The defense of the aunsvvere to the Admonition against the replie of T.C. By Iohn VVhitgift Doctor of Diuinitie. In the beginning are added these. 4. tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the replie. 2 Of falsifications and vntruthes. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table generall.

¶The Sacramentes ministred by other than Ministers.

Chap. 5. The fyrst Diuision.

Admonition.

Then by ministers (vv) 1.1 only, nowe by Midwyues, and Deacons equally.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 93. Sect. 2.

That then the Sacraments wer ministred only by ministers, you* 1.2 alledge the. 28. of Math. which place is answered before. Likewise. 1. Cor 4. Let a man so think of vs as of the ministers of Christ, & disposers of the mysteries of God. Here is not one word for your purpose, except you take mysteries for sacramentes, which if you doe, you are much* 1.3 deceiued: for by the word mysteries here, he vnderstandeth the word of God, and gospell of Christ, as al learned writers do interprete it.

Io. Whitgifte.

Nothing answered to the vnapt allegation of the. 1. Cor. 4.

Chap. 5. the. 2. Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 93. Sect. 2.

We reade in the eight of the Actes, that Philip a Deacon did bap∣tize:* 1.4 wee reade also, that Moyses wife did circumcise. But where doth this Churche of Englande allowe any woman to baptize, or deacon to celebrate the Lordes Supper? And if it did, the dignitie of the Sacramentes do not depende vpon the man, be he minister or not minister, be he good or euill. Lette euery one take heede, that

they doe not vsurpe that authoritie wherevnto they be not called.

T. C. P ag. 113. Sect. 1. 2. 3.

He hath certayne other (*) 1.5 to proue that women may baptize, whereof the first is in the. 93. page, and that is that Sephora Moses wife, circumcised hir child, wherevnto I haue answered partly before, that particular examples especially contrary, to generall rules, are not to be followed, and will further answer if I first admonish the Reader, wherevpon this baptisme of midwiues, and in priuate houses rose, that when we know of how rotten a stocke it came, the frute it selfe may be more lothsome vnto vs. It first therefore rose vpō a false interpretation of the place of S. Iohn. V nlesse a man be borne againe of vvater and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdome of hea∣uen.* 1.6 Where certayne do interprete the word water, for the materiall and elementall water, where∣with men are washed, when as our sauioure Christ taketh water there, by a translation or borro∣wed speach, for the spirit of God, the effect whereof it shadoweth out. For euen as in another place by the fire and spirit, he meaneth nothing but the spirit of God, which purgeth and purifyeth as the* 1.7 fire doth: so in this place, by the water and the spirit, he meaneth nothing else but the spirit of God, which clenseth the filth of sinne, and cooleth the broyling heate of an vnquiet conscience, as water washeth the thing which is foule, and quencheth the heate of the fire. Secondarily, this erroure came by a false and vnnecessary conclusion drawen of that place. For although the scripture should say, that none can be saued, but those which haue the spirit of God, and are baptised with materiall and elementall water, yet ought it to be vnderstanded of those whiche can conueniently and order∣ly be brought to baptisme, as the Scripture saying, that who so doth not beleeue the gospell, is* 1.8 already condemned, meaneth this sentence of those which can heare the gospell, and haue discreti∣on to vnderstand it, when they heare it, and cannot here shut vnder this condemnation, eyther those that be borne deafe, and so remayne, or little infants, or naturall fooles that haue no witte to con∣ceiue what is preached.

And herevpon S. Augustine concludeth, that all not baptized are condemned, which is as ab∣surdly* 1.9 concluded of him, as that of our sauioure Christes words: excepte one eate the flesh of the sonne of man, he hath not life, he concludeth, that whatsoeuer he be whiche receyueth not the Sa∣crament of the Supper, is damned.

Upon this false conclusion of S. Augustine, hath risen this prophanation of the sacramente of baptisme, in being ministred in priuate houses, and by women or lay men, as also vpon his other absurd conclusion, sprong a horrible abuse of the Lords supper, whilest they did thrust the bread and wine, into yong infantes mouthes, for that menne were perswaded, that otherwise if their children should die, before they were baptised, or had receyued the supper, that they were damned for euer. And what better token can there be, that this was the cause of this blind baptisme, than that the Papistes, from whome this baptisme by women is translated, were of the same iudge∣ment, and for that cause brought in their baptisme by women. Herevnto may be added another cause, which is, that as (when the Churche began not only to decline, but to fall away from the sinceritie of religion) it borrowed a number of other prophanations of the heathen: so also it borro∣wed this. For as the heathen had women priests, so it would haue also hir women priests, and* 1.10 that this was another occasion of bringing in the baptisme by women, it appeareth by your Cle∣ment, if he can speake any truth.

Io. Whitgifte.

It is vntrue that I vse any reasons at all to proue, that women may baptise: onely I bring this and such like examples to improue this generall assertion of the Admo∣nition, that then sacraments were ministrred by ministers only, and not by midwiues or deacons. For Deacōs then did baptise, and Moses wife long before that time did circumcise. I know that particular examples make no general rules: but you are not ignorant that* 1.11 particular examples may in the like cases and circumstances be followed, when ther is no rule to the contrary.

The place in the. 3. of Iohn by you alleadged hath diuers interpretations, and the most part of the auncient writers, do take water in that place, for materiall and ele∣mentall water: as Augustine, Chrisostome, Ambrose, Cyrill, and sundry others, euen as* 1.12 many of the auncient fathers, as I haue red vpon that text. But bycause I do mis∣like as much as you the opinion of those that thinke infants to be condemned, which are not baptized, therefore I will not contend with you, eyther in the interpretation of that place, or in anye other thing that you haue spoken touching this er∣roure: onely this I saye, that you must take héede, least in auoiding an errour, you fall into an heresie, and giue place to Anabaptistes, in not baptising in∣fants. And I knowe not what you can saye agaynste priuate baptisme, in that case of necessitie, whyche they doe not in lyke manner alleadge a∣gaynste the baptising of yong Infantes. Master Caluine in his Introduction

Aduersus Anabap. though he allowe not this errour, which condemneth chyldren not baptized, yet doth he approue and allowe the necessitie of baptizing infantes: His woordes be these. But some man will say, that the grace of God towardes vs, is not dimi∣nished* 1.13 if infantes be not admitted to Baptisme, so that it be not denied, that God is as mer∣cifull vnto them as vnto the children of the Iewes, but I will shewe that it is much dimi∣nished: for we muste esteeme the grace of God, especially by the declaration thereof which he maketh both by his worde and Sacramentes. Seyng therefore Baptisme is nowe ordey∣ned, that the promise of saluation may be sealed in our bodies, as it was in tymes past in the people of the Iewes: Christians should be depriued of a singular consolation, if theyr chil∣dren shoulde be secluded from this confirmation, which all the faythfull haue at all tymes enioyed, that they should haue the visible signe, whereby the Lorde doth shewe and witnesse that he receyueth their children into the Communion and fellowship of the Churche.

If the Authours of the Admonition say truly, that Victor who liued Anno. 198. did firste appoynt that women might Baptise, then came it neyther from the Papistes, nor yet from the Gentils. But whensoeuer this began, or from whom soeuer it was taken, the baptizing of infantes hath alwayes bene thought necessarie in the Church, by all such, as haue not deuided themselues by any Schisme or Heresie from the same.

Chap. 5. the. 3. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. 4.

Now I returne to the example of Sephora, and say that the vnlawfulnesse of that facte doth appeare sufficiently, in that she did it, (*) 1.14 before hir husbande Moses, which was a Prophete of the Lorde, and (a) 1.15 to whome that office of circumcision did appertayne: so that vnlesse M. Do∣ctor would haue midwiues baptise in the presence of the Bishop, or the minister, there is no cause why he shoulde alleage this place, besides that she did cut of the fore skinne of the Infante not of minde to obey the commaundement of God, or for the saluation of the chylde, but in a choler one∣ly, to the ende that hir husbande might be eased, and haue release: which minde appeareth in hir, both by hir woordes, and by casting away in anger, the foreskinne which she had cut of. And if it be sayde, that the euent declared that the acte pleased God, bycause that Moses forthwith waxed better and was recouered of his sickenesse, I haue shewed before, how if we measure things by the euent, we shall oftentymes iustifie the wicked, and take the rightuousnesse of the rightuous from them.

Io. Whitgifte.

In the. 170. Page of your booke, you say that God toke the Priesthode from Moses,* 1.16 and gaue it to Aaron, and nowe you séeme to affirme the contrarie in saying, that Mo∣ses was a Prophete of the Lorde, to whome that office of circumcision did apperteyne, for here∣by you do insinuate that Moses was a Prieste. Moreouer, Moses at this tyme was extréemely sicke, and therefore could not execute that office himselfe? And in the Ge∣neua Bible, there is this note: that it was extraordinarie, for Moses was sore sicke, and God euen then required it. Sephora therefore did circumcise in a poynt of extremitie* 1.17 and not wilfully or of purpose: & that circumcision was a true circumcision, though it were not done ordinarily: euen so Baptisme is true Baptisme, though it be some∣times ministred by such, as be not ordinarie ministers.

The euent doth oftentimes declare the thing, Exitus acta probat, though not ne∣cessarily: but this is certayne that these euentes are better reasons to iustifie the fact, than you can she we any out of that place to the contrarie.

Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. vlt. & Pag. 114. Sect. 1.

An other reason he hath which is, that the dignitie of the sacramentes doth not depende vpon the man, whether he be minister or no minister, good or euill.

In deede vpon this poynt whether he be good or an euill minister, it dependeth not, but on this

poynt whether he be a minister or no, dependeth not onely the dignitie, but also (a) 1.18 the beyng of the Sacrament, so that I take the baptisme of women, to be nomore the holy Sacrament of bap∣tisme, than I take any other dayly or ordinarie washing of the childe, neyther let any man thinke that I haue at vnwares slipped into this asseueration, or that I haue forgotten, that soone after the tymes of the Apostles, it was the vse of certayne Churches, that Deacons shoulde baptize in the tyme of necessitie (as they call it) for as for the Baptisme of Deacons, I holde it to be lawfull, for bycause although (as it is with vs) they giue him the name of Deacon, (*) 1.19 yet in deede he is as he then was in the elder tymes a minister, and not a Deacon. And although he did then pro∣vide for the poore, and so had two functions (which was not meete) yet his office ought to be estee∣med, of the principall parte of his function, which was preachyng and ministring of the Sacra∣mentes, in certayne cases. And as for the baptising by laye men, considering that it is not onely a∣gaynst the woorde of God, but also founded vpon a false grounde, and vpon an imagined necessitie (which is none in deede) it moueth me nothing at all, although it be very auncient, for so muche as the substance of the Sacrament dependeth chiefly of the institution and woorde of God, whiche is the forme, and as it were the lyfe of the sacrament, of which institution this is one, and of the chiefe partes, that it should be celebrated by a minister.

Io. Whitgifte.

If this be true and sounde doctrine, then is there many that go vnder the name* 1.20 of Christians, whiche were neuer baptized: for besides diuerse that haue bene bap∣tized by women, some there are, and not a fewe, that haue bene baptized by suche as haue taken vpon them the ministerie, not beyng therevnto eyther ordinarily, or ex∣traordinarily called: and it may so be that T. C. hath hereby proued himselfe to be no Christian.

And surely if you peruse all the writinges of the auncient Fathers, and of the* 1.21 late wryters in lyke manner. I beléeue that you shall not finde the lyke proposi∣tion affirmed, for although diuers, bothe olde and newe, do not allowe that Lay men shoulde be suffred to baptise, yet is there none of them (suche onely excepted, as erre in rebaptisation) that thinke the beyng of the sacrament so to depende vpon the minister, that* 1.22 it is no sacrament if it be not celebrated by a minister. Tertull. in his booke De Baptismo sayth, That laye men may Baptise. Ambrose in the. 4. ad Ephes. sayeth, that in the beginning it was lawfull for all menne to Baptise. Ierome, ad Luciferianos affirmeth, that it is law∣full for Laye men to Baptise if necessitie do requyre. And herevnto also dothe S. Au∣gustine agrée, in his 2. Booke, agaynst the Epistle of Parmenian, the. 13. Chapter. M. Zuinglius in the place before by me alleaged: VVriteth that the seconde errour in the circumstances of Baptisme is aboute the person, bycause they thinke that Baptisme can not be gyuen of any but of a Prieste onely, whereas if necessitie do requyre any man may do it. And a little after he sayeth, That this and such lyke circumstances are not De ipsa Baptismi essentia, Not of the beyng of the Sacrament. Whiche is directly contra∣ry to your assertion. M. Caluine also in his Institutions Cap. 17. Sect. 16. doth suffici∣ently* 1.23 confute this errour in these woordes: Nowe if it be true that we haue set downe, the Sacrament is not to be esteemed of his hande, by whome it is ministred, but as it were of the hande of God, from whome it certaynely commeth: hereof we may gather, that nothing is added or taken from the dignitie of it, by him by whome it is ministred. And therefore among men if an Epistle be sent, so that the hande and seale be knowne, it skil∣leth not who or what manner of person caryeth it: euen so it is sufficient for vs, to knowe the hande and seale of the Lorde in his Sacramentes, by whomesoeuer they be deliuered. Hereby is the errour of the Donatistes confuted, who measured the vertue and woorthy∣nesse of the Sacrament by the worthynesse of the minister. Such be now a dayes our Ana∣baptistes, which denie vs to be rightly baptized, bycause we were baptized by wicked and idolatrous persons in the Popos Churche. And therefore they furiously vrge rebaptisation: agaynst whose folly we shall sufficiently be defended, if we thinke that we were baptised not in the name of any man, but in the name of the Father, of the Sonne, and of the holy Ghost, and therefore baptisme not to be of man but of God, by vvhome soeuer it be ministred. Haec Caluinus.

Undoubtedly if this your assertion were true there had néede be some generall

rebaptisation throughout all Christendome, as well of men as of children, for cer∣tayne it is, that that Sacrament hath bene ministred to many by such, as be in no de∣gree of the ministerie.

Your opinion of a Deacon, that he should nothing differ from a minister, is very straunge, and vnheard of in any writer olde or newe. Shew any authour, any exam∣ple, any Scripture, that proueth or alloweth it: Diaconus and Presbyter or Sacerdos be di∣stinct in all Authours. But I know wherefore this is affirmed of you, euen to stoppe a gappe, but it will not serue. I will say no more: the opinion is very absurde and vnlearned, contrarie to the Scriptures, and all learned Authours. Neyther do you shew any reason of your Paradoxe, which you ought to do, seing it is Contra opinionem omnium, contrarie to all mens opinions, not one excepted.

Agaynst baptising by laye men in tyme of necessitie you haue no Scripture. But* 1.24 for the allowing of it, you haue the authoritie of learned men, euen such as were farre from the opinion of Augustine in condemning infantes not baptized, as namely Zuinglius, who also in the place before recited, sufficiently answered, whatsoeuer is here by you barely without any kinde of proofe set downe.

You haue also examples thereof in Ecclesiasticall histories, Socrates Lib. 1. cap.* 1.25 14. and Sozom. lib. 2. cap. 17. wryte: That Alexander Bishop of Alexandria togither with the rest of the Clergie determined that baptisme which was ministred by Athanasius beyng* 1.26 but a childe, to certayne other children, to be true baptisme, and not to be itterated, bicause* 1.27 after examination he was founde to haue vsed the woordes, and right forme of baptisme.* 1.28 Whereby it is playne, that the opinion of the Church at that tyme was, the minister not to be of the substance or being of baptisme. There is recited a storie in the Centu∣ries,* 1.29 of a Iewe baptized in the case of necessitie by Laye men, and with sande, bicause there was no water. Afterwarde the Bishop of Alexandria beyng demaunded of the matter, De sententia Ecclesiae respondit, baptizatum esse Iudaeum si modò aqua denuò perfundere∣tur, He answered by the iudgement of the Churche, that the Iewe was baptized, if so be he were agayne sprinkled with water. This argueth that the Church then made no doubt in the respect of the persons that ministred this Baptisme, but onely bycause there lacked water. This storie is cited out of Nicephorus lib. 3. cap. 37. and alleaged by the Authours of the Centuries, to proue the simplicitie of the Churche at that tyme, a∣boute Baptisme, neyther do they in any respect shewe any misliking of it. And sure∣ly I know not wherein this opinion of yours doth differ from the Donatistes, or A∣nabaptistes, except it be in this, that you speake of Laye men, and they of Mini∣sters.

And whereas you say, that the minister is one of the chiefe partes, and as it were of the* 1.30 lyfe of the Sacrament: In so weightie a cause, and greate a matter, it had bene well if you had vsed some authoritie of Scripture or testimonie of learned Authour: for so farre as I can reade, the opinion of all learned men is, that the essentiall forme, and as it were the lyfe of Baptisme, is to Baptise in the name of the Father, of the Sonne,* 1.31 and of the holy Ghoste, which forme beyng obserued, the Sacrament remayneth in full force and strength of whom soeuer it be ministred, or howsoeuer by Ceremonies or other additiōs it is corrupted. This I am sure is the answere of Zuinglius, both in his booke De Baptismo, and in his Elench. contra Anabap. to the Anabaptists, who would haue them all to be rebaptised that haue bene baptised in the Popes Churche. And the same is the opinion of M. Caluine in the place before recited, and of all other learned men that I haue redde.

And certaynely if the boyng of the Sacrament depended vpon man in any respect,* 1.32 we were but in a miserable case, for we should be alwayes in doubte whether wée were rightly baptized or no: but it is most true, that the force & strength of the Sacra∣ment, is not in the man be he minister or not minister, be he good or euill, but in God himself, in his spirite, in his frée & effectuall operation. And therefore sayeth S. Paule, VVhat is Paule, what is Apollo, &c. This I speake not to bring cōfusiō into the Church (for as I sayde before, let men take héede that they vsurpe not an office, wherevnto they be not called, for God will call them to an account for so doyng) but to teache

a truth, to take a yoke of doubtfulnesse from mens consciences, and to resist an error, not much differing from Donatisme and Anabaptisme.

Chap. 5. the. 5. Diuision.

T. C. Pag 114. Sect. 1.

For although part of the institution, in that the name of the holy Trinitie is called vpon, be obserued: yet if the whole institution be not, it is no more a Sacrament, than the Papists commu∣nion was, which celebrating it in one kinde, toke a parte of the institution, and lefte the other.

Io. Whitgifte.

If you can shew as manifest Scripture that the minister is of the substance of Baptisme, as I can do that the cuppe is one of the essentiall partes of the supper, then it is something that you say: but if there be no likelyhode betwixt the one and the o∣ther, than can you not want iuste reprehension, for so confidently auouching that which you cannot proue.

The distribution of the cuppe in the Lordes supper, is commaunded in manifest and expresse woordes as a parte of the Supper, but you cannot shew me the like com∣maundement that only a minister shall celebrate Baptisme, or els that it is no Bap∣tisme. We know that circumcision, the figure of Baptisme, was ministred some∣times by such as were no Priests: and yet right and true circumcision.

Chap. 5. the. 6. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 1.

And for as much as S. Paule sayth that a man cannot preach which is not sent, (*) 1.33 no not* 1.34 although he speake the wordes of the scripture and interprete them, so I cannot see how a man can baptise, vnlesse that he be sent to that end, although he poure water and rehearse the wordes which are to be rehearsed in the ministrie of baptisme.

Io. Whitgifte.

S. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 in that 10. chapt. to the Rom. speaketh of the extraordinarie calling to the office of preaching, so sayeth M. Martyr in his Commentaries, vpon this place.* 1.35 And although Paule intreateth in this place of calling, and sending, and this is as I sayde ordinarie and extraordinarie: there is no doubt but that he nowe speaketh of the extraor∣dinarie calling, &c. And M. Caluine lykewise vpon the same place sayeth, that Paule* 1.36 doth not there speake, De legitima cuius que vocatione, of the lawfull calling of euery man. Wherefore if you will grounde any such reason vpon this place, it muste be thus: S. Paule sayth that a man cannot preach which is not sent, and he meaneth of an ex∣traordinarie sending, therefore no man may preach vnlesse he be extraordinarily cal∣led therevnto: and so consequently not minister baptisme, except he be called in like manner. If you will reason thus, then do you cōfirme the baptizing by laye men, who do it not ordinarily but extraordinarily vpon necessitie.

S. Paule doth not say, that a man cannot preach which is not sente, no not although he* 1.37 speaketh the wordes of the scripture, and interprete them. These wordes be so added by you, that the simple and ignorant, may thinke they be the woordes of S. Paule. He that speaketh the wordes of the scripture, and doth interprete them, preacheth, though he be not there vnto called, and it is the true woorde of God he preacheth, if he truly interprete, but he intrudeth himselfe into a vocation where vnto he is not called, and therefore* 1.38 offendeth God: but that doth derogate nothing from the woorde preached. The same reason is of the administration of the Sacramentes, for as the woorde of God, is the woorde of God, by whom so euer it be preached minister or other: so is the Sacra∣ment of Baptisme, true baptisme by whom soeuer it be celebrated: the vsurper of the office hath to answere for his intrusion, but the Sacrament is not thereby defiled.

It is no harde matter to shew that in the primitiue Church, laye men were suf∣f〈1 line〉〈1 line〉d* 1.39 to preach: you know that Euseb. sayeth that Origene being a lay man was sent into Arabia to preach the Gospell which he also did, both before & after in the Church of Alexandria, and likewise in Cesarea. And although Demetrius then Bishop of A∣lexandria, founde faulte that Origene beyng a laye man shoulde preache in the pre∣sence of Bishops at Cesarea. Yet is it manifest that he allowed laye men to preach, if Bishops were not present. And in the same chapt. by diuers examples it is shewed (as of Euelpis at Laranda, of Paulinus at Iconium, of Theodorus at Synada) that the custome of the Churches both then and before that time was, that laye men might preach euen in the presence of Bishops, so that you haue erred both in applying the place of S. Paule, and in saying that laye men may not preache the woorde vpon oc∣casion, and so consequently Baptise.

Chap. 5. the. 7. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 1.

I know there be diuers (*) 1.40 difficulties in this question, and therefore I was soth to enter into it, but that the Answerer setteth downe so considently, that it maketh no matter for the truthe of baptisme whether he be minister or no minister, and so whether one haue a calling or no calling, wherein notwithstanding he doth not onely by his often handling of one thing confounde his rea∣der, but himselfe also, and forgetteth that he is in an other question, than which is propounded. For although it should be graūced him, that the sacrament doth not depende vpon that, yet hath he not that (a) 1.41 which he would haue, that women may baptise for it is one thing to say the baptisme which is ministred by women is good and effectuall, and an other thing to say, that it is lawfull for wo∣men to minister baptisme. For there is no man doubteth but that the baptisme which is ministred by an hereticall minister is effectuall, and yet I thinke that M. Doctor will not say, that therefore an hereticall minister may baptise, and that it is lawfull for Herctikes to baptise in the Churche. And therfore men must not only take hede (as M. Doctor sayth) that they vsurpe not, that which they are not called vnto, but they must also take heede, that they receyue not functions and charges vpon them, whereof they are not capable, although they be therevnto called.

Io. Whitgifte.

There are mo difficulties in this question than you can wel determine: and ther∣fore it had bene beste, eyther not to haue spoken of it at all, or els to haue handled it more substantially: but the scarcitie of matter and reasons, argueth the weakenesse and fayntnesse of the cause. I passe ouer your woordes: I go not aboute to proue that women may baptise, onely I withstande this errour, that the Substance and beyng of the Sacramentes dependeth vpon the man in any respect. I say that baptisme ministred* 1.42 by women is true Baptisme, though it be not lawfull for women to baptise, as the baptisme also ministred by heretiks is true baptisme, though they be vsurpers of that office. And the same, S. Augustine affirmeth of baptisme by laye men in the place* 1.43 before alleaged: Although (sayeth he) it be vsurped without necessitie, and is giuen of a∣ny man to any man, that which is giuen cannot be sayde not to be giuen, although it may be rightly sayde not to be rightly giuen. And I further say, that if the baptisime, ministred by hereticall ministers, which be no members of the Churche, be notwithstanding good and effectuall, I sée no cause why it should not be so rather, if it be ministred by laye men, which are members and partes of the Churche.

Chap. 5. the. 8. Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 153. Sect. 2.

M. Bucer in his censure vpon the Communion booke, speaking of* 1.44 the order appointed in the same for priuate Baptisme, writeth thus. In this constitution all things are godly appoynted, I vvoulde to God they* 1.45 vvere so obserued, and especially this that the baptisme of infants be not dif∣ferred,

for therby is a dore opened vnto the Deuill, to bring in a contempt of baptisme, and so of our whole redemption, and cōmunion of Christ which thorough the sect of Anabaptistes, hath to much preuayled vvith many.

T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 2.

In the 153. page, M. Bucers censure vpon the cōmunion booke is cited, for the allowaunce of that it hath touching priuate baptisme, and consequently of the baptisme by women. It may be, that as M. Bucer although otherwise very learned hath (*) 1.46 other grosse absurdities, so he may haue that. But it had bene for the credite of your cause, if you had shewed that out of those wri∣tings, which are published & knowne to be his, & not out of those, wherof men may doubt, whether euer he wrote any such or no: And if he wrote, whether they be corrupted by those into whose hands they came. And if you would take any aduauntage of M. Bucers testimonie, considering that a witnesse is a publike person, you should haue brought him out of your studie into the statio∣ners shop, where he mought haue bene common to others, as well as to you, whereby his stile and manner of writing as it were by his gestures, and countenaunces, and by those things that go be∣fore, and come after, as it were by his head, and by his fecte, we might the better know whether it were the true Bucer or no.

Io. Whitgifte.

It is very grosse courtesie that you shewe to so worthie and learned a man: mo∣destie* 1.47 and charitie would not haue bene so rashe as to answere that whiche he well speaketh, in opprobriously obiecting vnto him his other errours, which you call grosse absurdities. But this is the reuerence that you giue to all learning, and learned men, that are contrary to your opinions. I haue sometimes heard a Papiste burst out in∣to this rage, against M. Bucer beyng pressed with his authoritie: But you are the first professour of the Gospell, that euer I hearde so churlishly to vse so reuerent, so learned, so paynefull, so sounde a father, being also an earnest and zelous professour. It causeth me the lesse to regarde what you speake of me, when I heare such bitter∣nesse agaynst all other, be they neuer so zealous and excellent. Well Bucers reasons (which touch the quicke) would haue bene reasonablie answered without spyte: and you should rather haue considered them, than the authour. There is nothing in these woordes by him affirmed, which is not in as playne termes auouched by Zuinglius, in the woordes before recited. The booke of M. Bucers is forth cōming to be shewed, and he affirmeth nothing therein contrary to his bookes published: he had more spe∣ciall occasion here offred to speake both of this and other matters now in controuer∣sie, and therefore the more he is to be credited.

Chap. 5. the. 9. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 2.

For although I wil not say but that this may be Bucers doing, yet it seemeth very straunge, that Bucer should not onely contrarie to the learned writers nowe, but also contrary to all learned antiquitie, and contrarie to the practise of the Churche, whilest there was any tollerable estate, allowe of womens baptizing. (a) 1.48 Tertullian sayeth it is not permitted to a woman to speake in the Churche, nor to teache or to baptize, nor to do any worke of a man, much lesse of a minister. (b) 1.49 And in an other place, although he do permit it to be done by Laye men, in the time of necessi∣tie (as it is termed) yet he giueth not that licence to the woman. (c) 1.50 Epiphanius vpbraydeth Marcion that he suffred women to baptise. And (d) 1.51 in an other booke he derideth them that they made women Bishops. And (e) 1.52 in an other booke he sayeth, it was not graunted vnto the holy mother of Christe to baptise hir Sonne.

Io. Whitgifte.

M. Bucer speaketh not one woorde in this place of baptising by women: but of priuate Baptisme, which neyther Tertullian, nor Epiphanius in these places by you alleaged do disallow.

Chap. 5. the. 10. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 115. Lin. 6.* 1.53

Augustine although he were of that minde, that children could not be saued without baptisme,* 1.54 yet in the time of necessitie (as it is called) he doth not allow eyther of baptisme in priuate houses, or by women, but when there was daunger the women hasted to carie the children vnto the Church, and although he do seeme to allowe of the baptisme of a Lay man, in the time of necessitie, yet there also he mentioneth not womens baptisme. And further he doubteth whether the childe shoulde be baptised againe, which was baptised by a laye man.

Io. Whitgifte.

Where doth S. Augustine disallow baptising by women, or in priuate houses? he vttereth no suche thing in any of the places quoted in the margente. Will you still counterfeit? is there no ende with you of falsifying? In his seconde booke con∣tra Epistolam Parmeniani, Cap. 13. he dothe not onely say that a lay man may baptise in the tyme of necessitie, but he also addeth, that if it be ministred without necessitie, yet notwithstanding that it is baptisme: as appeareth in these words (as I haue before sayde) But althoughe it be vsurped (he meaneth baptisme by lay men) without neces∣sitie,* 1.55 and is giuen of any man to any man, that whiche is giuen can not be sayde not to be giuen, althoughe it maye be rightly sayde, that it is not lawfully giuen. And he dothe make the same manyfest by two prety similitudes following, whiche I omitte for to auoyde tediousnesse. The learned Reader maye in that place of Augustine soone perceyue, what an errour this is to saye, that the Minister is of the substance and beeing of the Sacrament: neyther dothe he in eyther of the places, eyther disallowe baptisme by women, or in priuate houses, as you affirme, but ad Fortunatum he saythe thus: In* 1.56 necessitie when the Bishops or Priests, or any other minister can not be founde, and the daunger of him that requireth dothe constrayne, least he shoulde departe this lyfe with∣out this sacrament, we haue heard, that euen lay men haue giuen the sacrament that they haue receyued.

Chap. 5. the. 11. Diuision.

T. C. Page. 115. Lin. 12.

And in the fourth Councell of Carthage it is simply decreed that a woman oughte not to* 1.57 baptise.

Io. Whitgifte.

This Canon in Gratian de conse. Disti. 4. is thus reported: Mulier quamuis docta & sancta, viros in comuentu docere, vel aliquos baptizare non praesumat, nisi necessitate cogent〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 Let not a woman, although learned and godly, presume to teache men in an assembly, or to baptise any, excepte necessitie constrayne. So that the Canon inhibiteth women to preache or to baptise in the open Churche and publike assemblies. And this is a sufficient answere to this place, neyther dother it impugne any thing affirmed in the Answere.

Chap. 5. the. 12. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 115. Lin. 13.

The authors of the Admonition obiect that necessitie of saluation is tyed to the Sacraments by this meanes, and that men are confirmed in that olde errour that no man can be saued without baptisme, whiche in deede is true. For muste it not be thought to be done of necessitie, and vpon great extremitie, for the doing whereof the orders that God hathe let, that it shoulde be done in the congregation, and by the Minister of the Gospell, are broken? Yes verily. And I wyll further say, that although that the Infants which dye without baptisme should be assuredly dam∣ned (whiche is moste false) yet oughte not the orders whiche God hathe set in hys Churche, to be broken after this sorte. For as the saluation of men oughte to be beare vnto vs: so the glo∣ry of God, whiche consisteth in that his orders be kepte, ought to be muche more deare, that if at any time the controuersie coulde be betweene his glory and our saluation, our saluation ought to fall that his glory may stande.

Io. Whitgifte.

Yet the auoyding of that errour is no sufficient cause to debarre Infantes from* 1.58 baptisme: excepte you will therein ioyne with the Anabaptistes. The outwarde sacramentall signes, are seales of Gods promises, and whosoeuer refuseth the same, shall neuer enioy the promises, and althoughe the necessitie of saluation is not so tyed to the Sacraments, that whosoeuer hathe the externall signes, shall therefore be sa∣ued, yet is it so tyed vnto them, that none can be saued, that willingly and wittingly

is voyde of them, & not partakers of them. Circumcistō which is a figure of baptisme,* 1.59 had that necessitie ioyned vnto it, that whosoeuer lacked it, was not counted nor rec∣kened* 1.60 amongst the people of God. It is not nothing that Chryst sayth: Qui credide∣rit & baptizatus fuerit &c. But your maner of doctrine is suche, that it maketh men* 1.61 thinke that the externall signes of the sacraments are but bare ceremonies, and in no sense necessarie to saluation, whiche muste in time bring in a contempte of the sa∣craments, and especially of baptisme for Infants.

M. Zuinglius, Bucer, and Caluine as you heard before, although they doe not thinke children without baptisme to be damned, yet doe they iudge the baptisme of children to be necessarie, and that for iust causes, as is before declared. And what Christian would willingly suffer his childe to dye without the sacrament of regeneration, the lacke whereof (though it be not a necessarie) yet may it séeme to be a probable token and signe of reprobation.

What eyther order of God, or commaundement is broken in priuate baptisme? or where hath God appoynted that baptisme muste be ministred in the open congregation onely, and not vpon any cause in priuate families? Will you yet deale on this sorte without ground or proofe? In priuate baptisme vsed vpon necessitie there is neyther order nor commaundement of God broken. If there be, shewe it.

Chap. 5. the. 13. Diuision.

The Admonition.

And yet this is not to tye necessitie of saluation to the sacraments, nor to nousell men vp in that opinion. This is agreable with the scriptures, and therefore when they bring the baptised chylde they are receyued with this speciall commendation: I certifie you that you haue done well and according to due order. &c.

But nowe we speake in good earnest, when they answere this, let them tell vs howe this geare agreeth wyth the scriptures, and whether it be not repugnant or agaynst the worde of God?

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 187. Sect. 1.

And yet (you say) thys is not to tye necessitie of saluation to the sacramentes, nor to nousell men vp in that opinion. &c. No surely, no more than it is to teach, that children ought to be baptized, and not to tarry vntill suche time as they be able to answere for themselues.

T. C. Pag. 115. Sect. 1.

Now in the. 187. page, M. Doctor answereth heerevnto, that this implyeth no more, that the saluation is tyed to the sacraments, than when it is taught that Infants must be baptised, and not tarry vntyll they come to the age of discretion. The which how truely it is spoken, when as the one hath grounde of the scripture, the other hath none, the one approued by the continuall, and almost the generall practise of the Church, the other vsed onely in the corrupt and rotten estate thereof, let all men iudge.

Io. Whitgifte.

This verifieth my saying, for if baptisme of children be grounded vpon the scrip∣tures, as it is, then is the necessitie of baptising them, the more: so that if not for feare of damnation, yet bicause of Gods commaundement and institution, children are of necessitie to be baptized: and this is a receyued opinion in the Church, euen from the beginning, & therfore lay men in the time of necessitie, from the beginning haue béene permitted to baptise, as may appeare by the authors before alleaged.

Chap. 5. the. 14. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 115. Sect. 1.

Therefore for so muche as the ministerie of the worde and Sacramentes goe togither, and that the ministerie of the worde may not be committed vnto women, and for that thys euill cu∣stome

hathe risen first of a false vnderstanding of the Scripture, and then of a false conclusion of that vntrue vnderstanding, which is, that they can not be saued whiche are not baptized, and for that the authors them selues of that errour dyd neuer seeke no remedie of the mischiefe in wo∣mens or priuate baptisme: And last of all, for that if there were any remedie, agaynst the mischiefe in suche kinde of baptisme, yet it ought not to be vsed, beeing agaynst the institution of God, and his glory. I conclude that the priuate baptisme, and by women is vtterly vnlawfull.

Io. Whitgifte.

These be all petitions of principles, or the moste of them: for I haue shewed be∣fore, that the administration of baptisme hath beene and may be committed to some, euen in the publike congregation, to whom the preaching of the word is not cōmit∣ted: and nowe in lyke maner I haue proued, that laye men in the time of necessitie maye baptise: whiche bothe are denyed by you without any kinde of proofe. I haue also showed, howe that the necessitie of baptising Infants is vehemently defended of those, that be not of S. Augustines iudgement touching their damnation, if they he not baptized, and I haue set downe their wordes, whiche conteyne their reasons. Last of all, I haue put you to proue that Priuate baptisme in time of necessitie is a∣gaynst any comma〈1 line〉〈1 line〉dement or institution of Christs: for I denie it. So that not∣withstanding I suspende my iudgement for baptizing by women: yet I am oute o〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 doubt for priuate baptisme.

Notes

• (vv) 1.1

  Mat. 28. 19 1. Cor. 4. 1
• * 1.2

  Whether any may minister the sacramen∣tes besides the minister.
• * 1.3

  What myst••∣ries be.
• * 1.4

  Philip deacon baptised. Moyses wife 〈◊〉〈◊〉 circumcise
• (*) 1.5

  Vntruth, for I vse no reasons to that end.
• * 1.6

  3. Iohn.
• * 1.7

  3. Math.
• * 1.8

  Iohn. 3.
• * 1.9

  106. Epist. ad Bonifac. in lib. de meritis & remissi. pec〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 cat. 1. ca. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉4
• * 1.10

  Li. 3. ca. 9.
• * 1.11

  Particular examples may sometimes be followed.
• * 1.12

  Chr. in. 3. Io. 3. lib. de spi∣rit. sanct. lib. 2. de Abra∣bam patriar. Cyri. in. 3. Io.
• * 1.13

  Caluine 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉∣uers 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• (*) 1.14

  Mose〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 by re∣son of sicknesse was not able to do it himselfe.
• (a) 1.15

  This is con∣trary to that he hath, Pag. 17〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. Sect. 1.
• * 1.16

  Pag. 170. Sect. 1.
• * 1.17

  Baptisme true though not ordinarily ministred.
• (a) 1.18

  A straunge as sertiō auouched without proofe.
• (*) 1.19

  Vrge hoc &c.
• * 1.20

  The inconue∣nience of the Repliers doc∣trine.
• * 1.21

  The assertion hath no suffi∣ciēt patrones.
• * 1.22

  Baptisme by lay men. Tertull. Ambrose. Hierome. Augustine. Zuinglius.
• * 1.23

  Caluine.
• * 1.24

  Baptisme by Lay men not condemned us Scripture.
• * 1.25

  Examples of baptisme by lay men.
• * 1.26

  Socrates.
• * 1.27

  Sozomen.
• * 1.28

  〈1 line〉〈1 line〉hanasius beyng a childe baptised.
• * 1.29

  Cent. 2. cap. 6.
• * 1.30

  The Replier in so weightie a matter vseth no proofes.
• * 1.31

  The essential poynt of bap∣tisme.
• * 1.32

  The force of baptisme 〈◊〉〈◊〉 not vpon 〈◊〉〈◊〉 but vpon God. 1. Cor. 3. Confusion & disorder is not maynteyned.
• (*) 1.33

  This is added to the text.
• * 1.34

  Rom. 10.
• * 1.35

  Martyr.
• * 1.36

  Caluine.
• * 1.37

  The Replier addeth to the text, and for what pur∣pose.
• * 1.38

  Usurpers both in prea∣ching and mi∣nistring the Sacraments offend God.
• * 1.39

  Lay men su〈1 line〉〈1 line〉∣fred to preach. Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 20.
• (*) 1.40

  The more to blame you are without proo〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 to enter into such difficulties.
• (a) 1.41

  This is no〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 intended.
• * 1.42

  Baptisme true baptisme though vu∣lawfully mi∣nistred.
• * 1.43

  August. lib. 2. contr. Epist. Parmea. ca. 13.
• * 1.44

  Bucer.
• * 1.45

  Differring of baptisme not expedient.
• (*) 1.46

  This is but grosse courtesie.
• * 1.47

  The reuerēce which T. C. giueth to lear∣ned men.
• (a) 1.48

  De vir∣gin. velan.
• (b) 1.49

  Lib. de Baptis.
• (c) 1.50

  Epiph. li. 1. contra haeres.
• (d) 1.51

  Lib. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. Vbi de Phry gib. & Pri∣scil.
• (e) 1.52

  Lib. 3.
• * 1.53

  1. Li. de me∣rit. & re∣mis. peccat. 24. cap. Contra E〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 pist. Par∣men. lib. 2. 13. cap.
• * 1.54

  An vntruth.
• * 1.55

  Aug. lib. 2. contra Epist. Parm. cap. 13.
• * 1.56

  Aug. ad For∣tunatum.
• * 1.57

  Tom. 1. cō. ca. 100.
• * 1.58

  There is ne∣cessitie of bap tisme, though the necessitie of saluation be not tyed to the sacramen∣tes.
• * 1.59

  Genes. 17.
• * 1.60

  Mark. 16.
• * 1.61

  The doctrine tendeth to the de〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ogation of the sacramēts.