah, * 1.412 If thou wilt make a burnt offering offer it to the Lorde: and yet Manoah was of the tribe of * 1.413 Dan. Of Dauid that was no Priest the Scripture saith, * 1.414 Then Dauid offered burnt offeringes & peace offeringes before the Lorde. And againe, * 1.415 Dauid built there an Altar vnto the Lorde, and offered burnt offeringes and peace offe∣ringes: and the Lorde was appeased towarde the Lande. And like∣wise of Salomon, The * 1.416 king went to Gibeon to sacrifice there; a thow∣sande burnt offeringes did Salomon offer vppon that Altar. * 1.417 Thrise a yeare did Salomon offer burnt offeringes and peace offeringes vppon the Altar which hee built to the Lorde, and hee burnt incense vppon the Altar that was before the Lorde.* 1.418 Nothing is oftener in the Scrip∣tures than these kindes of speeches: by the which no more is ment, but that either they brought these things to be offered, or else they caused the priests to offer them. For in their own persons they coulde not sacrifice them, because they were no Priests.

In that sense the Scripture saieth of Saul, that * 1.419 He offered a burnt of∣fering at Gilgall before Samuel came, not that Saul offered it with his owne handes, as you before did fondely imagine, and sayde hee was de∣posed for aspiring to the spirituall function: but hee commaunded the Priest to doe it, who was then present in the host with the Arke of GOD, as the next chapter doth witnesse in two seuerall places.

Phi.

Then was Saul free from sinne when Samuel reproued him.* 1.420

Theo.

Sa∣muel reproued him for distrusting and disobeying God.* 1.421 For when God first aduanced Saul to the kingdom, he charged him by the mouth of Samuel to go to Gilgal and there to * 1.422 staie seuen daies (before he ventered to do any sacrifice) til the Prophet were sent to shewe him what hee shoulde doe: but he seeing his enimies * 1.423 gathered to fight against him on the one side, and his people shrin∣king from him on the other side, because Samuel came not; beganne to sus∣pecte that Samuel had beguiled him, and therefore vppon his owne

head against the commaundement of God, willed the Priest to goe forwarde with his sacrifices, and to consult GOD what hee shoulde doe. This secrete distrust and presumption against the charge which God had giuen him, was the thing that GOD tooke in so euill part: and since hee woulde not submitte him-selfe to bee ruled by GOD and expect his lea∣sure, God reiected him as vnfitte to gouerne his people. Neither did Sa∣muel chalenge him for inuading the Priestes office, but for not staying the time that God prefixed him, before the Prophet should come.

Philand.

* 1.424Wee reade in the booke of Numbers that the Captaine and all the people, were commaunded to goe in and out, that is to proceede in warres accor∣ding to the order of Eleazarus the Priest. Such were the warres of Abia & other kinges of Iudah, that fought most iustly and prosperouslie against the schis∣maticall Israelites, and iustly possessed the Cities which they conquered in those warres. As also Edom and Libuah reuolted from king Ioram for Religion; euen because hee forsooke the God of their forefathers, and coulde neuer bee re∣couered to the same againe. Wherein also the example and zeale of the children of Israell was verie notable; that they woulde haue denounced warre against the Tribe of Ruben and Gad, onely for erecting (as they tooke it) a schismaticall al∣tar out of the only place where our Lord appointed that sacrifice should be doone vnto his honor.

Theo.

Yee bee tried men to interprete Scriptures. The words which you applie to Eleazar the Priest, stande in the text * 1.425 indifferent to be re∣ferred either to God or to Ieboshuah, or to Eleazar: and you lustilie leaue out both GOD and the Magistrate, and will haue the Priest to bee the Master of the Musters.* 1.426 And did the wordes pertaine to Eleazar, no such power as you conceiue is thereby giuen to the Priest, to caulme and kindle warres when hee list, but onely to consult the Lord before his Arke, and to reporte backe to the Captaine and leader of the people, what the Lorde saide: that no warres might bee vndertaken without expresse war∣rant from God. This kinde of asking counsell at Gods mouth in their warres, you should finde exemplyfied in sundrie places of the olde Testament, as Iudges * 1.427 twentie, * 1.428 first Samuel fourteene, * 1.429 first Samuel twentie-three, * 1.430first Samuel thirtie. But in this case the Priest had no farther authority than to inquire at Gods mouth, and that hee did when the king commaunded him, which is far from licencing subiectes to rebell against their king, as you woulde haue it.

The warres of * 1.431 Abia the king of Iudah against Israell, were not of Subiectes against their Soueraignes, but of a lawfull Prince bearing the sworde, and thinking to recouer the kingdome of Israell, which Ro∣boam his father lost; from his enimies. Where you iustifie the warres of Abia against Israell more bouldly than wisely: GOD him-selfe pro∣hibiting the children of Iudah and Beniamin in the dayes of Roboam his Father to * 1.432 fight against the children of Israell their brethren, and

professing the diuision of the Kingdome to come from God and not from man.

If you saie that Abia sought not for the kingdome but for Religion, though his owne wordes * 1.433sound to the contrarie, knowe you that as Iero∣boam was starke naught, so Abia for all his crakes and your praises was little better. The holie Ghost, whose report wee must beleeue be∣fore yours, saieth, that hee walked in all the sinnes of his Father, which hee had doone before him, and that his heart was not right with the Lorde his God. And the sinnes of his Father are thus described in the Scripture:* 1.434 Iudah wrought wickednesse in the sight of the Lorde, and they prouoked him more with their sinnes, which they committed, than all that which their Fathers had doone. For they also made them high places, and images, and groues on euerie high hill and vnder euerie greene tree. There were also Sodomites in the Land that did according to all the a∣bominations of the people which the Lord had cast out before the chil∣dren of Israel. This was in the time of Roboam, & Abia walked in al his waies,* 1.435 and therefore lacked not much of Ieroboans wickednesse, though you make him a victorious & religious conquerour.

That Edom and Libuah reuolted from king Ioram, is verie true:* 1.436 but that their reuolt was either lawfull or for religion, that you proue not. Edom had no such respect; they were prophane persons and Infidels, and as soone as they sawe their time, they cast off the yoke which the kinges of Iudah had laide vpon them. But not long after in the raigne of Amaziah, they were meetely wel plagued by the king of Iudah for their reuolting, he smiting tenne thowsand of them with the sworde, and taking other tenne thowsand aliue, and casting them down from the top of a rocke that they burst al to peeces,* 1.437 thereby to giue them a iust recompence for their former rebellion.

The Scripture saith that Libuah, a citie of the Priests as appeareth by the first allotment made in the 21. of the booke of Ioshua,* 1.438 rebelled at the same time, but it commendeth their rebellion no more than it doeth the rebellion of Edom.* 1.439 It will be as hard for you to proue either of them did well, as that your selues may do the like. Leude deedes are reported in the Scripture as will as good: but not commended. No more are these.

Phi.

The text saith they did it, * 1.440 because (the king of Iudah) had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.

Theo.

The Scripture doth not set down the cause why they might lawfully doe it, but addeth this as a reason, why God suffered these troubles to fall on king Ioram. As if it should haue said, no maruell to see these rebell against him, for he had forsaken the God of his fathers. And if this were a fault in king Ioram to forsake the God of his fathers, as in truth it was, how can the priests of Libuah be excused for seuering themselues from the line of Dauid without warrant from God, &, that which was worse, from the temple & seruice of God established by expresse commandement at Ierusalem? If that be true which you say, that Libuah could neuer be recouered again to the king¦dom

of Iudah,* 1.441 your selfe conuince them of a pestilēt & wicked reuolt. For though they might pretend religion against king Ioram, yet against the godly kings of Iudah which followed, as Ezechia••, Iosias & others, they could pretend none: & therfore by your own confession it was no defection from Iorams idolatrie, but a plaine rebellion against the kingdom of Iudah, & an vtter renouncing the Al∣tar, Temple, & seruice of God at Ierusalē. Which, how it might stand with their duties to God & his law, we yet conceiue not: neither wil you euer be able to iu∣stifie that fact of theirs with all your cunning and eloquence.

The ten tribes * 1.442 assembled to sight with Ruben & Gad for building an Altar by Iordan against the commandement of God: and therein they did but their du∣ties. If you aske by what authority they did it, the answere is easie. Their com∣monwealth cōsisting of 12. tribes, & al indued with like soueraignty, ten might lawfully represse two without any farther warrāt, as after they did the Benia∣mits for that filthy fact of the men of Gibeah. But yet at this time Ioshua liued whom God himselfe had appointed captaine & ruler of the 12. tribes, & therfore besides that authority which the whole had ouer a part, & that in common regi∣mēt is sufficēt, there was a superior magistrate at the denoūcing of these wars: and though they had fought togither as equals, yet will not that example rati••ie the rebelling of subiectes against their Princes, which is your purpose.

Phi.

* 1.443Since Christs law & religion was establ••shed, diuerse great & honorable fights haue bin made for the faith against princes and prouinces that vniustly withstood and annoied the same.

Theo.

What warres haue bin for religion since the comming of Christ, if you meane between Prince & Prince, Realme & Realme, is bootles for you to seeke & needlesse for vs to answere. We dispute not what causes may iustly be pursued with battel, but what what persons are permitted to take the sword, & against whom. And vnto the time of Gregory the 1. (which compasse you take to bring vs some presidents of your doings) you can not shew that euer christian subiects did beare armes against their Princes for any quarrell of re∣gilion, & were allowed. Rebellions were rife in those ages as well as now: but we deny that the Church of Christ, or the godly Bishops of those times did euer consent, allow or like those tumults: much lesse procure them, or vse them for the safegard of their Sees, as you beare men in hand they did.

Phi.

* 1.444In old times of the primatiue church the christian Armenians lawfully defen∣ded themselues by armes against their Emperor Maximinus.

Theo.

You that feare not to depraue the scriptures, wil make no bones to corrupt & vitiate other Sto∣ries at your pleasures.* 1.445 The Armenians, being no subiects but confederats, whē Maximinus would haue compelled them to worship idols, & to that ende offered them force, resisted; as they lawfully might, & of fellowes & friends became strā∣gers & aduersaries. The words of Eusebius are very plaine for that purpose. Maximinus had also warre with the Armenians,* 1.446 who of long time before that had bin friendes & confederates with the Romanes. That people being christians & very deuoute, this hatefull tyrant attempting to force to the sa∣crifices of idols & diuels, made them of friends foes, & of collegues enimies.

Phi.

The Catholike people of diuers Prouinces haue often by force defended and kept their Bishoppes in their seates,* 1.447 against the Infidels; but specially against the com∣maundements of heretical Emperors: yea and resisted them in defence of their Chur∣ches, and the sacred goods of the same. As the Citizens of Antioche defended their Church, against the Emperour Galerius his officers.

Theo.

Your generall and voluntarie reportes wee may hardly trust,* 1.448 since your speciall instaunces be so corrupted and wrested. And could you shewe that which you speake of, as you can not, you must also proue it well done, or at le••t to haue beene liked and allowed of the Church of Christ before we can receiue it. The Apostles rule is strong against it:* 1.449 You must bee subiect not onely for wrath: but for conscience sake. Many thousand Martyrs, Bishoppes & others submitted themselues and endured the vilest torments that coulde bee deuised against them, as the ten persecutions of Christes Church vnder heathen Prin∣ces most clearly witnesse: that euer any of their subiects rebelled against those bloody persecutors in respect of religion, must be your care to shewe: Wee rea∣ding all the monumentes of those tymes verily find none, and by your silence it should appeare your selues know none: otherwise we do not thinke you woulde disfurnish your cause, and trouble the reader with impertinent matters.

That the Citizens of Antioch defended their Church with armes against the Emperour Galerius his officers, I find it writtē in no good Author, neither do you quote the place: that Storie you may put in your Legende as taken thence by most likelyhood. The temples of their bodies which were farre more precious, they did not defend from the furious and insatiable rage of Diocletian, & Maxi∣minus, but as well at Antioche, as in all other places subiect to the Romane Empire; the christian men & women mildly & gladly suffered those * 1.450 torments, deaths and * 1.451 shames, which in our eyes neither flesh could beare, nor nature brooke: so that wee haue cause rather to maruaile at their patience, than to mi∣strust their disobedience.

Phi.

S. Basil and S. Ambrose people, defended them against the inuasions of Heretikes.* 1.452

Theo.

After Valens the Emperour had twise decreed to banish S. Basil, and was the first tyme stopped of his course by the suddaine sicknes of his sonne and terror of his wife, and the second time by a straunge * 1.453 trembling of hande and heart as he was subscribing the sentence of deportation against him, hee neuer after offered to meddle with Saint Basill,* 1.454 but suffered him quietly to enioy his Bishopricke. Yet fell there out after this a contention betweene the Lieutenaunt of Pontus and Saint Basill, about the liberties of the sanctu∣arie for a Noble woman, that had taken the Church for her refuge, to saue her selfe from one that woulde haue forced her to mariage against her will. The Deputie required the woman to bee deliuered: the Bishoppe replied that hee might not violate the Lawes of GOD and man. The Deputie stomacking Saint Basill, and the more for his stout defence o∣therwise of the Christian faith, sent for the Bishoppe to his Tribunall, and

commaunding him to bee stript, threatned to whippe him, and to teare his flesh with Iron hookes.* 1.455 This indignitie the people could no longer abide, but seeing their Pastor thus shamefully handled without the Emperours commandemēt or knowledge, vpon the priuate displeasure of a Deputie for the liberties of the Church established by the Romane Lawes, the whole citie, men and women fell to an vprore, and were like enough to haue done the Deputie some mis∣chiefe, but that Saint Basil with much adoe repressing the people, deliue∣red his persecutor from that perill. This is the true report of Saint Ba∣sils case euen out of the same author which you auouche, Gregorie Nazi∣anzene.

Their griefe you see was not against the Emperours power or fact, but a∣gainst the malice of a Lieutenant presuming vpon a priuate grudge without a∣ny warrant from the Prince, not onely to doe that which the Emperour in his owne person had refrained,* 1.456 but in most spitefull and seruile manner to abuse their Bishop against all order of Lawe: And this tumult S. Basil neither pro∣cured nor praised, but asswaged with his presence, and offered himselfe to the Deputies pleasure.

Of S. Ambrose wee spake before by occasion, and thither we send you. It is most vntrue that the people of Millan either did, or might take armes against the Emperour;* 1.457 though hee were then but a child, and therefore might make no Lawes for Religion, or otherwise, without Theodosius ioynt Emperour with him, & in possession of the scepter before him. Which exception, neither S. Am∣brose, nor other godly bishops vsed against him, but submitted themselues with al meekenes, when in reason they might haue taken this aduantage. Of the peo∣ple S. Ambrose himselfe giueth this testimonie. In singulis vobis Iob reuixit, in singulis sancti illius patientia & virtus refulsit. Quid enim praesentis dici potuit a vi∣ris Christianis, quàm quod ••odie in vobis locutus est Spiritus sanctus? Rogamus Au∣guste, non pugnamus, non timemus, sed rogamus. Hoc Christianos decet. In euery one of you Iob is aliue againe; in eche of you his patience and vertue shined. What coulde bee sayde fitter by Christian men than that which the holy Ghost this day spake in you? We beseech, O Emperour, we offer not armes. Wee feare not (to die,) but we intreate (thy clemencie.) This beseemeth Chri∣stians to desire tranquillitie of peace & faith, but to bee constant in the truth euen vnto death. And for his part, when hee heard that his Church was taken vp by the (Emperours) souldiers,* 1.458 he fet only somewhat the deeper sighes & sayd to such as exhorted him to goe thither, deliuer vp my Church I may not, but sight I ought not.* 1.459

Phi.

But the people were in a commotion: which appeareth by that S. Ambrose answered when they willed him to asswage their furie, It lay in him not to incite them, but hee had no meanes to represse them.

Theo.

Truth it is that the people flocked to their Churches, and chose rather to bee slaine in the place, than to leaue them vnto Arians. But that they offered armes, or at∣tempted any force either for S. Ambrose or against Valentinian, is a manifest

vntrueth. The merchaunts were amerced and emprisoned:* 1.460 the Nobles were hardly threatned, and S. Ambrose himselfe charged as with a sedition, and yet all the violence that was offered was this. The people passing from one Church to an other met a Chapleine of the Arrians, and some vnruly persons, as in such heates it can not otherwise be chosen, beganne to illude and abuse the man; but the Bishop presently sent his Priestes and Deacons, and rescued him from that iniurie: which yet the Emperour tooke so grieuously that hee layd a num∣ber of them in Irons and imposed a great mulet vpon the whole Citie to bee paide within three dayes. Farther force was none offered by the people of Mil∣lan, and yet of that small disorder Saint Ambrose saith, If they thought him to bee the inciter (or stirrer) of the people they should straightway reuenge it on him, or banish him into what wildernesse they would. And to that end, * 1.461 he departed home to bed to his owne house, that if any man woulde haue him into exile, he should find him readie.* 1.462 Had you beene there, you would not onely haue set the people against the Prince, but encouraged the subiect to pul the yong boy by the eares, and to teach him better manner against an other time to meddle with Bishoppes: and it grieueth you to see Ambrose so faint hearted as you take it, that when so fit opportunitie serued him and the rest, they would giue no president to rebel against Princes: which is the thing you seeke to proue, and long to doe.

Phi.

Not the people only, which may doe things of headynes without counsel or con∣sultation:* 1.463 but the bishops of Countries so persecuted by heretical Princes haue iustly re∣quired helpe of other Christian kings.

Theo.

If the multitude of Christians in the primatiue Church for all their rashnes and headynes were afraid in respect of the Apostles doctrine to rebell against Powers,* 1.464 whom shall you perswade that their religious and godly Pa∣stours were firebrands of sedition? If they taught others to obey, with what conscience could they themselues resist? Or rather with what face do you slaun∣der them with that they neuer did?

Phi.

Holy Athanasius:* 1.465 (who knewe his duetie to his soueraigne wel enough & in what case he might resist him) asked ayde against Constantius the Arrian the first heretical Emperour (whom Pope Felix declared to be an heretike) of his owne brother Constance Catholike Emperour of the West. For feare of whose armes the said Ar∣rian restored Athanasius and other Catholike Bishops to their Churches and honours againe, though after this Catholike Emperours death the other more furiously persecu∣ted Athanasius than before.

Theo.

Hee that neuer sounded the fidelitie and honestie of Iesuites afore this time may take hence his light howe to trust them in other cases. Did Athanasius aske ayde (of armes) against Constantius the Arrian?

Phi.

For feare of armes the saide Arrian restored Athanasius and other Catholike Bishoppes to their Churches and honours againe.

Theo.

But did Athanasius moue Con∣stans so to doe?

Phi.

Hee asked ayde of Constans against his brother Con∣stantius.

Theo.

But did hee aske that ayde, to bee restored by armes? For of

that ayde we now dispute, & that aide must you meane, if you wil say ought to the purpose.

Phi.

He accepted it, and therfore it is likely he requested it.

Theo.

You would proue by this example that Athanasius (who knew his dutie to his soueraigne well enough, and in what case he might resist him) not only vsed but asked (forci••le) ayde against Constantius of his owne brother.

Phi.

So he did.

Theo.

Be you well in your wittes to auouch it with such confidence?* 1.466

Phi.

Why should wee not?

Theo.

Why should you not? Athanasius himselfe, when that very point was ob∣iected to him, not only abiured it as false, but detested it vnto Constantius as a wicked and vngodly part for himselfe to haue stirred brother against brother. What extreme boldnes was it then for you to fasten that on him which hee defieth and forsweareth?

Phi.

Where doth he so?

Theo.

Where you might soone haue found it, but that you thought to haue brought the matter frō words to blowes before this tyme.

* 1.467It was layd in his dish by Constantius amongst other things after the death of Constans, that he prouoked and incited his brother against him, and that hee resisted the Princes precepts. To this Athanasius answereth in his Apologie to Constantius: I am not mad, I am not besides my selfe, O Emperour, that thou shouldest suspect, I had euer any such thought. And that made mee say nothing to it, when others questioned with me about it, lest whiles I la∣boured to cleare my selfe, some perhaps would make a doubt of it. But to your highnesse I answere with a loude and plaine voyce, and with my hand held out, as I learned of the Apostle, I cal God to witnes against my soule, & as it is written in the book of kings, I sweare, the Lord can beare me record, and his annointed, (your brother:) (suffer me I beseech you so to say) I neuer made mention of you for any euill before your brother of blessed memorie, I meane that religions Emperour Constans; neither did I euer stirre him vp against you as these * 1.468 (Arrians) do slaunder me; but contrariwise whensoeuer I had accesse vnto him, he himselfe recounted your gratious inclination; and God knoweth what mention I made of your godly disposition. Suffer me and pardon me most curteous Prince. That seruant of God Constans (your brother) was not so open nor so lent his eares to any man, neither was I in such credite with him, that I durst speake a woorde of any such matter, or derogate from one brother before an other, or finde fault with a Prince, in the hearing of a Prince.* 1.469 I am not (so) mad, neither haue I forgotten the voyce of God, which sayth, Curse not the king in thine heart, nor backbite the mightie in the secretes of thy chamber. For the birdes of the aire shall tell it, and the fowles which flie shall betraie thee. If the thinges which be spoken in secrete touching you Princes can not bee hid; what likelyhoode, that I in the presence of a Prince, and so many standing by, would say any thing of you otherwise than well?

And shewing how oftē he spake w^t the Emperor Cōstans & in whose presēce, & to what effect, which were to lōg to repeat, he concludeth:* 1.470 I beseech your high∣nes (for I know well the force of your memorie) call to mind my behauiour

when it pleased you to admit me to your presence, first at Vimimachum, then at Caesarea, and thirdly at Antioch, whether I did so much as offer an euil word of Eusebius my bitter enimie, or gaue a displeasaunt speach of any my pur∣suers. If then I refrained my tongue when I was to plead against them in mine own defence, what madnes had that beene for me to traduce an Emperor before an Emperour, and to stirre vp one brother against an other?

What thinke you? Doth not Athanasius reiect that which you would father on him, as a manifest vntrueth; nay as a villanous and frantike attempt to set brethren together by the eares, and to stirre warres betweene Princes? Why then doe you burthen a godly Bishop with that which he neuer thought; and which he was farthest from? Why make you Athanasius your rest for rebelli∣on against Princes, whereas hee thought it vnlawfull in hart to curse a cruel & hereticall Prince? How farre he did, & said he was bound to obay Constantius, his owne wordes wil testifie, and therefore no reason we beleeue your vaunting and facing that he procured warre against Constantius, when he himselfe affir∣meth the contrarie.* 1.471 They lay to my charge, saith he to the same Prince, that I obayed not your precepts, by the which it was enioyned me that I should depart from Alexandria.* 1.472 I neuer resisted the commandements of your high∣nesse: no no: God forbid I should. I am not he that will withstand the Go∣uernour of any Citie: much lesse so great a Prince. Truly I prepared to de∣part: for so Montanus (your messenger) knoweth, that vpon the receit of your letters, if your grace vouchsafed but to write, I might presently bee gone, & with my readines to obay preuent your rescript.* 1.473 For I am not so madde as to thinke I may contradict such preceptes. With what forehead then can they say, I obaied not powers? Neuer recken this man for a resistant that so many wayes protesteth and confirmeth his obedience to Princes: learne you ra∣ther to follow his submission, and draw him not against his own both deeds and wordes, to be of your faction.

Phi.

The people of Alexandria were twise or thrise in an vprore about him: first vnder Constantius, and after vnder Valens.

Theo.

The people of Alex∣andria were very tumultuous, and raised many horrible garboyles both in the Church and common wealth. Socrates saith of them, Populus Alexandrinus prae alijs populis seditionibus delectatur, & si quando occasionem seditionis fuerit nactus ad intolerabilia mala prorumpit, nec sine sanguine sedatur. The people of Alex∣andria delight in sedition more than other Cities, and if at any time they catch any occasion to make a tumult, they runne headlong to foule out∣rages, and neuer end but with blood. The selfe same report Euagrius gi∣ueth of them:* 1.474 The people are soone stirred and easilie incited to a tumult, most of all others they of Alexandria: who by reason of their great number, & those obscure persons, and of all sortes, are insolent, rash, bold, and in furie will venter on any thing.* 1.475 Lamentable examples whereof you may reade in the stories of the church, describing the horrible fights and slaughters that were between the Iewes, Gentiles, and Christians of that Citie, as wel against the

trueth as with it. And therefore in these populous and tumultuous Cities, if you did shew some insurrections of the people for their pastors, it would doe you no great good. Men haue raised tumults in al ages, and that doth iustifie re∣bellion in you,* 1.476 no more than Cains sword dipt in his brothers bloud at the first beginning of the world, and neuer since drie, doth warrant theeues to take mens liues by the high waies side; yea rather lesse: for they kill to supplie their needes, you to reuenge your grifes: they vnhorse priuate men, you vn∣throwe Princes: they rifle howses, you spoile kingdomes: they fly vpon the fact, you stand to the defence of it before the whole world.

Farre from this affection were S. Basil and S. Ambrose, as euen now wee saw: and Athanasius as farre, if you dare trust him on his oth: if not, you shall shift him neerer by his acts.* 1.477 When he saw the people of his Church grudge (at the Emperours precept to remoue him from his seat) and readie to take weapon in hand, hee departed the citie. Under Valens the people of that citie likewise resisted and would not suffer any violence to be offered Atha∣nasius by the Captaines,* 1.478 vntill the Emperours pleasure were precisely knowen touching Athanasius. In so much that the multitude flocking together, and a great hurlie burlie rising in the Citie, a sedition was feared. When the people some daies after was appeased Athanasius by night closely con∣ueigheth himselfe out of the Citie. Others saie that foreseeing the rashnes of the multitude, and fearing least he should seeme to be the author of that euill which might ensue, he hid him selfe all that time in his fathers tumbe. Thus when hee might haue beene defended by the people, hee would not: and because they suffered him not to depart from them by day, hee frale from them by night, and left his Bishopricke to be disposed by the prince.

* 1.479The like did Chrysostome in his troubles. For when the people knew (of his deposition) they brake out into an vprore, and would not suffer those that had it in charge from the Emperour to carrie him into banishment. Chrysostom fearing least any other crime should bee fastned on him, either that he did not obay the Emperour, or that he stirred the people to sedition, the third day after his depriuation priuilie leaueth his Church and yeeldeth himselfe to be caried into exile. So that by S. Chrysostomes iudgement it is first a fault in a Bishop,* 1.480 not to obay the Prince, next it is an other fault to stirre the people to sedition, be the cause neuer so good, as Chrysostomes was not badde.

Phi.

Likewise against Valens the Arrian Emperour; Petrus successour to Atha∣nasius and brother to S. Basil, did seeke to the Pope of Rome for succour, as al other afflicted Bishoppes and Catholikes euer did.* 1.481

Theo.

The Bishop of Rome in those daies was neither so mightie that he could, nor wicked that he would assist subiects with armes against their Soue∣raignes. Peter Bishop of Alexandria brought letters from Damasus Bishop of Rome,* 1.482 allowing his election and Confirming the same: the people vpon that spying their time, displaced Lucius an Arrian, and receiued Peter their right

Bishoppe.

Phi.

And what was this but resistance to the Prince?

Theo.

Resist they might and did, but not with armes.

Phi.

Which way then?

Theo.

By refusing his communion, disobeying his iurisdiction, and withdrawing their duties from him, & yeelding the same to Peter as to their lawful and true Bishop.

Phi.

Socrates sayth the people taking courage expelled Lucius, and set Peter in his place.* 1.483

Theo.

They might driue him away, and make him forsake the Citie though not with armes. But whatsoeuer the people did against Luci∣us in their heate,* 1.484 hauing, as I noted before vnto you out of the same writer, a very sharp and seditious humour, and being miserably handled by Lucius, as scourged with whippes, their flesh torne with hookes, and diuersly tormen∣ted with fire vnto death: the letters of Damasus incited them to no such thing, but onely approued the election of Peter.

Phi.

But Peter, it shoulde seeme, allowed the people in their enterprise, for by their tumult he recouered his Bishopricke.

Theo.

You must not imagine rebellions, where none are written. The people draue Lucius from the See, being an intruder, an heretike, and a murderer, other tumult the Storie doth not mention.

Phi.

The Prince had placed Lucius there.

Theo.

The election of Bishops in these dayes belonged to the people and not to the Prince, and though Valens by plaine force placed him there,* 1.485 yet might the people lawfully reiect him as no Bishoppe, and cleaue to Peter their right Pastor.

Phi.

Might they reiect him with armes?

Theo.

I said not so.

Phi.

But so they did.

Theo.

That must you proue: we find no such thing in the Storie, neither of Socrates nor Sozomene.

Phi.

Socrates sayth they expelled him.

Theo.

But not with armes.

Phi.

Do you thinke hee would yeeld without force?

Theo.

Do you thinke any great force needed for a whole Citie to expell one man? But why come you with thoughts when you should bring vs proofes? That hee was expelled, wee graunt:* 1.486 but whether it were done by forsaking, threatning, compelling, or inuading him; the Storie doeth not expresse, neither may you suppose what you list without any proofe: Had they assaulted him with armes, it had beene as easie to haue slaine him there; as to haue driuen him thence: but no doubt Peter their Bishoppe, kept them from that, which Mo∣ses a conuert of the Saracenes, not long before bitterly reprooued in Lucius.

Phi.

You meane Moses the Moncke that Mauia the Queene of the Sara∣cens required to haue for the Bishopppe of her Nation, whose fayth the Bishoppe of Rome confirmed in the same letters with Peters election.

Theo.

I doe.

Phil.

What of him?

Theo.

When hee was brought to Lucius to bee made Bishoppe; hee sayde,* 1.487 I thinke my selfe vnworthie of this function: but if it bee profitable for my Countrie that I take it, Lu∣cius shall neuer lay handes on mee (to make mee Bishoppe:) for his right hand is embrued with blood. Lucius answering that he should not raile, but

first learne what religion he taught. I aske not a reason, sayth Moses, of thy religion, thy doings against thy brethren conuince what religion thou hast. A christian doeth not strike,* 1.488 doeth not slaunder, doeth not fight. The ser∣uant of God may not fight. But thy woorkes openly shewe themselues by those whome thou hast banished, whom thou hast cast to bee deuoured of beasts and consumed with fire. If Moses thus abhorred Lucius for fighting and striking, what would hee haue sayd to Peter for bearing armes and rebel∣ling, if he had beene so good a warrier as you make him?

Phi.

* 1.489So did Atticus Bishop of Constantinople craue ayde of Theodosius the yonger against the king of the Persians that persecuted his Catholike subiects,* 1.490 and was thereby forcibly depriued, and his innocent subiects deliuered.

Theo.

The christians of Persia being barbarously persecuted by Bararanes an Infidel, and put as Theodorete sheweth to straunge and * 1.491 vnusuall tor∣ments, fled their Countrie, and sauing themselues within the Romane Domi∣nion, besought the Christian Emperour they might bee harboured within his land and not bee yeelded vnto the furie of their king. The Persian presently sent Legates to haue them backe that were departed his Realme.* 1.492 Atticus the Bi∣shoppe of Constantinople * 1.493 opened their cause to the Emperour, and labou∣red what he could for them. Theodosius the Emperour woulde not deliuer them, as being suppliants to him, and no offendours against their king, but only that they professed the Christian Religion: and hauing besides iust * 1.494 cause to make warre vpon the Persians for that they spoiled his merchants and woulde not restore his Goldminers, which they hired of him, bid open battell to them, and caused the king to be glad with peace, and to * 1.495 cease his persecution against the Christians.

* 1.496Here is nothing for your purpose; vnlesse you say that subiects may rebel for Religion because straungers may bee harboured for religion, which were a mad kind of conclusion. The Persians asked not armes against their King though a Tyrant, but refuge for themselues; neither did they assault their Prince on the one side when the Romanes inuaded on the other, but with praier expected what end God would giue.

Atticus was no subiect to the king of Persia: and therefore whatsoeuer hee did against a straunger and an enemie, is no president for subiects to do the like to their Princes; and yet all that he did was this;* 1.497 Atticus Episcopus supplicantes cupidé suscepit, & totus in eo erat, vt pro viribus, ipsis succurreret, & Imperatori Theodosio, quae gererentur significauit: Atticus the Bishoppe embraced their re∣quest (for themselues) with great good will, and laboured what hee could to helpe them, and signified their state to Theodosius the Emperour.

* 1.498Theodosius was a lawfull magistrate, and had other, and those iust causes to warre vpon the Persian, and in that hee refused to deliuer the profugient and innocent Christians to the slaughter, hee had the Lawe of nature and nati∣ons for his defence. And lastly the king of Persia was neither depriued of his kingdome, as you falsely report, nor his subiects discharged frō their obedience:

but a peace concluded wherin the King was contended to cease from pursuing the Christians.* 1.499 All this you shall find, not in the second booke as you quote, but in the seuenth where * 1.500 Socrates describeth the occasion and conclusion of this Persian warre. From him Nicephorus taketh his light, and more than Socrates said before he neither doth nor could affirme.

Phi.

So did holy Pope Leo the first,* 1.501 perswade the Emperour, called Leo also, to take armes against the Tyraunt of Alexandria for the deliuerie of the oppressed Catholiques from him and the heretiques Eutichians:* 1.502 who then threw downe Churches, and Monasteries, and did other great sacrileges. Whose wordes for examples sake I will set downe.* 1.503 O Emperour (saith Sainct Leo) if it be laudable for thee to inuade the heathens, how much more glo∣rious shall it bee to deliuer the Church of Alexandria from the heauie yoke of outragious heretiques, by the calamitie of which Church all the Christians in the world are iniuried?

Theo.

Leo was so holy that hee neuer taught any man to beare armes a∣gainst his Prince:* 1.504 and yet it did nothing hurt his holynes to pray the Empe∣rour to pursue with due punishment the wicked vprore that was made in A∣lexandria by Timotheus an heretike, that placing himselfe in the Bishoprike, and killing Proterius the true Bishoppe at the font in the Church: caused the carkas by some of his faction to bee drawen along the streetes in a rope, and to bee so cutte and mangled that the very intrayles drayled vpon the stones, and the rest of the bodie to bee burnt and the ashes scattered into the ayre.

That villanous and diuelish fact, Leo the Bishoppe of Rome beseecheth Leo the Emperour with all seueritie to reuenge, assuring him that it is as glorious a conquest before Christ to punish such outragious heretikes,* 1.505 as to represse miscreantes and Infidels. But howe this shoulde serue your turnes wee can not imagine. Will you reason thus? Leo the Bishoppe of Rome perswaded the Emperour to chastise some of his subiects that were heretikes and murderers, Ergo the people may assault their Prince with armes. Take heede left Timotheus heresie and furie reuiue in you again, if you fal to liking such consequents.

Phi.

In briefe;* 1.506 so did S. Gregorie the great moue Genadius the Exarch, to make warres specially against heretikes as a very glorious thing.

Theo.

You speake truer than you are ware of.* 1.507 In deede Gregorie the great wrate to Genadius the Exarch in the selfe same sense that Leo before did to Leo the Emperour, which is that Magistrates ought to resist and pu∣nish the aduersaries of Christes Church, as well as the troublers and distur∣bers of the Common-wealth; neither is there any difference in their writings or meanings, saue that Leo wrate to the Prince himselfe, and Gregorie to his Deputie.

And since you be come to Gregorie,* 1.508 it is high tyme you begin to awake and remember your selfe that for sixe hundreth yeeres you haue not, nor can

not shew vs any one example, where heretical Prince, was deposed, or subiect allowed to beare armes against his Soueraigne. Which is a sufficient con∣uiction that Pagans and heretikes were all this while honoured, obeyed and endured by the Church of Christ, if they were Princes. Or if that collec∣tion bee not good, heare Saint Augustines confession of him that was the ve∣ry worst of them, I meane Iulian the Apostata: and learne that they which suf∣fered and obeyed him,* 1.509 woulde neuer resist nor rebell against any. Iulianus exti∣tit infidelis Imperator, nonne extitit, Apostata iniquus, Idolatra? Milites Christiani seruierunt Imperatori infidels. Vbi veniebatur ad causam Christi, non agnoscebant nisi illum qui in caelo erat. Quando volebat vt idola colerent, vt thurificarent, prae∣ponebant illi Deum. Quando autem dicebat producite aciem, ite contra illam gen∣tem, statim obtemperabant. Distinguebant Dominum aeternum a Domino tempo∣rali, & tamen subditi erant propter Dominum aeternum, etiam Domino temporali. Iulian was an vnbeleeuing Emperour:* 1.510 was hee not an Apostata, an oppres∣sour and an Idolater? Christian souldiers serued that vnbeleeuing Emperor. When they came to the cause of Christ, they would acknowledge no Lord but him that is heauen. When hee woulde haue them to worshippe Idoles and to sacrifice, they preferred God before their Prince. But when he said, goe foorth to fight, inuade such a nation, they presently obeyed. They distinguished their eternall Lorde from their temporall, and yet were they subiect euen vnto their temporal Lorde, for his sake that was their eternall Lord and master.* 1.511 The like testimonie your Law bringeth out of S. Ambrose. Iulian the Emperour though hee were an Idolater, had yet vnder him Christian souldiers: to whom when hee sayd, goe, fight for the defence of the common-wealth, they did obey him: but when hee sayde, goe fight a∣gainst the Christians, then they regarded the Emperour in heauen (be∣fore him.)

Phi.

* 1.512The holy Bishoppes might most lawfully (and so sometymes they did) excom∣municate the Arrian Emperours, and haue warranted their Catholike subiects to de∣fend themselues by armes against them: But they alwayes did not so; because they had no meanes by reason of the greater forces of the persecutours. As there no que∣stion but the Emperours, Constantius, Valens, Iulian, and others might haue beene by the Bishoppes excommunicated and deposed, and all their people released from their obedience, if the Church or Catholiques had had competent forces to haue resisted.

Theo.

* 1.513Uayne shiftes you haue brought vs many, but none vayner than that which here you broche. You vndertooke to shewe vs auncient exam∣ples that Princes were iudicially deposed by Priestes, and impugned with armes by their owne subiectes: You bee nowe come to the vttermost pitch of Antiquitie, and finding your selfe not able to bee as good as your worde, you tell vs that though Bishoppes did it not, yet they might most lawfully haue warranted their Catholike subiectes to defend themselues by armes, against (the Arrian Emperours.) But sir, you were to bring vs their examples what

they did, not your vants what they might haue done. The point we began with, was; what Bishops in this case might doe. You to shew what they might doe, pro∣mised vs the particulars of auncient ages what they had doone: and hauing perused six hundered yeeres after Christ, and perceauing no such deede doone, you come with a returne at the last, that though they did it not, yet they might haue doone it, whereas we rather collect they might not doe it, because they did it not. For had it beene most lawful, as you say; we can proue it most need∣full they should haue doone it.* 1.514 The blaspheming of Christ, the murdering of his saincts, the seducing of many thousand soules, (which things were not only committed by their meanes, but also maintained by their power, that were suffered to beare and vse the sword for the strengthning and establishing of their error;) were causes sufficient to moue the Bishops to doe▪ what they lawfully might to preuent these mischifes, and saue the Bishops you cannot from the blemish of permitting and increasing the pestilent heresies of Arius and others, if they did not what they might in dewtie to withstand, and depose those Princes that were the chiefe Patrones of those impieties.

Phi.

There is no question but the Emperours Constantius,* 1.515 Valens, Iulian, and others might haue beene deposed by the Bishops and all their people released from their obedience, if the Church or Catholiques had had competent forces to haue resisted.

Theo.

You falsely and wickedly slaunder the Martyrs of Christs church,* 1.516 when you auouch they wanted not will, but power to resist their Princes. The Christians had forces sufficient and many fit opportunities offered them to set those hereticall Emperours besides their Seates, and woulde not. Constans the West Emperour was of power sufficient to haue repressed Constantius his brother, for feare of whom Athanasius was restored to his Bishoprike by Con∣stantius, and with whom if the Catholikes of the East would haue but ioyned themselues, it had beene most easie for them to haue taken the Scepter from Constantius.

When Constans was slaine, Magnentius the Tyrant surprised all Italie, subdued Affrica and Lybia, and had Fraunce in subiection: and the souldiers of Illyricum erected Betranion against Constantius; in which distresse if the Christians would but haue forsaken Constantius and not ventered their liues for him, he must haue beene depriued of the West Empire, if not of the East also. Athanasius being charged that he with others secretly by letters incited this Magnentius, to take armes against the Emperour, answered as I shewed you before:* 1.517 Cast not this suspition, O Emperour, vpon the whole Church as though such things were written or thought on by Christian men, and specially by Bishopes. The like occasion was offered the Christians to dis∣place Constantius when Gallus,* 1.518 who was both Cesar and next to the Crowne beganne to aduance himselfe to the Empire; but they tooke it, as you see by Athanasius wordes, to be no Christian mans part to thinke on bearing armes against their Emperour though an hereticke.

* 1.519Of the Christian souldiers vnder Iulian you hearde S. Augustine say they * 1.520 serued their temporall Lorde (though an Idolater and an Apostata) not for lacke of force to resist, but for respect of their euerlasting Lorde in heauen. Otherwise the Christian souldiers had Iulian in his voyage against the Persi∣ans farre from home and from helpe, and might haue done with him what they woulde; and yet they chose rather to spend their liues for him, than to lift vp their handes against him; and the Christian worlde in his absence stirred not a∣gainst him, but with patience endured his oppression and with silence expected his returne.

Phi.

They were heathen souldiers that were with Iulian in the Persian warres.

Theo.

Their owne words testifie they were christians, for when Ioui∣nian the next day after Iulians death was chosen Emperour by them, & refused the place, because he thought the most part of the souldiers to be Gentiles, * 1.521 they cried al with one common voyce and confessed themselues to be christians.

* 1.522Against Valens, the church of Christ had forces abundant, if shee would haue sounded or vsed them. For all the tyme of his raigne not onely the West Em∣perours were Catholikes, first Valentinian and after him Gratian, but Pro∣copius at Constantinople taking armes against Valens, and the Gothes de∣tayning all Thracia from him,* 1.523 gaue the Christians great aduantage to haue shaken him cleane out of the East Empire: if their willes had beene answerable vnto their strength.

* 1.524Valentinian the yonger infected with Arianisme, Maximus a rebell of this land thrust quite from the West Empire & made him flie into the East partes, and had not Theodosius a Catholike Prince, conquered that Tyrant and re∣stoared the yong Prince to his Scepter againe, he had lost his Crowne for euer. Where you see not only what forces the Catholikes had, but howe farre they were from deposing hereticall gouernours, that woulde hazard their liues to restoare them.

* 1.525And what thinke you was the force of all the christians in the worlde, when the people of one Citie falling into a sedition for matter of Religion so pre∣uayled and passed all the power of resisting, that Anastasius the Empe∣rour was faine to come to an open place without his Crowne, and by heraults to signifie to the people that he was readie with a very good will to resigne the Empire into their handes? At the sight of whom, the people moued with that spectacle chaunged their mindes, and besought Anastasius to keep the Crowne, and promised for their partes to be quiet. Yet was Anastasius both an heretike and an excommunicate person, if your owne words before, or stories otherwise may be trusted.

Not therefore disabilitie but dutie, not lacke of competent forces, but a re∣uerent regarde of the Apostles Doctrine kept the Primatiue Church of Christ from resisting her Princes. Shee neuer determined, shee neuer at∣tempted any such thing: shee might often tymes haue repelled them from their Seates and woulde not, but taught all men to submitte themselues,

and rather to bee crowned as martyrs for enduring, than to bee punished as re∣bels for inuading their Princes. For * 1.526 they that resist, shall receiue iudge∣ment, which not onely the auncient Christians but the very Barbarians did confesse. Athanaricus king of the Gothes, when hee came to visite Theo∣dosius,* 1.527 Sine dubio, inquit, Deus terrenus est Imperator, contra quem quicunque manus leuare nisus fuerit, ipse su•• sanguinis reus existit. No doubt, sayth hee, the Emperour is the God of the earth, against whom, whosoeuer will offer to lift vp his hand, is guiltie of his owne blood.

Phi.

Yea the quarel of Religion and defence of innocencie is so iust that heathen Princes not at all subiect to the Churches Lawes and discipline may in that case by the Christians armes bee resisted,* 1.528 and ••ight lawfully haue beene repressed in tymes of the Pagans and first great persecutions, when they vexed and oppressed the faithful; but not otherwise (as most men thinke) if they would not annoy the Christians, nor vio∣lently hinder or seeke to extirpate the true fayth and course of the Gospel. Though S. Thomas seemeth also to say that any heathen king may be lawfully depriued of his su∣perioritie ouer Christians.

Theo.

What S. Thomas seemeth to say wee care not, so long as we know what S. Paul sayth:* 1.529 and that is, You must bee subiect, not onely for feare of wrath, or lacke of force, when you can not choose, but euen for conscience sake, though you were able to resist. If your schooles haue gotten any other doctrine than this, looke you to that: wee bee the disciples of Christ, and not of Occam, Scotus, or Thomas; men may by this perceiue what your schoolemen would ad∣uenture in other pointes of Religion, that in so cleare a case of conscience and o∣bedience, they woulde flatly contradict the holy Ghost.* 1.530 Heathen Princes may not bee resisted by their Christian subiects: of them Saint Paul wrate when hee sayde, Whosoeuer resisteth power, resisteth the ordinance of God; and of them Christ spake, when hee charged vs to giue vnto Caesar, the things which are Caesars. They might not therefore lawfully haue beene repressed in the tymes of the Pagans and first great persecutions when they vexed and oppressed the faithfull, because sufferance made their subiects martyrs before God, whome resistance would haue doubbed for rebels against God and man.

If your meaning bee, that by Christian Princes, (had there been any such in those dayes,* 1.531) they might lawfully haue beene repressed and pursued with armes, you alter the question, and touch not our case: Wee reason not what Christian Princes may doe to heathen Tyrants, but what duetie Christian sub∣iects must yeelde to their Princes, bee they Pagans or others that beare the swoorde. And for that wee haue the manifest voyce of Gods spirite which I haue often repeated, and against the which wee giue eare to no creature, man nor Angel.

That voyce the church of Christ diligently remembred, and constantly fol∣lowed, as Tertullian witnesseth. * 1.532 Wee are disfamed, sayth hee, concerning the Emperours maiestie, but neuer yet Albinians, Nigrians nor Cassians, (Albinus, Niger, and Cassius being rebels in his tyme) could bee found to be

Christians. A Christian is enemie to no man, much lesse to the Prince: whom he knoweth to be appointed of God▪ & so of necessitie must loue, reuerence, and honour him, and wish him safe with the whole Romane Empire. There∣fore wee sacrifice for the health of the Emperour, but vnto our God and his God, and with chast prayer, as GOD hath commaunded.* 1.533 So that wee pray for the Emperours health more than you, asking it of him that is able to giue it. And God forbid we should take those thinges which we suffer, in euill part, since wee desire to suffer them, or imagine any reuenge against you, which wee waite for at Gods leasure. Yet needefull it is wee lament your case, since not a citie of yours shall escape at Gods hande for the shed∣ding of our blood.

* 1.534And againe in his Apologie for all Christians: Thou that thinkest we haue no care of the welfare of our Princes, looke vppon the woordes of GOD, I meane our bookes, which neither wee suppresse, and many chaunces bring to your eyes. Knowe, that there wee are commaunded for the plentifull en∣crease of our charitie to pray to God for our enemies, and to wish wel to our persecutours.* 1.535 Yea namely and plainely he sayth, Pray for kings, for Princes, and powers, that all things may bee peaceable (vnto them.) For the Em∣pire can not bee shaken but wee also must bee partakers of the fall. And after some woordes, But what speake I more of the religion and pietie of Christians towardes the Emperour? Whome wee must needes reuerence as one that our Lorde and master hath chosen. And to speake the trueth, Caesar is rather ours (than yours) as being ordained by our God. And giuing a better reason for their obeying than you can for your warring: We are saith hee, the same men to our Princes that wee are to our neighbours. To wish euill, to doe euill, to speake euill, to thinke euill, is indifferently forbidden vs towardes all men. Wee may do that to no man, which (we say) we may not to our Prince: and if to no man, so much the lesse to him that is so highly aduanced by (our) God.

This is sounder and seemelier doctrine for Christians than that which you bring vs out of Thomas Aquinas. And where you will vs by the note in your margin to See S. Thomas a Saint of your making, wee will you to See S. Paul and S. Peter Saints past all doubting.* 1.536 You see the continuall obedience of Christes Church, so long as Pagan and heathen Princes had the sworde. Shee taught that all men, and most of all Christians, shoulde loue, reuerence and honour heathen Princes as ordayned by God, to beare the swoorde, euen by the God of Christians, and that they might neither wish euill, doe e∣uill, speake euill or thinke euill of any such Powers, much lesse resist them with armes and depriue them of their superioritie ouer Christians, as your new saint seemeth to say.

And lest you thinke the Christians of those times serued and honoured hea∣then Princes rather for feare than for conscience, (which is an open slaunder to them, and a lewde shift of yours, directly thwarting the woordes of Saint

Paul,* 1.537 You must be subiect not because of wrath only, but also for conscience sake.) You shall heare Tertullians report in the same place what forces the christians had, if they had thought it lawfull or godly to resist when they were cruelly vexed and oppressed.* 1.538 One night, saith he, with a few fierbrands, would yeeld vs reuenge sufficient, if it were lawfull with vs to requite euill with euill. But God forbid, that either they, which take part with GOD, shoulde reuenge themselues with humane fier, or be greeued to suffer, wherein they be tried. If we would not practise secrete reuenge, but pro∣fesse open enmitie,* 1.539 could we lacke nūber of men, or force of armes? Are the Moores think you, or the Parthians, or any one nation whatsoeuer, mo in nū∣ber than wee, that are spred ouer the whole world? We are not of you, & yet we haue filled al the places & roomes which you haue; your Cities, Ilands, Castles, townes, assēblies, your tents, tribes and wardes, yea the very Palace, Senate, & iudgement seates. For what warre were wee not able and readie, though wee were fewer in number than you that goe to our deathes so gladly, if it were not more lawfull in our religion to be slaine than to slea? We could without armes neuer rebelling, but only diuiding our selues from you haue doone you spite enough with that separation. For if so great a multitude as we are should haue broken from you, into some corner of the world, the losse of so many Citizens woulde haue both shamed you, & puni∣shed you. Beleeue me you would haue bin afraid to see your selues left alone and amazed, as amongst the dead, to see silence & desolation euery where. You woulde haue had moe enemies,* 1.540 than inhabitauntes, where nowe you haue fewer enemies by reason of the multitude of your Citizens that are almost all Christians. Within two hundreth yeeres after Christ, the beeleeuers, as you heare by Tertullian, wanted neither number, strength nor courage to resist or reuenge their persecutours. What numbers and forces then had they foure, fiue, sixe hundreth yeeres after Christ, when they were backed by Princes, defended by Lawes, and prouoked with fauours and honours to professe Religion? and yet all that while, neither vnder Pagans, nor Arrians, did they, or woulde they resist with armes, but yeelded their liues with all submission, though they wanted neither meanes, nor multitude con∣uenient for any warres.

Phi.

Howsoeuer that bee;* 1.541 plaine it is that kinges that haue professed the fayth of Christ and the defence of his Church and Gospell, may bee and haue beene iustly both excommunicated and deposed for iniuries done to Gods Church and reuolt from the same; as sometimes also for other great crimes tending to the pernition of the whole people subiect vnto them.

Theo.

You presume more in seuen lynes than you are able to prooue in seuen yeres. That Popes haue attempted to depose Princes, and for the per∣fourming of their enterprise haue shaken the Church with horrible schismes and wearied the worlde with slaughter and bloodshed wee knowe full wel, you neede not vrge it. But that they iustly did, or might depose Princes which is

the point we striue for, though you affirme it to bee plaine, wee denie it to bee true: and therein the paune of your bare credit, if you knew not so much before, we take for no good euidence in this cause.

Phi.

* 1.542To speake specially of matter of religion, and the crimes therevnto belonging: Leo the third was excommunicated and depriued of all his temporalities in Italie by Gregorie the second. For defect also in Religion and of the Churches defence, were the Greeke Emperours discharged, and the Empire translated to the Germanes by Pope Leo the third. As afterward diuers German Emperors for notable iniuries doone to Gods Church, for sacrilege, and for heresie; by godly discipline of the Church, and by the diligence of sundrie Popes, haue beene brought to order, or in fine deposed; or els where they would not obay Christs Vicar, either in themselues, or in their posteri∣tie haue beene notoriously by God confounded. As Frederick the first, Fredericke the second, Otho the first, Lewes, the third, Lewes the fourth, and whom we name last (because we must say some thing more of him) Henry the third (or as some call him) the fourth, by Gregorie the seuenth; which example the Libeller and other heretiques most mention; for that the saide Henry so obstinatly resisted (though other∣wise by the inuincible courage and constancie of the Pope often brought to penance and extremitie) that in fine by armes he draue the saide Pope out of his Sea; and pla∣ced an Antipape:* 1.543 that is to say, one so opposite to Christs Vicar as Antichrist shall be against Christ▪ which by armes and Patronage of this wicked Emperour, vsurped and occupied the Apostolical throne against the true Pope Gregorie the seuenth, whom the Libeller (after the vulgar vaine of rebellious heretiques) voutsafeth not the name of Gregorie the seuenth, but calleth him commonly Hilde∣brand: as the heretiques when they were in armes in Germanie against their Emperour,* 1.544 would not name him Charles the fifth, nor Emperour, but Charles of Gaunt.

Theo.

* 1.545Finding no president for the Depriuation of Princes within the first sixe hundred yeeres after Christ, you goe lower to get somewhat for your purpose: and within the next foure hundreth yeeres you name vs one that was not depriued of his Empire, but denyed his reuenues in Italie by the re∣bellion of the souldiers and Citizens of Rome, Rauenna, Venice, & other pla∣ces against him.

Phi.

* 1.546The Greeke and Latine writers doe consent that this was Gregories act. Zonaras sayth, Gregorie which then ruled the church of olde Rome refu∣sing the fellowship of the Bishoppe of newe Rome, & of all that were of his opinion, wrapped them together with the Emperour in a Synodical excō∣munication, and stayed the tribute which til that time was paied to the Em∣pire: and made a league with the Germanes.* 1.547 Vrspergensis sayth, Gregorie the Pope of Rome prohibited any tribute to bee giuen to the Emperour out of the Citie of Rome or out of Italie.* 1.548 Frisingensis hath the like, Gregorie the Pope warning the Emperour often tymes by letters, and finding him incorrigible perswaded Italie to reuolt from his Empire. And so Sigebert,* 1.549 Gregorie reprooued Leo the Emperour for his error, and turned both the

people of Rome and the tribute of the West partes from him. Moe I coulde bring you, but these are enough.

Theo.

You speake truer than you are ware of. The rebellion of the Italiās against Leo the thirde was like enough to be Pope Gregories act.* 1.550 For the Bi∣shops of Rome were then Malcontentes, to see the Bishops of Constantino∣ple liue in such wealth, ease, and honor, and themselues neglected by the Greeke Emperours and afflicted dayly by the Lumbardes. And therefore I thinke they were forwarde enough to kindle the people against their Prince vppon the least occasion that might fall out. And that may be the meaning of those Greeke and Germane writers which you bring, that the Bishop of Rome occasioned or secretly incouraged the rebellion of Italie against Leo: But that he tooke vpon him in those dayes to be the deposer of Princes, as now he doeth, or that he openly shewed or pleaded his vniuersall and supreme power to dispose king∣domes, which is the thing that you shoulde proue, that I denie: and therein your owne stories, as well the elder as the later sort of them, that otherwise be very partial, will iustifie my speech.

Diaconus aliue in those dayes, saieth: Leo the Emperour tooke the ima∣ges of Sainctes at Constantinople and burnt them,* 1.551 and commaunded the Bi∣shop of Rome, if euer he looked to haue his fauour, to do the like. But the Bishop refused to doe it, and all the souldiers of Rauenna and Venice resisted this precept with one consent, and but that the Bishop of Rome prohibited them so to doe, they had attempted to make an other Emperour ouer them. Regino, that liued 200. yeres before Sigebert, Frisingēsis, Vrspergensis or Zo∣naras, saith the same.

Blondus a diligent searcher and reporter of antiquities,* 1.552 where partiall affe∣ction doth not blinde him, saith: The Emperour dealt by faire meanes at first with the Bishop of Rome, if hee woulde haue his fauour, to pull downe and burne the images in all places of Italy as he had done in the East. Upon this precept of the Emperour, first the citizens of Reuenna, then the people and souldiers of Venice brake into an open rebellion against the Emperour and (his deputie) the exarch, and laboured to the Bishop of Rome, and to other cities of Italie to abrogate the Empire of Constantinople and to chose one of Italy or Rome for their Emperour: and the rebellion went so farre, that re∣iecting Magistrates which the exarch had appointed,* 1.553 euerie citie and euery towne beganne then first since the inclination of the Romane Empire to create and elect Magistrates of their owne, which they called Dukes. But Stephen the Bishop of Rome repressed that attempt of the Italians to choose a new Emperour because he hoped Leo would vppon better aduise hereafter forbeare such enormities. Yet the rebellion of the people of Rome, and of o∣ther persons in Italie went forwarde, and euerie day increased against the Emperour. Nauclerus agreeth with Blondus, saue that hee maketh Gregorie the seconde then Bishoppe of Rome, when Blondus nameth Stephen.

* 1.554Platina telleth his tale this way. Leo the Emperour, the thirde of that name, when hee coulde not haue his will at the Bishop of (Rome) proposed an edict that all men vnder the Romane Empire, shoulde take out of their Temples the images of all the holie Martyres, and Angels, for auoiding of idolatrie as hee sayde: and who so did not, hee woulde accompt him for an open enimie. Gregorie (the seconde) not onely obeyed not, but also warned all the Catholikes, (so your adherentes call themselues, though they be nothing lesse than Catholikes) that they shoulde not fall into that errour for any feare or precept of Prince.* 1.555 By the which exhortation the people of Italie were so animated, that they lacked verie little of chosing themselues an other Emperour: but Gregorie interposed himselfe to staie them by his au∣thoritie from doing it.

Sabellicus adding a thirde cause why the people of Rome and Italie were sore greeued with the Emperour, and with-helde their tribute, and not long after diuided the Empire, which was the continuall impugning of them and preuailing against them by the Lombardes without any helpe from the Graecians.

Leo, sayth he, prayed (the Bishop of Rome) friendly that following his example, he would raze the images of Saints out of al the temples (in Italie.) Wherin the Bishop not only would not gratifie the Prince, but wrote vnto al the churches that they should continue their most ancient custome. That procured Leo passing hatred amongst other Nations but chiefly among the Italiās,* 1.556 insomuch that the people of Rome began to consult of the choise of a new Emperour within Italie, and the heartes of all Italie were ioyned with them in that attempt, and that consent of theirs had broken foorth into an open defection, had not the Bishop of Rome enterposed his authoritie, and restrained the fiercenesse of his citizens by mollifieng them and admonish∣ing them to persist in their former duetie to the Emperour, when as that cō∣spiracie had alreadie so preuailed; that Marinus the ruler of the citie & his son the president of Campania being slain by the people, & the Exarch like∣wise murdered at Rauenna, the cities & commons had chosen for themselues new Magistrates.

* 1.557Aeneas Syluius, euen when hee was Pope Pius the seconde speaking oft his vprore made against Leo the thirde saieth: To this rebellion the Bishoppe of Rome did not consent, hoping that Leo would be better ad∣uised.

* 1.558If the report of other Writers be not sufficient, the letters of Gregory the 2. & Gregory the 3. wil witnesse no lesse: the one writing in the 7. yeare of Leo, the other, in the 23. which was the last yeare of the raigne and life of Leo the 3. where they call him not onely Emperour but most religious Lord: which could not bee▪ if for his impietie they long before had forsaken his obedience as Zona∣ras the Monke imagineth.* 1.559 Gregorie the 2. endeth his letters with, Imperante Domino pijssimo Augusto Leone, à Deo coronato, magno Imperatore, imperij eiu••

anno septimo. In the 7. yeare of the raigne of the great Prince crowned by God,* 1.560 Leo the Emperor (our) most gracious Lord. Gregorie the thirde writeth, Im∣perante Domino pijssimo Augusto Leone, Imperij eius anno vicesimo tertio. In the 23. yeare of the raigne of (our) most religious Lord Leo the Emperor.* 1.561 Both which letters Marianus Scotus remembreth with their dates in his accompt of times and yeares. If Leo the last yeare of his life were called religious Lorde and Emperour by the Bishop of Rome: how can it be true, that either of the Gregories forsooke his obedience and depriued him of all his dominions in Ita∣lie, long before his death?

Who stirred this rebellion against Leo the thirde, I will not dispute: The Graecians had good cause to suspect the Bishop of Rome, and to thinke him to bee the verie author and contriuer of it, as Zonaras doeth: but that which hee did was closely doone vnder hand, by conspiring priuily with other places and inciting the people by secret meanes to reuolt from the Empire.* 1.562 As for a∣nie open and apparant act, hee was so farre from taking vppon him to de∣priue the Emperour by iudiciall sentence in his Consistorie, that hee durst not bee knowen in this tumult to stande with the people, or fauour their doinges by any publike aide or consent, but seemed rather to staie them by his persuasion, and to labour against that defection of theirs in the sight of others as your owne Stories doe confesse. And therefore you may proue, if you will by this example a rebellion of the Romanes against their Prince, which the Bishoppe of Rome neither did, nor durst auouch; but deposition of Princes by the Popes censures, which is the point that we demaunde, you can not proue by this or any other president in the West partes for a thowsande yeares after Christ.

Phi.

You can not deny but that for defect in religion and of the churches defence the Greeke Emperors were discharged and the Empire translated to the Germanes by Pope Leo the thirde.

Theoph.

That the Empire was deuided I doe not denie,* 1.563 but that it was doone for defect in religion, or that the Pope alone of his abso∣lute authoritie did it, both these I denie: and therein though certaine Monkes and Friers of yours do slubber vppe the matter, and attibute the do∣ing thereof to the Popes sole and soueraigne power: yet the truer and ex∣acter writers of your owne side do witnesse the contrary.

And that first it was not doone for any defect in Religion,* 1.564 the time, when it was doone, will declare. The seconde Councell of Nice was celebrated in the eight yeare of Constantine and Irene, as the first ses∣sion of the Councell doth specifie: Where not only the Legates of Adri∣an Bishoppe of Rome say of them-selues, Nos postquam ab Apostoli∣co Patre nostro Adriano litteras accepissemus, eas ad pios nostros Impe∣ratores pertulimus, The letters which wee brought from our Aposto∣like Father Adrian wee deliuered to the handes of our religious Empe∣rours, (Constantine and Irene.) But Adrian him-selfe writing to them

by name,* 1.565 saith: Being lately by your godly cōmandemēt aduertised of your pleasure, we offred praiers & thanks to almightie God for your Empire. And growing to an end, Haec sunt serenissimi & pijssimi Imperatores: These are the things most gratious & godly Emperors, which we haue gathered out of the Scriptures, &c. the which by our Apostolike relation we present to the good affection of your Maiesties with all humilitie and sinceritie: beseeching your clemencie and as it were kneeling in your presence, and prostrate before your feete, I with my brethren make supplication & request to you in the sight of God,* 1.566 that keeping the tradition of this your most holy & blessed church, you wil detest the wicked rage of heretikes that you may imbrace this catholike and Apostolike church of Rome which is yours, without dis∣solution. At this Synode Constantine and Irene were acknowledged by A∣drian and his Legates for Emperours of Rome: and after this Synode til the diuision of the Empire, there was no change of religion in Greece, but the af∣fayres of the church stoode in the same state in which they were at the time of this Synode. And sure it is that Irene was wholy addicted to images, for by her helpe this councel was kept & images restored: and yet in her raigne, when she alone had the rule of all, the Empire was diuided. So that religion can not be pretended for the translation of the Romane Empire from the Greekes to the Germanes.

Againe the maine consent of your Stories is; that the Senate and people of Rome did concur with the Bishop in this action, & their decree that he should, and request that he would crowne Charles for their Emperour, are expressely remēbred in the most of your writers, otherwise deriuing al the power they can in these and such like cases to the Bishop of Rome. Platina and Blondus saie it was done, Populi Romani scito ac precibus: by the decree and request of the people of Rome:* 1.567 Nauclerus saith it was done, populi Romani consensu: with the consent of the people of Rome: Sabellicus saith, Scito rogatu{que} populi Romani. The Pope did it by the determination and petition of the people of Rome. Auentinus sayth, Pontifex, Senatus, populus{que} Romanus, imper••um transferre, iure suo in Germanos Carolum{que} tacito Senatus consulto, plebiscito{que} decernunt. The Bi∣shop, Senate, and people of Rome, conclude by a decree of the Senate and people secrete among them-selues, to remoue the (Romane) Em∣pire, and in their owne right to deriue it vnto the Germanes and vnto Charles.

* 1.568Sigebert shewing the time, and adding the cause, sayth: Romani qui ab Im∣peratore Constantinopolitano iam diu animo disciuerant, nunc accepta occasionis op∣portunitate, quia milier excaecato Imperatore Constantino filio suo eis imperabat, vno omnium consensu Carolo Regi Imperatorias laudes acclamant, eum{que} per manus Le∣onis Papae coronant, Caesarem & Augustum appellant: The Romanes, which in heart were long before fallen from the Emperour of Constantinople, taking this occasion and opportunitie that a woman, which had pulled out the eyes of her owne sonne the Emperor, had gotten the Dominion ouer thē,

with one generall consent proclaime king Charles for their Emperour and crowne him by the handes of Pope Leo, and salute him as Caesar and Empe∣rour (of Rome.) Frisingensis saith of her:* 1.569 Digna cuius diebus orbis imperium quod in manus faeminae non dignè deuenerat, ad Francos transferretur. She well de∣serued that in her dayes the Empire of the world, which came into the handes of a woman by so vile meanes, shoulde be translated to the Ger∣manes.

Aeneas Syluius giueth an other cause that moued them no lesse, than this.* 1.570 Demum verò negligentibus Romam Graecis, eam{que} nunc Barbarorum, nunc aliorum direptions relinquentibus, populus ille Romanus, qui suo sanguine tantum pararat im∣perium, qui suis virtutibus Monarchiam fundauerat orbis, venientem in auxilium eis Carolum magnum Francorum Regem, qui vrbem sacra{que} loca ab omni hostium incursione defendit, concurrente summi consensu Pontificis Caesarem salutauit: The Princes of Greece beginning to neglect the citie of Rome,* 1.571 and to leaue it to the spoile of Barbarians and others, the people of Rome which with their blood had gotten so great an Empire, and with their vertues established the Monarchie of the world, saluted Charles the great king of Germanes (as he came to helpe them, and had defended the citie and temples from all in∣uasiōs of enemies) for their Emperor, not without the consent of the Bishop of Rome.

So that the wiser sort euen of your owne fellowes do neither pretende reli∣gion, nor the Popes supereminēt power ouer al kingdoms, for the translation of the Empire as you do, but set it down as an Act done by the general consent and authoritie of the Bishop, Senate and people of Rome for meere ciuill res∣pectes. And at the time of their defection from the Grecians, they neither de∣priued Prince,* 1.572 nor pretended any Papall censure for the matter; but abhor∣ring to see a wicked woman (that had thrust the right heire and her own sonne from his throne, and pulled out his eyes) to inuade and holde the Monarchie of the world by iniurie and tyrannie, they reiected her as an vsurper and disposed otherwise of their owne state by electing a new Emperour.

Phi.

They would neuer after bee vnited againe to the Grecians.

Theo.

You range without your bondes. The diuision of the Empire so long as it was nei∣ther for matter of religion,* 1.573 as I haue proued, nor doone by the Popes Aposto∣like power, as your owne companions graunt, but by the consent of the whole state of Rome, either for displeasure to see themselues neglected in their miseries by the Grecians, or for disdaine that a wicked Tygresse vsurped the Empire without all right, is nothing to your question; and therefore whether it were lawfull or vnlawfull for the Romanes so to doe, can doe you no more good, thā it can doe vs,* 1.574 to proue that the Queene of England, or the king of Fraunce may depose Princes, because either Realme had long before that seuered and disioyned themselues from the Romane Empire, and had by this time, when the Romanes fell awaie, peaceable and absolute regimentes of their owne.

Phi.

These Countries were conquered, and so by the Lawe of armes diui∣ded from the Empire.

Theo.

So could we say that Italie was conquered first by the Lombards, and after by Charles, who tooke their king captiue, and by the lawe of armes inherited his crowne. But wee stand not on that as being without our compasse: it sufficeth to confute you that the Empire was diuided by the Romanes for earthly respectes, as appeareth by the confession of your owne fellowes, & not any Prince deposed by the Popes authoritie for default in matter of religion. You heard before what Aeneas Syluius said: Blōdus, Sa∣bellicus, Nauclerus and others report the like occasion and reason for the Ro∣manes diuiding the Empire.

* 1.575Aistulfus king of the Lombards, sayth Blondus: inuaded and spoyled the partes of Italie that belonged to the Romanes. The Bishop of Rome did his best with giftes and intreaties to pacifie the wicked king; and when hee perceiued it did not auaile him, hee wrote to Constantine the Empe∣rour, and shewed him in what state the Citie of Rome and all Ita∣lie stoode, assuring him that vnlesse hee did ••ende helpe, the Citie and the whole Countrie would bee subdued by Aistulfus: The Em∣perour moued with the earnest petition of Gregorie▪ (the thirde) wrote to Aistulfus, but his Legates brought nothing backe from Aistul∣fus but wordes, and those sharpe enough. The Bishoppe hearing this and seeing no good doone, called an assemblie of the whole people of Rome,* 1.576 and there at their earnest motion and request resolued to deale thus with the Emperour, that vnlesse hee woulde succour the Citie and Countrie in this extremitie with his presence and armie, they woulde seeke some other waie to saue and defende themselues. The messengers were skant gone, but Aistulfus sent Heraultes to menace the Bishoppe and people of Rome, that vnlesse they woulde yeelde them∣selues and the Citie, hee woulde come and take them by force, and kill man, woman, and childe. The Pope did not cease with presents and promises to winne Aistulfus to continue the league which hee had begunne with the Romanes.* 1.577 And when hee laboured in vaine, and the messenger which was ••ent to the Emperour neither returned, nor gaue them any hope of ayde (from the Empire) TOGITHER WITH THE PEOPLE OF ROME HEE DETERMINED to desire the helpe of the king of France.

Sabellicus putting Stephen where Blondus doeth Gregorie, sayeth: Not long after Aistulfus tooke Rauenna, which when the Bishoppe of Rome by Legates required to haue restored, the Lombarde not one∣lie refused, but with great threates willed them to tell the Bishoppe and people of Rome, that except they did render their citie and whole Dominion into his handes, hee woulde shortly come and subdue them with armes, and kill them euerie one. Stephen amazed with these terrours of warre gaue counsell to sende to Constantinople, whence they

which were sent signified by letters that there was no looking for helpe from Constantine, either for that hee would not or coulde not, and there∣fore they must seeke some other waie.* 1.578 The Bishoppe appalled with these letters, dealt with the people that some might be sent into Fraunce to king Pipine. Nauclerus and others saie the same, insomuch that when Aistulfus streitly besieged Rome three monethes and wasted all that was rounde about it with fire and sword, Blondus saith, Dum tantis fluctuat angitur{que} vel detri∣mentis velpericulis Roma & Italia, Constantinus Imperator nullam subueniendi cu∣ram suscepit. Whiles Rome and Italie tottered and was ready to sinke vn∣der these ruines and hazards, Constantine the Emperor had no maner of care to relieue them.

This neglect of their calamities, not religion, made the Romanes seeke and take all opportunities to forsake the Grecians. I speake of the people, not of the Pope:* 1.579 for hee had deeper reaches and other purposes in laying this plotte, and those were the bettering his state and inriching him-selfe with the spoyles of the Empire, and aspiring to bee free from the Prin∣ces checke, to whom till that time hee was wholy subiect: which were the chiefe intentes of his first ioyning with the Germanes. And therfore when he was once sette at libertie from the yoke of the Grecians and indued with a good part of the Emperours reuenues in Italie, hee neuer left practi∣sing till hee brought the Romane Scepter to nothing, and himselfe to this height that we now see him in, by the finall ruine and subuersion of the East & West Empire.

Phi.

Might the people of Rome forsake the Grecians that bare the sworde?

Theo.

Looke you to that. You may proue them rebelles,* 1.580 if you bee so disposed; you can not proue the Bishoppe of Rome to be the deposer of Princes. That which was done had the common consent, & was the publike Act of the Romane state, when there was no disagreement in religion between them & Irene; but a dislike for lacke of conuenient aide in their distresses as some affirme, or else a discontentment to see that furious woman vsurpe the imperial dignitie, and no lawfull successour left to vindicate the same out of her hand, as others seeme to saie.

What-soeuer the cause was that mooued the Romanes; the Empire a∣mongest the Grecians at that time went neither by succession nor election, but they were fallen to cutting of throates, and hee that was mightiest tooke the sworde. Iustinian the yonger was depriued of the Empire and banished,* 1.581 and his nose cutte off by Leo the seconde: and Leo the seconde thrust from the throne and imprisoned by Tiberius the thirde. Against them both when Iustinian had preuailed and recouered his crowne and put them to death, Philippicus in open fielde slue Iustinian, and gat his place: but kept it not long. For Arthemius the next yeare after tooke from him the Scep∣ter, and both his eyes. Theodosius sawe that, and hee sette Arthemi∣us besides the stoole, and with maine force of armes made him of a Prince a

poore Priest, and was him-selfe within one yeare serued of the same sauce by Leo the thirde. This wretched tumbling for the Empire by rebellion and murder might prouoke the Romanes to giue eare to the Popes priuate whis∣perings: and when they saw Constantine the sixt the last of Leoes line depriued both of his kingdome and eyesight by his owne mother, to forsake her as well as the Grecians did after depriue her,* 1.582 and close her in an Abbay; but that I e∣steeme not, so long as the Pope by the power of his keyes did not diuide the em∣pire, for defect in religion, as you vainlie auouch.

Phi.

Many writers witnesse with vs that the Bishop of Rome translated the Empire.* 1.583

Theo.

Wee doe not denie but the Bishop as a principall part of the citie and policie of Rome had a stroke therein, and gained well thereby: but that he did it by his Priestly power as Peters successour, and not rather the people and the Bishop ioyning togither with their common aduise and authori∣tie as a politike state, that you shall neuer proue.

Phi.

What had the people to doe with translating the Empire?

Theo.

Nay what had the Pope to do with disposing the temporall sworde?* 1.584 The Romane state and Common-wealth had as good right to dispose the Romane Empire, as all other christian & heathen kingdoms and countries had to settle the sword and scepter that raigned ouer them. And since all other nations, once members of the Romane Empire, were suffered to plant those seuerall formes of regi∣ment which they best liked, and when the right heires failed, to elect their own Gouernours, I see no cause why the Romanes might not prouide for them∣selues, as well as other Realmes had done before them, specially if the pur∣portes of your Stories be true, that they were neglected by the Grecians whē they were besieged by the Lombardes, and the scepter at Constantinople wēt not by discent or succession, but by violent and wicked inuasion and sedition; but that the Bishop of Rome by his Priestly keyes, or Apostolike power did or might dispose the Empire, that we denie: And if any of your side to flatter the Pope, make report that he did it of his absolute power, and iudiciall authori∣tie, wee little esteeme such stragglers: as hauing the generall consent of your best authours and chiefest pillours for the contrarie.

Phi.

The chiefest of our side are against the most of your assertions. You holde opinion that Leo the thirde was not depriued of all his temporalities within Italie by Gregorie the second:* 1.585 and yet Platina and Nauclerus say, that Gregorie put him Imperio simul & communione fidelium, both from his Empire & from the communion of the faithful.

Theo.

This they say of Gregorie the thirde, not of Gregorie the 2. as you do: but it can be true of neither. Naucle∣rus by and by reciteth Epistle of Gregorie the thirde written the same yeare that Leo the Emperor died, where he calleth him Dominū pijssimum, Augustū Leonē: most religious Lord, Leo the Emperour. Sabellicus leaueth out the word (imperio) as vnlikely to be true, & saith that Gregorie the thirde magno Cleri, populi{que} consensu piorum communione priuat:* 1.586 put the Emperour (Leo) frō the communion with the consent and liking of the clergie and laitie. Blon∣dus

holdeth hardly that Gregorie the third was not Bishop of Rome, whiles Leo the thirde had the Empire.

Againe the Empire could not be translated in the time of Leo, but Constan∣tine his sonne must likewise lose the same; his father taking him into the socie∣tie of the crowne the fourth yeare of his empire, and writing seuen where Con∣stantine wrote foure, as appeareth by the letter of Gregorie the seconde to the Germanes, and Bonifacius * 1.587 othe and contestation before the same Gregory. Now to Constantine * 1.588 the sonne of Leo did the Bishop of Rome sende both * 1.589 letters and Legates for helpe against Aistulphus when he besieged Rome, as to the right owner, protectour, and Emperour of that citie. And therefore it must needs be false that Platina saith, the tutele of the church was remoued from the Emperors of Cōstantinople to others by this Gregorie in the raign of Leo: for so much as * 1.590 Blondus, Sabellicus and Nauclerus witnesse the de∣fence of the citie against the Lombardes was craued at Constantines handes by those whom Platina placeth after Gregorie.

And the chiefest reason which hee giueth of this transferring the defence of the church is most false. Gregorie deriued it to others, sayeth hee,* 1.591 maximè quod vrbem regiā aegrè Leo à Saracenis tutaretur: chiefly because Leo was hard∣lie able to defende his owne citie (of Constantinople) from Saracens: where∣as the Saracens besieged not Constantinople but the * 1.592 first yeare of Leo, before his edict against Images came foorth: and Luitprandus besieged Rome not (Interim) as Platina sayeth, but a long time after: and the Bishoppe of Rome sent first for helpe into Fraunce not when Luitprandus, but when Ai∣stulphus besieged him: and then hee sent not vnto Charles as Platina woulde haue it, but to Pipine the father of Charles, with many such errours which conuince Platina to bee a verie indiligent and insufficient writer in this point.

Nauclerus contented him-selfe with the wordes of Platina,* 1.593 & searched no farther: which Sabellicus perceiued to bee so repugnaunt to the course of o∣ther Stories, that hee sayeth, Neque tempora legentibus, neque rerum ordo constare liquid•• potest. It is hard for the reader to distinguish either the times or the order of those thinges which were doone, by reason Platina in these wordes runneth so on heade against the rest. And therefore you shall pardon vs for receiuing a man of meane iudgement, and one that writeth verie negligently of these affaires, before the rest, that purposely and largely trea∣ted of those matters as neere as they coulde get the knowledge or come by the likelihood of those actions.

These bee your presidentes for the depriuing of Princes betweene sixe-hundreth and a thowsande yeares after Christ. Other or better you haue not, and these you see, bee verie slender.

Phi.

Wee coulde alleadge more, but you will shift them, as you doe these.

Theo.

Wee shift not, when wee reproue the partiall and corrupt reportes of your owne fel∣lowes by better and elder testimonies. Moe if you haue, you neede not spare.

Philand.

Philippicus was depriued of the Empire by the Bishoppe of Rome: and so was Childerike of the kingdome of Fraunce.

Theoph.

Your Law doeth not sticke to boast that * 1.594Zacharias deposed Childerike King of Fraunce, and placed Pipine in his roome.

Philand.

So hee did.

Theo.

Who sayth so besides you?

Philand.

Platina sayeth; Eius autho∣ritate regnum Franciae Pipino adiudicatur. By Zacharies authoritie the kingdom of Fraunce was adiudged vnto P••pine. And Frisingensis affirmeth that Pipine was absolued by Pope Steuen from the othe of allegeance,* 1.595 which he had giuen to Childerike, and so were the rest of the Nobles of Fraunce; and then the king being shauen and thrust into a Monasterie, Pipine was an∣noynted king: which you thinke much the Pope shoulde doe in our dayes.

Theoph.

Sette aside your helping and interlacing the Storie, and I see no cause why Zacharie shoulde bee thought by his Apostolike power to haue deposed Childerike.* 1.596

Philand.

Deposed hee was.

Theoph.

But neither for religion, nor by the Popes Consistorie.

Philand.

For the cause of his deposition I will not greatly striue. Our Lawe sayeth hee was deposed, Pro eo quod tantae potestati inutilis erat, for that hee was vnfitte for the kingdome, but sure Pope Zacharie deposed him.

Theoph.

Sure you bee deceiued. Pope Zacharie was then of no such accompt that hee coulde depose Princes. Hee was consulted whether it might lawfully bee doone or no, but farther than so the Bishoppe of Rome did not in open sight intermedle with the matter, what∣soeuer his priuie practises were: though many of your Monkes and Bishops to grace the Pope, doe make it his onely Act.

Philand.

In all these cases our Stories are against you; and no reason wee credite you, to discre∣dite them.

Theoph.

I desire you not to credite mee: and giue me leaue to doe as much for you: but if your owne Stories make with vs, I see no cause you shoulde discredite them.

Philand.

We doe not.

Theoph.

You may not.

Then touching the persons which did the deede: Sabellicus sayth, Proceres Regni & populi amplexi Pipini virtutem,* 1.597 pertes••{que} regis amentiam, Zacharia Ro∣mano Pontifice prius consulto, regis appellatione Childerico adempta, vt spes etiam regni adimeretur in clerum detondent, Pipinum regem creant. The Nobles & Commons (of Fraunce or Germanie) imbracing the valour of Pipine and ha∣ting the foolishnesse of their king, hauing first consulted Zacharie Bishop of Rome, tooke from Childerike the name of a king, and to cutte him from all hope of aspiring to the crowne, they sheere him a Monke, and elect Pi∣pine for their king. Blondus saieth, I finde in Alcuinus, Paulus, and diuerse others, which wrote the Actes of the Francks, that the Nobles and Commōs of that Nation duly considering the worthines of Pipine, & sottishnes of Chil∣derike, consulted Zacharie the Bishop of Rome, whether they should tolerate so folish a king any lōger,* 1.598 & defraud Pipin of his deserued princely honor; & when the Bishop made answere, that he was (best worthy) to be king which could best discharge the dutie of a king: the Frākes with the publike consent

of the whole Nation pronounced Pipine for their king; and Childerike was shorne and made a Monke.* 1.599 Nauclerus saieth: The Franckes elected Pipine for their king by the publike consent of the whole Nation: which is all one with that Blondus sayeth,* 1.600 They declared or pronounced him for their king. And this is the reason that your owne gloze limiteth your Lawe in this sort, Deposuit, id est deponentibus consensit: Zacharie deposed Childerike, that is he consented to those which deposed him.

Phi.

The most of our Stories saie,* 1.601 hee did it.

Theoph.

Your Stories are very forwarde to attribute euerie thing to the Pope that may any waie in∣crease his power. And it may be the Pope had an oare in that boate more than euerie bodie well perceiued. For Pipine was the man on whome the Pope wholy relied, and whose power hee afterwarde vsed to quaile the Lombards, and defeate the Grecians; that the Pope and Pipine▪ might diuide the spoyles of the West betweene them. And therefore I can bee soone induced to thinke that a maine plotte was layde, first to make Pipine king of France: and then by his helpe to turne the Greeke Emperour out of Italie that the Pope might haue share of the reuenues of the Empire, as not long after it came to passe: but that the Pope then claymed any power to de∣pose Princes and giue kingdomes; or that the better sore of your owne stories staie on any such pretences, you shall neuer shewe. Zacharie being consulted made answere, what the Germanes by Gods Lawe, as he thought might doe: but he did not appoint them by sentence or censure, what they should doe.

Philand.

Howe shall wee knowe that in this diuersitie of reportes?

Theoph.

You shall heare Zacharies answere to the Legates that were sent about this matter:* 1.602 and that you may safely trust.

Philand.

I mistrust not his owne wordes.

Theop.

You neede not, hee woulde fauour himselfe as much as hee might with any good coulour. When Volorade and Burcharde were sent to Zacharie to vnderstand his iudgement, his answere was, I finde in the sacred storie of the Diuine Scriptures that the people fell awaie from their wretchlesse and lasciuious king, that despised the counsell of the wise men of his Realme, and created a sufficient man, one of them∣selues, king, God him selfe allowing their doinges. All power and rule belong to God, Princes are his ministers in their kingdomes. And rulers are therefore chosen for the people, that they shoulde follow the will of (God) the chiefe ruler in all thinges,* 1.603 and not to doe what they list. Hee is a true king that guideth the people committed to his charge ac∣cording to the prescript and line of Gods Lawe. All that hee hath, as power, glorie, riches, honour and dignitie, he receiueth of the people. The people create their king, and the people may (when the cause so requireth) forsake their king. It is therefore lawfull for the Franckes and Germanes refusing this vnkindely monster (Childerike) to choose some such as shall bee able in warre and peace by his wisedome

to protest and keepe in safetie their wiues, children, parentes, goodes and liues.

I will not examine the Popes diuinitie, in that hee sayth, Princes haue their powers of the people: which the Scripture sayeth they haue of God:* 1.604 this is plaine, hee claimeth no power to depose Princes, but al∣leadgeth an example that the people may chaunge their king when hee is not able (for frensie or follie) to do the duetie of a king. And by that con∣cludeth it lawfull for the Germanes to refuse that simple idiote, which had the Scepter by succession, and elect an other.

Phi.

Though you holde the Pope may not, yet you confesse the people may depose their Prince.

Theo.

I tell you not what I thinke, but what Pope Zacharie sayde to the Germanes.

Phila.

Doe you like or dislike that hee sayde?

Theo.

I shoulde haue asked you that question: but be∣cause you preuent mee, you shall heare what I saie. Z••charie toucheth not the causes for which Princes may be deposed, but the persons by whom it must bee doone, if it bee needefull to doe it: and that is by their owne Realmes, and not by tribunalles abroade, as you suppose.

Phi.

Then it may bee doone.

Theo.

When it shoulde bee doone, the whole Realme must doe it, and not the Pope.

Phi.

But neither hee, nor they can doe it, except you first assent that it may be doone. There can bee no deposers, if Princes bee not deposeable.

Theo.

There may fall extremities: when Prin∣ces are not able to guide themselues, much lesse their Realmes.

Phi.

What be those?

Theo.

I named them before, frensie & follie. As if the right heire to any Crowne be a naturall foole; or he that is inuested in the Crowne, waxe mad, and run besides him selfe. In either of these two cases any Realme by publike con∣sent and aduise may choose an other.

Phi.

What vnlikely cases you bring vs which neuer yet fell out in proofe?

Theo.

Yeas that they haue. Childerike, of whom we spake euen now, was deposed by the Germanes for a foole.* 1.605 And Charles the 3. the last Emperour of Pipines line (Gods iustice requiting his children with the verie same measure that he met before vnto his master) was deposed by the same people for *a bed∣lem. As also when Iustinus the yonger was *distract of his wits, Tiberius was placed in the Empire.

Philand.

You make Childerike a foole, because you woulde auoide the Popes power to depriue Princes.

Theophil.

If you made him not a foole, when you putte him from his right vnder that pretence, I doe him no wrong: Your Stories blaze him for a frantike foole. Blon∣dus and Nauclerus saie they did it * 1.606 Pensantes Regis amentiam: considering the madnes of the king: Sabellicus addeth thereunto, * 1.607 *Regis deliria & ineptias, the follie and frensie of the king. Gaguinus saith he was * 1.608 *homo vecors & bellua: a verie sotte and a beast: and for that cause his title in your Stories is Childeri∣cus stupidus, Childerike the foole: whether hee were or no, God knoweth: but this wee see, they handled him like a foole, and the Pope had infor∣mation

against him that hee was Deneger monstrum, a monster and not a man; and therefore were the causes which they alleadged for this depo∣sition true or no, wee greatly care not. They pretended a cause sufficient, if it were true; and the Pope confessed it lawefull for the whole Realme to displace such a Prince, as was both vn-fitte and vn-able to beare the sworde.

Philand.

But Stephen absolued Pipine from the othe of alleageaunce which hee had giuen vnto Childerike.* 1.609

Theoph.

High time to absolue Pi∣pine from his othe three yeares after Childerike was deposed, and hee pla∣ced in the kingdome.* 1.610 Regino, whence that fable first came of Stephens sick∣nesse at Paris and his recouerie by a vision of Sainct Denis, saieth not a worde of any such absolution, but onely that Stephen confirmed Pipine and his two sonnes as lawfull kinges of France,* 1.611 and adiured the Nobles not to choose them a king of any other line so long as Pipines race indured. The rest is added by Monks and Friers in fauor of the Pope as infinite other thinges are in the ac∣cidentes of euerie Age. Howbeit absoluing from others if they be lawfull and good, is a greater matter than we yet beleeue your holy father may deale with.

The wauering of your Stories in the cause of Childerikes deposition, (for sometimes they vrge a defect in Childerike, sometimes they pleade a right in Pipine without the king, and aboue the king, as hauing the regiment of that Realme and all publike affaires committed to him and his, for the space of fourscore yeares by way of inheritaunce before hee sought the crowne:) this wauering in the cause, and curious seeking for absolutions, and confir∣mations maketh many men suspect that your pretences against Childerike were not all true. But whether Pipine had better interest to the Crowne of Fraunce than Childerike: by reason the * 1.612 Mareschal of the Palace was become the kinges master, in so much that the king coulde not commaunde his owne diet but at the Marshals pleasure; and was gouerned and ouerruled in al things by him as a boy by his tutor, which is the constant report of all your witers tou∣ching the state of the Germane kinges, when Pipine aspired to the crowne: or whether Childerike were an idiote and the last of his house, as for the better strength of Pipines title your stories auouch, I will be no iudge. Childerik I say was deposed by the Nobles and commons of his nation, and the Pope be∣ing consulted whether it were lawfull for them so to doe, made answere, they might, but added no word of his diuine power to dispose kingdoms to his liking. And this for Childerik may suffice.

For Philippicus the answere is easier.* 1.613 Hee was a rebell and slue his Ma∣ster in the fielde, and therefore without any farther cause the Romanes might refuse both his name & his reigne. To this vsurpation when hee added as they thought impietie, it was no maruel to see them so earnest against him: But in this as in many other things your later Stories stray from the former. The elder sort of Historiographers as Beda, Regino, Marianus, Frisingensis, & Vr∣spergensis say: The people of Rome decreed that neither his name, nor

letters,* 1.614 nor coyne shoulde be receiued: the later, as Blondus, Sabellicus and Nauclerus haue chaunged their tune, and say: The Bishop of Rome did it at the clamor and petition of the people. Sigebert as indifferent betweene them saith, the Bishop and the people ioyntly did it. So handsomly you can hammer thinges when they come to your fingering, and such credit your Stories deserue when the case concerneth your holy Fathers authoritie.

* 1.615These bee all the examples you doe or can bring for the space of a thowsand yeares after Christ, where Princes were depriued of their crownes by the Bi∣shop of Rome: and these how litle they make for your purpose, I leaue to the iudgement of the christian Reader.

Your catalogue of the Germane Emperours, that insueth: As of Frederike the first,* 1.616 Frederike the second, Otho the fift, Lewes the thirde, Lewes the fourth, and Henrie the thirde (or as some call him the fourth) maketh shew to the simple, but doth you no good. The eldest of these that were offered depriuation by the Pope, is Henrie the fourth whom Gregorie the seuenth a thowsand, threescore and six yeares after Christ prouoked with that iniurie, but to his owne & vtter o∣uerthrow.

You recken Lewes the thirde, and Lewes the fourth for Princes depriued of their Empires by the Bishoppe of Rome, but reason were you did first tell vs whom you meane, and how you proue it. Marianus Scotus and they that follow him make▪ Lewes the third to be Lodouicus Balbus to whom Pope Iohn fled & annointed him king of the Romanes,* 1.617 when the Nobles of Rome inclined rather to Charles the thirde, and gaue him possession of the citie, who was after annointed by Pope Iohn at his returne; Lodouike the thirde liuing skant two yeares after his coronation. Martinus Polonus numbreth him for Lewes the third that was next after Arnulphus: but whether it were Lodo∣uike the sonne of Arnulphus,* 1.618 or an other of that name the sonne of Boso, he doth not determine, onely he saith Berengarius caught him at Verona and recoue∣red the Empire: which Blondus and Marianus report of Lodouike the sonne of Boso, and not of Lodouike the sonne of Arnulphus, as Platina doth. In this vncertaintie of your Stories you might haue done wel to haue distinguished the person, & pointed out your author: you now driue vs to suspect that you go about to haue them deposed that were neuer crowned.

Of Lodouike the sonne of Arnulphus, Martinus saith: Hee succeeded his father, sed ad coronam Imperij non peruenit, but hee neuer was crowned Empe∣rour. And Platina confesseth the same: In the place (of Arnulphus) we read that Lodouike was made Emperour, quem tamen nusquam habuisse imperij Co∣ronam accepimus: of whom we do not finde that euer hee had the Crowne of the Empire. If hee neuer receiued the Crowne, how could hee bee de∣posed from the Crowne?

Phi.

Perhappes the Pope kept him from it.

Theo.

Perhappes you can not tell: but thinke you that Princes will loose their Crownes for your perhappes?

Phi.

He neuer had it.

Theo.

But had he any wrong to bee kept from it?

Phi.

Howe thinke you of that?

Theo.

Your

proofes bee verie mightie that must depende on my thoughtes.

Phi.

Wee brought in these instances as it were by the way, to let you see what stoare of examples wee had.

Theo.

Then take them out of the way, for they do but hin∣der your cause.

When Charles the thirde, otherwise called Carolus Crassus, grewe both sicke and lunatike, the Nobles of Germanie cleane forsooke him, and choose Arnulphus which as some say was the sonne of Charlemaine, but as Blondus affirmeth, was * 1.619 obscurissimo natus loco, a man very basely borne, and not of Charles line: by reason whereof * 1.620 the kingdomes which before were subiect to Charles, now as destitute of a right heire, beganne to fall in sunder on e∣uerie side, & to choose kinges of themselues. Then Fraunce * 1.621tooke Charles the childe, cognamed Simple, and when his simplicitie displeased them, they * 1.622 set Otho the sonne of Robert Duke of Saxonie, in his place. At the same time the people of Italy meaning to haue a king of their own, could not agree on the matter, but chose some Berengarius; and others Guido, and so had two kinges in Italy both calling and bearing them-selues as Emperours. Be∣sides these defections, Arnulphus had long and sharpe warres with * 1.623 Rodolph that proclaimed him-selfe king of Prouince, and with the * 1.624 Nortmanes that ranged in many partes of Fraunce and Germanie. So that the Pope did not depose Lewes the thirde, as you would insinuate: but Italie seeing the line of Charles to bee expired, thought to make an Emperour of their owne bow∣els, and to keepe off straungers that before had the rule ouer them: and so they did for threescore yeares, till barbarous inuasions, and domesticall se∣ditions, and disorders made them glad to send to Otho the great,* 1.625 and to re∣ceiue him for their Emperor, and to yeelde to a forme of electing to the Em∣pire by certaine Bishops and Princes of Germanie, which hath indured vntil this present.

This your own Stories abundantly confirme, saue that some write of Ar∣nulphus that he marched with his armie through the middest of Italy and tooke Rome, and caused him-selfe to bee crowned Emperour, (as Regino sayth who then liued) by Formosus the Bishoppe of Rome: which * 1.626Blon∣dus doth skant beleeue. Howsoeuer that were, they all agree that Berenga∣rius and Guido were chosen kinges of Italie when Arnulphus was first ad∣uaunced to Charles his place. Blondus saieth, Arnulpho apud Francos in Im∣peratorem creato Romani & caeteri Itali nullum ab imperatore nouo dissidijs Regni Franciae implicito auxilium aduersus rebelles Longobardos affuturum intelligentes, Berengarium Foron••liensem Ducem Roma oriundum crearunt Imperatorem.* 1.627 Ar∣nulphus being chosen Emperour by the Germanes, the Romanes and Italians perceiuing they might looke for no helpe against the rebellious Lombards from that new Emperor, hauing his hands ful of the dissentiōs of his own kingdom, created Berengarius the duke of Frioli a Romane their em∣peror. Neither yet did they so wel agree in that electiō but that other chose Guido the Duke of Spoletum to be king of Italie. Otho Frisingensis maketh the

same report.* 1.628 Charles the next yeare after hee was deposed, died. From that time to Otho wee finde the regiment at Rome verie confused. For af∣ter the death of Charles, which raigned sixe yeares and ledde a priuate life, the seuenth yeare the Empire was rent in many partes, euery Prouince de∣sirous to haue a seuerall king: onely Arnolfus had the greatest share. There∣fore the Italians make themselues two kinges: Berengarius Duke of Friault, and Guido Duke of Spoletum. Of the which Berengarius chased out of his coū∣try by Guido ••led for succour to Arnolfus.

You can not proue hence that Arnulphus or Lewes his sonne were depriued by the Pope, but only that the Romanes made an other defection from the Em∣pire: who after they had once tasted the sweetnesse that came by cutting the em∣pire in peeces (for where before they were suppliāts & subiects,* 1.629 now by the lar∣ges of Pipine they were Lords of halfe Italie) by their willes could neuer haue rested. And though the Germanes and Italians differ in their reckonings; the Germanes accounting Berengarius and those that succeeded him vntil Otho the great, for vsurpers, and contrary-wise the Italians accepting them for their naturall and true Emperours;* 1.630 Yet that is no cause for you to auouch that the Pope deposed any of them. For put the case either way, that the Germanes were lawfully excluded as hauing no right, or wrongfully debarred of their right, you may conclude hence a iust allegation, or a ciuill sedition in the Ro∣manes, but no depriuation of Princes by the Pope.

* 1.631If by Lewes the thirde you meane Lewes the sonne of Boso, (for him you may meane, and by your indistinct speaking, you driue vs to ghesse at your mea∣ning;) he with violence gate some dominion in Italie, putting Berengarius to the worst; and by negligence lost not onely that hee gate, but his eyes also, which hee might haue saued with staying at home: mary the doers of it were Berenga∣rius his enimie, and the citizens of Verona which betraied him: mention of the Pope there is none, except you thinke it vnfitte for his holinesse that anie treason shoulde bee wrought without him, for that his•• See is so well prac∣tised in them. Of this Lewes,* 1.632 Otho sayth: In the yeare of our Lord 905. Lodouike the sonne of Boso getting the Empire expelled Berengarius: and ha∣uing the whole kingdome of Italie at his becke, dismissing his armie, went to Verona with a small traine, where being betrayed by the citizens (that sent for Berengarius from the place where hee was in exile) hee was caught and his eyes pulled out.* 1.633 And after that Berengarius helde the kingdom of I∣talie togither with the Romane Empire. So haue wee three Lodouikes, ech of them in sundrie writers surnamed Lewes the thirde, and not one of them de∣posed by the Bishop of Rome.

* 1.634Henrie the fourth was the first that was troubled with the Popes presump∣tion to depose Princes: but hee was so farre from taking it, that hee put the Pope besides his cushinne, and had him deposed from his triple Crowne, not onelie by force, but also by iudgement and sentence as good or better than that which the Pope pronounced against him. Respect whether you will,

the cause, or the manner of their proceeding eche against other.

Phi.

You crake of this Emperour:* 1.635 For that in fine by armes hee droue the saide Pope out of his Sea, and placed an Antipape, that is to say, one so opposite to Christes Vicar, as Antichrist shall bee against Christ: which by armes and patronage of this wicked Emperour vsurped and occupied the Apostolike throne against the true Pope Gregorie the seuenth.

Theo.

We crake not of Princes as you doe of Popes, neither do we defend them in open wickednes as you doe Popes in their pestilent disorders and out∣rages: only we say neither your holy father with his proude claime, nor you with your smoothe tongues may take from Princes their Crownes, without war∣rant from God, of whome they haue their power, and by whome they are exal∣ted to their Royall dignitie. And therefore if you will play the proctour for Pope Hildebrande in that attempt of his to depriue Henry the fourth, leaue wastful woords, and spiteful speach, and go to the matter. Scoffes and taunts are soone cast and recast without any paynes or praise.

Phi.

Because this good and notable Pope,* 1.636 was not able in fine to resist the Empe∣rours forces (the which Emperour, as all the histories of that tyme recorde, was a most wicked, sacrilegious, simoniacal and hereticall person) the aduersaries of Gods Church doe triumph (as the Libeller here doth) ouer the blessed man: as Herode might haue done ouer Iohn Baptist, whose admonition was taken in so euill grè, that it cost him his life: as also the executing of the Churches sentence, which is Gods, hath doone to many a Prophet and Bishop in the worlde.

Theo.

If to call Gregorie the seuenth,* 1.637 Hildebrand, which was his proper name, and whereof neither hee nor you shoulde in reason bee ashamed, be a note of rebellious heretiques as you terme them: what is it for you to call a Prince (on whom by Gods Lawe you are forbidden to rayle) a most wicked, sacrilegious, simoniacall and hereticall person? What is it to say that al the stories of that time re∣cord the same, and to produce none? As for Iohn Baptise you may vse his name when you follow his workes. Herode was an incestuous Tyrant, yet did not Iohn Baptist take the scepter from him nor arme his subiects against him, but warned him of the breach of Gods Lawe, which hee wilfully committed, and the punishment which would ensue at Gods handes: farther practices against Herode Iohn Baptist had none, and therefore you might as well haue yoked Belial with Christ,* 1.638 as Hildebrand with Iohn Baptist. But you must be suffe∣red, when other things faile you, to haue glorious words: which is a right He∣rodian affection.

Phi.

By the euent of things, whosoeuer measureth the right of cause;* 1.639 will make a good religion and a good defence of the execution of iustice. For so most tyrants might bee iustified for a tyme,* 1.640 against all the Saintes of God. This Gregorie say they was in fine banished by the Emperour: And so was Saint Chrysostome by Arcadius and Eudoxia, and dyed in banishment as Gregorie the seuenth did: yet they were but homely Christians that woulde iustifie the Emperours, and condemne. S. Chry∣sostome.

Theo.

* 1.641Wee measure not the right of causes neither by the sequele nor suc∣cesse of thinges, for then the Saintes of GOD from the first beginning of the worlde shoulde haue had an euill cause, since their successe hath alwayes beene to loose their liues for bearing witnes vnto the trueth. Wee make it no reason that Hildebrandes cause was euill, because in the ende hee was banished: Wee all this while haue stoode with you on this point, that neither Hilde∣brand nor any other Pope had or hath right to depose Princes. Your commen∣dation of Hildebrand, and accusation of Henry the fourth, if both were true, are litle to this purpose, vnlesse you will reason thus, the Pope was a good man and the Prince an euill, Ergo the Pope might depose the Prince, which were a very rediculous conclusion.

Phi.

* 1.642The Popes right to depose Princes wee haue prooued before.

Theo.

Not yet that wee see. Your authorities came very short of it, your examples shorter. Some shiftes and sophismes you haue here and there offered vs, but so weake that children woulde hardly bee deceiued by them. Those you thought, being destitute of other helpes, to strengthen with examples: and ha∣uing searched all the corners you coulde for a thousande yeeres after Christ, you finde not one, till you come to Gregorie the seuenth: who did attempt it but coulde not effect it, and lost his Popedome for enter∣prising it.

And here you slip from the right of the cause to the praise of the Person, which is vtterly impertinent to this purpose.* 1.643 For what trowe you, is eue∣ry thing good that good men doe? May you not so commende any vice? What sinne is there but some good man otherwise hath fallen into? If to mea∣sure thinges by their euents, bee no sure way to iudge rightly of them, what is it to alleage no better grounde for the Deposition of Princes than the bolde attempt of the Bishoppe of Rome? Were the Person commended not by the assentation of his adherents, but by the confession of his aduersa∣ries: that proueth not his fact to bee good, or his enterprise lawfull. We must balance thinges by the Lawes of God, and not by the fansies and affections of men: and yet touching the Person, if the syncerest of your own side may bee tru∣sted, I see no such cause to commend him.

Phi.

* 1.644This Pope, whome they specially hate, because (as it may be thought) he was the first man that authentically condemned the Berengarians heresie, and in open disputation refuted it; though certaine of the said Emperours flatterers and enemies of the Sea Apostolike (as the fashion of our heretiques is at this day) wrote slaunderous libels against him;* 1.645 yet was hee a very notable good man and learned, and did suffer whatsoeuer hee did suffer, for meere iustice: in that hee did godly, honorably and by the dutie of his Pastorship, whatsoeuer hee did against the said Emperour: whereof we could alleage all the best writers of those dayes, or neere that tyme, but that wee should be tedious.

Theo.

* 1.646Whatsoeuer Berengarius heresie was, the recantation which your holy Father with his learned aduise prescribed him, is a very wicked

and palpable error. If Hildebrand were the author of that condemnation, we enuie not his praise. A lewder or grosser follie, was neuer vttered with tongue.

No maruaile to see you so forward in affirming that Gregorie the 7. was a very notable good man, and learned, and did suffer, whatsoeuer he did suffer, for meere iustice, and did Godly and honourablie, and by the dewtie of his Pastorship whatsoeuer hee did against the Emperour: he was the first Pope that euer serued or fitted your rebelling humour: Your case and his are all one, and therefore vnlesse you should praise him, you must dispraise your owne doings, which you will not, you be so farre entered into these Italian policies, and perceiue them to bee so profitable for your Rhemish monarchie. But Sirs, if you were asked vnder benedicite whether S. Peter did better in submitting him selfe to Nero,* 1.647 and charging al others to do the like, or Pope Hildebrand in taking the crown from Henry the fourth, and dischargeing his subiects, which would you pre∣ferre? The mild and Christian submission of Peter suffering death at Neroes hands, or the disdainful and arrogant stomacke of Gregorie the seuenth, ma∣king the Emperour with his Queene and young Prince in extreme frost and snowe, waite his leisure three dayes barefoted, and in woollen,* 1.648 at the gates of Canusium, whiles himselfe was warme in a Ladies chamber: and (not∣withstanding this rare example of humilitie in a Prince) practising a generall reuolt of his Nobles and people from him, and causing an other to be chosen in his place, and licencing his owne subiects,* 1.649 seruants and sonnes to beare armes against him, and filling the Christian world with vnnaturall, and parri∣cidial warres and bloudshed? I knowe you dare not in plaine termes dis∣grace Sainct Peter, but in deedes euident to the eyes of all men you take part with Pope Hildebrand against Sainct Peter: extolling and praising him for a very notable good Pope, that first gaue this detestable and damnable aduenture.

He did suffer, you say, whatsoeuer he did suffer for meere Iustice. It was madde meere Iustice that the Church of Christ for a thousand yeres would not bee so much as acquainted with;* 1.650 and a madder imagination of yours that all that refused to bee partakers of Hildebrands wickednesse, were flatterers to the Emperour, and enimies to the See Apostolike: farre better cause haue wee to say, that they which conspired with the Pope against their Prince, vppon so great submission as Christendome hath not seene the like, were* 1.651 DESPISERS OF GOVERNMENT, * 1.652 RESISTERS OF POWER, and consequently disobeiers of Christ, and woorse than hier∣lings of Antichrist. And if you may shake them off that liued in the same age, and wrate of things they sawe with their eyes, and heard with their eares, who smoothed not the vices of men, but defended the or∣dinance of GOD: What should bind vs to regard the corrupt and partiall iudgementes of those that came some hundreds after and knew no more of the certaintie of those actions, than we do at this instant; and were

withall so wedded to the Sea of Rome, that in respect thereof they did resist, as you doe now both the power of man, and the trueth of God?

Phi.

* 1.653 We haue for Gregorie the seuenth the graue testimonie of Baptista Ful∣gosius a noble and learned man, that was Duke of Genua aboue an hundred yeeres past, which wee shall not let to set downe as wee find it in the Latine. Constantissimus habitus est Gregorius septimus Pontifex, qui quòd Henricum tertium Imperatorem propter aperta nimis Symoniae crimina, pro Pastorali officio reprehendebat, grauibus ab eo iniurijs affectus est. Itaque iniuriarum magnitudine compulsus, Henricum Gre∣gorius vt haereticum Imperij honore priuauit. Cum autem Henricus solut ecclesiasti∣ca censura non emendatione vitae, sed armis quaereret, alium creari Pontificem enixus capta vrbe obsidere Gregorium caepit. Quae mala cum Gregorius pateretur nunquā tamen a iusto proposito dimoueri potuit. That is,* 1.654 Gregorie the seuenth was no∣table for his constancie; who for that according to his Pastorall charge, hee had admonished Henrie the third Emperour to leaue his knowen impietie of Symonie, was by manifold intolerable iniuries vexed by the same Empe∣rour; and by the greatnes of his wickednes was compelled to depriue him as an heretique, of his Imperiall dignitie. But Henry seeking not by amend∣ment of his life but by armes to bee absolued from the censure; hee went a∣bout to set vp a newe Pope, and beseeged the Citie of Rome and brought the Pope into great distresse. In all which miseries Gregorie coulde neuer bee remoued from his iust purpose.* 1.655 So hee writeth of the parties both. And of the horrible crimes for which the Emperour was most iustly in the sight of all good men deposed.

Theo.

* 1.656Truth dependeth not vpon nobilitie but sinceritie. Noble men haue their affections and ouersightes in writing as well as others. Baptista Ful∣gosius liued foure hundreth yeeres after Gregorie the seuenth, and had no bet∣ter intelligence of the cause than wee haue at this day. In his banishment hee collected certaine examples out of such bookes as came to his handes, to spend the tyme, & ease his miserie: but hee tooke not vppon him to iudge between your stories which were credible and which not. All that hee sayth of Gregorie the seuenth, is (Constantissimus habitus est) he was counted very constant, & could neuer be remoued from the purpose,* 1.657 which he thought to be iust: the rest is a report of the fact, no debating of the cause.

* 1.658And had this exiled Person giuen greater commendation to Gregorie than hee doeth, euery Noble mans fansie that is or hath beene these fiue hundreth yeeres in Christendome, must not appoint what power the Pope shal haue ouer Princes. And if Nobilitie might preiudice trueth, as in deede it can not, why should the iudgement of Baptista Fulgosius in this case bee preferred before a thousand others of greater Nobilitie that haue taken part with their Princes against the Pope?* 1.659 Meaner states than Princes will not lose their liberties for the Duke of Genua; and therefore if you seeke for the right of the cause, it must be tried neither by Dukes, Popes nor Princes. The word of God doeth not goe by the verdicts of men: If you stand not on that, but on the vices of Henrie

and vertues of Gregorie: Your Italian Duke is too yong to pronounce exact∣ly what they were that died some hundreds before he was borne.

Phi.

Trithemius reporteth in briefe thus,* 1.660 of the wickednes of this Emperour: Episcopatus, Constantiensem &c. He sold the Bishopriks of Constance, Bamburgh, Mentz and diuers others for money: those of Ausbourg, & Straisbourgh for a sword:* 1.661 that of Munster for Sodomie: and the Abbacie of Fuld for adulterie: Heauen and earth witnes and crie out on these: and for the same abhomina∣tions he standeth excommunicated, and depriued, and therfore hath no po∣wer, nor iust title to raigne ouer vs Catholikes.

Theo.

This is the next way to build the Tower of Babel,* 1.662 to descend from a Duke to an Abbat: from one that liued fiueskore yeeres agoe to one that died not much more than threeskore yeeres since; and to thinke by men of your own faction, that were aliue in this our age, to make proofe of thinges that were done fiue hundreth yeeres before. Trithemius an Abbate of late dayes, hath no credite in this case: you must shewe vs some elder writer and nearer the time wherein these things were done, or else wee shall passe it ouer as a peeuish and pestilent slaunder.

Phi.

Wee haue elder if you list to beleeue them: but you will discredite them, as you doe Trithemius.

Theo.

I discredite not Trithe∣mius:* 1.663 but le••ue him his due commendation: onely I say there is no reason that a man of your side, and our age, shoulde bee the first and sole depo∣nent of matters many hundreth yeeres elder than himselfe.

Phi.

Wee haue long before him that did witnesse the same.

Theo.

Produce them.

Phi.

Dodechinus, who liued within an hundreth yeeres of that time, hath the same report woorde for woorde of Henry the fourth that Trithemius hath.

Theo.

Wee find that repeated by Dodechinus,* 1.664 but not of his owne know∣ledge or iudgement. Valtrame Bishop of Megburg wrate a sober and seeme∣ly letter to Countie Lodouike to perswade him to submit himselfe to the king and not to resist the powers which God had ordayned.* 1.665 Lodouike puffed with pride and filled with disdaine wrate backe to Valtrame a furious and spiteful libell both against the Bishoppe and the king: wherein these thinges are ob∣iected to the Prince without farther triall or testimonie. Both their letters Abbate Dodechine inserteth in his storie. So that the first author of this tale was Lodouike, in fauour of himselfe, disfaming the Prince which hee sought to subuert: and what credite that can haue in the eares of indifferent men, let the wise consider.

Where hee sayth the Emperour sold the Bishopriks of Ratisbon,* 1.666 Ausbourg, and Straisbourgh for a sword, his malice was so great that he could not dissem∣ble his follie. For hee that tooke but a swoorde for three Bishoprikes, was no great Symonist: your holy father would haue made a better bargaine for him selfe, if hee had had the sale of them. Sure swordes were very deare, or Bi∣shoprikes very good cheape, when the Prince let goe three Bishoprikes for a sword. Such toyes you seeke to deface Princes, and so quickly you giue credite to him that wil say any thing against them.

How Henry the fourth behaued himselfe, in giuing the Abbaie of Fulde and Bishopricke of Mounster, I know not, neither doe I find it credibly reported in any good writer. The rebellious heart, and conuicious mouth of Frede∣ricke first raised this vncleane suspition vpon the Emperour: and you now are as earnest to proclaime your Abbasses for Whores,* 1.667 and your Bishops for Sodomites, rather than you wil distrust the bare accusation of a Malcontent against his Prince; you bee so linked with him in cause and condition: But for our partes as wee detest the vices, so wee beleeue not euerie crime, that an enimie and a rebell in excuse of himselfe list to vpbraide his Prince with: wee require some surer proofe for so hainous a crimination as this is be∣fore wee trust the vnbridled tongue of a seditious subiect against his So∣ueraigne.

* 1.668Marianus Scotus and Lambertus Scafnaburgensis, which liued, both of them, at the same time with Henry the fourth, and were to flatterers of his, but fautours of Hildebrand, and of the Saxones that rebelled against him, neuer charged him with those enormities. Dodechinus him selfe, when he commeth to the final censure of Henries faults and offences, omitteth these as vnlikely; or at least, as vnproued; and saith, He sold all spiritual liuings, and was inobedient to the Sea Apostolike, by setting Wigbert in Gregories place, by exceeding the order of Christianitie towarde his lawfull wife, and by neglecting the sentence of the Apostolike See. These bee the crimes for the which Dodechinus saith he was iustly cast out of the Church. And Marianus, saith he, was excommunicated, maximè propter Symoniam, chiefly for Symonie, not for Sodomitrie.

He that wrate the life of Henry the fourth presently vpon his death, a modest, auncient, and Christian reporter of such things as hapned vnto that Emperour, saith of the Saxons and others that sought to palliate their ciuile sedition with a faire shew, Confictis, conscriptisque super eo criminibus, quae pessima & immundissima potuit odium & liuor excogitare, & quae mihi scribenti tibique legenti nauseam parerent, si ea ponerem, vera falsis miscentes apud Romanum Pontificem Gregorium septimum, eum deferebant: Faining and articulating crimes against him, the worst and most vncleanest that hatred and enuie could imagine, which are lothsome for me to write and thee to reade, if I should name them, and mingling some trueth amongst their lies, they complained of him to Gregorie the seuenth the Bishop of Rome. Vr∣spergensis saith: The Saxons, making a generall coniuration against the King, put vppe against him to the See Apostolike, accusationes blasphe∣mas & inauditas; blasphemous accusations, and neuer heard of before. These blasphemous and fained accusations you rake vp againe, and pub∣lish them to the worlde with great sooth vppon the credit of an Abbate that liued in this our age; such is your discretion and grauitie that you patrone not onlie the violent and armed rage of rebels against their Prince, but euen their vnhonest and lothsome suspitions.

If we would bring against Gregorie the seuenth not laymen but Bishops,* 1.669 not one but many, not straungers but his owne Italians, Romanes and Cardinals, that knewe him and were conuersant with him, hee woulde lacke a great deale of that praise which you, and other such Pharisaicall Friers as you bee, giue him. The Councell of Woormes, where were present Vniuersi pené Teutonici Episcopi, almost all the Bishoppes of Germa∣nie, condemned him of great periuries, newfangled abuses, and manifolde infamies of life:* 1.670 after that thirtie Bishoppes of Italie gathered together at Brixia, hauing there the Legates and letters of nineteene Bishoppes assem∣bled at Mentz with the Nobles of Italie and Germanie,* 1.671 not onely auouched of him; that hee most impudently intruded himselfe into the See of Rome by fraud and monie, subuerted the ecclesiasticall order, troubled the regiment of the Christian Empire, sought destruction of bodie and soule vppon their Catholike and peaceable king, and maintained a periure against him, but in fine they adiudge,* 1.672 the saide Hildebrand a most shamelesse person, breathing out sacrilege and spoile, defending periuries and homicides, calling in que∣stion the Catholike and Apostolike fayth of the bodie and blood of Christ, the auncient scholer of the heretique Berengarius, an obseruer of dreames & diuinations, a manifest coniurer, and a worker with a familiar spirit; & there∣fore fallen from the true fayth to be canonically deposed, and expelled from his Bishopricke.

Phi.

These bee the slaunderous libels,* 1.673 which I tolde you some of the Em∣perours flatterers and his enemies wrote against him.

Theo.

You beleeue not the report of so many Bishoppes and Nobles iudicially proceeding, and ••in∣ding him culpable in these thinges, and affirming so much to his face: and euen nowe you when you heard the malitious and slaunderous accusation of one pri∣uate man against his Prince, neither discussed, nor prooued, but obiected on∣ly in defence of his rebellion, you beleeued that and put it in print to the view of all men, with no lesse leuitie than partialitie; as if al were true that liketh you be it neuer so vnlikelie or vntrue: and againe all false that fitteth not your fansie bee there neuer so many deponents for it, and iudges with it, both Bishoppes and nobles. Such indifferencie wel becommeth such writers as you are, which seeke nothing but that your tales may take place, bee they neuer so vnchristian or vncredible.

Phi.

Will you beleeue men in a faction one against another?

Theo.

If the Princes faction may not bee credited against the Pope, why should the Popes faction be receiued against the Prince?

And yet the Princes faction against Hildebrand,* 1.674 if it were a faction, was very generall. Fraunce, Germanie and Italie were of that faction, in so much that when the Emperour had reconciled him-selfe to the Pope at Canusium, and Legates were sent to absolue such as were excommuni∣cate, the Princes and people of Italie fell to an vproare against the Emperour for submitting him-selfe, and ment to haue set his sonne in his place, as Schafnaburgensis confesseth in these woordes: When the

Legate came,* 1.675 and shewed to the people of Italie the cause of his comming, a vehement offence and dislike was conceiued against him. Fremere omnes, & saeuire verbis ac manibus caeperunt, Apostolicae Legationi irrisorijs exclamationi∣bus obstrepere, conuicia & maledicta vtcunque turpissima furor suggessisset, irrogare, se excommunicationem illius nihili estimare, quem ipsum omnes Italiae episcopi iustis de causis iam pridem excommunicassent, qui sedem Apostolicam per Symoniacam haeresim occupasset, homicidijs cruentasset, adulterijs alysque capitalibus criminibus polluisset, regem secus ac deceat egisse, crimenque gloriae suae intulisse nunquam abo∣lendum, quod homini haeretico & probis omnibus infamato maiestatem regiam sub∣miserit, &c. They all began to mutter, and to manifest their griefe of mynde with woordes and handes, and to deride and interrupt the Popes Lagate, & to taunt him and raile on him euen as their rage lead them, saying, that they esteemed not (Hildebrands) excommunication, whom all the Bishoppes of Italie long before had excommunicated, for that hee gate the Apostolike Seate by Symonie,* 1.676 and had embrued it with blood, and defiled it with adul∣teries, and other capitall crimes: and that the king had done otherwise than became him, and had vtterly blemished his glorie in submitting his royall maiestie to an heretike, and one that was infamous for all vices. This sedi∣tion growing ripe, they were all of one minde and determination to refuse the father, who had made himselfe vnworthie of the scepter, and to choose his sonne to be their king, though very yong and vnfit for the affaires of the Realme:* 1.677 and to goe to Rome with him, and elect them an other Pope, by whom both he should be crowned, and al the actes of this Apostatical Pope should bee reuersed.

This opinion his owne people had of him, how learned and godly a man soe∣uer hee seemeth in your eyes: and these were not procured by the Prince, but readie to forsake the Prince, for humbling himselfe to so infamous an heretike as Hildebrand was, whome you call a very notable good Pope. The rest of his goodnes if I should lay foorth as Beno the Cardinall,* 1.678 that liued with him, de∣scribeth him; all other the vitious and infamous Popes which the whoore of Babylon hath bred vs, would seeme punees to him: but thither I refer the rea∣der that list to behold the man of sinne exalting himselfe in the Church of God: I seeke to examine the fact and not the life of Gregorie the seuenth: if that were good, though he were badde, I will vse no aduantage.

Phi.

These were his enemies.

Theo.

To an euill man howe could they bee but enemies, if that they said were true?

Phi.

True? not a word of it.

Theo.

So say you: but what if wee beleeue them before you: haue we not good cause so to doe?

Phi.

These were such as helde against him, and therefore hardly would speake well: But others and the best of that age greatly cōmend him.

Theo.

Were they not such as tooke his part?

Phi.

Yes: but yet they would not lie for him.

Theo.

Might not the Pope haue flatterers as well as the Prince?

Phi.

Hee might, but these were none.

Theo.

Howe shall we know that?

Phi.

They were godly Monkes and Bishoppes, that woulde

not flatter.

Theo.

They might be godly, and yet be deceiued in iudging of o∣ther mens persons. The best men are hardest to beleeue euill reportes concer∣ning others, though perhaps true if they were perfectly knowen: and yet there were other causes which wanne him the fauour of many Monkes and Bishops in those dayes, and of many Romish writers since that time: and those were, the suppressing of maried Priestes, and aduauncing of Monkes, and the exemp∣ting of Bishoppes from their Princes: which things the Church of Rome af∣ter him greedily embraced, and holdeth vnto this day as the glorious, acts of Hildebrand.

Phi.

Doe you dispraise them?

Theo.

The Church of Christ til that time suffered the mariage of Priests,* 1.679 and expected the Princes consent in the choice of her Bishoppes: both which Hildebrand impugned at one tyme.

Phi.

Hee impugned Concubinaries and Symonists.

Theo.

So your Cloysterers cal∣led such as were maried, and preferred by the Prince, and for that cause they tooke stitch with the Pope against the Prince, and highly commended Hilde∣brand as the first begynner of ecclesiasticall puritie and libertie. But in deede it was but a quarrell sought out by the Pope vnder a faire pretence to tread downe Princes, and exalt himselfe.* 1.680 He could beare no such sway as he woulde in the Church so long as the Bishops did depend on the Prince, and not on the Pope. For by their helpe the Prince often tymes not only crossed, but depriued the Pope, if hee waxed vnruly, or ouer lustie. This was it, that Hildebrande could not digest.

Lighting therefore on a Prince that was young and somewhat lasciuious,* 1.681 and perceiuing the Nobles of his Realme to dislike and disdaine one an other: and seeing the Normanes in Italie able to withstande the Emperours force, and the Saxons in Germanie willing to cast off the Yoke, as they thought of bondage: and getting into such fauour with Mathilda, a great & mightie Ladie of Italie, that shee should not bee out of his sight, but as a very friend of Grego∣ries sayth, Pontificis Lateri comes indiuidua adhaerebat, eumque miro colebat af∣fectu, shee cleaued to the Popes side as his continuall companion, and lo∣ued him exceedingly. Hildebrande hauing these oportunities, gaue the ad∣uenture both to pull all spirituall liuings out of the Princes gift, that the Cler∣gie might depend on him and not on their Prince, and to shewe him-selfe the censurer and deposer of Kinges and Emperours if they withstoode him.* 1.682 And for that cause hee first decreed it to bee Symonie to take any spirituall lyuing at a lay mans handes, and in the same Synode did excommunicate as well the giuers as the takers, were they Dukes, Princes, or Kinges which hee knewe the Emperour neither coulde nor woulde endure. Not long after hee receiued diuers and sundrie suggestions against the King from the Saxons, who sought by armes what they coulde to preuaile against the Prince,* 1.683 and when that succeeded not, fell to slaundering and accusing their king: for an∣swere whereto the Pope summoned the King to appeare at Rome, and pre∣fixed him a day to cleare him-selfe of those crimes. And when the king neither

would loose his right in bestowing his Bishoprickes and Benefices as he sawe cause, and as his progenitours before him had doone: and refused to come in Person to answere the complaints of rebels against him, but sent his Agents to refell their obiections: the Pope discouering the malice and pride which till that tyme hee concealed,* 1.684 tooke the Princes messengers and cast them in Prison, and caused them to bee caried about the Citie as gazing stockes; and in his Synode depriued the Emperour both of the communion of the fayth∣full, and of his Crowne and kingdome also, and to his dying day would not bee remoued from his purpose.

Philand.

* 1.685These bee your vaine collections which wee regarde not.

Theo.

I looke not you shoulde regarde mine: but if your owne writers which haue laboured in this matter, finde the report which I make to bee true, you may not so lightly neglect them. Auentinus a man addicted to your religi∣on, not to ours, exactly and vprightly weighing the partes and proofes of this cause, obserueth the same that I doe, and a great deale more.

Philand.

Auentinus was too fauourable to the Germanes his Countriemen.* 1.686

Theop.

Any writer may bee touched in that sort with fauour or affection. If you re∣iect men of the same profession with you, because they differ in iudgement from you: much more is it lawfull for vs in this contention betweene the Prince and the Pope, to refuse such as were altogether inclined and deuoted to the See of Rome. If you trust not Auentine because hee was a Germane, why should we trust those Monkes and Bishoppes that were ioyned in faction with Hildebrand against the king?

Philand.

* 1.687Will you trust none but your seluee?

Theoph.

You doe not so much as trust your selues: wee alleage none but your owne men in this case, and you trust them not.

Philand.

Wee giue you some cause why wee trust them not.

Theoph.

None, but this that you like them not: your other exceptions bee very friuolous. If some were Germanes and fauou∣red the Prince, others were Italians and flattered the Pope. You trust not the one, nor wee the other; let therefore the sticklers of both sides alone▪ and examine the doers them-selues. I hope you will beleeue Gregories woordes, and not distrust him, as you doe the rest.

Philand.

He wil not belie him-selfe.

Theo.

Then touching the causes of Henries excommunication, the Pope himselfe maketh this report to the Princes of Germanie.* 1.688 Pro hijs illum causis, primum videlicet quod ab eorum communione qui pro sacrilegio & reatu simoniaca haeresis excommuni∣cati sunt se abstiuere noluit: deinde quod pro criminosis actibus pae∣nitentiam non dico suscipere, sed nec promittere voluit, Synodali iudicio eum excom∣municauimus. For these causes, to witte first for that he would not forbeare their companie which were excommunicated for the sacrilegious and he∣reticall guylt of Symonie, next for that hee was so farre from taking any pe∣nance (at our handes) for his criminall actes, that he would promise none, we by a Synodal sentence did excommunicate him. Here bee the two causes

which the Pope pretended for his excommunicatiō and deposition of the prince: partaking with Symonists, and refusall of iudgement & penance at his hands.

Philand.

Were not Symonie and obstinacie two great crimes?

Theoph.

Your holy father did call that Symonie which was none.

Philand.

The Prince did sell Bishoprickes and Benefices.

Theoph.

So your Monkes affirme, but they lie the more. The Pope him-selfe you see doeth not charge him with selling Bishoprickes or benefices, but with retaining their societie that did.

Lambertus that lyued in that tyme,* 1.689 and wholy fauoured Gregorie, confes∣seth that by many examples the Prince shewed, howe much hee detested the corruption and ambition of Prelates and Abbates seeking preferment by mo∣ney and flatterie. When the Abbay of Fulde was voide, and the King with his Nobles conferring about the choice of a newe, the Abbates and Monkes, sayth Lambertus, as it had beene at a solemne game, began to of∣fer some golden mountains, other great booties out of the lands of the Ab∣bay; and some, more seruices to the common-wealth than accustomed, and in offering they kept neither meane nor modestie, horum impudentiam rex vehementissimé, vt dignum erat, detestatus,* 1.690 the king most vehemently de∣testing their impudencie as it became him, when hee was importu∣ned with their prayers and offers, on the suddaine ledde with a diuine spirite as men thought, called one Ruzelin a Monke that stoode before him, which came to the court about the busines of his house at the com∣maundement of the Abbate, and neuer dreampt of any such thing: and putting the Pastorall staffe in his handes first himselfe named him Ab∣bate, and prayed the rest both souldiers and Monkes to consent to his election.

Likewise when the Abbate of Loressan was dead,* 1.691 and the Monkes and souldiers (hee meaneth the Clergie and the people of the place) had elected the Prior with one accord to succeede and came to the Court, (for the kings consent) neither was it thought that the king woulde dissent,* 1.692 for that the Prior was in some grace and fauour with the king by reason of his dili∣gent seruice afore that tyme, the king caught an other of the Monkes of the same house by the hand, which came with the rest of his brethren, thin∣king on no such thing, and drewe him into the midst of the companie a∣mazed at the matter, and to the great admiration of all men gaue him the Pastorall staffe. This report the very mislikers of Henry the fourth doe giue him touching his hatred and detestation of Symonie and his Prince∣ly disposition to make free choice of Bishoppes and Abbattes. If some tymes hee were ledde with affection and fansie, I knowe neither Pope, people, nor Prince that may not bee often affected, intreated and decei∣ued in their gyftes and elections, bee they neuer so wise, and other∣wise neuer so syncere. But your Monkes, as Marianus, Dodechinus, and others did the Prince great wrong to diffame him with all posteritie

for one that solde all spirituall lyuinges: especially where the Pope himselfe charged him with no such thing in his Synodall sentence against him.

Phi.

All Stories crie out on Henry the fourth for Symonie.

Theoph.

Neither doe I thinke that his tyme was free from it, though his person were. The writer of his life seemeth to complaine of those that were about him and had the gouerning of him in his nonage. After the yong king was taken from his mothers lappe,* 1.693 and lighted into the handes of his Nobles to bee brought vp by them: whatsoeuer they prescribed him, as a child hee did it: hee exalted whom they would, and deposed whome they willed him, in so much that they did not serue him but raigne ouer him.* 1.694 When mat∣ters of the kingdome were handled, they regarded not the common-wealth but their priuate respects, and in all thinges which they went about, the first and chiefest marke they aymed at, was their owne * 1.695 gaine. But when hee came to that stay of age and witte that hee coulde discerne what was honest and profitable (for him selfe and his Realme) what not; retracting those thinges which hee had doone at the suggestion of the Nobles hee condemned many of his owne factes, and becomming as it were a iudge of himselfe, hee chaunged thinges where neede so required. I will therefore neither excuse him for licentiousnes of life, when hee was young, nor those that were about him from bri∣berie: but the Symonie which your holie Father shot at was an other matter.

* 1.696Hee sawe the Clergie did relie too much, as hee thought, vppon their Prince, by reason all Bishoprickes, Abbayes, and Benefices were in the Kinges gift: and none placed in them but such as loued and honoured the King, which was not for the Popes purpose, the whole Clergie by their example and doctrine leading the people to reuerence and obey the magi∣strate. The first steppe therefore to weaken the king not by sedition on the suddaine, but by defection in continuance, was to get the Clergie to bee neither promoted by the King, nor beholding vnto the king: but to ex∣••mp•• first their lyuings,* 1.697 and after their persons from the Kinges power, that thereby they might the more freely take part with the Pope against the King without all daunger, and drawe the people after them vnder pre∣tence of Religion, when tyme shoulde serue. Which at first was not spied of Princes, till all too late they founde by proofe that when the Pope be∣ganne to quarrell with them and excommunicate them for very trifling and earthly causes: the Bishoppes, Priestes and Monkes presently syded with the Pope against the Prince,* 1.698 and taught the people that it was damnable, to ayde, maintaine or assist any Person or Prince excommuni∣cate against the Church, (so they called the Pope and his Cardinals) and this terror of conscience made subiectes euen by heapes abandour their Princes, and aggregate them-selues to the Popes faction, which

otherwise they woulde not haue done, had they not beene rightly instructed by their Pastours to obey their Princes, and not to feare friuolous and rash ex∣communications from Rome, whiles Popes will rule all, and bee resisted by none.

The first layer of this corner stone in the kingdome of Antichrist was Hilde∣brand with his skilfull exposition of Symonie,* 1.699 who resolued in his Councels at Rome, that to accept any spirituall lyuing from a layman, were hee King or Caesar that gaue it, must bee taken for Symonie: and as well the giuer as the taker bee cursed and excommunicated. These bee his woordes: Fol∣lowing the steppes of our holy fathers, as wee haue doone in former Coun∣cels, so in this by the authoritie of almightie GOD wee decree and pro∣nounce, that he which hereafter accepteth any Bishoprike, Abbay or other ecclesiasticall Benefice, at a lay mans hand, shall in no wise bee counted a Bishoppe, Abbate or Clerke, and that he shall not dare approch to Rome vn∣der paine of the greatest curse, vntill repenting him of his fact, hee hath re∣fused the place gotten by such ambition and contumacie, which is al one with Idolatrie.* 1.700 To the same censures wee will haue Kinges, Dukes, and Princes tied and subiected, which shall presume to giue Bishoprickes or o∣ther ecclesiastical dignities, a thing neither fit nor lawfull. This, sayth Plati∣na, he decreed, lest the Church of Rome should receiue any hurt by briberie and Symonie.

Gregorie decided it to bee Symonie for a layman to present to a Benefice, or for a Bishoppe to expect the Princes consent, whereas in the Primatiue Church,* 1.701 the people, which were laymen, chose their Pastours, and for a long tyme the Bishoppes of Rome them-selues were not chosen without the Princes consent, and that which Hildebrande affirmeth here to be Symonie, the Bishoppes of the same See before him confessed to bee godly, and the Em∣perours were possessed of it as of their right euer since the dayes of Charles, which was very neere three hundreth yeres.

That stood good (sayth Platina sixe hundreth and eightie yeres after Christ) in the election of the Bishoppe of Rome which the Emperour or his Depu∣tie in Italie confirmed.* 1.702 This was in force a thousande yeeres after Christ e∣uen when Hildebrande came to the Popedome, as appeareth by the message which Henrie the fourth sent to the Romanes vpon the choise of Hildebrand, and his answere backe againe to the Emperour. For when the Romanes after the death of Alexander had elected Hildebrand without expecting the Princes pleasure, the King sent Eberhardus an Earle to the States of Rome to knowe the cause, quare praeter consuetudinem maiorum Rege inconsulto Ro∣manae ecclesiae Pontificem ordinassent, ipsumque, si non idoneè satisfaceret, illicité ac∣cepta dignitate abdicare se praeciperet: Why they had created a Bishoppe of Rome without the kinges consent against the auncient vse of their fathers, and to commaund him that was chosen, if hee made not due satisfacti∣on, to forbeare the dignitie which hee had vnlawfully taken. To this

Hildebrand answered, that hee was chosen of the Romanes, and violently constrained to take the place,* 1.703 and yet by no meanes coulde be brought to permit himselfe to bee ordered Bishoppe (of Rome) vntill hee certainely knewe that the king and the Nobles of Germanie had consented to his e∣lection: and for that cause hee had hitherto differred his consecration, and surely woulde differ it, vntill hee were aduertised of the Kinges plea∣sure by some trusty messenger.

* 1.704The like Custome and priuilege the Prince had to consent to the electi∣ons of all other Bishoppes within his Empire, before they coulde bee or∣dered as your owne Lawe confesseth, and hee that withstoode it was ac∣cursed by the Popes owne mouth long afore Hildebrande was borne. A∣drian the Pope, with a whole Synode (of an hundreth fiftie-three Bi∣shoppes) yeelded vnto Charles (the great) right and power to choose the Bishoppe of Rome and to dispose the See Apostolike. Also Adrian de∣fined that the Archbishoppes and Bishoppes of euery Prouince shoulde receiue inuestiture of Charles, so that vnlesse a Bishoppe were first liked and inuested by the King, hee might not bee consecrated by any man. And whosoeuer did against this Decree, hee accursed. In an other ••••••ncell helde at Rome Leo the eighth of that name,* 1.705 after the example of Adrian confirmeth this custome to Otho the first, King of the Ger∣manes, and Emperour of the Romanes. I Leo with the whole Clergie and people of Rome doe settle, confirme and establish, and by our A∣postolike authoritie we graunt and giue vnto our Lord Otho the first, and his successours, power for euer to appoint a Bishoppe of (this) chiefe Apostolique See: and likewise Archbishoppes and Bishoppes, that they shall receiue inuestiture of him: in so much that no man of what dignitie or profession soeuer hee bee,* 1.706 shall haue power to choose a Bi∣shoppe of this chiefe Apostolike Seate, or to consecrate any other Bi∣shoppe without consent of the Emperour. If therefore a Bishop bee cho∣sen by the Clergie and people, let him not bee consecrated, vnlesse he be first allowed and inuested by the foresaid king. And if any man attempt a∣ny thing against this our Apostolike sentence, wee determine him to stand excommunicate.

* 1.707These grauntes and confirmations, your owne Stories doe witnesse, though Blondus seeme to doubt of them, as vnlikely. Sigebert sayth, From Charles the great, for the space of three hundreth yeeres and a∣boue, during the liues of threeskore and three Bishoppes of Rome, they that were Emperours of Rome gaue Bishoprickes and Abbayes by the deliuerie of a ring and a staffe, & that then was counted lawful. Now in the dayes of Hildebrand,* 1.708 against the Decrees of their fathers, the Popes in their Synodes haue determined, that no Bishoprike nor ecclesiastical inuestiture can or should be giuen by a lay man with a staffe and a ring: and they which so receiued Bishoprikes or other ecclesiasticall preferments, were

excommunicated.

Thus Hildebrand pretended to follow the steppes of his fathers when hee forsooke them; and concluded that to bee Symonie which was none, and made it a cause of depriuation for the Prince to hold that right which two Bi∣shops of Rome with their Synodes expresly confirmed to Charles and Otho,* 1.709 and sixtie three Bishops had suffered and approued in the Germane Empe∣rours, and himselfe had protested to the Princes Legates at his first entrance to the Bishoprike. If this were not a mere quarell vniustlie sought by the Pope vpon the Prince against all order and equitie, your nearest frindes shall be my iudges.

The seconde cause of Hildebrandes presumption against the Prince is like the first.* 1.710 For what Lawe, diuine or humane, forced the Prince to goe to Rome at the Popes call? Howe proue you, that for sinne committed against God the Pope may enioyne what penance hee list? And the Prince must abay? Or that if the Prince refuse the Popes newe founde and needlesse penances, hee must bee deposed?

Philand.

Woulde you not that Princes shoulde repent their wicked liues?

Theoph.

Yeas, and amende them with all Christian care and speede: But what power hath the Pope by Gods Lawe to pardon the sinnes of Princes more than an other Bishoppe hath? Or why shoulde Princes repenting not bee forgiuen, without perfourming such penance as the Bishoppe of Rome list to deuise for them? Had Gregorie delt with Henry the fourth to correct those thinges which were amisse, and to returne to GOD with earnest and heartie repentaunce, wee woulde not haue misliked that fatherly monition, both to giue eare to the sinister and slaunderous infor∣mations of subiectes and Rebelles, against their Prince; to cite him in person to appeare at Rome that was his Soueraigne Lord and master; to repell his messengers with reproche and infamie that came to cleare him; to depriue him of his kingdome, for not consenting to such penaunces as the Pope in pride and rage should impose; to make him stand three daies in the colde frost barefooted before hee could bee admitted to pre∣sence:* 1.711 and after his submission and absolution giuen by the Pope him selfe to set vppe his seruantes and sonnes to take his Crowne from him: If this bee Iustice, the dyuell himselfe may suffer for Iustice as wel as Pope Hildebrand.

Phi.

Are Princes too good to do penance for their sinnes?

Theoph.

Prooue first that such penances as you list to enioyne, are necessarie partes of our conuersion vnto GOD, and then wee will say, Princes may be blamed for refusing them: otherwise you wickedly abuse the keyes in that you make them serue your lustes to compasse your purposes, and to bee reuenged of your enemies, vnder colour of repenting and reconciling vn∣to God.

Phi.

Must not the Church also bee satisfied?

Theo.

If Popes vnder

the name of the Church play the Tyrants, and content not them-selues with those signes of inwarde sorrowe,* 1.712 which God accepteth, they bee nowe not forgiuers of sinnes, nor watchmen ouer soules, but cunning huntsmen after g••••••e and peruerters of trueth with their prophane policie, which turne the ke••••s and Cannons of Christes Church to enrich them-selues, and to get a Lordly Dominion ouer all persons and places by restraining the Sacra∣ments and enioyning penaunces, such as they see make most for their aduan∣tage. And this hath beene the manner of all your late Popes, vpon pri∣uate and earthly displeasures and quarrels to curse and banne both Prince and people, till amendes were made them euen in their owne liking, as if Christ had ordayned the Sacramentes to bee, not seales of his grace and helpes of our fayth, but baites to catch kingdomes, and roddes to reuenge such Princes as will not, or can not procure the Popes fauour. For so the Bishoppes of Rome haue vsed their excommunications against Princes and others, as the examples that followe, will fully declare.

* 1.713To make an ende first with Hildebrand, if either the successe that GOD gaue him in his furious attempt, or the iudgements of your best and synce∣rest Stories neere that tyme, bee woorthie to bee regarded, they con∣demne this act of Hildebrande as vniust and vngodly. Rodolf, whome the Pope and the Saxons set vp against his master, lost his right hand in the fielde as hee sought to get the Crowne from him,* 1.714 and when by reason of that and other woundes hee was readie to giue vp the ghost, Vrspergensis reporteth of him, that looking on the stumpe of his arme, and fetching a deepe sigh hee sayde to the Bishoppes that were about him, beholde this is the hande wherewith I sware alleagance to my Soueraigne Lorde Henrie: and nowe I leaue you see, both his kingdome and this present life: you that made me aspire to his throne, take you heede that you lead me right, I followed your aduise.

* 1.715The same yeere that Rodolf was slaine, Hildebrand by reuelation from heauen, as hee sayde, foretolde that that very yeere the false king should die, but his coniecture of the false King which hee interpreted to bee Henry, deceiued him, sayth Sigebert. For Henry fighting a set battell with the Saxons: Rodolf the false king and many of the Nobles of Saxonie were slaine. If this were a reuelation from God, as Gregorie pretended, then by the foretelling and perfourming of this accident, GOD himselfe pronounced him the false King, whom the Pope erected and maintained a∣gainst Henry the fourth: If it were no reuelation from aboue, but a con∣sortion with spirites from beneath, then was Gregorie no such Saint as you make him, that had felowshippe with Diuels, and his owne ma∣ster betrayed and beguyled the frantike humour of his infernall disci∣ple.

* 1.716Foure yeares after, Hildebrande him-selfe was forsaken of his owne people, and by their consent depriued of his Popedome, and hee faine to flie to

the barbarous Normanes for refuge, and there in banishment died. Romani Imperatorem Henricum recipiunt in vrbe, & eorum iudicio Hildebrandus Papatu abdicatur.* 1.717 The Romanes receiue Henrie Emperour into their citie: and by their iudgement Hildebrand is depriued of the Popedome. Vrspergensis confirmeth the same.* 1.718 Vnde Romani commoti, manus Regidederunt, Hildebran∣dum vero Papam vnanimeter abdicarunt: whereupon the Romanes being mo∣ued, (that the Pope would not come in the kings presence to haue the matter hearde) submitted themselues to the king, and with one consent abando∣ned Pope Hildebrand. Who lying at the point of death, as Sigebert founde written of him, called vnto him of the twelue Cardinals whom hee lo∣ued aboue the rest, and confessed to God,* 1.719 S. Peter, and the whole church, that hee had greatly sinned in the Pastorall charge which was committed vnto him, and that at the instinct of the diuell he had stirred hatred & hart-burning amongest men. Beno the Cardinall testifieth the same,* 1.720 though some of your Romish writers stoutly auouch the contrary.

This was the successe of Hildebrande and his newe made king; the one vp∣pon the losse of his hande and ende of his life remembring his oth, and repen∣ting his treason; the other seeking to displace the Prince, was displaced him selfe, and lost his Popedome, whiles he laboured to set the Prince besides his throne.

As touching the fact, Frisingensis saith this was the first onset that euer Bi∣shop of Rome gaue to depriue the Emperour. I reade and ouerreade, saieth he, the gestes of the Romane kings and Emperors,* 1.721 and I neuer find any of them before this man excommunicated by the Bishop of Rome, or depriued of his kingdom. Sigebert wisely and truly giueth his iudgement of this and the like interprise. To speake with the leaue of all good men, this only no∣uelty, I will not say heresie, was not crept into the worlde (before the daies of Hildebrand) that Priestes should teach the people they owe no subie∣ction to euil kinges, and that although they haue sworne fidelitie vnto him, yet they must yeelde him none, neither may they bee counted periures for holding against the king; but rather he that obeyeth the king is excom∣municated, & he that rebelleth against the king is absolued frō the blemish of disloyalty & periurie. Gerochus a great champiō of Gregories, is fain to say of him:* 1.722 The Romanes vsurp to themselues a diuine honor, they wil yeeld no reason of their doinges, neither can they abide that any man should say vn∣to them, why doe you so. They answere as the Poete writeth: so I will, and commande. Let my will stand for reason. Vrspergensis sayeth of the Sy∣node at Mentz, where in the presence of the Romane Legates the Bishops that rebelled (with Hildebrand) against the Emperour were deposed;* 1.723 Ibi communi consensu & consilio constituta est pax Dei, There by common consent and counsell the peace of God was established: which concludeth Gregorie to be the author of a diuelish dissention against the Emperour.

Phi.

Wee care for none of these that speake euill of Gregories doing, so

long as we haue a greater number of stories to commend him.

Theo.

And wee hauing the true reportes of these that liued in the same age with him, which neither you nor the rest of your Romish faction can disproue,* 1.724 litle regard what men that came after; and were more desirous to please the Pope than to write the truth, haue published in their stories. You nor all the writers you haue shall euer be able to refell the assertions of Sigebert & Frisingensis, that Hildebrād was the first Bishoppe of Rome which attempted to depriue Princes of their Crownes, and that this noueltie or rather heresie was neuer hearde of before. Howe lawfull then it was, which for a thowsande yeares the church of Rome neuer durst aduenture, till Gregorie the seuenth first presumed to doe it, lea∣ning rather to wicked and seditious policie, than to christian and confessed au∣thoritie, the simple may soone discerne, or if they looke to the end, they shall see the reward that is consequent to all rebellions.

* 1.725A good instruction (sayeth that auncient reporter of Henries life) was giuen to the worlde that no man shoulde rise against his master. The right hand of Rodolph cut off, shewed a most iust punishment of periurie, in that he feared not to violate his fidelitie sworne to the king his Soueraigne: and as though other woundes had not beene sufficient to bring him to his death,* 1.726 that part also was punished, that by the plague the fault might bee perceiued.

Phi.

If you stand on successe, Henrie him-selfe was lifted at last out of his kingdome by his owne sonne.

Theo.

Was it not wickednesse enough to arme the subiectes against their Prince, & to set the sonne to impugne the father, but you must also crake of it?* 1.727 The way that Hildebrand beganne, his succes∣sours woulde not leaue, as being the onely meane to make them Lordes of al. And therefore when Rodolf was slaine, Hermānus was speedily erected against Henrie: and had his rewarde as speedily at a womans hande, which with a mightie stone, as hee was comming in sport to trie the force of his souldiers, beat out his braines from the toppe of a castle in earnest. Ecbertus was the thirde, that ascended to his masters seate: and hee not long after was caught in a windmill, and paid his life for his ransome.

* 1.728Subiectes hauing so euill successe against their Prince, the Pope and his confederates thought to trie what the sonne woulde doe against the father: and first they perswade Conradus, the eldest sonne of Henrie, whom his father left in Italie to represse the force of Mathilda, to ioyne with her against his owne father and to with-drawe the whole kingdome of Italie from obedience to the Emperour. Which vnnaturall dealing of Conradus forced the father to dis∣herite him and to make choise of his yonger sonne Henrie the fift to succeed him in the Empire; taking an oth of him, least hee shoulde runne his brothers course, that during his owne life, the sonne shoulde not medle with the fathers kingdom, or countries but by the fathers consent. The elder bro∣ther not long after departed this life: which occasioned the Pope and his ad∣herentes to temper with Henrie the fift, though by nature and oth bounde to

the contrarie, that hee shoulde take the Scepter in hande, and rather beare him-selfe as king, than suffer a straunger to rise vppe and put both the father and the sonne in hazarde to haue the kingdome from them. This feare ioyned with a youthly desire to raigne, brought the sonne to take armes against the fa∣ther, and to meete him in open field, with a periured and wicked purpose to de∣feate him of his crowne.

The matter had come to dint of sword but that the chiefe on both sides ab∣horring those vnnaturall warres,* 1.729 pretended to parle as if they would compose the strife without blood; in which conference of theirs, the father found the Nobles that were with him, incline rather to the sonne rising than set∣ting, and to faynt from the possessour of the Crowne, for dreade of him that shoulde bee successour:* 1.730 and for that cause secretely conueyed him-selfe from the campe and fledde to the Duke of Bohemia and to the Saxons who before were his mortall enimies and the first attempters of his depo∣sition, but nowe, seeing that vngratefull and parricidiall attempt of his bowelles against him, honoured and assisted the father to the vttermost of their power. The Popes Legates and the rest of that faction fearing the friendes, and doubting the valour and former successe of Henrie the fourth turned them-selues to their Romish artes, and perswaded the sonne to faine a kinde of submission and reconciliation to his father, vppon this condition if hee woulde but retaine peace with the See of Rome. To that the father accorded, referring him-selfe and his cause to the indifferent iudgement of his Nobles and Princes, and receiuing of his sonne for the safetie of his life and honour, promises, teares, and othes; all which not∣withstanding hee was with a faire pretence ledde to a castle by the waie as they trauelled, and being receiued in as an Emperour, he was kept there as a prisoner,* 1.731 and this offer made him either to loose his heade, or to resigne his Empire: By these detestable periuries & practises the son gat the father to relinquish the Crowne: and this if you thinke to bee good successe you may say that Iudas had as good in betraying his master, as Henrie the fift in displa∣cing his father.

Phi.

The same Gregorie the seuenth did the like commendable iustice vppon the king of Pole,* 1.732 Bolislaus the 2. as wel excommunicating as depriuing him for murde∣ring of his Bishop S. Stanislaie at the verie altar. Against which sentence though hee stood by force and contempt for a time, yet at length hee was forsaken and resisted wholy by his subiects, fled, and in fine slue himselfe.

Theoph.

The iustice doone vppon Henrie the fourth was not verie commendable. One of your owne friendes confesseth the Prince was con∣demned Absens & inauditus; both in his absence and not so much as hearde wha•• he could say for himselfe. The Bishops of Italie & Germany thought it not verie commendable when they deposed the Pope,* 1.733 Quod Regem nullo ex∣emplo, anathemate praeter omnem causam perculisset: for that hee had accursed & depriued the king which was neuer seen before, & that without al iust cause.

And surely to restore the Prince to the communion as Gregorie did at Canu∣sium, and yet to defeate him of his Crown, and to set vp his seruaunt to rebell against him: this had no shewe of iustice. And if you commende it, you haue your consciences seared with an hoat Iron, and will speake nothing that may displease the Pope, be it neuer so iust or true.

* 1.734The murdering of Bishop Stanislay by Boleslaus the second, king of Polo∣nia, we mislike as well as you: but the depriuing him of his Crowne and al∣lowing his subiectes to conspire his death, that was to requite sinne with sinne and to reuenge murther with a more hainous and impious murder. It was not lawfull for the king to kill a Bishop that admonished him of his vici••us life; much lesse was it lawfull for subiectes to conspire the death of their Prince. Neither act was good,* 1.735 but of the twaine the Popes was the leuder. For in steede of reducing the king to repentance, which should haue beene his only pur∣pose, he interdicted the whole Realme from the seruice of God, which is rather the subuerting of innocents, than the punishing of offend••urs, & vsed the kings sinne as a pretence to incite the subiects to greater sinne, and to settle his vsur∣ped power ouer the Princes of Polonia that should succeede; by charging the Bishoppes to annoynt or crowne no king after that without his consent. Your own author confesseth no lesse.

When these thinges, saith he, which Boleslaus had done, were reported at Rome, Gregorie the seuenth then Bishop moued with the haynousnesse of the fact, interdicted the whole Realme from diuine seruice, accursed Boleslaus to the deepe pit of hell, and in solemne manner depriued him of his king∣dome, and commanded the bishops that they should annoint & crwone no king after that without his licence. Notwithstanding this depriuation Bo∣leslaus raigned a yeare and more after that, but hated of all (at home) and contemned abroade;* 1.736 in so much that the Nobles of Ruscia, which he had cōquered refused their subiection, and certaine of his Nobles and states at home conspired his death; which conspiracie being detected, he fearing lest moe were of their counsell, fled to (Ladislaus king of) Hungarie, who re∣ceiued him very curteously and honorably.

* 1.737He fled fearing his owne subiectes, whom he had tyrannously oppressed not long before with shamefull crueltie, as the same writer witnesseth; who also bringeth three reportes of his death: one that hee fell mad and slue himselfe; an other that in hunting he was cast off his horse and torne of dogges; the thirde that wandering into a straunge Countrie he became a skullin in a certaine mo∣nasterie, and there in repentance ended his life.

Phi.

If his ende were so straunge, his life coulde not bee good.

Theo.

I commend not his life, if it be true that Cromerus writeth of him; I rather ac∣knowledge the iust iudgement of God in taking vengeance of his sinnes.

Phi.

Why doe you not acknowledge the like in his deposition?

Theoph.

Because the Pope is not God, to whom the punishing of Princes sinnes doeth rightly belong.

Phi.

Would you that Princes should kill Bishops at the verie Altar

for doing their duties, and yet goe free?

Theo.

As if God were not both as sincere and seuere a iudge as the Pope?

Phi.

Who doubteth of that?

Theo.

Then shall they not goe free, that sinne against his lawe, bee they Princes or others.

Phi.

I speake of the meane time, before that day come wherein hee shall iudge.

Theo.

And in the meane time which you speake of,* 1.738 God mighti∣ly punisheth all sortes and states, though not by the Pope.

Phi.

He punisheth by diseases and straunge kinde of deathes, as hee seeth cause; but yet good Lawes must be made and maintained by men for the repressing of vice amongst men.

Theo.

Uerie true: but those lawes must bee made by Princes and not by Popes. Bishops haue not to do with the sworde which God hath giuen vn∣to Princes for the punishment of euill doers.

Phi.

And what if Princes them-selues be the doers of euill, who shall punish them?* 1.739

Theo.

Euerie soule must bee subiected to them, and they to God. They beare the sworde ouer others: not others ouer them. Be∣sides them or aboue them no man beareth the sworde by Gods appointment.

Phi.

The keyes are aboue the sworde.

Theo.

The keyes open and shutte the kingdome of God:* 1.740 they touch not the bodies nor inheritances of priuate men, much lesse of Princes. Onely the sworde is corporally to compell and punish, which is not the Priestes but the Princes charge, as I haue often shewed.

Phi.

To let Princes doe what they will,* 1.741 without feare of punishment, is the next way to ouerthrow common-wealthes.

Theo.

What kingdom can you shewe wherein it hath beene otherwise? Saul willed Doeg in his presence to ••lea fourescore and fiue of the Lordes Priestes, and hee smote their citie with the edge of the sworde, both men, women, children and sucklinges. Did Abiathar the high Priestes sonne, that fledde and escaped, depriue Saul of his kingdome? or did Dauid, for whose cause they were slain, when shortly after hee had Saul in his power to doe with him as hee woulde, seeke the kings life, or suffer his men to take it, that were readie to doe it? Dauid when he was king defloured Bethsabe and caused her husbande to be murdered. Did therefore any Priest or Prophet in all his Realme offer to depose him? or did Absolon well to conspire against him? Achab ioyned with Iesabel in putting * 1.742 Naboth to death, and * 1.743killing the Lords Prophets. Did Elias depriue him? or incite his subiectes to forsake him? Herod * 1.744beheaded Iohn Baptist, and likewise * 1.745 Iames, and apprehended Peter with a purpose to sende him after, but that hee was deliuered by an Angell: did Peter therefore take vengeance on Herode, which hee might haue done with a worde as well as on Ananias; or did he leaue him to the iudgement of God, which shortly after insued with an horrible plague? The tyrantes of all ages and vices of all princes both before the comming of our Sauiour and since, haue they beene punished by Priestes as you woulde haue it? or else haue they beene reserued to Gods tribu∣nals as we affirme?

Phi.

Some haue beene punished by Priestes, though not all.

Theoph.

* 1.746Shew but one prince for fiue thowsand yeares since the first foundation of the earth that was iudicially cited, examined & corrected by a priest til Hildebrand began this new president. If any princes were during all that time repressed, it was done by their own states & realms, & that for their extreme tyranny; priests alwaies refrained those attempts, and neuer thought it any part of their vocatiō to medle with the changing and altering of kingdoms.

Phi.

It is a better & readier way to reforme princes, to subiect them to the tribunall of one godly Bishop as we do, than to leaue them in thraldome to po∣pular tumults and mutinies as you do.

Theo.

We leaue them in thraldom to none but only to God,* 1.747 and to serue him is no thraldome, but an honorable and princely liberty. Yet if princes were to choose their iudges among men, they were farre better referre themselues to the generall consent of their Nobles & commons at home, than hold their scepters at the pleasures of disdainful & sediti∣ous Popes which seeke to dishonor their persons, & impouerish their Realmes.

Phi.

You speake this of spite.

Theo.

Your own examples wil proue it a truth.

How dealt Adrian the fourth, and Alexander the third with Frederike the first,* 1.748 a wise, valiaunt and vertuous prince? Did not Adrian receiue a great summe of mony to excommunicate the Emperor? & the stomack which the pope tooke against the prince, grew it not vpon these causes, for that the Emperor in his letters put his own name before the Popes, and required homage & fealty of the Bishops for their temporalities, and would not suffer the Cardinals to pray vpon the churches of Germany? Did not the Cardinals conspire & bind them∣selues with an oth that they would neuer choose any to be Pope,* 1.749 but one that should be an opposite to this Emperor? And when Alexāder the third was shuf∣fled in by that faction against Victor, did he not twise refuse to haue the matter discussed by councel, and stirred vp the kings of Scicily & France, and the states of Venice against the Emperour, and caused all the cities & countries of Italie to rebell against him, and hauing taken his thirde sonne prisoner, would hee re∣store him or make peace with the father til in presence of al the people at the dore of S. Marks church in Venice the prince had cast his body flat on the ground, & the pope setting his foote on the Emperors neck, had auanced himself with that part of the Psalme which saith, Thou shalt walke vpō the aspe & the basilisk, and shalt tread the lion and dragon vnder thy feete?* 1.750

The parts that were plaied by the Bishops of Rome with Frederike the se∣cond, Lodouik of Bauaria, king Iohn of this Lande, and Lewes the 12. of that name, king of France (which are your own examples) if I should largely pursue thē,* 1.751 a whole volume would not suffice them: I wil therfore rip vp so much only as shal let the reader see with what cunning these princes were wearied & with what pride they were despised, when they trauelled for peace.

Phi.

But say no more than you wil proue.

Theo.

Your owne friends shal heare me recorde that I doe not faine.

The griefe that Adrian the fourth conceiued again•••• Frederike the first, & the occasious therof, though I might report out of Radeuicus that th•••• liued,

yet had I rather take them out of Adrians owne words,* 1.752 in his epistle to Frede∣rik, which are these, By the word of truth we are taught, that euery one which exalteth himself shalbe brought low. Wherfore we maruel not a litle at your discretion that you giue not S. Peter & the holy Church of Rome that reue∣rence which you ought. For in your letters directed vnto vs you set * 1.753 your name before ours, which is a note of presumption, I will not say, arrogancie. What shal I speak of the fidelitie which you promised & confirmed with an oth to S. Peter & to vs, in what sort you perform it, when as you require ho∣mage & exact fealty of them which be gods, & the sons of the most high e∣uery one of them, I meane the Bishops closing their hāds within yours (whē you receiue it) & setting your self against vs, you shut not only the churches but the cities of your kingdom against the Cardinals that came frō our side? Repent therefore, repent we aduise you, lest whiles you couet the thinges which you should not, you loose that which you haue.

For the better discerning of the Popes ambitious & enuious spirit, you shall hear with what mildnes & lenitie the prince made his answere. Whatsoeuer re∣gality your Popedō hath, you gat it by the gift of princes. Whereupō when we write to the Bishop of Rome, by right & by ancient vse we set our name first. Looke your records, & if before you did not marke this which we say, there you shall find it. Of them, whom you call gods, I winne by adoption; since they hold part of our regalities, why should we not exact both homage, and an oth of fealtie, whereas our master & yours, holding nothing of any earth∣ly king, but bestowing all good things on all men paied tribute to Caesar for himselfe & for Peter, & gaue you an example so to do, saying: Learne of me for I am meeke and humble in hart. Let therefore your Bishops either re∣store vs our temporalities, or if they finde them so profitable (that they will not) let them giue to God that which is Gods, and to Cesar that which is Ce∣sars due. To your Cardinals our churches are shut & our cities not open, be∣cause we see them to be no Preachers but spoilers, no makers of peace, but snatchers of mony, no reformers of mē, but insatiable scrapers of gold. Whē we shal see them to be such as the church needeth, that is bringing peace, lightning countries, assisting the humble in equity, we our selues wil not fail to appoint for them necessary prouisiō & maintenāce. And (to tel you truth) you giue vs cause to suspect your humility & meekenes which is the nource of (al) vertues, when you quarel with temporall persons about these matters which make nothing to religiō. We cā not choose but send you this answere when we see the detestable beast of pride to haue crept vnto Peters seate.* 1.754

This reply, though groūded on nothing but manifest reason & trueth, did so sting the Pope & his Cardinals that they ioyned in a generall conspiracy with Williā king of Scicily, & verie neere all the cities of Italy, to crosse the Empe∣rour to the vtmost of their powers, and when the Pope died to choose none but one of the same faction that should continually pursue the Prince both with se∣dition and excommunication till they gate the vpper hande of him. Iohannis

Cremonensis a writer of that time saieth:* 1.755 In this conspiracie the greater part of the Cardinals, William king of Scicilie, and almost all the cities of I∣talie bounde them-selues with many Barons and other greater men: and a mighty masse of monie was giuen to Pope Adrian that hee shoulde ex∣communicate the Emperour. And farther hee saieth, hee learned of cre∣dible men of Millan and Brixia that were parties in this action, that the conspiracie with Pope Adrian was so fastned with othes that none of them might leaue the rest, or seeke the Emperours fauour without the consent of all, and if the Pope departed this life, they should choose a Cardinall of the same confederacie.

The reward which Adrian receiued at Gods hand as that writer sayth was this, that A few daies after he had denounced his excommunication against the Emperor at Anagnia, as he walked abroad to refresh himself, & came to a spring to tast of the water a flie by report entred his mouth, and stucke so fast to his throate, that by no helpe of Physitions it could be remoued, til hee gaue vp the ghost.

Phi.

Nauclerus, you knowe, doubteth of this storie because the Italian writers make no mention of it.

Theo.

That is no reason to disproue the wri∣ter:* 1.756 You know what Cuspinian a man of your owne side saith of your Italian stories in the liues of both the Frederikes. Merula (an Italian) not know∣ing the thinges which Emperour Frederike did, but as following Blondus or Platina, doth fouly erre many times. And againe,* 1.757 The Italians as Blondus & Platina both of one age, complaine of the want of stories. They disdayned to reade the chronicles of the Germanes, the which, because they sauored not of the Romane eloquence, they reiected, and missing in many pointes they affirm very often lies for truth. Some of them offended with the whole Nation of Germanie, call all the Germane Princes (that were Emperors) barbarians. And to flatter their Popes, they charge (the Germane Princes) with many moe vices (than they had.) Want of other writers before them, hatred of the Germans whose Princes often wasted Italie with fire and sword, and a naturall desire to magnifie the Pope, made the Italians disdaine to seeke the truth, or to dissemble it when they saw it.

Phi.

Did not the Germanes thinke you beare affection towardes their Princes,* 1.758 and spite the Pope for accursing and impugning their Emperours?

Theo.

I alleadge none but Priests, Monks, & Abbats that were in the Popes danger, and not in the Princes: and such as otherwise did honour the Pope, & depend vppon his See, saue when he offered so open wrong and violence that no Prince coulde indure it.

But we wade further than we neede. Nauclerus doubteth whether Adriā were choked with a flie: but of the conspiracie, which is the thing that I pur∣posed, neither hee, nor you can doubt. It was * 1.759 complained of by the Cardinals that refused their societie, it was * 1.760 confessed by the citizens of Millan, it was * 1.761 pro∣ued in the Councell of Pauia, it was reported by letters both from * 1.762 the Prince

& from the * Bishop of Babenberge to Eberhard the Archbishop of Saltzburge; it was verified by y^e sequele, I mean by the wilful resistāces which the cōfederat cities of Italie doubled & tripled to their vtter ouerthrow, and by inciting the kinges of Fraunce, England, Spaine, and Scicily to ioine against Frederike, which thing Alexander the third a Cardinall of the same conspiracie with A∣drian, laboured for life to compasse.

Phi.

Could you blame him? Did not Frederik set vp Victor an Antipape a∣gainst him, & chase Alexander frō his See?

Theo.

Frederike did not set him vp:* 1.763 but when two were chosen in a tumult, the councel of Papia discussing the cause pronounced for Victor against Alexander, & their iudgement did the Emperor follow.

Phi.

He might wel folow it, for himself did procure it.

Theo.

It is not true. The Bishops of Italie, Germany, and other Countries were assembled by him, and the matter committed as in the sight of God to their integrities and consciences. The Princes words in the councell were.* 1.764 Though I see the power to cal councels is ours by the office & dignitie of our empire, espe∣cially in so great dangers of the Church (for so Constantine, Theodosius, Iusti∣nian, and of later memory Charles the great and Otho are knowen to haue done) yet authority to define this weightie and chiefe matter I leaue to your wisedoms and iudgements. For God hath made you Priestes, and giuen you power to iudge of vs. And because in thinges which pertaine to God, it is not for vs to iudge of you: we exhort you to behaue your selues in this cause, as those that looke for none other iudge ouer you but God. This when he had saide, he withdrew himselfe from the councell, committing the whole examination of the matter to the church and to the persons Ecclesiasticall there assembled, which were infinite. There were fiftie Arch∣bishops, & Bishops, & Abbats and Priors innumerable. There were also the Embassadors of diuers nations promising whatsoeuer the Synod decreed, should vndoubtedly bee receiued of their Realmes. See their proofes and proceedinges of this councell in the chapters that follow, and shew vs howe you can infringe them.

Phi.

Alexander had the greater part of the Cardinals.

Theo.

The greater part of the Cardinals had conspired to choose none,* 1.765 but one that was and would be an enimie to the Prince, & to that intent had they taken an othe, Adrian yet liuing. After his death when they came to choose a successour, the people & the Clergie were as earnest to haue none, but one that shoulde keepe the citie at peace with the Prince. Whereupon the conspirators not daring to vtter them∣selues for feare of some vproare, nine of the Cardinals, the rest seeing and not contradicting, at the importunate clamour of the people and clergie, put the Popes mantle or cope vpon Octauian the Cardinall, and placed him in S. Pe∣ters chaire,* 1.766 and perfourmed all other solemnities of his inthronization with the great ioy of the whole citie, the conspiratours which were 14 in number be∣holding al this and not gainsaying it, or any part of it, though they were present.

Twelue daies after Victor was immantled,* 1.767 and possessed of the Pope∣dom,

& had receiued the obediences of the clergie throughout Rome, the conspi∣rators secretly departing the citie, & not so much as calling the rest of the Car∣dinals to their election, by them-selues without the presence or allowance of the people, or clergie, set vp Rowland the chief man of their faction to be Pope, & named him Alexander. This garboyle being brought to the Prince by the complaint of both partes, he by letters & messengers warned both sides to come to the councell that should be kept at Papia, and there to heare the iudgement of the Bishoppes for the determining of this strife, which Alexander and his ad∣herentes vtterly refused. These thinges were iustly proued before the Bi∣shoppes assembled at Papia, and sentence pronounced with Victor against A∣lexander.

* 1.768 What did Frederike in this case that a Christian Prince might not lawfully do in the like? How could he do lesse than cal both parts to the Synod, and com∣mit the matter to the iudgement of the Bishops? Or how could he but fauour & and defend that ••ide which was now cleared and confirmed by the councell?

Phi.

Victors election was faultie from the beginning.

Theo.

If there were any fault in Victors election, it was theirs that should haue presently protested against his ordering: but in Alexanders there was neither right, nor forme of any election. They were ioyned in a wicked compact, & had thereto bound them selues by oth, which by law was sufficient to forfeit their voices. Againe their own silence drowned their interest, when they would not, or durst not speake their minds at the time & place appointed for the choice. Thirdly to their electiō they called not those who had right to be present, & to choose as wel as thēselues, & therefore all that they did was vtterly voide. Fourthly they had neither the consent of the clergy, nor laity, which by order & duty they ought to aske. Lastly they disdained the summōs both of the Emperor, & y^• councel, which by the canōs they should haue obeied: and therefore might be depriued of the right which they had: much more discharged from that which they neuer had.

Phi.

The councell was not indifferent.

The.

No more is any iudge to him that offendeth.

Phi.

The Prince had no power to call the councel, much lesse to summon the Pope.

Theo.

You speake like your selfe. Who called the ancient councels, & summoned the Popes to be present at them,* 1.769 but Princes? And why might not this councell cite & depriue Alexander for his contempt, as wel as the coūcels of Pisa, Constāce, & Basil, did other Popes, that came after, for the like contumacie, specially whē as Alexander was yet no Pope, but in strife with an other for the Popedome?

Phi.

Platina saith, Alexander had 22. Cardinals, & Victor but 3.

Theo.

So Alexander himselfe craketh whom Platina followeth, but the contrary part testified that there were nine on the one side & fourteene on the other. Howbeit I stande not on these minutes of elections,* 1.770 I note first the causes that prouoked the Pope & his Cardinals to conspire against Frederike: next the meanes they vsed to persue him and wearie him.

The causes were, the setting of the Princes name in his letters before the Popes: the requiring of homage of the Bishops: & stopping the Cardinals from

spoiling his churches vnder a colour of visiting them. Of these pretences, and Frederiks answeres let the worlde iudge.

The meanes were:* 1.771 the Pope did excommunicate the Prince & his fautors, gate Crema, Placentia, Verona, Millan & Brixia to rebel, linked fifteene ci∣ties of Italie in a league with the king of Scicilie not long before his mor∣tall enimie, of purpose to withstand Frederike: procured Henrie Duke of Sax∣onie to forsake his master in the fielde: stirred the Princes of Fraunce, Eng∣land, Spainei, and the Venetians what they coulde, to annoy him. With these policies he began: and with these he continueth euen at this present.

Thus your holy father with warres, rebellions and conspiracies sought to shake this Emperour out of his cloathes:* 1.772 but God so assisted him, that he razed and destroyed the cities that rebelled, and turned the Duke that betrayed him out of his Dukedome, and electorship, and made the Pope glad to leaue his Palace, and flie to Venice in a cookes attire: and had not indulgence of nature wonne him to accept the peace, which the Pope offered, and his captiue sonne in∣treated, hee was like enough to haue taught the Bishoppe of Rome a newe lesson:* 1.773 but the time was then for Antichrist to be exalted, and therefore it plea∣sed the wisedome of God to suffer this worthy Prince to be weari••d, and con∣tent to imbrace peace for the safety of his sonne that was prisoner at Venice. Where, if it be true, that is written of Pope Alexander euen by your owne fel∣lowes, he shewed himselfe in his right colours.* 1.774 For willing the Emperour before all the people to lie flat on the ground, he set his foote on the princes necke and said, it is written, thou shalt, walke vpon the aspe and Basiliske, & tread the Lion and Dragon vnder thy feete. And the prince answereth, I do it not to thee, but to Peter whose successor thou art: the pope replied, (it must be done) to me as wel as to Peter.* 1.775 The Pope is now where he would be, not on meane mens shoulders, but on Princes necks: and that aduancement hath he gotten, not by religion or vertue, but by breaking othes, bearing armes, shed∣ding blood, and such like turkish and diuelish stirres.* 1.776

Phi.

Would you not he should defend himselfe?

Theo.

If hee be Peters suc∣cessour, hee must feede, not fight, teach obedience, not authorize rebellion, praie for his enimies, not persue them with force and furie. Else he succeedeth Romulus in murdering, not Peter in feeding.

Phi.

What if wordes will not serue, shall the chiefest Pastour of our soules see the keyes and the church con∣temned, and oppressed, and not draw the sword?

Theo.

That is in effect, if men will not beleeue your Preaching, may you not take boytels and knock them on their heades? Nay the case goeth not so well with you: You wage warres with earthly states, if they dislike your pride, or auert your gaine, you pretende Sainct Peter and the Church, when you meane nothing but your tempo∣rall commodities and superfluities: it suffiseth you not to bee free from Prin∣ces Lawes & swords, or to be their equalles, you striue with them to be their superiours, & to displace thē if they displease you. These be the quarels which your holy father and his adherentes haue professed, & persued for the space of

fiue hundreth yeares with all their might and maine: for these things haue you spilt more Christian blood than euer Turke, or Tyrant did: & at this daie you take it in euill gree that you may not still continue that course.

* 1.777With Frederik the first you fel out, for that hee durst place his owne name be∣fore the Popes, which all Emperours euer did: and as you fought with Hen∣rie the fourth to get clergie mens liuings of his hands, so you tumbled with this Frederik to exempt their persons: least they should either for commodity or duty leane to the Prince: & when he beganne but to looke to your fingers, that you should not decay his Realme & inrich your selues, you conceiued such immortal hatred against him, that you tooke an othe to reuenge him not onely by conspi∣ration, but euen by succession.

With Frederike the seconde you delt much after the same sort, whom you did excommunicate twise, thrise, foure times for no cause, without all order of law & iustice,* 1.778 as if princes had bin footbals for popes to play with, & not powers for christian Bishops, to reuerence.

Phi.

Was not Frederik the 2. excommuni∣cated for verie good causes?

Theo.

They were very good I promise you. Vr∣spergensis an Abbate then liuing saith of them,* 1.779 The pope of very pride the first yeare of his Popedom began to excōmunicate Frederik the Emperor for fri∣uolous & false pretences without al order of iudgement.

Phi.

But Blondus & Platina tel you an other tale. Blondus saith, The first yeare of his coronation, making light account of his oth he attēpted many enormous things against the Pope: who warned him to forebeare these * 1.780 wicked, perfidious and re∣bellious interprises, but he euery day more & more despised his admonitiō, which made the Pope to terrifie him with an excōmunication, if he did not relent & make restitutiō. And when the Emperor set light by the first curse, the second time the Pope added a depriuation from his Empire & crowne, & third time when the Emperor stood still out, the Pope very much offen∣ded therat absolued al his subiects from their othes,* 1.781 wherby they were boūd to yeeld him alleageance. And so saith Platina, Honorius the third did excō∣municate & depriue Frederik the second, for molesting the Popes dominion against right & law.

Theo.

Your Italians perceiuing their Popes to haue bin very waspish & eger against the Emperors that liked them not,* 1.782 & knowing what a shame it would be in the eies of al posterity for them to haue proceeded in such rage w^tout vrgēt & euident matter, in general words do charge those Emperors with many grieuous crimes. But we trust neither the Popes discretion, nor the reporters construction, vnlesse we see the particular facts that were commit∣ted. They may think those things to be hainous, which indeede are friuolous: and if the quarell were for lands and territories lying in question betweene the Empire and the See of Rome, the Pope did wickedly in his owne cause to a∣buse the keies for earthly mammon.

Phi.

* 1.783Who made you the Popes iudge?

Theo.

I iudge him not, there is one that shall iudge both him and his actes: yet I may ask you the causes for which Frederike was accursed & depriued.

Phi.

You haue heard them out of Blondus

and Platina.* 1.784

Theo.

Platina sayth, Contra ius fas{que} ditionē Pontificiam vexabat: he molested the Popes inheritaunces against all right:* 1.785 that Blondus calleth wickednesse, rebellion, and periurie: These bee high wordes, but I see no deedes. And if we credite them which wrote that verie present, when these thinges were doone, the Pope did the Emperour open wrong in receiuing and succouring his rebels against him. Vrspergensis sayth, the first yeare after Fre∣derike was crowned Emperour,* 1.786 hee began to warre vppon two Earles of Thuscan, Matthew and Thomas, which had surprised certaine fortes, and peeces of his territorie within Apulia: and cleane put them from all they had; who flying to Rome sought helpe at the Popes hand; whereof the Em∣perour often complained that the See Apostolike fostered his publike ad∣uersaries and enimies. This was the falling out betweene the Prince and the Pope which your Italian Stories do mention.* 1.787 Platina sayth, it was the Popes right: Vrspergensis two hundreth yeares before him, and a writer in the midst of these actions, saith it was the Princes right: and that hee did but rec••uer his own out of their handes: for the which Blondus chargeth him with rebel∣lion and periurie. Cuspinian therefore a man of your Religion verie truely noteth him & other Italian writers in this case for mere flatterers. Hauing re∣peated the same fact that Vrspergensis before did testifie,* 1.788 Thence, sayth hee, sprang the first occasion of enmitie betweene (the Prince and the Pope). Although the Italian writers doe say that Frederike the Emperour after the death of his mother Constantia, which kept him in tune, and would not suf∣fer to growe to these passions, did the worst hee coulde against Honorius the third, Gregorie the ninth, and Innocentius the fourth, & handled Rome, which had nourced him vp,* 1.789 as if she had beene his stepmother. But those flatte∣rers of the Bishop of Rome wil haue al thinges lawful for the Pope, inuesting him with both swordes, and making all Emperours but his seruauntes. This was Frederikes wicked rebellion against Honorius, that Blondus expresseth in so great wordes to winne his owne by force of armes out of their handes that inuaded him, and to requite them with the like; and such quarels can your holy father pick to Princes, when he is disposed to spit his venyme against Princes.

Gregorie the nynth,* 1.790 vpon lesse cause shewed more furie. Hee did excom∣municate Frederike the seconde, for that hee staied his expedition against the Turke till hee had recouered his health, and when the Prince sent his Em∣bassadours to make faith thereof, he would not so much as heare them, or see them. And after in the absence of the Prince whiles he was fighting against the Turke,* 1.791 the Pope inuaded his Land, and caused the souldiers that shoulde haue aided him against the Turke, to be spoyled and stopped of their iourneie, & a fame to be spred that the Emperor was dead, & the Almanes that returned frō Ierusalem to be slaine, least they shoulde notifie the Princes life and welfare.

Phi.

These be horrible lies,* 1.792 deuised by such as would haue the Pope in ha∣tred with all men.

Theo.

They bee true tales, and truer than those which some of your side haue coigned to claw the Pope with. Your own fellowes con∣fesse

as much as I say.

Phi.

Germanes perhaps in fauor of their Emperors.

Th.

If you refuse the Germanes of your own religion as welwillers to their Prin∣ces, how shall we receiue your Italians that were more than partiall to their Popes? Yet this aduantage we haue ouer you: the elder and sincerer Stories euen of your Romish profession and deuotion make with vs in these matters.

* 1.793Nauclerus discussing the causes of Frederikes excommunication, & repeating what Antoninus a Florentin writeth in the soothing of Gregories fact, addeth But surely by the epistle of Gregorie, which hee wrote to the king of France with this beginning, Out of the Sea is the beast ascēded, it is conuinced that Gregory at this time did not excōmunicate Frederike for these causes (which Antoninus pretendeth) but for that Frederik staied longer with his souldiers from succouring the holy land than the terme which he had vowed by oth, and was enioyned by the Pope vnder the paine of his curse. To the which the Emperor answered that he was vniustly excōmunicated for so much as he entred the iourney within the terme, & besides the death of the Lant-graue (one of the chiefest that should aid him) a dangerous sicknes constrai∣ned him to take lād again, & so by his euident infirmity ought to be excused.

Phi.

The Emperor fained himselfe sicke, & that the Pope vnderstood by the letters of Bishops that were in his traine.* 1.794

Theo.

That was the Popes replie to salue his doings: but why did he not voutsafe to heare or see the Archbishop of Brundusiū & others whom the Prince sent to make faith of his sicknes? why did he not expect the Princes purgatiō by oth or otherwise that his excuse was not fained? What seruant was euer so disdayned by his master if he were honest, but his reasonable defence was heard? And our holy father forsooth wil not expect, no not admit the Emperour of Christendome to make faith of his corporall infir∣mitie.

Phi.

We tell you he was not ••••cke.

Theo.

We tell you that was harde for you to know, & harder to proue. You should haue called his messengers to their othes or haue sent some to feele his pulse if you had suspected him, for a moi∣cher. In the meane time the worlde seeth the frantike pride of that wicked Pope,* 1.795 who not only denied audience to the Archbishop & other the kinges messengers, & would not so much as admit thē to his sight, but condemned & accursed the sick Emperor for not passing the seas to sight against the Turke.

And here see, the right vaine of your Romish iustice. Your holy father did hin∣der the prince secretly what he could by rebellions & vprores frō going against the Turk:* 1.796 & yet did excommunicate him for not going.

Phi.

Did the pope hinder him?

Theo.

Look your own stories. The yeare before, which was 1226. The Lombards, saith Nauclerus (as it was thought) at the suggestion of Honoriu•• the Pope entred a league amōgst themselues, & with the cities n••ere adioy∣ning against Frederike the 2. which continued many yeares, by the name of the Lombards league, a verie great annoiance to the Romane empire, and a manifest impediment of the iourney to Ierusalem, because the expedition which Frederike had promised to make into Syria, was kept off a long time by this occasion.

Phi.

This was but a thought.

Theo.

The league was apparent, the instigation was secrete. This confederacie if the Pope had not fauored, he should haue assi∣sted the Emperor with his keyes & cursinges,* 1.797 which were euer ready against Princes, but neuer against those that troubled them; yet if you thinke the Pope was no dealer in this conspiracie, read what Vrspergensis writeth of them the next yeare after his sicknes when the Prince was taking his voiage to Ierusa∣lem. In the yeare of our Lord, 1228. The Emperor minding to accōplish his vow, and appease the Pope, sailed to the Land of Iurie, and that yeare before his going he had indicted a generall meeting of his Princes at Rauenna, from the which he was hindered by the messengers & Legates of the Pope. For they of Verona & Millā suffred none to passe through their coasts, but spoiled the very souldiers that were to go against the Turk, & that, as they affirmed, by the authority of the Pope, which alas, is a shameful thing to speake of.

After Frederiks departure, as if the former wronges had not bin spitefull e∣nough, the Pope taking occasion of the Emperours absence,* 1.798 addressed a maine armie into Apulia, and tooke the Emperours countries from him who was then in the seruice of Christ (a most horrible thing to speake) & sub¦dued them to his own vse, & hindered the souldiers that were going against the Turke,* 1.799 the most he could, from passing the Seas, as wel in Apulia as Lom∣bardy. Who rightly considering these attempts, will not lament them, & de∣test them as the foresignes & prognosticatiōs of the ruine of the church? And when the composition was made between the Emperor & the Suldane, that Hi∣erusalem with certaine places neere bordering should be restored to the christi∣ans, & truce remaine for ten yeares: & the Emperor by letters aduertised the Pope & the rest of christendom of this ioyfull newes, The Pope cast away the letters & would not receiue them, & with his fautors, as men affirmed, made a rumor to be spred in Apulia that the emperor was dead. Wherupon the ci∣ties, that yet stood for the emperour, inclined to render themselues into the popes hands, & to kil the Almanes that returned from the holy land or were commorant in Apulia; a most barbarous and wicked purpose.

And lest there should want any thing to the vttermost of al wickednes, when Frederik (after his arriuing in the holy land) sent messengers to Rome to re∣quire absolution & reconciliation, because he had now perfourmed his pro∣mise, the Pope repelled his petition, & inioyned the soldiers in Asia to with∣draw their help frō Frederik, as frō a publike enimie. It was not enough to fil the Princes hands with ciuill warres when he should prepare against the Turk to stop and spoile his souldiers that should accompanie him, to inuade his lande, & sollicite his townes in his absence, your holy father must set the Christians, when they should fight against the Turke, togither by the eares, & wil them not only to forsake, but also to impugne their Emperor. What could the diuel him∣selfe haue done more, if he had bin couched in the Popes chaire, than Gregorie did?

Phi.

These things Gregorie himselfe denied, & the Italians that since haue

written,* 1.800 reiect them as false.

Theo.

So had they need. For if they should con∣fesse them, they must yeeld the Pope in so doing to be rather the foreman of Sa∣tan, than the Uicar of Christ. And therefore your Italian Stories presuming all that the Pope saide in defence of himselfe to bee true, and all that hee clay∣med from the Empire to bee his, raile on Frederike in great choler, as on a wicked, and faithlesse Prince, and acquite the Pope as doing his dutie in all these counterplots: But Italian wittes are too well knowen to be trusted when they are offended, and in Blondus a man may soone perceiue an intempe∣rate heate against those Princes that withstoode the Pope.

Phi.

You dislike our stories, and we dislike yours.

Theo.

May you dislike your owne, and such as then liued and honoured the See of Rome, hauing no iust exception against them but only that they could not apparel the Popes pride with some smoth de∣uises, as the Italians do?

Phi.

* 1.801Not long since you praised Blondus: haue you now cast him out of con∣ceite?

Theo.

I did commend Blondus for his diligence where affection did not interpeale him: But in this case, drawing all thinges to his appetite, the more diligēt the more dāgerous. He not only taketh euery word that Gregory spake for a Gospel, but addeth of his own head such things as Gregory neuer obiected to Frederike; & that with no small spite. For where Frederik complained to the Princes of Almanie, how iniuriouslie and deceitfully the Pope had dealt with him, amongest other thinges, whiles hee was in the seruice of Christ against the Turke,* 1.802 how the Pope had surprised a part of his kingdom with armes: Ge∣gory in his letters replied, that because Raynold Frederiks captaine inuaded the kingdome of Scicily, the speciall patrimonie of the church, least the See Apostolike should thereby be impugned, his Legates entred Frederiks king∣dom, & found many ready to submit themselues. This is all that Gregory pre∣tended who woulde not spare to speake any thing, that with any colour he might, in his owne excuse and against Frederike.

Blondus finding this to be but a simple cause for the Pope to inuade the Em∣perors dominion in his absence,* 1.803 & in that seruice, first for so much as the right of Scicily was in strife between the Empire & the church of Rome, & secondly for that if Scicily were held in fee of the church of Rome, yet Frederike was right heire vnto it by the mother side; & in ful possessiō of that kingdom before he was made Emperor: & therfore wel Raynold his captaine might put ouer souldiers into Scicily to man the forts for al occasions, & to containe them in their duties whatsoeuer should happē to his master in that voiage against the Turk: But o∣ther inuas••ō, preiudicial to the church of Rome the princes captaine neither nee∣ded, nor coulde make any; Bondus, I say, perceiuing that Gregories pretence woulde seeme but a quarel sought of purpose to make a rebellion against the Emperour whiles he was from home,* 1.804 helpeth the matter with certaine addi∣tions which are both odious and slaunderous.

* 1.805Frederik, saith he, ready to take ship & saile frō Italie, was so far frō asking the Popes absolution & benediction, that making one Rainold the gouernor

of the kingdome of Scicilie, in plaine words willed him to oppresse the Pope and Clergie by all meanes. Blondus might haue doone well to tell vs who stoode by and heard these wordes; which Gregorie would neuer haue omitted if he had knowen them. And if the Pope that sifted his words and deedes with all diligence knew no such thing, how shoulde Blondus so many yeres after come by the knowledge of them?

The other obiection, that he despised the Popes absolution, is as foolish. For as soone as he was landed on the other side, and began to march towardes the Turke, Platina confesseth that he * 1.806 was very earnest both by letters and mes∣sengers to be absolued by the Pope (from his excommunication) and could not obtaine it. To haue delt therefore with the Pope before his going to be ab∣solued, had beene in vaine, the Pope doubting that he would not goe, and refu∣sing, as your selues confesse, to absolue him when he was there arriued and en∣camped against the Turke.

Phi.

The Pope would not absolue him, because he went about to make peace with the Turke.* 1.807

The.

The Pope would euer haue some cause to molest him; o∣therwise I see no reason to mislike the peace. For whether the Turke stood in feare of him, or was to be distracted & emploied about other wars, I know not; the Emperor had not bin there a yere, but the Turke was glad to yeeld him the kingdome of Ierusalē, sauing the Temple & a few Castles; & to hold peace with him and Christendom for ten yeres. Which conclusion as it was honorable in it selfe,* 1.808 so was it acceptable to all Christian states, saue only to the Pope; mary he of meere malice against Frederike when the letters were brought, that should aduertise him of the Emperours good successe, threw them away, and shewed him-selfe much agreeued with the matter, as one that did abode, the Princes speedie returne would disappoint him of his hope. And he missed not his coniec∣ture. For within short space the Emperour recouered his townes that were lost, and staied those that were shrinking from him to the Popes no small regreet.

Phi.

He was offended with Fredericke for that the Temple was left in the Turkes handes.* 1.809

Theo.

The Prince perceiuing the Pope to enforce his countries at home & to irritate his souldiers against him, what els should he stay for, when he was once reuested with the kingdome of Ierusalem?

Phi.

Our Lordes sepulcher and the Temple were the chiefest things that the Pope re∣garded.

Theo.

And good cause why. They gate him more mony, and ridde him of moe enimies than any places in the world besides.

Phi.

Which way trow?

Theo.

The Pope no sooner lacked mony but he must haue a collection through Christendome for the succourse of the holy land as you call it, and if he fell out with any Prince or Emperour, or saw him likely to stand in his way that he could not rise so high as he would, he would neuer cease, what with excommunications to feare him, what with indulgences to allure him, till he had gotten his consent either to bestowe his owne person on the seruice, or at least to employ his treasures and forces to recouer the land of Iurie from

the hands of Saracens; and in their absence he ruled the roast as pleased him, and grew great by their decayes.

Phi.

Would you not haue the Turke resisted?

Theo.

Your holy father neuer tooke the way to haue that doone. He suffered the Turke to deuoure the Greeke Empire, and set the Princes of the West, not to helpe them, but to fight for the place where Christ was crucified by the Iewes,* 1.810 whiles the Turke in the meane time ouerthrewe many thousand Christian Churches, and Cities, else where & and nearer home. And the supplies of men and money were so stragling and interrupted with dissentions and discords at home, that the Turk reconque∣red more in three yeeres, than the Christians wanne in threeskore yeeres before.

Phi.

Yet the Popes good will is to bee commended: the fault was in them that woulde not agree.* 1.811

Theo.

And who was the cause of that, but onely the Pope?

Phi.

You speake of spite.

Theo.

Who filled the Emperours hands with rebellions and dissentions more than the Bishoppe of Rome did? Who brought the Empire to a bare title, and the Emperour to bee skant able to de∣fend his owne, but onely the Pope? Who cut Italie into so many seuerall Marquesdomes and Dukedomes as wee nowe see, but your holy father, see∣king to exclude the Germane Prince cleane out of Italie, and to hedge vp his way to Rome with many particular states, and regiments interiected, and all linked in one league to repell him from passing or entring their Countries?

Neither was it enough to straighten him abroade, vnlesse hee did also wea∣ken him at home, for feare least some valiant Prince occasioned by so popu∣lous and stout a nation as the Germanes are, shoulde attempt with force of armes to recouer Italie. And therefore you were neuer quiet till Germanie was shaken into as many shiuers as Italie, and the Emperour able to command none of them, but by their common consent, and according to their owne liking. Which is the state of the Empire in our dayes.* 1.812 This was not the way to make the Emperour strong against the Turke, for the regetting of Ierusalem out of his handes, but to diet the Emperour, and to take him so low, that he should not bee able to wraffle with the Bishoppe of Rome, without a present foile and instaunt daunger of loosing all. And thus weake though hee were, yet to make him weaker the holy lande was euer vrged by the Pope as a perpe∣tuall Lottarie, to make him, and other Christian Princes spende their peo∣ple and wealth with so small successe, and mightie losse, that no one thing did wast and weaken Christendome more than this.

Philand.

Is this the thankes you giue the Pope for staying the Turke from inuading Europe? Were it but for that respect, you shoulde thinke better of him than you doe.

Theo.

To keepe the Turke from subduing Chri∣stendome is a good and godly enterprise: but from that the Pope was fardest off. He woulde neuer assist the Christians of Grecia, continually figh∣ting with the Turk six hundred and fiftie yeres after the diuision of the Empire vnder Charles the great, before their Empire was ouerthrowen; but rather

held the Princes of Christendome from succouring them, vnlesse they would submit them-selues to the See of Rome, which they would neuer doe; though some of their Princes do now and then in hope of aide inclined to a kind of con∣cord. And suffering the Turke still to preuaile against them,* 1.813 and at length to swallow them vp, to the great shame of the Christiā princes that next adioined, but most of himself, who was well willing because they were not his obedients, to leaue them and theirs as a pray for the Turke, he would needes goe fish for for Christs sepulcher, as if that had beene the next way to safegared Chri∣stendome from the Turke; to keepe the place where Christ was buried; and to let him in the meane while conquere halfe Christendome.

And that made your holy father storme so much at Frederikes peace concluded with the Turke, wherein the Sepulcher was left out that hee would not absolue him after his returne but vpon the paiment of six skore thousande ounces of gold. Which after three pounds an ounce, as it is valued in our dayes, is * 1.814 three hundered and three skore thousand pounds. And though the Prince for all this monie had but one dinner at the Popes table, yet Blondus is so farre out of charitie with Frederike, that hee saith the Pope was easier (in receiuing so small a recompence) than hee ought or was fit hee should.* 1.815

Phi.

That monie was paied for the dammages doone to the Church by the Princes souldiers in their late warres,* 1.816 not for his dinner as you gibe.

Theo.

Blondus and Platina doe presuppose that Frederike by his Agents in his absence did spoile and sack S. Peters Patrimonie: but Gregory that receiued the monie, saith the Princes deputy inuaded Sicilie and no more, which was Frederikes right and inheritance, though the Pope claimed thence a yeerely custome. And therefore since Frederikes captaine did the Pope no wrong to inuade Sicilie, being his masters dominion, when the cities perhaps vppon the Popes censures beganne to slide from Fredericke: no reason the Prince should performe the losses and dammages of the warre, which beganne by the Popes egernes: and consequently no cause for the Pope to exact so much mony of y^e prince, but either for his dinner which was too deare; or for his keies which should not be sold, or for his fauor which dured not long. For within short space after they fell at worse variance than before, and the same Pope the second time accursed and deposed Frederike, and the matter grew to such heate that your holy father crossigned souldiers against the Emperor, as if he had bin a Turke or a Saracene.

Philand.

Did not Frederike rather play the Turke with such as fought against him,* 1.817 when he cut their heades in fower parts, and laide them crossewise on their shoulders, and with hoat Irons burnt a crosse in their foreheads whose liues he spared, and caused the Clergie mens crownes to bee cut square to y^e ve∣ry sculles? What Turke or Saracene euer shewed like crueltie?

The.

Al execu∣tions not in warre onely, but in peace also seeme cruell, if you looke to the pu∣nishments, and not to the offences.

Phi.

What was their offence?

Theo.

They rebelled against him for the Popes pleasure, whom by Gods Lawe they shoulde haue honoured and obeyed, as their Soueraigne Lord and lawfull Prince: and not therwith content, they take vp the crosse against him in their badges and banners, as if it had beene a∣gainst a Turke or an Infidel. If subiects so farre forget their dueties, as to vse their Princes like Infidels, because the Pope disfauoureth thē: why should not princes forget their clemencie, & reward rebels and enemies according to their deserts? It was therefore more enormous for the Pope to proclaime the crosse against a Christian Prince, (though his aduersarie for some priuate respectes) as hee doeth against the Turke; than for the Prince to inflict some such punish∣ment as should make them repent their follies.

Phi.

* 1.818Frederike impugning the Pope with all his might, why shoulde not the Pope such him-selfe the best way hee coulde?

Theo.

And the Pope brin∣ging rebels into the fielde against the Prince as it had beene against an Infidel, why shoulde not the Prince teach them to beware howe they vsed the crosse a∣gainst Christian Magistrates, which was deuised against Turkes and Sa∣racenes?

Phi.

The Prince himselfe was in all the fault.

Theo.

Because he woulde not suffer the Pope to ride on his necke, as hee had done on his graundfathers, and the rebellious Cities of Lombardie to shut him cleane out of Italie. For what other cause had Gregorie the ninth againe to excommunicate and depose Frederike after hee had shewed himselfe so desirous of peace, that hee paide a huge heape of golde to content the Popes ambitious spirite? What one iniurie done to the Church of Rome can your Italian Sories iustly charge him with after his first absolution? If you thinke your holy father may turne and wynd Princes like dishcloutes, and curse them, and depose them for what causes he lyst,* 1.819 then Frederike was in some fault, for that hee would not graunt peace to the Cities of Italie which rebelled against him at the Popes motion: but if that bee madde diuinitie, as in deede it is; the Pope himselfe was not wel aduised, first to set the subiects vp in rebellion against their Prince, and next to depriue the Prince for offering to represse them that resisted him. Shewe vs therfore what offence it was against the Popes holynes for the prince to compel his subiects to obedience by force of armes: or else wee must conclude your holy father did the prince open & wicked wrong to thunder his censures against him, for seeking his own by those meanes, which God hath allowed vnto magistrats.

Phi.

The Emperour hired some to rebel in Rome against the Pope.

Theo.

Your Italian writers would faine find holes in Frederiks coate if they could tel howe; but their tales hang not together. Platina runneth one way, Blondus an other, and Antoninus a thirde. Platina sayth that Peter Fregepanes taking part with the Emperour,* 1.820 kept the Pope out of Rome, and made him decline to Viterbium, as hee was going with an armie against the Emperour, whome hee vnderstoode to bee within Italie; and to oppugne the confederate Ci∣ties. So that by Platinaes confession the Pope was in armes against the Em∣perour

afore the fautors of Frederike offered him any violence.

Blondus a deadly persuer of Frederike with his pen reporteth this resistance made by Peter Fregepanes,* 1.821 before the Emperor entered Italie: addeth, as his maner is of meere spite, that the Prince had hired him with mony so to doe.

Antoninus as Nauclerus alleageth him, writeth that Frederike hearing the cities of Lombardie, Millan, Bononia, and many others of Romandiola * 1.822 to bee fallen from him, and turned to the deuotion of the Church, went against them with a great armie. And the Citizens of Millan with al their strength, and the Popes Legates and the whole confederacie of Lombardie, which did cleaue to the Church, fought a fielde with the Emperour in a place called New court, and the Millanoes with their adherents, after a sore conflict were ouerthrowen, many of thē being slaine, & many taken prisoners with their Carroch, where the Ruler of Millan being the sonne of the Duke of Venice and sundrie other Noble men of Lombardie were taken and sent into Apulia; the Prince causing the Dukes sonne to bee hanged on a tower by the Seas side, & the rest to be executed some one way, some an other. This Floren∣tine con••esseth the Popes Legates were in the battayle that was fought with Frederike, at his first entrance into Italie: and that the very original of y^e warre, was the defection of the Lombardes from the Empire to ioyne with the Pope, or as he speaketh,* 1.823 with the Church: which in deede was the only strife betweene the Pope and the Prince, whatsoeuer Blondus & others in hatred of Frederike do surmise. Uiew now this quarrell, & tel vs whether Frederike did more than a Christian Prince might doe: or whether the Pope rather did not wickedly nourish the conspiracie that the Lombardes made with Adrian the fourth a∣gainst Frederike the first, to driue the Emperour cleane out of Italie: which was the point that the Pope pushed at all this while.

Phi.

The Pope required nothing at his hands,* 1.824 but the preseruation of that league, which his graund-father made at Constans, and his father during his life had kept inuiolable.

Theo.

That peace included none but Frederike the first, and Henrie his sonne: it extended not to their heires and aftercommers, as appeareth by the othe of fidelitie which the confederate cities tooke to Frede∣rike then Emperour, and king Henrie his sonne, & no farther; and therfore that peace being expired by the death of his father, the Prince was at libertie to doe as he sawe cause.

Phi.

But the Pope sought the continuance of that peace.

Theo.

And the Prince perceiuing the Popes fetch in time to exclude the Emperour cleane out of Italie by the renuing of that peace, would not assent to it, but came with a mind resolued to bring the Lombardes to their former subiectiō. What wrong was this in Frederike?

Phi.

It was hard dealing.

Theo.

None at all. And considering the Popes drift, to be free from the Emperors force, that he might with more safetie quarrel with him when he lysted, and depriue him at his plea∣sure without daunger: it was necessarie for the Prince to settle his state & keepe his right in Italie: it should otherwise not be possible for him, and the Princes

that succeeded him to represse the Popes insolencie which beganne to increase apace. This was the true cause why Gregorie the 9. set himselfe against Fre∣derike the second after his first absolution, which cost so many thousands; what soeuer the Italian writers do imagine in hatred of Frederike whom they misli∣ked as well for persuing the Pope,* 1.825 as for spoyling and wasting their natiue Countrie.

Phi.

Did hee not well deserue their hatred, that ranged ouer all Italie with incredible cruelty? sacked their cities, filled euery towne, village & familie with mortal discord and dissention, banished and murdered Bishoppes, imprisoned the Cardinals & Prelats as they were comming to the Councel, & so pursued & inclosed the Pope that he died for very griefe of heart as Platina writeth?* 1.826

Theo.

Will you kindle a fire and then looke it should not burne? What other fruits of warre coulde you expect but these or worse?* 1.827 You made leagues to bereaue him of his right; you caused his subiects to meete him in the field, you accursed his person, and depriued him of his Empire, you came out in armes against him, as you would against a Turk or an Infidel: you did what you could to requite him & his with like rage and violence, & when you could not be euen with him, you thought it best to complaine of his crueltie. But you loose your labour: For warres are iudged by their causes,* 1.828 and not by their consequents. If Frederikes cause were good, as the persuite of his right & demand of obedience, within the Territories of his Empire could not be euil, thē your rebellions, confederatiōs, excōmunications, depriuations & such like actions to resist him, defraud him, or oppresse him, were al wrongful & wicked: and his reuenge of your conspiracies, & treacheries (though sharp and seuere) was lawful, & as the cause stood, needful.

Phi.

No Prince euer delt so badlie with the Church of Rome as Frederike did.

Theo.

No Prince was euer prouoked with halfe the iniuries w^t the which he was. He was foure seueral times solemnly deposed by the bishops of Rome, once by Honorius, twise by Gregorie, & lastly by Innocentius the 4. his * 1.829 good friend, whiles he was a Cardinal, but his capital enimie when hee came to bee Pope.

Phi.

It skilleth not how often it was done, so long as it was done for cau∣ses vrgent & important.

Theo.

If the Pope had any such power as he hath not, the causes must be iust and true, which these were not.

Phi.

Yes that they were. And though the rest did not so plainely expresse thē, which maketh you to carp at them, yet Innocentius the 4. layeth his downe in writing which are extant to this day.* 1.830

Theo.

You say trueth. The censure of Innocentius against Frede∣rike the second is extant in your Decretals: and foure causes of his deposition there remembred.

Phi.

And those no lesse than periurie, sacrilege, heresie, iniu∣rie, and oppression of the Church of Rome.

The.

If it be enough for you to ob∣iect what you list, you may soone condemne whom you please.

* 1.831We heare your holy father in his magnificence charge the Emperour with these foure things, but I winne it woulde trouble him, or you to prooue them. Hee committed periurie, the Pope sayth in his iudiciall sentence, by rashly breaking the peace that was made betweene the Church and the Empire.

If the trueth were well tried,* 1.832 this periurie lighteth on the Pope, and not on the Prince. For Howe coulde the Popes Legates be in the field against the Prince to assist his rebels, and not breake the peace that was made betweene the Church and the Empire? Is the Popes power so infinite that he can make right in the Prince to be periurie, and warre in him-selfe to bee peace?

The taking and deteyning of Cardinals and Prelates was the sacrilege which in this place is obiected to the Prince; but when you proue that Prelats and Cardinals be no subiectes, and that they may lawfully take armes against Princes, and yet no Prince must lay handes on them, then you may chaunce to haue an action of wrongful detynue against the Emperour, but not of sacrilege. It is a point of your popish pride,* 1.833 to make it sacrilege for a lawfull magistrate to restraine your parish Priestes of Rome from their seditious intens & practi∣ses. What are your Cardinals by Gods Law more than other Clergie men? or why may not the Prince both represse them, and punish them, if they disturbe his state?

Phi.

They were not his subiects.

Theo.

Then were they his enemies, & since they came armed,* 1.834 and presumed with their shippes to encounter his, why should he not sease them as his prisoners?

Phi.

They came to keepe a Councel, being thereto called by the Popes authoritie.

Theo.

To call Councels was the Emperours right, and not the Popes: and this conuenticle was called to oppresse the Emperour. Why therefore might hee not preuent it, and disperse it? especially when straungers offered to passe his dominion by plain force with∣out his leaue.

Heresie was the third crime,* 1.835 for which the Pope suspected him. Wherin if a mortall enemie may be both accursed and iudge, and proceede vpon no better ground than suspition,* 1.836 you may quickly condemne any man of heresie. Princes haue warme offices, if they shal lose their Crownes as soone as the Pope lysteth to suspect them of heresie.

The fourth cause is more foolish than any of the former. The prince forsoothe forced his subiects in Sicilie to aguise him, and obey him as their lawful prince, notwithstanding the Bishoppe of Rome had deposed him, and the persons that would not, hee banished and diuersly punished. This in deede was not for your profite, but this was nothing against his dutie.

Ph.

He forced them to impugne the Church of Rome, whose vassalles they were.

Theo.

The Church of Rome had a yeerely pension out of Sicilie which is here specified, more the Pope could not claim, and that pensiō was first yeelded by those that vsurped the kingdome of Sicilie against the Empire. For Roger of Normanie, whē Lotharius y^e Emperor had chased him* 1.837 out of Apu∣lia, & Campania, & taken those countries from him, (& * 1.838 intended the like for Ca∣labria & Sicilie, but that he was called away by suddain occasions, & died before he could returne) grew to a secret compact with the bishop of Rome, to hold the kingdome of Sicilie (which the Emperour claymed,) as from the Church of Rome by a yeerely recognisance. After the death of Lotharius, Conradus

the next Emperour was so troubled first with rebellion at home, & then with an expedition into Syria,* 1.839 that he had no leasure to thinke of Sicilie. Against Fre∣derike the first, who succeeded Conrade in the Empire, did William of Sicilie nephew to this Roger, (for his sonne raigned not long) conspire with the cities of Lombardie and the Bishoppe of Rome, to keepe the Germane Emperour aloofe from Italie, and so long they striued (hauing the Popes ayde) with excō∣munications, and rebellions, that Frederike beganne to hearken to a peace, and William of Sicilie hauing no children maried his sister to the Emperours sonne called afterward Henrie the sixt, and father to this Frederike, that wee speake of,* 1.840 as willing the kingdome shoulde returne to the Emperours line: who otherwise layd a chalenge to it. When William of Sicilie was dead, Hen∣rie the sixt by maine force of armes subdued Sicilie,* 1.841 and was receiued into Fa∣lernum the chiefe towne of Sicilie as a conquerour.

So that Frederike the second had a double right to the kingdome of Sicilie, either as heire to his vncle,* 1.842 in which case the Popes pension was not extingui∣shed; or els as Emperour, by reason his Father did recouer it by conquest, & reunite it to the Empire. Either of these tytles is sufficient to defend his do∣ings in Sicilie. As Emperour hee might claime it afore the Pope, & from the Pope, for so did Conrade the third, and Otho the fourth. As king of Sicilie, hee was to pay but a pension, not to be the Popes Uasal; and if the Pope should offer him any wrong, he might lawfully repell force by force, and punish the people of the land that would not obey him as their king, & assist him to hold his owne.

The Popes allegation therefore against Frederike for compelling the sub∣iects of Sicilie to continue their obedience, notwithstanding the Popes inter∣dict, is very friuolous. Frederike herein did no more than any Prince might, and would doe in the like state.* 1.843 And graunt he had somewhat abused the king∣dome of Sicilie, which he did not, is that a cause to remoue him from the Em∣pire?

Phi.

The other three be the principall causes.

Theo.

Two of them, namely heresie and periurie, be starke false: the thirde was arrogance in the Pope to make it sacrilege to touch a Cardinall: not wickednes in the Prince to take them as enemies, that labored to defeat him of his Crowne.

Phi.

You woulde take the Princes part, wee see, were his cause neuer so euill.

Theo.

You doe take the Popes part, wee see, though the sentence hee gaue bee neither agreeable to Gods Law, nor mans Lawe, nor his owne Ca∣nons.

Phi.

Howe proue you that?

Theo.

Nay it is hie tyme for you to come forth with your proofes, or els wise men wil discerne in Innocentius the image of Antichrist, proudly iudging in his Consistorie without regarde of God, or man.* 1.844 A professed aduersarie to sit iudge alone in his owne quarrel, and for cau∣ses apparently false, or friuolous, to proceede to the depriuation of a Prince, yea the greatest Prince in Christendome, and in right his Soueraigne Lord and master; neither admitting his proxie, nor hearing what exceptions he could take to his accusers, but appointing him to come in Person out of his owne Realme into an other princes Dominion, and to pronounce him guiltie of all

that was obiected, being neither present, nor heard, for that he refused to put his life into his enemies handes; If this bee iustice, the wild Irish, and Sauage Indians that know not what belongeth to cyuil societie, or humane reason, may be iudges as well as the Pope.

Phi.

If the crimes were notorious, and the Prince refused iudgement, why should not the Pope proceede against him in his wilful absence?

Theo.

The prince sent to shew the reason of his absence, & his atturnees to deale for him, as farre as should be needful, but that the Pope would not expect their cōming, no not the space of three daies, at the * 1.845 petition of most of the Nobles, & Prelates that were in his councel. The crunes pretended to be notorious were conceiued in great words, as periurie, sacrilege, heresie, & tyrannie: but the facts cōmitted by Frederike, as breaking peace with the Pope that tooke part in the field with his rebels against him, deteyning the Cardinals that went to work his deposi∣tion, and fought with his fleete constraining his subiects in Sicilie to acknow∣ledge him for their king, were temporal & priuate quarrels directly concerning the Popes attēpts against the Prince, and the Princes right to defend himself, which your holy father of his accustomed presumptiō,* 1.846 called periury, sacrilege, & tyrannie, & being the aduerse part, gaue iudgement in his own cause as liked best his own displeased & greeued stomack. Now how this could stand with the prescription of diuine, or moderation of humane lawes we would gladly learn.

Phi.

Your refuge wil be to impugne the Popes power which was thē confessed; though the hastynes of his censure were somwhat misliked.

The.

By whom was it confessed?

Phi.

By al men, euen by Frederike himselfe.

Theo.

You must make truer reports, before you giue true iudgements.

Frederike in his epistle to the king of Fraunce, shewing this sentence by all lawes to be voide,* 1.847 alleageth that though the Bishop of Rome had full power in spiritual things, so as he might bind or loose sinners whatsoeuer, yet it is no where read, that the Pope by the warrant of gods or mans law, may remoue the Empire when he list, or iudge temporally of kings & princes to depriue them of their crownes.

The cities & people of Italie by that opē & eger faction of Guelfs & Gibelines, which dured euen to our age, shewed how many there were that tooke with the Prince against the Pope, notwithstanding the Popes excommunications & de∣priuations, which you would so faine vphold at this day. This faction (of Guelfs ayding the Pope against the prince, and Gibelines standing with the prince a∣gainst the Pope) grew so general, sayth Nauclerus, that no citie, no towne, no people remained free from that infection•• Citie hath waged warre with Ci∣tie, prouince with prouince. One halfe of the people with the other, from that time to this our age for no cause else but for this faction; some helping their prince against the Pope,* 1.848 & some the Pope against their prince. For 200. yeres & vpward, saith Blondus, euen to these our times they pursued eche o∣ther with such rage vnder these vnluckie names, that the Italians wrought greater mischief among thēselues, than before they suffered at the hands of

barbarous nations.* 1.849 Towne against towne, Countrie against Countrie, the people of eche place diuided among them-selues, fought together for no cause but for this dissention; and their victories had no ende nor meane but bloodshed and vtter subuersion: neither onely neighbours and cohabitants, but those that dwelt fiue hundreth miles asunder, euen the poorer sort and beggars, as wel as rich and mightie men, when they met eche other, cōmit∣ted al crueltie one side on the other. This flame your holy father kindled in his owne Co••ntrie with his rash proceeding against the Emperour, so wide it skattered, so lōg it endured, so fiercely it raged, amōgst your own Deuotionists, and yet you would make the worlde beleeue the Popes power to depriue prin∣ces was neuer doubted of but in these our dayes, and by men of our side.

* 1.850What Germanie thought of this tragical intemperance of the Bishoppe of Rome, I speake for the most part of them, their manifest neglect of the Popes factours & bulles, & plaine speach in their Synodes and assemblees wil testifie. Which Auentinus, a man of the same religion that you are, thus reporteth. Albertus (the Popes agent in Germanie) sent the Popes bulles to al the Ger∣mane Bishoppes;* 1.851 for the publishing of Frederikes excommunication, not one of them obeyeth him. He commaunded the Abbats to accurse the Bishops: they regarded him not. He chargeth the Clergie to choose them newe Bi∣shops, and the Monkes to elect other Abbates, if they continued in this con∣tempt. Euery one began to maruaile at the straungenes of this example ne∣uer offered, much lesse vrged before his time▪ In no one place was this mes∣sage quietly heard. Al men stormed, disdained and raged: detesting the rash∣nes of the Popes Nuntio, whose life and manners they were well acquainted with.* 1.852 Germanie was ful of tumults, men saying plainely that the Bishoppe of Rome commenced a most shamefull enterprise against right and equitie.

Euen so when Rauerius an other of the Popes Agents deliuered Sigefride Bishop of Rentzburge a bull from Rome against the Prince, Al men derided the impudencie of the man,* 1.853 & demanded what that light and superstitious Frenchman,* 1.854 or what the Bishoppe of Rome himselfe had to doe in Germanie without the consent of the Germane Bishoppes his collegues. They were of∣fended and displeased to see such tumults raised, and discord sowed, they proclaimed with open mouth that the libertie of Christians was oppressed, and the flocke redeemed with the blood of Christ, brought into bondage by false Pastors.* 1.855 And when Albert woulde not cease, The Bishops of Germanie not onely made light of his mandates, but accursed him in euery Church, & Abbay, as an enemie of Christian concord, and a most pestilent Arch-here∣tike:* 1.856 decreeing him to be worse than any Turke, Iew, Saracene or Tartare: & openly blaming the Bishoppe of Rome for attempting those thinges among Christians, contrarie to right and reason, contrarie to the Lawe of Na∣tions, and Doctrine of Christ, which were not vsed among the most cruel Tartares.

In the midst of these sturres, the Nobles & Prelates of Germanie meeting

to consult for the state of their common wealth, Eberhardus the Archbishop of Saltzburge a graue and woorthie father; one that sate primate of that place fourty sixe yeres, and had experience of ten Bishops of Rome, vnder Frederike the first, Henry the sixt, and nowe this Frederike: hauing long tried, and well marked the driftes and cunning of the Romish Prelates, in the eares of the whole assemblie displaied your holie fathers armes with these wordes.

Our Lord and Sauiour Christ,* 1.857 did earnestly warne (vs) that we shoulde take heede of false Christ, and false Prophets, which couered with sheepes clothing, that is with the names of Christians and titles of Bishops, woulde tyrannize ouer vs and illude vs: and they as hee taught, must be discerned by their workes, to witte, their auarice, luxurie, contention, hatred, emulati∣on, warres, discordes, and ambitious desire to raigne. To whome did our heauenly king by these wordes more plainely point than to the Scribes & Pharisees of Babylon? Vnder the tytle of chiefe Bishoppe,* 1.858 if wee bee not blinde, wee see a most cruell wolfe in a shepheardes cloake. The Bishoppes of Rome haue their waies, and weapons for all sortes of Christian men. By presuming, circumuenting, kindling warre vppon warre, they are become great, and nowe thy kill and slea the sheepe, they dispell peace & concord from the face of the earth, they raise ciuill warres, and domesticall seditions from the pit of hell: euery day more and more they consume the strength of all men,* 1.859 that they may ride on the neckes of all men. Christ forbiddeth vs to hate our enemies, chargeth vs to loue them, and deserue well at their handes: to keepe sayth with them and doe good for their euill. But the Prelates of Rome commaund vs, and that vnder a ioly countenance of pie∣tie, to violate that which is holy, to abuse the sacred name of god to beguile men with, to be vngratefull to those that haue delt well with vs, and to re∣quite good turnes with euill: yea to fight, striue, deceiue, betray and cou∣sen: they wil haue vs set nought by the maiestie and prouidence of GOD, withstande nature, and resist the supreme power that is ordained of GOD. Hildebrand was the first that eight skore and tenne yeeres agoe,* 1.860 layde the foundation of Antichrists kingdome vnder colour of religion. This wic∣ked warre (with Princes) hee first began, which his successours haue pursu∣ed to this day. Beleeue me that haue looked in to their doings,* 1.861 (almost these fiftie yeres) they will not cease till bringing the Emperour on his knees, and dissoluing the honour of the Romane Empire, and also oppressing the true Pastors which feede, and dogges that are able to barke, they quench all, or kill al after this manner which you now behold. The highest God tooke the shape of a seruaunt that hee might minister to his Disciples,* 1.862 and wash their feete: but those Bishoppes of Babylon will raigne all alone, they can abide no equall, they will not giue ouer, till they haue trodden all vnder their feete, and sitte in the temple of GOD aduauncing them-selues a∣boue all that is worshipped: their thirst for riches and honour can not be satisfied. Hee that is the seruaunt of seruauntes, affecteth to bee the

Lorde of Lordes,* 1.863 as if hee were a God. The Sacred Synodes and Councels of his brethren, nay of his Soueraigne Lordes hee despiseth. Hee feareth lest he shall be forced to giue accompt of those things which he daily doth against all law and order. He speaketh proud things as if he were some God, he laieth new plottes to establish him selfe a kingdome, he chaungeth and maketh what lawes he list,* 1.864 he sacketh, spoileth, deceiueth, killeth, being that sonne of perdition, which they call Antichrist, in whose forehead is written, a name of blasphemie, I AM A GOD, I CAN NOT ERRE, in the temple of God he sitteth and raigneth farre and wide.

* 1.865I thinke you vnderstand him, he speaketh so plaine.

Phi.

He speaketh so odiously that I litle regard him.

Theo.

Yet an archbishop and in great credit with Fredericke the first, aboue 380. yeres agoe.

Phi.

We care neither for Fredericke, nor his schismatical Archbishop.

The.

Lesse care we for the wicked and Pharisaicall attempts of your Romish Anti∣christ: whose immoderat ambition,* 1.866 and intollerable presumption the Kings & Bishops of your owne religi••n haue alwayes detested and resisted; and that w^t vehement and sharpe speache, as you see by this example.

Phi.

What strange thing is it to see some withstand him?

Theo.

Lesse maruaile is it to see some obay him. The name of the Church, the power of the keyes, the dumbnes of Bi∣shops, & discord of Princes made many men yeeld, that otherwise would not.

Phi.

The Princes of Germanie choose an other in his place as soone as the Pope by his letters willed them.

Theo.

The one halfe of the electours were Bishops, that neither durst nor would abide the Popes furie: in the other halfe it was easie to finde one that would be seduced, displeased, or some way corrupted to go to the choice of a new,* 1.867 but that the elect of theirs was slaine the same yere in the siege of Vlme, & William of Holland that was chosē next after him had as short a dispatche by those that tooke part with Fredericke.* 1.868 And had you not beene more actiue with your poisons, than lucklie with your electi∣ons: Fredericke had sped them faster than you had named them.

Phi.

His own bastard stisled him.

Theo.

But his Antagonists first dren∣ched him; & so Cuspinian sayth, The Popes hatred against the Prince ceased not,* 1.869 whom he night and day deuised how to destroy: & after the conspiracie of Theobaldus, Franciscus, Gulielmus of San Seuerine, and Pandulphus was dete∣cted, who cōfessed they were set on by the Pope, as Peter de Vines witnesseth in his second booke & tenth, & thirtieth epistle: Yet at last the prince could not be so watchful, but when he returned to Apulia, hee was poysoned. And lying very sicke of the potion which he tooke, and beginning at length to recouer, he was stifled of Manfrede his base sonne with a pillow as he lay in his bed. Thus you made away that worthie Emperour Frederike the second: and these bee the weapons of your Romish warfare against Princes,* 1.870 excommu∣nications, rebellions, poysons.

Phi.

You rai••e without all reason.

Theo.

I speake no more than trueth. Your owne examples shall iustifie the same. Omitte Henry the seuenth,

called Henrie of Lucenburg, whome a Dominican Frier* 1.871poysoned in the chalice: Lodouike of Bauaria and king Iohn of this lande,* 1.872 were they not thus persued and thus dispatched?

Beginne with Lodouike the fourth. What cause had Iohn the 22. to curse and banne him, and to condemne him for an heretike?

Phi.

Platina telleth you,* 1.873 he called himselfe Emperour without the authoritie of the See of Rome, and ayded the deputies of Italie to get the citie of Millan, and to be Lords ouer it.

Theo.

Two shamefull sinnes I assure you. He had * 1.874 foure voyces, when he was first chosen in contentiō with Frederike of Austria. Auentinus saith he had fiue: after in the field he tooke the other elect prisoner, and so ended the strife:* 1.875 why then should he not take himselfe to be lawful Emperour?

Phi.

The fourth voice which did the deede was cunningly stollen. For where the Marquesse of Bran∣denburge then absent wrate his letters for Frederike,* 1.876 his name was rased out and Lodouikes conuaied in.

Theo.

Sir, by your leaue, that is a legend. The marquesse of Brandenburge sent his substitute with a general cōmission to choose as hee sawe cause,* 1.877 though as some said, his meaning were that Frederike should haue his voyce: and that instruction hee had giuen priuatly to the partie that was sent: who deceiued his expectation, and named Lodouike.

The second obiection is more absurd.* 1.878 For Lodouike aided those that stoode for the safetie of the Empire against the Popes incourses & practises. And that, since he was chosen Emperour, in honour and equitie he was bound to do.

Phi.

He ayded them against the Church.

Theo.

The Church of Christ hath nought to do with the warlike & wilful tumults of Popes.

Phi.

He made a new Pope against Iohn the 22. and set him vp as an Idole in Peters chaire.

Theo.

The Pope before that had done y^e worst he could against Lodouike; openly excōmu∣nicating him and all his fauourers,* 1.879 and appointing him three monethes to renounce the election to the Empire that was made of him, and come per∣sonally to excuse himselfe of his fact in giuing ayde to heretiques, schisma∣tikes, and such as were rebels against* 1.880the Church He also depriued al Cler∣gie men, that yeelded the Prince any counsell, helpe or fauour. And when Lodouike appeared not, the Pope accursed him, and condemned him of heresie. These be the sober and graue proceedings of your holy father, which he and his flatterers called the defence and exaltation of the church. But the soun∣der and sincerer of his owne Canonists and schoolemen abhorred, as the confu∣sion and desolation of all Godlines.

Hermannus, then lyuing, sayth,* 1.881 These proceedings (against Lodouike) were curiously obserued by some, but very many reputed them litle worth, because as men said they were examined by the Doctours of both Lawes & pronounced by them to bee vtterly voyde.* 1.882 Yea many famous diuines well commended for their learning and life concluded the Pope to bee an here∣tike for certaine errors, which hee coldly recanted at the houre of his death, and Benedictus his successor, is reported to haue publikely condemned those erronious opinions.

Phi.

Nothing is so well done that all men like it.

Theo.

It must needes bee euill that so many of your owne side mislike; yea which the Pope that came next, most of all others misliked. For when the kinges of Fraunce and Apulia by their Legates defaced the person of Lodouike and rehearsed what thinges hee did against the Church,* 1.883 the Pope replied, nay wee did against him. Hee would haue come to the feete of my predecessor, if hee might haue beene receiued to fauour:* 1.884 and that he did, hee did it pro∣uoked.

The Prelates and Princes of Germanie being assembled at Franckforde, with their common consent reiected all the Popes iudicial processe against this Emperour as wholy voide,* 1.885 and of no validitie; the Prince declaring so much by his Imperial decree. By the counsell and consent of all the prelats & prin∣ces of Alemannie assembled at our towne of Francford wee denounce & de∣termine these processes (of Pope Iohn against vs) to bee none in Law,* 1.886 and of no strength or force. And wee straitly charge and commaund all and eue∣ry within the limittes of our Empire, of what condition & state soeuer, that no singular person, nor societie presume to obserue the sayde sentences of excommunication and interdiction.

Where also you may see the protestations and allegations of that Prince a∣gainst the doings of Pope Iohn, taken out of the groundes of your owne Ca∣nons and the very same that are defended of vs at this day as warrantable by the sacred Scriptures and auncient order of Christes Church:* 1.887 namely these, The Prince hath his (sword or) dominion not from the Pope, but only from God. The sacred Canons, and the Church of Christ prohibite and doe not graunt to the Pope the right of the Empire, and power in temporall things. The sentence is ipso iure none, which is erroneous: as when it commandeth the subiect not to obey his superiour, or prescribeth any thing against God, or the Scripture. But it is manifest that Pope Iohn hath cōmaunded that our subiectes shall not obey vs, to whome all that are in our Empire ought to yeeld alleagance and reuerence by the Lawes of God and man.

* 1.888This hee did vppon conference had with the best learned that were in his age. When it was knowen in Germanie, what Pope Iohn had decreed, Ludo∣uike, sayth Auentine, consulted the best Lawyers and skilfullest diuines that were in Italie, Germanie or France: especially the doctors of both lawes, and diuines of Bononia and Paris. They all wrote back that the actes and de∣crees of pope Iohn against the Emperour,* 1.889 were repugnant to Christian simplicitie, and the heauenly Scriptures. The men of note and such as wrote against the Pope for this inordinate presumption were Marsilius Patauinus, Iohannes Gandauus, Andreas Laudensis, Vlricus Haugenor, Luitpoldus de Babenburg, Dantes Alligerius, Occam, Bergomensis, Mi∣chael Caesenas.

Phi.

What, Recken you these? The most of them were condemned by the Church of Rome for heretiks.

Theo.

They were condemned by the Pope for speaking truth. Marsilius booke is extant intituled, * 1.890 The defender of peace:

What error can you charge him with,* 1.891 but this that hee wrote against the in∣sufferable pride and ambition of the Pope? Dants error, for the which he was condemned, your friendes affirme to be this, for that in his booke of the Mo∣narchie, he saide: The Romane Empire had no dependance of the Pope (in temporall things) but only of God.* 1.892 Occam the Minorite pursued that argument so farre, that he brought the Popes power and his Prelates touching their tēporal dominiō, to nothing.* 1.893 These were their errors for y^• which the Church of Rome otherwise called the Pope and his Cardinals, condemned these lear∣ned and innocent men. With as good reason you might haue condemned christ and his Apostles, for the same causes. S. Paul auoucheth the one: There is no power but of God: and Christ himselfe commaunded the other,* 1.894 Kings of na∣tions beare (temporall) rule. You shall not doe so.

Phi.

They held other errors.

Theo.

Euen such an other.* 1.895 For this was against the state and pride of Prelates: and that touched their cofers and treasures; which indeede were their Goddes. The Poore Franciscanes beganne to dis∣pute that it was a signe of more perfection, and a neerer resemblance to the life which Christ and his Apostles ledde on earth for clergie men to renounce the world, and possesse nothing of their owne, rather than to nestle themselues i•• the sweetest and richest seates of christendome, and t•• heape vp mammon and wealth, in such abundance, that they were able not only to beard Princes in their Palaces, but also shoulder them in the field.* 1.896 The ground of their opini∣on they tooke from your canon Law, and your holy father himselfe in erecting the Rule of Frier Frauncis could confesse as much: mary when the Emperour in hatred of the Popes hauftines and greedines cast some fauour to the Francis∣canes: the Pope to match the Prince, gaue forth an edict, and made it heresie to say that Christ & his Apostles possessed nothing in this world: which because the Friers impugned in their schooles and sermons, the Pope cōdemned them and all their aiders and abetters, whereof Lodouike was one, for heretikes.

This is that other heresie for the which Micheal Cesenas, Occam and other Franciscanes, and Lodouike the Emperour, as a Patrone of theirs were im∣peached: which Platina thinketh was scant aduisedly doone by the Pope and his counsellers.* 1.897 Pope Iohn, saith he, set foorth a Decree, wherein he decla∣red them to be rebels (to the Church of Rome) & heretikes, which affirmed that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne.* 1.898 This decree doth scant accord with the sacred Scripture, which testifieth in many places that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne. Thus your holy father to spite the prince, and to reuenge such as opened their mouthes at his sumpte∣ousnes and furiousnes, made it heresie to commend humilitie and pouertie.

Philand.

That Christ and his Disciples did possesse nothing neither in priuate nor in common, this was their error; and not as you report it.

Theo.

In deede it is worth the noting,* 1.899 howe finely your Holie Father did circumuent them. For where they ment that Christ and his Apo∣stles lefte the worlde to follow their vocation, and woulde after possesse

nothing superfluous neither in priuate, nor common, but helde themselues satisfied with apparell, and foode, such as the goodnesse of GOD by the almes of other, or by their owne industrie, not slacking their function, did prouide for them: the Bishope of Rome hauing alreadie gotten a good part of the Empire into his hands, and daily deuising newe quarels to get more: and besides oppressing al Christian Realmes with intollerable taxes and pai∣ments for the maintaining of his warres,* 1.900 and furnishing of his other expences, which were both needeles and excessiue: and knowing by this vrging of christs and his Apostles pouertie, which the friers began euerie where to publish, how vnlike he should appeare to S. Peter, whose successour hee would seem to be: peruerted the wordes and sense of the poore friers; as if they had taught that the diete and raiment, which Christ and his Apostles vsed, had not beene their own,* 1.901 but wrongfully taken and vniustly withheld from others that were the right owners; and with this shifte made it heresie and blasphemie to say that Christ had nothing of his own: where the friers were neuer so madde to defend that Christ and his Apostles had no right nor proprietie to the clothes which they ware, and meates which they vsed, but they rather detested the monstruous wealth and riote of Monckes and Bishops which pretending to forsake the worlde and followe Christ, heaped greater riches and wallowed in oftner pleasures than any secular persons: which soare when the wretched friers began to touch,* 1.902 they were condemned and burned for heretikes.

These were the principal grifes against Lodouike, which the Pope and the Cardinals could neuer digest, I meane his resisting their pride, and misliking their wealth for these causes, when he offered reconciliation and satisfaction, that the Christian world might haue rest from those domesticall warres and miseries, the Pope would receiue none, but on these conditions: that the Prince shoulde confesse him selfe guiltie of al those errors and heresies that were laide to his charge: that he should resigne the Empire, and not resume it without the Popes leaue:* 1.903 that he should put himselfe, his Children and his goods into the Popes hands,* 1.904 to be done withal as should please the Pope. Such was the mildnesse of this Romish Sainct, that his hart could not be satisfied but with the vtter destruction of the Emperour and his children: which when the Princes and Bishops of Germanie perceiued, they signified their generall determination to Lodouicke in these wordes:* 1.905 Most gratious Lord and Emperour, the Princes electours and other the faithfull of your Empire, perusing the articles of your submission, which the Pope requireth and resteth on,* 1.906 with one consent haue decreed them to be conceiued to the subuersion and ouerthrow of the Empire, so that neither you, nor they by reason of the othe you haue taken to the Empeire, can yeeld to them: and they intend to send oratours to the Pope, and to the Colledge of Cardinals to request them to cease from this course. If they refuse, your Princes are resolued to meete at Rens vpon Rhene, there to deliberate with you for the farther resisting of these practises.

Phi.

If these electors were so earnest for Lodouik, how hapned they choose Charles the fourth against him?

Theo.

The Pope wan the Duke of Saxonie with monie as * 1.907Conrade of Maidenburge craketh: and so with a newe Arch∣bishoppe of Cullen whome the Pope intruded, the former incumbent yet liuing, Charles sonne to the king of Bohemia, and nephew to the Archbishop of Treuers, was chosen; who were easily induced to consent to the election of one so neere them in blood: but neither would the Princes of Germanie receiue him, nor durst hee medle with the Empire so long as Lodouike liued.* 1.908 For when Ludouik called the Nobles togither vpō the choice of Charles, & asked thē whe∣ther of the twaine they would haue to beare rule ouer them, The whole assem∣blie without any staie cried out that Lodouike was their Soueraigne,* 1.909 and their Emperour appointed by God, and that they woulde continue in his o∣bediēce. And there detesting the persidiousnes of those few (that made this new choise) & defieng Charls in the worst words they could giue, with great zeale: they renewed their oth to Lodouike and promised him their helpe to reuenge that wickednes.

And so Charles hated of all (the Germanes) for the breach of his oth (to Lodouike) and no where receiued as Emperour,* 1.910 was conueied into Bohemia. Neither durst he come out of his hoale, or take the gouernment vpon him so long as Ludouike liued. Nauclerus likewise confesseth that, Ludouike gathe∣ring the imperiall cities togither at Spires foūd them very earnest on his side, so that none of the cities of Rhene, Sueuia, or Franconia any whit esteemed the new election of Charles, or the Popes processe.

In this state they stood,* 1.911 defending their Prince and neglecting the Pope till the death of Ludouike, who being well in health and verie pleasaunt at a feast where he met the Dutchesse of Austria,* 1.912 as soone as he drank of the cuppe which the Dutchesse reached him, presently felt himselfe sicke: & as Cuspi∣nian sayeth * 1.913 feeling a griping at his hart, suspected himselfe to be poisoned: and getting on his horse to ride abroade, * 1.914 was stroken with a palsie, and fell from his horse and gaue vp the Ghost.

After his death, the Bishop of Mentz, the Marquesse of Brandenburge,* 1.915 the Palatine of Rhene, with the Duke of Saxonie that newly succeded, cōcluding the choice of Charles to be voide, sent a solemn message to Edward the third, king of England, inuiting him to take the Empire. But hee with thankes re∣fused it.

Not long after they choose Gunter:* 1.916 who the same yeare was poysoned with a potion, his Physition also dying within three dayes, whom the king com∣maunded to drinke before him.

Phi.

This was not the Popes doing.* 1.917

Theo.

Whose doing it was we know not, but thus they were made awaie that with∣stood the Pope.

And so was king Iohn of his Land: vppon whom your holy father, and his religious adherēts shewed the fulnes of your Romish deuises. You forced a dis∣ordered election vpon him, and when he would not like it, you depriued him of

his crowne and offered the same to the king of France and to his heyres for euer with full remission of his and all their sinnes that would take weapon in hande to driue king Iohn from his Realme.* 1.918 And after you had assembled a mightie force against him, you counselled him rather to resigne his crowne into y Popes handes, and to take it againe of him in farme, than with fire and sword to be cha∣sed out of his land, and loose both his kingdom and his life. And by this cunning when you had gotten the kings graunt to subiect himselfe and his crowne to the church of Rome, you restrained him, & cursed the Frenche kinges sonne & soul∣diers (whom your selues had incited to this pray) for not leauing off, when you willed them: and loosing all their labour and charges, when you were once sea∣sed of that you sought for. In the end when you saw him so much in the Popes fauour, that he preuailed against his Barons and Bishops as he would him∣selfe, you sent him packing with poyson, which a Monk tempered for him in the Abbeie of Swinesteade not farre from Lincolne.

Phi.

That he was poysoned is not true; as also that Stephen Langhtōs ele∣ction to the See of Canterburie was disordered: and as for the rest, I see no cause why you should mislike.* 1.919

Theo.

That he was poysoned is witnessed by Caxton, Hemingfoord and others: Matthew Paris and Matthew of West∣minster in fauour of the Monk that did it, themselues being Monkes, say he sur∣fited with eating Peaches and drinking sweet wine: which also the rest affirm: but those they auouch were poisoned. Polydor bringeth both reportes as fin∣ding them both written. There are, saith hee, which write that a Monke (of Swinestead) prouoked with certaine wordes (which king Iohn spake) tem∣pered poyson with wine and dranke thereof himselfe before the king to get him to doe the like, and so they both departed this life almost at one instāt.

Of Stephen Langhtons election to the See of Canterburie, we need no bet∣ter witnes than y^• Monke of S. Albons that was then aliue,* 1.920 & had no fansie to king Iohn, as may ••e seene by his writings.

Phi.

Will you stand to his opinion in this cause?

Theo.

Historiographers vse to declare what was doone, not to de∣cide what was wel or euill done. I take the fact as he reporteth it: let the reader be iudge of the cause.

Some of the Monks of Canterburie choose their Subprior to be Archbishop, in the night without any solemne forme,* 1.921 without the kinges consent, and without the greater part of the conuent; the rest choose the Bishoppe of Nor∣wich, in the day time, the king being there and consenting to their ele∣ction which was celebrated before sufficiēt witnesses. Both parts presenting their electes to the Bishop of Rome, after long discussing, the Pope pronoun∣ced either election to bee voide,* 1.922 and disabled both the contendours to bee chosen to that See. And knowing what good an Archbishop might doe him in furthering his collections & exactions in this Land, he commanded the Monks there present vpon paine of excommunication to make choice of Stephen Lāgh∣ton before they departed the place. And when the Monks answered they could not celebrate an electiō that would be canonical without the kings cōsent,

& the rest of their couent, the Pope catching the word out of their mouthes, said, know ye that in elections made here with vs the assent of Princes is not wont to be expected. Wherfore in vertue of your obedience, & vnder the dā∣ger of our curse,* 1.923 we cōmand you to choose him, whom we appoint you to be the father & pastor of your soules. So the Monks for fear of excōmunication, though against their willes & not without grudging gaue their voices, and choose Stephen Langhton to be Primate of England.

Let go the wrong, which the Bishop of Norwich receiued, in that the Pope of his mere pleasure did frustrate his election to gratifie one of his own. What Law permitteth the Pope to force men in their elections to choose whom he list to prescribe?* 1.924 How could that election be good which was plainly wrested from a few Monks beyond the Seas with threats & excommunications, the rest that were at home, being neither called, nor boūd to go out of the Land for the choice of their Archbishop? Why should not the king refuse that violent and shamefull packing of the Pope to plant his Cardinals in this Realm? Or what should the king looke to haue of him that was deuoted to the court of Rome, & obtruded on him in this violent maner, but a deadly enimie to his state, as it after fel out, and a continuall practiser against his person?

Phi.

That is your suspition.* 1.925

The.

It proued too true for the kings auaile. For this prelat not only incēsed the Pope against the king that he might be receiued to his See, but after the king was reconciled, and himselfe quietly possessed of his church, he * 1.926 set all the Barons of this realme in an open rebellion against the king, that neuer ceased till the king was poysoned.

Phi.

You charge him vntru∣ly.

Theo.

His owne actes will not belie him.

The next yeare after his vntoward election, the Pope interdicted the whole Land, for that the king would not admit Steuen Langhton into his Realme, (no point of godlie discipline to chaftise the king, but a tricke of your Romish policie to get the subiects to murmur at the Magistrate) And foure yeares after when the Pope staied somwhat long as they thought in contriuing his matters against king Iohn: your Canterbury Cardinall with the Bishops of London and Flie went to Rome, & cōplained to the pope of the manifold rebelliōs & enormities,* 1.927 which king Iohn had cōtinued frō the time of the interdict to that present day, increasing his cruelty & tyrāny (so these ambitious hirelings ter∣med their soueraignes doings) against God & his holy church without inter∣missiō. Wherupō they made supplicatiō to the pope, that he would voutsafe of his godly cōpassion to helpe the church of England in this extremity. So nice your clergie was y^• whē they were but a litle defalked of their abundāces & superfluities, they could no longer abide it, but desired to haue the king deposed.

Phi.

The king seased on all their goods, caused them to redeeme their immu∣nities & liberties, & raised a grieuous persecutiō against y^e whole clergy through out England.

Theo.

We doubt not, but your Monkes in this freight wil make great flames of smal sparks. The king of Englād did, as any prince in this like case would. The clergy of this realm, was at that time a richer and wealthier

state than the Laitie, discharged from all burdens and taxes to the crowne by the fauor of the Princes his progenitors. If therefore when the Pope beganne to quarrell with the king about the chiefest church in his Realme, and offered him so open wrong, the cleargie were readie with their wealth and strength to assist the Pope against the king, why should not the king both sease their goods into his handes, & make them redeeme their priuileges which they were wel a∣ble to doe, for the maintenaunce of his crowne and kingdome against a wicked and iniurious oppressour?

And sure for ought that I see the king did but iustice. For where the clergie refused to doe their duties,* 1.928 and would not so much as say him or his people anie diuine seruice, why shoulde the Prince suffer them to inioy those liuinges that were prouided for such as would?

Phi.

The fault was not theirs; they were restrained by the Popes interdict.

Theo.

Were the fault in them or the Pope, this is euident, the clergie might better lacke their liuinges, than the Realme diuine seruice.

Phi.

Was it not tyrannie to famish so many thowsand Monkes & Priests as were in this Land?* 1.929

Theo.

The king allowed them victum & vestitum parce ex rebus proprijs: meate, drink and raiment out of their liuings, though spare∣fully, in respect of their former and vsuall excesse, the rest hee kept in his hands, till they discharged that function, for which they were indowed with so liberal recompence.

P••i.

You can not blame them.

Theo.

Hee that perfourmeth a wicked interdict is to be blamed as well as he that commaundeth it.

Phi.

This was not wicked.

Theo.

There could be no wickeder.

The prohibition of publike praier, and restrainct of the worde and Sacra∣ments throughout the Realme is rather a dishonour to God, and an iniurie to the faith, than a seemely sentence for a christian Bishop. You can neither shew vs warrant for it in the Scriptures, nor example of it in the church of God for a thowsand yeares. They did excommunicate persons not places: they thrust not the innocent into the same extremitie with the nocent as you do: much lesse did they prohibite God to be serued in the church, his Sacraments to be mini∣stred, his word to bee preached: which the Turkes do not offer where they con∣quere:* 1.930 and Satan himselfe can wish no better increase of his kingdome than this horrible desolation of all those meanes that God hath appointed to saue the soules of men.

Phi.

Then let them be obedient to their Bishops.

Theo.

You can not say the people were disobedient, but onely the king: why then shoulde they be restrained from seruing God, and stand in danger of euerlasting de∣struction which transgressed not?

Phi.

Let them bee earnest with their king to yeelde.

Theo.

And what if hee will not, though they be neuer so earnest?

Phi.

Let them be ready to compell him,* 1.931 when they be required so to doe by their Bishops.

Theo.

You hit the nayle right on the head. Your generall debarring of diuine seruice throughout a Realme, was nothing else but an Antichristian Policie to set the people in a discontent, and to make them the readier to rebell against

their Princes, for whose sakes they be thus put in the high way to perish. And therefore the clergie men that did execute, and fulfill such an interdict were par∣takers of the same wickednesse with the pronouncers:* 1.932 and by no reason can it bee counted cruelty in the king to take from them their ecclesiasticall promoti∣ons; so long as they wickedly ceased from their ecclesiasticall functions, by this or any other like interdict.

This was all the persecution and rebellion that king Iohn might iustly bee charged with; and yet the Pope by the counsell of his cardinals and Bishops,* 1.933 sententially defined that he should be deposed from his throne, and an o∣ther placed by the Popes procurement that should bee worthier. And for the execution of this sentence, the Pope wrote to Philip the most mightie king of Fraunce, that in the remission of all his sinnes, hee should vndertake this matter, and after the expulsion of king Iohn, hee and his heires for euer should bee rightfull •• owners of the kingdom of England. He wrote likewise to al the Nobles, Captaines, & soldiers of diuerse Nations, that they should crossigne themselues to the deposing of the king of England, and following the king of Fraunce their leader in this viage, reuenge the iniurie of the vni∣uersall church. Thus your holy father set kinges togither by the eares for the remiss••on of their sinnes; and turned the warfare that was prouided against the Turke, ••o pursue his priuate quarels with christian Princes, & like the Prince of darkenesse giueth kingdoms, that bee none of his, to them and their heires foreuer.

And your blessed Bishops of Canterburie, London, and Elie, that first made sute at Rome to haue this impietie decreed against their Prince in their owne persons,* 1.934 to shew their christian and obedient dispositions, plied the king of France & other Potentates to hasten them with al hostilitie towards this land; and would needes be both the messengers and ringleaders in that action.

The next yeare Stephen of Canterburie, William of London and Elias of Elie,* 1.935 returned from the court of Rome, & gathering a Councel on the other side of the Sea, solemnly published the iudgement that was giuen against the king of England in the presence of the French king, and his Bishops, and his clergie,* 1.936 and communaltie. That done, they inioyned the king of France and all the rest on the behalfe of the Pope, for the remission of their sinnes, that they all ioyning togither shoulde inuade the Realme of England in ho∣stile manner, and thrust king Iohn from his throne, and substitute a wor∣thier by the Apostolike authoritie. It was not enough for them vnnatural∣ly to procure this pestilent inuasion against their prince: but they themselues must assist it with all their might, and be the chiefe doers in it; least ages after them should be ignorant how zealous they were for their * backes and bellies a∣gainst their lawful and soueraigne Magistrate.

Phi.

Being deposed, he was no Magistrate.

Theo.

When you *proue the Pope may depose Princes, then pronounce king Iohn no Magistrate: till you so doe, giue vs leaue to tell you, that this was a cursed presumption in

the Pope, and a more cursed rebellion in the Bishops.

Phi.

The Realme of France you see, tooke the offer, and thereby confessed the Pope might dispose Princes.

Theo.

A kingdome will make men doe much.* 1.937 The king of Fraunce was led thereto not with religion, but with am∣bition to get the crowne of England for Lodouike his sonne. Where you see the desire which Princes had to inlarge their dominions made them regard the Popes censures against their neighbours, which otherwise in themselues they did mightily despise, as appeareth by that which fel out not long after betweene Philip the Faire and Boniface the eight. Where the king of Fraunce resolute∣ly withstood the Pope with all his interdictions and depositions, and vsed his person in the end very coursely, as I before haue touched in place where vppon occasion. Princes to serue their turnes, and to be reuenged of their enimies, haue oftentimes backed and inforced the Popes iudiciall sentence against o∣thers: which corrupt affection, to man the Popes processe, when it made for their purpose, god hath punished in them, by making him their master, whom for lucre they serued as long as they gained.* 1.938 By the enuie and enmity of Princes one against an other, not by the lawes of God, or examples of Christs church, hath the Pope gotten the mastery of all Princes: and so long as they wil inuade ech other at his teasing, they shall neuer be free from his yoke. By their helpe he became of a Bishop vnder them to be a Prince with them, and by their dissenti∣ons, of a Prince with them, he is now Lord ouer them.

Take king Iohn for a paterne. Had not the French king in hatred of king Iohn,* 1.939 and hope of the crowne bin willing to heare of this match, and wagered his men and mony for that prize, the king of England had easily forced the Pope to some reasonable order. But nowe, seeing the whole Realme of Fraunce was in armes against him, and his owne Lande likely to bee diuided within it selfe, what maruell if he accepted rather any conditions at the Popes hands, thā he would suffer strangers that gaped after his kingdom to deuoure it?

Phi.

Hee did wisely to submit himselfe; hee had otherwise lost both rule & life.

Theo.

The Pope did as wickedly not to content himselfe with the kings submission, and restitution of all that was detained, but with a fine deuise to circumuent both parts,* 1.940 and to get the kingdom for himselfe and his successors, which was promised before to the French king and his heires. Such cunning your holy father hath to set others to beat the bushe, whiles hee doeth catch the birdes. The king of Fraunce was led in a string to muster his men, to rigge his shippes, to bestow aboue threescore thowsande poundes for the preparation of the warre, and was tolde hee shoulde haue for his labour, pardon of all his sinnes, forsooth and the crowne of England to him and to his for euer without faile: & when al was in readinesse, and they waited nothing now but the French kings comming to go with the armie: the Popes Legate stepped ouer before and shewed king Iohn what a power was leuied against him:* 1.941 and how many of his own Nobles had purposed to forsake him: and wanne him rather to holde his kingdome in fee farme of the Bishop of Rome for an easie rent, than to leaue

it a pray to the French king & his people, who would egerly spoile him of al. Up∣on which aduise the king consented to receiue the Archbishop and the rest of the exiles in peace; to restore that to them which hee had seased of their liuinges to his vse; to resigne his Crowne into the Popes handes, and to take it againe as his liege man & Secundary for a thowsand marke sterling by the yeare.* 1.942 This done the Legate sayled back, sent home the Bishops, discharged the armie, pro∣hibited the French king to proceede any farther, for so much as the king of England was newely become a tenant to the church of Rome. With this sleight the Pope caught the crowne of England: neither as I thinke was there euer any kingdome purchased with lesse charge and more speede thā this was by the Pope.

Philand.

If the King woulde resigne it, why shoulde not the Pope receiue it? And in my conceit, it was safer for the King to fall into the Popes handes to be rented, than into the French Kinges to be spoiled.

Theo.

That conceit, which you speake of, made the King of England content to be the Popes va∣sall.

Phi.

Better so,* 1.943 than worse. Better farmer to the Pope, than prisoner to the French: and in that offer to my iudgement the Pope shewed fauour to king Iohn.

Theo.

Such fauour a thiefe sheweth when he cutteth off both hands, and letteth the head stand.

Phi.

Compare you the Pope to a theefe?

Theo.

I did him no wr••ng, if I shoulde; except you thinke it lesse sinne to robbe a King of his Crowne, than an other man of his goods.

Phi.

The King was content, and so long it could be no robbery.

Theo.

So is any man by y^e high wayes side content rather to yeelde his purse,* 1.944 than loose his life, and yet that is fellonie.

Phi.

What right hath a theefe to an other mans purse?

Theo.

As much as the Pope had to the Crowne of England, when he forced King Iohn to yeeld it.

Phi.

Of that we will not dispute.

Theo.

You should but shame your selues, if you did.

Phi.

But since that surrender he hath better title to this Realme.

Theo.

No more than he had before King Iohn was borne, and that was none at all.

Phi.

The whole Realme of England with that of Ireland, with all their right and appertinentes were giuen to Innocentius and his Catholike succes∣sours: and the king bound his heires and after commers for euer to doe ho∣mage and fealtie to the Bishop of Rome.

Theo.

A faire paire of indentures, but somewhat too short to conuey a Kingdom. The King by an oth might make himselfe thrall during his life, as perhaps he did, but tie his Realme & crowne to that perpetuall bondage,* 1.945 by his single deede or chart hee could not. It is wel knowen the Kinges of this Realme can not doe lesse thinges than the selling or giuing of their crownes away without the consent of their nobles & commons.

Phi.

He had the consent of his Barons.

Theo.

That is not true. The deed saith, with cōmon counsel (or aduise) of our Barons, meaning such as were then by chaunce about him at Douer; but the most part of his Barons detested that act, and the Kinges that came after him neuer tooke them-selues bound in honour, law, nor conscience, to respect that priuate submission of their predecessour.

Phi.

May not a King subiect his Realme to whome hee will?

Theo.

I

thinke Lawyers will say no, as well as diuines: sure I am the Barons of this Realme thought no. For, when the Popes Legate spake to the French king, that his sonne might not disquiet king Iohn being now fendarie to the church of Rome: the king of Fraunce answered, The kingdom of England neither was,* 1.946 is, nor shall be S. Peters patrimonie. No king nor Prince can make a∣way his Realme without the assent of his Barons, that are bound to defende the Realme; and if the Pope goe on to vphold this errour, he giueth a most pernicious example to all kingdomes. Then all the Nobles (of England) (for to Fraunce were they fled, to accompanie their new king whome they had chosen in king Iohns place) with one voice cried they would stand to main∣taine this article euen with the losse of their liues, that a king or prince cānot at his pleasure giue or subiect his kingdome to any other, to make the No∣bles of his Realm * 1.947 seruants. So that his Barons neither consented he should, nor liked that he did subiect his realm to the Bishop of Rome; & so far were they from consenting, that in words they reuiled, & in deedes resisted both the king & the Pope: and vtterly despicing the curses and comminations that came from Rome, they brought in Lodouike the French kings sonne to take the crown of England from the Popes lease.

For when the Pope had sent first a generall and after a speciall excommuni∣cation to curse them by name that went about to take the kingdom from his va∣sal: They said euery one of them,* 1.948 that those buls were of no force, chiefly for that the ordering of temporall affaires did not appertaine to the pope, since the Lord gaue Peter & his successors no power but to dispose Church mat∣ters. Why thē, said they, doth the insatiable greedines of Romanes encroach vpon vs? What haue the Bishops of Rome to do with our wars? Behold (they wil be) the successours of Constantine, & not of Peter. And in somwhat homely termes, out vpon such shriueled ribalds, as are neither valiant nor liberal, & yet will rule the whole world by their excommunications, like ignoble vsu∣rers and Simonistes as they are. Euen so the Barons, Wo be to thee, the out∣cast of kings,* 1.949 the abomination of English princes, & cōfusion of English no∣bilitie. Alas England, England, til this time the Queene of Prouinces, but now in subiection and vnder the rule of base seruants and strangers: where as no∣thing is viler than to be in seruitude to a seruant. We reade that other kinges and princes haue striued euen vnto death for the libertie of their Landes, but thou Iohn (of mourneful memorie to al ages) hast deuised and contriued, that thy Realme being anciently free should become bound: and thy selfe of a most free king a seruile tributary, farmour & vassall. And of thee, O Pope, what shall we say, which shouldest shine to the world as the father of holy∣nes, the myrror of godlines,* 1.950 the tutor of righteousnes & keeper of truth, that thou consentest, commēdest & defendest such an one? But for this cause do∣est thou maintaine, the waster of English wealth, and extinguisher of Eng∣lish nobilitie depending on thee, that all may be plunged into the gulfe of Romish auarice.

This was the Barons complaint against king Iohn for intiteling the Pope to the crown of England:* 1.951 & though they added other things as occasions to the warres called the Barons warres I meane the lawes & liberties of king Ed∣ward, yet this was the ground of their grief, as you may collect by their words: & this respect made them refuse their king, and elect an other: and neuer leaue pursuing him till they brought him to his end.

And as for the kings that came after him (set his own sonne aside, who to make himselfe strong against Lodouike that possessed halfe this Realme, did homage to the church of Rome for his kingdome and tooke an oth for the pay∣ment of the thowsand markes granted by his father, thereby to continue the Popes censures against all those that affected his crown, or molested his Land) not one of them euer recognised this subiection, or represented this yearly pen∣sion to the Bishop of Rome; but kept him off at slaues end, from infringing the roialties of the crowne, & oppressing the liberties of the Lande more than any Realme christian of the West parts that we read. Insomuch that Polydore, no meane aduocate of your side, concludeth this subiection and pension touched personally king Iohn, and not his successours that should raigne after him.

By reason of king Iohns deliuering his Crowne into the Legates handes & receiuing it againe as his gift, It is a fame, saith Polydore, that king Iohn desi∣rous to eternise the memorie of this good turne,* 1.952 made himselfe beneficiarie to the Bishop of Rome with this prouiso, that the kings of England after that, should receiue the right of their crowne only from the Pope. But the kings that followed neuer obserued this forme, neither do the Chronicles of Eng∣land report any such submission. Wherfore it is certain that all those burdens were laid on the person of king Iohn that offended, and not on his successors.

Phi.

For heresie George king of Boemland was excommunicated, and thereupon by the forces of the king of Hungarie at length actually depriued.* 1.953

Theo.

For the mislike of your Romane vanities; your holy father plaied his part with George king of Boemland 1466. yeares after Christ, as he had done with other Princes before, deiecting him from his kingdome by presumptuous iudgement at Rome, and inticing the Princes that were neighbours, in hope of his kingdom, to inuade him with armes: & to ioine with the Bohemians that rebelled against him. Which offer Mathias king of Hungary first imbraced, a proud, vnthankfull, crafty, fraudulent, & ambitious man, as Frederike the 3. then Emperor of Rome complained of him in his embassage to Cazimire king of Pole: & might well appeare by his behauior to king George, who had him in hold, when he was chosen king of Hungarie, & might haue depriued him both of kingdom & life,* 1.954 & would not: but yet that inhumane & aspiring head of his did not preuaile. For George persisted & died king of Bohemia, notw^tstanding the Popes curses & Mathias forces, and after his death was Vladislaus Cazimires sonne chosen to the kingdome: and not onely helde it in spite of Mathias and the Popes grant to him & none else, but also succeeded Mathias in the kingdom of Hungarie.

Phi.

* 1.955Yet the Pope gaue the kingdom of Bohemia to Mathias.

Theo.

Hee might haue giuen him the kingdom of Constantinople or Persia with as much right as he did this: but howe that gift was esteemed euen by those that other∣wise depended on the church of Rome, the choice of a new and the next king did declare.

Phi.

* 1.956Also Iohn Albert had halfe his kingdom of Nauarre taken from him by Fer∣dinandus surnamed Catholicus, of Aragon; for that he gaue aid to Lewes the 12. being excommunicated by Iulius the second.

Theo.

The driftes of Princes, intertaining the Popes Buls, and admitting his keyes so farre as they make for their profit,* 1.957 do not proue the Popes power to be good, or their persons & states to be subiect to his censures by Gods Law. Philip the 2. king of Fraunce, was earnest to execute the Popes Bull against king Iohn: & spared no cost for the preparation of the warre. The cause was, he hoped to get the Crowne of England for his paines: but Lodouike his sonne, Philip the 4. & this Lewes whom you name, neither reuerenced nor regarded the Popes Buls which made against them: but shewed a manifest contempt of his censures, & with open Edicts seuered themselues & their people from his o∣bedience. So Ferdinand king of Spaine, when by violent & suddain inuasion he had gotten that part of Nauarre which bordered vpon him, was content for the keeping of it, to pretend the Popes Bul against Lewes the 12. but Charles the fift, the next king of Spaine could let his soldiers surprise Rome and desposse it in most cruel maner, abusing & illuding the Priests, Nonnes, Bishops & Cardi∣nals with all military despites & furies,* 1.958 & keepe the Pope fast lockt in prison till he paied 400000. pounds for his ransome, and consented to such other con∣ditions as they listed to prescribe.

Phi.

It was not Charles wil,* 1.959 that Rome should be sacked, or the Pope thus handled: it was the Germanes rage for want of pay.

Theo.

Charles coulde doe litle, if he could not dissemble. He neither rebuked his armie, nor inlarged the Pope, nor recompensed any part of the Pillage which his soldiers as well Spa∣niards as Germanes had committed in Rome, leauing nothing behinde them that was worthy the taking. And so long though his consent did not appeare, yet he made his aduantage of their act and secretly supported them by his protrac∣tion to take the whole spoile of the citie.

Phi.

The variance betweene the Pope & Charles was for temporal matters.

Theo.

So Lewes the 12. contended with Iulius the 2. for temporall dominion: & therefore the king of Nauarre ayding the French king in a ciuill quarell,* 1.960 was nothing so much to be blamed as Charles: but the trueth is, Ferdinand had cast his eyes on that kingdom confining so neere & lying so commodious (the anci∣ent desire of the kings of Spaine to be Lords of Nauarre being wel knowen, as Guicciardin confesseth) & for that cause when he could deuise no better title he took hold of the Popes Bul, colouring his iniurious ambitiō with a semblāce of Romish deuotion.

Phi.

It is holden at this day by the same right.

Theo.

This was no right: & other I knowe none the king of Spaine hath to it besides the

sword, by the which it was gotten, not yet 73. yeares since.

Phi.

Wil you dispute his title?

Theo.

I am not so curious in an other mans common wealth:* 1.961 let the Princes whom it concerneth trie their own titles: yet this is certaine, that neither the kings of England, France nor Spaine would suffer the Pope to dispose their kingdoms or any part of their dominions against their likings.

Phi.

For like causes, and namely for that he was vehemently suspected of the mur∣ther of the blessed Bishop S. Thomas of Canterbury, was Henrie the second driuen by Alexander the third to order and penance.* 1.962

Theo.

The strife betweene the king & Thomas Becket then Archbishop of Cāterburie,* 1.963 is reported before; & not now to be iterated. The lawes & liberties of the church, for the which he resisted the king, were nothing else but the rescuing of malefactors, if they were Clerkes, from due punishmēt; & exempting themselues from the kings subiection: which be quarels of their own nature wicked & irreligious: & therefore well you may call him BLESSED, because you be consorted in the same quarell with him a∣gainst God & your Prince: otherwise his pride was intolerable, his contention with the king detestable, his end miserable.

Phi.

Are you not ashamed to staine the glory of that worthy Martyr?

Theo.

First proue him an innocent,* 1.964 before you make him a Martyr.

Phi.

Who euer charged him with any crime?

Theo.

The very cause he stood in, was crime enough: besides his resisting the prince, which S. Paul pronounceth to be damnable.

Phi.

Do you make it damnable to defende the liberties of the church?

Theo.

To dreame, that the statelines of Popes,* 1.965 and licentiousnes of Priests was the perfection & happines of Christs church, and in that le••de conceit to neglect your othes, & resist the powers, which God hath e∣stablished is a triple damnation.

Phi.

That we do not.

Theo.

That he did, whom you cal a blessed bishop for his labor: & your selues do worse. For you be not cō∣tent to resist as he did by wilfull departing the Realm, you take weapon in hand to depose the Prince, & terme it iust & honorable warre to rebell against a law∣full Magistrate, which impiety he did not declare in act, though in heart per∣haps he did not abhor it.

But omit that he ment and come to that hee did,* 1.966 except you shew what one thing in those ancient lawes of the crowne (to which the Archbishop had expres∣ly sworne) was repugnant to the word of God, or office of a christian Prince: we conclude your blessed Bishop and Canterburie Saint, to be a shameful de∣fender of wickednesse, an open breaker of his oth, and a proude impugner of the sword which God hath authorized as the Scripture teacheth. And albeit wee like not the maner of his death, that priuate men shoulde vse the sword, which is deliuered vnto princes: yet the cause for which he withstood the king, was enor∣mous & impious: & dying in that, though his death were violent, he could be no martyr.

Phi.

You be loth to haue him a martyr, he was so far both frō your opi∣nion in this point, & religion otherwise: but yet he died in the defence of the Ca∣tholike church, & therefore we iustly count him blessed.

Theo.

Hee died not in de∣fence of the church: he stoode stifly for the Popes pride and gaine, and for the impunitie of malefactours among the Clergie, which thinges no way touch

the true lawes or liberties of Christes church. And therefore you must either proue that clergie men are not subiect to the Princes sword for heinous offen∣ces, which is most false: and that appeales from all places must bee made to the Bishop of Rome, which you shall neuer do: or else it is euident that Thomas Becket deserued rather the reward of a traytor,* 1.967 than the honour of a Martyr: these two being the principall causes for which he resisted the king, whiles hee liued, and was canonized after he was murdered.

Phi.

The church of Rome liked and allowed of his doings, though you doe not.

Theo.

She had good reason so to do. He gaue his life for the maintenance of her wealth and ease:* 1.968 and therefore if shee shoulde not esteeme him, shee were to blame: but this was no quarell for a christian Bishop to spend his blood in. The due correction of offenders by the temporal sworde, though they were clergie∣men: and diligent execution of iustice at home without running to Rome, when either part was disposed to vexe the other; were lawfull and wholesome pre∣ceptes of the kinges of this Realme: and so long as the resistance made by the Archbishop against the king was sinfull and seditious; & consequently the state he stood in, damnable; though the death he suffered were wrongfull, as not pro∣ceeding orderly from a magistrate, but furiously inflicted by some that were offended to see a Bishop brest a king in so vile a cause.

Phi.

The king himselfe in the end was driuen to order and penance.

Theo.

It was easie for you, when not only his neighbours, but his owne son rose in armes against him to winne his consent to any thing.* 1.969 By warres and inuasions of Realme vpon Realme, by defection of subiects from their soueraignes, & by the rebellion of children against their parentes, your cunning hath beene to driue Princes to order and keepe them in awe; but that doth not iustifie your vnnatu∣rall and vnchristian tumults to force them to your bent. We dispute not whe∣ther of late you haue so done, but whether of right you may so doe; wee see the meanes which Antichrist hath vsed to aduance his kingdom: but those we say be neither agreeable to the sacred scriptures, nor to the course of Christs church in former ages, they be late deuises & practises of Popes to exalt themselues aboue the highest: the iustice of God, preparing that plague for the sinnes of men, and dissention of Princes,* 1.970 which should haue ioyned togither to succour his truth, & safegard his church, by repressing the Popes pride, & driuing him to Christian integritie and modesty, and would not. Wherefore God gaue them ouer into his hands, that he should tread on their necks, & play with their crownes, as pleased himselfe: and they thinke it some great honor and preferment to kisse his feete, & hold his bridle, whiles he gets to horsebacke.

Phi.

A number of the like examples mo we might recite, of our Country & of the christian world,* 1.971 whereby not only the practise of the church in al ages may be seene; but also catholike men warranted that they be no traitors, nor hold assertions treasonable, false, or vndutiful; in answering or beleeuing that for heresie or such like notorious wic∣kednesse, a Prince (otherwise lawfull and annointed) may be excommunicated, deposed, forsaken or resisted by the warrant of holy churches iudgement and censure.

Theo.

From the conquest to King Henrie the eight there was no Prince of this Land deposed by the Pope but only King Iohn.* 1.972

Deposition was offered to Philip the fourth and Lewes the twelfth, Kinges of Fraunce: but they were so farre from taking it, that they withdrewe their whole Realme from the Popes obedience, and ouerreached your holy Father with his owne practise.

Philip by the general consent of his Nobles and Bishoppes not onely des∣pised the Popes sentence of depriuation against him, but requited him with the like: and * 1.973 to tame his pride, tooke him prisoner and made him end his life for very griefe of hart within sixe weekes after. Thus, sayth Platina, died Bonifa∣cius, hee that went about rather to strike a terrour into Emperours, kings, Princes and Nations, than to plant religion in them: and chalenged to giue and take kingdomes, and to aduaunce and debase men at his plasure. And so saith Gaguinus. This ende of his life had Bonifacius the contemner of all men, who not remembring the precepts * 1.974 of Christ, tooke vpon him to dis∣pose crownes and depriue kinges as hee sawe cause: whereas hee supplieth his roome on earth whose kingdō is not of this world, nor in earthly things but in heauenly: and gate the Popedome by deceit and vngodly meanes, and kept his predecessour in prison so long as he liued, from whom he wre∣sted that dignity. This example you would not alleadge, because you sawe the whole Realme of Fraunce stoode with Philip against Bonifacius, that the Pope had no right to depose Princes.

Lewes the twelft in a Councel at Tours had the resolution of al the French Bishops,* 1.975 that he might surcease from the Popes obedience, and contemne his vniust censures: and had not Maximilian somwhat slacked and Iulius in the meane time died, the Pope himselfe had bin depriued of his triple crowne in the Councell of Pisa, which was indicted by the Prelates of Germanie and Frāce at the instaunce and pursuite of Lodouike. The Bishops of Nations assem∣bled and decreed Iulius to be cited. Vpon the citation he refused to come, & knowing his own wickednes, sought to defend himself with armes. Alas, saith this writer being one of your owne friendes, whither is that auncient sanctitie of the Romane Bishoppes vanished? whither is that clearnesse of conscience gone, which neglecting the threats of Princes, built the church not with armes, but with the beames of their vertues? They refused not Councels, but rather frequenting them, cleared themselues from such things as they were charged with, in full assemblies of their mother the church. Behold, Iulius, who is taken to be the sheepheard, giueth no eare to the cō∣plaint of his sheepe, but killeth the weake ones, and hee that with his owne blood should purchase them peace, doeth what hee can with his curses to increase their trouble.* 1.976 And getting the Spaniardes and Venecians to vp∣holde him, sheddeth not teares with Ambrose, but displaieth his banners with Iulian, whose name he beareth against the church.

All the Germane Emperours, that were depriued by the Pope, you haue re∣cited:

Others perhaps were blasted with his excommunications,* 1.977 as Henrie the fifth: or not agnised by him for some dislike in their elections, as Philip of Sueuia, and at his first entraunce Albert of Austria: or busied with continuall warres, (in which the Pope had an oare,) as Conrade the thirde: but iudi∣cially deposed they were not.

Phi.

Philip of Sueuia & Otho the fourth, that was chosen against him, were both deposed by the Pope.* 1.978

Theo.

Otho the 4. the same which you cal Otho the fifth, was rashly aduaunced by the Pope against Philip, and as rashly displa∣ced after the death of Philip; the right of the Empire being al that while in Fri∣derike the seconde:* 1.979 whom the Princes of Almanie by the procurement of Henrie the sixt had chosen to bee their king lying in his cradle and sworne fealtie vnto him, and testieth so much vnder their handes and seales to the Emperour, his father.* 1.980 After whose death, when the Princes forgetting their act and oth began to treate of a new election, Philip Frederikes vncle fearing least a straunger should be thrust in, to the ruine of him-selfe and his nephewe, sought to keepe the Empire in his handes during his life, or till Frederik came to age.* 1.981 This Innocentius the 3. would not suffer: but vpbraiding him with the crueltie which his brother & father had shewed, & heaping many absurd & some false things against him, in his Epistle to Berthold Duke of Zaringia: stood on friuolous exceptions to hinder him, & obiected that he was excō∣municated by Celestinus his predecessor whiles he was gouernour in Tuscia: yea so great was his malice that he protesteth, he wold either take the empe¦rial diademe from Philip: or Philip should take the triple crown from him.

* 1.982In this rage the Pope caused first Berthold of Zaringia to be chosen king of the Germanes: and when he was too weake to incounter Philip, he gate Otho the fifth to bee set vp against him: whom Philip so long as he liued, draue to the wall: but being * 1.983 traiterously slaine in his chamber by one that would haue maried his daughter, he left Otho in full possession of the Empire, in which he continued no long time. For two yeares after the Pope fell into sorer hatred of him than euer he had of Philip: and after excommunication and depriuation, to spite him delt with the Princes of Germany to remember their choice made of Frederike the second when he was but yong, and their oth past vnder their seales to Henrie the sixt for the ratifieng of that election: and so by the helpe of the French king gate the Germanes to forsake Otho and sticke to Frederike,* 1.984 their right and naturall Prince: whome in the ende hee pursued with greater disdaine than any of the former, in so much that in three and twentie yeares after Frideriks death, the Empire was not setled in any lawfull successour.

The fruites of these stirres, as your owne friendes confesse, were im∣pietie and all kinde of iniquitie, in the Priestes and people; flatterie, per∣iurie and conspiracie in the Nobles;* 1.985 briberie, diuision and vnconstancie in the electours: onely the Pope vsed them as meanes to increase his wealth, augment his pride, and procure his ease. Then, sayeth Vrspergensis, be∣ganne euils to bee multiplied on the earth. For there sprang discordes, de∣ceites,

treacheries, treasons to the destroying and murdering of ech o∣ther.* 1.986 The spoyling, sacking, wasting and burning of Countries, sediti∣ons, warres, and rapines were openly allowed, in so much that euerie man now breaketh his oth, and giueth himselfe to these sinnefull mischiefs: yea the Priestes are as bad as the people.* 1.987 The Princes and Barons of the Land learning the Diuels Art, care for no othes, violate their faith, and con∣founde all right, sometimes forsaking Philip and clea••ing to Otho, somtimes contrarie. Vpon these tumultes it came to passe that * 1.988 there was skant anie Bishoprike, ecclesiasticall dignitie, or parish Church which was not litigi∣ous and the cause caried to Rome, but not with an emptie hande. Which made the Abbate then liuing and seeing the whole order of their doinges to crie out, Reioyce our mother Rome, because the windowes of earthly treasures are opened, that euen streames and heapes of mony in great abundaunce may flow vnto thee. Be glad for the wickednes of the sons of men, thou art well recompensed for their foule enormities. Take delight in discord thy best assistant, which is issued from the bottomlesse pit to increase thy gaine. Thou hast that which thou didst alwaies thirst for:* 1.989 sing this song, that by the malice of men, not any religion of thine, thou hast conquered the worlde. Neither deuotion nor good conscience draw men to thee, but manifold sins and strifes wherein mony beareth the sway.

And because the Pope would be sure the Emperour should not trouble,* 1.990 nor interrupt his excessiue gaine nor pride: he would not suffer Charles the fourth to be crowned, but on this condition, that he neither stay at Rome, nor in Ita∣lie; which Petrarke a man of that time pretily gibeth at.* 1.991 All power is impa∣cient to beare an equall: whereof if we had not ancient presidents enough, I feare our age hath giuen vs a late example, and that the Bishop of Rome hath forbidden the Emperour of Rome to abide at Rome: which as they say he hath done, and not only looketh but commandeth the prince should be content with the (bare) crowne and title of the Empire: and whome hee permitteth to be called Ruler: by no meanes will he suffer him to rule. And writing to the Emperour him-selfe:* 1.992 With a promise I knowe not how, and with an oth as it were with a strong wall or high hill, you are prohi∣bited to haue accesse to the citie of Rome.* 1.993 What pride is this, that the Ro∣mane prince, the author of publike libertie, should be depriued of al liberty, and that he should not be his owne, whose by right all thinges should be?

Mary the Pope & the prince were wel met: for the Pope was not as earnest to haue him gone, but he was as glad to go, & as willing neuer to returne. And therfore to take his farewel, he sould all the right & title that the Emperour had throughout Italy:* 1.994 & as Blondus saith,* 1.995 om••ia vbi{que} concessit ex quibus pecunia abra di potuit: passed away euery thing in euerie place, by the which he might get any mony. And as he did in Italy so did he in germany. For laboring to haue his son Vēcelaus chosen his successor in y^e Empire, whē the electors wold not agree to it, because y^e child had nothing in him fit for so great a calling, y^e Emperor of∣fered

euery of the Electours a hundred thowsande poundes to goe through with the choice,* 1.996 and so they did. And not hauing mony sufficient to defraie such an infinite summe, hee pawned the Landes and reuenues of the Empire into their handes,* 1.997 till they were paied, and so they remaine to this day. Hence the Romane Empire came to naught, neither was it euer after able to stand vpright, the Princes Electors keeping al in their handes, and swearing the Emperour,* 1.998 (when he is first chosen) that he shall not claime such things as they haue of the Empire in morgage.

Vencelaus,* 1.999 for whom his father paied 600000. pounds to haue him Em∣perour, proued so vnprofitable for the place, that the electours, when Charles was deade, of their authoritie* 1.1000 put him from the crowne, and set an other in his steede.

Some Princes of other countries you might repeate which I omit: no man doubteth but your holy Fathers pride and arrogance serued him to venter on meaner Princes, as well as on Emperours:* 1.1001 this is it that wee stand on; for a thowsande yeares there was no such thing vsed nor offered in the church of Christ: and since that time though Popes haue beene very forwarde to de∣pose Princes, you shall neuer shewe any Prince that acknowledged or o∣beyed that sentence; yea none of their people vnder them, nor of the bor∣derers about them, embraced those iudgementes, but such as had se∣crete quarelles against them, or sought to gaine some part of their king∣doms from them. The rest of their subiects & neighbours honoured them as Princes,* 1.1002 notwithstanding your furious lightning and thundering from Rome, as I haue shewed by many specialties from the time of Henrie the fourth to these our dayes: and an infinite number of your owne side haue by deedes and wordes boldly and sharpely reproued that insolent presumption. And there∣fore if you doe any good in this cause, you must goe higher; and bring vs elder examples that Bishops of Rome haue deposed Princes, than these violent and tragicall vproares of later Popes blinded with errour, and puffed with pride, who to compasse their vngodly desires haue ouerwhelmed the earth with fraude and force, with periurie and iniquity, with battaile & bloodshed, like furies of hel, not like teachers of truth, or Pastors of mens soules.* 1.1003 Could you proue tenne thowsand such attempts, it would relieue you litle: we may not leaue the mani∣fest commaundements of God, & constant obedience of Christes church for so many hundreths, and allow of those hatefull and heathenish deuises which the sonne of perdition hath lately broched.

Phi.

Will you yeeld to an elder example, if it be brought you?

Theo.

Reason we know the man, before we reuerence his act.

Phi.

It shalbe Gregorie the great & first of that name, whome you confesse to haue beene both learned and holy. He being many hundreth yeares before Gregorie the seuenth and our speciall Apostle, pra∣ctised the poinct we now stand on, and therefore likely to be beleeued of all reasonable men.

Theo.

Did Gregorie the great euer depose Princes?

Phi.

That he did.

Theo.

Name the Prince which he deposed, and winne the field.* 1.1004

Phi.

He deposed them before hand whatsoeuer they were that shoulde at any time after to the worlds end impugne his priuilege.

Theo.

Then he deposed princes not only be∣fore they were Crowned, but also before they were conceiued of their mothers.

Phi.

He adiudged they should be deposed, that so offended, though actually he deposed none.* 1.1005 In the forme of his priuilege graunted to S. Medardes Monaste∣rie thus he decreeth, Si quis Regum, Antistitum, Iudicum, vel quarumcunque personarum secularium huius Apostolicae authoritatis & nostrae praeceptionis decreta violauerit, cuiuscunque dignitatis vel sublimitatis sit, honore suo priuetur. If any King, Prelate, Iudge, or what other secular person soeuer shall transgresse this decree of our authoritie and commaundement, of what preeminence of highth soeuer he be, let him be depriued of his dignitie.

Theo.

Why stoppe you there, and goe no farther?

Phi.

I neede not; here is enough for my purpose.* 1.1006

Theo.

Yet reade on the rest, or if you will not, I will. Cum Iuda traditore Domini in inferno inferiori damnetur, and let him be damned with Iudas the traytour in the nethermost hell.

Phi.

There is nothing in this against vs.

Theo.

You might the better haue rehearsed it. But think you that Gregorie did damne men to hel,* 1.1007 or reserue you that power only to Christ?

Phi.

None can cast body and soule into hell fire but only God.

Theo.

Doth Gregorie take Gods office from him?

Phi.

No, but he meaneth to terrifie them with this kinde of curse, and praieth it may fal on their heades, if they infringe his godly actes.

Theo.

Then as Gregrie had no power to condemne Princes to hel though he threaten it to them, no more had he right to depose Princes, though he wish their ouerthrow,* 1.1008 if they frustrate his decrees. It is therefore AN IMPRECA∣TION, or curse which in the like case the meanest founder that is may lay on the greatest Prince that shall be borne without any iudiciall authoritie: It is no depriuation neither prosecuted, nor purposed by the Bishop of Rome.

Phi.

He saith, Let him be depriued of his dignitie.

Theo.

And know you not, that is the optatiue mode, by the which Gregorie wisheth and praieth it may come to passe: but neither pronounceth nor perfixeth any such iudgement?

Phi.

If it may come to passe, then Princes may be deposed.

Theo.

God hath ma∣ny wayes to displace the mightie from their seats, (to whom Gregorie praieth for vengeance,) though the Pope be not the doer.

Phi.

If this bee but a wish, euerie doner may doe as much.* 1.1009

Theo.

They be the verie woordes wherewith euerie doner doth strengthen his endowment: And euen in this place Gregorie is not alone. Thirtie Bishops of diuers cities subscribed to this graunt and curse in the selfe same wordes that Gre∣gorie did; Theodoricus the King, and Brunichildis the Queene vsed the same manner of subscription that the Bishop of Rome did, and the generall comprisement that presently followeth, sheweth the wordes that went before to be but curses. Omnium maledictionum anathemate,* 1.1010 let him be loden with al those heauie curses wherewith Infidels and heretiks from the beginning

of the world to this day haue beene hampered. So that your eye sight was not vp, when you tooke a prayer for a iudgement, a fourme of imprecation for a sentence of depriuation, a curse precedent for an execution that should be subse∣quent.

Phi.

* 1.1011 This was the right and power of S. Gregorie, and this hath been the fayth of christian men euer sith our Countrie was conuerted; and neuer subiect called in questi∣on, much lesse accused of treason for it, til this time; and lest of al, made or found treason by the old lawes in K. Edward the thirds raigne, as is pretended; howsoeuer by their new Lawes they may and do make what they list a crime capitall.

Theo.

Gregorie cursed them and prayed against them that should disorder, or alter his grant made at the Princes motion,* 1.1012 with the consent of al the pre∣lates in Italie, with the good will of the Romane Senate, and the fauourable iudgement of al the Bishops of France. This is not it, that is called in question. You beare armes against your naturall prince, and encourage her subiects that by Gods law should obey her,* 1.1013 to take her crowne from her, when the Pope wil∣leth them. This Gregorie neuer spake of; neither did England at any time frō the first receiuing of the faith to this day, euer acknowledge any such right or power in y^e Pope to depose princes. Much lesse then was this the faith of christi∣an men euer sith our Countrie was conuerted, as you brauely but falsely boast.

Phi.

In K. Iohns time, the Prince & realme were of this opinion, which wee are now.

Theo.

They were not. Some bishops & Monks, offended with y^e King for the losse of their goods, fled the realm: & tooke part with the Pope against y^e King, & the Barons for other causes loued not their King as appeared by their * 1.1014departure frō him in Normandie before this trouble began, & by their general rebellion against him when the Pope had not only released him, but also did vp∣hold him to the vttermost of his power. And though he had lost the hearts of his Nobilitie before, & now of his Clergie, by turning them out of al their liuings, yet was there no conspiring against him in those fiue yeres in which hee stoode excommunicate. And to him for defence of himself & his land, came * 1.1015 threeskore thousand able men of his own subiects wel furnished: besides an infinite num∣ber that were sent home againe for want of armour, and a * 1.1016 fleete greater than that which the King of Fraunce had against him.

Phi.

If his armie were so great and his people so sure, why would he not trie the field with the king of France?

Theo.

He saw the strife was but for the admit∣tance of a bishop: & better to slip his right in so small an iniurie than to put his owne state and welfare to the doubtful successe of battaile.

Phi.

The storie saith * 1.1017he was afraid lest he should bee left alone in the field, & bee forsaken of his own nation & nobles.

Theo.

So Pandulfus * 1.1018 told him, to afreight him & make him yeelde the sooner: but y^e Pope himself cōplaineth of the contrarie, y^t the Ba∣rons of Englād by a peruerse order did rise in armes against their king after hee was conuerted and had satisfied the Church,* 1.1019 who assisted him when hee did offend the Church.* 1.1020 And yet I am of opinion they would easily haue for∣saken him: not for respect of your Romish censures, but for their extreme dete∣station

of his odious and tyrannous gouernement,* 1.1021 which they shewed after his reconciliation to the See of Rome, more than they did before: and obeyed nei∣ther King nor Pope so long as he liued and enioyed the Crowne. This realme therfore in the time of King Iohn assisted their Prince against the Pope: and when the king had submitted himselfe, and rented his Crowne at the Popes handes, they resisted both Prince and Pope, and elected an other. Afore that and since that this realm neuer confessed or beleeued any right or power in the pope to depose Princes.

Phi.

They neuer made it treason to be of that beliefe til this miserable time, in which wee lyue.* 1.1022

Theo.

Richard the second very neere two hundreth yeres agoe made it death for any man to bring or sende within this realme any summons, sentence or excommunication, (from Rome) against any person: for the cause of making motion, assent or execution of the statute of proui∣sours: which barred the bishoppe of Rome from giuing, reseruing or disposing Bishopricks and benefices in this land. To impeach the Kings lawes, or to de∣feate him of his smaller inheritances, as aduousons & Patronages, by censures from Rome, was death in those dayes: what thinke you would they haue sayd to him that shoulde haue brought a bull to depriue the Prince of his crowne, or a warrant to rebel against him, & to take his life from him as you doe in our dayes?

And because you stand so much on the word treason, why should not the sta∣tute of Edward the thirde recensing Treasons extend directly to your doings? It is there numbred among treasons,* 1.1023 to compasse or imagine the death of the King, to leuy warre against him in his Realme, or to bee adhe∣rent to the Kinges enemies in his Realme, or to giue them ayde and comfort within the realme or else where.* 1.1024 If al wars waged against y^• prince within the Realme (that is by subiects) are treasonable: howe shoulde your warres for religion against your soueraigne be iust and honourable? If to ayde or comfort the kinges enemies within the realme, or else where, be trayterous conspiracie; how can you stirre vp forraine power to assault the realme, & per∣swade the people of this land with armes to displace the prince and not incurre that crime?

Phi.

Doe wee set straungers to inuade, or subiects to rebell?

Theo.

You be adherents and instruments to him that doth.

Phi.

You meane wee bee of the same faith with the Church of Rome: If that bee treason, then wee are traytours.

Theo.

We talke not of your fayth, but of your woorkes. Beleeue what you list, so you meddle not with ayding nor comforting inuasion nor rebellion.

Phi.

We doe not.

Theo.

You commend them and allowe them that wil doe either, yourselfe in this place defende their enterprise to be godly, iust and hono∣rable;* 1.1025 Your fellowes before you in their printed bookes openly did celebrate them as Martyrs that lost their liues in the North for bearing armes against the Queene. What greater comfort can you giue to rebels and enemies, than to

animate and encourage them with praises, promises, defences, and honors, both in this worlde and the next? It is more pernicious to fire the heart, than to warme the hand: to minister courage, than to giue drinke to them that shal fight against the Prince. In all actions the perswaders and enducers are equal with the doers and executours.* 1.1026 Why then should you not bee within the compasse of king Edward the thirdes statute, for ayding and comforting the Queenes e∣nemies within the realme or elsewhere?

Phi.

You must vnderstand that wee neuer will any man to take armes, but for the catholique fayth,* 1.1027 and at the commaundement of the supreme magistrate against one that was, but is no Prince, as being iustly deposed.

Theo.

And you must vnderstand that the statute of Edward the third doeth neither allowe the Pope to depose the Prince, nor licence the subiect to beare armes for reli∣gion against his soueraigne: and therefore your warres for religion be trayte∣rous insurrections against the Prince by the Lawes of Edward the third, not∣withstanding your newe found glozes that you first depose them, and after re∣sist them, and pursue them with armes by the warrant of holy Churches iudgement and censure.

Phi.

Edward the third neuer ment, that to obey the Pope aboue the prince should bee treason.* 1.1028

Theo.

It is not for you now to appoint his meaning. His woordes are, that to giue ayde or comfort to the Kings enemies and such as leuied warres against him in his realme, (were it the Pope, the French King, or whom ye will,) shoulde bee treason. Hee had before his eyes the example of King Iohn, vpon whome the Pope set the King of France with all his power for not obeying his censures from Rome: he knew hee could not bee defeated of his Crowne without warre: and so long as his owne subiects were trustie to him hee feared not the French, nor any other that should inuade him. To make himselfe therefore assured of his owne people against all men, Spanish, Scot∣tish, French,* 1.1029 Romish or any by whome the deede might bee doone, and yet to decline the enuie of naming the Pope: hee with his whole realme by their pub∣lique lawe without exception of Person, or cause, made it treason to giue ayde or comfort within the realme, or else where to any (whatsoeuer) that should warre vpon the king: perceiuing the generall would include the Pope or any other that hee shoulde incite against the King, as well as if they were distinct∣ly named.

Phi.

You suppose the Prince and the people did secretly conspire against the Pope:* 1.1030 where as in those dayes they did honour him as the Soueraigne father and Pastour of their soules.

Theo.

Howsoeuer they embraced the reli∣gion which hee professed, it is euident the King and the whole realme in open Parliament made a generall consociation to repell prouisions and impetrati∣ons of ecclesiasticall dignities and offices from Rome: and bound them-selues eche to other with all their might in common to withstande citations, suspenci∣ons, excommunications and censures comming from that Consistorie for mat∣ters decided in the Kings Courts, or pertinent to the Lawes and royall liber∣ties

of this Realme: and the commons did not sticke in parliament likewise to promise King Richarde the second to stand with him in all cases attemp∣ted by the Bishop of Rome against him, his Crowne and his Regalitie in all points to liue and die.

The consociation against the procurers, bringers, and executours of prohi∣bited processe from Rome was this:* 1.1031 The King, the Prelates, Dukes, Earles, Barons, Nobles and other Commons, Clerks, and Lay people, be bound by this present ordinance to aide, comfort, and counsel the one and the other, as often as shall neede: and by all the best meanes that may bee made of word and of deede to impeach such offendours, and to resist their enter∣prises, and without suffering them to inhabite, abide or passe by their Seig∣nories, possessions, landes, iurisdictions or places: and be bound to keep & defend the one and the other from al damage, villanie, and reproofe, as they should do their owne persons and for their deed and businesse: and by such manner and as farreforth as such prosecutions or processe were made or attempted against them in especiall, generall, or in common.

The complainct and offer of the Commons to king Richard was this: Of late diuers processes be made by our holy father the Bishop of Rome,* 1.1032 and censures of excommunication vpon certaine Bishops of England because they haue made execution of the kings commandements (notwithstanding processe from the Court of Rome for the contrarie) to the open disherison of the Crowne and destruction of our Soueraigne Lord the King his Law & all his Realme: so as the Crowne of England, which hath beene so free at al times that it hath beene in subiection to no realme,* 1.1033 but immediately sub∣iect to God and to none other in all things touching the regalitie of the same Crowne, should be submitted to the Bishop of Rome and the Lawes and statutes of the realme by him defeated and destroied at his will, in per∣petual destruction of the king our soueraigne Lord his Crown and regali∣tie, and of al his realme, which God defend: Wherefore they, & al the liege commons of the same realme will be with our sayd Soueraigne Lorde the King and his saide Crown and his regalitie in the cases aforesaide, and in all other cases attempted against him, his crowne, and his regalitie in al points to liue and to die. This was the auncient loue and faith of the Commons of this Land toward their Princes, against the Bishop of Rome euen by name: and this if you were true English or good Christian men, you would rather exhort the people vnto, than as you doe, wish them to take weapon in hand to pull the Prince from her throne, because the Bishop of Rome hath sent out his calues to disclaime her.

Phi.

Euer sith the said S. Gregories time,* 1.1034 or thereabout, all Kings in Chri∣stendome, speciállie those of Spaine, Fraunce, Pole and England take an oth vppon the holy Euangelistes at their Coronation, to keepe and defend the Catholike faith: and ours of England expresly, to maintaine also the priuileges and liberties of the Church and Clergie, giuen by King Edward the confessour and other faithful Kings

their auncestors.

Theo.

* 1.1035That Kinges should take an othe to defende the Catholique fayth & assist the Church of Christ wee doe not repine: onely your collection is foolish, if you thinke, that by Catholique fayth is by and by ment your late Romish fayth: or that the church can haue no priuileges nor liberties, except the Pope may deale and distribute kingdomes to his liking. The Princes othe in the Lawes of King Edwarde the confessour,* 1.1036 was to keepe, nourish, main∣taine and gouerne the holy Church of his kingdome with all integritie and libertie according to the constitutions of his Fathers and prede∣cessours. But in our dayes you will not suffer the Prince to gouerne the Church of her kingdome: and the Church libertie which you seeke for, is a wicked impunitie for sinne, and a plaine contempt of all Christian au∣thoritie.

Phi.

S. Thomas of Canterburie putteth his Soueraigne Henry the seconde in memorie thereof both often in speach and expressely in an epistle written to him in these woordes:* 1.1037 Memores sitis confessionis q••am fecistis & posuistis super altare a∣pud Westmonasterium,* 1.1038 de seruanda Ecclesiae libertate, quando consecrati fuistis & vncti in regema predecessore nostro Theobaldo. Keepe in memorie the confessi∣on which you made and layd vpon the altar at Westminster, touching the keeping of holy churches liberties, when you were consecrated & annoin∣ted king by my predecessour Theobald.

Theoph.

Your Canterburie Saint was very carefull to put the King in mynd of Church-mens libertie:* 1.1039 but hee was neuer so religious as to remember what was Church-mens duetie to God and the magistrate. Hee could call on others to keepe touche, but him-selfe procured a dispensation, that his othe shoulde not tye him, though it were neuer so lawfull and honest. And sure∣ly this was a seemely sight, for a subiect that had violated his owne fayth and trueth to importune his Soueraigne to obserue couenaunts: but such is your store, for want of better, you must bring periures to talke of pro∣mises.

Phi.

The Patriarkes of Constantinople tooke an instrument of such as were to be crowned Emperours (specially in the times of heresie) wherein they made the like promise and profession,* 1.1040 to keepe and defend the fayth and decrees of holy Councels. So did the Patriarch Euphemius, in the coronation of Athanasius; Nicepho∣rus, in the inuesting of Michael: and others in the creation of other Emperours of the East.* 1.1041 And Zonaras writeth that the Patriarche of Constantinople plain∣ly tolde Isaac Commenus the Emperour: that as by his handes hee receiued the Empire: so if hee gouerned not well, by him it shoulde bee taken from him a∣gaine.

Theo.

* 1.1042 From Popes you come to Patriarches, from Rome to Constan∣tinople, and there in steede of deposing them after their coronation, you shew what was exacted at their handes before they were crowned: and that not e∣uer, nor by any superiour calling, but the Bishop of that citie offering once or

twise rather to loose his life, than to crowne one that he feared would innouate the fayth or afflict the Church.

Euphemius was the first that gaue this onset, and the first that repented it. When Ariadna the Empresse that buried her husbande aliue, being fallen into a traunce, would needes exalt Anastasius a man of no great reckoning before, and bestowe both the scepter and her selfe vppon him, Euphemius the Patriarch, whether it were that hee claymed a consent in that election as wel as others, or suspected Anastasius inclination, and so thought it ea∣sier to exact a confession of his fayth before than after his coronation: requi∣red him vnder his handewriting to promise that hee woulde alter no poynt of Religion established in the Church. Which Anastasius then yeelded to doe:* 1.1043 but as soone as hee was crowned, the first thing almost that hee did, he banished Euphemius for his bolde aduenture. What you would conclude out of this fact for the deposition of Princes, I knowe not: well I wotte the Prince depriued the Patriarche, and not the Patriarch the Prince, though hee fell from the faith which he professed, and promised at his coronati∣on to continue.

Phi.

Hee did, that hee did, by violence.

Theo.

I commend not his do∣ings, onely I woulde haue you marke that though he ioyned tyrannie with he∣resie, neither Patriarch nor Pope did depose him.* 1.1044

Philand.

The Pope did excommunicate him.

Theo.

So you sayd before, but you prooued it by no sufficient testimonie: yet graunt hee were, I thence inferre, the teachers & peo∣ple of the Primatiue Church endured and obeyed an hereticall and excom∣municate person as their lawfull Emperour: which cleane euerteth all your platfourme.

Phi.

Nicephorus required the like writing of Michael.* 1.1045

Theo.

Michael was chosen to the Empire, Stauracius yet liuing and not allowing their act: and when hee came the next day to the Church to bee Crowned,* 1.1046 the Patri∣arch required his writing, that hee woulde neither spill Christian blood, nor chaunge the fayth of the Church, which Michael willingly graunted.

Philand.

The Patriarch then prescribed conditions to the Prince.

Theo.

When the Empire went by election, the people might prescribe needefull and honest conditions, to which their princes should subscribe before they were crowned.

Phi.

But I talke of the Patriarch.

Theo.

The Patriarch did it not often. There were fourtie Christian Emperours from Constantine to Michael, and this writing neuer required but of two: and those not suc∣ceeding, but elected. Whose coronation the people might tie to those Christian and godly conditions. And though the Church were the meetest place, and the Patriarch the fittest person in matters of fayth,* 1.1047 to take the Princes sub∣scription, yet was it doone in the presence of the whole people, and not with∣out their consents, and then onely, when some feare of alteration vrged them vnto it. The Patriarch of himselfe had neither right, nor power to draw the Prince to such couenants as hee would limit; and therefore it was necessary the

people should ioyne their authoritie with his in that action.

Philand.

The Patriarch would not crowne him, vnlesse he would subscribe.

Theo.

If he would not, an other might. The ceremonie of setting the Crowne on the Princes head,* 1.1048 is a seruice due to him that is chosen, not any superioritie in him that doth it; and if it bee refused by him, that of order is bound to doe it, any Christian Bishoppe may perfite it, and the other bee punished for his recu∣sance.

Phi.

* 1.1049The Patriarch by your leaue had more interest to the crowning of the Emperour than you mention. For Polyeuctus the Patriarch would not suf∣fer Ioannes Zimisces so much as * 1.1050 to enter the Church, till he had banished the murderers of the former Emperour, and thrust the Empresse out of the Court, and torne the booke which the Bishoppes were in trouble for: and giuen all his goods to the poore.

Theo.

The Empire of Constantinople was nowe 970. yeres after Christ caried along neither by lawfull succession nor election, but become a very pray for him that woulde murder his master, and defile his mi∣stresse: without all respect of dutie or honestie. Zimisces not content secretly to keepe Nicephorus wife, with her helpe most villanously flew the Emperour in his bed, * 1.1051 commaunding his men, besides the wounds they gaue him in the head and elsewhere, with the hilts of their swordes to dash out his teeth, & breake his iaw-bones. Upon this horrible and diuelish slaughter, when he came to the Church intending to haue the crowne, the Patriarch * 1.1052 would not suffer him being polluted with blood to come within the Church. Where he confessing that others did it by instigation of the Empresse, the Patriarch required, that she might bee foorthwith banished, and they pursued, and the booke torne that entangled the Bishoppes, and that he would thinke on some punishment for himselfe. Zimisces yeelded to all that the Patriarch asked: and for himselfe promised to giue the goods which he had gotten whiles hee was a priuate man, to the poore.

How this serueth your turne, I see not. The Patriarch kept him, not from the Crowne, but from the Church; and hee that was kept off, was no Prince either by discent, or by choice: but one that aspired to the crowne by killing the king, and abusing the Queene in most haynous manner.* 1.1053 In which case, if the Patriarch had offered his life, rather than suffered such an one to approch to the Lords table, he had done but his dutie.

Phi.

Would you now haue bishops rebell?

Theo.

You thinke so much on it, you can not choose but talke of it, I said no such thing: the common wealth had to doe with the crowne, and not the Bishoppe: that if they gaue, hee might not denie: but as for diuine seruice and Sacraments, the Bishoppe might well d••me them to that infamous adulterer and murderer.

Phi.

You may perceiue by that which the Patriarch of Constantinople sayd to Isaac Commenus,* 1.1054 what sway the Bishop of that citie bare in crowning the Emperour. He told the Prince plainely that as by his handes hee receiued the Empire, so if he gouerned not well, by him it should be taken from him againe.

Theo.

We may perceiue by that which you bring, both the pride of the Pa∣triarch, and the falshood of your dealing. This Bishoppe was a ringleader in the rebellion wherein Michaell Stratiotes the former Emperour was displa∣ced,* 1.1055 and Isaac Commenus exalted in his steade: and when the newe Prince happened to denie the prowde and seditious Patriarch a request which hee made, hee brast out in great rage and tolde him, that as hee had holpen him (by his wicked conspiracie) to the Crowne, so would he (by like meanes) helpe him from it.* 1.1056 An example as fit for your doinges as you coulde possibly light on, that a Priest should tel his Prince, he would thrust him out of his seate by the head and shoulders.

Philand.

If hee gouerned not well, hee woulde take the Crowne from him.

Theo.

If hee gouerned not well, is your addition and misconstruction of your Author:* 1.1057 the storie lieth as I report it. The woordes of Zonaras are: Neque verò Patriarcha superbia illi cedebat, sed imperare illi volebat, a•• si quando non im∣petrasset quae petierat, egrè ferebat, increpabat, minabatur denique, quemadmodum imperium illi contulisset ita se idem illi orepturum. The Patriarch yeelded not a iote in pride to the prince, and if at any time hee missed of the requestes which hee made, hee disdayned, and cast it in the princes teeth & threat∣ned, that as hee had promoted him to the kingdome, so hee woulde take it from him. Nowe in what sort hee with others conspired for Isaac Com∣menus against Michael, Zonaras sheweth in this page before. And in trueth hee was ledde with the same spirite that Hildebrande was,* 1.1058 liuing at the same time with him and sitting at Constantinople, whiles the other raigned in Rome: and had the very same euent of his pride which Hildebrande had; the Greeke Prince being not able to beare the Patriarches insolencie, and therefore banishing him, where for spite and anger hee shortly af∣ter dyed.

Philand.

Likewise when kinges,* 1.1059 that before were infidels, doe enter by Bap∣tisme into the Church, they submitte their scepters to Christ, and consequently make them-selues subiect and punishable if they reuolt from their fayth and pro∣mis••.

Theoph.

When Kinges by Baptisme put on Christ they submitte their scepters and soules to the woorde and will of Christ,* 1.1060 but what this auay∣leth the Pope I see not: except you assume that your Holy Father is Christ, and so the subiection professed by Kinges vnto Christ must be yeel∣ded to your Romish Antichrist; which were very farre fet, and skant worth the cariage.

Phi.

If they reuolt from their fayth,* 1.1061 they bee punishable by reason of their for∣mer subiection vnto Christ.

Theo.

Yea verily: and that not onely in this worlde if it please him, but in the next also with euerlasting paines if they repent not.

Philand.

If they bee punishable in this world, then may they be depriued.

Theo.

Doth Christ vse no punishm••••t but depriuation? or euer read you that in this life Christ sententially deposed any Prince, though hee

might haue punished many?

Phi.

I meane they may bee depriued by men, if they reuolt from their promise made to Christ.

Theoph.

Your owne mea∣nings bee your best argumentes: otherwise I see no strength in this reason. Princes are punishable, if they breake their fayth giuen to Christ: Ergo by men: and if by any man, ergo by the Pope. This is leaping logike, of all that e∣uer I heard.

Philand.

* 1.1062They submitted them-selues in Baptisme to bee punished by depriuation, if they kept not fayth and trueth with Christ.

Theo.

If you shoulde not eate, till you prooue that assertion, you shoulde fast a lent not of dayes but of yeeres. It is a wicked error to say, that any priuate man in Baptisme must or doeth submitte him-selfe to the violent and corporall cor∣rection of his flesh: or to the temporall losses of land or life: which you would fasten on Christian Princes by vertue of their Baptisme.

Philand.

Vppon these conditions and none other, Kinges bee receiued of the Bishoppe that in Gods behalfe annoynteth them:* 1.1063 which othe and promise being not ob∣serued, they breake with GOD and their people; and their people may and by order of Christ his supreme minister their chiefe Pastor in earth, must needes breake with them: heresie and infidelitie in the Prince tending directly to the perdition of the common-wealth and the soules of their subiectes, and notoriously to the annoy∣ance of the Church and true religion, for the defence of which kinges by GOD are giuen.

Theoph.

Againe you leape from the baptising to the crowning of Prin∣ces, and because at their admission into the Church they promised to re∣nounce the Dyuell and his woorkes, but not their swoordes and scepters which are of GOD: you range to their coronations and tell vs in great state that the Bishoppes which annoynted them in Gods behalfe did not receiue them to bee kinges but on these conditions; as though it were in the handes of Bishops to receiue and reiect Kinges,* 1.1064 and to prescribe them conditions of taking and leauing the Crowne. Faine you woulde encroche vpon Kinges by the Bishoppes act and oyle, that in the ende you might possesse the Pope with a full interest to dispose their Crownes at his pleasure: but such as bee wise will looke to your fingers and keepe you short of that de∣sire.

The solemne rites of coronations haue their ende and vtilitie, but no di∣rect force nor necessitie.* 1.1065 They bee good admonishmentes to put Princes in mynde of their duetie: but no increasements of their dignitie. For they be Gods annointed: not in respect of the materiall oyle which the Bishoppe vseth, but in consideration of their power, which is ordayned: of the sword, which is authorized: of their Persons, which are elected by GOD and endu∣ed with the giftes of his spirite for the better guyding of his people: If oyle be added, it is but a ceremonie representing that to their eyes, which all the godly beleeue with their heartes: If oyle bee wanting, they bee perfect Magistrates notwithstanding, and Gods annointed as well as if they were

inoyled. And so for the person of the Bishoppe, that doeth annoynt them. It is fittest, it be done by the highest: but yet if they can not or will not, any Bishoppe may perfourme it.

Authoritie to condition with Princes at the tyme of their coronation,* 1.1066 the Bishoppe hath none: hee is faythfully to declare what GOD requireth at the handes of Princes: not in religion onely, but in rewarding vertue, re∣uenging sinne, relieuing the poore and innocent, repressing the violent, pro∣curing peace and doing iustice throughout their Realmes: and that if they faile in any of these, God will not faile seuerely to visite the breach of his Lawe, and contempt of their callings: but yet hee hath no commission to de∣nounce them depriued,* 1.1067 if they misse in some or all of these dueties: much lesse to drawe Indentures betweene God and Princes conteyning the forfeiture of their crownes, with a clause for the Pope and no man else to reenter, if they keepe not couenants.

Phi.

You graunt they bee bounde to God: to defend the Church and true Re∣ligion.

Theo.

Euen so bee they bound to doe those other thinges which I be∣fore rehearsed. The couenaunt which God made with the Prince of his peo∣ple, was to feare the Lorde his God and to keepe (not some but) all the wordes of his Law.* 1.1068 The othe which the Kinges of Englande take, hath ma∣ny thinges besides the defence of the fayth and the Church.* 1.1069 The King shall feare God and loue him aboue all things, and keepe gods precepts through his whole kingdome. Hee shall aduance good Lawes and approoued cu∣stomes, and banish all euill Lawes from his kingdome. Hee shal doe right iudgement in his realme, and maintaine iustice by the counsell of his No∣bles: with many other points there specified: All these thinges the King in his owne person shall sweare beholding and touching the holy Gospel, in the presence of the people, the Priestes and the Clergie, before hee bee crowned by the Archbishoppes and Bishoppes of his Realme.* 1.1070 Shal a king bee deposed, if hee reuolt as you call it from his promise and othe in any of these points?

Phi.

Heresie and infidelitie tend directly to the perdition of the common-wealth and the soules of their subiects, and notoriously to the annoyance of the Church & true Religion.

Theoph.

Wee compare not vices,* 1.1071 but discusse the vitiousnes of your con∣clusion. Kinges you say couenant with GOD at their annointing. That othe and promise if they breake with God, the people (you adde) may, and by order of Christs supreme minister, their chiefe Pastor in earth, must needes breake with them. If by BREAKING you ment not obeying them in those particular cases which tend to the defacing of Gods trueth, your illation were not much amisse: for in all things wee must obey God rather than man: but by BREAKING you vnder∣stand an vtter refusing of obedience, in all other cases, and a violent re∣moouing them from their crownes: which we say is not lawfull for Pastor nor people to attēpt against princes though they answere not their duties to God in

euerie point.* 1.1072 They couenant at the same time, and with the same oth the keeping and obseruing of the whole lawe of God: and yet was there neuer any man so brainsicke as to defend that Princes for euerie neglect and offence against the Law, should be deposed.

Phi.

Heresie is one of the greatest breaches of Gods Law.

Theo.

To hold the truth of God in manifest and knowen vnrighteousnes, without repentance, is a greater impietie than ignorantly to be deceiued in some points of religion: but we stand not on the degrees of sinnes, which God will reuenge from the greatest to the smallest as much as on the person which may do it, and the war∣rant whereby it must be done. We deny that Princes haue any superiour and ordinarie Iudge to heare and determine the right of their Crownes. Wee deny that God hath licenced any man to depose them, and pronounce them no Princes. The sonne cannot desherit his father, nor the seruant countermaund his master by the lawes of God and nature;* 1.1073 be the father and master neuer so wicked. Princes haue farre greater honour and power ouer subiects than any man can haue ouer sonnes and seruantes. They haue power ouer goods, lands, bodies and liues: which no priuat man may chalenge. They be fathers of our Countries, to the which we be nearer bound by the very con∣fession of Ethnikes, than to the fathers of our flesh. Howe then by Gods law should subiects depose their Princes to whom in most euident woords they must bee subiect for conscience sake though they bee tyrauntes and Infidels?* 1.1074 And if the subiects them-selues haue no such power, what haue strangers to meddle or make with their Crownes?

Phi.

Doe you count the Pope a straunger to Christian Princes?

Theo.

Would God he were not woorse; euen a mortall and cruell enimie to al that bee Godlie. He was a subiect vnder them eight hundreth yeares and vpwarde: he after by sedition and vsurpation grewe to bee a s••ate amongest them: a Superiour ouer them in causes concerning their Crownes and states you shall neuer prooue him to bee. For a thousand yeares he durst offer no such thing:* 1.1075 these last fiue hundreth hee often assayed it, and was as often re∣pelled from it: by factions, conspiracies, excommunications and rebellions hee molested and grieued some of them, as I haue shewed: but from the as∣cention of our Lorde and Sauiour to this present day neuer Prince Christian did yeeld and acknowledge any such power in the Pope: and those that see∣med in their neighbours harmes somewhat to regard his doings for an ad∣uauntage: when the case concerned them-selues most boldlie reiected his iudgements.

Phi.

* 1.1076By the fall of the King from the faith, the danger is so euident, and ineuitable, that GOD had not sufficientlie prouided for our saluation and the preseruation of his Church and holie Lawes, if there were no way to depriue or restraine Apostata Princes.

Theo.

You make vs many worthy reasons for the depriuation of Princes, but of all others this is the cheifest. If there were no way to depriue Princes,

God hath not, say you, sufficiently prouided for our saluation and the preseruation of his Church.* 1.1077 Euen so one of your owne fellowes saide before you of the verie same poin••e: Non vider••tur Dominus discretus fuisse (vt cum reuerentia ••ius loquar) &c. The Lorde (by his leaue) should haue seemed scant discreete, except hee had left one such Vicar behind him as might doe all things (to witte) depose Emperours and all other Princes. Unlesse your rebellious humours may take place, you stick not to charge the sonne of God with lack of discretion & negligence: but looke better about you, ye blasphemous mouths, & you shall see that the Church of God is purest when she is tried in the fornace, cleanest when she is vanned, whitest when she is scoured, and safest when she is iudged in the world that she be not condemned with the world. The Church of Christ hath alwaies prospered in miserie, and decaied in prosperitie: Israel increased whiles they were oppressed by Pharaoh: and when they came to be fed with Manna vnder Moses, they were consumed. The bloud of the Mar∣tyrs is the very nourcerie of the Church, and the first poison of Religion was the wealth and pride of Bishops.* 1.1078 The grace of God is made perfect through weakenesse:* 1.1079 and when our outward man perisheth, our inward is daily renewed.

Phi.

Why rage you thus?* 1.1080 What haue we said?

Theo.

That which neuer learned or Christian man sayde before: you say your saluation is vnsufficient if you may not rebell against Princes, when they oppresse you.

Phi.

If there were no way to depriue or restraine Apostata Princes.

Theo.

Then was not the Primatiue Church sufficiently prouided for by the sonne of God, for they lacked compotent forces as your selfe did confesse to restraine those heretiks, Apostataes and tyrants that afflicted them. Then were the Apostles vnfurni∣shed for their saluation, for they had nothing besides hope to beare the brunt of those continuall and bloudie persecutions which they suffered. Then is God carelesse of his Saincts, (for so much your religious wordes import) since they shall haue none other refuge in all assaults but * 1.1081 faith and patience. Wo worth your worldly mindes, that cannot so much as say with the Apostle, what∣soeuer you thinke,* 1.1082 I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproches, in neces••ities, in persecutions, in anguish for Christ: for when I am weake, then am I strong.

Phi

We haue giuen better experience thereof than you: we haue these 27. yeres endured al sorts of afflictions & calamities that might befal men in exile; and therefore neuer charge vs to be worldly minded: our long and hard banish∣ment doth clearely quite vs from that slaunder.

Theo.

You haue beene long absent, but much against your wils: had any of your practises well suc∣ceeded, you had many yeres since returned with fier and sword,* 1.1083 but God of his mercie toward this realm, hath wearied their heads and filled their hands that should be your leaders: and now waxing sharp through impatience, & much dis∣pleased to see your selues so often disappointed, you not onely by your booke blowe the trump to rebellion; but shew the very ground and persuasion of your

hearts to be this: that except you may depriue the Prince with dint of swoord, God hath not sufficiently prouided for your saluation; as though life to come woulde doe you litle good, except in the meane time you might abounde and not feele want: liue in honour, and not thus wander: raigne ouer Princes, and not obey them, or endure them.

Phi.

* 1.1084Wee see howè the whole worlde did runne from Christ after Iulian, to plaine Paganisme: after Valens to Arianisme: after Edward the sixt with vs, into Zwing∣lianisme: and would doe into Turcisme, if any powerable Prince will lead his subiects that way.

If our fayth or perdition shoulde on this sort passe by the pleasure of euery secular Prince, and no remedie for it in the state of the newe Testament, but men must holde and obey him to what infidelitie so euer he fall: then wee were in worse case than heathens, and all other humane common wealthes; which both before Christ and after, haue had meanes to deliuer them-selues from such tyrants as were in∣tolerable, and euidently pernicious to humane societie, and the good of the people: for whose peace and preseruation, they were created by man, or ordayned by God.

Theo.

You finde that multitudes ranne from Christ, to Paganisme after Iulian: to Arianisme after Valens: but doe you finde that the godly did re∣bell against them, because a number ranne after them? What presumption is this in you to controle the wisedome and goodnes of God, sifting his Church by the rage and furie of wicked Princes,* 1.1085 and crowning those that bee his as patient in triall, and constant in trueth? Were you throughly perswaded that the heartes of Kinges are in the handes of GOD, and that the haires of our heades are numbred, so that no persecution can apprehend his, which hee disposeth not toward them for experience of their fayth, or recompence of their sinnes: you woulde as well honour the iustice of God in erecting tyrants that our vnrighteousnes may bee iudged and punished in this worlde: as em∣brace his mercie in giuing rest to his Church by the fauour of good and vertu∣ous Princes. And therefore I appeale to the consciences of all good men, whether this reason of yours (if there were no way to depriue Princes, and to take their Crownes from them, wee were in worse case than heathens) bee not a prophane despising the Counsell of God towarde his Church, and an open betraying of your vnquiet stomackes when you bee in trouble. Our Saui∣our foreteaching his that they shoulde bee * 1.1086 brought before Kinges and Ru∣lers, and put to death, and hated of all men for (his) names sake: addeth not as you would haue it, and hee that first rebelleth, but * 1.1087 hee that endureth to the end shall bee saued; and againe, not with violence restraine them, but * 1.1088 in patience possesse your owne soules. This is the way for all Christian subiects to conquerre tyraunts, and this is the remedie prouided in the newe Testament against all persecutions, not * 1.1089 to resist powers, which GOD hath ordayned, lest wee damned: but with all meekenes to suffer, that we may bee crowned.

Phi.

* 1.1090The heathens before Christ and after had meanes to deliuer them-selues

from such tyrants as were intolerable, and euidently pernicious to humane societie and the good of the people, for whose peace and preseruation they were created by man or ordayned by God.

Theo.

A meane they had to dispatch such as they counted tyrants, and that was to kill them,* 1.1091 which Christians may not imitate: and yet did your Holy Father of late in Cardinall Comos letter promise earthly and heauen∣ly recompence to Parry for offering his seruice to kill her maiestie. The letter is extant, the purpose confessed, the partie executed.* 1.1092 Looke there, you shall see the Bishoppe of Rome and his Cardinals to bee right heathens, and to carrie the same myndes that they did, if not worse. For they know∣ing no GOD besides the ghesse of their owne heartes, and hauing no rule to leade them but onely reason, and buylding a felicitie to them-selues in this life: sawe no cause why one man shoulde bee suffered to afflict and disease a number: and supposing any thing to bee lawfull that relieued the Common wealth, they decreed him to bee no murtherer, but a delyuerer of his coun∣trie that woulde kill a tyrant: You hauing the manifest voyce of GOD thou shalt not kill, which you ought to preferre afore your owne lyues: and being prohibited by the holy Ghost * 1.1093 to doe euill that good may come thereof, with what faces can you, not onely acquite them, and praise them, that kill Magistrates, but also assure them of rewarde in heauen that wilfully destroy their Princes: and where GOD threatneth * 1.1094 dam∣nation to all that resist them, make it meritorious to murther them, and en∣courage subiects to the slaughter of their Princes, as to an holy and honoura∣ble exployte?

Lest you denie it,* 1.1095 or Posteritie not beleeue it, thus sayth the Cardinall in his letter to William Parry:

Mon signore la Santita de N.S. ha veduto le let∣tere di V.S. del primo con la fede inclusa, & not puo se non laudare la buona disposit∣tione & risolutione, che scriue di tenere verso il seruitio & beneficio publico, nel che la Santita sua lessorta diperseuerare, con farne riuscire li effetti che V.S. promette: Et accioche tanto maggiormente V.S. sia aiutata da quel buon spirito che l••hamosso, le concede sua Beneditione, plenariae Indulgenza & remissione di tutti li peccati, secon∣do che V.S. ha ••hiesto, assicurandossi che oltre il merito, che n'hauera in cielo vuo, le anco sua Santita constituirsi debitore a riconoscere li meriti di V.S. in ogni miglior modo che potra, & cio tanto piu, quanto che V.S. vsa maggior modestia in non pre∣tender mente. Metta dunque ad effetto li suoì santi & honorati pensieri, & attenda a star sano. Che per fine io me le offero di core, & le desidero ogni buono & felice succes∣s••▪

Di Roma a 30. di Gennaro. M.D.Lxxxiiii.

Al piacer di V.S. N. Cardinale di Como. Al Sig. Guglielmo Parri.

Sir, the holynes of our Lord (the Pope) hath seene your letter with the credence inclosed, & cannot but praise your good disposition & * 3.1 resolution

which, you write, holdeth to the seruice and benefite publike. Wherein his holynes exhorteth you to continue and to bring to passe that which you promise. And to the end you may be the more ayded by that good spirite which hath enduced you to this, his blessednes graunteth you full pardon & forgiuenes of all your sinnes, as you requested; assuring you that besides the merite which you shall receiue in heauen, his holines wil make himselfe a farther debtour, to acknowledge your deseruings in the best maner that he may: and so much the more, because you vse so great modestie in not pre∣tending any thing. Put therefore in act your holy and honorable thoughts, and looke to your safetie. And so I present my selfe hartily to you, and wish you all good and happie successe.

From Rome the 30. of Ianuary, 1584.

Yours to dispose, N. Cardinal of Como.

Cicero neuer sayd so much in the praise of Brutus and Cassius that slew Cae∣sar in the Senate house: as Como doth to incite this Traitour to murder the Queene of England. You did wel therefore to take the heathens for your Pat∣terne: it is right an heathenish tricke to kill Princes vpon any colour of tyran∣nie or heresie:* 3.2 but if you lysten to the spirit of God speaking by the mouthes of his Prophets and Apostles, hee will teach you an other lesson. Who can lay his hand on the Lords annoynted, and be guiltlesse? saith Dauid of Saul: whē yet Saul in all mens sight was a tyrant and by your opinion deposed. Whosoe∣uer resist, purchase to themselues damnation, sayth Paul, when none were Princes but such as were manifest and mightie bloodsuckers: what then shall become of such as pursue them to death or lay violent hands on them? * 3.3 Submit your selues, sayth Peter, that is murder them not: though you suffer as in∣nocents.

Phi.

* 3.4 As for murdering of Princes I will not meddle with it. If Parry did attempt it, reason he should answere it, & not wee.

Theo.

Your holy Father did cōmend him, & exhort him to continue the mynd with promise to reward him.

Phi.

These be secrets to vs.

The.

In deed they be the mysteries of Antichrist: but some of your fellowes were well acquainted with the case & consulted in plain speach, if it were leason to kill the Queeene, as William Chreicton confes∣seth hee was.

Phi.

There you see hee answered no.

Theo.

But you resolue yea.

Phi.

You heare me say no such worde.

Theo.

Parry himselfe collected no lesse out of your owne writings. DOCTOR ALLENS booke, sayth hee, was sent mee out of Fraunce: It redoubled my former conceits, euery word in it was a warrant to a prepared mynde. It taught that kinges may bee excōmu∣nicated, depriued and violently handled: It proueth that all warre cyuill or forraine vndertaken for religion is honorable.

Phi.

By his patience and yours to, no such thing may iustly bee collected out of my woordes, that Princes may lawfully bee murdered by their owne subiectes.

Theoph.

May there not? Go no farther than the very sentence

which Parrie citeth. There is no warre in the world so iust or honorable, be it ciuill or forraine,* 3.5 as that which is waged for religion. Be not these your owne wordes?

Phi.

They be.

Theo.

Ciuill warre, is of subiectes against their Prince.* 3.6

Phi.

It is.

Theo.

And in warre, he that may lawfully fight, may he not lawfully kill?

Phi.

You fetch about otherwise than I ment.

Theo.

Murdering and killing of Princes, be grosse and vnmannerly speaches: but ob∣seruing your dainty stile,* 3.7 you could not speake it in exacter termes. The issue of warre is death, as euery baby knoweth. If then Subiects may leuie warre against their Princes for religion, which is the maine scope of your fift chap∣ter: Ergo your doctrine is, they may kill their Princes: vnlesse you can com∣mand their swordes that they shall not cut, and their bullets that they shall not enter, when they fight.

Phi.

They may saue the Princes life,* 3.8 though they winne the fielde.

Theo

They may, if they lift; but I pray you Sir, when you fight for religion, whom doe you directly impugne? the people or the Prince?

Phi.

Thats an other matter.

Theo.

And when you must place an other in the steede of the prince ••••posed, whose life do you chiefly seeke for? Not the Princes?

Phi.

If the Prince will not otherwise yeelde.

Theo.

And if the Prince doe yeelde, are not your lawes such, that you may put him to death for an heretike?

Phi.

Except he reuolt from his heresie.

Theo.

Then neuer dissemble, the principal person that you shoote at in your ciuill warre for religion is the Prince: whose crown you reach at as being depriued by your censures, and whose life by your lawes you can not spare:* 3.9 except her highnesse will forsake Christ, and stand at the Popes mercy: which God defend.

Phi.

That is no murdering but censuring of Princes, by the iudgement of holy Church.

Theo.

So the Pharisees did not murder Christ, they did but censure him as worthy to die: and then deliuered him to the secular power: but yet S. Stephen saide vnto them: you betrayed & murdered that iust one.

Phi.

We haue the iudgement of holy Church for our doinges.

Theo.

Neuer talke of your censures,* 3.10 as if they were the iudgementes of holy church, so long as they ende in murders; they bee the wicked, iniurious and mischeeuous at∣temptes of Antichrist, incensing subiectes to rebell against the powers which God hath ordained, to their owne damnation: and you be the blazers and abet∣tours of that his impietie: and for lacke of better proofes, you bring the Pagās and Heathens which knew not God, to fortifie your doinges.

Phi.

They had meanes to deliuer themselues from tyrantes: shal wee haue none? They had murdering of tyrants, which God hath prohibited to all christiās to∣ward priuate men, much more toward Princes. Deliueraunce if you woulde haue, obtaine it by praier, and expect it in peace: those be weapons for Christiās: Somerfields * 3.11dagge, and Parries * 3.12dagger be diuelish meanes to dispatch prin∣ces, vsed by Heathens to reuenge their pursuers, but to their sharpe and heauie punishment before God, who hath taught his an other way to deliuer thēselues from tyrantes: that is, to repay no man (therefore not Magistrates) euill

for euill▪ to be pacient in tribulation, to reioice in hope, not to auenge thē selues but to blesse their persecutors, to blesse them I say and not to curse them: much lesse to kill them. These be the manifest precepts of Christ: If you be of God, you will heare them: If not, in truth you bee heathen: and then may you well follow your forefathers the heathens, in murdering, or as you cal it, in depriuing and restraining of Princes.

Phi.

* 3.13The bond and obligation we haue entered into for the seruice of Christ and the Church, farre exceedeth all other dutie, which wee owe to anie humane creature: and therefore where the obedience to the inferiour hindereth the seruice of the other which is superiour, wee must by Lawe and order discharge our-selues of the in∣feriour.

Theo.

You say you haue heapes of learning: sure you shew litle. There is no doubt, but the dutie which we owe to Christ and his church, farre exceedeth the seruice that we can owe,* 3.14 or must yeelde to any humane creature: and also against the superiour wee must yeelde no obedience to the inferiour: and thence you may rightly conclude, that we must not obey man aboue, or against God: but when you inferre that if Princes commaund some thinges against Go••, you must therefore obey them in nothing: this is wicked and most absurde so∣phistrie. Wee must not obey them in those pointes which they commaund a∣gainst God: in all other thinges we must; because God hath so prescribed vs to doe.

Take an example of the Tyrantes that were in the Apostles time. Did they not directly commaunde against God, not in one or two, but in all mat∣ters of religion? It is euident they did. Did the Apostles thence conclude that the christians should take them for no Princes; but by law and order be dischar∣ged of all other seruice due vnto them as you doe. It is euident they did not. Yea rather they earnestly adiured all christians to be subiect to them in all other things, and euen in those thinges which were commaunded against God, to * 3.15 submitte them-selues with meekenesse and reuerence, to indure the Magistrates pleasure, though not to obeie his will. Why then in mat∣ters of so great moment bring you so light and vaine delusions? Why repeate you so often the same antecedent, and neuer attende the fault of your conse∣quent?

Phi.

* 3.16The wife if shee cannot liue with her owne husband (beeing an Infidel or an heretike) without iniurie and dishonour to God; shee may depart from him, or con∣trariwise hee from her, for the like cause: neither oweth the innocent partie, nor the other can lawefullie claime any coniugall duetie or debt in this case.

The very bondslaue, which is in an other kinde no lesse bound to his Lorde and master, than the subiect to his Soueraigne: may also by auncient Imperiall Lawes depart and refuse to obey or serue him, if he become an heretike, yea ipso facto hee is made free.

* 3.17Finally the parents that become heretikes lose the superioritie and dominion they haue by Lawe or nature ouer their owne children.

Therefore let no man maruel that in case of heresie the Soueraigne loseth his supe∣rioritie and right ouer his people and kingdome.

Theophil.

If wee shoulde graunt you these three precedentes, euen as your selfe set them downe,* 3.18 they woulde nothing further your conclusi∣on.

That hereticall Husbandes, Masters and Parentes loose their right and interest which they otherwise haue in their wiues, seruantes and chil∣dren: is no position of Gods Lawe, but a terrour deuised and established by the Princes power to fraie men from Heresie. Nowe Princes ap∣point punishmentes for their Subiectes, not for them-selues: therefore no good consequent can bee framed from these paternes to the depriua∣tion of Princes.* 3.19 It is ouer much bouldnesse in you, Masters, with∣out authoritie to require to punishe your Superiours in such sorte, as they with authoritie punish their subiectes. They bee Princes, you bee not: they beare the sworde to reuenge wickednesse, you doe not: they may dis∣pose of their people bee they Masters or Parentes, you may not dispose of them being Magistrates: Much lesse may you turne the Lawes, which they made to punish subiectes, against themselues: That were to make them not Princes ouer others, but Subiectes vnder you; which I trust they bee not.

You see the disparison of your examples: and so the disiuncture of your argument:* 3.20 and yet your supposementes bee not simplie true. Neither infidelitie nor heresie by Gods Lawe doeth dissolue matrimonie. The A∣postle willeth the beleeuing wife to staie with the vnbeleeuing husbande: if hee bee so content: and our Sauiour will haue no man putte away his wife for heresie,* 3.21 but onelie for incontinencie. Where daunger of life is feared, or bodily wrong offered; the Magistrate may permit the wife to dwell asunder from her husbande till hee bee reclaimed:* 3.22 but in no case to bee diuorced.

The Seruaunt is not so surely bounde to his Master as the Subiect is to the Prince: power of life and death the Master hath none: the Prince hath; refuge against the Master the Seruaunt hath to the common gouer∣nour of them both,* 3.23 which is the Magistrate: the Subiect hath no re∣fuge against his Soueraigne, but onely to God by prayer and patience: and therefore the Prince may demise the Seruaunt, if the Master bee like to corrupt him: but no man can discharge the Subiecte, though the Prince goe about to oppresse him, and that your owne example will conclude.* 3.24 For who set free the Seruaunt from his Maister, the Apostles or Princes? You knowe the Apostles neither did nor might attempt anie such thing. Peter in Gods behalfe requireth all Seruaunts with feare to obey their Masters (excepting neither infideles nor heretikes) not only if they were good & curteous, but though they were froward. For that is thanksworthie if a man for conscience towards God (that is chiefly for religion) indure grief

and suffer wrong vndeserued. If then Peter, whom you make the Pillor of your Popedome, neither would, nor could depriue a poore crafts-man (though an infidell or an heretike) of his seruaunt or prentize: what right can your ho∣ly Father now haue to depriue Princes of their crownes for those or any other causes: and to absolue their subiectes from all obedience, though they woulde yeeld it and haue sworne it?

That Parentes should loose the regiment and authority which by nature & law they haue ouer their children; is a late Popes decree, which we litle regard: & not found in the extrauagants, as you quote it, Cap. ••in. but in the Decretals of Sixtus,* 3.25 lib. 5. de haereticis, cap. 2. and were it to bee founde in ancient imperiall Lawes that heretikes should not bring vp their children, for feare of infecting them, which we greatly mislike not: yet no Law, Gods, nor mans doth licence the sonne to dishonour, relinquish, forsweare and murder his father, though a Turke or a Saracene, as you teach subiectes to vse their Princes.

Phi.

Thus much may (as we trust) suffice with all reasonable indifferent persons,* 3.26 for defence of our brethren.

Theo.

Thus much sufficeth to conuince you of that wherewith you were charged: that is with liking, labouring, perswading, and expecting the de∣priuation and destruction of your naturall and lawfull Soueraigne:* 3.27 And since the foundation of your doinges hath neither warrant in the worde of God, nor example in the church of Christ for a thowsande yeares, as we trust the rea∣der by this time perceiueth, but onely dependeth on the late violent and wicked treacheries of Popes, swelling with earthly pride, and sauoring of filthy gaine, who for the readier atchiuing of their interprise, began with cursing, & alwayes ended in sowing seditions, menaging rebellions, kindling warres, allowing periuries, vpholding treasons, and shaking the frame of the earth with horrible tumults: I hope no Christian subiect wil be so vnwise as to beleeue you, or so wicked as to follow you: seeing you pretend religion, & defend rebellion, & come now to the publike patrocination of that which al this while you secretly cloked with cunning and suttle euasions: knowing that God is the ordainer of Prin∣ces, and will be the reuenger of all that presume to displace them or resist thē: he hauing expresly commanded them to be serued, obeyed, and honoured.

Phi.

It shall not be amisse perhaps to set downe the iudgement and practize of Pro∣testantes in (this very) case:* 3.28 which though it weigh litle or nothing with vs, as being altogither both done and spoken of seditious and partiall affection to their heresie, and against the lawfull Magistrate of God: yet you seeing (your) own masters against (you) shall well perceiue that the resisting of Princes and Magistrates in cause of religion, as also the subiectes taking armes for their defence in such a case, is no way to be accoun∣ted treason: but most lawfull according to (your) new Gospell.

Theo.

As for the newnesse of our Gospell, we say with Tertullian: If Christ were euer and afore all,* 3.29 the truth (of his Gospell) is as auncient and euerla∣sting. Let them therefore looke to themselues, to whome that is newe, which in it selfe is olde. Masters we haue none, but Christ, neither binde we

our selues to the will of any but only of God.* 3.30 And though by your owne con∣fession in the next Section before, we neede not busie our selues to defende euerie priuate mans writing or action concerning (this) matter: yet least by deprauing the sense and abusing the words of some that neuer spake of the case in question betweene vs, you should commend rebellion to the common people as allowed of either side, yours and ours, in cause of religion: I will not be grieued to sitt their sayinges, and to consider how far they make with you or against you.

Phi.

First (your) grand-master Iohn Caluine putteth downe his oracle as a con∣clusion approued of (your) whole sect and confraternity in these wordes:* 3.31 Abdicant se potestate, terreni Principes, dum insurgunt contra Deum: immo indigni sunt qui censeantur in hominum numero. Potius ergo conspuere oportet in illorum capita, quam illis parere, vbi sic proteruiunt vt velint spoliare Deum suo iure, &c. Which in eng∣lish is thus:* 3.32 Earthly Princes do bereaue themselues of al authoritie when they do erect themselues against God, yea they are vnworthy to be accounted in the number of men: and therefore wee must rather spit vppon their heades, than obey them; when they become so proude, or peruerse, that they will spoile God of his right; and to the same place I further referre the Reader for his instruction.

Theo.

Caluine is so well knowen to those that bee learned or wise for his great paines and good labours in the church of God: that a few snarling Fri∣ers can not impeach his name, though you neuer so wretchedly peruert his wordes.* 3.33

Phi.

Wee peruert them not, we alleadge them as they lie.

Theo.

Caluine in that place speaketh not one word of depriuing of Princes of their Crownes, or resisting them with armes: but onely sheweth that Daniell did rightly defend himself for not obeying the kinges wicked edict, because it was ioyned with the manifest dishonor of God and restraint of his seruice, which no king can prohibite.

By Abdicant se potestate, he meaneth not they forfeite their Crownes, but that they loose their power to commaunde in those thinges,* 3.34 which in other cases, that be lawfull, they notwithstanding retaine. And though the phrase, to spit vpon their heades seeme somewhat harde: yet the comparison so stan∣ding as he maketh it: that is, whether we were better vtterly to contemne their impious edictes, and to defie such sinneful actes to their faces, which is ment by spitting at them, or else obey them spoyling God of his right, and as it were pulling him out of heauen; I say we must no way consent to yeelde any re∣gard or reuerence to their idolatrous rage and pride against God. This is all that Caluine in vehement wordes, as his maner is, vrgeth; and this is farre from rebelling & pursuing Princes with armes, as you would haue his wordes to sound.

Phi.

Let the Reader view the place & see whether your construction be true or no.

Theo.

With a good will.* 3.35 If you finde one word there of taking or v∣sing weapon or violence against the king, I yeelde the whole. For how could any such thing be grounded vpon Daniels example? He submitted himselfe to bee cast to the Lions for the breach of the kinges commaundement. And when

he was mightily deliuered from their iawes by the hand of God, all that he said to the king, was, against thee O king I did no euill, meaning in that he ser∣ued GOD, though the king by his Lawe had prohibited him so to doe for thir∣tie dayes. Upon that Caluine saith: Daniell coulde not obey the kinges e∣dict, but hee should deny God. Hee sinned not against the king, when he constantly went forward in the exercise of prayer to God. Daniel therefore, doeth rightly * 3.36 defend himself that he did no wickednesse against the king, in that, being bound to obey the preceptes of God he neglected the kinges commaundement to the contrary. Then follow your wordes: that Princes loose their right to be obeyed, when they presume to commaund against God: and that wee were better defie their edictes to their faces, than obey them when they waxe so froward that they will put God from his right and sit in his throne.

Phi.

For declaration of (this) text and for cutting off all cauillation about the interpretation of his wordes, (your) brother Beza shall speake next,* 3.37 who alloweth and highly commendeth in writing, the fighting in Fraunce for religion, against the lawes and lawfull king of that countrie, saying in his Epistle dedicatorie of his new Testamēt to the Queene of England her selfe: That the Nobility of France, (vnder the noble Prince of Condy) laide the first foundation of restoring true Christian religion in France,* 3.38 by consecrating most happily their blood to God in the battel of Druze. Where of also the Ministers of the reformed French Churches (as their phrase is) do giue their common verdict in the confession of their faith, thus: We affirme that subiects must obey the Lawes, pay tribute, beare all burdens imposed, and sustaine the yoke e∣uen of infidel Magistrates: so for all that, that the supreme dominion and due of God bee not violated.

Theo.

You haue already belied Caluine, and nowe you take the like course with Beza and the French churches. Their speach can bee no declaration of Caluines words; if they did leane that way which you make them, as they doe not: & therefore this is but a Friers tricke to abuse both writers & Readers.

Phi.

Beza highly commendeth the fighting in Fraunce for religion, against the Lawes, and lawfull king of that countrie.

Theo.

The battell, which Beza spea∣keth of,* 3.39 was neither against the Lawes, nor the king of that countrie. That olde fore the Duke of Guise, hating the Nobles of Fraunce as being himselfe a straunger,* 3.40 and seeking to tredde them downe, whom he knew inclined to re∣ligion, that he might strengthen him selfe and his house to take the crowne, if ought shoulde befall the kinges line: as his sonne the yong Duke at this pre∣sent in armes for that cause doth not sticke to professe watching his oportunitie, whiles the king of Fraunce was yet vnder yeares, armed him-selfe to the field, as his sonne now doth, and against all Lawe with open force murdered many hundreth subiectes, as they were making their prayers to God in their assemblies: vpon pretence that their seruice was not permitted by the Lawes of that Realme. The Nobles and Princes of Fraunce perceiuing his ma∣lice & seeing his iniustice, that being a subiect as they were, he would with pri∣uate and armed violence murder innocents, neither conuented nor condemned,

which the king himselfe, if he had beene of age, by the lawes of their Countrie could not doe, gathered togither to keepe their owne liues from the fury of that violent bloodsucker: and in that case if they did repell force, what haue you to say against it, or why should not Beza praise the Prince of Condy and others for defending the Lawes of God and that Realme against the Guises open in∣iurie with the consecrating of their blood most happily to God?

Phi.

The Duke did nothing without the king and the Queene mother: and therefore impugning the one they impugne the other.

Theo.

The king was yong and in the Guises hands: & therefore his consent with the Peeres & states of his Realme, that a subiect should doe execution vpon his people by the sword without all order of iustice, could bee nothing worth. The king had neither age to discerne it, nor freedome to denie it, nor law to decree it.* 3.41

Phi.

The Queene mother had her sonne in custodie and not the Duke: and with her con∣sent were these thinges done.

Theo.

Of the Queene mother of Fraunce, I will say no more, but that the auncient lawe of that Realme did barre her from the Crowne: and therefore her consenting with the Guise might sharpen the doer, but not authorize the deede.

Phi.

Defend you then their bearing armes against the king?

Theo.

To depriue the king or annoy the Realme they bare none; but to saue themselues from the violent and wrongfull oppression, of one that abused the kinges youth to the destruction of his lawes, Nobles and com∣mons.

Phi.

As you say.

Theo.

And you shall neuer proue the contrary.

But these thinges are without our limites. Wee be scholers not souldiers, diuines not lawyers, English not French. The circumstances of their warres no man exactly knoweth besides themselues: as also we knowe not the lawes of that Land.* 3.42 We wil therefore not enter these actes which haue so many parts, precedentes, causes, concurrents, and those to vs vnknowen, and yet all to bee discussed and proued before Beza may be charged with this opinion by his cō∣mending the battel of Druze: but will rather giue you his vndoubted iudge∣ment out of his owne workes quite against that which you slaunder him with.

Purposely treating of the obedience which is due to Magistrates, thus hee resolueth:* 3.43 Quod autem attinet ad priuatos homines, tenere illos oportet plu∣rimum inter se differre, iniuriam inferre & iniuriam pati: Iniuriam enim pati no∣strum est, sic praecipiente Domino, & suo exemplo nobis praeeunte, quum nobis il∣lam vi arcere non licet ex nostrae vocationis praescripto; extra quam nefas est no∣bis vel pedem ponere: neque aliud vllum remedium hic proponitur priuatis hominibus tyranno subiectis, praeter vitae emendationem▪ & preces & lacrymas. As touching priuate men, they must holde great difference betweene doing and suffering wrong. It is our part to suffer iniurie: the Lord so com∣maunding and teaching vs by his owne example, for so much as it is not lawfull for vs to repell it with force, by the prescript of our calling, from the which we may not step one foote: neither is there here proposed any other remedy for priuate men that are vnder a tyrant, but the amending of their liues, and therewithall prayers and teares.

And making a plaine distinction betweene not obeying and taking armes, whē the Magistrate commaundeth against God, hee saith:* 3.44 This rule is firme and sure, that we must obey God rather than man, so often as we can not obey the preceptes of men, but wee must violate the authoritie of that supreme King of Kinges and Lord of Lordes: yet so that wee remember it is one thing not to obey them, and an other thing to resist, or take armes, which God hath not permitted thee.* 3.45 So the midwiues are praised that o∣beyed not Pharaoh: and the Apostles and all the Prophetes and Martyrs could by no tyrants bee brought to betray the truth with their silence. What then we thinke of the subiectes dutie to the Magistrate, you shall far more certainly and truly learne by this our doctrine, than by their slanders which are not ashamed to ioyne vs with the frantike Anabaptistes subuerting the Magistrates authority.

* 3.46How the confession of the reformed churches in Fraunce should allow rebel∣lion, I see no coniecture in their words, vnlesse a rebel may haue them to mis∣take and depraue at his pleasure. Subiectes must obey the lawes, pay tribute, beare al burdens imposed, and sustaine the yoke euen of infidel Magistrates: so for all that, that the supreme dominion & due of God be not violated. What mislike you in these words? Would you that Infidels should bee serued afore, or aboue God?

Phi.

Their meaning is that if Gods due be once vi∣olated, we must no longer pay tribute, nor obey the Lawes of any Prince.

Theo.

How gather you that out of this place? Their wordes sound other∣wise. Subiectes must obey the lawes,* 3.47 and sustaine the yoke euen of Infi∣dels, so that the supreme dominion of God be not violated.

Phi.

If that be violated, they must obey no longer, but elect an other Prince.

Theo.

That is your rebellious inclination, not their position: They say subiectes must o∣bey Princes (so) farre foorth (as the supreme dominion of God bee not violated). In any matter if the choice come betweene God and the Prince, which of the twaine shalbe serued and obeied, God must euer be preferred.

Phi.

Surely they meane, that if once the Magistrate violate the supreme dominion of God, we must account him no longer a magistrate.

Theo.

The diuell himselfe can shew no greater malice than to peruert that which is well spoken: and to force a leude sense of his owne on an other mans wordes. It is euident they neuer ment that if the Magistrate once violate Gods due, the pe••∣ple might reiect him, for then were it not needeful at al to sustaine the yoke of a•• infidel, as their owne wordes import;* 3.48 because he can not be an Infidell, except he first violate the supreme dominion of God by commanding against his truth in matters of religion; and therefore they ment as their wordes lie; that euen Infidels if they bee Princes must be obeyed, but so that Gods due bee euer for∣prised. If they presume to violate the dominion which God hath reserued to himselfe, we may not rebel (that is your Iesuitical doctrine) but disobey them, in that or any point that is prescribed by man against the will of God, and sub∣mit our selues to indure persecution for * 3.49 righteousnesse sake: which, as our

Sauiour assureth vs, is not without great and happy recompence.

Phi.

Zuinglius likewise a cater-cosen to the Caluinistes in religion, writeth thus:* 3.50 If the Empire of Rome, or what other soueraigne soeuer, should oppresse the sincere Re∣ligion and we negligently suffer the same, wee shalbe charged with contempt, no lesse than the oppressors thereof themselues: whereof we haue an example in the fifteenth of Ieremy, where the destruction of the people is prophecied; for that they suffered their king Manasses, being impious and vngodly, to be vnpunished.

And more plaine in an other place.* 3.51 When kinges (saith he) rule vnfaithfully, and otherwise than the rule of the Gospell prescribeth, they may, with God, be deposed: as, when they punish not wicked persons, but specially when they aduance the vngodly, as idle Priests, &c. Such may be depriued of their dignity, as Saul was.

Theo.

I vndertake not to discusse or defend ech seueral mans opiniō or speech.* 3.52 The Romanes we know could neuer abide in their citie y^e name of a king. The commonwealthes of Venice, Millan, Florence & Genua are of the same minde. Many states haue gouernors for life or for yeares as they best liked that first e∣rected their policies: & yet a soueraignty still remaning somwhere in the people, somewhere in the Senate, somwhere in the Prelates & Nobles that elect or as∣sist the Magistrate: who hath his iurisdictiō allotted and prefixed vnto him, thus far and no further, and may be resisted & recalled from any tyrannous excesse, by the generall and publike consent of the whole state where hee gouerneth. In Germanie the Emperour him-selfe hath his boundes appointed him which he may not passe by the lawes of the Empire:* 3.53 & the Princes, Dukes & cities that are vnder him, haue power to gouerne & vse the sworde, as Gods ministers in their own charges. And though for the maintenance of the Empire, they be sub∣iect to such orders as shall bee decreed in the conuent of all their States, and according to that direction are to furnish the Emperour with men and monie for his necessarie warres and defences: yet if he touch their policies, infringe their liberties, or violate the specialties which hee by oth and order of the Em∣pire is bound to keepe: they may lawfully resist him, and by force reduce him to the ancient and receiued fourme of Gouernment, or else repell him as a ty∣rant, and set an other in his place by the right and freedome of their Country.* 3.54 Therefore the Germanes doinges or writinges can helpe you litle in this que∣stion. They speake according to the lawes and rights of the Empire: thēselues being a verie free state and bearing the sworde as lawfull Magistrates to de∣fend their liberties and prohibite iniurie, against all oppressours, the Empe∣rour himselfe not excepted.

In this sense, Zuinglius may say that if the Empire of Rome,* 3.55 or any other Soueraigne should oppresse the truth & they (that haue rightful power by the lawes of their country to withstand) should negligently suffer the same, they shalbe charged with contempt no lesse than the oppressors themselues: but that subiectes and such as are onely bounde to obey, and not by the Lawes of the Lande authorised to vse the sworde, shoulde take weapon in hande to displace the Prince and change the state, that Zuinglius neuer sayde nor

much lesse that the Pope might warrant such priuate violence.

Phi.

For his example he bringeth the men of Iuda and Ierusalem whom God by Ieremie threatned to destroy for that they suffered their king Manasses, being impious and vngodly, to be vnpunished, & yet the people of Israel had no such Soue∣raingty ouer their king.

Theo.

What Soueraignty the whole people of Is∣rael had ouer their kinges is a question amongst the learned, & Zuinglius might be of opinion they had. When Saul would haue put Ionathan his son to death: the people would not suffer him so to do,* 3.56 but deliuered Ionathan that hee died not. When Dauid purposed the reducing of the Arke, his speech to the people was:* 3.57 If it please you we will send to the rest of our brethren, that they may assemble themselues vnto vs. After Salomons death all the congregation of Israell came and said to Roboam, make thy fathers yoke, which he put vpon vs, lighter, and we wil serue thee: as if it had lien in their choice to be subiect or free from the kinges power. The people likewise tooke Ieremy, when hee had prophesied against them and said, thou shalt die the death.* 3.58

These places haue perswaded some and might leade Zuinglius to think, that the people of Israell, notwithstanding they called for a king, yet reserued to themselues sufficient authority to ouerrule their king in those thinges which seemed expedient & needfull for the publike welfare: else God would not punish the people for the kings impietie which they must suffer & might not redresse. But yet in the 15. of Ieremie there is no such cause pretended: their consent rather and zeale to please Manasses in his wickednesse,* 3.59 & their generall shrin∣king back from truth so lately professed vnder Ezechias, for feare of his cruelty that did next succeede: were the causes why God would punish both the king and the Realme. For God neuer required of the people to displace their Prince that we can reade, but onely that they should rather yeeld their liues than forsake his truth, when any tyrant offered to deface his glory.

Phi.

By Zuinglius decision, the people may depose the Prince.

Theo.

Zuin∣glius doth shew the causes for which magistrats may be iustly deplaced by those that haue authoritie to doe it: but hee giueth no priuate man leaue to take the sword or offer violence to any Prince, though he be a tyrant: againe, he speaketh of Rulers elected and limited, not succeeding and absolute: In which ease by the Lawes of sundrie Realmes, much is permitted, which otherwise may not bee presumed.

Phi.

Nay hee speaketh of all sortes of Princes whether they bee made by succession, election or vsurpation.

Theo.

In that Article hee mentioneth them, but hee neither resolueth any certainetie of them, or al∣loweth any force to bee vsed against them. Of hereditarie succession these be his wordes:* 3.60 Mihi ergo compertum non est vnde hoc sit, vt regna per successio∣nes & quasi per manus posteris tradantur. I confesse I haue no skill in this how kingdomes should be deriued to posterity by succession & as it were by hād. If then a tyrant chosen by no man get a kingdom by inheritance: which hath his foundation I know not how:* 3.61 ferre hunc oportet: sed quomodo imperitabit? he must be indured, but how shall he gouern? His answere is: Regnum aliquo sapi∣ente

administrandū erit, the kingdom must be gouerned by some wise mā: that shal assist him. If a tyrant succeeding may not be repelled from his inheritance, but suffered and ass••sted, then by this confession may he not be deposed.

And that no violence may be vsed to any Prince promoted by succession or e∣lection, his words are plaine.* 3.62 Disputing quo pacto mouendus sit officio by what means a magistrat may be displaced, he saith: Non est vt eum trucides, nec vt bel∣lū & tumultis quis exitet, quia in pace vocauit nos Deus. Thou maist not kil him, nor leauie warre or any tumult against him: because God hath called vs in peace.

Phi.

How then shal he be displaced since no Prince will yeeld his crown with∣out force?

Theo.

He answereth, hic iam labor est: this is the difficulty: but his cō∣ceit is, that they which chose him, should denoūce him vnfit to weare the crown: & if he yeeld, it is wel; if not, they must offer their liues in so good a cause as to dy for iustice & truth.* 3.63

Phi.

In faith that were folly, first to prouoke a tyrāt with de∣priuatiō, & after to lay down their necks to his furie.

The.

Yet that is his resolu∣tion:* 3.64 for he addeth, Qui hoc ferre nō possunt, ferant insolentē tyrannū, They that cā not abide (to die for the defence of iustice) let thē tolerate the pride of the tyrāt.

Phi.

Are you of that minde?

Theo.

You are not to seeke after al our reasoning what I thinke; I haue meetely well repeated it. And as for Zuinglius though he measure all Nations by the Germanes, & proportion other kingdomes to the Empire: & in that respect speake somwhat strangely; yet he iustifieth no tumult against a tyrant, much lesse rebellion against lawfull and absolute Princes: which is the case at this instant in question betwixt vs.

That touching rebellion: now for succession, as I muse at his wordes, so I like not his iudgement, when he saith, he can not tell whence it is that kingdoms should go by successiō.* 3.65 The Romane Empire it self from Constantine the great and before till the time of Otho the third, that is 700. yeares and vpward, went by successiō; saue where the right lines failed, or seditiō disturbed the heire. The greatest kingdomes of the West partes, as Fraunce, England, Spaine, Scot∣land and others haue alwayes gone by succession since they were diuided from the Empire, and neuer by election. The like I might say almost of all prophane kingdoms and Monarchies: where not election but successiō hath preuailed. But omit them: God him selfe gaue this to Dauid as a great blessing, of the fruit of thy body will I set vpon thy throne:* 3.66 & this was it which was denied to Saull for reuenge of his disobedience: Thou hast done foolishly: for the Lord had now established thy kingdom vpon Israel for euer. All the recompence which Iehu had for his zealous seruice was this,* 3.67 Because thou hast deligently execu∣ted that which was right in mine eies,* 3.68 (therefore) shall thy sonnes vnto the fourth generation sit on the throne of Israell. So that succession in kingdoms hath not only the consent of al ages & Nations: but the manifest subscription of God himself, that it is his speciall fauor & blessing to continue the successions of godly Princes.

Phi.

And what our english Protestantes write or thinke of this matter,* 3.69 you shal well

perceiue, by their opinion and high approbation of Wiats rebellion in Queene Maries dayes: wherof one of your chiefe Ministers called Goodmā thus speaketh in his trea∣tise intituled;* 3.70 How superiour Magistrates ought to be obeyed. Wiat did but his duty, and it was the duty of all others that professe the Gospell, to haue risen with him, maintenance of the same. His cause was iust, and they all were traytours that tooke not part with him. O noble Wyat, thou art nowe with God, and those worthy men that died for that happie interprise.

Theo.

It is much that you measure the whole Realme by one mans mouth: and more that you drawe the wordes which he spake, from the meaning which he had, to warrant your rebellions. The partie which you name at the time whē he wrote tooke Queene Mary for no lawful Prince: which particular and false supposal beguiled him & made him thinke the better of Wyats war; but our que∣stion is of lawful Princes not of violent intruders. And therefore Goodmans opinion which himselfe hath long since disliked, is no way seruice-able for your seditions.

Ph.

Hold you Queene Mary for an intruder?

Theo.

Not I, but he then did whē he spake these wordes: and so the case doth not concord.

Phi.

Wee take Prin∣ces deposed if they stand out, to be intruders: and so by your owne rule may de∣bell them with armes.

Theo.

Proue first you may depose them; and then if they yeeld not, vse your right.

Phi.

Wee take them for deposed.

Theo.

So did the Iewes take Christ for a blasphemer of God, and deceiuer of the people, and yet that nothing impeached his sanctitie or sinceritie. The Princes right may not goe by your thoughtes. You may quickly perswade yourselues, what you list, as you teach the boyes & girles with vs to pretend conscience, when in deede they should blush at their shamefull ignorance.

Phi.

What the Scottish Ministerie defineth in this question, is plaine, by the ver∣dict of Iohn Knokes their mightiest Prophet:* 3.71 the argument of a treatise of this mat∣ter being set downe by himselfe thus: If the people haue either rashly promoted any ma∣nifest wicked person, or else ignorantly chosen such an one, as after declareth himselfe vnworthy of regiment aboue the people of God (& such be all idolaters & cruel persecu∣tors) most iustly may the same men depose and punish him.

Theo.

Were it in a point of doctrine, or part of faith, it had yet some shew to charge the rest with one mans verdict: but in a singular & superfluous assertion it hath no more ground, than if we should pronounce al Popes, to be coniurers & Atheistes, because Iohn the twelfth, and Syluester the second were such: or sus∣pect al Spaniardes to be as louing to their brethren as Alfonsus was to * 3.72 Ioan∣nes Diazius, whose head he claue a sunder with an hatchet, and the Romanistes to be as vertuously disposed as euer were * 3.73 Petrus Aloisius the son, a famous ci∣tizen of Sodom, or * 3.74 Paulus the third his father a fit bishop for Gomorra, which ywis would offend you.

Knokes booke I haue not seene, and therefore the circumstances I doe not knowe: yet the verie wordes which you bring, proue that hee spake not of Princes entering by inheritance, but of Magistrates promoted by electiō: & that

not a part of the people but the very same States that elected, by their common cōsent may forsake their Gouernor; if he shew himself vnworthy of the regimēt: but whether he meane they may do this by the law of God in all kingdoms or by the lawes of the Lande in some places, these wordes doe not expresse, only hee sayth they that promoted any, may iustly for these causes depose them: which we grant to be true, if the lawes of the Realme warrant the promoters in that action as in some places they doe. If his meaning be otherwise, as we see not his reasons, so we receiue not his speaches, though by his owne wordes he bee cleane out of our question: for he saith not that men may beare armes against inheritours, but that they which choose one Gouernour, haue the same right to choose another if hee be vnfit: which is nothing to Princes that inherite, nor to subiectes that are absolutely bound to obey: as in this Realme and some others they bee.

Phi.

So Luther also the Protestantes Elias being asked his opinion of the Al∣manes confederacie,* 3.75 made at Smalcalde against Charles the fift their lawfull and noble Emperour, answered: that in deede hee was in doubt for a time, whether they might take armes against their supreme Magistrate, or no: but afterward seeing the extremity of things, and that religion could not otherwise be defended, nor themselues: he made no conscience of the matter, but either Caesar, or any, waging warres in his name, might be resisted.

Sleidan also recordeth that the Duke of Saxonie and the Lantzgraue, gaue this reason of their taking armes against their supreme Magistrate:* 3.76 For asmuch (say they) as Caesar intendeth to destroye the true religion and our ancient libertie, he gi∣ueth vs cause enough, why we may with good conscience resist him, as both by prophane & sacred histories may be proued.

The same writer reporteth the like of the Ministers of Magdeburge,* 3.77 declaring how the inferiour may defend himselfe against the superiour, compelling him to doe a∣gainst the truth and rule of Christs lawes.

Theo.

It was skill not to report these places as you found them; least you should open their meaning which maketh nothing for you: and bewray your malice in omitting the limitation of their wordes to serue the licenciousnes of your weapons. Luther as a diuine taught constantly and truely that no Ma∣gistrate should be resisted, exception to that doctrine hee sawe none in the word of God, as at this day we doe not, but that subiection was due to the Magi∣strate were hee tyrant, heretike or infidell:* 3.78 subiection he ment to obey the prin∣ces will if it were agreeable with Gods, or else to indure the sword if the Prince opposed himselfe against God: Yet when Charles the fift determined to warre with the Princes and cities that had renounced the Pope, and the Germane Lawyers made euident demonstration, that the free States by the lawes of the Empire might defend their liberty against Caesar him selfe if hee would im∣pugne it, to whom they were not subiect but with that condition: & no libertie more vrgent or necessarie than libertie of conscience, Luther not reuersing his former opinion, but expoūding himself with an other position which he alwayes

held, that the Gospel doth not bar nor abolish any politik lawes,* 3.79 resolued that in such extremity, hauing the lawes of y^e empire for their warrāt, which he knew not before, they might enter a league, not to displace Caesar as you do, but to de∣fend themselues and their ancient freedom against Caesar or any that would di∣sturbe them in Caesars name. This is the right intent o•• Luthers wordes: and this I weene you will hardly refute or conuert to your purpose.

* 3.80Luther, saith Sleidā, had alwaies taught that the Magistrate should not be resisted: & his book of that matter was extāt. Yet whē the lawiers in that cō∣sultatiō had proued that the lawes (of the Empire) permitted resistāce in som cases,* 3.81 & that this was one of those cases which the lawes did mention, Lu∣ther plainly cōfessed he was ignorant therof before, that any such thing was permitted (by the lawes of the empire) & because the gospel doth not repeal nor abolish the lawes of any cōmonwealth, & the time was now so doutfull & dangerous that not only the lawes themselues, but the very force of cōsci∣ence & necessity did leade thē to armes: he said they might make a league to defēd thēselues, though Caesar or any in is name, wold wage war against thē.

The Duke of Saxony & the Lātzgraue made the same reply to the Emperor when they were proscribed by him,* 3.82 If the Emperor, say they, had kept his bōds & couenants, we would haue done our duties: but because he began first to make the breach, the fault is his. For since he attempteth to roote out religi∣on & subuert our liberty: he giueth vs cause enough to resist him with good conscience. The matter standing as it doth, we may resist, as may be shew∣ed both by sacred and profane stories. Vniust violence is not Gods ordināce, neither are we bound to him by any other reason, than if he keep the condi∣tions, on which he was created Emperour.

* 3.83The same defence was alleaged not by the ministers but by the magistrats of Magdeburg. So our religiō & liberty left vs by our forefathers may be permit¦ted we refuse no kind of duty that ought to be yelded to Caesar or the empire. Now by the lawes thēselues it is prouided that the inferior Magistrate shall not infringe the right of the superior: & so likewise, if the magistrate exceed the limittes of his power & cōmmaund that which is wicked,* 3.84 not onely wee neede not obey him, but if he offer force wee may resist him.

I aske not what fault you can find with their answere: but what propinqui∣ty or neernes hath your fact to theirs? They were magistrates and bare the sword in their own dominions:* 3.85 you are priuat men, & wāt lawful autority to vse the sword. Their states be free & may resist any wrōg by the lawes of y^e Empire: you be subiects & simply bound by the lawes of your coūtry to obey the prince, or abide the pain, which the publike state of this realm hath prefixed. The germane Emperor is elected, & his power abated by the liberties & prerogatiues of his princes that ow not many seruices, & those cōdicional. The Queene of England inheriteth & hath one & the same right ouer all her subiects, be they Nobles or o∣thers. And that which is most to be detested in you: they hauing so good warrāt for their interprise did but ioin togither to saue thēselues, & their coūtries from

seruitude & subuersion: you hauing nor one of those reasōs to iustify your doings, take arms to pul the prince frō her throne & to shorten her dayes with violence.

Phi.

We haue better reason for our doings, than the Germans had for theirs. We haue the lawes of holy church & y^e iudgemēt of Christs vicar to bear vs out.

Theo.

The church of christ hath not to do with deliuering or drawing y^e tēporal sword. She cānot make lawes for princes crowns:* 3.86 neither cā she licence priuate men to stād in armes against a Magistrat: much lesse cā the Pope, whose presum¦ptuus & proud medling w^t the swords & scepters of earthly princes, no law, gods nor mans, but of his own making, did euer alow. If this be al the warrant you haue for bearing arms against your prince, y^e Germans for ought y^• I see may be commēded for retaining their liberty:* 3.87 & you not excused for impugning autority.

Phi.

The Protestantes of al sects do both hold & practise it, England it selfe specially alowing of the same. And therfore there is no treason in this case, if we folow the present diuinity of Englād, nor new exāple if we respect the furious attēpts & rebelliōs of Scot∣land, Flāders, Frāce, & Germany, against their superiors, for maintenāce of their here∣sie, & al wel alowed by the ministery of euery prouince. And vpō these exāples you shold look (my masters of Englād) whē you make so much adoe for one poore cōmotion, made in defence of the catholiks, in 26. yeares space of the greatest persecution & tribulatiō that euer was since Gothes & Vādals times. Where if the Q. had holden her ancestors faith & had ruled ouer so many protestāts but a quarter of the time, afflicting thē, as she hath done catholiks (though perhaps not her selfe so much as her vnmerciful Ministers) her Maiestie should haue seene other maner of attempts against her state and quietnesse, than haue fallen by Catholikes either in England or Ireland in this her raigne.

Theo.

A boulde face, & a bitter tongue bee your best obiections throughout your booke. The Protestants, you say, of al sects do both hold & practise it, England it selfe, specially allowing of the same. How loud a ly the first is, we haue already seen: now to the rest. The tumults of any subiects against their soueraignes as we do not alow: so may we not cōdemn the poore afflicted christians, our neighbors, before we heare them what they can say for their defence.* 3.88 Admit thē to their an∣swere, & then if their attempts be like yours, or themselues of the same minde that you are, we reiect their doings, as hateful before God & man, no lesse than yours. Your Spanish inquisitions & French massacres, where you murdered men, women & children by 1000. & 10000. against the very grounds of al equi∣ty, piety, charity & humanity, without cōuicting, accusing, or so much as calling them before any iudge to heare what was misliked in them, are able to set graue men & good men at their wits ends: & to make them iustly dout, since you refuse the course of all diuine & humane lawes with them, whether by the law of na∣ture they may not defend themselues against such barbarous bloodsuckers: yet we stand not on that: if the lawes of the land, where they conuerse do not permit thē to gard their liues, when they are assaulted w^t vniust force against law: or if they take arms as you do to depose princes, we wil neuer excuse thē frō rebelliō.

Phi.

Then they may resist, but we may not.

Theo.

Your liues are not hunted after for religiō as theirs be: nothing is attēpted against you w^tout due course

and triall of law: towardes them no law is obserued; no punishment is laide on you,* 3.89 but by the full consent of the Nobles and Commons of this realme: & that openly decreed in Parliament. The Friers presume to put them to death vp∣on his sole authority that hath naught to doe with other mens subiectes: you meane to depriue Princes, they seeke no farther but to defende themselues: not denying to their princes any tribute, subiectiō or honor which the lawes of their Countrie require: onely they will not haue the Pope ouerrule Princes as his maner is, and tease them on to all kinde of tyrannyes. These bee differences e∣nough betweene your warres and theirs: and yet for my part I must confesse, that except the lawes of those Realmes doe permit the people to stand on their right if the Prince would offer that wrong, I dare not allow their armes.

Phi.

What their Lawes permit, I know not; I am sure in the meane time they resist.

Theo.

And wee, because wee doe not exactly know what their Lawes permit, see no reason to condemne their doinges without hearing their answere.

Phi.

Thinke you their Lawes permit them to rebell?

Theo.

I bu∣sie not my selfe in other mens common-wealthes as you doe, neither will I rashly pronounce all that resist to bee rebels: cases may fall out euen in christian kingdoms where the people may plead their right against the Prince, and not bee charged with rebellion.* 3.90

Phi.

As when for example?

Theo.

If a Prince shoulde goe about to subiect his kingdome to a forraine Realme, or change the forme of the common wealth, from imperie to tyrannie: or neg∣lect the Lawes established by common consent of Prince and people, to execute his owne pleasure: In these and other cases, which might be named, if the No∣bles & commons ioyne togither to defend their auncient & accustomed libertie, regiment and lawes, they may not well be counted rebels.

Phi.

You denied that euen now, when I did vrge it.

Theo.

I denied that Bi∣shops had authoritie to prescribe conditions to kinges when they crowned thē: but I neuer denied that the people might preserue y^e ••sundation, freedom & form of their common-wealth, which they forprised when they first consented to haue a king.* 3.91

Phi.

I remember you were resolute that subiectes might not resist their Princes for any respectes, and now I see you slake.

Theo.

As I sayde then, so I say now, the Law of God giueth no man leaue to resist his Prince: but I neuer said that kingdoms and common-wealthes might not proportion their States as they thought best by their publike lawes, which afterward the princes thēselues may not violate. By superior powers ordained of God we vn∣derstād not only princes, but al politike states & regimēts, somwhere the people, somwhere the Nobles, hauing the same interest to the sword, y Princes haue in their kingdoms: & in kingdoms where princes beare rule, by y^e sword we do not meane the princes priuate wil against his lawes: but his precept deriued frō his lawes, & agreeing w^t his lawes: which, though it be wicked, yet may it not be re∣sisted of any subiect with armed violence. Mary when Princes offer their subiects not iustice, but force: and despise all Lawes to practise their lustes:* 3.92 not euery, nor any priuate man may take the sword to redresse the Prince: but

if the lawes of the land appoint the nobles as next to the king to assist him in do∣ing right, & withhold him from doing wrong, thē be they licensed by mans law, & so not prohibited by Gods to interpose themselues for the safegard of equitie & innocencie:* 3.93 and by all lawfull and needefull meanes to procure the Prince to bee refourmed, but in no case depriued where the scepter is inherited.

Phi.

If I should assent to this, how doth it acquite your fellowes in Germa∣nie, Flaunders, France, and Scotland, that resist their Catholike Princes for maintenance of their heresies?

Theo.

Not vnlesse they proue their states to be such as I speake of.

Phi.

That they shall neuer.

Theo.

You be deeper in policie than in diuinitie: that belike fitteth your affection better: and yet therein you shew but what a malicious conceit and a slipperie tongue may soone suspect and vtter. It is easie for a running and rayling head to sit at home in his chamber and call all men rebelles, himselfe being the rankest; otherwise I see neither trueth in reporting, nor sense in debating the matters that are so often in your mouth.

Why should the Germanes,* 3.94 submitting themselues to the Emperour at his election but on conditiō, not enioy the same liberties & securities of their publik State which their fathers did before them? Why should they be counted rebels for preseruing their ciuill policie, more than Italians which cut them-selues vtterly from the Empire, by no consent nor allowance, but only by force and disturbance?

The like we say for the Flemmings.* 3.95 What reason the King of Spaine should alter their State, and euert their auncient Lawes, his stile declaring him not to be King but Earle of Flaunders? And being admitted for a pro∣tectour if hee wil needes become an oppressour, why should they not defend the freedome of their countrie?

The Scottes what haue they doone besides the placing the right heire and her own sonne when the mother fledde and forsooke the realme?* 3.96 Be these those (furious attempts and rebellions) you talke of?

In France the King of Nauarre and the Prince of Condey might lawfully defend themselues from iniustice and violence,* 3.97 and be ayded by other Princes their neighbours, if the King as too mightie for them sought to oppresse them, to whom they owe not simple subiection but respectiue homage as Scotland did to England, and Normandie vnto Fraunce when the Kings notwithstand∣ing had bitter warres ech with other. The rest of the Nobles that did assist them: if it were the Kings act that did oppresse them and not the Guises: ex∣cept the Lawes of the land doe permit them meanes to saue the State from open tyranny: I will not excuse: and yet the circumstances must be fully knowen, before the fact can bee rightly discerned, with which I confesse I am not so exactly acquainted.

But graunt you could find vs where PROTESTANTS haue taken armes in some one place or other for religion: their armes were defenciue: not inua∣siue, as yours are; they resisted the Popes inquisitions, not the lawes of their

Countries,* 3.98 as you doe: they rescued their wiues and children from horrible butcherie; they depriued not Princes as you would. And yet all these impa∣rities considered, if I doe not shew by your owne stories an hundreth outra∣ges of your side for one of ours, I am content to lose the cause. Looke backe therefore, Sir Auditor, to your owne accompts, and view with shame enough how many rebellions your fellowes haue made within these last fiue hundreth yeres, how many Princes they haue displaced, poisoned, and murdered: and make no such tragicall exclamations at others for sauing them selues, and their innocent families from your cruell and incredible furies.

Phi.

We put you in mind of the Protestants in other Countries, because you make so much adoe, for one poore commotion in England made in defence of the Catholikes, in twentie six yeres of the greatest persecution and tribulation that euer was since the Gothes and the Vandals times.

Theophi.

That we had but one commotion in this realme, wee may thanke God and not you: you did your best by procuring inuasion abroade, and ripening rebellion at home, to multiplie that one to twentie six, twise tolde, but that the mightie hand of GOD did alwaies vnioint your deuises.

* 3.99Neither make we not so much adoe that you did once rebell: but that you still seeke to continue the same by comforting forraine powers to enter the land, by disposing the heartes of all Catholikes, as you call them, within the realme to waite for that day, by maintaining and auouching the Popes wicked claime to depose Princes for a point of Christian faith, by canonising the Northerne rebels in your open writings for Martyrs; by proclaiming as you doe in this booke, such warres against the Prince to be Godlie, iust and honorable: and last of all by resoluing, directing, and encouraging Parry, So∣merfield, & other that with violent hands sought to attempt your soueraignes life.* 3.100 These be the things for which we make so much adoe, and which if there be but one iote of true religion or obedience in you, my masters of Rhemes, you would not so freshly approue and practise.

The correction that is here laide on you, you euery where amplifie, with wordes of the highest and hoattest degree: as if it were tyranny to touche the hemmes of your garmentes, notwithstanding you seeke to pull the Crowne from the Princes head, and teach others to treadde the same path by your example;* 3.101 but such is your daintinesse that you offering others fier and sword, neuer thinke it sharp enough: And tasting no quicker disci∣pline with vs for twentie yeres than the losse of two shillings by the weeke, or some restraint of libertie, crie out of the greatest persecution and tribulation that euer was since the Gothes and Vandals times. We speake of things that are in the eyes and eares of al men, what punishment did the Lawes of this realme the first twenty yeres of her maiesties raigne inflict to any recusant for religion but either imprisonment or amercement? Which was as easie as you coulde wish, till within these sixe or seuen yeeres, by the facilitie of the Lawe

which you despised, your attempts grewe so daungerous, that the Prince was forced for the repressing of your audacious aduenture, to temper her Lawes with more seueritie.* 3.102 You must thanke your selues therefore if this latter affliction seeme some-what heauier: till you gaue the onset to put the bull in execution which depriued her highnes of the crowne, you were vsed with as much mercy and clemencie as was possible for a Christian prince to afford vn∣ruly subiects: whatsoeuer hath since fallen out must bee imputed not to her maiesties inclination, whereof you had so good proofe for twenty yeeres: but to your wicked and vndutifull affection, that were perplexed to see her liue and gouerne in so long happynesse, and therefore assayed to shorten her reigne.

Philand.

You neuer founde that affection in any Catholike.

Theoph.

Wee neede not search your affections for it: you haue made it an open point of your fayth which no Catholique as you teach must denie, though the affir∣ming of it shoulde cost him his life.* 3.103

Philand.

What doe wee teach?

Theo.

That if the Pope say the woorde, none of your Catholiques within this Realme must obey or accompt her Maiestie for Queene of Englande. And because you woulde bee sure to roote this perswasion in the heartes of your adherentes, you deliuer it them as a part of their fayth, which they must a∣uouche and much more execute, notwithstanding any daunger of death that may bee offered.

Philand.

Where doe wee teach so?

Theoph.

In the cases of conscience, wherewith you furnished the Iesuites that came into Englande. There to the 55. article when you bee asked whether, notwithstanding the bull (of Pius the fifth) that was giuen out,* 3.104 or any bull that the Bishoppe of Rome can hereafter giue foorth, all Catholikes bee bounde to yeelde obedi∣ence, fayth and loyaltie to Queene Elizabeth as to their lawfull Prince and Soueraigne: you make this resolution, Qui hoc modo interrogat, illud quae∣rit, an id potuerit S. Pontifex facere? Cui quaestioni quid debeat Catholicus responde∣re, clarius est quàm vt a me hic explicetur. Sirogatur ergo Catholicus, credis Ro∣manum Pontificem Elizabetham potuisse exauthorare: respondebit non obstante quouis metu mortis, credo. Quaestio enim haec ad fidem spectat & exigit confessionem fidei. Hee that demaundeth this question, asketh (in effect) whether the Pope might do it or no. To the which demand what a catholik ought to an∣swere, it is plainer than that I need here to explicate. If therfore a catholike be asked, do you beleeue the Bishoppe of Rome may depriue Queene Eliza∣beth of her crowne? He must answere, not regarding any danger of death, I beleeue hee may. For this question is a point of fayth, and requireth the confession of (our) fayth. And your selfe in your defence of English Ca∣tholiks say: This was the right and power of Saint Gregorie (to depriue Princes) and this hath beene the fayth of Christian men euer sith our Countrie was conuerted. Why then are you so angrie that Iesuites should bee counted traytours, since you make treason to be a point of your fayth and religion? And howe iust cause

hath the Prince to banish you her land vnder payne of death, when you doe with this cunning inueighle her subiects to rebell against her?

Phi.

It is no treason to say the Pope may depose Princes.

Theo.

Much lesse is it a poynt of Christian fayth that the Pope may depriue the Queene of her Crowne;* 3.105 as you falsly, absurdly and traiterously teach.

Phi.

The Pope receiued that power from Christ.

Theo.

If you did prooue it, you had some colour to beleeue it: but nowe you require all Catholikes boldly to put that into their Creede, which the Pope himselfe for a thousand yeeres was ashamed to professe.

Phi.

Hath hee not the keyes of the kingdome of heauen?

Theo.

But you must prooue hee hath the keyes of all earthly kingdomes.

Phi.

Hee may binde and loose.

Theo.

Sinnes hee may where hee hath charge: but no where Scepters.

Phi.

If Princes persist in sinne, hee may take their Scep∣ters from them.

Theo.

That is it, which all this while you were to prooue; you teach that for religion, which the woorde of GOD reiecteth for re∣bellion: you imbrace it as pietie, which the Church of Christ abhorred as iniquitie.

* 3.106Giue to Caesar, sayth the sonne of God, the thinges which are Caesars. The swoorde and scepter are Caesars: this therefore is a plaine precept to Peter him-selfe and all other Christians to suffer Caesar to enioy his owne. Nowe shewe you an other, that you may take from Caesar that which is Caesars. When one sayde,* 3.107 Master, bid my brother diuide the inheritance with mee: the Lorde answered, man, who made mee iudge or diuider ouer you? If Christ would not meddle with priuate mens inheritances, as being without the compasse of his vocation, I pray you who could make the Pope iudge and dispo∣ser of Princes crownes? Our Sauiour being asked of Pilate what kingdome hee claymed, openly auouched my kingdome is not of this world;* 3.108 and you by one turne of the keies which he gaue to Peter and the rest of his Apostles, would bring all the kingdomes of the woorlde to bee at the Popes appointing. S. Augustine assureth Princes by force of these words,* 3.109 that they shall not need to feare depriuation of their earthly kingdoms at Christs hands. Why enuy you, sayth he, ye kings? Marke & enuie not. (Christ) is a king, but farre otherwise (than you are) which sayd my kingdome is not of this world. Feare not ther∣fore lest the kingdome of this worlde bee taken from you; (rather) an other kingdome shall bee giuen you and that of heauen where hee is king.* 3.110 And so expressely resolueth: Kinges ought not to feare lest they loose their king∣dome, or that their kingdome bee taken from them, as wretched Herode feared. Which is vtterly against you, that make it a point of your fayth, for the Pope to take not onely their kingdomes from them but also their liues.

Phi.

That wee meane when they will not otherwise obey.

Theo.

By your construction & meaning the world is well amended with you. For where the holy Ghost commandeth Prelates, Popes and all others to bee subiect to Princes, you with the cunning of your keyes giue the Spirit of God the plaine ••lip, and chalenge not onely right to rule them, but power to depriue them at

your pleasures. And this haynous impietie, lest the simple should distrust it,* 3.111 you ouer-spred with a couer of the Catholike fayth, as if the Popes ambition, and your sedition, were lately become parts of Christes doctrine.

Phi.

In obedience to the keyes wee put no difference betweene princes and priuate persons.

Theo.

Proue that of priuate persons, which you presume touching Princes, and we will agnise the rest, though wee neede not.

Philand.

What shall wee proue?

Theo.

That the Popes keyes by Gods Lawe reach vnto the goods or landes of the meanest subiect in this Realme.* 3.112

Phi.

I pro∣ued that before, by the dealing of Peter with Ananias, and of Paul with Elimas.

Theo.

And I answered you before, that from Gods miraculous woorking by their mouthes, to your ordinarie calling and attempting the like with your handes, is no good argument. And therefore they might pronounce the woord, and not bee murderers, because the fact was Gods and not theirs: you can not execute the Popes censures, without actuall conspiring and rebelling against your Prince, which God hath prohibited. If then you may not offer the poo∣rest crafts-man that is, that wrong, by the word of God; what groūd of christian religion can this be, that the Pope may take the sword and Scepter from the Prince, and commaund you to bee his helpers and coadiutours in that wic∣ked enterprise, whom the Apostle chargeth to giue tribute, custome, feare and honour to superiour powers that haue the swoorde in Gods steede to rewarde good, and reuenge euill?

Phi.

May not the shepheard reclaime the sheepe, if they will not bee ruled?

Theo.

But no good sheepheard lameth or killeth his sheepe though they will not bee folded; and yet similitudes bee no syllogismes. I trust you will not claime that same dominion ouer Princes, which owners haue ouer their sheepe and oxen.

Phi.

No, but I shewe you by this example that correction is per∣mitted, where direction is refused.

Theo.

Pastours haue their kind of correc∣tion euen ouer Princes,* 3.113 but such as by Gods law may stand with the Pastors vocation, and tend to the Princes saluation; and that exceedeth not the worde and Sacraments: other correction ouer any priuate man, Pastours haue none, much lesse ouer Princes.

Phi.

Yeas they may force them to repentance if they can not perswade them.* 3.114

Theo.

Princes may force their subiects, by the temporall sworde which they beare: bishoppes may not force their flocke with any corporall or externall vio∣lence. Chrysostome largely debateth and fully concludeth this matter with vs.* 3.115 If any sheepe, sayth he, goe out of the right way, & leauing the plentifull pa∣stours graze on barren and steepe-places, the sheephearde somewhat exal∣teth his voyce to reduce the dispersed and stragling sheepe,* 3.116 and to compell them to the flocke. But if any man wander from the right pathe of the chri∣stian fayth, the Pastor must vse great paynes, care, and patience. Neque enim vis illi inferenda, neque terrore ille cogendus, verùm suadendus tantum, vt de inte∣gro ad veritatem redeat. For hee may not be forced, nor constrayned with ter∣ror, but only perswaded to returne againe to the truth. And again, A (Bishop)

can not cure men with such authoritie, as a sheepheard doeth his sheep. For a sheepeheard hath his choyce,* 3.117 to bynde his sheepe, to diet them, to seare them, and cut them: but in the other case the facilitie of the cure consisteth not in him that giueth but onely in him that taketh the medicine. This that admirable teacher perceiuing sayd to the Corinthians: not that wee haue a∣ny dominion ouer you vnder the name of fayth, but that wee are helpers of your ioy. For of all men Christian (Bishoppes) may least correct the faults of men by force.* 3.118 Iudges that are without (the Church) when they take any transgressing the Lawes, they shewe them-selues to bee endued with great authoritie and power, and compell them in spite of their heartes to chaunge their manners. But here (in the Church) wee may not offer any violence,* 3.119 but only perswade. Wee haue not so great authoritie giuen vs by the Lawes, as to represse offendours: and if it were lawfull for vs so to doe, wee haue no vse of any such violent power, for that Christ crowneth them which abstaine from sinne, not of a forced, but of a willing minde and pur∣pose.

* 3.120Hilarie teacheth the same lesson. If this violence were vsed for the true fayth, the Doctrine of Bishoppes woulde bee against it. God needeth no forced seruice,* 3.121 hee requireth no constrained confession. I can not receiue any man, but him that is willing: I cannot giue eare, but to him that intrea∣teth, I cannot signe any but him that (gladly) professeth. Origen agreeth with them both. See the wisedome of the holy Ghost. Because that other faults are iudged by the Lawes of Princes,* 3.122 and it seemed superfluous nowe to prohibite those thinges by Gods Lawe, which are sufficiently reuenged by mans,* 3.123 he repeateth those and none else as fit for religion, of which mans Lawe sayde nothing. Whereby it appeareth that the Iudges of this world, doe meddle with the greatest part of Gods lawe. For all the crimes which God woulde haue reuenged, hee would haue them reuenged not by the Bi∣shoppes and rulers of the Church, but by the Iudges of the worlde: & that Paul knowing rightly calleth (the Prince) Gods minister and iudge of him that doeth euill.

Phi.

Bishoppes may not offer force with their owne handes, but they may command others to doe it for them.

Theoph.

A grosse shift. As though tem∣porall Princes or Iudges did execute malefactours with their owne handes.* 3.124 Bishoppes by vertue of their vocation can not claime the swoorde: and conse∣quently they cannot commaunde or authorize any man to take the goodes or touche the bodies of Christians or Infidels. Which being a cleare conclusion, it is most euident they can much lesse licence you to take the Crownes, and touch the liues of Princes, to whome God hath deliuered the swoorde to iudge the earth,* 3.125 and made them seruants only to himselfe, since all other soules must bee subiect to them by the tenor of his own prescription and their first erection, as the Scripture witnesseth.

Phi.

Say what you will, it is religion, it is no treason to defende that the

Pope may lawfully depose Princes for tyrannie and heresie.

Theoph.

It is easie for you to multiplie woordes: you haue stoare of them as appeareth by your Apologie and defence of English Catholikes which consist of nothing else: but the Popes power to depriue princes,* 3.126 is a matter of more dependence than may bee ouer-ruled with a fewe piked and well couched tearmes. You must therefore exactly and directly prooue the Popes authoritie to depose Prin∣ces (which you shall neuer bee able to doe) or else hee for attempting it is the man of sinne exalting him-selfe in the Church of GOD, and you for defending and executing the same, lacke not many degrees of high and hay∣nous treason.

The carying of this in your owne heartes,* 3.127 and reconciling of others with∣in the realme that they might bee readie to receiue this impression at your mouthes, when tyme should serue, were the very causes why some of your fel∣lowes tasted of her maiesties iust and prouoked indignation: and if it be tyran∣nie for the Prince to put them to death, that lay plottes to haue her crowne, and her life, and write bookes to auouch it lawful for themselues, and all others so to doe, when the Pope sayth the word: then her highnes hath done you some wrong: but if by diuine and humane recordes it bee damnable in the subiect to attempt or abet any such thing: and most laudable in the Prince to reuenge the consenter and encourager as well as the doer: then, for religion hath none of your side beene martyred in England, as your shamelesse eloquence would en∣force, onely some were executed for affirming, publishing, and furdering the Popes Antichristian power to rule realmes and depriue Princes: which you call religion, because you would plant it in the peoples hearts with lesse labour, and more liking, though in deede it be pestilent pride in him, and a plaine con∣tempt of God and the Prince in you that should obey.

Phi.

M. Iohn Slade and M. Iohn Body, two famous confessours,* 3.128 were they not condemned to death in publike iudgement for confessing their fayth of the Popes spiri∣tual soueraigntie, and for denying the Queene to bee head of the Church of England, or to haue any spirituall regiment▪ and that twise at two diuers sessions (a rare case in our countrie) the later sentence being to refourme the former, (as we may gesse in such strange proceedings) which they perceiued to bee erroneous and vnsufficient in their owne Lawes?

Theo.

Promotions are rife at Rome: you would not else so soone aduance two frowarde and rude companions for masters & martyrs. Their iudge∣ment was twise giuen, not, (as you peruersly, yet after your manner, in∣terprete) the later to reforme the former as erroneous and vnsufficient, but for that they complayned they were drawen afore they were ware and against their wils, to vtter speaches against the Princes sworde, for which they were condemned: the grace & mercie of the Prince was such, that her highnesse was content they should bee tried the seconde tyme, (to see whether those words were vnaduisedly and vnwillingly spoken as they pretended, or of set mischiefe & malice) and warned by the Iudge to take good heede, and looke wel about thē

before they rashly offered themselues to the danger of the Lawes. Where, if they fell againe openly and lustily to auouch that the Pope was supreme head of the Church of England, and consequently the Queene had no right to make lawes as shee had doone, but was subiect to the Popes Decrees and censures, which is the maine ground of all your rebellion, and his presumption: who be∣sides you that are yoked in the same cause with them, will say they died for re∣ligion, and not rather for their wilful charging the Prince with vsurpation, & yeelding the Pope that dominion which hee claimeth ouer kingdomes, and you would faine establish with your vntrue surmises?

Phi.

The question of Peters keyes is it not a matter of meere religion?* 3.129

Theo.

If you draw Princes crownes and swordes within the limits of Peters keyes, you leaue religion, and hatch rebellion.

Phi.

Yet is it a question, whereof di∣uines do doubt.

Theo.

You may doubt what you list, to flatter the Pope, but your doubting may not stoppe Princes from defending that which is their owne, against the Popes vniust claime and vnlawfull force. The Prince stri∣ueth not with the Pope neither for the dignitie which hee taketh aboue all Bi∣shoppes, nor for the power which hee seeketh to bind and loose sinnes in heauen, (though therein hee doeth the Church of Christ great wrong and oppresseth his brethren:* 3.130) but onely for her right to commaund and punish within her own Realme in ecclesiasticall causes and crimes, (as well as in temporall, which I haue largely prooued euery Prince may within his owne Dominion) and for the wrong that her maiestie receiued, when shee was depriued of her crowne by him that had no warrant from Christ to disquiet her state or dispose her crown. These bee the pointes comprised in her highnes Lawes. Against these if your rash and ill aduised brethren woulde runne headlong to their owne perdition, when they were admonished by the magistrate to haue better regarde to their wordes; they haue the iust rewarde of their vnfaythfull and disloyall heartes, and my assertion is true that these two ignorant, yet obstinate persons, with some others which came not to any particular mention of the Popes bull a∣gainst the Prince, but generally stoode in defence of that power to be good and lawfull, from whence the bull proceeded, died in the same quarell with the rest that purposely promoted, defended and assisted the bull; and so can bee no wit∣nesses of Christes trueth and glory, which woulde needes cast away their liues for the Popes pride and tyrannie.

Phi.

* 3.131It is hard dealing to make such trifles treasons.

Theo.

Call you those trifles, when Princes shall lose their kingdomes, and their people free∣ly rebell, and you defende the warres of their owne subiects against them to be iust and honourable, by vertue of that power which you attribute to the Pope, when you make him head of the Church? Had you liued in Saint Augustines dayes, you would haue sayde it had beene harder dealing that one word against the Christian Emperours although they were dead shoulde be counted treason.* 3.132 Thou doest promise, sayth Augustine to Petilian, that thou wilt reckon ma∣ny of our Emperours and iudges, WHICH BY PERSECVTING YOV,

PERISHED: and concealing the Emperours thou meanest two Iudges or Deputies. Why didst thou not name the Emperours of our cōmunion? were thou afraid to bee accused as guiltie OF TREASON? where is your courage which feare not to kill your selues? To say that Emperours PERISHED FOR PERSECVTING, was Treason in his tyme: In our age you thinke it much that reproching of Princes as tyrants and heretikes, & ayding the Pope with your perswasions, absolutions, & rebellions to take their crownes from them, should be punished, or adiudged Treason.

Phi.

There is no law so rigorous but your diuinitie wil serue you to defend it.

Theo.

What is against your duetie to God and your Prince, in that I am a diuine, I may iustly debate: what punishment the Prince will appoint for such offences as be committed against her, neither you, nor I haue to doe with it. We may do better to learne obedience, than sawcely to check the magistrate for allotting such penalties as we do not like, yet this I wil say, there is no con∣spiracie so pernicious and dangerous to the State, as that which is secretly crept into the hart vpon a sense of deuotion,* 3.133 and outwardly couered with a shew of religion. If therfore the Prince seuerely reuenge both your pretences in opi∣nion, & practises in execution, absurdly grounded on Peters keyes, and wicked∣ly deriued thence for the remouing of her crowne, defacing of her person, and diminishing of her right, that rigor may wel be defended as comming from iust and lawfull authoritie not without sufficient and euide••t necessitie:* 3.134 neither can you bring ought against it, but onely that you professe it, as a point of your Catholique religion: not of any sinister or direct intention to hurt her maiestie or any other Christian Prince, which is most friuolous & false. For the Popes authoritie, iurisdiction and power, lately claymed by him, and vsurped within this Realme, and since maintained, extolled and defended by you and such your adherents as haue suffered death, to prescribe Lawes as hee list, to commaund Princes, and interdict their Realmes, yea to depriue them of their crownes, absolue their subiects, licence rebellions, and dispence with the murdering of heretikes as you call them,* 3.135 euen of Princes themselues. This authoritie, iuris∣diction and power, we deny to bee any doctrine or doubt of Christian religion, or to bee so much as once spoken or thought of, I say not by the Scriptures (which put no difference betweene the Pope and an other Bishoppe,) but by a∣ny father or Councell for a thousande yeeres in the Church of God. It was the meere deuise and drift of Antichrist to make himselfe mightie, when it was first attempted by Hildebrand, and it is nowe coloured by you with the name of re∣ligion, because you would poyson the people the sooner with that perswasion, & haue somewhat to say for your selues when you be charged with rebellion and disobedience to the temporall magistrate.

Phi.

Your owne masters and leaders,* 3.136 whom I trust you will not condemne for Traytours, haue detested the title of Supreme head of the Church, in princes, as well as wee, the Lutherans flatly controling it in generall, and Caluin himselfe with all the Puritants much misliking and reprehending the first grant therof

to king Henry. Why then put you poore men to death for that which your owne side abhorreth?

Theo.

Your brethren were not put to death, for denying her ma∣iestie to bee supreme head of Christes Church in Englande in causes ecclesiasticall, though * 3.137 one of them for want of trueth or wit, did so report at his end: and you for lacke of better proofe haue brought his owne woordes spoken in fauour and excuse of himselfe, as some worthie witnes. No man is compelled by the lawes of this Realme to confesse any such title in the Prince, much lesse punishable by death for denying it; and therefore your martyr was a Lyer at the houre of his death, and either of malice inuerted, or of ignorance misdeemed the cause for which he dyed.

Phi.

It is all one to bee head of the Church and to bee chiefe Gouernour in causes ecclesiasticall.* 3.138

Theo.

They suffered neither for the one, nor for the other; but for * 3.139 maintaining and defending the iurisdiction and power of the Bishop of Rome heretofore claymed and vsurped in this Realme: which generall in∣cludeth all your erroneous and trayterous assertions of the Popes power ten∣ding no way to religion, but only sauouring of the Popes pride to be ruler and displacer of Princes. And therfore either proue that claime to pertaine to faith, or leaue your vayne presuming, and fond discoursing that a number of your bre∣thren haue beene condemned and executed for meere matter of religion. Though you list to take that for spirituall which is temporall, and cal it religion, which in deede is sedition, yet your idle multiplying of words, and changing of names, doeth not conuince your quarrel to bee righteous, or the Lawes of this Land to bee tyrannous. Shewe that power, iurisdiction and authorit••e, which your holy father hath heretofore claymed and vsed in this realme, to bee consonant to the lawes of God, or church of Christ for a thousand yeres, and wee will yeeld your friends and familiars haue dyed for religion: otherwise you do but face out the matter with fierie words, to keepe deceiued and simple s••ules from suspecting the secrets of your profession.

* 3.140As for supreme head of the church: it is certaine that title was first transfer∣red from the Pope to king Henry the eight by the Bishops of yo••r side, not of ours: & though the pastors in King Edwards time, might not wel dislike, much lesse disswade the stile of the crowne, by reason the king was vnder yeres and so remained vntil he died, yet as soone as it pleased God to place her maiestie in her fathers throne, the Nobles & preachers perceiuing the words, head of the church, (which is Christs proper and peculiar honour,) to be offensiue to many that had vehemently refelled the same in the Pope, besought her highnesse the meaning of that word which her father had vsed might be expressed in some ap∣ter & plainer termes,* 3.141 and so was the Prince called Supreme gouernour of her Realme, that is ruler and bearer of the sworde with lawfull authoritie to com∣mand and punish answerably to the word of God in all spirituall, or ecclesiasti∣call thinges, and causes, as well as in temporall. And no forraine Prince or pre∣late to haue any iurisdiction, superiority, preeminence, or authority, to establish, prohibite, correct, and chastice with publike lawes or temporall paynes, any

crimes or causes ecclesiasticall or spirituall within her Realme. This Caluin and they of Magdeburge neuer misliked: howsoeuer you would seeme to take aduantage of their words.

Phi.

Caluin sayth it is sacrilege and blasphemie. Looke you therefore with what consciences you take that othe,* 3.142 which your owne master so mightily dete∣steth.

Theo.

Nay looke you with what faces you alleage Caluin, who maketh that stile to be sacrilegious and blasphemous as well in the Pope, as in the Prince: Reason therefore, you receiue or refuse his iudgement in both. If it derogate from Christ in the Prince, so doeth it in the Pope; if it doe not in the Pope, as you defend, no more doeth it in the Prince. Yet we graunt the sense of the word supreme, as Caluin conceiued it by Steuen Gardiners answere, and behauiour,* 3.143 is very blasphemous and iniurious to Christ, and his word, whether it bee Prince or Pope that so shall vse it. For by supreme Caluin vnderstoode a power to do what the Prince woulde in all matters of religion without respect to the will, or precepts of God: which is a thing most impious.

Phi.

His woordes are,* 3.144 They were blasphemers in calling him supreme head of the Church vnder Christ.

Theo.

They are so: but that which goeth before & followeth after, sheweth in what sense he tooke the word supreme. At this day, sayth he, where Poperie continueth, howe many are there which lode the king with all the right and power they can, that there should be no disputing of religion, but this authoritie should rest in the king alone, to ap∣point at his pleasure what hee list, and that to stande good without contra∣diction. They that first so highly aduanced king Henry of England, were in∣considerate, they gaue him supreme power of all thinges, and that was it which alway wounded me.* 3.145 Then succeede your wordes; and withall a parti∣cular exemplication howe Steuen Gardiner alleaged and constred the Kings stile in Germanie. That Iuggler, which after was Chauncelour, I meane the Bishop of Winchester, when hee was at Rentzburge, neither would stande to reason the matter nor greatly cared for any testimonies of the scriptures, but said it was at the kinges discretion to abrogate that which was in vse, & ap∣point new. (He said) the king might forbid priests mariage, the king might barre the people from the cup in the Lordes supper, the king might deter∣mine this or that in his kingdome. And why? Forsooth the king had supreme power. This sacrilege hath taken hold on vs (in Germanie) whiles Princes think they cannot raign,* 3.146 except they abolish al the authoritie of the church, & be thēselues supreme Iudges as wel in doctrin, as in al spirituall regiment.

This was the sense, which Caluin affirmed to bee sacrilegious and blas∣phemous, for Princes to professe them-selues supreme Iudges of Doctrine and discipline, and in deede it is the blasphemie which all godly heartes re∣iect and abomine in the Bishoppe of Rome. Neither did King Henry take any such thing on him for ought that wee can learne: But this was Gardiners Stratageme to conuey the reproche and shame of the sixe articles from him∣selfe, and his fellowes that were the authors of them, and to cast it on the

kings supreme power.* 3.147 Had Caluin been told that supreme was first receiued to declare the Prince to be superior to the Prelats (which exempted themselues from the Kings authoritie by their Church liberties and immunities) as well as to the Lay men of this realme, and not to bee subiect to the Pope; who clay∣med a iurisdiction ouer all Princes and Countries: the woorde woulde neuer haue offended him; but as this wylye foxe framed his answere, when the Ger∣manes communed with him about the matter, wee blame not Caluin for mi∣staking, but the Bishop of Winchester for peruerting the kings stile, & wresting it to that sense which all good men abhorre.

Phi.

Do not you at this day make the Queene supreme Gouernour of al ec∣clesiasticall doctrine and discipline? And what discrepance I pray you between Iudge and Gouernour?

Theo.

You may be Steuen Gardiners scholer, you bee so wel trained in his methode, and maximes. Wee told you long since and often enough, if that will serue, the prince by her stile doth not chalenge, neither do we by our othe giue her highnes power, to debate, decide, or determine any point of fayth or matter of religion, much lesse to bee supreme iudge or gouernour of all doctrine and discipline: But if in her realme, you will haue the assistance of the magistrates swoord to settle the trueth,* 3.148 and prohibite error, and by wholesome punishments to preuent the disorders of all degrees, that authoritie lieth nei∣ther in Prelate nor Pope, but onely in the Prince: and therefore in her Domi∣nions you can neither establish doctrine nor discipline by publike Lawes with∣out her consent. This neither Caluin, nor the compilers of the Centuries, nor a∣ny other of sound religion euer did, or iustly can mislike: onely, Iesuites & their adherents would faine reserue this power to the Pope in al Christian realmes, because they be sure he will allowe and suffer no religion but his owne: and so long their profession shall not miscarie.

Phi.

The Centurists say: Princes may not bee heads of the Church, that primacie is not fit for them.

Theo.

That word if they mislike, wee stand not for it. The holy Ghost hath inuested the sonne of God with it, and therefore rea∣son princes euen for reuerence to him should forbeare the stile which hee first v∣sed, & most esteemeth. And though some defence might be brought for the word, as that which Samuel said to Saul,a 3.149 When thou wast litle in thine own sight, wast thou not made HEAD of the tribes of Israel? For the Lorde annoynted thee king ouer Israel: and that which Dauid sayth of himself,b 3.150Thou hast made me HEAD of the heathen: and that which Esai saith of the king of Syria, c 3.151THE HEAD of Aram is Damascus, and the HEAD of Damascus, is Rezni: and again, d 3.152the honorable mā he is the HEAD; as also S. Paul:e 3.153 the man is the womans HEAD: & Chrysostom not sticking to call certaine women that laboured in the Gospel,f 3.154HEAD OF THE CHVRCH at Philippi: and saying of Theodosius the Emperor, g 3.155Summitas & caput omnium super terram hominum, SVPREME AND HEAD of all mortall men: Though these and many like places might bee brought to auouche the worde, HEAD; yet because that title, HEAD OF THE CHVRCH, rightly and properly belongeth onely to Christ, & not to Princes

without many mitigations and cautions:* 3.156 and head as it is applied to Prin∣ces is al one with Supreme, for it importeth but the chiefest or highest person of the Church on earth: and with the regiment of the Church whereof Christ is head, I meane his mysticall bodie, Princes haue nothing to doe, yea many times they be scant members of it: and the Church in each countrie may stand without Princes as in persecution it doth, and yet they not headlesse; we thinke not good to contend with our brethren for wordes, and to greeue their eares with titles first abused by the pope, and first reproued in him, so long as in mat∣ter and meaning there is no discord betwixt vs.

Phi.

Will you make vs beleeue, they mislike nothing but the wordes head of the Church?

Theo.

Yeas they mislike, that Princes should mingle trueth with falsehood, and temper religion with corruption as their priuate fancies lead them, which we mislike no lesse than they. This is the scope (of our speach) say they, that it is not lawful for ciuill Magistrates to deuise formes of reli∣gion in destruction of the truth:* 3.157 and so to reconcile truth and error that they may both be lulled asleepe. They may not prescribe religions alone, they must not ingender new articles of the faith; they must not strangle the trueth with errors, and shackle it when it is reueiled, that they may let loose the bridle to corruption. These be the points which they dislike, and we be as farre from approuing any such thing in Princes, as you or they.

Phi.

If the Prince establish any religion,* 3.158 whatsoeuer it be, you must by your oth obey it.

Theo.

We must not rebel and take armes against the prince, as you affirme, you may: but with reuerence and humilitie serue God before the Prince, and that is nothing against our oth.

Phi.

Then is not the Prince supreme.

Theo.

Why so?

Phi.

Your selues are superiour, when you will serue whom you list.

Theo.

As though to serue God according to his will were to serue whom we list, and not whom Princes and all others ought to serue.

Phi.

But you will be iudges, when God is well serued and when not.

Theo.

If you can excuse vs before God, when you mislead vs, we wil serue him, as you shall appoint vs:* 3.159 otherwise if euerie man shal answere for himselfe, good reason he be master of his owne conscience in that which toucheth him so neere, and no man shall excuse him for.

Phi.

This is to make euery priuate man supreme iudge of religion.

Theo.

The poorest wretch that is may be supreme Gouer∣nour of his owne hart: Princes rule the publike and external actions of their Countries, but not the consciences of men: and therefure this thwartling is to no purpose.

Phi.

By what authoritie then in the first Parliament of the Queenes highnesse raigne,* 3.160 was the determination, decision and definition of truethes or of heresies and errors; of the true worship of God and the false, attributed to that Court of the states no lesse or rather more than to the foure first or any other general Councel: to which the deciding of such things is there granted with this limitation, so far as they can warrant their doings by the expresse wordes of Canonical Scriptures, and no farther: but to the Parliament absolutely, decreeing at the same time, that nothing there

determined should be counted heresie, errour or schisme, what order, decree, sentence, constitution, or law so euer were to the contrarie, the holy Scriptures themselues not excepted.

Theo.

* 3.161It is no wonder to see you quarel with the court of the Sates, that are so busie with the Princes Crowne. And therein, as in the former, your beha∣uiour doth not change. For entring with a manifest vntrueth, and keeping on a course of emptie and haughtie wordes, which is your glorie, you tell vs at length with pride enough, that our Lawes be strange and vnnatural dealings, proceedings dishonourable to her MAIESTIE and the Realme,* 3.162 against Gods expresse commaundement lymiting his constant and permanent trueth, to mortall mens willes and fancies, violent disorders, which to all our posteritie must needes breede shame and rebuke, vniust, and therefore bind not in conscience; repugnant to the dignitie and priuiledges of the Church, against the oth of the makers, and in deed no Lawes at all, the makers lacking competent power, authoritie and iurisdiction to proceed iudicially and authentically to heare, determine and define 〈◊〉〈◊〉 giue sentence in any such things as be meere ecclesiasticall, with a number of those bold and state∣ly bragges, hauing neither proofe of your part, nor reproofe of ours, but only pretending certain legalities, quiddities & solemnities of humane iudgements, which in Gods cause be very ridiculous, and in matters of faith more than su∣perfluous.* 3.163 For God will not haue his trueth depend either on the numbers or qualities of persons; and when his word is offered, we may not stand stagge∣ring till the Pope and his Cardinals please to assemble, and there iudicially and authentically heare and determine what they thinke good, which I winne they wil neuer against themselues.

* 3.164Christ sent not iudges with iudicial processe, but a few disciples with the sound of their voices to conuert the world; the Prophetes that taught the peo∣ple of God, and reproued both Priests and Princes, vsed no legall nor authen∣ticall proceedings, but a bare proposing the will of God to such as woulde be∣leeue. The Kings and Princes before Christ that subuerted Idols and re∣fourmed religion in their realmes relyed on their Princely Power and zeale, for the doing of that seruice, and not on the ceremoniall and sententiall acts and decrees of Priests or Prophets. The Christian Princes, take which you will, that first receiued and after restored the faith in their Empires and kingdomes, tied not them selues to the voices and suffrages of the Clergie that were in present possession of their Churches: but often times remoued them without Councel or common consultation. You may do well to correct S. Paul, where he saith,* 3.165 faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God: and to adde, faith commeth by a 3.166 iudiciall cognition, andb 3.167 competent iurisdiction of such as haue c 3.168 legall meanes to deliberate and pronounce of God and his trueth.

Phi.

Would you haue such disorder and confusion suffered in the Church, that euery man should follow what he list?* 3.169

Theo.

I would not haue such pre∣sumption or wickednesse brought into the Church, that Christ, or his worde should be subiected to the wils or voices of mortall men: for though the whole

world pronounce against him, or it, God wil be true and all men shall be liars.

Phi.

No more would wee.

Theo.

Why then restraine you trueth to the as∣semblees and sentences of Popes and Prelats, as though they must bee gently entreated and fayrely offered by Christ, before he might attempt or shoulde ex∣pect to recouer his owne.

Phi.

Wee would haue things done orderly.

Theo.

Call you that order, where Christ shall stand without doores till your Clergie consent t•• bring him in?

Phi.

God is not (the author) of confusion but of peace.* 3.170

Theo.

It is no confusion for one familie, yea for one man to serue God though all the families and men of the same realme besides will not. Ioshua sayd to the whole people: a 3.171If it seeme euill vnto you to serue the Lorde, choose you this day whome you will serue, but I and myne house will serue the Lorde. Elias was b 3.172 left a∣lone for any that he sawe willing to serue God in Israel, and yet that abated not his zeale. Micheas alone c 3.173 opposed him-selfe against foure hundreth Pro∣phetes, with what iudiciall authoritie can you tell? Ieremie assured the Priests and Prophetes of Ierusalem that God would d 3.174 forsake them; and that hee did without any legall meanes that wee can read. Amos spared neither e 3.175 Ieroboam the King, nor Amaziah the Priest, and yet he was but a simple heardman, and not so much as the sonne of a Prophet. Iohn Baptist had no competent iuris∣diction ouer the Scribes and Pharisees that sate in Moses chayre, and yet hee condemned them for f 3.176a generation of vipers. The Councels where g 3.177 Peter, h 3.178Steuen, i 3.179Paul, and other of the Disciples were conuented, accused and puni∣shed, lacked none of your iudiciall formalities, and solemnities, and yet the A∣postles stoutly resisted and vtterly contemned both their deliberatiue, and their definitiue sentences.

In deede your forefathers assaulted our Sauiour him-selfe with that very question;* 3.180 as also they did Iohn before him, and the Apostles after him. When the Lord was teaching in the temple, the chiefe Priestes and the elders of the people came vnto him and sayde,* 3.181 by what authoritie doest thou these thinges? and who gaue thee this authoritie? When Iohn began to baptize, * 3.182the Iewes sent priestes and Leuites from Ierusalem to aske him, WHO ART THOV? And when hee denyed him-selfe to bee either Elias, or the Prophete that was looked for, they inferred,* 3.183Why Baptizest thou then, if thou bee neither Christ, nor Elias, nor the Prophete? And euen so they asked the Apostles,* 3.184 by what power, or in what name haue you done this?

Philand.

The Apostles commission wee knowe, but yours wee know not.* 3.185

Theo.

You can not bee ignorant of ours, if you knowe theirs. So long as wee teache the same Doctrine which they did, wee haue the same power and authoritie to preach, which they had. Keepe your competent iurisdictions, iudici∣all cognitions and legal decisions, to your selfe; the sonne of GOD first foun∣ded and still gathereth his church by the mouthes of Preachers, not by the summons of Consistories: and hee that is sent to preach may not holde his tongue and tarie, til my Lorde the Pope, and his mytred fathers can intende

to meete, and list to consent, to the ruine as they thinke, of their dignities and liberties.

Phi.

Despise you Councels?

Theo.

By no meanes, so long as they bee Councels, that is sober and free conferences of learned and godly teachers: but if they waxe wanton against Christ, and will not haue trueth receiued, vntil they haue consented, wee reiect them as conspiracies of the wicked, which no Christian ought to reuerence.

Phi.

* 3.186Had you trueth on your side you sayd somewhat, but you h••ue it not.

Theo.

Then should that be the question betwixt vs: & not whether the Prince might make Lawes for Christ without your consents, or whether the Realme had competent power and authoritie to debate and determine without a Coun∣cell what religion they woulde professe. For though the Prince and the realme haue doone nothing herein, that Gods and mans Lawe doth not warrant, yet may wee not suffer you to stande on these quirks to delude God and his t••ueth:* 3.187 against the which, as Tertullian sayth, no man may prescribe, not space of tymes, not patronage of persons, not priuilege of places. He therefore that defendeth trueth,* 3.188 is armed with authoritie sufficient though all the world were against him, as it was against Noah, when GOD saued him and drowned them, for a monument of his iustice, to quaile the route, and paire the pride of such as after shoulde resist the meanest seruaunt that hee woulde sende.

Phi.

Still you ground your selues, as if you had the trueth.

Theo.

If we haue,* 3.189 the poorest Preacher in this Realme, hath lawfull power enough to pronounce the Pope and all his Cardinals to be heretikes: and therefore whe∣ther we haue or no must be the question.

Phi.

Wee say you haue not: and yet if you had, your proceedings in it are disorderly.

Theoph.

You must shew vs some reason.

Phi.

The Prince and Court of Parliament hath no more lawfull meanes to giue order to the Church and Clergie in these things, than they haue to make Lawes for the hierarches of Angels in heauen.* 3.190

Theo.

Will you suffer God himselfe to make Lawes for his Church?

Phi.

What else?

Theo.

And may not euery pri∣uate man for his owne person embrace those Lawes,* 3.191 which God hath made, whosoeuer say nay?

Phi.

Hee must.

Theo.

May not the Prince and the peo∣ple doe the like?

Phi.

They may no doubt embrace the Lawes of God.

Theo.

What if some Bishoppes will not agree they shall? must the Prince and the people cease to serue God till the Clergie bee better mynded?

Phi.

That is odiously spoken.

Theo.

But truely. The case betweene the Clergie and the Laytie in the first Parliament of her Maiesties raigne, was whether God shoulde bee serued according to his woorde, or according to the deuises and abuses of the Romish Church.* 3.192 The prince, as also the Nobles and cōmons submitted their consents to the word of God: the Bishops refused. The foundation of all the Lawes of our Countrie being this, that what the Prince and the most part of her Barons and Burgesses shall confirme, that shall stande for good, there was no disorder nor violence offered in that Parliament,

as you lewdly complaine, but that to publike protection which the Prince and most part had agreed on.

Phi.

In matters of faith the Prince and the laie Lords had no voices.

Theo.

In making lawes they had.

Phi.

True, but lawes for religion they might not prescribe.

Theo.

No more might Bishops: It is only Gods office to appoint how he wil be serued.

Phi.

Gods wil must be learned at the mouthes of Bishops.

Theo.

They must teach, leauing alwayes this libertie to the Prince and people, to examine their doctrine, and auoide their errours; and if they teach not truth, the Prince and people may repell them, as the Parliament did which you speake of.

Phi.

The decision of truth or heresie pertained not to that Court.* 3.193

Theo.

They tooke it not vpon them.

Phi.

Yeas. The determination, decision and definition of truthes and errours,* 3.194 of the true worshippe of God and the false is attributed to that Court no lesse or rather more than to the foure first, or any other generall councell.

Theo.

The simple Rustikes of our Countrie doe not so grossely conceiue of their actes and decrees as you doe that woulde seeme great maisters in Israell. For who knoweth not, that in diuers realms haue beene diuerse positiue lawes, and in this kingdome within our age cleane contrary Parliamentes? No man is therefore so foolish as to thinke it, neither is any besides you so malicious as to report it, that the temporall States of this Realme tooke vpon them the absolute deciding of truthes and errours aboue the four first generall Councels,* 3.195 yea the holy scriptures themselues not excepted.

Phi.

What did they then?

Theo.

They submitted themselues and the publike state of this Realme, to the word of God, which by law they might, as well as the same Court six yeares before in the first of Queene Mary subiected this Realme to the Popes decrees and fansies.

Phi.

The Parliament of Queene Marie can not be misliked for admitting the faith of their fathers.

Theo.

Much lesse can the Parliament of Queene E∣lizabeth be reproued for receiuing the faith of Christ.

Phi.

The faith of Christ is in question: the faith of our fathers is not.

Theo.

The faith of Christ we bee bound to keepe,* 3.196 the faith of our fathers we be not.

Phi.

Keeping the faith of our fathers we can not misse the faith of Christ.

Theo.

What priuilege had our fa∣thers more than we that they could not erre?

Phi.

Aske thy father, saith Moses, and he will shew thee; thine elders, and they will tell thee.

Theo.

Shall not we be fathers to our posteritie, as well as our ancestors were to vs?

Phil.

Yeas.

Theo.

Then must our children aske of vs, as we must of those that were before vs. If therefore we may erre, why might not our fathers as well erre in their generations before vs?

Phi.

They kept the steppes of their fathers,* 3.197 which if you doe, you shall not erre.

Theo.

This is the next way round about to come to the wood. For how will you proue that euery generation which hath beene these 1500. yeares since Christ, hath precisely kept the rules and limites of their forefathers?

Phi.

You can not shew when or where they swarued.

Theo.

If wee could not, our igno∣rance in that point, is no great securitie for your faith. The defection of euerie

age from their fathers might be either not marked, or not recorded, or since oblitered; and therefore reason you proue your faith to haue descended from age to age without alteration, before we beleeue it to be the faith of your fathers.

* 3.198But what meaneth this that you prescribe that way to iudge of religion and the seruice of God, which God himselfe prohibiteth?

Phi.

Doth God forbid vs to follow our fathers?

Theo.

In as plaine wordes as can be spoken with a tongue: by the mouth of Ezechiel he saith, Walke ye not in the preceptes of your fathers,* 3.199 neither obserue their manners, nor defile your selues with their idols. I am the Lord your God, walke in my statutes, and keepe my iudgementes.* 3.200 By Dauid he saith, Let them not be as their fathers were, a disobedient and rebellious generation: a generation that set not their heart aright, & whose spirit was not faithful vnto God. And dehorting them from their fathers steps:* 3.201 To day, saith Dauid, if you wil heare (Gods) voice, harden not your harts, as in the day of cōtention, & as in the day of temptation in the wildernes, where your fathers tempted & proued me though they had seen my workes. Fourtie yeares did I contend with that generation, and saide, they are a people that erre in heart, they haue not knowen my wayes. By Zacharie he saith,* 3.202 Be ye not, as your fathers, vnto whome the former Pro∣phetes haue cried saying, Thus saith the Lord of host••••, turne you now from your euill waies and from your wicked workes, but they would not heare nor harken vnto me saith the Lord. And what you count deuotion & humilitie for the people to follow their fathers, that God himself calleth defection & con∣spiracie.* 3.203 I haue protested vnto your fathers, euer since I brought them out of the land of Aegypt to this day, saying, obey my voice. Neuertheles they wold not obey, nor incline their eare, but euerie one walked in the stubbernesse of his wicked heart. And of the children doing as their fathers did he saith, A cō∣spiracie is found among the men of Iudah and among the inhabitants of Ie∣rusalem.* 3.204 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers that refu∣sed to heare my wordes. With what face then can you deale so earnestly with the simple subiectes of this Land, to regard neither God nor his word, but only to runne the race of their Elders, seeing God so straitly commaunded the chil∣dren of Israel to beware the pathes and presidentes of their forefathers?

Phi.

We must beware their wickednesse.

Theo.

Then may they be wicked and so no paterns for vs or any others to follow.* 3.205

Phi.

The Iewes were wic∣ked.

Theo.

What charter can you shew, that christians shall not be the like?

Phi.

Hell gates shall not preuaile against the church of Christ.

Theo.

No more did they preuaile against the chosen and elect of Israel: but the greatest number and gaiest men are not alwaies the church of God.* 3.206 The foundation of God standeth sure, and hath this zeale, the Lord knoweth who are his. Of his elect which are his true church our Sauiour hath pronounced it is not possible they * 3.207 should bee deceiued: the rest haue no such priuilege; yea rather the ho∣ly Ghost forewarneth that all besides the elect shall bee deceiued.* 3.208 Our Saui∣our

our saith, * 3.209There shal arise false Christes and false Prophetes, and shal shew great signes and wonders, so that, if it were possible, they should deceiue the verie elect. The rest then, which are not elect, they shall deceiue. And so S. Paul speaking of the verie same deceiuers,* 3.210 addeth, whose comming is by the working of Satan with all power, and in all deceiueablenesse of vnrigh∣teousnesse among them that perish, because they receiued not the law of the truth, that they might be saued. And therefore God shall sende them strong delusion, that they should beleeue lies, that al they might be damned, which beleeued not the truth, but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse. And S. Iohn speaking of the beast that made warre with the Saintes & had power ouer euerie kindred,* 3.211 and tongue, and nation, saith, Therefore all that dwell vpon the earth, shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life. So that the visible church, consisting of good & bad, elect and reprobate, hath no such promise, but she may erre: only the chosen of Christ which are the true members of his body,* 3.212 properly called his church, they shall not erre vnto perdition: and those if you could point them out with your finger, the people might safely follow: otherwise if you set men to follow the rest of their fathers, be they neuer so many, neuer so graue, neuer so godly to your seeming: you bid them take the wide gate and broade way that leadeth to destruction,* 3.213 be∣cause there were many that entered it before them.

Phi.

Will you make vs beleeue that our fathers are perished?* 3.214

Theo.

Who are perished, is not for vs to pronounce. They were his seruants that iudgeth iustly: neither haue we to medle with their doome, but to looke to our owne: yet this we can assure you,* 3.215 that many be called and few chosen, And there∣fore if you aduise the people to imitate the multitude of their fathers, you teach them the right way to hell. And though wee may not iudge of your fa∣thers, yet knowe you for a certainty that God is not afraide to iudge them and condemne them, if they refused his truth, as you do.

Neither is it any such daungerous doctrine to say that our forefathers haue sinned and displeased God,* 3.216 as you woulde make it: the godly haue alwaies confessed it of their fathers: and not spared to tell the wicked so much to their fates. Dauid slandered not his forefathers when he said:* 3.217 We haue sinned with our fathers, we haue done wickedly. Our fathers vnderstood not thy won∣ders in Aegypt, neither remembred they the multitude of thy mercies, but rebelled at the Sea, euen at the red Sea. Daniell knewe what he pronounced when hee confessed:* 3.218 O Lord to vs (belongeth) open shame, to our kinges, to our Princes, and to our fathers, because wee haue sinned against thee. Ezechiah was not ashamed to say:* 3.219 Our fathers haue trespassed and done e∣uill in the eyes of the Lord our God, and haue forsaken him, and turned their backes. And loe, our fathers are fallen by the sword. Iohn told the Pharisees to their faces, their fathers were vipers, and them-selues vene∣mous, in saying,* 3.220 'Ye vipers brood; and Steuen ful of the holy Ghost rated the Iewes on this wise,* 3.221 Ye stifnecked and of vncircumcised harts and eares, yee

haue alwaies resisted the holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so doe you. It is therefore a straunge course that you take to make the people disobey God to fol∣low their fathers: and a stranger, that you freely permit all kinde of Infidelity and tyranny to your selues vnder the names of your fathers, as if the men that were before you could neither erre, nor shed innocent blood.

Phi.

What they could, we dispute not: wee say they did not.

Theo.

That must be proued, before you may propose their actes for your imitation. Their doings may bee doubted & disliked as well as yours, & so the labor is all one to iustifie theirs and yours.* 3.222 Times and persons do not preiudice the truth of God. It is permanent in all ages, & eminent aboue all things. If your fathers dis∣dained and pursued the truth as you doe, they were enimies to God as you are, notwithstāding their earthly dignities and other excellencies, which may seem precious in your eies, but are abominable in the sight of God, when men are voide of truth.

Phi.

We are not.

Theo.

Leaue then your fathers and other idle fansies, & go directly to that question. For if her Maiestie receiued & established nothing but the truth of Christ in her Parliament,* 3.223 in vaine do you barke against God and the Magistrate, for lacke of competent Courts, ecclesiasticall iudges, and legal meanes to debate and decide matters of religion. When God commaundeth, all humane barres and Lawes do cease. If they ioyne with God, they may bee v∣sed: if they impugne the trueth, they must be despised.

And yet in our case the scepter vnited and adioyned it selfe to the worde of God: and therefore if Princes may commaund for truth in their owne domini∣ons, as I haue largely proued they may: why should not the Prince hauing the full consent of her Nobles and Commons restoare and settle the truth of God within her Realme?

Phi.

Lay men may not pronounce of faith.

Theo.

But lay men may choose what faith they will professe,* 3.224 and Princes may dis∣pose of their kingdoms, though Priests and Bishops would say nay.

Phi.

Religion they may not dispose without a Councell.

Theo.

Not if God commaund?

Phi.

Howe shall they know what God commaundeth vnlesse they haue a councell?

Theo.

This is childish wrangling. I aske, if God command whether the Prince shall refuse to obey till the clergie confirme the same?

Phi.

You may be sure a wise and sober Clergie wil not dissent from Gods precepts.

Theo.

What they will doe, is out of our matter: but in case they doe; to which shall the Prince hearken, to God or those that beare themselues for Priestes?

Phi.

In case they do so, you neede not doubt, but God must be regarded, and not men.

Theo.

And hath the Prince sufficient authoritie to put that in ••••e which God commaundeth,* 3.225 though the Priests continue their wilfulnes?

Phi.

There is no councell nor consent of men good against God.

Theo.

Holde you there. Then when christian Princes are instructed and resolued by learned and faithfull teachers what God requireth at their hands, what neede they care for the backward dispositiō of such false Prophets as are turned from the truth and preach lies?

Phi.

In England when her Maiestie came to the Crowne, it was not so. The Bishops that dissented, were graue, vertuous and honorable Pastours, stan∣ding in defence of the catholike and auncient faith of their fathers.

Theo.

You say so: we say no.

Phi.

Those be but wordes.

Theo.

You say very right; and therefore the more to blame you, that in both your bookes do plaie on that string with your Rhetoricall and Thrasonicall fluence,* 3.226 and neuer enter any point or proo••e, that may profit your Reader. You presume your selues to haue such ap∣parent right and rule ouer the faith, ouer the church, ouer christian Princes & Realmes, that without your consent they shall neither conclude, nor consult what religion they will professe: Their actes shall be disorders, their lawes in∣iuries, their correction tyranny, if you mislike them. This dominion and iuris∣diction ouer all kingdoms and countries, if your holy father and you may haue for the speaking, you were not wise if you would not claime it; but before we be∣leeue you, you must bring some better ground of your title than such magnifical and maiesticall florishes.* 3.227

The Prince and the Parliament, you say, had no power to determine or de∣liberate of those matters. And why so? You did dissent. May not the Prince commaund for truth within her Realme, except your consentes be first required and had? May not her highnesse serue Christ in making Lawes for Christ, without your liking?

Claime you that interest and prerogatiue, that without you nothing shal be done in matters of religiō, by the lawes of God,* 3.228 or by the liberties of this realm? By the lawes of the Land you haue no such priuilege. Parliamentes haue bin kept by the king and his Barons, the clergie wholy excluded, and yet their actes and statutes good. And when the Bishops were present, their voices frō the conquest to this day were neuer negatiue. By Gody law, you haue nothing to do with making lawes for kingdoms and commonwealthes. You may teach, you may not command: Perswasion is your part, compulsion is the Princes. If Princes imbrace the truth, you must obey them: If they pursue truth, you must abide them. By what authority then claime you this dominion ouer Princes, that their lawes for religion shalbe voide vnlesse you consent?

Phi.

They be no iudges of faith.

Theo.

No more are you. It is lawfull for any Christian to reiect your doctrine, if he perceiue it to be false, though you teach it in your churches and pronounce it in your councels, to be neuer so true.

Phi.

That proueth not euery priuat mans opinion to be true.

The.

Nor yet to be false; the greater number is not euer a sure warrant for truth. And Iudges of faith, though Princes be not, yet are they maintainers, establishers and vphol∣ders of faith with publike power, & positiue lawes, which is the pointe you now withstand.

Phi.

That they may doe when a councell is precedent to guide them.

Theo.

What councell had Asa the king of Iudah when * 3.229 hee commaunded his people to doe according to the law, and the commaundement, and made * 3.230 a couenant that whosoeuer would not seeke the Lord God of Israell should be

••laine?

Phi.

He had * 3.231 Azariah the Prophet.

Theo.

One man is no Councel; and he did but encourage and commend the King, and that long after he had established religion in his realme.

What Councel had Ezechiah to lead him when he restored the true worship of God throughout his land,* 3.232 and was faine to send for the Priestes and Leuites and to put them in minde of their duties?

What councell had Iosiah, when ten yeares after his comming to the crown he was forced to send for direction to Huldath the Prophetesse,* 3.233 not finding a man in Iudah that did, or could vndertake the charge?

Phi.

These were kinges of the olde Testament: and they had the Lawe of God to guide them.

Theo.

Then since christian Princes haue the same Scri∣ptures which they had,* 3.234 and also the Gospell of Christ and Apostolike writings to guide them, which they had not, why should they not in their kingdomes re∣taine the same power, which you see the kings of Iudah had & vsed to their im∣mortall praise and ioy?

Phi.

* 3.235The christian Emperours euer called Councels, before they would at∣tempt any thing in Ecclesiasticall matters.

Theo.

What councell had Con∣stantine, when with his Princely power he publikely receiued and setled chri∣stian religion throughout the world, * 3.236 twentie yeares before the fathers met at Nice? What councels had Iustinian for all those ecclesiasticall constitutions and orders, which he decreed and I haue often repeated? What councels had Charles for the church lawes and chapters which he proposed and inioyned as wel to the Pastors as to the people of his Empire?

Phil.

They had instruction by some godly Bishops that were about them.

Theo.

Conference with some Bishops, su••h as they liked, they might haue: but councels for these causes they had none.

In 480. yeares after christian religion was established by christian Lawes, I meane from Constantine the first, to Constantine the seuenth, there were very neere fourtie christian Emperours, whose Lawes and actes for ecclesiasti∣call affaires were infinite:* 3.237 and yet in all that time they neuer called but sixe ge∣nerall Councels, and those for the Godhead of the Sonne and the holy Ghost, & for the two distinct natures and willes in Christ: All other pointes of christian doctrine and discipline they receiued, established and maintained without ecu∣menicall councels, vpon the priuate instruction of such Bishops and Clerkes as they fauored or trusted.

* 3.238Theodosius, as I shewed before, made his owne choice what faith he would follow, and had no man, nor meanes to direct him vnto truth, but his own pray∣ers vnto God, and priuate reading of those sundry confessions that were offered him. And when neither Bishops nor Councels could get him to remoue the A∣rians from their churches, Amphilochius alone with his witty behauior, & aun∣swere wan him to it. For entering the Palace, and finding Arcadius the eldest sonne of Theodosius lately designed Emperor and sitting with his father, Am∣philochius did his dutie to the father and made no account of his son that sate by

him. Theodosius thinking the Bishop had forgotten himselfe, willed him to salute his sonne: to whom the Bishoppe replied, that which he had done to the father was sufficient for both. Whereat when the Emperour began to rage, & to con••••er the contempt of his sonne for his dishonour, the wise Bishoppe infer∣red wi••h a loude voice, Art thou so grieued, O Emperour, to see thy sonne neglected, and so much out of pacience with those that reproach him? As∣sure thy selfe then that almighty God hateth the blasphemers of his Sonne, and is offended with them as with vngratefull wretches against their Saui∣our and deliuerer.

Had you beene in the primatiue church of Christ you woulde haue gallantly disdained these and other examples of christian kings and Countries conuerted & instructed somtimes by Marchaunts,* 3.239 sometimes by women, most times by the single perswasiō of one man without al legal means or iudicial proceedings: the poore soules of very zeale imbracing the word of life whē it was first offered them, and neglecting your number of voices, consent of Priestes, & competent courts, as friuolous exceptiōs against God, & dangerous lets to their saluation.

Frumentius a christian child, taken prisoner in India the farther, and brought at length by Gods good prouidence to beare some sway in the Realme in the no∣nage of the king, * 3.240 carefully sought for such as were christians among the Ro∣mane Merchants, and gaue them * 3.241 most free power to haue assemblies in eue∣ry place yeelding them whatsoeuer was requisite, and exhorting * 3.242 them in sundry places to vse the christian praiers. And within short time he built a Church & brought it to passe that some of the Indians were instructed in the faith, and ioyned with them.

The king of Iberia neere Pontus, when he saw his wife restoared to health by the prayers of a christian captiue, and himselfe deliuered out of the suddaine danger that he was in, only by thinking and calling on Christ, whom the captiue woman named so often to his wife, sent for the woman, and desired to learne the manner of her religion, and promised after that neuer to worship any o∣ther God but Christ. The captiue woman taught him as much as a woman might: & admonished him to build a church and described the forme (how it must be done). Whereupon the * 3.243 king calling the people of the whole na∣tion together told them what had befallen the Queene and him, and taught them the faith, and became as it were the Apostle of his nation, though hee were not yet baptized.

The examples of England, France & other coūtries, are innumerable, where kings & cōmonwealths at the preaching of one man, haue submitted themselues to the faith of Christ, without councels or any Synodal or iudicial proceedings. And therefore ech Prince & people without these meanes haue lawful power to serue God & Christ his Son, notwithstanding twentie Bishops, as in our case: or if you will,* 3.244 twentie thowsand Bishops, should take exceptious to the Gospell of truth, which is nothing else but to waxe mad against God, by pretence of hu∣mane reason and order.

Phi.

Their examples and yours are not like. They receiued the same faith that the church of Christ professed,* 3.245 you doe not.

Theo.

They know not what the church of christ ment, when they submitted themselues to the faith of Chri••••; they respected not the countenaunces of men, but the promises of God when they first beleeued. And were you not so wedded to the Popes tribunals & de∣crees that you thinke the God of heauen shoulde not preuaile nor commaunde without your allowance, you would remember that the church her sel•• was first collected and after increased by Christes Apostles, maugre the councelles of Priestes and Courtes of Princes that derided the basenesse, and accused the boldnesse of such as would preach Christ without their permission.

Phi.

The A∣postles had a iust and lawfull defence for their doinges.* 3.246

Theo.

What was it?* 3.247

Phi.

We ought rather to obey God than men.

Theo.

Was that authori∣tie sufficient for them to withstand the Synodes of Priestes and swordes of Princes?

Phi.

Most sufficient.

Theo.

And the truth of God chaungeth not, neither doth his right to commaund against the powers and lawes of al mortal men decay at any time.

Phi.

By no means.

Theo.

Then this must only be the question betwixt vs, whether the Prince or the Prelates stoode for that which God commaundeth. If the Prince tooke part with God, then your clergy were but Antichristes Atturnies, and all your Apologies, Defences, Replications and Demonstrations are but prophane brables and quarels, such as Iulian or Porphyrie might and did obiect against Christ, for that his faith came first into the worlde, by the disordered rashnesse, as they thought, and tumultuous headinesse of the common people; euen as the Iewes also disdained Christ him∣selfe, and said of his followers; Doth any of the Rulers or of the Pharisees be∣leeue in him? but this people, that know not the law, are cursed. If your Bishops held the faith, then had you wrong before God, but no violence before men sith euerie Realme may dispose them-selues, their Landes, and liuinges, as they see cause, and make choice of their religion and teachers, though they take not vpon them to decide and define which is truth and which errour, as you falsly and scornefully report.

Phi.

Thy make it treason to call their proceedinges heresie.

Theo.

To call the Prince tyrant or heretike, is no point of Religion, but plaine rayling on powers,* 3.248 which all christians are prohibited: That law represseth the filthines of your tongues, it forceth not the perswasions of your hearts, it is no decision of heresie, but a prohibition of cursed and intemperate speech▪ which of duty you should forbeare, and the Prince may iustly punish.

Phi.

Shall it be death for a man to speake what he thinketh?

Theo.

If the speach be slaunderous or op∣probrious, why should it not?* 3.249 He that curseth his father or mother, shal dy the death by the law of God: and the selfe same reuerence is due to the magistrat, * 3.250 thou shalt not raile vppon the iudge, nor * 3.251 speake euill of the ruler of the people: yea saith Salomon* 3.252 Curse not the king, no not in thy thought: and though Dauid himself in respect of his oth spared Shimei that railed on him, yet he charged Salomon his sonne to giue him •••• his deserts.* 3.253 Thou shalt not count

him innocent, for thou art wise, and knowest what thou oughtest to do vnto him, therefore thou shalt cause his hoare head to goe downe to the graue with * 3.254 blood. Therefore you must either leaue railing with Shimei, or not thinke it much to suffer at Salomons handes as Shimei did.

Phi.

The Princes person we will spare, but that shal neuer driue vs to think well of your proceedinges.

Theo.

If this Realme haue receiued or established any other faith than that which Christ commaunded, the Apostles preached, the catholike church imbraced, then let all our proceedings bee violent, disordered and reprochfull: but if we haue not, then looke to your selues. For the Prince and the Parliament had Gods and mans authoritie to do as they did.

Phi.

If, doth not hurt vs: our faith is catholik.

Theo.

No one point of your faith which we reiect, is catholike: And the reformation which is now setled, by the lawes of this Realme in matters of religion, is warranted by the word of God, and auncient iudgement of Christes church.

Phi.

Nay our faith is grounded on the sacred Scriptures & the generall consent of the catholike church.

Theo.

Proue that and we require no more.

Phi.

Will that content you?

Theo.

Yea veri∣ly. But you were best, beginning a fresh matter, to spit in your hand and take better hold than heretofore you haue done.

Phi.

My handfast is so sure that you shall not shake it off.

Theo.

Your heart serueth you, what soeuer your handfast doth. Proceeding with the next part wee shall see how sure you holde.

The end of the third part.

Notes

• * 1.1

  2. Timoth. 3. Ierem. 26. Preachers may reproue Princes.
• * 1.2

  1. Kings 15. 3. Kings 14. 3. Kings 21. 4. Kings 3. Mark. 6. 2. Kings 12. 2. Chron. 19. 4. Kings 20.

  The Prophets reproued as well good kings as euill.
• * 1.3

  Preachers must not ad∣mit Princes to the Sacra∣ments but on those condi∣tions which god requir••th
• * 1.4

  If Princes will be partakers of Gods gra∣ces, they must receiue them as he doeth propose them.
• * 1.5

  Chryso. in Mat. hom. 83. Ibidem ad popu¦lum Antioch. hom. 60.
• * 1.6

  This is newe Romish diui∣nitie, which in deed is meere impietie.
• * 1.7

  D. ALLENS DEFENCE OF ENG∣LISH CA∣THOLIKES cap. 4.

  LATELY SET FOORTH A∣GAINST THE EXE∣CVTION OF IVSTICE.
• * 1.8

  The defence of the English Catholikes, cap. 4. S. Thomas.
• * 1.9

  Thomas A∣quine a late & corrupt writer & a great fa∣ctor for the Pope.
• * 1.10

  The defence of English Catholikes, Cap. 4.

  Toledoes opi∣nion of a Prince excom¦municate.
• * 1.11

  The case of K. Henrie the 8.
• * 1.12

  What care we for Thole∣does opinion?
• * 1.13

  Preachers must not ad∣mit Princes to the Sacra∣ments but on those conditions which God requireth.
• * 1.14

  Tell vs what warrant and not what fel∣lowes they haue to resist the ordinance o•• God.
• * 1.15

  THE DE∣FENCE OF ENGLISH CATHO∣LIKES.

  The sentence and defini∣tion of the great learned and generall councell of Laterane. Cap. 3. de haeret.
• * 1.16

  This was the next way to make all safe on their side.
• * 1.17

  Platin. in In∣nocent. 3.800. Hungrie friers brought into the coun∣cell to ouer∣rule the Bi∣shops.
• * 1.18

  A fine strata∣geme of the Pope to set out thinges consulted as if they had bin concluded. Platina in vita Innocentij 3. Nothing con∣cluded in the Councel of Lateran.
• * 1.19

  THE DE∣FENCE OF ENGLISH CATHO∣LIKES. Cap. 4. Matth. 19.

  By Gods lawe you may not resist, much lesse displace the Prince.

  The woord of God binding you to obedi∣ence, neither Pope nor coū∣cel can assoile you from it.

  This is it which Master Allen profes∣seth to prooue in the 5. chap. of his Defēce. What subie∣ction & honor God alloweth vnto Princes. 1. Peter 2. Rom. 13. Prouerb. 8.
• * 1.20

  Wisdom. 6.
• * 1.21

  Rom. 13.
• * 1.22

  1. Peter 2.
• * 1.23

  Prouer. 24. We may not dishonor prin∣ces in word, deede or thought. Exod. 22.
• * 1.24

  Eccle. 10. Rom. 13. 1. Pet. 2. Iudgement threatned chiefly to thē that despise Magistrates. 2. Pet. 2. Iude.
• * 1.25

  Rom. 13.
• * 1.26

  Luk. 20. Honor, subie∣ction & tri∣bute by Gods law due to Princes.
• * 1.27

  By the Iesuits doctrine Cae∣sar shal haue that which God alloweth him, so long as pleaseth the Pope.

  You may not resist them or despise them▪ ergo much lesse displace them.
• * 1.28

  Iohn. 8.
• * 1.29

  Deposition is an authentike rebellion vn∣der the Popes scale.
• * 1.30

  The defence of English ca∣tholikes, cap. 5. 1. Reg. 10.15.16. Saul deposed for vsurping spirituall fun∣ction.
• * 1.31

  1. Reg. 22.
• * 1.32

  The Prophets denounced both the tem∣porall & eter∣nall iudge∣mentes of God: but they inflicted neither.
• * 1.33

  By these exā∣ples Priestes may kill men, set their hou∣ses on fire, or pull out their eyes, as wel as displace Prin∣ces: if the Ie∣suites colle∣ctions bee good.
• * 1.34

  The Popes commission to depose Princes they promised to proue by scri∣pture, & nowe vainly suppose it without Scripture.

  Samuel, Elias, and Elizeus had speciall & extraordinary commaunde∣ment from God to doe as they did.
• * 1.35

  The Pope may not doe that which the Prophetes did, till hee haue the same precept which they had.

  To put down kings is an honour speci∣ally reserued vnto God him selfe.

  Luc. 1. Dan. 2. Dan. 4.
• * 1.36

  The Pope will depose Prin∣ces, as well as God.
• * 1.37

  The example of Saul.
• * 1.38

  God prescri∣bed Samuel what he shuld say to Saul, ful sore for against the will of Sa∣muel.

  1. Kings 16. All Israell and Dauid obeied and honoured Saul as the Lords annoin¦ted to his dy∣ing day.

  The defence Cap. 5.

  Aug. contra Adamant. 1. Kings 24.
• * 1.39

  1. Kings 24.
• * 1.40

  1. Kings. 26.
• * 1.41

  2. Kings 1.
• * 1.42

  Ibidem.
• * 1.43

  Cap. 17.
• * 1.44

  1. Kings 26. Dauid confes∣seth he might not kill Saul without sinne.
• * 1.45

  Contra Adi∣mantum ca. 17.
• * 1.46

  The words be grounded ra∣ther on Adi∣mantus asser∣tion than S. Austens per∣swasion.

  S. Aug. spea∣keth not of Sauls deposi∣tion, but of reuenge per∣mitted by Mo∣ses law, which the Maniches did obiect.
• * 1.47

  Adimantus antecedent returned on his own head.
• * 1.48

  Aug. Centra lit. Petilian. lib. 2. cap. 48.
• * 1.49

  S. Aug. hol∣deth that Saul had the holi∣nesse of his princely inun∣ction to the houre of his death.
• * 1.50

  Dauid put himselfe in armes to saue his life & not to seeke the Crowne.
• * 1.51

  Saul reiected from hauing the kingdome to him & his seede.
• * 1.52

  1. Kings 15.
• * 1.53

  The children of Israell re∣quired a king after the ma∣ner of other Nations, that is a setled suc∣cession in the kingdom.

  1. Reg. 13.
• * 1.54

  To thee and thine for euer.
• * 1.55

  1. Kings 15.
• * 1.56

  Aug. de ciuit. Dei, li. 17. ca. 7.
• * 1.57

  S. Augustine expoundeth Saules reiecti∣on as we do.
• * 1.58

  The Scripture is cleare for the same sense.

  1. Kings 16.

  Dauid aduan∣ced when hee was but a boy keeping sheep Dauid neuer claimed the Crowne from Saul.

  1. Kinges 20.
• * 1.59

  The Priestes protested that Dauid was a faithfull ser∣uant to Saul.

  1. King. 22.

  All Israel al∣leadged Sa∣muels fact that Dauid ought to suc∣ceede.

  2. Kings 5. 1. Chron. 11.
• * 1.60

  God annoin∣ted such as should suc∣ceede.
• * 1.61

  The Defence cap. 5.

  3. Reg. 13.14.

  The example of Ieroboam a wicked schis¦matik, denoū∣ced by a priest
• * 1.62

  Prophets may threaten wic∣ked Princes in Gods name but not de∣priue them of their crownes
• * 1.63

  The Prophet that cried out against Iero∣boams Altar spake not a worde of his schisme.
• * 1.64

  It is easie for any side to applie figures as thy list. Reuel. 17. Reuel. 19.
• * 1.65

  Gods threat∣ning Ieroboā is nothing to the doposing of Princes by priestes
• * 1.66

  3. Kinges. 14.
• * 1.67

  The Defence cap. 5. The example of proud Ozi∣as that would take vnto him the authoritie of priests.
• * 1.68

  Vzziah strikē with a lepro∣sie but not de∣posed.
• * 1.69

  The high Priest with∣stood the king with wordes, not with wea∣pons.

  The Iesuites delight in martial terms
• * 1.70

  2. Chron. 26. De verbis Esai. Vidi Dominū.
• * 1.71

  The Iesuits ga∣ther cōclusiōs cleane against the Scriptures and their own canons.
• * 1.72

  Caus. 23. quaest. 8. ¶ 1.
• * 1.73

  Ibidem. ¶ 2.
• * 1.74

  Ibidem. ¶ 3.
• * 1.75

  Ibidem. ¶ Cleri¦ci.
• * 1.76

  Ibidem. ¶ qui∣cunque.
• * 1.77

  Ibidem dict. ¶ quicunque § hijs ita.
• * 1.78

  1. Tim. 3. 2. Tim. 2. Tit. 1.
• * 1.79

  2. Cor. 10.
• * 1.80

  Mat. 24.
• * 1.81

  The Princes person no Priest may vi∣olate, or so much as touch. Psal. 105.
• * 1.82

  1. Kings. 24.
• * 1.83

  They might not vse vio∣lence, & what needed any when the King hastned of himselfe to goe forth?
• * 1.84

  2. Chro. 26.
• * 1.85

  2. Chro. 26.
• * 1.86

  4. Kings. 15.
• * 1.87

  2. Chron. 26. 4. King. 15. Oziah was king of Iudah to the day of his death. The Priestes were to dis∣cerne lepers, but the Magi∣strate to see them kept a∣part from o∣thers.

  Numb. 5. The leprosie of the soule no cause of de∣priuation vn∣to Princes. In Luc. lib. 5. de leproso munda∣to.

  Chrysost. in Mat hom. 16. & oper. imperfect. hom. 10.
• * 1.88

  To beare the sword in mat∣ters of religiō is the Princes and not the priests charge
• * 1.89

  The defence, cap. 5.

  4. Reg. 11.

  The example of the deposi∣tion & death of Queene Athalia by Ioida the hie-Priest.
• * 1.90

  Athalia an vsurper, and slaine by the Kings autho∣ritie.
• * 1.91

  Ioidaes war∣rant to com∣maund Atha∣lia to be put to death in the Kings name.
• * 1.92

  2. Chr••. 23. 4. Kings. 11.
• * 1.93

  The defence, cap. 5.

  3. Reg. 18.19. The executiō done by Eli∣as the Pro∣phet vpon many with deposition of Princes. 4. Reg. 1.
• * 1.94

  3. Reg. 19. 4. Reg. 9.
• * 1.95

  Elias zeale. 3. Kings. 18.
• * 1.96

  Elias caused the Prophets of Baal to be slaine by the publike autho¦ritie of the King and his people.
• * 1.97

  Elias was a Prophet and not an execu∣tioner.
• * 1.98

  How Elias gate Achab & the whole Realm to de∣cree the slaughter of Baals pro∣phets.
• * 1.99

  3. Kings. 17. Vers. 1.
• * 1.100

  3. Kings. 18. Vers. 23. Vers. 24.
• * 1.101

  Vers. 1.Vers. 24.
• * 1.102

  Vers. 39.
• * 1.103

  Vers. 40.
• * 1.104

  Vers. 24. The King and the people consented to Elias offer. Vers. 20.
• * 1.105

  Vers. 24.
• * 1.106

  3. Kings. 19.
• * 1.107

  Elias is said in the Scripture to haue doon the deede, be∣cause he was the procu∣rer and au∣thor of it. Acts. 7. Iosu. 10. 3. Kings. 14.
• * 1.108

  God sent ••er from heauen, & not Elias.
• * 1.109

  Luke. 9.
• * 1.110

  Exod. 12.
• * 1.111

  Iudges. 16.
• * 1.112

  4. Kings. 2.
• * 1.113

  THE DE∣FENCE OF ENGLISH CATHO∣LIKES.

  The annoint∣ing of Hazael.
• * 1.114

  4. Kings. 8.
• * 1.115

  Iehu willed by God to take the sword and root out A∣chabs house 4. Kings. 9. Ibidem. vers. 7. & 8.

  4. Kings. 11.
• * 1.116

  God might giue Iehu the kingdome & appoint him to reuēge his masters sinnes.
• * 1.117

  Iehu authori∣sed by God, and not by Elizeus.
• * 1.118

  Eccle. 48.
• * 1.119

  Eccle. 48.
• * 1.120

  Elias & Elise∣us were no deposers.
• * 1.121

  Eccle. 48.
• * 1.122

  The defence, cap. 5.

  I••larions and conse∣quents vpon the former examples.
• * 1.123

  The former examples inferre no iudiciall de∣position of Princes by Priests. All sauing one were either not lawfully created or not els depo∣sed.
• * 1.124

  Athalia slaine for vsurping: Vzziah smittē for his pride: & Iorams re∣ligiō no worse than his fathers.

  4. King 1.9. Verse. 22. Verse. 7. 3. Kings. 21.

  God vsed the ministerie of the Prophets to declare his will, but not their autho∣ritie to depose Princes.
• * 1.125

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.126

  The Iesuites giue a reason why Priests may depose Princes be∣fore they proue the fact to be lawfull.
• * 1.127

  The question is not whe∣ther the pro∣phets might oppose them to reprooue wicked Kings, but whether they might by their pro∣pheticall vo∣cation depose them.
• * 1.128

  Til God spake no Priest may depose king∣domes.
• * 1.129

  The defence cap. 5.
• * 1.130

  Deut. 17.
• * 1.131

  The subiectiō of al men to the iudgemēt of Priests.
• * 1.132

  This place of Scripture is corrupted by the Papists. Deut. 17.
• * 1.133

  The Greeke and Hebrew, are against the Latine. Deut. 17.
• * 1.134

  Lib. 1. epist. 3.8.11. lib. 3. epist. 9. lib. 4. epist. 9.
• * 1.135

  The Latine text of the Bible depra∣ued.
• * 1.136

  That reading is yet found in sixe writ∣ten Bibles in the new Col∣lege in Ox∣ford.

  Nicol. de Lyrae in cap. 17. Deut cronomij.
• * 1.137

  The commō wealth of the Iewes and the Scriptures themselues impugne the Iesuites sense of that place.

  Exod. 18. Inferiour iudges (which afterward heard smaller matters in the gates of ech Citie,) first apointed by the counsel of Iethro.

  Numbers. 11.
• * 1.138

  The same or∣der of inferi∣our and supe∣riour iudges established by Gods law for euer a∣mong the Iewes. Deut. 16.
• * 1.139

  Deut. 17.

  The superiour iudgement consisted both of priests to direct, and magistrates to correct.

  The chiefe magistrates before kings were ordained in Israel n••uer called Iudges.
• * 1.140

  This Court was after assistant and subiect to the King.

  Iehosaphat renued these two formes of iudgement. 2. Chro. 19.

  The King cō∣manded thē, ergo they were not to com∣mand him.
• * 1.141

  All matters were not re∣ferred to the priest, and the kings matters are namely excepted frō them.
• * 1.142

  How the Iesu∣ites abuse the sense of this place in Deut▪ The King not subiect to their Court.
• * 1.143

  The magi∣strate cleane stroken out by the Iesuites, & al his interest conueighed to the Priest.
• * 1.144

  This Court limited to the law of God & that speaketh no∣thing of de∣posing Prin∣ces.
• * 1.145

  Neuer high priest deposed Kings, but Kings haue deposed high Priests.

  3. Kings. 2.

  Adoniahs right to the Crowne was better than Salomons, by the hie priests iudgement: and yet the king remoued the hie Priest frō his office and put the competitor to death.

  Neuer King of Israell or Iudah remo∣ued from the Crown by any Priest: & yet the causes then as vrgēt as now.

  How can you excuse the hie Priests of Iuda for not doing their dutie: if by Gods law they had beene the Princes supe∣riours?

  The Priests & Prophets lost their liues for reprouing Princes: and more it could not cost to de∣pose them.
• * 1.146

  The Defence cap. 5.

  A condition implied in the creation of al Princes.
• * 1.147

  God required many things in a Prince, the breach of which is not deposition. Deut. 17.
• * 1.148

  Deut. 17.
• * 1.149

  Princes brake couenants with God, and yet were not deposed.
• * 1.150

  The defence, cap. 5.

  The authori∣ty of Priest∣hood in the new Testa∣ment.
• * 1.151

  Lesse in the newe testa∣ment for the deposition of Princes than in the old.
• * 1.152

  Rom. 13.

  The defence, cap. 5.

  Psal. 2. Ieremi. 1. Mat. 16.
• * 1.153

  The superemi¦nent power of Christs priest∣hoode is no∣thing to the Pope.
• * 1.154

  The defence, cap. 5.

  Mat. 18.
• * 1.155

  Psal. 2.
• * 1.156

  Reuel. 19.
• * 1.157

  Christ bru∣seth his eni∣mies as a king & not as a Priest.
• * 1.158

  Hebr. 7.
• * 1.159

  Hebr. 9.
• * 1.160

  Hebr. 10.
• * 1.161

  Hebr. 9.
• * 1.162

  Hebr. 7.

  All Christes dignitie may not be impar∣ted to the Pope.
• * 1.163

  Mat. 16.
• * 1.164

  Iohn. 20.
• * 1.165

  Mat. 16.
• * 1.166

  De considerat. ad Eugen. lib. 2.
• * 1.167

  Theophilact. in 16. cap. Matth.
• * 1.168

  Ambros. de poe∣nitēt. li. 1. ca. 2. August. de doc∣trina christiana lib. 1. cap. 18.
• * 1.169

  The defence. cap. 5.

  Iohn. 21. Mat. 16.
• * 1.170

  Hebr. 13. 1. Cor. 4.5. 2. Iohn.
• * 1.171

  Out of these places none other argu∣ments can be made than these.
• * 1.172

  Iohn. 21.
• * 1.173

  Mat. 16.
• * 1.174

  Heb. 13,
• * 1.175

  Pastours may feede, but not depriue.
• * 1.176

  Pastors may threaten, but God must pu∣nish Princes.
• * 1.177

  Heb. 10.
• * 1.178

  Mat. 16.
• * 1.179

  God is the re∣uenger of such as contemne his word.
• * 1.180

  The defence, cap. 5.

  Ad Tit. 3.
• * 1.181

  No companie with heretiks and idolaters.
• * 1.182

  Companie not duetie prohibited by S. Paul.
• * 1.183

  1. Cor. 5.
• * 1.184

  2. Thes. 3.
• * 1.185

  2. Thes. 3.
• * 1.186

  Tit. 3.
• * 1.187

  2. Iohn. 10.
• * 1.188

  Ech man must haue his due, whether he be Turk, heretike or Infidel.
• * 1.189

  Rom. 13.
• * 1.190

  Seruauntes by gods law may not forsake their masters for heresie.

  Cod. lib. 1. tit. 5. de haeret. § Man. in fin.
• * 1.191

  Colos. 3.
• * 1.192

  Tit. 2.
• * 1.193

  The wife may not forsake her husband for idolatrie or heresie.
• * 1.194

  Mat. 5. & 19.
• * 1.195

  Decretal. lib. 4. de diuortiis ¶ quanto.
• * 1.196

  1. Peter 3. Tit. 2. Ephes. 5.
• * 1.197

  Mark▪ 7.
• * 1.198

  Ephes. 6.
• * 1.199

  Colos. 3.
• * 1.200

  1. Cor. 5.
• * 1.201

  2. Thes. 3.
• * 1.202

  2. Iohn. 10.
• * 1.203

  What S. Paul and S. Iohn prohibite.
• * 1.204

  Least of all may the sub∣iect forsake his Prince, though he bee an idolater or an heretike. Rom. 13.
• * 1.205

  Mat. 22.
• * 1.206

  Rom. 13.
• * 1.207

  1. Pet. 2.
• * 1.208

  The flat and firm precepts of the Scrip∣ture must not be ouerthrowē by generall & indirect colle∣ctions.
• * 1.209

  Subiection is due as well to heretical, as to idolatrous and tyranni∣call Princes. Rom. 13.
• * 1.210

  2 Iohn 10.
• * 1.211

  1. Cor. 10. ver. 27 With what sort of Infi∣dels Christi∣ans might be conuersant. 2. Cor. 6.
• * 1.212

  The Pope res∣pecteth excō∣munication, because hee would excom∣municate whom he list.
• * 1.213

  The perill of excommuni∣cation by Gods law is not depositiō. Mat. 18. Barthol. sumus in verbo, excom∣municat. nume∣ro 45 & Mar∣garita decret. in eodem verbo: V••ile, lex, hu∣mile ••es ignora∣ta, necesse; haec anathem•• qui∣dem faciunt, ne possit obesse.
• * 1.214

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.215

  Spirituall P••∣stors haue power to pu∣nish corporal∣ly.
• * 1.216

  Pastou••s haue no power o∣uer the goods or bodies of christians.
• * 1.217

  The defence. Cap. 5. Act. 13. 1. Cor. 4. 1. Cor 5. 1. Tim. 1. 2. Cor. 10.
• * 1.218

  1. Cor. 6.
• * 1.219

  They shoulde proue that Priestes may iudicially tor∣ment the bo∣dies of the wicked, and they proue that God did miraculouslie reuenge im∣pietie.
• * 1.220

  Peter slue A∣nanias not with his hāds but with his mouth, which was the work•• of God.
• * 1.221

  Act. 5.
• * 1.222

  Act. 5.
• * 1.223

  Act. 13.
• * 1.224

  The hand of the Lord and not of Paul was vppon Elymas.
• * 1.225

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.226

  The incestu∣ous Corinthiā deliuered vn∣to Satan. 1. Corin 5. Ambros. in 1. Cor. cap. 5.
• * 1.227

  Ibidem.
• * 1.228

  Ibidem.
• * 1.229

  1. Cor. 5.
• * 1.230

  In cap. 5. Epist. ad Cor.
• * 1.231

  Aug. quaest. vet. & noui Test. quaest. 49.
• * 1.232

  Hieron. in 1. Cor. cap. 5.
• * 1.233

  Chrysost. in 1. Cor. hom. 15.
• * 1.234

  Hieron. ad He∣liodorum.
• * 1.235

  Idem ad Ripa∣rium aduers. Vigilantium.
• * 1.236

  Aug. contra ep▪ Parm. li. 3. ca. 2▪
• * 1.237

  The Diuell & not the Apo∣stles tormen∣ted such as were excom∣municated.
• * 1.238

  The Magi∣strate is Gods minister to punish the body. Rom. 13.
• * 1.239

  When & why God suffered the Diuell to afflict offen∣dors.
• * 1.240

  1. Cor. 11.
• * 1.241

  Chrysost. in 1. Tim. hom. 5.
• * 1.242

  Ibidem.
• * 1.243

  Theodoret. in 1. Cor. cap. 5.
• * 1.244

  Heb. 13.
• * 1.245

  Mat. 22.
• * 1.246

  1. King. 8.
• * 1.247

  Ibidem.
• * 1.248

  Only Prince•• are to com∣maund the goods & bo∣dies of their s••biects.
• * 1.249

  Chrysost. de ver∣bis Esaiae, Vidi Dominum hom. 4.
• * 1.250

  Hieron. ad He∣liodor. in epitap. Nepotiani.
• * 1.251

  1. Cor. 6. S. Paul abused by the Iesuit••s to make the Pope iudge of temporal matters.
• * 1.252

  1. Cor. 6.
• * 1.253

  ••. Cor. 6.
• * 1.254

  De opere Mo∣nachorum ca. 29
• * 1.255

  Cōfes. li. 6. ca 3.
• * 1.256

  Praefat. in lib. Dialogorum.
• * 1.257

  Ibidem.

  The Bishops might not re∣fuse to heare and end the griefs of their brethren by charitable perswasion but not by iu∣diciall com∣pulsion, with∣out the Prin∣ces warrant.
• * 1.258

  The defence, Cap. 5.
• * 1.259

  The defence, Cap. 5.

  The ciuil Go∣uernor subiect to the spiritu∣all amongst christians.
• * 1.260

  Though the spirituall and temporall bee distinct states, yet the Pope will be sure to rule thē both.
• * 1.261

  Pastours haue their regimēt but ouer the soules, not o∣uer the bodies or goods of men.
• * 1.262

  Howe the Prince is sub∣iect to the Priest: & like∣wise the priest to the Prince.
• * 1.263

  The Prince is absolutely subiect vnto God: and yet if he refuse his dutie to God, he may not be depo∣sed by the mi∣nister.

  The defence, cap. 5.

  In orat. ad po∣pul▪ trepidan••ē & Impera. com∣mo••um.

  Nazians simi∣litude to ex∣presse the sub∣ordination of ciuil and of spirituall go∣uernment.
• * 1.264

  Nazianzenes wordes to the Emperour.
• * 1.265

  Nazian. oratio. 18. ad ciues Na¦zianzenos gra∣ui timore per∣culsos, & prin∣cipem irascent.
• * 1.266

  Nazian. Ibidem.
• * 1.267

  Ibidem.

  The Bishop claimeth free speeches in Gods behalfe to intreate the Prince for the people.
• * 1.268

  Ibidem.
• * 1.269

  Nazian. Ibidē.
• * 1.270

  Ibidem.
• * 1.271

  We; that is as wel Pastors as people.
• * 1.272

  Orati••. 18. ad ciues Nazian. The preach∣ers function excelleth the Princes im∣perfection.
• * 1.273

  Wherin prin∣ces excell Preachers.
• * 1.274

  The princes & the preachers functions cō∣curre in the same things, though in diuerse sortes.
• * 1.275

  The defence, cap. 5.

  When the spirituall go∣uernment is to correct the temporall.
• * 1.276

  Pastoures must procure the welfare of of the church, but by lawfull and Godly meanes.
• * 1.277

  The Defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.278

  Mat. 18.
• * 1.279

  The Pride of Popes prefer∣ring thēselues before Prin∣ces.

  Decretal. lib. 1. tit. 33. de maio∣rirat. & obediē∣tia cap. 6. ¶ praeterea.
• * 1.280

  Ibidem glossa in ver. Inter Solem & Lu∣nam.

  Passing good Arythmetike ⅞ is 56. not 47.

  The Iesuites rake the verie filth of their schoole mē & Canonists, & set a new flo∣rish vpon it.
• * 1.281

  If thy brother sinne against thee, that is, doe thee pri∣uate wrong.
• * 1.282

  Ambros. in Lucam. lib. 8. cap. 17.
• * 1.283

  Hieron. ••n Matthaei 16.
• * 1.284

  August. de verbis Domini, sermo. 16. Let him be to thee as an Ethnicke: that is, compt him no longer to bee thy brother.
• * 1.285

  Let him be to thee as an Ethnike, ma∣keth nothing for the depo∣sition of Prin∣ces.

  They were Ethnickes to whom Christ and his Apo∣stles commā∣ded all men to be subiect. Iohn. 19.
• * 1.286

  August. contra aduersar. legis & Prophet lib. 1. cap. 17.

  To be left to the iudgemēt of god is more grieuous than any humane torment can be.

  Ibidem.
• * 1.287

  The Church can not de∣cree that Princes shall be deposed.
• * 1.288

  The Church may not break the least of Gods com∣mandements.
• * 1.289

  August. contra Crescon. lib. 2. cap. 21.

  Chrysost. opere imperfect. in Mat. homil. 49.
• * 1.290

  Gal. 1.
• * 1.291

  Luk. 20.
• * 1.292

  Rom. 13.
• * 1.293

  1. Peter 2.
• * 1.294

  The defence, Cap. 5.

  Deceitfull perswasions of Politikes vnto Princes for their ruine
• * 1.295

  The Apostles, whose com∣mission was largest, had no power to depose prin∣ces.
• * 1.296

  Episcopal iu∣risdiction standeth not in the deposi∣tiō of princes.
• * 1.297

  The precepts of God for obedience to Princes bind Bishops as well as o∣thers.
• * 1.298

  Rom. 13. What mocke∣ries the Iesu∣its must make of the Scrip∣tures before they can de∣pose Princes by the word of God.
• * 1.299

  Rom. 13.
• * 1.300

  1. Pet. 2.
• * 1.301

  Luke. 20.
• * 1.302

  The Iesuites pretend that lawe, order & iudgement shuld be obser∣ued in the de∣posing of prin¦ces, but the Pope wilbe tied no farder than to one of these.
• * 1.303

  The defence, cap. 5.

  The exāples of disobediēt Princes to the Church and of their punishment or confusion.
• * 1.304

  Some late Princes haue beene wearie with the Popes practi∣ses, but neuer anie obayed his sentence of deposition.
• * 1.305

  The Pope in greater dāger with God for abusing his keyes, than Princes for resisting his attempts.
• * 1.306

  Caus. 11. quaest. 3. ¶ cui est. Ibidem ¶ tem••∣rarium.
• * 1.307

  The defence. cap. 5.

  Chrysost. in vitae Babyl.

  The example of Bishop Babylas.
• * 1.308

  Nicep. li. 5. c. 25.
• * 1.309

  Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 24.

  Theod. lib. 5. cap. 17.

  Ambros. lib. 5. epist. 28.

  Aug. de ciuitate Dei, li. 5. ca. 26.
• * 1.310

  Our shameles age.
• * 1.311

  Diuers prin∣ces excom∣municated by their Pastors.
• * 1.312

  Niceph. lib. 13. cap. 34.

  Georg. Patriar. in vita. chrysos.
• * 1.313

  The sentence of excommu∣nication gi∣uen by In∣nocentius Bi∣shop of Rome against the Emperour.
• * 1.314

  Excommuni∣cation doth not infer de∣position.

  The Iesuits proue that some Princes were excom∣municated, when they should proue they were de∣posed.

  With Idola∣ters and Infi∣deles we may communicate in earthly, but not in heauēly things.
• * 1.315

  Infidels of their owne accord be out of the church, heretikes be thrust out.
• * 1.316

  Vt suprà pag. 350.
• * 1.317

  Princes in the primatiue Church were excommuni∣cated, & yet honored and obayed, ergo depositiō is no point of excōmuni∣cation.

  The Princes were heretiks & yet obaied & serued, ergo heresie then was no depri∣uation from their Crowns. The Iesuites examples are flat against the depriuati∣on of Princes.
• * 1.318

  Chrysost. contrae. gentiles, liber continens vit•• Babylae Mar∣tyris.

  This report of Babylas can not stand with the Church storie.
• * 1.319

  Euseb. li. 6. ca. 39.
• * 1.320

  Niceph. lib. 5. cap. 26.

  Babylas died in prison vn∣der Decius, & not slaine by Numerius or Philip.

  Chrysost. contra gentiles.
• * 1.321

  Chrysost. contra Gentil.
• * 1.322

  Niceph. lib. cap. 25.

  Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 34.

  The Prince instructed to aske pardon at gods hands for al his for∣mer sinnes, & not depriued of his Crown.
• * 1.323

  S. Ambrose is the only exā∣ple in al anti∣quitie (iustly proued) that a Bishop did excōmunicat a Prince.

  Theodoret. li. 5. cap. 17.

  Theod. lib. 5. cap. 18.

  The maner of S. Ambrose his excommuni∣cation.
• * 1.324

  Sozome. lib. 7. cap. 24.

  The Iesuites helpe this storie with their admix∣tions.
• * 1.325

  Theodoret. li. 5. cap. 18.
• * 1.326

  Theod. Ibidem.
• * 1.327

  Sozome. li. 7. Cap. 24.

  S. Ambrose would not that the prin∣ces presence should hinder the seruice of God.
• * 1.328

  Princes may be penitent for their sins, & yet keepe their Crowns.
• * 1.329

  Anastasius excommuni∣cation is not certainly proued.
• * 1.330

  Liber Pontifi. in vita Symmach.
• * 1.331

  Euag. lib. 3. cap. 34.
• * 1.332

  Niceph. lib. 16. cap. 35. Sabel. Aenead. 8. lib. 2. Platina in Gelasio 1. Martinus in Anastasio. Ioh. Marius de schismat. & concil. cap. 6.
• * 1.333

  Platina in Gelas. 1.
• * 1.334

  Sabellicus lib. 2.
• * 1.335

  Caus. 15. quaest. 6. ¶ Alius.
• * 1.336

  A strange kind of depo∣sing Princes.
• * 1.337

  Ibidem.
• * 1.338

  Michaels ex∣cōmunicatiō witnessed in no auncient writer.
• * 1.339

  Platina in Nicolao 1. Zonaras in Mi∣chaele filio Theophili.
• * 1.340

  Epist. Nicolai 1. ad Michael. Imperatorem, tomo. concil. 2.
• * 1.341

  Regino in anno 855. & Otho ••rising. lib. 6. cap. 2.

  Regino in anno 866.
• * 1.342

  Regino in anno 869.

  Otho Frisingen. lib. 6. cap. 3.
• * 1.343

  This excom∣munication is proued to be a mere for∣gerie before.
• * 1.344

  Of seuen ex∣amples but one proued, and that of no Bishop of Rome.
• * 1.345

  The cause why the Church of Christ did so rarely ex∣communicate Princes.

  August. contra Parmenian. lib. 3. cap. 2.

  Excommuni∣cations of whole realms then be much more proude, pernitious & sacrilegious. August. contra epist. Parmen. lib. 3. cap. 2.
• * 1.346

  The whole Church ob∣serued this moderation which Austen speaketh of.
• * 1.347

  August. Ibidem. lib. 3. cap. 2.
• * 1.348

  2. Thesalo. 3. The subiect neither may nor cā flie the Princes com∣panie.
• * 1.349

  Theodoret. lib. 5 cap. 18.
• * 1.350

  The Iesuites prouide for this mischiefe by wilie dis∣sembling with Princes, till they be strong enough to take their crownes from them.
• * 1.351

  Tum demum, obliget Catholi∣cos, quando pub∣lica eiusdē bul∣lae executio fieri poterit. facultas concessa Roberto Parsonio & Ed∣mundo Campia∣no, 14. April. 1480. 8. Tim. 2. Ierem. 19.
• * 1.352

  Tertul. in Apo∣loget.

  The christiās praied not on∣ly for their conuersion, but also for their health and welfare.
• * 1.353

  The church praied for the prosperitie of hereticall Princes.
• * 1.354

  Socra. li. 2. ca. 37 Sozom. lib. 4.cap. 18.
• * 1.355

  Socrat. Ibidem. Accustomed praiers al∣waies made, in the church for Constātius the Arian; & the West Bi∣shops desirous to continue the same.

  Hil. ad Constan. lib. 2.

  Athan. Apolog. ad Constan.
• * 1.356

  The zealous praier of A∣tha. and the people for their Prince though an heretike. Athan. Ibidem.
• * 1.357

  Athan. eadem Apol. ad Constā. Rebellion & depriuation of Princes not so much as thought on by christians, and specially by Bishops.
• * 1.358

  The defence, Cap. 5.

  When & vpō what occasi∣ons spirituall Pastors began to vse the tem¦porall sworde.
• * 1.359

  Spirituall Pa∣stours neuer v∣sed the tem∣porall sworde till the Pope beganne to rule all at his pleasure.
• * 1.360

  The defence, Cap. 5.
• * 1.361

  Warre for the Catholike re∣ligion both lawfull and honorable.
• * 1.362

  The Iesuites should proue that sub∣iectes may rebell against their Princes for religion, and they shew that one Prince may warre vpon another.
• * 1.363

  In all warres the person must be war∣rāted to draw the sword, as well as the cause good that they fight for.
• * 1.364

  Priuate men can giue no warrant to vse the sword.
• * 1.365

  They be but theeues and murtherers that vse the sword without the magistrats authoritie.
• * 1.366

  Pastours can authorize no man to vse the sworde. They that beare it by Gods ordi∣nance, must li∣cence others to vse it. Pastors be no superiour iudges for bearing armes
• * 1.367

  The defence.
• * 1.368

  How fauora∣ble the Pa∣pistes bee to their owne tumults.
• * 1.369

  Lawes of their owne making do not excuse them from rebellion.

  The Iesuites take armes to depose Prin∣ces, that is, to subuert their states & liues, whom by Gods lawe they should honor and obey.
• * 1.370

  The defence.

  cap. 15. 2. Paral. cap. 15.
• * 1.371

  A king forcing his people is no proofe for subiectes op∣pressing their Prince.
• * 1.372

  These straun∣gers did take an oth to serue God, but not to impugne their Prince.
• * 1.373

  2. Chron. 15. 3. Kings 15. The mother could haue no right to the Scepter her sonne being in full posses∣sion of the crowne.
• * 1.374

  2. Chron. 15.
• * 1.375

  Asa had been king 15. yeares & aboue, be∣fore he remo∣ued his mo∣ther from her dignitie.

  Asaes mother lost the digni∣ty which shee had, but not the crowne, which she had not.

  The defence, cap. 5.

  Deut. cap. 13.
• * 1.376

  Death by Gods law pro∣uided not for heretiks, but for Apostates.
• * 1.377

  Leuit. 24.20. Exod. 22.21. The penalties of Moses lawe stand not in force vnder the Gospell. Aug. contra Cresc. li. 3. ca. 50 nullis bonis in catholica hoc placet, si vs{que} ad mortem in quē∣quam, licet hae∣reticum saeuia∣tur.

  Deut. 13.
• * 1.378

  Exod. 20.
• * 1.379

  The Prince is to punish o∣thers, and not to be punished by others.
• * 1.380

  Princes when they sin must be left to the righteous iudgement of God.
• * 1.381

  Children may not chastise their parentes though faulty: much lesse sub¦iects their So∣ueraignes. Deut. 25. Execution done vpon Princes.
• * 1.382

  You would slay 3000.
• * 1.383

  Numb. 25.4. Vers. 1. 2. This fact had the comman∣dement of God and the magistrate for a warrant, rebellion a∣gainst Prince•• hath neither.
• * 1.384

  Numb. 25.5.
• * 1.385

  God imbraced the zeale of Phinees not for vsing the sword without authoritie, but for neglecting his owne dig∣nitie, whiles he did execute the precept of God & the magistrate.
• * 1.386

  Exod. 32.

  The Leuites were charged by God & the Magistrate to do this execu∣tion.
• * 1.387

  1. Chron. 6.
• * 1.388

  ••. Chron. 23.
• * 1.389

  Moses was a Magistrate. Gen. 14. Priests and Prophetes a∣mong the Iewes were sometimes magistrates. Psalm. 99.
• * 1.390

  2. Sam. 8.
• * 1.391

  2. Sam. 20. The word cohē signifieth as well a Prince as a Priest.
• * 1.392

  Exod. 40. Aaron & his sonnes onely had the priest∣hood
• * 1.393

  Numb. 3. Moses was Aarons bro∣ther and not his sonne.
• * 1.394

  Num. 18.
• * 1.395

  Aarons bre∣thren might not come neer the Altar.
• * 1.396

  Moses might annoint Aa∣ron, & yet be no Priest.
• * 1.397

  Heb. 5.
• * 1.398

  Hieron. traditi∣ones Hebraicae in libros Regum tomo 3.
• * 1.399

  Hieron. in Psal. 98. S. Hierom & S. Aug. take the woord Priest largely, for him that tea∣cheth as well as for him that offereth: and in that sense Moses may be called a Priest, not∣withstanding he were also a Magistrate. August. in Psalm. 98.
• * 1.400

  1. Chron. 6.33.34.
• * 1.401

  Num. 25.13.
• * 1.402

  1. Sam. 14.
• * 1.403

  1. Chron. 6.
• * 1.404

  Aug. quaest. su∣per Leuit. lib. 3. cap. 23.
• * 1.405

  Numb. 12.
• * 1.406

  Exod. 33.
• * 1.407

  Numb. 27. Deut. 31.
• * 1.408

  Iudg. 1.
• * 1.409

  1. Sam. 16. Samuel no Priest.
• * 1.410

  1. Sam. 7.
• * 1.411

  Iudg. 11.
• * 1.412

  Iudg. 13.
• * 1.413

  Iudg. 13.2.
• * 1.414

  2. Sam. 6.
• * 1.415

  2. Sam. 24.
• * 1.416

  1. Kings 3.
• * 1.417

  1. Kings 9.
• * 1.418

  What the scri∣pture mea∣neth when it saith that they which were no Priests of∣fered.
• * 1.419

  1. Sam. 13.
• * 1.420

  1. Sam. 14. vers. 3. & 18.
• * 1.421

  Sauls offence was distrust & impatience: & not sacrificing in his owne person.
• * 1.422

  1. Sam. 10.
• * 1.423

  1. Sam. 13.
• * 1.424

  The defence, Cap. 5. Numb. 27. The punish∣ment of Prin∣ces for schism and reuolt. 2. Paral. 13. 1. Paral. 21. 4. Reg. 8.
• * 1.425

  Numb. 27.21.
• * 1.426

  The Priest was to consult God for the kinges warres but not to ap∣point the king what he thought good
• * 1.427

  Ver. 18.28.
• * 1.428

  Ver. 18.
• * 1.429

  Ver. 2.4.11.12.
• * 1.430

  Ver. 8.
• * 1.431

  2. Chron. 13. The warres of Abiah were of one Prince a∣gainst an o∣ther.
• * 1.432

  2. Chron. 11.
• * 1.433

  2. Chron. 13.5.

  And not so much for reli∣gion as for renting the kingdom of Israell from Iudah.
• * 1.434

  3. Kings 15. 3 Kings. 14.22.
• * 1.435

  Abia was as bad as Iero∣boam.
• * 1.436

  4. Kings 8. The men of Edom were prophane infi∣dels, and had no respect to religion when they reuol∣ted.
• * 1.437

  2. Chron. 25.
• * 1.438

  Ioshua 21. 4▪ Kings 8.
• * 1.439

  Euerie thing reported in the Scripture is not by & by commended.
• * 1.440

  2. Chron. 21. They did euill to rebell, or else al the rest that obeied, did not well.
• * 1.441

  This defectiō of Libuah from the king¦dom of Iudah and temple of God, was di∣rectly against the law of God.
• * 1.442

  Ioshua 22. The ten tribes had sufficient authoritie to fight with twaine. Iudg. 20.
• * 1.443

  The defence, cap. 5. But what fights can you shew of sub∣iects against their Princes? The warres of prince against prince are no∣thing to this purpose.
• * 1.444

  The defence, Cap. 5. Euseb. li. 9. ca. 6.
• * 1.445

  The Armeni∣ans were no subiects but consederates.
• * 1.446

  Euseb. li. 9. ca. 7.
• * 1.447

  The defence, Cap. 5.

  Warres made for religion.
• * 1.448

  It is not e∣nough to proue that some rebelled but this also must be shew∣ed that their rebellion was allowed.
• * 1.449

  Rom. 13. Well they might shut the Church dores against Ethnickes whiles they were at the diuine myste∣ries, but they neuer rebel∣led nor refu∣sed to suffer any punish∣mēt that Ga∣lerius or o∣thers would inflict on thē.
• * 1.450

  Euseb. li. 8. ca. 7.9.10.12.
• * 1.451

  Euseb. li. 8. ca. 7.9.10.12.
• * 1.452

  The defence, cap. 5. Nazian▪ de lande Basil. Ambros. lib. 5. epist.
• * 1.453

  Theod. lib. 4. cap. 19.
• * 1.454

  S. Basil would not suffer the people to grow to a tumult for his defēce. See Nazian∣zenes funeral oration in the praier of S. Basil.
• * 1.455

  The people offered to saue their Bi∣shop frō the priuate and intemperate rage of a de∣putie, but not from the Em∣perour. Nazian. in lau∣dem Basilij ora∣tio funebr.
• * 1.456

  This tumult seemed tolle∣rable, and yet S. Basill would not allow it.
• * 1.457

  S. Ambrose would not suf∣fer the peo∣ple of Millan to defēd him against the Emperour.

  Ambros. epist. lib. 5. epist. ad Marcel. 33.
• * 1.458

  Ibidem.
• * 1.459

  Pugnare non debeo.
• * 1.460

  See the fifth booke and 33. epistle of S. Ambrose for this whole action.

  This casuall disorder was much a∣gainst the Bishops will: & yet nothing neere a rebel∣lion.

  Lib. 5. epist 33.
• * 1.461

  Ibidem.
• * 1.462

  Had the Iesu∣ites been in S. Ambrose place they would haue tolde the Emperor an other tale.
• * 1.463

  The Defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.464

  If the people were afraid to rebell in the primatiue Church, what thinke you were the Bi∣shops?
• * 1.465

  The defence, cap. 5.

  Theodoret. li. 2. cap. 13.

  The example of Athanasius.

  Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 13. Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 7. Dama. in Pon∣tific.

  Athanasius no rebell.
• * 1.466

  Athanasius horribly be∣l••ed by the Iesuits.
• * 1.467

  Athanasius cleareth him∣selfe of that which the Ie∣suits father on him.

  Athanas. ad Imperator. Con∣stantiū Apolog.

  Did this man stirre Con∣stans against Constantius?
• * 1.468

  And Iesuits.
• * 1.469

  Athanasius saith it had been madnes to haue done that which the Iesuits say he did.
• * 1.470

  Athanas. Ibidē.
• * 1.471

  Ibidem.
• * 1.472

  How farre the was he from rebelling?
• * 1.473

  Be they sober or wel in their wits that not only thinke but openly af∣firm they may resist and de∣priue the prince?

  The people of Alexandria were verie seditious.

  Socra. li. 7. c. 13.
• * 1.474

  Euag. li. 2. ca. 8.
• * 1.475

  Socrat. lib. 3. cap. 2. & lib. 5. cap. 16. & li. 7. cap. 13. Euag. lib. 2. cap. 5. & 8.
• * 1.476

  Theeues and murtherers far more tole∣rable than de∣posers of Princes.
• * 1.477

  Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 9.
• * 1.478

  Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 13.

  Athanas. euer submitted him selfe, when he saw the peo∣ple inclined to any tumult for his cause.
• * 1.479

  Sozom. lib. 8. cap. 18.

  And so did Chrysostome.
• * 1.480

  The Defence, cap. 5.

  Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 17. 30. Sozom. lib. 6. cap. 19.
• * 1.481

  Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 37.
• * 1.482

  The tumult at Alexandria for the recei∣uing of Peter and reiecting of Lucius.
• * 1.483

  Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 37.
• * 1.484

  The people draue Lucius from his See: but not with armes.
• * 1.485

  The people might cleaue to their true pastor, though the Prince by force had placed an o∣ther in his steede.
• * 1.486

  That Lucius was expelled from his Bi∣shopricke is confessed, but the meane how it was done is not expressed.
• * 1.487

  Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 36.
• * 1.488

  Lucius dete∣sted for shed∣ing of blood by one that was a conuert of the Sara∣cens.
• * 1.489

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.490

  Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 18. Niceph. lib. 14. cap. 21.
• * 1.491

  Theodoret. li. 5. cap. 39.
• * 1.492

  How the Per∣sians were harboured by Theodosius the yonger.
• * 1.493

  Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 18.
• * 1.494

  Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 18.
• * 1.495

  Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 20.
• * 1.496

  Can the Iesu∣its find no difference betweene de∣posing prin∣ces, by their owne subiects & harboring of strangers by other prin∣ces?
• * 1.497

  Atticus no subiect to the persian, can be no president for subiects.
• * 1.498

  Theodosius the Emperor had other good causes to warre vpon the Persian.
• * 1.499

  Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 20.
• * 1.500

  Cap. 18. & 20.
• * 1.501

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.502

  The example of Pope Leo the first.
• * 1.503

  Leo. epist. 75. Euag. li. 2. ca. 8.
• * 1.504

  Leo requested the Prince to punish his sub∣iects, what is that to the depriuation of Princes? Euag. li. 2. ca. 8.
• * 1.505

  It is a glorious thing for a Prince to pu∣nish heretikes but not for subiects to re∣bell against their Prince.
• * 1.506

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.507

  Gregorie made the like request to the Emperours deputie.
• * 1.508

  For 600. yeres after Christ, no subiect tooke armes against his prince for any matter of re∣ligion.
• * 1.509

  Aug. in Psal. 124.
• * 1.510

  If Apostataes were serued & obaied by Christians, what Princes should be de∣posed?
• * 1.511

  Caus. 11. quaest. 13. §. Iulianus.
• * 1.512

  The defence, cap. 5. What Princes may be excō∣municated & when.
• * 1.513

  The Iesuites finding no ex∣ample in the Primatiue church where a prince was vrged with armes by his own subiects, come to this shift, that they might haue doone it, though they did it not.
• * 1.514

  If the Bishops might haue deposed prin∣ces and did not, thē were they permit∣ters & increa∣sers of their heresie and tyrannie.
• * 1.515

  The defence, Cap. 5.
• * 1.516

  The Iesuits slaunder the aunciēt mar∣tyrs of christs Church, as if they had been willing but not able to resist their Princes.

  Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 22.

  What opor∣tunities the christians had to distresse Constantius.

  Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 25.
• * 1.517

  Athanas. apolog ad Constant.
• * 1.518

  Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 34.
• * 1.519

  And Iulian.
• * 1.520

  In Psal. 124.
• * 1.521

  Socrat. lib. 3. cap. 22.
• * 1.522

  And valens.
• * 1.523

  Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 3.

  Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 35.
• * 1.524

  And Valen∣tinian. Paulus Diaco∣nus de gest. Ro∣manor. lib. 1.
• * 1.525

  And Anasta∣sius.

  Euag. li. 3. ca. 44 Anastasius an heretike offe∣red to resigne his Crowne & the people would not suffer him. Regard of du∣tie and the Apostles do∣ctrine kept the primatiue Church from resisting here∣ticall princes.
• * 1.526

  Rom. 13.
• * 1.527

  Paulus Diaco∣nus de gest. Ro∣manor. lib. 1.
• * 1.528

  The defence, cap. 5.

  Se. S. Thomas 2.2. quaest. 10. artic. 10.
• * 1.529

  Rom. 13.
• * 1.530

  Their scroles resolue direct∣ly against S. Paul. Rom. 13. Luke. 20.
• * 1.531

  This is nether pertinent to our question nor any part of their mea∣ning.
• * 1.532

  Tertullian. ad Scapulam.

  Neuer rebels were christiās in the prima∣tiue Church.
• * 1.533

  The reasons why Christiās would not re∣sist, taken out of their own confessions.
• * 1.534

  Tertul. in apolo∣getico.
• * 1.535

  Ibidem.

  Christians commanded by God to pray for their Princes though they were perse∣cutors.

  Ibidem.
• * 1.536

  See S. Paul & S. Peter for obedience to heathen Princes.
• * 1.537

  Rom. 13.
• * 1.538

  Tertul. in apolo∣getico.
• * 1.539

  Mark what faces the Christians had 200. yeres after Christ.
• * 1.540

  Desolation would haue followed if the Christiās should haue but forsaken the Pagans. The Citizens almost all Christians.
• * 1.541

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.542

  The defence, cap. 5.

  Princes excō∣municated & depriued for defects in re∣ligion.
• * 1.543

  An Anti pape.
• * 1.544

  Heretical malice.
• * 1.545

  No president for the depri∣uatiō of prin∣ces within a 1000. yeres af∣ter Christ.
• * 1.546

  Zonar. annal. to. 3. in imperio Leon. Isa••ri.
• * 1.547

  Vrspergens. in anno 718.
• * 1.548

  Otho Frisingen. lib. 5. cap. 18.
• * 1.549

  Sigebert. in anno 731.
• * 1.550

  The rebellion of the Italiās against Leo might be the Popes secret practise, but he durst not appeare in the matter.
• * 1.551

  Paulus Diaco∣nus de gestis Rom. li. 8. in Leo. The Bishop of Rome depri∣ued not Leo the thirde of his tempora∣lities.
• * 1.552

  Regino in anno Dom. 655. Blondus decadis 1. lib. 10. This was a re∣bellion of the souldiers, and not a depriua∣tion of the Popes.
• * 1.553

  The Pope durst not opē∣ly be seene to take their partes howso∣euer he pri∣uatly incen∣sed or fauored this tumult.

  Naucle••us ge∣nerat. 25.
• * 1.554

  Platina in Gre∣gorie 2.
• * 1.555

  This made the Germanes and Graecians impute this rebellion to the Bishop of Rome: & per∣happes not without cause if all his pri∣uate packing had bin know∣en.

  Sabel Ennead. 8. lib. 7.
• * 1.556

  The Italians were many waies greeued with the Grae∣cians and that made them take light oc∣casions to re∣uolt.
• * 1.557

  Aeneas Sylu. in Decad. Blōd. lib. 10. Decad. 1.
• * 1.558

  The Pope cal∣leth Leo most religious Lord the last yeare of his life.
• * 1.559

  Auen. lib. 3. an∣nalium fol. 289.
• * 1.560

  Ibidē fol. 291.
• * 1.561

  Marianus in annis 727. & 741.
• * 1.562

  The Bishop of Rome did not then take vpō him to be the deposer of Princes.

  This proueth rebellion of the people against their Prince if the Iesuites will, but it concer∣neth not the Popes cen∣sures.

  The Defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.563

  The diuisiō of the Empire.
• * 1.564

  The Empire was not de∣uided for any defect in reli∣gion. Synod. Nicenae 2. actio. 2.
• * 1.565

  Ibidem epist. Adrian. ad Con∣stant. Imperat. & Iren. matrem eius.
• * 1.566

  The Pope cō∣fesseth the church of Rome to be the Greeke Emperours: in the seconde Nicene Sy∣node: and af∣ter that coun∣cel was no change of re∣ligion in Greece. The Empire was diuided by the publike decree of the Romane state and not by the Popes keyes.
• * 1.567

  Platina in Le∣one 3.

  Blondus Deca∣dis 2. lib. 1. Nau••l. volum. 3 generatio. 27. in anno 800. Sabel ennead. 8. lib. 8.

  Auen. annal. boior. lib. 4. fol. 344.
• * 1.568

  Sigeber. in ann. 801.

  The Romanes pretended the wickednes of Irene to be the cause why they forsooke the Graecians.
• * 1.569

  Otho Frisingen. lib. 5. cap. 29.
• * 1.570

  Aeneas Syluius de authoritate Romani Impe∣rij, cap. 9.
• * 1.571

  A second cause pre∣tended for the diuision of the Empire.
• * 1.572

  The indignity which the Ro∣mans concei∣ued against I∣renes vsurpa∣tion & cruel∣tie.
• * 1.573

  The diuision of the Empire maketh no∣thing for the Popes depri∣uing of Prin∣ces.
• * 1.574

  Manie realms fell from the Greeke Em∣pire before the Romanes.
• * 1.575

  Bloud. Decad. 1. lib. 10.

  Vppon what occasion the Empire was diuided, by the report of their owne stories.
• * 1.576

  The Pope him-selfe pretendeth not religion in this consul∣tation.
• * 1.577

  Helpe sought from the king of France by the common assent of the people of Rome.

  Sabel. ennead. 8. lib. 8.
• * 1.578

  Nauel. volum. 3. generat. 26. anno 753. Blond. Decad. 1. lib. 1.
• * 1.579

  The Pope had his secrete purposes in labouring the diuision of the Empire.
• * 1.580

  The Iesuites by this may proue the Romanes to be rebels if they lift, they can not proue the Pope to be the dispo∣ser of king∣doms. See Zonaras an∣nalium, lib. 3.
• * 1.581

  The Grecians were fallen to catching and fighting for the Scepter, before the Romanes shranke from them.
• * 1.582

  The Grecians depriued I∣rene as vsur∣ping the scep∣ter.
• * 1.583

  The Pope by right of his keyes had naught to doe with the Ro∣mane Empire
• * 1.584

  The people had more to do with trans∣lating the Em¦pire than the Pope.
• * 1.585

  Platina foul∣ly ouerseen in the translatiō of the empire. Plat. in Greg. 3. Nau••. volum. 2. generatio 25. anno 725. Volum. 2. gene∣ratio. 25.
• * 1.586

  Sabel. ennead. 8. lib. 8.
• * 1.587

  Habetur Auen∣tin. li. 3. fol. 888. Blondus Decad.
• * 1.588

  1. lib. 10. & Sa∣bellic. ennead. 8. lib. 8.
• * 1.589

  Platina in Gre∣gorio 3.
• * 1.590

  Suprà fol. 414.
• * 1.591

  Plat. in Greg. 3. Platina con∣tradicteth all other stories.
• * 1.592

  Sigebertus, Zo∣nar. & Cus∣pinian.
• * 1.593

  Sabel. ennead. 8. lib 8.

  Much shuf∣fling in popish writers about the diuision of the empire.
• * 1.594

  Philip & Chil∣derike depri∣ued.

  Caus. 15. quaest. 6. ¶ alius.

  Plat. in Zach. 1.
• * 1.595

  Frisingen. lib. 5. cap. 22.
• * 1.596

  Wel the Pope might make a packe, for the deposition of Childerike: but his keyes were then of no such pow∣er as to de∣pose Princes. Caus. 15. quaest. 6. ¶ alius.
• * 1.597

  Sabell. e••nead. 8. lib. 8.

  The germans consulted the Pope, whe∣ther it were lawfull for thē to depose the Prince or not. Blondus Decad. 1. lib. 10.
• * 1.598

  The whole nation depo∣sed Childerik.
• * 1.599

  Nauc. generat. 26.
• * 1.600

  Caus. 15. quaest. 6. ¶ Alius & gloss. ibidem in ver. Deposuit.
• * 1.601

  The deposing of Childerike to make Pipin king of Frāce had a further reach than e∣uerie man saw.

  The Pope and Pipin diuided the west parts of the worlde betweene them.
• * 1.602

  Auen. lib. p. 299 Zacharies an∣swere to the German Le∣gates.
• * 1.603

  This Pope claimeth no power to de∣pose Princes, but supposeth it to be lawfull for any realm to prouide themselues of a fit king.
• * 1.604

  Rom. 13. Ieroboam & the ten tribes had Gods war¦rant for their reuolt, and so had not the Germanes when they chose Pipine. When princes are vnfit for the regiment of their peo∣ple, their own Realmes and not the Pope must haue care of that defect. Extreeme fol∣lie and frensie be iust causes to remoue Princes from bearing the sworde.
• * 1.605

  The last of Pi∣pines race de∣posed for a bedlem. Regino lib. 2. anno 887. Euag. lib. 5. c. 11
• * 1.606

  Blond. Decad. 1. lib. 10. Naucl. volum. 3. gener. 26.
• * 1.607

  Sabel. ennead. 8. lib. 8.
• * 1.608

  Gag. li. 3. in Ca∣rolo Martel.
• * 1.609

  Vrss ergens. in anno 753.
• * 1.610

  Regino, lib. 2. anno 753.
• * 1.611

  The Iesuites must proue that the Pope may dispence with a lawful oth.

  The stagge∣ring of their stories make many men thinke that Childerike was no foole.
• * 1.612

  Auent. lib. 3. fol. 293. & Nau volum. 3. gene∣ratio. 26. anno 750. & Frising. lib. 5. cap. 13. This power of the Mar∣shal ouer the King made Pipin aspire to the crown.
• * 1.613

  Beda de sex ae∣tatibus mundi.

  Regino lib. 1. in anno 648.

  Marianus in Philippico.

  Frisingens. lib. 5. cap. 15.

  Vrspergens. in anno 713.
• * 1.614

  Blondus decadis 1. lib. 10. Nauc. volum. 2. gener. 23. Sabel. enne∣ad. 8. lib. 7.

  Sigebert. in anno 712.
• * 1.615

  Mo examples than these they haue not for a 1000. yeares after Christ.
• * 1.616

  The eldest of the Germane Emperours that were of∣fered depriua∣tion by the Pope, was Henrie the 4. Lewes the 3. was not depo∣sed.
• * 1.617

  Marian. in Lo∣douic. 3.

  Sabel. ennead. 9. lib. 1.

  This Lewes was not depo∣sed.
• * 1.618

  Marian. in Lo∣douic. ••3. Blondus Decad. 2. lib. 2 Marian. in Lo∣douic. filio Ar∣nulph. Platina in Be∣nedict. 4. Martinus in Arnulph. Plat. in Formos. This Lewes was neuer crowned.
• * 1.619

  The last of Pi∣pines line de∣posed for a mad man.
• * 1.620

  Blond. decad. 2. lib. 2.
• * 1.621

  Regino lib. 2. anno 888.
• * 1.622

  Blond. vt supra.
• * 1.623

  Italy forsooke the Germans & choose to themselues two kinges of their owne.
• * 1.624

  Regino lib. ••. anno 888.
• * 1.625

  Seditions and inuasions made the Ro∣manes glad af¦ter 60. yeares to submit thē∣selues againe to the Ger∣manes.
• * 1.626

  Regino lib. 2. anno 896. Decad. 2. lib. 2 Blond. Decad. •• lib 2.
• * 1.627

  An other change of the Empire, but not by the Popes keyes.
• * 1.628

  Otho Frisingen. li. 6. ca. 9. & 10.
• * 1.629

  The Romanes were no losers by often cut∣ting the Em∣pire in peeces
• * 1.630

  The Germans and Italians differ in their reckonings.
• * 1.631

  Lewes the son of Boso was not depriued by the Pope.
• * 1.632

  Otho Frisingēs. lib. 6. cap. 15.
• * 1.633

  Three Lodo∣uikes, & not one of them deposed by the Pope.
• * 1.634

  Henry the fourth was the first, that euer was offe∣red dopositiō by any Pope.
• * 1.635

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.636

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.637

  It is no sinne nor wrong, to call Gregorie the seuenth Hildebrand. The Iesuites mannerly speeches of the Emperor.
• * 1.638

  Acts. 12. vers. 22.
• * 1.639

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.640

  The contētiō between Pope Gregorie the seuenth and Henry the third Empe∣rour.
• * 1.641

  Proue the Popes right to depose Princes & we remit the successe.
• * 1.642

  That right is yet vnproued.
• * 1.643

  The praise of the person is nothing to the right of the cause.
• * 1.644

  The defence, Cap. 5.
• * 1.645

  Pope Hilde∣brand a good man.
• * 1.646

  Hildebrand might well be a dealer in Be∣rengarius re∣cantation for the goodnes of it.

  The Iesuits should con∣demne them selues if they should not cō∣mend Hilde∣brand.
• * 1.647

  Which like they better, Peter endu∣ring or Hilde∣brand displa∣cing Princes.
• * 1.648

  Lambert. Schaf. Abbas Vrsperg.
• * 1.649

  The mildnes of Pope Hil∣debrand.
• * 1.650

  What iustice call you that which the Church of Christ for 1000. yeres counted wic∣kednes?
• * 1.651

  Iude epist.
• * 1.652

  Rom. 23.
• * 1.653

  The defence, cap. 5.

  Lib. 3. cap. vlt. factorum me∣morabilium.
• * 1.654

  The testimo∣nie of the Duke of Ge∣nu•• for Pope Hildebrand.
• * 1.655

  See Vrsperpen. lib. 5. annalium.
• * 1.656

  How knew Baptista Ful∣gosius the goodnes of Hildebrand that liued 400 yeres before him?
• * 1.657

  Lib. 3. cap. 8. de Constant.
• * 1.658

  A noble mans fansie is no fit balance for this cause.
• * 1.659

  No reason that Princes rightes should be tried by Italian Dukes.
• * 1.660

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.661

  Trithem. in Chron.
• * 1.662

  If Baptista knew little of Hildebrand Trithemius knew lesse of Henry the fourth.
• * 1.663

  Trithemius a man of their side & our age is no good witnes in this case.
• * 1.664

  Dodechinus in anno 1090.
• * 1.665

  This pestilēt slaunder of Henry the 4. came first frō the mouth of a rebell that sought to sup∣plant him.
• * 1.666

  Three bishop∣rickes for one sword is no such hainous Symony.
• * 1.667

  The Iesuits are content to make their abbasses whoores, and their Bishops Sodomites, to deface this Emperour.
• * 1.668

  The greatest fautors of Hildebrand aliue at the same time with him, ne∣uer charged him with these vnclean surmises.

  Dodechinus in anno 1106.

  Marianus in anno 1075.

  He that will rebell against his Prince must be a slan∣derer of his Prince, or els he shal seeme to rebell with∣out cause.

  Vita Henrici 4. habetur in fas∣ciculo rerum sciendarum Co∣lonie impresso.

  He toucheth the very crimes that the Iesuites obiect.

  Vrsperge••s. in anno 1071.
• * 1.669

  It were easie to paint out Hildebrand in his coulors, if that were to this purpose.
• * 1.670

  Vrspergens. in anno 1076.
• * 1.671

  Vrsperg. in anno 1080.
• * 1.672

  Vrsperg. Ibidē.
• * 1.673

  The Iesuites beleeue one rebel against his Prince without pr••s••: but they will not beleeue the Bishops & Nobles of Ita∣lie & Germa∣ny iudicially pronouncing against the Pope.
• * 1.674

  Italy displea∣sed with Hen∣ry for submit∣ting himself to Hildebrand.
• * 1.675

  Lambert. Scaf∣naburgens. in anno 1077.
• * 1.676

  Al the bishops of Italie had condemned Hildebrand for capitall crimes.

  Hildebrand infamous for all vices.
• * 1.677

  Hildebrand an Apostati∣call Pope.
• * 1.678

  He that will see the rest of Hildebrāds vertues, let him read Be∣no the Cardi∣nall of his life and acts.

  The fact and not the life of Hildebrand is the thing which we striue for.

  The pope had his flatterers as well as the Prince.
• * 1.679

  Mariage in Priests and obedience to Princes im∣pugned by the names of fornication & Symonie.
• * 1.680

  Hildebrandes griefe against the Emperor.
• * 1.681

  Hildebrandes policie to quell the Em∣pe••o••.

  These aduan∣tages the Pope had a∣gainst the Prince.

  Lambert. scaf∣naburg. in anno 1077.
• * 1.682

  Hildebrands first attempt was to pull the Clergie from the king.
• * 1.683

  The next was to make him self the corre∣ctor & master of Princes.
• * 1.684

  The mysterie of iniquitie sheweth it selfe.
• * 1.685

  Men of their own religion haue obser∣ued in Hilde∣brād as much as I report.
• * 1.686

  Auent. annal. lib. 5. fol. 562.569. & sequēt.
• * 1.687

  The Iesuites trust none but Italians, & such as flatter the Pope as fast as them∣selues.
• * 1.688

  Vrspergens. in anno 1076.

  Hildebrands owne confes∣sion for what causes he did excommunicate the Em∣peror.
• * 1.689

  Henry the 4. free from Sy∣mony by the report of his verie ene∣mies.

  Lambert. Scafn. in anno 1075.
• * 1.690

  Did not this prince vehe∣mently detest Symonists?
• * 1.691

  Lambert. Scafn. Ibidem.
• * 1.692

  No prince freer in his elections thā Henry the 4.

  If the Pope had cōmitted no worse Sy∣mony than hēry the 4. did the Church had beene in better case than it is.

  The Monkes of purpose diffame the prince to flat∣ter the Pope.
• * 1.693

  Vita Henrici 4. in fasciculo re∣rūsciendarum.
• * 1.694

  Henry the 4. abused by his tutors in his minoritie.
• * 1.695

  This fault of other men is imputed to the Prince by the Moncks.
• * 1.696

  The tru cause why Hilde∣brand was of∣fended that the Prince should giue spirituall li∣uings.
• * 1.697

  This was the way to pull first the cler∣gie & after the people from the Prince.
• * 1.698

  Princes were neuer weake∣ned till their clergie tooke part with the Pope against them.
• * 1.699

  Hildebrand made it Sy∣monie for a lay man to present to a spiritual liuing.

  Platina in Gregor. 7.

  Vide caus. 16. quaesi. 7. ¶ Si quis deincept.
• * 1.700

  Lustily saide and like a Pope.

  Ibidem.
• * 1.701

  This was ne∣uer counted Symony be∣fore Hilde∣brands time.
• * 1.702

  Platina in Benedict. 2.

  The Bishop of Rome could not be chosen without the Princes con∣sent.

  Lambert. Schaf. in anno 1073.
• * 1.703

  Hildebrand whē he came to be Pope durst not be ordered with∣out the Prin∣ces pleasure.
• * 1.704

  That which Hildebrand condemned was long be∣fore cōfirmed to the Prince by the former Bishops of Rome.

  Distinct. 63. ¶ Adrianus.
• * 1.705

  Hildebrand accursed by his prede∣cessours.

  Distinct. 63. ¶ In Synod.
• * 1.706

  This was the yoke which Hildebrand could not indure.
• * 1.707

  Martin. Polon. in Adriano & Leone 9.

  Plat. in Pasc. 1. & Leon. 8.

  Sigebert. in anno 1111.
• * 1.708

  This was the chiefe quarel between Hil∣debrand and Henry the 4.
• * 1.709

  Was not this a wise cause to depriue a Prince of his Crowne?
• * 1.710

  The Prince was not boūd to appeare in the popes consistorie.

  Refusing the Popes penal∣tie is no de∣priuation in a Prince.

  Any Pastor may remit the Princes sinnes as wel as the Pope.

  Marke the stately pro∣ceedings of Hildebrand against the Emperour.
• * 1.711

  The diuell himselfe may minister as good Iustice as Hildebrād did.

  The popes arbitrarie pe∣nances are no parts of our conuersion vnto God.
• * 1.712

  The Pope abuseth the keies to in∣crease his gaine and power.
• * 1.713

  How Hilde∣brand sped with his en∣terprise.
• * 1.714

  The iust re∣ward of a re∣bel, shewed in Rodolph.

  Vrspergens. in anno 1080.
• * 1.715

  Sigebets. in anno 1080.

  Hildebrand Prophesieth against him∣selfe.
• * 1.716

  Hildebrand himselfe tur∣ned out of his Popedome.
• * 1.717

  Sigeber. in anno 1084.
• * 1.718

  Vrspergen. in anno 1083.
• * 1.719

  Siger. in anno 1085.
• * 1.720

  In vita & ge∣stis Hildebrand.
• * 1.721

  Otho Prisingens. li. 6. cap. 35.

  Depriuation of Princes ne∣uer offered by any before Hildebrande Sigeb. in anno 1088.

  This is right the Iesuites cause.
• * 1.722

  Apud Auent. lib. 5. fol. 563.
• * 1.723

  Vrspergen. in anno 1085.
• * 1.724

  The later wri∣ters of the Ro¦mish faction, to please the Pope, cōmend Hildebrand to the heauens.
• * 1.725

  Vita Henrici 4. in Fasciculo re∣rion sciendarū.
• * 1.726

  That part pu∣nished which offended.
• * 1.727

  What Hilde∣brand began, the pope that came after would neuer leaue off. Three erect•••• against Henry the 4. and all slaine.
• * 1.728

  The two sons of Hen. the 4. set vp in arms against their father.

  For this whole storie see Cus∣pinian in Hēr. 4. Auent in Annalibus: & the life of Henrie the 4. in fasciculo re¦rū sciendarū.
• * 1.729

  The Nobles shrinking frō the father to the sonne.
• * 1.730

  Henrie the 4. aided by his mortall ene∣mies when he was forsaken of his friends.
• * 1.731

  A right patern of the Romish institution.
• * 1.732

  The defence, cap. 5.

  Chron. hist. Pol. lib. 4.

  Kings of la∣ter times ex∣communica∣ted.

  Cuspin. in Hen. 4.
• * 1.733

  Cuspin. ibidem.
• * 1.734

  Bishop Stani∣slaie murde∣red by king Boleslaus.
• * 1.735

  This kings ••ct was euill, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the Popes was worse. It is a greater sinne for a sub¦iect to kill his Prince, than for a king to kill a Bishop. Cromerus de rebus Polon. lib. 4. in Boleslao.
• * 1.736

  Rebellion and murder are the fruites of the Popes deposing Princes.
• * 1.737

  We defende not the vices of Princes but examine the Popes power to depriue thē of their crownes.
• * 1.738

  God puni∣sheth Princes, though not by the Pope.
• * 1.739

  And what if the Pope be a malefactour, who shall pu∣nish him?
• * 1.740

  The keyes do not touch the crownes of Princes.
• * 1.741

  Tyrants were neuer yet re∣pressed by Priestes. 1. Sam. 22.
• * 1.742

  2. Sam. 11.
• * 1.743

  3. Reg. 21. & 18
• * 1.744

  Mat. 14.
• * 1.745

  Act. 12.
• * 1.746

  Many Princes haue beene deposed by their owne Realmes, but not by Priestes.
• * 1.747

  Princes were better to refer themselues to their realmes, if they were to choose their iudges, than to endure the Popes pride.
• * 1.748

  How Frede∣rike the first was handled.
• * 1.749

  By these artes the Pope hath growen great, & by these he yet standeth.
• * 1.750

  Psalm. 91.
• * 1.751

  The tyrānies & iniuries of Popes against Princes were infinite.
• * 1.752

  Radeui••us de gestis Frederici, lib. 10.

  Apud Naucler. volum. 3. gener. 39. anno 1156. The Popes letter to the Emperour.
• * 1.753

  A foule sinne for the prince to set his name before the Popes.

  The Pope woulde not haue the cler∣gie sweare fe∣altie to their Prince.

  The popes gaine must not be impai∣red.

  Nauel. ibidem. The mildnes of Frederikes answere to the Popes letter.

  Bishops owe fidelitie to Princes not only in res∣pect of their temporalities but of their duties to gods ordinance.
• * 1.754

  The detesta∣ble beast of prid cr••pt lōg since vnto Pe∣ters seate. Antichrist practising for life to make him selfe strong.
• * 1.755

  Abbas Vrsper∣gens. in anno 1152. & Nauc. genera. 39. anno 1158.

  The Pope cō∣triueth a mighty cōspi∣racie to resist the prince & to driue him cleane out of Italie.

  Vrsperg. in anno 1152. Naucler. generat. 39. Cu∣spinian. in Fre∣derico.

  Adrian cho∣ked with a fly.
• * 1.756

  Cuspian. in Fri∣derico 1. Cuspinian. in Frederico 2.
• * 1.757

  The Italian stories wholie bent to iustifie the Popes do∣inges and to belie the Ger∣mane Princes
• * 1.758

  In these cases I alleadge no writers but men of their own religion.
• * 1.759

  Radeuicus de gestis Frideric. 1. lib. 2. cap. 52. cap. 69. cap. 67. cap. 69. & 71.
• * 1.760

  Radeuicus de gestis Frideric. 1. lib. 2. cap. 52. cap. 69. cap. 67. cap. 69. & 71.
• * 1.761

  Radeuicus de gestis Frideric. 1. lib. 2. cap. 52. cap. 69. cap. 67. cap. 69. & 71.
• * 1.762

  Radeuicus de gestis Frideric. 1. lib. 2. cap. 52. cap. 69. cap. 67. cap. 69. & 71.
• * 1.763

  This conspi∣racy was made whiles Adrian li∣ued: before Alexanders election came in question.
• * 1.764

  The councell of Papia pro∣nounced Vi∣ctor to bee lawfully cho∣sen.

  Radeuicus de de gestis Fride∣ric. 1. lib. 2. c. 64

  Bishops had skill in the canons of the of church, which princes had not.

  Radeuic. lib. 2. cap. 67.68.70.
• * 1.765

  The greater part of the cardinals had conspired a∣gainst the Prince.
• * 1.766

  The choice of Victor.
• * 1.767

  Alexander se•• vp by the cō∣spiratours a∣gainst Victo.
• * 1.768

  Frederike did but the dutie of a christian Prince, and much lesse their ancient Emperors did in the like case.

  Victors ele∣ction was faultie, but A∣lexanders was worse.

  Alexanders e∣lection was vtterly voide.
• * 1.769

  Councels be∣fore and after did as much as this came to.
• * 1.770

  Apud Rudeuic. lib. 2. cap. 51. ca. 52.

  The causes of this conspira∣cy.
• * 1.771

  The meanes which the Pope vsed to tire the Emperour. Naucl. gener. 39. & 40. Cuspi¦nian. in Fred. 1.
• * 1.772

  Frederike ta∣med those count••ies that rebelled a∣gainst him.

  Vide Naucl. gener. 40. anno 1177.
• * 1.773

  The time for Antichrist to be exalted.
• * 1.774

  Naucl. gen. 40. anno 1177▪
• * 1.775

  The Pope is where hee would be.
• * 1.776

  Can you tell where S. Pe∣ter did wage warre vpon a∣ny priuate mā or Prince.

  Naucl. gen. 39. anno 1158.

  The Pope fighteth with Princes for earthly gaines & griefs.

  What qua∣rels the Pope hath pursued these 500. yeares.
• * 1.777

  First clergie mens liuings & then their persons must be exempted from the Prince.
• * 1.778

  How Frederik the second was handled.
• * 1.779

  Vrsper. in anno 1227.

  Blond. dec. 2. lib. 7.
• * 1.780

  Al that wic∣kednesse was the lawfull defence of his owne right.
• * 1.781

  Platina in Ho∣norio 3.
• * 1.782

  The Italians cannot de∣fend the Pope but by infor∣cing hainous crimes against the Emperors though they know none.
• * 1.783

  The causes of the Popes e∣gernes against Frederik the ••
• * 1.784

  In Henrico 3.
• * 1.785

  Decad. 2. lib. 7.
• * 1.786

  Vrspergens. in anno 1221.
• * 1.787

  The Pope did the Prince wrong though the Italians say nay.
• * 1.788

  Cuspinian. in Frederico 2.

  Cuspinians admonition of the Italian stories.
• * 1.789

  It was no smal point of Anti∣christs policie to get some that should make all ma∣ner of lies for him & his See.
• * 1.790

  Gregories fu∣rie against this Emperor.
• * 1.791

  Note the pie∣tie of Popes.
• * 1.792

  So had you neede to say; for if you grāt them to bee ••ru••, the pope could be litle lesse than a diuell incar∣nate.
• * 1.793

  Naucler. gener. 41 anno 1229. The Italians would faine pretēd other causes to saue the Popes hone∣stie: th••se be so shameful, that they blush to hear them.
• * 1.794

  Naucler. Ibidē. The Pope would not ad∣mit the Prin∣ces embassa∣dors to proue their masters sicknesse. This was no pride.
• * 1.795

  Vrstergen. in anno 1227.
• * 1.796

  The Pope did hinder the Prince from going, & yet excommuni∣cated him for not going.

  Naucler. gener. ••1. anno 1226.
• * 1.797

  The Popes keies were euer ready a∣gainst the Prince, but neuer against those that molested the Prince.

  Vrspergen. in anno 1228.
• * 1.798

  Vrsper. ••odem anno

  The Pope in∣uadeth the Emperours dominions whiles he was fighting a∣gainst the Turke.

  What was this but to betraie the christians to the Turke••

  Vrspergen. in anno 1229.

  The Pope is angry that the prince retur∣neth with peace and vi∣ctory.
• * 1.799

  Nau••. l. genera••. 41. anno 1228. The pope stir¦reth the prin∣ces souldiers to rebell a∣gainst him when he was incamped a∣gainst the Turke.
• * 1.800

  Though this Prince suffe∣red al these wrongs at the Popes hands, yet the Italiās raile mightily on him and magnifie the Pope in al his doings.
• * 1.801

  Blondus in fa∣uor of the Pope dealeth very spitefully with Frederik the second.
• * 1.802

  Naucl. gene. 41. anno 1229.
• * 1.803

  Blondus hel∣peth Pope Gregories tale.
• * 1.804

  ••londus Decad. 2. lib. 7.
• * 1.805

  Blondus false s••rmise of Fre∣derike.
• * 1.806

  What wil not Italian wittes doe when they be dis∣pleased?

  Platina in Gregorio 9.
• * 1.807

  Frederike re∣couered the kingdome of Ierusalem frō the Turke.
• * 1.808

  The Pope grieued with the Princes returne, be∣cause his pre∣sence would hinder the Popes pra∣ctises.
• * 1.809

  The Prince had been well occupied to stand fighting for Christes sepulcher, whiles the Pope spoiled him in the meane time of his king∣dome at home.

  The holy land did the Pope good seruice.
• * 1.810

  The Pope rather en∣creased than resisted the Turks power.
• * 1.811

  The Pope himselfe spoi∣led the west Empire & betraied the East to the Turke.

  Italy shaken into shiuers by the Pope. And so like∣wise Germa∣ny.
• * 1.812

  The Emperor dieted lest he should get strength to wrastle with the Pope.

  The holy lād vsed as a cōti∣nuall issue to weakē christi∣an Princes left they shuld stirre against the Pope at home.

  The Pope would neuer a••sist the Gre∣cians against the Turke.
• * 1.813

  The Grecians were deliue∣red as a pray to the Turke by the Pope and his adhe∣rents.
• * 1.814

  The price of one dinner at the Popes table, and yet Blondus thinketh it was to good cheape.
• * 1.815

  Blondu•• decad. 2. lib. 7.
• * 1.816

  The Princes deputie did but defend his masters right & inhe∣ritance while he was in his voiage a∣gainst the Turke.

  The Pope after the re∣ceit of so much mony persued the Emperour worse than before.
• * 1.817

  They came into the field against him as if he had been a Turk•• why should not he recō∣pence them as rebels?
• * 1.818

  The crosse first vsed a∣gainst infidels for Christs glorie, the Pope turneth against Chri∣stiā Princes to reuenge his priuate en∣mitie.

  The cause of the second quarel be∣tweene the Pope & this Emperour.
• * 1.819

  The pope first armed the subiectes a∣gainst their Prince & thē deposed him for seeking to subdue them with force of armes that rebelled a∣gainst him.
• * 1.820

  Platina in Gregor. 9.
• * 1.821

  Blondus decad. 25. lib. 7.
• * 1.822

  Naucl. generat. 42. anno 1238.

  The originall of this second war betweene the Prince & the Pope.

  The Popes legates were in the field against Fre∣derike, when the Prince came to reco∣uer his own.
• * 1.823

  Gregory nou∣rished the cō∣spiracy which Adrian made to keepe the Emperor out of Italie.
• * 1.824

  The Popes peace was this, that the Emperor should loose all his right in Italie.

  Naucler. gener. 40. anno 1183. The Prince perceiuing the Popes purpose, would make no such peace.

  How needfull it was for the Prince not to giue ouer his right in Italie.
• * 1.825

  The Italians hate the Ger∣mane Empe∣rours.
• * 1.826

  Platina in Gregorio 9.
• * 1.827

  What pranks were plaid with Frede∣ricke before he ••ought reuenge.
• * 1.828

  The Princes cause being good, his re∣uēge was both lawfull and needfull.
• * 1.829

  This Prince of all others most wicked∣ly abused by Popes.

  Naucler. gener. 42. anno 1242.
• * 1.830

  Sexti Decretal. lib. 2. de senten. & reiudicat. ¶ ad Apostolice § & vt ad.
• * 1.831

  Fredericke charged with periurie.

  Sext. Decret. li. 2. vt supra.
• * 1.832

  The Pope chargeth the Prince with periurie for repressing that rebellion which the Pope fauored. With Sacri∣lege.
• * 1.833

  The Pope maketh it Sa∣crilege for a Prince to im∣prisō a rebel∣lious priest.
• * 1.834

  Naucler. gener. 42. anno 1240.
• * 1.835

  With heresie.
• * 1.836

  The Pope proceedeth against the Emperour v∣pon suspition. With iniurie. Frederik offe∣red no wrong in defending his owne.

  Sexti Decret. li. 2. vt supra.
• * 1.837

  Naucler. gener. 38. anno 1137.
• * 1.838

  Naucler. gener. 38. anno 1138.
• * 1.839

  The King of Sicilie con∣spireth a∣gainst the Em¦peror to keep him from re∣couering his right in Si∣cilie.
• * 1.840

  Naucler. gener. 40. anno 1186.
• * 1.841

  Naucler. gener. 40. anno 1193. & 1194.
• * 1.842

  Fredericke the second had a double right to Si∣cilie.

  Vide Naucler. anno 1138. & 1210.

  The Pope had only a pēsion out of Sicilie.
• * 1.843

  The soūdnes of the Popes cēsure against the Prince.
• * 1.844

  What iustice Princes may looke for in the Popes consistorie.
• * 1.845

  The Pope, a verie pat••ent & discreet Iudge. Na••xl••••. gener. 42. anno 1246.
• * 1.846

  Would it not doe Princes good to haue such a ioylie Iudge?
• * 1.847

  Naucler. gener. 42. anno 1242. The Popes power to de∣pose Princes vtt••rly deni∣ed in those daies.

  What a fier the popes pro∣ceeding s••••dled in Italie. Naucler. gener. 42. anno 1240.
• * 1.848

  Blondus decad. 2. lib. 7.
• * 1.849

  Horrible tu∣mults ensued this depositiō of Frederike.
• * 1.850

  Germanie re∣iecteth the Popes pro∣ceedings against Fride∣rike.
• * 1.851

  Auent. annal. boior. lib. 7. fol. 675.
• * 1.852

  What germa∣nie thought of the Popes enterprise.
• * 1.853

  Auent. lib. 7. fol. 674.
• * 1.854

  What inter∣tainment the Popes nunci∣oes had in Germanie.
• * 1.855

  Auent. lib. 7. fol. 677.
• * 1.856

  The Popes agent accur∣sed in euery Church as a pestilēt arch-heretike.
• * 1.857

  Auent. annal. lib. 7. fol. 683.
• * 1.858

  The Pope liuelie descri∣bed in his colours.

  The Romish warfare.
• * 1.859

  Ibidem, fol. 684.
• * 1.860

  Hildebrand the first layer of this plot.
• * 1.861

  Ibidem.
• * 1.862

  What the Pope seeketh for, by war∣ring with P••inces.
• * 1.863

  The seruant of seruaunts affecteth to be Lord of Lords.
• * 1.864

  The right portraiture of the Pope.
• * 1.865

  He was ele∣cted 1200.
• * 1.866

  The Bishops of their owne religiō haue detested the Popes pride in deposing Princes.
• * 1.867

  Naucler. gener. 42. anno 1247.
• * 1.868

  The new elect against Fre∣dericke had smal ioy of their promo∣tion.
• * 1.869

  Cuspinian. in Frideric. 2.
• * 1.870

  The Popes weapons against Princes.
• * 1.871

  Naucler. gener. 44. anno 1313.
• * 1.872

  Lodouike deposed with∣out all cause.
• * 1.873

  Platina in Clemente 5.
• * 1.874

  Be not these weighty cau∣ses to depose a Prince?
• * 1.875

  Naucler. gener. 44. anno 1314. Auent. lib. 7. fol. 748.
• * 1.876

  Lodouickes election.
• * 1.877

  Naucler. Ibid.
• * 1.878

  The Pope de∣posed the prince becaus he would not looke on, whiles the Popes factiō did ransacke the Empire.
• * 1.879

  Naucler. gener. 45. anno 1324.
• * 1.880

  The Pope calleth his furious factiō the Church.
• * 1.881

  Naucler. gener. 45. anno 1324.
• * 1.882

  Pope Iohns doings misli∣ked both of lawiers and diuines.
• * 1.883

  Naucler. gener. 45. anno 1335.
• * 1.884

  And by his own successor.
• * 1.885

  Naucler. gener. 45. anno 1338.
• * 1.886

  Al the prelats and Prin∣ces of Ger∣manie tooke with Lodo∣uike against the Pope.
• * 1.887

  Naucler. gener. 45. anno 1338.

  Thes•• princi∣ples were de∣fended by the Emperor & al his adherēts.
• * 1.888

  Auent. lib. 7. fol. 761.
• * 1.889

  Pope Iohns proceedings repugnant to the Lawes of God.
• * 1.890

  Defensor pacis Marsil. Patin.
• * 1.891

  The Pope maketh it he∣resie to speake against his pride.
• * 1.892

  Naucler. gener. 45. anno 1338. Naucler. Ibid.
• * 1.893

  He••esie to denie the Popes tempo∣ral dominion.
• * 1.894

  Rom. 13. Luke. ••2.
• * 1.895

  And so was it to speake a∣gainst his wastful and excessiue wealth.
• * 1.896

  Caus. 12. quae••t. 1. ¶ dilectissi••••. Sexti Decretal. lib. 5. de verb. significat. cap. 3.
• * 1.897

  Platina in Ioan. 23.
• * 1.898

  Platina liketh not pope Iohns decre∣tal against the Franciscanes.
• * 1.899

  What the Franciscanes ment by their assertion.
• * 1.900

  Why the Pope could not digest their doctrine
• * 1.901

  The Pope peruerted the meaning of the wretched Friers.
• * 1.902

  The Pope would no peace with Lodouicke but on such conditions as no Swine-heard would accept.
• * 1.903

  Naucler. gener. 45. anno 1343.
• * 1.904

  Where he should be sure to be well vsed.
• * 1.905

  Naucler. gener. 45. anno 1344.
• * 1.906

  The Germans would suffer no such sub∣mission.
• * 1.907

  A pact made by the Pope to choose an other Empe∣rour.
• * 1.908

  Auēt. lib. 7. fol. 785.
• * 1.909

  The germans sweare afresh to Lodouike after the pope had deposed him.
• * 1.910

  Auent. lib 7. fol 787. Naucler. gener. 45. an. 1346.
• * 1.911

  Fredericke drenched.
• * 1.912

  Naucler. gener. 45. an. 1347.
• * 1.913

  Cuspinian in Friderico. 2.
• * 1.914

  Naucler. anno 1347.
• * 1.915

  Naucler. anno 1348
• * 1.916

  Naucler. anno 1350.
• * 1.917

  An other elect poi∣soned.
• * 1.918

  King Iohns cause.
• * 1.919

  Fructus tem∣porum, lib. 7. Gualterus, He∣mingfordus, Gi∣sburnens.

  The monkes turne this poyson to a surfeit.

  Polydor. lib. 15. Anglicae histo∣rie in Iohanne.
• * 1.920

  Stephen Langhtons election.
• * 1.921

  Matth. Paris. anno 1207.
• * 1.922

  The Pope dis∣anulled both, because he would place a Cardinall of his owne.

  Matth. Paris. anno 1207.
• * 1.923

  The monkes forced for feare to chose Stephen Langhton at Rome.
• * 1.924

  The goodnes of this electi∣on must hang on the Popes infinite power otherwise it had neither lawe nor con∣science.
• * 1.925

  This prelate became after a pestilent e∣nimie to king Iohn.
• * 1.926

  Matth. Paris in anno 1215. saith, coniurati Steph. Archiep. capital. consent. habuerunt.
• * 1.927

  Matt. Paris anno 1212.

  The Bishops of England incense the Pope against their king.
• * 1.928

  Why shoulde the clergy haue their li∣uinges, if they would not dis∣charge their duties?
• * 1.929

  Matt. Paris in anno 1208.

  The king al∣lowed his cler¦gy food and raiment, so that hee bar∣red them on∣ly of their a∣bundance. Interdicting of whole realmes wrap peth innocēts as well as nocents.
• * 1.930

  Interdicting God to bee publikely ser∣ued, is the high waie to increase the kingdom of Satan.
• * 1.931

  The right meaning of their Romish interdicts.
• * 1.932

  The execu∣tors of such interdicts as bad as the pronouncers.
• * 1.933

  Matth. Paris. anno 1212.

  By this bait the Pope drue many ambiti∣ous princes to serue his turne.

  Not so much as the Popes pride & fury, but it must be shrewded with the name of the Catholike Church.

  Matth. 3.
• * 1.934

  Romish deuo∣tion the very mother of di∣uelish rebelliō
• * 1.935

  Matth. Paris. anno 1213.
• * 1.936

  Were nor these good subiectes?
• * 1.937

  The King of France would fain haue had the Crowne of England, & in that respect tooke the Popes offer. fol. 95.
• * 1.938

  By the dissen∣tion & ambi∣tiō of Princes the Pope grew to be Lord ouer them.
• * 1.939

  Feare of the French King draue King Iohn to put his necke vn∣der the popes g••rdle.
• * 1.940

  The Pope gate the king∣dome of Eng∣land for him¦selfe.

  Mat. paris. in anno 1213. § hijs ita gestis.
• * 1.941

  The Pope a skilfull fisher for kingdoms.
• * 1.942

  King Iohn fa••med his crowne of the Pope by a yerely rent.
• * 1.943

  The Pope shewed fauor to King Iohn, but most of al to himselfe.
• * 1.944

  The pope had as much right to the crowne of England, as a thiefe hath by the high waies side to an other mans purse.

  Mat. Paris. in anno 1213. § rebus, vt iam dictum est.
• * 1.945

  The king might binde himselfe, but not his suc∣cessors to these condi∣tions.

  The Barons of this realme detested the kings act.
• * 1.946

  Matth. Paris. anno 1216. § sub hiis diebu••.
• * 1.947

  Much lesse successours.
• * 1.948

  Matth. Paris. anno 1216. § Cum{que} omnes. The cōplaint of the Barons against the Pope and the king.

  Marcidi ribal∣di.
• * 1.949

  Matth. Paris. anno 1216. § Circa hos•• dies▪
• * 1.950

  The end of all the Popes de∣uises.
• * 1.951

  No King of England euer acknowleged this subiectiō to the Pope. The Kings of England most of all others kept the Pope shortest from infringing the liberties of their Crowne. The pope had a 1000. marks land giuen him by King Iohn, part whereof the Pope solde after to Williā wickham.
• * 1.952

  Polidor. Angli. hist. lib. 15. in Ioan.

  King Iohn burdened him selfe & not the Prin∣ces after him.
• * 1.953

  The defence cap. 5.

  George died King of Bohe∣mia, notwith∣standing the Popes practi∣ses and Ma∣thias forces.

  Cromer. de gestis Polonor. li. 27.
• * 1.954

  Cromer. eodem libro.
• * 1.955

  The Pope verie liberal in giuing king¦doms that be none of his.
• * 1.956

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.957

  The King of Nauarre.

  Princes con∣tent to take part with the Pope so long as it maketh for their pro∣fit.
• * 1.958

  Guicciard. hist. lib. 18.
• * 1.959

  Charles loked through his fingers and saide he saw nothing.
• * 1.960

  Guicci. li. 11. Ferdinand lacking a bet∣ter title pretē∣ded the popes Bull for that part of Na∣uarre which lay so neere him.
• * 1.961

  Right & force do not alwaies meete.
• * 1.962

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.963

  Henry the 2 & Tho. Becket.
• * 1.964

  Beckets qua∣rell must be good before he can be blessed.
• * 1.965

  Appeales to the Pope, & immunitie of wicked Priests were the qua∣rel that Bec∣ket stoode in.
• * 1.966

  Beckets fact damnable for these three respects vnlesse the Ie∣suites proue those lawes which he with stood, to be repugnant to the word of God.

  Such proude prelates are likeliest to be of your Ro∣mish rel••gion.
• * 1.967

  Becket farre from a martyr
• * 1.968

  The Church of Rome were to be blamed if she did not honor Becket
• * 1.969

  The popes practise to subdue Prin∣ces.
• * 1.970

  Princes puni∣shed for the neglect of trueth & dis∣cord that rai∣gned amōgest them.
• * 1.971

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.972

  No King of England de∣posed by the Pope but only King Iohn.

  The Kings of Fraunce were too good for the Pope.

  Philip King of Fraunce.
• * 1.973

  Nauel. gener. 44. anno 1300.
• * 1.974

  Gagu. in Phil. pulchro. Platina in Bonifacio 8. Platina Ibidē. Gaguin. lib. 7. in Phil. pulchr.

  How Philip of France hand∣led Bonifaci∣us, see part 1. fol. 95
• * 1.975

  Lewes King of France.

  Massaed. in an. 1510.

  The Realme of France in this our age despised the Popes cēsure against their King.

  Velleij ad Gag. agge••. in Lodou. 12.

  The Pope will be tried by the sword and not by the word.
• * 1.976

  The Pope no pastor but a warrier.
• * 1.977

  All the Ger∣mane Empe∣rours that were offered depriuation by the Pope, are alreadie recited.
• * 1.978

  Philip of Sue∣uia and Otho the 5.
• * 1.979

  Vrspergens. in anno 1197.
• * 1.980

  The Pope would not ac∣knowledge this Philip for Emperor.
• * 1.981

  Idē in an. 1198.
• * 1.982

  Naucler. gener. 44 anno 1195.

  Otho erected against Philip.
• * 1.983

  Cuspinian. in Phil. Caesar.

  Frederikes election ratifi∣ed to spite Otho.
• * 1.984

  Fredericke in greater ha∣tred with the Pope than either of the former.
• * 1.985

  What follow∣ed of these garboiles.
• * 1.986

  Vrspergens. in anno 1198. §. audiui to tem∣pore.
• * 1.987

  Ibidem § pro∣perant electi. Dispencing with othes is the Diuels art.
• * 1.988

  Ibidem ¶ iam tunc Colon. The Pope gained by al this.
• * 1.989

  As true a song as any the Hunnal hath.
• * 1.990

  Blondus decad. 2. lib. 10.
• * 1.991

  Blondus Ibidē & Naucl. gene∣rat. 46. an. 1355

  The Pope would not suffer the Em∣perour to come neere Italy.
• * 1.992

  Blondus & Naucler. vt supra.
• * 1.993

  The Emperor as glad to be gone as the Pope to haue him goe.
• * 1.994

  Blondus decad. 2. lib. 10.
• * 1.995

  The Prince sold all the Emperour had both in Italie & Ger∣manie.
• * 1.996

  The price of a voice in the election of the Emperor.
• * 1.997

  Aeneas Siluius histor. Bohem. cap. 32.
• * 1.998

  The Romane Empire come vtterly to no∣thing.
• * 1.999

  Vēcelaus put from the Em∣pire as vnfit to rule.
• * 1.1000

  Cuspinian•• in Vencelao.
• * 1.1001

  For a 1000. yeares no such thing offered: to this present day no such thing acknow∣ledged.
• * 1.1002

  In all these examples infi¦nite numbers of their own religion haue stoode with Princes a∣gainst the Pope.
• * 1.1003

  We may not leaue the pre∣cepts of the holy Ghost and the anci∣ent obediēce of Christs Church to follow these fierbrands of hell.

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.1004

  Gregorie the first n••uer dreampt of deposing Princes.
• * 1.1005

  The def••nce, cap. 5.

  An excōmu∣cation of S. Gregorie vpō Kings and Pri••ces.

  In fine libri 12. epist.
• * 1.1006

  In fine 12. lib epist. ibidem.
• * 1.1007

  Gregorie had no more pow∣er to depose Princes than he had to damne thē.
• * 1.1008

  Gregories wordes are a curse, & not a iudicial sen∣tence.
• * 1.1009

  Euerie doner hath the like wordes in his graunt. Ibidem.
• * 1.1010

  Ibidem.
• * 1.1011

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.1012

  In eodem priui∣legio.
• * 1.1013

  Gregories act nothing like the Iesuites.
• * 1.1014

  King Iohn lost the harts of his Nobles before these troubles be∣ganne.

  Matth. Paris. anno 1203.
• * 1.1015

  Matth. Paris in anno 1213.
• * 1.1016

  King Iohn thought it ea∣sier to loose a 1000. markes by the yeare than to fight for his Crown and state.
• * 1.1017

  Matt. Paris. Ibidem ¶ Rex denique Iohan.
• * 1.1018

  Ibidē. ¶ Dum autem Rex.
• * 1.1019

  Matth. Paris. anno 1215.
• * 1.1020

  〈◊〉〈◊〉 ••••ins epist.
• * 1.1021

  The Nobles pursued King Iohn after his reconciliation to the Pope, wo••se than before.
• * 1.1022

  Anno 13.

  Richardi 2.

  King Ri∣chard made it death to bring any processe from Rome to im∣pugne the lawes of his realme, for benefices and patronages.
• * 1.1023

  25. Edwardi 3.
• * 1.1024

  To warre a∣gainst the King is treasō in subiects, though it be for religion.
• * 1.1025

  Is not this giuing cōfort to the Queenes enimies?
• * 1.1026

  The perswa∣ders be trai∣tours as well as the doers.
• * 1.1027

  And yet your adherents bare armes against King Iohn and the Germane Princes for meere priuate and earthly quarels.
• * 1.1028

  Edward the 3. neuer ment to be deposed by the Pope, why therefore should not warre to de∣pose him, be treasō against him?
• * 1.1029

  It was wise∣dome in king Edward not to name the Pope, and yet the quarell includeth the Pope.
• * 1.1030

  The King and the commons in opē parlia∣ment ioyne to defend the lawes and li∣berties of the realm against the Pope by name.
• * 1.1031

  28. Edwardi 3.

  The consoci∣ation of King Edward a∣gainst the Pope.
• * 1.1032

  16. Richardi 2.

  The people offer to defēd their Prince against the Pope.
• * 1.1033

  The Crowne of England not subiect to the Bishop of Rome.

  The commōs will be with their king in all cases at∣tēpted against him, his crown, and re∣galitie: could they then suffer him to be deposed?
• * 1.1034

  The defence, cap. 5.

  The oth of the Kings of England at their corona∣tion.
• * 1.1035

  Kings sweare to defend the faith & assist the Church.
• * 1.1036

  Leges Edwardi Regis, cap. 17.

  The Prince sworne to go∣uern the church of her Kingdome.
• * 1.1037

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.1038

  In vita S. Thomae.
• * 1.1039

  Thomas of Canterburie put others in mind of their promises & forgot his own oth.
• * 1.1040

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.1041

  Zonar. tomo 3. & Cuspinian. in Anast. & in Zimisce.
• * 1.1042

  The Patriach once or twise required of him that should be crowned a confession of his faith.

  Euthemius & Anastasius.
• * 1.1043

  Zonar. in Anast. Dicoro.

  The Prince banished the patriarch.
• * 1.1044

  Anastasius not deposed though he brake the pro∣mise made at his coronatiō
• * 1.1045

  Niceph. and Michaell.
• * 1.1046

  Zonar. in Mi∣chael. Rangab.
• * 1.1047

  The patriarks fact had the peoples consent.
• * 1.1048

  He that crow∣neth is not superiour to him that is crowned.
• * 1.1049

  Polieuctus & Zimisces.
• * 1.1050

  Zonar. in Ioh. Zimisce.
• * 1.1051

  Zonar. in Ni∣ceph. Phoca.
• * 1.1052

  Zonar. in Zi∣misce.

  The Patri∣arch would not suffer a murderer that aspired to the crowne to enter the Church be∣fore some re∣compence were made.
• * 1.1053

  Zimisces kil∣led the King and defiled the Queene.
• * 1.1054

  Isaac Comme∣nus.
• * 1.1055

  Zonar. in Mich. Stratio.
• * 1.1056

  A fit presidēt for the Ies.
• * 1.1057

  Zonar. in Isaac. Commeno.
• * 1.1058

  An other Hil∣debrand.
• * 1.1059

  The defence, cap. 5.

  In what ca••es subiects may breake with their Princes.
• * 1.1060

  Baptisme ma∣keth not prin∣ces depriuea∣ble by the Pope.
• * 1.1061

  Reuolt frō the faith is punish¦able in Prin∣ces, but not by man.
• * 1.1062

  Baptism bind∣eth no mā to corporall or temporall losses of land or life.
• * 1.1063

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.1064

  Bishops haue nothing to doe with the Crownes of Princes.
• * 1.1065

  Inunction maketh not the Prince subiect to the Priest.

  Annointing is a seruice, not a superioritie to the prince.
• * 1.1066

  The Bishop is to declare gods will and not his owne vnto Princes at their coro∣nation.
• * 1.1067

  The Iesuites would haue Princes hold their crownes by Indenture.
• * 1.1068

  Deut. 17.
• * 1.1069

  Edwardi Lege•• cap. 17.
• * 1.1070

  The breach of couenants is no depriua∣tion.

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.1071

  The people may not breake with their Princes though Prin∣ces breake with God.
• * 1.1072

  If two sweare to do•• any thing, and one breake his ••th, shall the other be excu∣••ed before God if he fol∣low that ex∣ample?
• * 1.1073

  It is against the Law of God & nature for subiects to punish their Princes.
• * 1.1074

  Rom. 13. And strangers haue lesse to do with their Crownes.
• * 1.1075

  Depo••ition of late yeres attempted, but not agni∣sed to this present day.
• * 1.1076

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.1077

  Extra. commu. de maioritat. & obedient. ¶ vnā sanct•••• in addi••. Petri Bern. § respon∣deo & di••••.
• * 1.1078

  2. Cor. 22.
• * 1.1079

  2. Cor. 4.
• * 1.1080

  If Iesuits may not rebell, their saluatiō is vnsufficiēt in their iudge∣ments.
• * 1.1081

  Re••••lat. 13.
• * 1.1082

  2. Cor. 1••.
• * 1.1083

  The Iesuites impatient to see thēselues disappointed.
• * 1.1084

  The defence, cap. 5. The example of a Prince most dange∣rous.
• * 1.1085

  God hath prouided pa∣tience for his saints, not vi∣olence to cō∣quere tyrants.
• * 1.1086

  Mat. 10.
• * 1.1087

  Mat. 10.
• * 1.1088

  Luke. 21.
• * 1.1089

  Rom. 13.
• * 1.1090

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 1.1091

  The Iesuites would fain be heathens.
• * 1.1092

  The Pope encourageth subiects to kill their princes.
• * 1.1093

  Exod. 20. Rom. 3.
• * 1.1094

  Rom. 13.
• * 1.1095

  Cardinal Co∣mos letter for the mur∣dering of her Maiestie.
• * 3.1

  That resoluti∣on was to kill the Queene, as PARRY himselfe con∣fessed.

  A passing good spirite that leadeth subiects to murder their Princes. Holinesse fit for your holy father.
• * 3.2

  The holy ghost abhor∣reth the mur∣der of Prin∣ces. 1. Sam. 26. Rom. 13.
• * 3.3

  1. Peter. 2.
• * 3.4

  The Iesuits allow that Princes shuld be murdered. Williā Chrei∣ctons letter to sir FRANCIS WALSING∣HAM. PARRYES confession vn∣der his own handwriting to the prince. The murde∣ring of Prin∣••es allowed by their de∣fence of Ca∣tholikes.
• * 3.5

  The defence▪ cap. 5.
• * 3.6

  He that may fight, may kill.
• * 3.7

  War against the Prince & murthering of the prince are ineuitable consequents
• * 3.8

  The Prince directly im∣pugned by the Iesuits arms.
• * 3.9

  The Pharisies did but cēsure Christ when they put him to death. Acts. 7.
• * 3.10

  As though the church could be holie that contradicteth the holy Ghost.
• * 3.11

  Vnfit weapō•• for Christian men, but fit for Iesuites & heathens.
• * 3.12

  Rom. 12.
• * 3.13

  The defence, cap. 5. Our bond to Christ more than to our Prince.
• * 3.14

  We may yeeld God his due with out re∣belling a∣gainst the Prince: marry that is by suf∣fering the Princes plea∣sure which the Iesuites cannot brook.
• * 3.15

  The Iesuites in no wise can away with this submissiō to the swordes of Princes: & therfore they imagine Prin∣ces may be deposed: & by that coulor also resisted.
• * 3.16

  The defence, cap. 5. How man and wife may de∣part for Christ. Theod. L. Man. de haere••.
• * 3.17

  Cap. ••in. Ex••••. de haere••.
• * 3.18

  Husbands, Parents and Masters loose not their right by Gods Law though they be he∣retikes.
• * 3.19

  The Iesuits would punish Princes in the same sort that princes pu∣nish their subiects.
• * 3.20

  Heresie dissol∣ueth not ma∣trimonie. 1. Cor. 7.
• * 3.21

  Mat. 19.
• * 3.22

  The subiects more bound to the Prince than the ser∣uant is to his master.
• * 3.23

  The Prince may discharge the seruant; but no man cā discharge the subiect. 1. Pet. 2.
• * 3.24

  The Apostles neither did nor could set seruants free from their ma¦sters for any cause.
• * 3.25

  No law giueth the sonne leaue to disho¦nor or dishe∣rite his fa∣ther.
• * 3.26

  The defence, cap. 5.
• * 3.27

  If Princes may not be deposed, ergo ciuill warre to displace them is a wicked & wilful rebelliō against God & his ordi∣nance.
• * 3.28

  The defence, cap. 4. The Prote∣stants opiniō & practise for deposition of Princes in case of false Religion.
• * 3.29

  Tertul. de Virg. velandis.
• * 3.30

  The Iesuits abuse the names of pro∣testants for the colou••ing of their con∣spiracies.
• * 3.31

  The defence. cap. 5. In Dan. cap. 6. vers. 22.25.
• * 3.32

  The doctrine of Father CALVINE.
• * 3.33

  Caluine wre∣sted by the Iesuites.
• * 3.34

  Caluine saith Princes haue no power to commaund a∣gainst God, but he doth not say that subiects may displace them with armes.
• * 3.35

  Not a word of vsing weapon or violence in all that place of Caluine.
• * 3.36

  Dan. 6. Caluin. in 6. Dan. vers. 22. He defended his Innocen∣cie with reue∣rent words, as euerie subiect may, not with violent wea∣pons.
• * 3.37

  The defence, cap. 4. The doctrine of brother Beza.
• * 3.38

  In editione anno 1564. The opinion of the congre∣gation art. 39.
• * 3.39

  The battaile of Druze.
• * 3.40

  The Nobles of France re∣pressed the furie of the Guise, the king being vnder age.
• * 3.41

  The King had neither age nor Lawe to licence the Guise to murder his people. L••x Salica.
• * 3.42

  Bezaes iudge∣ment of bea∣ring armes against the Prince out of his own works.
• * 3.43

  Beza in confessi∣one fidei Christi∣anae & eiusdem cum Papisticis erroribus Colla∣tione, cap. 5. sect. 45.
• * 3.44

  Ibidem, cap. 5. sectio. 45.
• * 3.45

  Priuatmē may disobay a wic∣ked p••ince but not bear arms against him. To you Sir slanderer.
• * 3.46

  The warres of the Frēch mi∣nisters lewdly peruerted by the Iesuites.
• * 3.47

  If the supreme dominion of God be viola∣ted by the cō∣maundement of any prince, that precept may bee well disobeied but not the prince displaced.
• * 3.48

  Infidels must be obaied so farre forth as their precepts tend not to the dishonour of Gods holie name.
• * 3.49

  Mat. 5.
• * 3.50

  The defence, cap. 4. The defence of Zuing. lib. 4. epist. Zuing. & O••col. fol. 186. 4. Reg. 21.
• * 3.51

  Art. 42. explan. fol. 84.
• * 3.52

  The manifest for••es of cō∣mon wealthes make diuerse men speake diuersly of the magistrates sword.
• * 3.53

  Germanie a free state, and the Emperors authoritie li∣mited by the Lawes of the Empire.
• * 3.54

  The germans proportion their speaches according to the state of their country.
• * 3.55

  Zuinglius mēt this of Prin∣ces elected & limited.
• * 3.56

  1. Sam. 14.
• * 3.57

  1. Chron. 13. 1. Kings. 12.
• * 3.58

  Ierem. 26.
• * 3.59

  God neuer required the people to dis∣place their King, but not to consent to his wickednes
• * 3.60

  Explanat. ar∣ticulo 42.
• * 3.61

  Ibidem. A tyrant in∣heriting may not be displa∣ced by Zuing∣lius opinion.
• * 3.62

  Ibidem. Princes may neither be murdered nor assaulted with any tumult by Zuinglius iudgement.
• * 3.63

  Ibidem.
• * 3.64

  Ibidem.
• * 3.65

  Succession most vsual in christian king∣domes and allowed by God himselfe.
• * 3.66

  Psal. 132.
• * 3.67

  1. Sam. 13.
• * 3.68

  2. Kings. 10.
• * 3.69

  The defence, cap. 4.
• * 3.70

  Goodmans opinion. Cap. 14. à pag. 204. ad pag. 212.

  Goodmans priuate opini∣on long since corrected by him selfe, can∣not preiudice the whole realme.

  Goodmā did not hold that lawful Prin∣ces might be thrust frō ther Crownes, but that Queene MARY was no lawful ma∣gistrate.
• * 3.71

  The defence, cap. 5.

  The iudge∣mēt of the Scottish mi∣nisterie.

  Iohn Knokes Ibidē pag. 77.
• * 3.72

  Sleid. lib. 17.
• * 3.73

  Sleid. lib. 19.
• * 3.74

  lib. 21.
• * 3.75

  The defence, cap. 4.

  The opinion and definitiō of Luther. Sled. hist. li. 8.
• * 3.76

  Lib. 21.
• * 3.77

  Lib. 22.
• * 3.78

  What Luther taught of obe∣dience to magistrates.
• * 3.79

  Sleid. lib. 8.

  The Gospel doth not bar the politike lawes of any countrie.
• * 3.80

  Sleid. lib. 8.
• * 3.81

  The Lawes of the Empire permit resi∣stance.
• * 3.82

  Sleid. lib. 18. not the 21. as you quote.

  The states of Germany not subiect to the Emperour but with conditiō.
• * 3.83

  Sleid. 22.
• * 3.84

  This is true in free States but not in ab∣solute sub∣iectes.
• * 3.85

  The differēce betwene the Ies. & the Ger∣manes resi∣stance.
• * 3.86

  No law per∣mitteth the Pope to de∣pose Princes, but that which is of his owne ma∣king.
• * 3.87

  The defence, cap. 4.
• * 3.88

  The rage of popish perse∣cutors is able to set good men besides their byas.
• * 3.89

  There is great diuersi∣tie in bearing armes, though we allow none if the lawes of the Land do not warrant the same.
• * 3.90

  In some cases the nobles & cōmons may stand for the publike regi∣ment & lawes of their Coū∣trie.
• * 3.91

  Christian Kingdomes may settle their States with common consent of Prince and people, which the Prince alone cānot alter.
• * 3.92

  The Princes sword is his law & not his lust.
• * 3.93

  Princes may be staied frō tyranny by their owne realms, though not deposed.
• * 3.94

  Germanie.
• * 3.95

  Flaunders.
• * 3.96

  Scotland.
• * 3.97

  Fraunce▪
• * 3.98

  The Iesuites forget how often the Ita∣lians haue rebelled both against the Emperour & against the pope himself, & in euery nation what dissentions & rebellions haue beene before our time.
• * 3.99

  The practises of the Iesuits wherewith this land is greeued and displeased.
• * 3.100

  These be no pointes of re∣ligion, but flat treason.
• * 3.101

  This easie pu∣nishment for twentie yeres sheweth the goodnesse of her dispositiō and the mild∣nesse of her regiment.
• * 3.102

  This later se∣ueritie the Ies. haue prouo∣ked by their wilfulnesse.
• * 3.103

  The Iesuites make rebelli∣on a point of their Catho∣like faith, be∣cause they would the soo∣ner infect the people with it
• * 3.104

  Casus conscien∣tiae qui hodie in Anglia occur∣runt sacerdoti∣bus comissis: artic. 55. And if you be asked, do you beleeue that the Bishop of Rome may licence you to beare armes against the Queene of England, and to kill her if you can, what must you an∣swere by this resolution of your but, I be∣leeue he may.
• * 3.105

  Till this posi∣tion be recan∣ted by the Ies. a traitour & a Iesuite cānot be sundered.
• * 3.106

  Mat. 22. Princes not depriueable by any mortal man.
• * 3.107

  Luke. 12.
• * 3.108

  Iohn. 18.
• * 3.109

  August. in Psal 47.
• * 3.110

  Ibidem.
• * 3.111

  The Iesuites make the Popes pride a poinct of Christian faith.
• * 3.112

  The Popes keyes extēd not to the goods or lāds of the poorest subiect in this realme.
• * 3.113

  Pastours haue their kind of correction ouer Princes, but that is far from depri∣uation.
• * 3.114

  The Pastor cannot force his flock.
• * 3.115

  Chrysost. de sacerdot. lib. 2.
• * 3.116

  Pastours may not cōstraine but only per∣swade.
• * 3.117

  Ibidem.
• * 3.118

  Bishops least of al men may correct with force.
• * 3.119

  Compulsion neither lawful nor expedient in Bishops.
• * 3.120

  Hilar. ad Const. lib. 2. imperfect.
• * 3.121

  Bishops may not meddle but with those that be wil∣ling.
• * 3.122

  Orig. in cap. 13. epist. ad Rom.
• * 3.123

  God will not haue crimes reuenged by the Rulers of the Church, but by the Iudges of the world.
• * 3.124

  Bishops by vertue of their calling cannot authorize vi∣olence or armes.
• * 3.125

  Rom. 13.
• * 3.126

  Defendor•• of the Popes power to de∣pose princes are no Mar∣tyrs but hai∣nous traitors.
• * 3.127

  The maintai∣ners & abet∣tours of this power put to death, and none els.
• * 3.128

  The defence, cap. 1. An. 1583. M. Slade. M. Bodie.
• * 3.129

  The question of Peters keyes as the Iesuites ex∣pound thē is no religion.
• * 3.130

  To subiect the Princes sword or Crowne to the Popes courtes and Buls is treasō by our Lawes▪ the rest of his vsurped pow∣er is heresie, not treason.
• * 3.131

  These treasōs be no trifles.
• * 3.132

  August. contra literas Petil. lib. 2. cap. 92.
• * 3.133

  No cōspiracie so dangerous as that which possesseth the heart vnder a shew of religi∣on.
• * 3.134

  Peters keyes wickedly wre∣sted to com∣maund the swordes and dispose the crownes of Princes.
• * 3.135

  A lewd deceit of the Iesuites to call that religiō which is none.
• * 3.136

  Apol. cap. 4. sect. 21.

  Magdebur. in praefat. Cent. 7.

  Cal. in 7. cap. Amos.
• * 3.137

  Bodie said so at Andeuer, but he lied the more.
• * 3.138

  Apol. cap. 4. sect. 21.
• * 3.139

  1. Elizabethae: The statute vpō the which they were cō∣demned.
• * 3.140

  Popish Bi∣shops were the first that consented to haue the king called su∣preme head.
• * 3.141

  A plainer stile receiued to a∣uoide offence
• * 3.142

  Supreme head no more blasphemous in the Prince than in the Pope to whō the Iesuites giue that stile.
• * 3.143

  Caluin mi∣stook supreme by Gardiners wily suggestiō,
• * 3.144

  Caluin. in 7. Amos. Cal. Ibidem.
• * 3.145

  Steuen Gar∣diner expoun∣ded supreme as if the prince might doe what he would in mat∣ters of religiō without re∣gard of God o•• his word.
• * 3.146

  How Caluine vnderstoode Supreme head.
• * 3.147

  Supreme must be refer∣red to pe••sōs and not to things.
• * 3.148

  We giue the Prince no right to bee iudge of religion, but power to re∣ceiue & settle in her realme that which is good both in doctrine & discipline.
• a 3.149

  1. Sam. 15.
• b 3.150

  2. Sam. 22.
• c 3.151

  Esai. 7.
• d 3.152

  Esai. 9.
• e 3.153

  1. Cor. 11.
• f 3.154

  Chrysost. in ca. 4. ad Philip. homil. 13.
• g 3.155

  Idem homil. 1. ad Papil. Anti∣och.
• * 3.156

  Head of the Church be∣longeth pro∣perly to Christ.
• * 3.157

  Praefat. 7. Centuriae.

  Princes may not be deui∣sers of new religions.
• * 3.158

  We may by our oth serue God & not men, if their lawes dissent from his.
• * 3.159

  We be subiect to Princes in that we must suffer, not in that we must obay whatso∣euer they cō∣maund.
• * 3.160

  Apol. c. 4. sect. 6.
• * 3.161

  The Iesuites as bold with the Parliamēt as they bee with the Prince.
• * 3.162

  Apol. cap. 4. sect. 10.
• * 3.163

  God will not be tied to the forme of hu∣mane iudge∣ments.
• * 3.164

  The Church planted with∣out any iudi∣cial processe.
• * 3.165

  Apol. cap. 4.
• a 3.166

  sect. 19.
• b 3.167

  sect. 12.
• c 3.168

  sect. 19.
• * 3.169

  Christ wil not be subiect to the voices of men.
• * 3.170

  He hath au∣thority enough that hath God on his side.
• a 3.171

  Ios. 24.
• b 3.172

  3. Kings. 19.
• c 3.173

  3. Kings. 22.
• d 3.174

  Ierem. 23.
• e 3.175

  Amos. 7.
• f 3.176

  Mat. 3.
• g 3.177

  Acts. 5.
• h 3.178

  6.
• i 3.179

  23.
• * 3.180

  The wicked alwaies asked the godly for their authority.
• * 3.181

  Mat. 21.
• * 3.182

  Ioh. 1.
• * 3.183

  Ioh. 1.
• * 3.184

  Acts. 4.
• * 3.185

  He that prea∣cheth the same doctrine which the A∣postles did, hath the same cōmissiō which they had.
• * 3.186

  One man preaching trueth hath warrant e∣nough against the whole worlde.
• * 3.187

  Tertul. de virg. velandis.
• * 3.188

  The whole world drow∣ned for resi∣sting the prea¦ching of one man.
• * 3.189

  Whether side hath trueth must be the question, the rest is super∣fluous quare∣ling.
• * 3.190

  Apol. cap. 4. sect. 21.
• * 3.191

  God must be obaied, when he cōmaun∣deth, whosoe∣uer dissent.
• * 3.192

  The Iesuites cal it a disor∣der to obey God before the Bishops.
• * 3.193

  Apol. cap. 4. sect. 6.
• * 3.194

  The Prince and the Par∣liament tooke not vpon thē the decision but the per∣mission & pro¦tection of trueth.
• * 3.195

  Queene Mary by Parliamēt receiued the Pope, why might not Queene Eli∣zabeth doe as much for Christ?
• * 3.196

  We be bound to the faith of Christ, not of our fathers.

  Deut. 32.
• * 3.197

  They be gone from the faith of their first fathers and egerly follow the blindnesse of their later fathers.
• * 3.198

  God hath not referred vs frō his word, to our fa∣thers.
• * 3.199

  Ezech. 20.
• * 3.200

  Psal. 78.
• * 3.201

  Psal. 95.
• * 3.202

  Zach. 1.
• * 3.203

  Ierem. 11.
• * 3.204

  Ibidem vers. 9.
• * 3.205

  Our fathers may erre, though his elect can not.
• * 3.206

  2. Tim. 2.
• * 3.207

  Mat. 24.
• * 3.208

  Mark. 13.
• * 3.209

  Mat. 24.
• * 3.210

  2. Thes. 2.
• * 3.211

  Reue•• 13. All shall erre sauing the elect.
• * 3.212

  The elect can∣not be discer∣ned of men.
• * 3.213

  Mat. 7.
• * 3.214

  To follow the greatest num∣ber is most dangerous.
• * 3.215

  Mat. 22.
• * 3.216

  Our Fathers sinned and re∣belled against God.
• * 3.217

  Psal. 106.
• * 3.218

  Dan. 9.
• * 3.219

  2. Chron. 29.
• * 3.220

  Mat. 3.
• * 3.221

  Acts. 7.
• * 3.222

  Our fathers cannot pre∣••udice the trueth of God. Luke. 16.
• * 3.223

  A parliament taking part with trueth hath the warrant of God & the Magistrate.
• * 3.224

  Lay men may make their choise what faith they will professe.
• * 3.225

  The Prince is authorized from God to execute his commaunde∣ment.
• * 3.226

  The Iesuites presume that al is the••••s.
• * 3.227

  The Prince may com∣maund for trueth, though the bishops would say no.
• * 3.228

  The Iesuites haue neither Gods law nor mans to make that which the Prince and the Parli∣ament did, to be voide for lacke of the Bishops assents.
• * 3.229

  The Kings of Iudah did cō∣maund for trueth with∣out Councels.
• * 3.230

  2. Chron. 14. Cap. 15. Cap. 15.
• * 3.231

  Cap. 15.
• * 3.232

  2. Chron. 29.
• * 3.233

  4. Kings. 22.
• * 3.234

  Christian Princes may doe the like.
• * 3.235

  Constātine authorized Christian re∣ligion without any Councel.
• * 3.236

  Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 2. Iustinian had no Councell for the ma∣king of his constitutions.
• * 3.237

  But 6. general Councels in 790. yeres.
• * 3.238

  S••c. lib. 5. ca. 10. Theodosius made his own choise what religion he would esta∣blish, & when the second general coun∣cell could not get him to receiue the Arians from their church∣es, Amphilo∣chius did win him to it. Theod. lib. 5. cap. 16.
• * 3.239

  Realmes haue bin Christe∣ned vpon the perswasions of Lay men & we••men.
• * 3.240

  India conuer∣ted by Mer∣chants.
• * 3.241

  Ruffin. l. 1. ca. 9
• * 3.242

  And neuer asked the Priestes leaue so to doe.
• * 3.243

  Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 19.

  Iberia cōuer∣ted by a wo∣man.

  Ruffin. lib. 1. cap. 10.

  The Iesuites would haue beene eloquēt against this King, that yeelded his Realme to Christ at the direction of a see••••e wenche.
• * 3.244

  Any man may serue Christ whosoeuer say nay.
• * 3.245

  Many Coun∣tries receiued the faith be∣fore they knew what the Church ••••nt.
• * 3.246

  Act. 5.
• * 3.247

  If trueth were •• ••ufficient ••••••charge for fishermen to withstand both Priests and Princes, much more may Princes vpon that war¦rant neglect the con∣sent of their own subiects, though they be Priests.

  Iohn. 7.
• * 3.248

  Railing on Princes is prohibited by the Law of God.
• * 3.249

  Exod. 21.
• * 3.250

  Leuit. 20.
• * 3.251

  Exod. 22.
• * 3.252

  Eccle. 10.
• * 3.253

  3. Kings. 2.
• * 3.254

  Dauid iudged Shimei wor∣thie to die for railing on him.