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I will answere therefore almoste in as many wordes as the questions be asked. If one of the Parentes be neyther drunkarde nor adulterer, the chylde is holy by vertue of the couenante, for one of the Parents sakes. If they be both, and yet not obstinate in their synne, whereby the Churche hath not proceeded to excommunication, (them selues beyng yet of the Churche) theyr chylde can∣not,
nor ought not to be refused. To the seconde question, wherein he asketh what if the chylde be of Papistes or heretykes. If both be Papistes or condemned heretikes (if so be I may distinguishe Papistes from heretikes) and cut of from the church, their children cannot be receyued, bicause they are not in the coucnant, if either of them be faythfull, I haue answered before that it ought to bee receyued.
To other questions wherin he asketh, what if they erre in some poyntes of matters of fayth. If it be but an error, and be not in those pointes which rase the foundations of fayth, bicause they styll, notwithstanding their error are to be counted amongst the faythfull, their children pertcyne vnto the promyse, and therefore to the sacrament of the promise.
Surely these be very short answeres for so waighty questions, and so necessary* 1.1 poyntes of doctrine: wyll you presume thus to determine in matters of saluation and danmation, the doctrine being so straunge and vnheard of, without either scripture, reason, or other authoritie? are we nowe come to (ipse dixit)? nay it may not be so, you haue no such authoritie or credite ye I know. But let vs a little better cōsider your as∣sertions, and marke your drifte, Page. 34. you saye that there are no whoremongers, nor* 1.2 drunkardes in the churche that are knowem, bycause the churche doth excommunicate them, wher∣by you seme to runne headlong into this heresye of the Anabaptistes, that, that is not the Churche of Christe, in the whiche are knowen drunkardes and whoremongers, & no excommunication vsed against them. The whiche heresye is well and learnedlye* 1.3 confuted by M. Caluine in his booke against the Anabap. and by M. Bullinger likewyse, Lib. 6. cap. 10. aduersus Anabap.
Moreouer this your assertion séemeth to bring in rebaptisation. For if whoremon∣gers,* 1.4 drunkardes, and such lyke wycked persones by excommunication be so cut of from the Churche, that their children may not be baptised, then must it followe that their baptisme is cut of also: which if it be true, howe can they vpon repentance be admitted againe except they be rebaptised? and what is this else but to make baptis∣me, to be iterated as the Lorde▪ supper is, when as by the consent of all the Chur∣ches,* 1.5 there is but one baptisme, wherewith it is sufficient once to be Christened, sée∣ing that baptisme once receyued doth endure for euer, as a perpetuall signe of our ad∣option. And how can you allowe the baptisme of heretikes to be good, if you disallowe the baptising of their children that be excommunicated? may an heretike excommu∣nicated baptise, and is that baptisme good, and may not the children of hym that is ex∣communicated receyue the sacrament of baptisme? can any faulte of the parentes, ha∣uing once receyued the scale of the couenant, seclude their chyldren from rcceyuing the same seale? you haue neyther example nor precept in scripture to iustifie your as∣sertion with: it is against the nature of the sacrament, the practise of the Church, and the whole consent of learned wryters (some fewe excepted which erred in rebaptisa∣tion) and yet you boldely here set it downe, without any further proofe at all.
S. Augustine in his booke Contraepist. Parme. reasoneth wholy to the contrary, for there he proueth that heretikes whiche cut of them selues from the Churche, do ney∣ther* 1.6 amittere baptismum, nor ius dandi baptismum, that is, neither leese their baptisme, nor au∣thoritie to baptise: and therevpon concludeth against rebaptisation, whiche must néedes followe if eyther of the other be taken away. The Donatistes them selues were at the length compelled to confesse, that heretikes deuided from the churche, did not amitte〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e bapt〈1 line〉〈1 line〉smum, leese their baptisme. And in the same booke August. hath this ge∣nerall sentence, That the faulte of such heretikes, is in cutting of them selues from the churche, which may be corrected by returning againe to the churche, non in sacramentis quae vbicunque sunt, ipsa vera sunt, not in the sacramentes, which wheresoeuer they are, are true. This being so (as it is) then are you very nere to Donatisme, nay farre beyonde it, in* 1.7 saying that the chyldren of the heretykes, and suche as by excommunication are cut of from the Churche, maye not be baptised. Surelye if the Parentes beyng here∣tikes
and cut of from the Churche, do notwithstanding Retinere baptismum, keepe styll their baptisme, (as Saint Augustine sayeth) I sée not howe by any meanes you can iustifie the secluding of theyr chyldren from being baptysed: or if otherwyse I can not sée howe a Papiste beyng conuerted, can bee receyued into the Churche, without he bée anewe baptysed, or howe suche chyldren of knowen Papistes, and excommu∣nicate persones, as haue bene baptised in this Churche of Englande or else •• here, from the beginning of the Gospell to this daye, can be coumpted Christians, vnlesse they be rebaptised.
And concernyng Papistes, whome you haue denyed to bée in the Churche,* 1.8 and to whose chyldren also you here denye baptisme, I wyll aske you but this one question, what you thynke of all those, whiche are not onelye chyldren to professed and knowen Papistes, but baptised also in the Romishe Churche? for if the chyl∣dren of knowen Papistes, may not be baptysed, what shall wée saye of our selues, and of our Parentes and predecessours, who all, or the moste of them were profes∣sed Papistes? is not this the grounde of Rebaptisation, and Anabaptisme?
But that the Reader maye the better vnderstande your erroure, and the rather beléeue it to be an errour in dée〈1 line〉〈1 line〉, I wyll set downe M. Beza his opinion of this mat∣ter, from whome you are lothe (I am sure) to be thought to dissent. In his booke of Epistles, Epist. 10 answering this question (whether the infantes of suche as are excom∣municated* 1.9 may be baptised, and in whose fayth, when as they of whome they are begotten, are not members of the Churche) determineth thus.
God forbidde that we should iudge all one and a lyke of all suche as are not called the members of the Churche, for there are foure kyndes of men farre differing among them selues. One is of them, whiche neyther by election, neyther in them selues are by anye meanes the members of Christe, whome we cal by the worde of God reprobate and the ves∣sels of anger, and appointed to destruction, although many of them sometime in appa∣rance, that is in outwarde profession, yea and a certayne semblance of faythe, continuing for a tyme, wherewith they mocke both them selues and other, are reckened among the mem∣bers of the Churche, of whome Iohn sayeth, if they had bene of vs, they would haue taryed with vs.
The seconde is of those, whiche are chosen in Christe by eternall election, and there∣fore are the members of Christe, yet by purpose onelye not in deede: in whiche sense Paule sayth that he was seuered from his mothers wombe, when as notwithstanding, hee was a long tyme the member of Sathan persecuting Christ: and in an other place sayeth, that grace was giuen vs in Christe before euerlasting tymes: and agayne, that God loued vs when we were his enemies.
In the thyrde kynde wee counte them, that bothe by election and in deede are the sonnes of God, bycause as the Apostle sayth, they are ruled by the spirite of God.
Finally, in the fourth place wee recken those, who whereas they appertayne to the e∣lection of God, and be engraffed in Christ, yet bycause hauing fallen in some thing (as men often doe) they be an offence to the other members, therefore least the wound should bee deadlye, whiche Sathan and the fleshe hath gyuen them, neede a more sharpe remedye, and are therfore excommunicated or delyuered to Sathan, not that they should peryshe (for it is not possible that they should peryshe whiche are the members of Christe) But that god∣lye sorowefulnesse may cause repentance, eyther that their fleshe (that is the olde man) dying, their spirite may be saued in the daye of the Lorde.
These therefore be they whome we call excommunicated, and who for two respectes are not members of the Churche, one according to men, bycause they are excluded from the holy felowship of the faythfull: the other according to God, bycause that saying of Christe is sure, that, that is bounde in heauen, whiche is ryghtlye bounde of the Churche in the earth.
But it is an other thyng truelye to bee bounde in heauen, than to bee cast out of that true kyngdome of heauen, whiche neuer happeneth to anye of the electe. For that say∣ing of Christe standeth, that those shall neuer bee caste out whome the Father hath giuen
the Sonne: and that of Lohn, if they had bene of vs, they woulde haue taried with vs: and that of the Apostle, the foundation of God standeth sure, hauing this seale, the Lorde knoweth who be 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉is. Therefore as touching Christe, these are sayd not to be his, nor mem∣bers of the Churche, not as the firste whiche are reprobate and damned, but bycause for a tyme as concernyng the force and efficacie of the spirite, they are without hym, as beyng so engraffed in hym, that they receyue not that lyuelye nouryshement of the spirite of Christe for a tyme, that is, tyll grace of repentaunce be gyuen them. To conclude, the difference betwixt these and the firste is such, as is betweene a legge of woode ioyned cunninglye to a true bodye (whiche notwithstanding is not a legge in deede, neyther is truely called a parte of that man) and betwyxt a true legge, that yet for a tyme receyueth not nouryshement in suche sorte, that vnles it be refreshed by the strengthe of some sharpe medicine, it wyll ne∣cessaryly putrific and cleane peryshe. VVherefore seeing these thinges be thus, and charitie byddeth vs to hope well of all, yea and also to take care for them, whiche are helde as captiues in the snare of the Deuyll: God forbydde that the Parentes beyng excommuni∣cated, wee should conclude that theyr posteritie belongeth not to the kyngdome of God. Furthermore, there is great difference betweene those, whiche although they bee noto∣rious offendours, neuerthelesse departe not from the Churche, and betweene those that are manifeste rennegates, ioyning them selues with the enimies to oppresse the truthe of the Gospell. Further, it were vnreasonable to esteeme of Papistes, muche lesse Christi∣ans excommunicated, no otherwise than of Turkes: for although it bee vnpossible to serue the Pope and Christ togyther, yet it is certayne that Poperie is an erring of the Christian Churche. VVherefore the Lorde hath in the middest of that goulfe of Pa∣pistrie preserued Baptisme, that is the first entering into the Churche: whereby it appea∣reth (as also the thing it selfe proueth in vs) that although Papisme be not the Churche, yet the Churche hathe bene and is (as it were) drowned or couered in it: whiche can not by anie meanes bee sayde of the Turkes, whiche neuer gaue theyr names to Chryst. Lastly, for so muche as the goodnesse of God is extended to a thousande generations, that is (as it were) without ende, it were harde if wee shoulde iudge of the children, whe∣ther they belong to the couenant of God or no, by the profession of their last Parentes. Therefore of all these argumentes ioyned togither, we conclude that the children of per∣sons excommunicate, abyding yet in the Churche of God, can by no right bee debar∣red from Baptisme, if in case a meete suretie bee had, whiche will make promyse to the Church that they shall be vertuously brought vp, which I thinke ought to be done of the Ministers them selues, and other Godly men, rather than theyr Baptisme shoulde anie longer be deferred. Yet it shall not be amisse, if the Minister before he baptise the infant, taking hereof occasion, earnestly exhort the father that is excommunicated being present, to 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉epentance before the assemblie, whiche is oftentymes practised in oure Churches. Hitherto Beza.
The presump tiō of the Re∣plier.
Pag. 34. Sect. 1
Caluine. Bullinger.
The assertion of the Replier tendeth to re∣baptisation.
Baptisme once ministred remaineth per petuall.
Heretikes loose not their baptisme.
The Replier nere to Do∣natis〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e.
Pag. 34. Sect. vii.
Beza li. Epist. Epist. 10.