The defense of the aunsvvere to the Admonition against the replie of T.C. By Iohn VVhitgift Doctor of Diuinitie. In the beginning are added these. 4. tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the replie. 2 Of falsifications and vntruthes. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table generall.

Of Cathedrall Churches. &c. Tract. 22. (Book 22)

Admonition.

As for Organs and curi〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ns singing, though they be proper to popish dennes, I meane to

Cathedrall Churches, yet some others also must haue them. The Queenes Chappell, and these Churches must be paterns and presidents to the people of all superstitions.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 206. Sect. 1.

Here it pleaseth you to call Cathedrall Churches, Popish dennes, As hap is your wordes are no slaunder. But this bragge I will make of Cathedrall Churches, and such as be nowe in them, I will offer vn∣to you a dozen Cathedrall Churches in England (which I my selfe do know) the worst whereof in learning, shall encounter with al Pa∣pistes, Puritanes, Anabaptists, and what other sectes soeuer in Englande, for the defense of religion now professed, eyther by worde or wryting. Without arrogancie be it spoken, I thinke there was neuer time wherein these Churches were better furnished with wise, learned and godly men, than they be at this day. I speake not this boastingly, but to Gods glorie, the honour of the Prince, the comfort of the godly, and the shame of slaunderous Papistes, and disdainfull Schismatikes.

Your slaunderous speech of the Queenes Maiesties Chappell, which you also say to be a patterne and president to the people of all superstitions, is rather seuerely to be punished, than with words to be confuted.

T. C. Page. 163. tovvardes the ende. & Pag 164. Sect. 1.

As for the speach of the cathedrall Churches, either it is nothing or else it is false. For if he say that there is eyther in all those cathedrall Churches one, or in euerie of those 12. churches one, which is able to confute Papists. &c. What great thing sayth he, which sayth no more of all these Churches, than is to be founde in one poore house of the vniuersitie, whose rentes are scarce 300. pounde by yeare? Yea what hath he sayde of them which was not to be founde in them euen in Queene Maries tyme, when there was yet some one almost in euery Church, which for feare dis∣sembling, was able notwithstanding to confute the Papists, Anabaptists, Puritanes. And if he meane that in those twelue houses, the worst of the Prebendaries are able to defende the truth a∣gaynst all Papists, &c. all men do knowe the vntruth of it, so that although this sentence be very doubtfully put forth, yet howe so euer it be taken, it is as M. Doctor hath rightly termed it, a meere bragge. And yet I doubt not, and a〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 well assured, that there be diuerse godly learned men which haue liuings in those places, but for all that they ceasse not therefore to be dennes of loyte∣rers and idle persons, whilst there are nourished there some which serue for no profitable vse in the Church, theyr offices being such as bring no commoditie, but rather hurt, of which number cer∣tame are which the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page: some other which hauing charges in other places, vnder the colour of their Prebendes there, absent themselues from them: and that which they spoyle and rauen in other places, there they spend and make good cheere with, and ther∣fore not without good cause called dennes. Finally there being nothing there, which might not be much better applyed, and to the greater commoditie of the Church, whilst they might be turned in∣to Colledges, where yong men might be brought vp in good learning, and made fit for the serutce of the Church and common wealth, the vniuersities being not able to receyue that number of schol∣lers, wherwith there neede may be supplyed.

And where M. D. sayth, that that which is spoken of the Queenes maiesties chappell, is wor∣thie rather to be punished, than confuted, if so be that these be abuses, the example of them in hir ma∣testies chappell, cannot be but most daungerous, which with all humble submission and reuerence, I beseech hir Maiestie duly to consider.

Io. Whitgifte.

My speach is verie plaine and without all ambiguitie, I say there is a dozen Cathedrall Churches in England, the worst of the which Churches in learning shal incounter with all papists. &c. My meaning can not be so darke as you would séeme to make it: but bicause your vnderstanding is so dull, when any thing is spoken to the commendation of any other than of your selfe, I will more plainly declare my meaning: whiche is this, that there is not one of these dozen Churches, but hathe a sufficiente number of learned menne, to perfourme what so euer I haue promysed, howe so euer boastinglye,

which I acknowledge to be my infirmitie, but yet there vnto constreyned by the arro∣gancie of such, qui cupiunt soli videri aliquid esse. Your opprobrious speaches spoken of those Churches, as mere slaunders, and procéeding from a minde ouercome with en∣uie, and contempt of other, I passe ouer, affirming still the same that is conteyned in mine Answere to the Admonition, the which you may wel snap and bite at in words, but in déede you shall neuer be able to steyne those places: and whatsoeuer you pre∣tende to the vniuersities, yet your good will is as much towardes the one as it is to∣wardes the other, they both depending vpon one thréede.

But if there be abuses in hir Maiesties Chappell (as you suppose) why haue you not sought the reformation thereof orderly? Why haue you sought it tumultuously? why haue you libelled agaynst it? why haue you sought it with spitefull wordes, with disquieting the Church, without all dutie and order?

The. 2. Diuision.

Admonition.

The seuentéenth. We should be to long to tell your honours of Cathedrall Churches, the dennes aforesayde of all loytering lubbers, where maister Deane▪ maistr Uicedeane, maister Ca∣nons, or maister Prebendaries the greater, maister pecie Canons, or Canons the lesser, maister Chauncelor of the Church, master Treasurer, or otherwise called Iudas the purse bearer, the chief Chauncer, Singing men speciall fauourers of religion, squeaking Queristers, Organ players, Gospellers, Pistellers▪ Pentioners, Readers, Uergers. &c. liue in great idlenesse, and haue theyr abyding. If you woulde knowe whence all these came, we can easily answere you, that they came from the Pope, as out of the Troian horses bellie, to the destruction of Gods kingdome. The Church of God neuer knew them, neither doth any reformed Church in the world know them.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 224. Sect. vlt. &. pag. 225. Sect. 1.

Here you speake both without the booke of common prayer and Scriptures also, for neyther are Cathedrall Churches conteyned in that booke, neither haue you any Scripture to proue that which you so impudently affirme.

God be thanked it is well knowne to those that be not with malice blinded, that Cathedrall Churches be furnished with godly, zealous* 1.1 and learned men. And that they be the chiefe and principall orna∣ments of this Realme, and next to the Uniuersities, chiefest main∣teyners of godlynesse, religion and learning: there be some desire the spoyle of them, whose instruments you be: But I hope both theyr mouthes and yours also shall be first stopped with earth. Maister Deane, maister Uicedeane, maister Canons, &c. as much as they loy∣ter, may thinke themselues fit to be compared with such as you are, in any respectes.

T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2.

And as for the reasons which M. Doctor bringeth to establish them, in the. 225. page as that they are necessarie (which he doth barely say) and that S. Augustine alloweth of a Deane, and that the Authours of the Admonition are instruments of those which desire the spoyle of them, and that a man may as well speake agaynst Uniuersities and Colleges, as ag〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ynst them, I haue answered before, sauing that it is to be feared, that Colleges in Uniuersities (if M. Doctor may worke that which he goeth about) will shortly be in little better case, than those cathedrall Churches, which not only by his owne example, but with might & maine, and all indeuour possible, goeth about to fill and fraught with non residencies, and such as haue charges of Churches in other places, (*) 1.2 which do no good in the vniuersitie, and partly are such as can do none, onely are pernicious examples of rio∣tous feasting, and making great cheere with the prayes and spoyles whiche they bring out of the countrey, to the great hurt of the vniuersitie presently, and vtter ruine of it hereafter, vnlesse speedie remedie be therefore prouided.

Io. Whitgifte.

If I may work that which (you say I go about, I trust it shall be nothing that dero∣gateth

either frō the glory of God, the honor of the Prince, the peace of the church, the cōmendation of the vniuersitie, or the encrease of godlinesse, & learning. I thank god I neither haue gone about any thing, nor intende to do, whereof I am either ashamed* 1.3 or afrayde to make mine accompt. But who séeth not your greefe? In déede I may not suffer those with whom I haue to do, to disquiet y^e Uniuersitie or Colledge with false doctrine and schismaticall opinions: I may not suffer them openly to breake & contemne those lawes & statutes which they are sworne to obserue, and I to execute: I may not suffer any man against the expresse woordes of his othe, against all hone∣stie and conscience to liue vnder me, least I be partaker of his periurie: these be the things that I haue done, and these be the thinges that I intende to do: whereby as hi∣therto I haue kepte the place where I am, in some quiet and good order, so do I trust to continue it, both to the glorie of God, the honour of the Prince, the great encrease of learning, the edifying of Christes Churche, and the commendation both of the Col∣ledge and the whole Uniuersitie.

And howsoeuer you haue by woorde and writing sought to deface both me and* 1.4 the Colledge: yea the whole vniuersitie for my sake (cōtrary to the expresse woordes of your othe, as I sayde in the beginning) yet are you in act and déede confuted, though I should not speake one woorde: for contrary to your expectatiō and practise of your instruments, and earnest desire of al that be factious, the Colledge was neuer in bet∣ter quietnesse, neuer replenished with more towarde scholers, neuer fuller of stu∣dents of all degrées (I speake it to Gods glory & to deliuer it frō your slaunders) than it is at this presente. A great occasion of all these blissinges of God (as instruments and meanes) is the grauitie, the honestie, the wisedome, the learning, the discrete go∣uernment of those, whom you call non residentes: whom not I but the noble founders statutes, ratified by the Quéenes Maiesties authoritie, and allowed of by the wysest of the realme, for moste iuste consideration, euen for the better gouernment of the Colledge, beyng otherwise full of youth, haue licensed (beyng in the number of the twelue preachers chosen according to statute) to continue in theyr felowships with one liuing besides, to a certayne valewe. If there were the like prouision in other places, and the same furnished with such kinde of men, the state of diuers Colledges in Cambridge, would not be so tumultuous, as it is.

Touching the parties themselues, agaynst whom you so bitterly whette your* 1.5 tongue, vpon the same causes and quarrels you do agaynst me, this I will speake vnfeynedly, as I shall answere before God and the worlde: they are sober, honest, wyse, quiet men, faythfull and learned preachers, and that tyme of absence which is giuen vnto them by statute, they do carefully bestowe in their cures, and other pla∣ces where there is néede, according to their duetie and conscience, except the necessa∣rie gouernment of the Colledge, and publike vtilitie do constrayne them to the con∣trarie. The worste of them and he that is moste negligent, dothe more good in the Churche and common wealth, than you do, or any of your adherentes. I will not speake all that I might iustly, least I shoulde seeme to flatter, and in parte to com∣mende my selfe: but this is the summe, none of vs refuse triall, eyther of lyfe, go∣uernment, learning, liuing, or what soeuer is to be requyred in the ministers of God, and dutifull subiectes towardes theyr Prince.

It is an egregious slaunder when you say, they be pernicious examples of riotous feastinges, &c. I know the contrary: and thinke not you, but God will take due pu∣nishment of this your notorious malice, vttered vpon priuate quarrell, as it is well knowne to al this societie. In déede they loue one an other, agree among themselues, obey lawes, kéepe order, labour to suppresse Schismes, and this is that, that whet∣teth your tongue, and the tongues of other disordered persons agaynst them. I could requite all these your harde speaches, if I were disposed to deale so maliciously: But I will temper my selfe, desiring God not to impute these things vnto you: the Rea∣der I shall desire eyther to iudge the beste, or to suspende his iudgement vntill he haue the triall.

The. 3. Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 225. Sect. 2. 3.

You say all these come from the Pope, &c. It is not materiall frō whence they come, so they be good, profitable, & necessarie, for the maintey∣ning of religion, learning, wise & learned men: but I pray you from what Pope came they? or in what time did the Pope inuent them? I tolde you before that such places and Colledges were in Augustines* 1.6 time, & that he both hath the name of M. Deane, and alloweth of his office. If you had redde any auncient learned Authors (as your wri∣tings declare you haue not) then shoulde you finde that Collegiate churches be of great antiquitie, euen since the yeare of our Lord. 235. But what can you speake agaynst Cathedrall churches, which you may not as well speake agaynst the Colledges in the vniuersities? They were not in the Apostles time neyther yet in the primitiue* 1.7 Church: must they therefore now be dissolued? your meaning is be∣like to bring all to confusion and barbarisme.

You say, no reformed church in the worlde knoweth them, wherein I thinke you speake more than you know. Can you name any reformed church that hath plucked them downe? Peraduenture in diuers places where the gospell is now preached, they had neuer such rewards for learning. But what haue we to do in such cases with other reformed churches? we haue to consider what is most meete for this church, and state: & not to follow other, as though we were children: I see no cause why other reformed churches should not rather follow vs, than we them, seing in no respect we be inferiour to them. Well, to conclude, your wordes be but vaine, and your proofes none at all: and therfore I doubt not but Cathedrall churches shall be able to with∣stande both your opprobrious speaches, & the greedinesse of all their aduersaries, so long as it shall please God to blesse this land with so vertuous & learned a Queene, & so wise and discrete counsellours.

T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2.

And where he sayth it is not materiall, although these Deanes, Uycedeanes, Canons, Petyca∣nons, prebēdaries, &c. come from y^e Pope, it is, as if he should say, that it skilleth not although they come out of y^e bottomlesse pitte. For whatsoeuer cōmeth from the Pope which is Antichrist, com∣meth first from the Deuill: and where he addeth this condition (if it be good. &c.) in deede if of the egges of a Cokatrice can be made holesome meate to feede with, or of a spiders webbe any cloth to couer withall, then also may the things that come from the Pope & the Deuill, be good, profitable, and necessary vnto the church. And where he sayth that Collegiate churches are of great annciēcie, he proueth not the aunciencie of the Cathedrall churches, onlesse he proue that cathedrall and colle∣giate be all one. But I will not sticke with him in so small a matter, and if our controuersie were of the names of these churches, & not of the matter, I could be content to graunt his cause in this point as good as antiquitie without y^e word of god (which is nothing but rottēnesse) could make it.

Io. Whitgifte.

This Replie neither answereth directly nor truly, to any thing y^t I haue set down.* 1.8 For first it is vntrue that all things cōming frō an Antichristian Pope, cōmeth first frō y^e Deuill. I haue sufficiently proued y^e contrary in that portion, where I speake of* 1.9 apparel of ministers: an euill man may do some thing that is good, euen as a good mā may do some thing that is euill: & as God doth worke y^e good by y^e one, so doth the De∣uill worke y^e euill by the other. Ethnikes haue made good lawes, they haue appointed stipendes & rewards for learning, & such other like good things, which are profitable & not to be reiected for the Authors sakes, though they were members of Satan.

Secondly, it is vntrue that Cathedrall Churches came from the Antichristian* 1.10 Pope: for I tolde you that they were in the yeare of our Lorde. 235. at what tyme the Bishops of Rome were godly men and Martyres.

Thirdly, you haue not answered my question, for I demaunded from what Pope they came or in what time they were firste inuented: And to this you say not one worde: wherfore in effect you haue answered nothing. If they be of so late a fundatiō, it must néedes appeare who was the firste inuentor of them: but if that can not he founde (as belike it can not) then must their antiquitie be very great.

Collegiate and Cathedrall Churches be all one, for any thing that I can reade to the contrarie: if it be not so, shewe the difference.

The. 4. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2.

But for so much as those auncient Collegiate churches were no more like vnto those whiche we haue now, than things most vnlike, our Cathedrall churches haue not so muche as this olde worne cloke of Antiquitie, to hide their nakednesse, & to keepe out the shower. For the Collegiate churches in times past were a Senate ecclesiastical, stāding of godly learned ministers and elders, which gouerned and watched ouer that flocke which was in y^e citie or towne where such churches were, & for that in such great cities & townes commonly there were the most learned pastors & aun∣cients, therfore the townes & villages rounde about in harde & difficuite causes, came and had their resolutions of their doubtes at their handes, euen as also the Lord commaunded in Deuteron〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e,* 1.11 that when there was any great matter in the countrie, which the Le〈1 line〉〈1 line〉tes in matters perteyning to God, and the iudges in matters perteyning to the common wealth, could not discusse, that then they should come to Hierusalem, where there was a great number of Priests, Le〈1 line〉〈1 line〉tes, and lear∣ned iudges, of whom they should haue their questions dissolued, and this was the first vse of Col∣legiate churches.

Io. Whitgifte.

True it is, that in times past there was in euery citie, Collegium presbyterorum cui* 1.12 praeerat Episcopus, a Colledge of ministers ouer whom the Bishop bare rule, the which le∣rome calleth Senatum Ecclesiae, the Senate of the churche: and the same is now called a collegiate or Cathedrall churche. It is also euident that these Presbyteri, were all Priests, & that they with the Bishop had the deciding of al cōtrouersies in doctrine or ceremonies, & the directiō of diuers other matters in al those places that were vnder that citie, that is in all that shyre or Diocesse: & therfore sayeth M. Caluine (speaking* 1.13 of the primitiue church) Euery citie had a colledge of Seniors which were Pastors & Do∣ctors, for they all had the office of preaching to the people, of exhorting, and of correcting, the which office S. Paule doth commit to Bishops: and this is that Seigniorie, wherof the auncient writers speake so much, & which you vntruly & without consideration say to haue bene in euery parish, and to consist as well of other as of Priests, & Mi∣nisters of the worde, and although that kinde of gouernment, which these churches had, is transferred to the Ciuill Magistrate, to whom it is due, and to such as by him are appointed, yet is it not so cleane blotted out, as you would make vs beleeue. For* 1.14 the Bishop who was then, and is now the chiefe of that colledge or Church, keepeth his authoritie still, & may if he please call to gither those ministers or Priestes of the Cathedrall Church to consult of such things as are expedient, & in diuers p〈1 line〉〈1 line〉tes he can do nothing without them. Moreouer diuerse of the same churches, some 〈◊〉〈◊〉 office, and some appointed by election, are bounde to attende vpon prouinciall 〈◊〉〈◊〉, so oft as the Archbishop at the cōmaundement of the Prince doth call the 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ame. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉∣wise they be places wherein are nourished for the most parte, the best, the wise〈1 line〉〈1 line〉, the learnedst men of the Clergie in the lande, whiche not onely, in the respect of their soundnesse in religiō, profoundnesse in learning, diligēce in preaching, but wisedome also, experience, & dexteritie in gouerning, are not onely an ornament to the realme, profitable to the Churche, honour to the Prince: but also a stay from barbarisme, a bridle to sectes & heresies, & a bulwarke agaynst confusion. Wherefore as the vse of* 1.15 them then, for those times & states was good and godly: so is the vse of them now in this age and state no lesse conuenient, godly, and necessarie, whiche you nor all your fautors shall euer be able to disproue.

The. 5. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 164. In the ende.

Afterwarde the honor whiche the smaller Churches gaue vnto them in asking them councell▪ they tooke vnto themselues, and that whiche they had by the curtesy and good will proceding of a reuerent estimation of them, they did not onely take vnto them of right, but also dispossessed them of all authority of hearing and determining any matters at all, And in the end they came to this which they are nowe, which is a company that haue strange names and strange offices, vnheard of of al the purer churches, of whom the greatest good that we can hope of is, that they do no harme. For although there be diuerse which do good, yet in respect that they be Deanes, Prebendaries▪ Canons, Petycanons, &c. for my parte I see no profite but hurte come to the church by them.

Io. Whitgifte.

All this is vntrue, and your owne enely imagination: for these Churches haue not encreased theyr authoritie, but diminished it rather, as it is euident. The names* 1.16 and offices vsed in them, I haue proued before in the title of Archbishops, &c. to be neyther straunge nor vnhearde of in the purer and auncient Churches. And though you sée no profite that commeth to the Churche by them, yet those that be quietly dis∣posed in the Churche, those that haue a care for the good gouernment of the Church, those that haue not by any schisme deuided themselues from the Churche, sée great profite and singular commoditie.

The. 6. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 1. 2.

And where he sayeth they are rewardes of learning, in deede then they should be if they were conuerted vnto the maintenance and bringing vp of Schollers, where now for the most parte, they serue for fat morsels to fill (if might be) the greedy appetites of those, which otherwise haue enough to liue with, and for holes and dennes to keepe them in, which eyther are vnworthie to be kepce at the charge of the churche, or els whose presence is necessary and dutifull in other places, and for the most part vnprofitable there.

Last of all, whereas M. Doctor sayth that we haue not to follow other churches, but rather other churches to follow vs, I haue answered before: this onely I adde, that they were not coun∣ted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctrine, but those whiche made the people of God beleeue, that they were happie when they were not, and that their estate was very good, when it was corrupt. Of the which kinde of false prophecie I say and Ieremy especially do complayne. And therefore vnlesse M. Doctor amend his speach, and leaue this crying, peace, peace, all is well, when there are so many things out of order, and that not by the iudgement of the Admonition and fauourers thereof onely, but euen of all whiche are not willingly blinde, I say if he do not amende these speaches, the crime of false prophecie will sitte closer vnto him, than he shall be euer able to shake of, in the terrible day of the Lorde.

Io. Whitgifte.

There muste be as well rewardes for those that haue spent much time in get∣ting* 1.17 learning, and be learned, as there muste be meanes to maynteyne men whiles they be in learning. Grammer schooles, and the Uniuersities serue for the one: and Cathedrall churches with such other preferments serue, for the other: spoyle the one and the other can not possibly stande. Your immodest and vncharitable speaches worke most discredite to your selfe.

That which I speake of other Churches by way of comparison, I speake for the truth of the doctrine, sincere administration of the Sacramentes, and all other poynts of Religion, by publike authoritie established in this Realme, wherein I say agayne, that there is no cause why it should giue place to any Churche that n〈1 line〉〈1 line〉we is. And yet I do not defende the faultes of men, or other corruptions (from the which no Church is frée.) But for the cryme of false prophecie wherewith you charge me, I truste it be farre from me: I woulde pronenesse to contention, and vncharitable iudging▪ were as farre from you. Howbeit we both must stand or fall to our owne Lord: and therefore it is no good iudging before the time.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Learned men in cathedrall Churches.
• (*) 1.2

  What will this slaundrous tongue spare〈1 line〉〈1 line〉
• * 1.3

  The 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 hotte and 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉∣ter 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• * 1.4

  The colledge deliuered from the slan∣derous Re∣plie.
• * 1.5

  The fello〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 defended a∣gaynst the poysoned tongue.
• * 1.6

  Deane allow∣ed by S. Au∣gustine.
• * 1.7

  Barbarisme and confusion secretely in∣tended.
• * 1.8

  Tract. 7.
• * 1.9

  Good thinges may come from euill mē.
• * 1.10

  Cathe〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ll churches be∣fore the Anti∣christi〈1 line〉〈1 line〉l Popes. The 〈◊〉〈◊〉 answereth not that which is demaunded.
• * 1.11

  Deut. 17.
• * 1.12

  In euery citie a colledge of 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• * 1.13

  Institut. cap. 8. Sect. 52.
• * 1.14

  Our Cathe∣dral churches not much dif∣fering from those of aun∣cient time.
• * 1.15

  The hse of Cathedrall churches as necessarie now as afore 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• * 1.16

  Tract. 8. Ca. 2.
• * 1.17

  There muste be rewardes for learning already attey∣ned.