The defense of the aunsvvere to the Admonition against the replie of T.C. By Iohn VVhitgift Doctor of Diuinitie. In the beginning are added these. 4. tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the replie. 2 Of falsifications and vntruthes. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table generall.

¶ Of the Authoritie of the ciuill Ma∣gistrate in Ecclesiasticall mattets. Tract. 20. (Book 20)

The. 1. Diuision.

Admonition.

And to these three ioyntly, that is, the Ministers, Seniors, and Deacons, is the whole regi∣ment of the Churche to be committed.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 126. Sect. vlt.

This is only by you set downe without proofe, therefore I will heare your reasons before I make you answere. In the meane time I praye you what authoritie in these matters do you giue to the ci∣uill* 1.1 magistrate, me thinke I heare you whisper that the Prince hath no authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters: I knowe it is a receiued opi∣nion among some of you, and therein you shake handes also with the Papistes and Anabaptistes.

T. C. Pag. 153. Lin. vlt. &c.

Unto all the rest vntill the ende of the firste parte of the Admonition. I haue answered already, yet there is a poynte or two whiche I must touche, whereof the first is in the. 126. pag. where hee would beare men in hande that the authours of the Admonition & some other of their mynde, would shut out the ciuill magistrate and the prince from all authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters. Whiche surmise although I see it is not so much, bicause either he knoweth or suspecteth any such thing, as bicause he meaneth hereby to laye a bayte to entrappe withal, thinking that where (a) 1.2 he maketh no conscience to giue he careth not what authoritie to princes, wee will be loth to giue more than the worde of God will permit, wherby he hopeth to drawe vs into displeasure with the prince: yet for bicause he shall vnderstande, we nourishe no opinons secretly, which we are ashamed to declare o∣penly, & for that we doubt not of the equitie of the prince in this part, which knoweth that although her authoritie be the greatest in the earth, yet it is not infinite, but is lymited by the worde of God, & of whome we are persuaded, that as her maiestie knoweth, so she will not vnwillingly heare y^e truth in this behalfe, these things I say being considered, I answere in the name of the authors of the Ad∣monition and those some other which you speake of, that the prince and ciuill magistrate (b) 1.3 hath to see, that the lawes of God touching his worship, and touching all matters and orders of the church be executed and duly obserued, and to see that euery ecclesiasticall persone do that office whervnto he is appointed, & to punish those which faile in their office accordingly. (c) 1.4 As for y^e making of y^e orders and ceremonies of the churche, they do (where there is a constituted and ordered churche) perteyne vnto the ministers of y^e church, and to the ecclesiasticall gouernours, & that as they medle not with y^e making of ciuill lawes, & lawes for the common wealth: so the ciuill magistrate hath not to ordeyne ceremonies perteining to the church: But if those to whome that doth apperteyne make any orders not meete, the magistrate may and ought to hynder them, & driue them to better, for so much as the ciuil magistrate hath this charge to see that nothing be done against y^e glorie of God in his dominiō.

Io. Whitgifte.

The wordes of the Admonition pag. 126. be these: and fo these three ioyntly, that is, the* 1.5 Ministers, Seniors, and Deacons, is the whole regimēt of the churche to be committed. Wher∣fore they spoyle the ciuill magistrate of all gouernment in Ecclesiasticall matters: for if the whole gouernmēt of the church is to be cōmitted to Ministers, Seniors, & Deacons, what authoritie remaineth to the ciuil magistrate in the gouernment of it? Agreable to this disobedient spirite & erroneous & Papisticall doctrine, is that in the second Admonitiō Fol. 8. &. 9. where the authors of that booke take from the ciuill magistrate all supremacie in

Ecclesiasticall matters, and by euident circumstances, call his authoritie vsed in those things vsurped. pag. 57. they saye, only meere ciuill lawes are to be made. And here in this place T. C. in expresse wordes taketh from the ciuill magistrate, all authoritie of makyng and appoin∣ting* 1.6 orders and ceremonies of the church, and giueth the same onely to ministers and eccle〈1 line〉〈1 line〉asticall gouerne〈1 line〉〈1 line〉rs, he maketh it the princes dutie to see those 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉awes executed which these eccle〈1 line〉〈1 line〉asti∣call gouernours shall appoynte and prescribe: and in his Preface he saith that eiuill persones may not handle ecclesiastical matters and Pag. 35. &. 145. y^e the ciuil magistrate may not be the head of the church in that common wealth whereof he is the head. Where by (as I suppose he mea∣neth* 1.7 supreame gouernour) and that the churche may bee established without him. Pag. 54. hee denieth that the magistrate ought to prescribe what kynde of apparell ministers should 〈◊〉〈◊〉. In diuers places, he maketh such a distinction betwixt the church of Christ, & a Chri∣stian cōmon wealth y^t hath a Christiā magistrate, as he would do betwixt the church & a Heathenishe common wealth, y^t hath a persecuting and an vnbeleuing magistrate, and separateth the common wealth of Englande, as farre from the churche of Eng∣lande as he can do the common wealthe of Turcia, from the churche of Christ in Turcia: all this I haue noted to this ende, that the good subiect and those that be carefull for the preseruation of the state of this Realme, and the lawefull authoritie of hir Maiestie, may the better consider and beware of this doctrine, the whiche vnlesse I proue to be the selfe same with the Papistes in substance, let me susteine that punishement that is due vnto them whome I burden & charge with forgetfulnes of dutie in this poynt.

Saunders in that trayterous booke of his, wryteth thus. That hath deceiued many,* 1.8 bicause they see kings to be Christians, and to rule ouer Christians, for they knowe not, or at the least they will not knowe, what difference there is, whether thou rule ouer a Christian in that he is a Christian, or in that he is a man. For a king ruleth ouer Christian men, but not* 1.9 bicause they bee Christians, but bicause they bee men: and bicause byshoppss be men, in that respect he ruleth also ouer them. &c. And. T. C. in his Reply. pag. 35. writeth on this* 1.10 manner, saying: That the godlye Magistrate is the head of the common wealth, but not of the churche, meaning that particular churche conteyned in the common wealth whereof he is gouernour: and in the same page he saith: that the Christian Magistrate is but on∣ly a member of that particular churche. And pag 145. he sayeth, That the Prynce may well bee* 1.11 Monarche immediatly betwene God and the common wealth, and not betwene God & the church, in that common wealth or any singular member in the church, and in this place he would haue the ciuill Magistrate no more to intermedle with making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders, than the ecclesiasticall minister should deale with ciuill: diuers such nippes and pinches he hath at the ciuill Magistrate: speaking no other wyse of hym than of a Turke or a Iewe, and gi∣uing him no more authoritie in the church of Christe and ouer Christians, than if hee were the great Turke, or wicked Nero. But I answere them bothe with the wordes of M. Musculus in his common places Titu. de Magistratu. Let Ethnickes and infidels whiche liue not in the vnitie of truthe, but in the confusion of errour, haue their diuers lawes* 1.12 and magistrates, some prophane and some holy, whose whole life is prophane, whose religion is but ecclesiasticall superstition and in the temple only. Christian people are altogether he∣ly, and dedicated to the name of Christe, not in temples only and ecclesiasticall rites, but in their whole life, in euery place at al times, in all things, in al deedes and studies, that accor∣ding to the admonitiō of the Apostle. 1. Cor. 10. whether he eate or drinke, or whatsoeuer he doth all may be done to the glory of God, and Col. 3. whatsoeuer he doth in woorde or in deede, hee doe it in the name of the Lorde. &c. VVherefore that distinction of Eccle∣siasticall & prophane lawes, hath no place in it, bicause there is nothing in it that is prophane, seeing it is a people holy to the Lorde God: and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane, his authoritie is holy, his lawes are holy, his sword is holy, a reuenger of the wicked and vn∣godly, whereby he serueth the Lorde being the chiefe lawmaker, and iudge: our members are the members of Christ, and our bodies are the bodies of the holy ghost: we are willed to glorifie God not in our spirit onely, but in our bodie also 1. Cor. 6. Therefore this be sarre* 1.13 from the church of Christ, that it should be partly holy, and partly prophane, holy before, and prophane behinde, lyke vnto an Idoll which sheweth beautifull before, and behinde is full of filth, and Spyders webbes.

Againe the Papistes giue to the Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters,

Potestatem facti and not iuris, that is, to sée those lawes executed and put in practise, that the Pope and his Clergie shall make, and to bée as it were their executioner, but not to make any lawes or orders in Ecclesiastical matters: for so writeth Saunders in his book before named Fol. 64. Although I doe not denye but that the knowledge of a* 1.14 facte that belongeth to the ecclesiasticall lawe, may be committed to kings and Magistrates, and before the ecclesiastical cause be determined, the king may vse his authoritie to this end, that there may be some quiet place prepared, where the bishops shall cōsulte, and that the bi∣shops be called to the same place at a certein day, and that in the meane time while the mat∣ter is in determining, cōmon peace may be preserued euen among the priests them selues: to conclude, after the cause be determined and iudged by the priests, the king may punishe him with the sworde (which he carieth not in vaine) or by some other corporall punishmēt which shal refuse to obey the sentence of the priests. Therfore we do not deny but that kings haue something to do, both before, and at, and after the iudgements of the bishops: but in the of∣fice of iudging, they haue no more to do, than other priuate persons, for they may well giue councell, and declare what they thinke, but they may not determine or define what Gods lawes or the ecclesiastical lawe doth require. And doth not T. C. in this place affirme the* 1.15 same? onely herein he séemeth something to differ, y^t if the ecclesiastical gouernours shall make any orders vnmeete, the magistrate may driue them to better. But what if they saye they be méete, & will stand to it, as you do now in this fonde platforme? will they not crye out vpon the magistrate, & saye that he is a persecutour, a mainteiner of an vn∣lawfull authoritie, & of that which is against the glorie of God, if he withstande thē? as the authours of the seconde Admonition do in playne termes, saying, For though the or∣ders be, and ought to be drawen out of the booke of God, yet it is her Maiestie that by her princely* 1.16 authoritie should see euery of these thyngs put in practise, and punyshe those that neglect them, ma∣king lawes therefore: for the churche may keepe those orders, but neuer in peace, except the comfor∣table and blessed assistance of the states and gouernours imcke in to see them in their countreis and vsed, for otherwyse the church maye and must keepe Gods orders, but alwaies in troubles and per∣secution which is like to light vpon vs, except a reformation of religion, or a direct prouiso for vs bee made, for surely only this is God his order, and ought to be vsed in his churche, so that in conscience we are forced to speake for it and to vse it, and in conscience and in reuerence of God we are forced to speake as we do of that reformation, which we nowe vse, not so much for ought else, as to set out the deformities thereof, that we might thinke vpon the amending of them.

M. Musculus in the booke and title before recited, setteth out this Popish opiniō tou∣ching* 1.17 the authoritie of y^e ciuill Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters briefly, but plain∣ly, in these wordes. Those whome they call Ecclesiasticall persones, and we call them Pa∣pistes, will not commit to the magistrate any further authoritie in religion, than to be the keeper and reuenger of it, and of their Ecclesiasticall lawes, that the ecclesiasticall pollicie maye remayne immouable, wherefore they deny him to haue authoritie in that he is a ma∣gistrate to make or to publyshe any Ecclesiasticall lawes, bicause suche things perteine to those that do represent the churche, whose decrees and constitutions must bee mainteyned and defended by the authoritie of the magistrate.

This I thought good to nete before I come to answering of his argumentes, that al men may vnderstand that I no otherwise charged them in this point, than they haue well deserued, neither haue I as yet detected all that they peruersly thinke, of the au∣thoritie of the ciuill magistrate: one thing I praye you marke, that here is one note* 1.18 practised that I haue ascribed to the Anabaptistes, in my (*) 1.19 Answere to the Admoni∣tion, for there I shewe that the Anabaptistes accuse the true ministers of the Gospell, for attributing (as they saye) to much to the ciuill magistrate: The same doth T. C. charge me with in this place. But I will nowe come to his argumentes.

The. 2. Diuision.

T. C. Page 154, Sect 1.

This distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of, let him looke in the seconde booke of the Chronicles in the. 19. chap. and in the. 8. and. 11. verses, hee shall see that there were a* 1.20 number appointed for the matters of the lord, which were priests & Leuites, and there were other also appointed for the kings affaires, and for matters of the common wealth, amongest which were the Leuites, which being more in number than could be applied to the vse of the churche, were sette ouer ciuill causes, being therfore moste fitte, for that they were best learned in the lawes of God, which were the polylike lawes of that countrey.

There he may learne if it please him, that the making of orders and giuing of iudgementes in ci∣uill and Ecclesiasticall, in common wealth and churche matters, perteyned vnto diuers persons, whiche distinction the writer to the Hebrewes doth note, when he sayeth, (*) 1.21 that the Priest was ordeyned in thinges perteyning to God.* 1.22

Io. Whitgifte.

Yes, I bothe knowe this distinction, and haue hearde of it, for I haue redde it* 1.23 in the bookes of the Papistes as I haue shewed before: I haue hearde also this same place of the. 2. Chro. 19. alleaged to confirme it: For Saunders in his booke before named, dothe vse it to the same ende and purpose that you do: that is, to proue the Ciuill Magistrate to haue no authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall lawes and or∣ders, his woordes be these. Likewyse Iosaphat kinge of Iuda distinguishing bothe the* 1.24 powers, sayde to the Leuites and Priestes: Amarias the Prieste, and your Bishop shall go∣uerne in those thinges whiche perteyne to God: But Zabadias &c. beholde something perteyned to the Bishop, other somethinges to the office of a Kinge. The same place al∣so dothe Harding vse, to the selfe same ende agaynst my Lorde of Sarisburie, fol. 118. of the defense of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande, from whome I beléeue you haue borrowed it. Do I not say truely that you iumpe with the Papistes? do you not both conspire agaynst the Ciuill Magistrate? and are you not content to vse theyr very woordes and reasons? greate ado there is agaynst me, bycause I vse a place of Cyprian for the authoritie of an Archbishop ouer his prouince, whiche the Papistes abuse for the authoritie of the Pope ouer all Christendome: and here you vse the reason not onely of Papistes, but of Traytours to the same ende with them: that is, agaynst that lawfull iurisdiction, whiche wée haue giuen to our Prince, and whiche hath hetherto bene maynteyned, bothe by preaching and by burning.

But to lette this reste in the consideration of the Reader, I will in fewe* 1.25 woordes declare that this place maketh flatte agaynst you: for who placed those Le∣uites and Priestes in Ierusalem for the iudgement and cause of the Lorde? or who prescribed vnto them what they shoulde do? or who gaue to them that authoritie? did not Iehosaphat? the texte is playne. Iehosaphat had chiefe authoritie and go∣uernment bothe in thinges perteyning to God, and in thinges perteyning to the common wealth, but for better execution of them, the one he did committee to be exe∣cuted by Amaria the Prieste, the other by Zabadiah a ruler of the house of Iuda: e∣uen as the Quéenes Maiestie beyng supreme gouernour in all causes, bothe Eccle∣siasticall and Temporall, committeth the hearing and iudgyng of Ecclesiasticall matters to the Archbyshops and Bishops, and of Temporall matters to the Lorde Chauncellour and other iudges, neyther can you any more conclude that Iehosaphat had no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes bycause he made Amarias the Prieste iudge in the same, than you can that he had nothing to do in Temporall affayres, bycause he appoynted also Zabadiah to heare & determine them. For if this reason be good, the Quéene of Englande hath nothing to do with Ecclesiasticall matters, bycause shée hath made the Archbishops and Bishops iudges in them, then is this as good, hir Maiestie hath no authoritie in Ciuill matters, bycause she hath commit∣ted the same to the Lorde Chauncellour and other Iudges. Thus you see howe both the Papistes and you are deceyued in one and she selfe same reason.

I will but note by the way that the Leuites beyng Ecclesiasticall persons, had* 1.26 to do in Ciuill matters, as the woordes of the texte verse. 11. moste manifestly, de∣clare, as for your shifte of the number of them, beyng more than coulde be applyed to the vse of the Churche, it is but your owne, and therefore to simple to answere so playne and direct a place of the Scripture.

That in the fifte to the Hebrewes is farre from the purpose, for the Apostle in the same sentence declareth what those things perteyning to God be: Euen to offer bothe giftes and sacrifices for him: I thinke you do not so malitiously reporte of vs

as the Papistes do: that we giue to the Prince power to minisier the Sacra∣mentes, and to preache the woorde: if you do not, this place can by no meanes serue your turne.

The. 3. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2.

This might M. Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble Emperour Constantine at∣tributeth* 1.27 to the Fathers of the Nicene Councell and to the Ecclesiasticall persons there gathered: whiche he dothe also permitte the Byshops, Elders, and Deacons of Churches to do, (*) 1.28 ey∣ther by correcting or adding, or making newe if neede be. And by the continuall practise of the Churche in the tyme of Christian Emperours, whiche alwayes permitted vnto the ministers as∣sembled in councels▪ as well the determination of controuersies whiche rose, as the making or the abolishing of needefull or hurtfull ceremonies, as the ease requyred. Also by the Emperours epi∣stle in the first action of the councell of Constantinople where by the epistle of the Emperour it appeareth, that it was the manner of the Emperours, to confirme the ordināces which were made by the ministers, and to see them kept.

Io. Whitgifte.

I learne in Eusebius Lib. 1. de vita Constan. that Constantinus is called as it were* 1.29 a generall Bishop appoynted of God, that he also called Synodes and placed the mo∣derator in them: I learne in that seconde Booke, that he made lawes and constitu∣tions perteyning to holynesse towardes God, and to the appoynting of meete thinges for the Churches of God: that there shoulde be no Images worshipped: none erected and set vp: no enchauntmentes vsed or so thsayinges. And I learne in that same Epistle* 1.30 by you quoted, that Constantinus prescribed to Eusebius what he shoulde do, and what* 1.31 he should will others to do, in buylding and repayring of Church▪s, or enlarging of them: neyther is there mention made of anyother Lawes or constitutions in that Epi∣stle:* 1.32 and surely I beleeue that those woordes whiche Constantinus speaketh to Euse∣bius of buylding or repayring, or enlarging Churches buylded of stone, you vnder∣stande of making, restoring or enlarging of Ecclesiasticall orders and Lawes, whiche if you do (as your woordes playnely signifie) then vnderstande you not the place, abuse your Reader, and caste away an argument. For Constantinus woordes to Eusebius be thesc: Howe hitherto by that wicked sentence and tyrannie, persecuting* 1.33 the Ministers of our Sauiour, the buyldinges of the Churches are decayed, and weakened thorough negligence, or soulde and made vyle, for feare of imminent daunger, I knowe and am fully perswaded: but nowe libertie beyng restored, and that Dragon thorough the prouidence of God, and our ministerie banished from the gouernment of the common wealth, I thinke Gods power is made manifest to all, and that those whiche haue fallen in∣to certayne sinnes, eyther for feare or thorough vnbeleefe, and nowe knowe the truthe* 1.34 will returne agayne to the true and right waye of lyfe: therefore admonishe all Churches whiche thou doest gouerne or any other Churches, vnder the gouernment of other Bi∣shops, Priestes, or Deacons, that they be diligent aboute the buyldyng of theyr Churches, and that they eyther repayre suche as stande still, or enlarge them, or if necessitie requyre, buylde them newe, and thou thy selfe, or other for thee, may requyre of the gouernours and Magistrates in the prouinces those thinges that be necessarie. It is playne that Con∣stantine in these woordes speaketh onely of materiall Churches, and therefore you are greatly deceyued. But if it were as you say, do you not sée howe it maketh a∣gaynst* 1.35 your selfe? for what dothe more plainely appeare in that you saye, he permit∣teth this vnto the Bishops &c. than that the authoritie was in him, and they were but his vicegerentes.

The continuall practise of Christian Churches (in the tyme of Christian Ma∣gistrates)* 1.36 before the vsurpation of the Bishop of Rome, hath bene to giue to Chri∣stian

Princes supreme authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall orders and lawes, yea and that whiche is more, in deciding of matters of religion, euen in the chiefe and principall poyntes. And that booke and chapter of Sozomene by you quoted decla∣reth the same. For the Bishops that came to the Councell of Nyce, committed the hearing & determining of theyr controuersies to the Emperour, which argueth that it was then, a common and vndoubted opinion receyued among them, that the Em∣perour had authoritie to iudge in their causes: and although the Emperour of mo∣destie refused so to do, saying, that it was not meete for them, so to vse themselues, that they shoulde be iudged of other, yet I am sure you will not make this a rule to exempt the Cleargie from the iurisdiction of the Ciuill Magistrate, vnlesse you will take holde with the Pope and saie, VVe muste iudge all and be iudged of none▪ This modestie in Constantinus (in refusing to heare the matters in controuersis among the Bishops) excepted, there is nothing in that firste booke and, 17▪ chapter of Sozomene, that can by any meanes serue your turne.

If you say that he woulde not determine any thing agaynst Arius heresie, but* 1.37 committed the same to the Synode and Councell of Nice: I answere, that therein be nothing at all abridged his authoritie.▪ but shewed his wisedome and godly care. For it is the parte of a wise and godly Prince, to haue such weightie matters of doc∣trine (beyng in controuersie) decreed and determined by suche, as for their autho∣ritie, wisedome and learning, are moste fitte to entreate of suche matters. But alas how doth this argument follow: Constantinus called the Councell of Nice to deter∣mine certayne matters of religion in controuersie, therefore he had no authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall orders and lawes?

What Councell of Constantinople was that? if you meane the. 5. beyng cele∣brated* 1.38 Anno. 549. in the tyme of Iustinianus: it is a very late testimonie for this cause, the Bishops of Rome: beyng then in great authoritie, and yet manifest it is, that no Emperour made mo Ecclesiasticall lawes, bothe concerning matters of order, and also of doctrine, than did the Emperour Iustinianus, as may be séene in the Code vn∣der these Titles, De summa trinitate & fide Catholica: De sacrosanctis Ecclesijs: de Episcopis & Clericis: de Haereticis & Manichaeis & Samaritanis: ne sanctum Baptisma iteretur: de statu∣is & imaginibus, and a number such like.

If you meane the sixth Councell of Constantinople, as it lyke you do: then are you without my compasse: for that Councell was Anno. 681. and who will alleage* 1.39 any authoritie of that corrupt tyme for any suche matter in controuersie? and yet it is certayne that Constantinus the Emperoure did gouerne that Councell and that the Bishops on bothe sides did pleade before him at his appoyntment, himselfe sit∣ting as moderator: and this was in a matter of fayth. But be it as you say (though I can finde no suche thing in the firste Action of that Councell) dothe it followe that bycause Emperours cōfirmed ordinaunces that were made in Synodes and Coun∣celles, therefore they haue no authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall lawes? surely I vnderstande not howe you can make any suche conclusion, for (as I sayde before) it is a poynt of greate wisedome and singular care, to prouide that weightie matters in controuersie be determined with great deliberation and aduise of suche as be most skilfull in them. But this can be no argument to proue that Ciuill Magistrates may make no orders in the Churche, or Ecclesiasticall Lawes: for euen those or∣ders and lawes whiche were made in suche Councels, were made by the authori∣tie of the Emperour, as dothe very well appeare in the same Councels, for when the matters were concluded in the Councell of Chalcedon, the Bishops brust out into these voyces. It is a true and a right iudgement: long lyfe to the Senate: many* 1.40 yeares to the Emperour. Whereby it appeareth that the chiefe authoritie in suche Councels was giuen to the Emperour, and that he was esteemed as the chiefe iudge: which appeareth also at large in the seconde booke of Euagrius.

The. 4. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2.

The practise of this he mighte haue also moste playnely seene in Ambrose, who woulde by* 1.41 no meanes suffer that the causes of the Churches should be debated in the Princes consistorie or* 1.42 courte, but would haue them handled in the Churche, by those that had the gouernment of the Churche, and therefore excuseth himselfe to the Emperour Ualentiman for that (beyng conuented to answere of the church matters vnto the ciuill courte) he came not.

Io. Whitgifte.

This is an other of M. Hardinges reasons agaynst the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters, and he vsed it against the Apologie, but the answere made to the same in the defense of the Apologie, by that reuerende Father* 1.43 the Bishop of Sarisburie, is learned and true, the summe whereof is this. The Emperour Ualentinian at that tyme when Ambrose wrote this Epistle vnto him, was very yong, he was not yet baptized, he knewe not the principles of Christes* 1.44 Religion, he was an Arian Heretike, he woulde haue thruste out the Christians, and placed Heretikes in their Churches, he thought it was lawfull for him to do what him listed &c. For this cause Ambrose refused him to be his iudge, so that he did not mislike his authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall, but onely his wilfull ignorance and his tyrannie: for that he knewe his iudgement was corrupted and not indiffe∣rent. And if you had marked the beginning of his Epistle, you might haue per∣ceyued that he alleageth for his chiefe defense, and excuse for not appearing, the de∣crée of Theodosius the Father of Ualentinian, so that in not comming or appearing at the Emperours summon, he did but challenge the priuiledge graunted before of godly Emperours vnto the Cleargie.

And it is euident that the learned and auncient Fathers, haue committed the* 1.45 deciding of matters of controuersie to Emperours, as it appeareth in Athanasius his seconde Apologie, where he committing himselfe and his cause to the Emperour, sayeth thus: VVe require that the Emperours moste godly and most religious Maiestie, may haue the hearyng of the same matter, before whome we may open both our churches right, and also our owne: for we hope that his godlinesse vnderstanding our reasons, will* 1.46 neuer condemne vs.

Likewise S. Augustine Contra Epist Parme. Lib. 1. speakyng to the Donatistes,* 1.47 sayeth. Is it not lawfull for the Emperour or his deputie to giue sentence in a matter of religion? wherefore then went your Ambassadoures to the Emperour? why made they him iudge of their cause?

Sozomene Lib. 4. Cap. 16. sayeth that the Emperour commaunded that tenne Bi∣shops* 1.48 of the East, and ten of the VVeste, chosen by the Councell, shoulde repayre to his courte and open to him the decrees of the Councell, that he might not only consider whe∣ther they were agreed according to the Scriptures: but that he might further determine and conclude what were best to be done.

Socrates Lib. 5. Cap. 10. sayeth that Theodosius the Emperour for the appeasing* 1.49 of contention cōmaunded an assemblie of Bishops, & best learned to appeare before him, and eche parte to write a confession of their faith and religion: the which being done at a day appointed, they came to the Courte and deliuered vp their writinges to the Emperour, who after earnest praiers made, perusing the writings that were de∣liuered, rent in pieces the confessions, made by the Arians, and Eunomians, and al∣lowed onely and receyued the confession of the Catholikes.

The practise therefore of the authoritie of Princes in Ecclesiasticall matters, euen in determining and iudging controuersies in Religion, you might haue learned by these examples in Ambrose tyme.

The. 5. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 154.. Sect. vlt.

And by whome can the matters and orders of the Churche be better ordeyned than by the ministers of the Churche? And if that be a good reason of M. Doctor in the fortie and seuenth Page, that the Bishops ought therefore to ordeyne ministers, bycause they are best able to iudge* 1.50 of the learning and abilitie, of those which are the fittest, it is also as good reason that therefore the ministers and gouernours of the Churche should appoynt and decree of suche ceremonies and or∣ders as perteyne to the churche, for bycause it is to be supposed that they can beste iudge of those matters, bestowing their studies that wayes, and further best vnderstanding the state of the church aboute the which they are wholly occupied.

Io. Whitgifte.

This also is a reason of M. Hardinges in the same cause, but it onely preueth that it is moste conuenient and necessarie, that Bishops and ministers of the Church* 1.51 whyle they he learned and godly, may haue the debating and deciding of matters in religion, neyther dothe this derogate any thing from the authoritie of the Prince in the same causes: we sée that matters in lawe are determined by iudges & lawyers: so be other ciuill matters by wise and prudent officers in like manner, and yet is not the authoritie of the Prince thereby abridged: but what if all the ministers of the Churche or moste of them be corrupt and vngodly, as it was in the beginning of the reygnes of Ezechias and Iosias, and as▪ it hath oftentimes bene: must all be com∣mitted to them then also?

No godly Princes hauing godly Bishops and ministers of the Churche, will alter or chaunge, determine or appoynt any thing in matters of religion, without their aduise and counsayle. But how if there be dissention among them, shall not the Prince determine the controuersies, as Constantinus, Theodosius, and other godly Emperours did? wherefore the méetnesse of the Priests and Bishops doth not take away any authoritie, from godly Princes in matters of the Church.

The. 6. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 155. Lin. 5.

And this is not (M. Doctor (*) 1.52 to shake hands with the Papistes. For the Papistes would exempt their Priestes from the subiection and from the punishment of the ciuill magistrate, which we do not. And y^e Papists would that whatsoeuer the cleargy doth determine, that that sorthwith shoulde be holden for good, and the Prince shoulde be foorthwith compelled to mayntayne, and set forth that, be it good or euill, without further inquitie: but we saye (a) 1.53 that if there be no law∣full ministerie to set good orders, as in ruinous decayes and ouerthrowes of religion, that then the Prince ought to do it, and if when there is a lawfull ministerie it shall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order, that the Prince ought to stay that order, and not to suffer it, but to driue them to that whiche is lawfull and meete, and if this be to shake handes with the papistes, then M. Doc∣tor is to blame whiche hath taught vs once or twise before, that the appoynting of ceremonies of the churche, belongeth vnto the churche. And yet I knowe that there is one or two of the later writers that thinke otherwise, but as I take no aduantage of their authoritie which thinke as I do, so I ought not to be preiudiced by those that thinke otherwise. But for so muche as we haue M. Doctor yet of this iudgement that the churche ceremonies shoulde be ordeyned by the church, I will trauayle no further in this matter, considering that the practise of this churche, commonly is to referre these matters vnto the Ecclesiasticall persons onely this is the difference, that where it is done now of one or a fewe, wee desire that it may be done by others also who haue interest in that behalfe.

Io. Whitgifte.* 1.54

Yes in good sooth is it: for M. Harding agaynst the Apologie, confesseth that the Ciuill Magistrate may punishe with corporall punishment any estate or degrée of persons, offending eyther agaynst the first or second table. And Saunders sayeth lib. 2. That Bishops in that they be men, be subiect to ciuill Magistrates: and therefore in that* 1.55

poynt the Papistes graunt as much as you.

Concerning the determination of matters in religion, I know not wherein you differ from them: for though the Prince mislike your determination, yet can he not him selfe conclude any thing, onely he may compell you to go to it agayne and* 1.56 take better holde: but if it shall please you to go forewarde in your determination, or if you cannot agrée among your selues, I see not what authoritie you haue giuen to the Ciuill Magistrate, to determine the matter: but for ought that I can espie, if you and your Seniors be disposed to be peeuishe, eyther muste the Prince haue no Religion, or els that which you shall appoynt vnto him: for potestatem facti, you giue him, that is, you make him your executioner, but potestatem iuris, you do as fully re∣moue from him, as the papists do: for he hath not (as you say) any authoritie to make orders or lawes in Ecclesiasticall matters.

Saunders sayeth, and so say all the Papistes, that he hath authoritatem promo∣uendi* 1.57 religionem: authoritie to promote religion, but not constituendi, to appoynte: and therefore vndoubtedly I perceyue not wherein you differ in this Article from the Papistes. In the chiefe poynt I am sure that you agree fully and flatly with them: and vse their argumentes and none other: that is in this, that you take from the ei∣uill Magistrate omnem potestatem iuris, in matters and causes Ecclesiasticall.

And what Scripture haue you to proue that the ciuill Magistrates authoritie* 1.58 is not as ample and as large in matters of religion, when there is a lawfull ministe∣rie, as when there is an vnlawfull ministerie? In deede when he hath the one he may the more safely vse their aduise, and followe theyr counsell, which he neyther may nor ought to do when he hath the other, but his authoritie is all one ouer them bothe: and surely I marueyle that you will vtter suche straunge assertions, so peremptori∣ly without any kinde of proofe. For you that woulde haue all thinges proued by the Scriptures, haue not in this wayghtie cause vsed one texte of Scripture, but onely one borrowed of the Papistes, and making directly agaynst you.

When I say, that the Churche hath authoritie to appoynt Cere∣monies, I speake generally of all states of the Churche, as well vnder persecu∣tion as vnder a Christian Magistrate, not secluding, but including, the Christian Magistrate as the chiefe and principall gouernour of the Churche committed to him nexte vnder God: for I do not speake of a Christian Magistrate, as you and the Pa∣pistes woulde haue me, to witte, as of Iulius Cesar, Alexander, or Nero: but I speake of him as one appoynted by God to gouerne, not only in the common wealth, but in the Churche also. Yea I will go further with you, I make no difference be∣twixte* 1.59 a Christian common wealth and the Churche of Christe: wonder you as muche at it as you will: I haue shewed my reasons before, and you haue not as yet vsed any to the contrarie, wherefore if you thinke no otherwise of this cause than I haue in these woordes taught you, the ciuill Magistrate shall be much more beholden vnto you, than he is.

Certaynely I knowe not of any of the late wryters (one or two excepted) that are of your iudgement in this cause, and were it not that the same is learnedly and fully handled almoste of all the late wryters, and namely of suche as haue in our tongue notably and learnedly defended this truth of the Princes authoritie in Ec∣clesiasticall matters agaynst the English Louanistes, who haue especially sought to impeach the same, I woulde in more ample manner haue prosecuted this cause. But for as much as their bookes are in euery mans handes, it shall be sufficient to referre the Reader to my Lorde of Sarisburie his defense of the Apologie agaynst Maister Harding, my L. of Winchesters answere to Master Fecknam, & Master Nowels bookes agaynst Dorman, in all which this matter is very learnedly and painefully handled.

Admonition.

Is a reformation good for Fraunce? and can it be euill for England? is discipline meete for Scotlande? and is it vnprofitable for this Realme? Surely God hath set these examples before

your eyes, to encourage you to goe forwarde, to a thorow and a speedie reformation. You may not do as heretofore you haue done, patche and peece, nay rather goe backwarde, and neuer labour to (t) 1.60 contende to perfection. But altogither remoue whole Antichrist bothe head, body, & braunche, and perfectly plant that puritie of the worde; that simplicitie of the sacraments, and that seueritie of discipl ne which Christ hath commaunded, and commended to his church.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 138. Sect. 1.

Hathe there beene no reformation in this Church of Englande si∣thence* 1.61 the Queenes Maiesties reygne? What say you to the abo∣lishing of the vsurped power of the Bishop of Rome? what say you to the banishing of the Masse? Nay what say you to the puritie of doctrine in all poynts perteyning to saluation? Is this no reforma∣tion with you? O intollerable vnthankfulnesse.

T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 1. 2.

The other poynt is in the. 138. page, where he most vntruly and standerously chargeth the Au∣thors of the Admonition, and maketh wonderfull outcries, as though they should denie that there had beene any reformation at all sithence the time that the Queenes Maiestie began to reigne, ma∣nifestly contrarie not only to their meaning, but also to their very words, which appeareth in that they moue to a through reformation, and to contende, or to labour to perfection, denying onely that the reformation which hath beene made in hir Maiesties dayes, is through and perfect. We con∣fesse willingly, that next vnto the Lorde God, that euery one of vs is moste deepely bounde to hir Maiestie, whome he hath vsed as an excellent instrument to deliuer his churche heere, out of the spirituall Egypt of Poperie, and the common wealth also, and the whole lande out of the slauery and subiection of strangers, whervnto it was so neere. This I saye we willingly confesse before men, and do in our prayers dayly giue most humble thanks to God therfore.

And by this humble sute and earnest desire, which we haue for further reformation, we are so farre from vnthankfulnesse vnto hir Maiestie, that wee thereby desire the heape of hir felicitie, and the establishment of hir Royall throne amongst vs, whyche then shall be moste sure and vnre∣moued, when our Sauiour Christ sytteth wholly and fully, not onely in his chayre to teache, but also in his throne to rule, not alone in the heartes of euery one by his spirite, but also generally and in the visible gouernment of his churche, by those lawes of discipline which he hath prescribed.

Io. Whitgifte.

The words of the Admonition, page. 137. be these: Is a reformation good for Fraimce.* 1.62 &c. and can it be euill for Englande? is discipline meete for Scotlande. &c. and is it vnprofitable for this Realme? To this I answering say, hathe there beene no reformation in the Church of Englande since the Queenes Maiesties reigne &c. what wonderfull outeryes these be, or howe vntrue slaunders, let the discrete Rea∣der iudge. Doth not he that sayth (is a reformation good for Fraunce, and can it be euill for Englande) insinuate that there is no reformation in Englande? In the same place they say, that hitherto we haue but patched and peeced, my rather gone backwarde. Moreouer to what ende dothe their booke tende, but to the defacing of this reformation? What is it that eyther they or you commende or lyke in this Churche? nay what is it that you mislike not? For, to the sinceritie of doctrine, as it appeareth, you haue little re∣garde: all things else you vtterly cast downe: neyther the authoritie of the Prince, the ministerie, the gouernment of the Churche, the administration of the Sacra∣ments, the ceremonies, the discipline, the forme or matter of publike prayers, nor* 1.63 almoste any thing else can please you: and howsoeuer nowe in wordes you confesse, that you are most deepely bounde vnto hir Maiestie. &c. yet bothe in tongue and in deede, dy∣ners of you declare, that your meaning is nothing lesse. For why doe you then so vn∣orderly, so vndoubtedly, so spitefully, publikely and priuately, in worde and in wry∣ting deface hir procéedings, slaunder hir gouernment, depraue the reformation that she hathe made, with sectes and schismes deuide the Realme, set dissention among the people, make the Papists more stubborne, driue those backe that were welnighe persuaded, thrust a misliking of the state into the hearts of many Protestantes, en∣courage

hir aduersaries, separate hir faythfull subiectes one from another, and great∣ly disquiet hir selfe? But I will not prosecute this matter: onely I desire of God most hartily, that it would please him to worke that minde and affection in you in deede, that becommeth dutifull subiects, and quiet members of the Churche.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 138. Sect. 1.

Englande is not bounde to the example eyther of Fraunce or* 1.64 Scotlande: I woulde they bothe were (if it pleased God) tou∣ching Religion, in that state and condition that Englande is. I woulde Antichriste were as farre from them remoued. The Lorde make vs thankfull, and continue this reformation we haue, and graunt peace to his Church, and eyther couuert the hearts of those that be enimies vnto it, or remoue them.

T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 3. & Pag. 156. Sect. 1.

And whereas M. Doctor would bring vs into a foolish paradise of our selues, as thoughe we neede not to learne any thing at the churches of Fraunce and Scotland, he should haue vnderstan∣ded, that as we haue bin vnto them in example, and haue prouoked them to follow vs, so the Lord will haue vs also profite, and be prouoked by their example, and so be mutual helpes one to an other, and stirre vp our selues with the admonition that our sauiour Christe stirred vp his Apostles, that oftentimes those that are first are not forwardest, but are ouerrunne of others that come after. And wheras he would (*) 1.65 priuily pinche at the reformation there, for so muche as the Lorde hathe* 1.66 humbled the one, and exerciseth the other by ciuill warres and troubles, he should haue in steade of rocking vs a sleape in our securitie, put vs in remembrance of Gods scourges which hang ouer vs, and of Gods great patience that still tarrieth for our repentance, and that if he haue punished that people of his, which haue suffered so muche for the profession of the gospell, and which went with so straight a foote in it, with an vniuersall hazarde of their goods and lyues, that we shall not escape vnlesse we repent speedily of our coldnesse and halting in religion, and vnwillingnesse, I will not say to hazarde to put our lyues in daunger, but not to leese some of our wealth and honour, for the obteyning of a through reformation of the Church, and aduauncement of the glory of the Lorde.

Finally, he would rather haue put vs in remembrance of the sermon which our sauiour Christ* 1.67 maketh, where he sheweth that those cities are not alwayes the greatest sinners, or those whome God is most angry with, which haue the heauiest iudgements executed vpon them, but that therby the Lord calleth vs to repentance, otherwise that we shall likewise perishe. This had beene more fit for our estate to haue beene sayde, than to haue after a sort (*) 1.68 insulted vpon the afflicted, and daubed vp our eyes, that we should not see our miserie and our nakednesse.

Io. Whitgifte.

I haue sayde truely, that we are not bounde to their examples: I doe not denie* 1.69 but that examples may be followed, and one ought to followe an other in that which is good and conuenient. But I haue shewed before, that one Churche is not bound of necessitie in all things to followe an other: onely the Church of Rome is so arrogant and proude as to chalenge that prerogatiue.

I haue great cause to expostulate with you, for this your vnchristian, vnbrother∣ly, and most vniust handling of me. For where, or in what words doe I pinche at their reformation? Wherein doe I vse any insultation vpon the afflicted, and agaynst them? is this to pinche at them, or to insult agaynst them, to wishe that touching religion, they were in that state and condition that Englande is? to wish that vnto them, that they grone for themselues? Surely fleshe and bloud will hardely suffer me to put vp this iniurie: But I am taught patience I thanke God, and the Lorde forgiue you, & roote out that roote of bitternesse that is so déepe in your heart.

Admonition.

And heere to ende, we desire al to suppose that we haue not attempted this enterprise for vayne glory, gayne, preferment, or any other worldly respect.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 139. Sect. 1.

I would to God you were as free from vayne glory, ambition,

and malice, and other sinister affections, as you would seeme to be: but no indifferent man reading your booke, will so thinke of you, for besides the opprobrious and vnseemely termes you vse towardes your superiours, your Admonition smelleth altogither of popula∣ritie and vayne glory.

Admonition.

Neyther yet iudging our selues, so exactly to haue set out the state of the Churche reformed as that nothing more could be added, or a more perfect forme and order drawne, for that were great presumption, to arrogate so muche vnto our selues, seeing that as we are but weake and simple soules, so God hath raysed vp men of profounde iudgement, and notable learning.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 139. Sect 3.

And yet in the beginning of your booke, you call it a true plat∣forme of a Churche reformed: and I dare saye you thinke it to be as perfect a forme of a Church, as al the best learned & godlyest men in the worlde could frame: for it is well knowne that men of your disposition, thinke commonly as well of them selues, as they doe of* 1.70 any man else, and better too. But we graunt vnto you, that you are so farre from setting downe a perfect state of a Churche reformed, that you maye rather be called confounders and deformers, than buylders and reformers.

Admonition.

But therby to declare our good wils towards the setting forth of Gods glory, and the building vp of his Church, accounting this as it were but an entrance into further matter, hoping that our God, who hath in vs begon this good worke, will not onely in time hereafter make vs strong, and able to goe forwarde therein: but also moue other vpon whome he hath bestowed greater measure of his giftes and graces, to labour more thorowly and fully in the same.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 140.

God graunt that you maye become buylders and not destroyers: I thinke in deede you haue but begonne: I knowe there is other* 1.71 opinions among you, whiche be not yet commonly knowne: and truely I doubt that you will neuer ende: but from tyme to tyme coyne newe deuises to trouble the Church, vntill you haue brought that heuy plague of God vpō vs, which the like kind of mē through their schismes and heresies haue brought vpon all those places al∣most, where any of the Apostles preached, and where the Gospell* 1.72 was first planted: and commonly before ruine and destruction, com∣meth inwarde discorde and domesticall dissention.

The Lorde make vs thankfull for the puritie of his Gospell, that we by his mercy enioy: the Lorde roote out schismes and factions from among vs, and eyther conuerte or confounde the authors of them: The Lorde of his singular goodnesse continue our gracious Queene Elizabeth vnto vs, and giue vs faythfull and obedient hearts to his worde, and to hir Maiestie. Amen.

T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 1.

In all the rest M. Doctor hath nothing but wordes of reproche agaynst the authors of the Admonition, and calling styll, as his maner is, for more punishment for them, which I will not bestowe the answere of.

Io. Whitgifte.

And to this ende haue I héere set my wordes downe, that the Reader may vnder∣stande what wordes of reproche those be that you charge me with, but seeing it will not please you to bestowe the answere of them, I shall also be content to spare so muche labour.

Admonition.

Where as immediately after the last Parliament, holden at Westminster, begon in Anno. 1570. and ended Anno. 1571. the ministers of Gods holy worde and sacraments were called before hir Maiesties highe Commissioners, and enforced to subscribe vnto the Articles, if they would keepe their places and liuings and some for refusing to subscribe, were vnbrotherly and vncharitably en∣treated, and from their offices and places remoued: May it please therfore this honorable and high Court of Parliament in consideration of the premises, to take a view of suche causes as then dyd withholde, and nowe dothe the foresayde Ministers, from subscribing and consenting vnto those foresayde Articles, by way of purgation to discharge themselues of all disobedience towards the Churche of God, and their Soueraigne, and by way of moste humble entreatie, for the remouing away and vtter abolishing of all suche corruptions and abuses, as withhelde them, through which this long time, brethren haue bin at vnnaturall warre and strife among them selues, to the hinde∣rance of the gospell, to the ioy of the wicked, and to the griefe and dismay of all those that professe Christian religion, and labour to atteyne Christian reformation.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 146. 147. 148.

You complayne muche of vnbrotherly and vncharitable entrea∣ting* 1.73 of you, of remouing you from your offices, and places. Surely in this poynt I must compare you to certayne Heretikes that were in Augustines time, who moste bitterly by sundry meanes afflicting and molesting the true ministers of the Churche, yet for all that cried out, that they were extremely dealt with, and cruelly persecuted by them: or else vnto a shrewde and vngratious wyfe, which beating hir husbande, by hir clamorous complaynts, maketh hir neighbours* 1.74 beleeue that hir husbande beateth hir: or to him that is mentioned in Erasmus collequies, that dyd steale and runne away with the Priestes purse▪ and yet cried alwayes as he ranne, stay the theefe, stay the theefe, and thus crying escaped, and yet he was the theefe him selfe. You are as gentlye entreated as maye be, no kinde of brotherly persuation omitted towards you, most of you as yet keepe your liuings, though some one or two be displaced, you are offered all kinde of friendlynesse, if you could be content to conforme your selues, yea but to be quiet and holde your peace. You on the contrary side moste vnchristianly, and moste vnbrotherly, bothe publikely and priuately rayle on those, that shewe this humanitie towards you, slaunder them by all meanes you can, and moste vntruely reporte of them. seeking by all meanes their discredite. Agayne they as their* 1.75 allegiance to the Prince, and duetie to lawes requireth, yea and as some of them by othe are bounde, doe execute that discipline whiche the Prince, the lawe, and theyr othe requireth: you contrarie to all obedience, duetie, and othe, openly violate, and breake those lawes, orders, and statutes, whiche you ought to obey, and to the whiche* 1.76 some of you by othe is bounde. If your doings proceede in deede from a good conscience, then leaue that liuing and place, which byn∣deth you to those things that be agaynst your conscience, for why shoulde you striue with the disquietnesse, bothe of your selues and

others, to keepe that liuing which by lawe you can not, excepte you offend agaynst your conscience? Or what honestie is there to sweare to statutes and lawes, and when you haue so done, contrary to your othe to breake them, and yet still to remayne vnder them, and enioy that place which requireth obedience, and subiection to them? For my parte I thinke it muche better, by remouing you from your ly∣uings to offende you, than by suffering you to enioy them, to offende the Prince, the lawe, conscience, and God. And before God I speake it, if I were persuaded as you seeme to be, I woulde rather quietly forsake all the liuings I haue, than be an occasion of strife, and con∣tention in the Church, and a cause of stumbling to the weake, and reioycing to the wicked. I knowe God woulde prouide for me, if I did it, bona conscientia: yea surely I woulde rather dye, than be an author of schismes, a disturber of the common peace, and quietnesse of the Church and state. There is no reformed Churche that I can heare* 1.77 tell of, but it hath a certayne prescript and determinate order, aswel touching ceremonies, and discipline, as doctrine, to the whiche all those are constrayned to giue their consent, that will liue vnder the protection of it: and why then maye not this Churche of Englande haue so in like maner? Is it meete that euery man should haue his owne phansie, or liue as him liste? Truely I knowe not where∣vnto these your dooings can tende, but eyther to Anabaptisme, or to meere confusion. But nowe to the reasons that moue you, not to subscribe to those Articles ministred vnto you, by hir Maiesties highe Commissioners.

T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2.

Sed etiam quodam in loco facetus esse voluisti. Deus bone, quam te illud non decet. Heere M.* 1.78 Doctor was disposed to make him selfe, and his Reader merie, but it is with the bagpipe or coun∣trey mirth, not with the harpe or lute, which the learned were wont to handle. For he hath packed by togither the olde tale of the curst wyfe, and of the thiefe that tooke away the Priests purse, very familiar and homely geare: It might peraduenture make M. Doctor hoppe about the house, but the learned and the wyse, can not daunce by this instrument.

It pleaseth M. Doctor to compare those which be put out of their liuings without iust cause, to heretikes. curst wyues, and to theeues, but all men do vnderstande how rightly. What his trou∣bles be within, and in his conscience, the Lorde God and he knoweth best, but as for the outwarde persecution which he suffreth, it is not suche as he neede thus to stoupe and to grone, and to blowe vnderneath it, as though he had some great burthen vpon his shoulders. And if he cōplayne of the persecution of the tongue, to let passe his immoderate heate of speeche, whych he vseth with those that he hathe to doe withall, the tongue whiche is more intemperate than his is in all his booke, shall hardely be founde.

Io. Whitgifte.

And I thanke God, I can be mery with the bagpype, I am neyther ashamed of the Instrument, nor of the countrey. But what diuinitie call you this? alacke poore spite at the bagpipe. Surely you doe me a pleasure when you tell me of it. You haue omitted nothing that by any meanes might serue you for a iest. O great grauitie. &c. But let vs leaue puerilia, pueris.

I knowe none of you put from your liuings, without moste iuste cause: if there be any iniuried that wayes (God be thanked) they maye finde iustice. My quietnesse with∣in my conscience (I moste humbly thanke my God therefore) dothe mitigate the

heate of the slaunderous generation, and maketh me more willing to deale agaynst that secte, that can not be maynteyned without suche kinde of vncharitable, and slaunderous dealing. I remember what Cyprian sayth to Cornelius Epist. lib. 1. Eccle∣siasticall* 1.79 discipline is not therefore to be lefte of, nor the seueritie that becommeth a Priest to be slackned, bicause we are reuiled and euill spoken of. &c. And agayne: The oppro∣brious speeches of the wicked ought not to moue vs so, that we decline from the righte way, and the sure rule, seeing that the Apostle instructeth vs, saying: If I ▪shoulde please men, I were not the seruant of Christ. If the heate of my tongue be immoderate, what shall be sayde of yours? But this kinde of dealing is nothing méete for vs. Wherefore if you continue in this vayne, you shall haue the best game for me.

T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2.

And althoughe it be vnreasonable inoughe, that he shoulde not giue men leaue to complayne of their troubles, when he glorieth in troubling them, yet that of all is most vntollerable, that besides the iniurie which he dothe them, he is angry that they wyll not lay handes of them selues by ca∣sting themselues out of their liuings, or euer they be cast out by him. Tully maketh mention of one C. Fimbria, whiche when he had caused Q. Sceuola a singular man to be wounded, and sawe that he dyed not of it, conuented him before the Iudges, and beeing asked what he had to accuse him of, answered, for that he dyd not suffer the whole weapon wherewith he was striken, to enter into hys body: euen so M. Doctor contenteth not him selfe only to doe iniuries vnto men, but ac∣cuseth them also, that they will not doe it vnto them selues, or that they would not willingly suffer his weapons enter so farre, as he would haue them.

Io. Whitgifte.

I trust there is not one that can iustly saye, I haue without great cause molested him: if there be any suche, or whome I haue by any meanes iniuried, I refuse not to answere, and to satisfie him: yea it is my desire that it maye come to the triall, so shall many slaunderous spéeches, togither with the authors of them be founde as they are.

C. Fimbria was a very proude, sedicious Romane, and one that disquieted the* 1.80 state of the common wealth, and greatly enuied his superiours. Q. Sceuola was a wyse and a prudent Senatour, one that liued in authoritie, and obserued lawes him selfe, and caused the same to be obserued by other. Sceuola surely you can not be, for you are neyther of that credite, for wisdome, nor of that authoritie in the cōmon wealth, nor so diligent an obseruer of good orders and lawes: your conditions come nearer to Fimbria, I will not conclude, you shall doe it your selfe.

If I haue done you any iniurie, prosecute it to the vttermoste, and spare not, I ne∣uer entreated you to holde your peace. The greatest iniurie that I acknowledge my selfe guiltie of, is vnto the Colledge, that I so long suffered you contrarie to your expresse othe, to vsurpe a place therein, to the great hinderaunce and disquieting thereof.

T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2.

What conscience is there that bindeth a man to depart from his liuing, in that place where he liketh not of all the orders which are there vsed? Is it not inough to abstayne from them, if there be any euill in them, or to declare the vnlawfulnesse of thē, if his calling do suffer him, when as the reformation is not in his power? And if eyther of this absteyning, or declaration of thys vnlaw∣fulnesse of them, troubles be moued, there is no more cause why they should giue place, than the other which like of those disorders, yea there is lesse cause, for that they are not the causes of trouble but the other, and for that by their departure out of their places, roome is made for those which will lyke of those disorders, whiche the other misliked, whiche is to the hurte of that companie, or con∣gregation in suche places.

Io. Whitgifte.

If he be sworne to kéepe those orders kéeping his liuing: if as honest men as he is will lyke of them: If his equals, or rather betters, might supply his place: I thinke he ought rather to satisfie his othe, or to refuse his liuing, if he wyll auoyde periurie:

yea though there were no such méete persons to succéede him. But if the case be this, that a man shall directly sweare, eyther to doe such a thing by such a tyme, or to leaue his place, if by that time he neyther do the thing by othe required, nor leaue his place, but still vsurpe the same, at the least the space of fiue yeres: I thinke he ought to be displaced for periurie: whiche is a greater matter than eyther cappe or surplesse. I doe but nowe put a case, that men may vnderstande euery man that is displaced, not to be displaced without great and vrgent occasion. I woulde not enter into thys vayne, if I were not vrged. Therefore to answere in one worde for all, I haue put no man out of his liuing, but there is greater cause why he should be ashamed to cō∣playne of iniurie, than I, to doe according to my othe and duetie.

T. C. Pag. 156. tovvards the ende.

And as for M. Doctors easinesse to depart from his liuing, rather than he woulde cause any trouble, he giueth men great cause to doubt of, whiche hauing diuers great liuings, and amongest them a benefice, is very loth to goe from troubling of others, to doe his duetie at any of them. It is true that the Church of England may haue an order, whervnto it may iustly require the subscrip∣tion of the ministers in Englande. And so is it likewyse vntrue, that we desire that euery one shoulde haue his owne fansie, and lyue as him listeth, for we also desire an vniforme order, but suche, and in suche sorte, as we haue before declared. As for the olde accusation of Anabaptisme and confusion, it is answered before, therfore according to my promise, I will leaue your words, and if you haue any matter, I will speake to that.

Io. Whitgifte.

This was obiected and answered before: God knoweth my heart, and I am rea∣dy to giue myne accompte when I am therevnto by order called: orders you wyll admitte, but suche as pleaseth you, that is, you will be in order, if you maye doe what you liste.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Where is the princes autho ritie?
• (a) 1.2

  Note these speaches,
• (b) 1.3

  VVhat{reversed ?} no more but to see them executed{reversed ?} how differeth this from Papi∣strie{reversed ?}
• (c) 1.4

  The prince spoyled of au¦thoritie to make Ecclesiasticall orders.
• * 1.5

  The Admoni tors and T. C. ioyne with the Papistes against the Queenes su∣premacie in matters eccle∣siasticall.
• * 1.6

  〈◊◊◊◊◊〉〈◊◊◊◊◊〉
• * 1.7

  〈◊◊◊◊◊〉〈◊◊◊◊◊〉
• * 1.8

  Saunders & the Rep〈1 line〉〈1 line〉er agree.
• * 1.9

  Saunders.
• * 1.10

  Pag. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉5. in the miast.
• * 1.11

  Pag. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Sed 1.
• * 1.12

  Musculus.
• * 1.13

  〈◊〉〈◊〉 autho∣ritie Pap〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ts giue to the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 in ec∣〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• * 1.14

  Saunders.
• * 1.15

  Potestas facti, not iuris, ascri∣bed to the ma∣gistrates.
• * 1.16

  2. Admonit. pag. 60.
• * 1.17

  Musculus.
• * 1.18

  A note of A∣nabaptisme practised by y^e Rep〈1 line〉〈1 line〉r.
• (*) 1.19

  Pag. 2. sect. 2.
• * 1.20

  You alleage the reasons of the Papilies to the same purpose with them
• (*) 1.21

  〈1 line〉〈1 line〉
• * 1.22

  Hebr. 5.
• * 1.23

  The 〈◊〉〈◊〉 vseth the same distinction & reasons with the Papistes.
• * 1.24

  Saunders. li. 2. cap. 1. fol. 57.
• * 1.25

  The place of the Replier a∣gaynst him∣selfe.
• * 1.26

  Leuites be∣ing Ecclesi∣asticall per∣sons had to d〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 in ciuill mat∣ters.
• * 1.27

  Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Const. epi. ad Euseb. Sozom. lib. 1. cap. 17 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. tom. con.
• (*) 1.28

  A great o∣uersight. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉
• * 1.29

  Euseb. lib. 1. de vita Const. Constantinus his rule in ec∣clesiasticall matters.
• * 1.30

  Lib. 2.
• * 1.31

  Epist. ad Eu∣sel.
• * 1.32

  〈◊〉〈◊〉 grosse o∣uersight of T. C.
• * 1.33

  Lib. 2. Eus. de vita Con lant. Epist. ad Eus.
• * 1.34

  Eusthius go∣uernour of me churches than one.
• * 1.35

  The place a∣gaynst 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• * 1.36

  Christian Princes haue exercised su∣〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 autho∣ritie in eccle∣siastical cases. Sozomenus. lib. 1. cap. 17.
• * 1.37

  A wise prince will take the aduise of the learned in dis∣cussing of weighty mat∣ters.
• * 1.38

  Iustinian made many Ecclesiasticall lawes.
• * 1.39

  Constanti∣nus▪ rogon▪ gouerned the councell of Constantino∣ple. on. 681.
• * 1.40

  Conc. Chalced▪ Euagr lib. 2. cap. 4.
• * 1.41

  5. Lib. epist. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉2.
• * 1.42

  Another rea∣son of the Pa∣pists agaynst the authoritie of the ciuil magistrate.
• * 1.43

  6. Parte. 14. Chap. 5. Diui∣sion.
• * 1.44

  Why Am∣brose refused to come at the Emperours commaunde∣ment.
• * 1.45

  The auncient Fathers haue committed the deciding of controuersies to Empe∣rours.
• * 1.46

  Athanasius Apol. 2.
• * 1.47

  August. con∣tra epist. Par∣men. lib. 1.
• * 1.48

  Sozom. lib. 4. 16.
• * 1.49

  Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 10.
• * 1.50

  An other argu ment of the Pa∣pistes to the same purpose.
• * 1.51

  The debating and deciding of matters in religion by bishops, doth not derogate from the prin∣ces authoritie.
• (*) 1.52

  It is nothing els, as will ap∣peare.
• (a) 1.53

  Why then more than at eiher timess or hawe proue you this▪
• * 1.54

  The papistes confese that the prince may punish priest, 5, Harding.
• * 1.55

  Saunders li, 2.
• * 1.56

  The Replier giueth to the Prince no more than potestatem fa∣cti.
• * 1.57

  Saunders.
• * 1.58

  The Replier vttreth strāge doctrine with out proofe: & yet woulde haue all pro∣ued by scrip∣ture.
• * 1.59

  No suche dif∣ference be∣tweene a chri∣stian common wealth & the Church as is pretended.
• (t) 1.60

  Heb. 6. 1.
• * 1.61

  Unthankful∣nesse of the Ad monitors.
• * 1.62

  The Admo∣nitors, and the Replyer mis∣like our refor∣mation almost wholly.
• * 1.63

  The good they acknow∣ledge of the Queene dis∣sembled.
• * 1.64

  Englande is not bounde to other Chur∣ches for ex∣amples.
• (*) 1.65

  A slanderous and malicious vntruthe.
• * 1.66

  Mat. 20.
• * 1.67

  Luk. 13.
• (*) 1.68

  God roote out of you this malicious spi∣rite, which de∣liceth in slaun∣ders.
• * 1.69

  No Churche may chalenge to be a patern necessarie to be followed.
• * 1.70

  Men thinke too well of themselues.
• * 1.71

  Suspected o∣pinions be∣hinde.
• * 1.72

  Domesticall dissention for〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 runner of destruction▪
• * 1.73

  Complaynte of persecution without cause
• * 1.74

  Persecution of the tongue.
• * 1.75

  Disobediēce.
• * 1.76

  A token of a good consci∣ence.
• * 1.77

  Euery church hath a deter∣minate order of ceremonies
• * 1.78

  Pleasant diui∣nitie.
• * 1.79

  Cyprian.
• * 1.80

  C. Fimbria. Q. Sceuola.