The defense of the aunsvvere to the Admonition against the replie of T.C. By Iohn VVhitgift Doctor of Diuinitie. In the beginning are added these. 4. tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the replie. 2 Of falsifications and vntruthes. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table generall.

T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 2.

Another fault is that all the people are appoynted in diuerse places, to say after the Minister, whereby not onely the tyme is vnprofitably wasted, and a confused voyce of the people, one spea∣king after another caused, but an opinion bred in their heades, that those onely be theyr prayers which they say and pronounce with their owne mouthes. Which causeth them to giue the lesse heede to the rest of the prayers which they rehearse not after the Minister, which notwithstanding are as well their prayers, as those which they pronounce after the Minister, otherwise than the or∣der which is left vnto the Church, of God doth beare. For God hath ordeyned the Minister to this ende, that as in publike meetings, he onely is the mouth of the Lorde from him to the people, euen so he ought to be(*) 1.1 onely the mouth of the people from them vnto the Lorde, and that all the people should attende to that which is sayde by the Minister, and in the ende both declare their consent to that which is sayde, and their hope that it shall so be and come to passe whiche is prayed, by the worde Amen. As S. Paule declareth in the Epistle to the Corinthians. And Iustine Martyr* 1.2 sheweth to haue bene the custome of the Churches in his time.

Io. Whitgifte.

God be thanked, that the booke is so per〈1 line〉〈1 line〉te, that you are constreyned for sauing your credite with your Disciples, thus triflingly to deale with it: you vnchristianly say, that the time is vnprofitably wasted, which is spent in prayer: you imagine that of the people, that neuer entered into their thoughts: you call it a confused voyce, that is a most acceptable sounde vnto the Lorde: and if to surmise or to imagine be sufficient, then may we imagine your doctrine to tende to the contempt of prayer, and the ouer∣thwarting of all good and godly order. But you must knowe that there is more speci∣all cause, why the people should rather reherse after the Minister those things that the booke appoynteth them so to do, than the other prayers, bicause they conteyne a gene∣rall confession of sinnes, which all Christians togither as well in voyce, as in heart, ought to confesse: neyther doth the booke prescribe the people to say any thing after the Minister (the Lordes prayer after the Communion onely excepted) but these ge∣nerall* 1.3 and publike confessions: and yet if it did, I sée not howe you can iustly therefore reproue it. Musculus expounding these wordes, Et cum bymnum cecinissent. &c. thinketh it not vnlikely ipsum ita praeloquutū esse, vt verba ipsius ab illis sint excepta & vicissim reddita. That Christ did in that order speake before his Disciples, that they repeated his wordes af∣ter him. Whereby it appeareth that he was so farre from thinking this order to bée on vnprofitable wasting of tyme, that he doubteth not to ascribe it to our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles. But if it be such an vnprofitable wasting of tyme, to rehearse prayer af∣ter the Minister, how happeneth it, that you and all other your partners that be prea∣chers, vse to cause the people to pray after you in your Sermons? Is it lawfull for you so to do in the Pulpite, and is it not lawfull for the Minister to do the same in the Churche? Belike nothing is well done that you do not your selues, or are not the Authours of.

But here I cannot omit that which you so boldly affirme, of the Minister, whom* 1.4 you say God hath ordeyned to be the onely mouth of the people from them vnto the Lorde in publike meetings: are you of that opinion, that the people may ioyne with the minister in pronouncing publike prayers, at no time? Or that they should onely attende to that

which is sayde by the Minister, and in the ende giue their consent by this woorde Amen? Hath God ordeyned this? I pray you where finde you this ordinance? Sure I am that the place by you alledged doth not proue it. For although it be true that the Mi∣nister is the mouth of the people to God, yet doth it not followe, that hee is the onely mouth of the people vnto the Lorde▪ And although we reade that the people vsed to giue their consent vnto the prayer pronounced of the Minister, by this worde Amen: yet if you will hereof conclude that they ought onely to say Amen: and at no time ioyne as well in voyce as in heart, with the Minister (which you séeme to affirme in saying he is the onely mouth) then besides the weaknesse of your conclusion, the prac∣tise of the Church of God will sufficiently confute you. Wée reade that when Pe∣ter and John were let go, after their examination before the Priestes and Elders, for healing the man that was lame from his mothers wombe, they came to the rest of his Disciples, and declared to them what had happened, and when they hearde that,* 1.5 they lift vp their voyces to God with one accorde, and sayde, Lorde thou art God, &c. So that the Minister here was not the onely mouth of the people, but the whole companie that was assembled ioyned togither in this prayer, lifted vp their voyces and spake with one accorde. And surely it is not vnlike, that they vsed herein that order which you before accounted an vnprofitable wasting of time: for séeing that this prayer was framed according to the present occasion, I am perswaded that the rest did rather re∣peate the wordes after him that conceyued the prayer, than that they all miraculously ioyned vpon the sodeyne in one and the same for me of wordes. Plinie in an Epistle to* 1.6 Traiane the Emperour concerning the Christians, wryteth that their custome was stato die ante lucem conuenire carmen{que} Christo quasi Deo dicere, secum inuicem, &c. to meete to∣gither early at an appoynted day, and to sing togither a song vnto Christ as vnto God. Chrysostome goyng about to proue that in some respect there is no difference betwixt the Priest and people, vseth this for an example, that in publike prayer they somtime ioyne togither. His wordes be these, Quin & precibus. &c. A man may also see the people* 1.7 to offer many prayers togither for those that are possessed & penetenciaries (as they term them) for common supplications are made both of the Priest, and of them, and they all say one prayer, &c. And again, quid miraris si cum sacerdote populus loquitur? vvhy dost thou maruell if the people speake togither vvith the priest, &c. You can not be ignorant (I am sure) that Basill likeneth the sounde of men, women, and chil∣dren praying in the Church, to the roring of the waues agaynste the Sea bankes. This* 1.8 might you haue séene also euen in that place of Iustine Martyr whiche you quote: for* 1.9 there describing the liturgie, he sayth, that after the exhortation or Sermon, Omnes surgimus & compre〈1 line〉〈1 line〉amur, we do all rise and pray togither, &c. This you skipped ouer, and tooke that which followed, bycause it made more for your purpose: for indéede Iustine doth describe both, that is both the prayer of the whole Church togither, and of the Bishop alone the people giuing their consent by this worde Amen. I néede not to vse mo testimonies, these may suffice to declare by the practise of the Church, that the Mi∣nister is not the only mouth of the people in publike meetings, which you haue only set downe without any proofe, for what purpose, you knowe best your selfe, surely I cannot con∣iecture, except it be that the people should wholy depende vpon the Ministers wordes, and as it were hang vpon his lippes, which where vnto it woulde in tyme grow, wise men can consider.

But what néede I to stande so long vppon this poynt, séeing you your selfe af∣terwarde* 1.10 affirme as muche▪ For finding fault with the order of singing Psalmes syde by syde, you haue these wordes. From whence soeuer it came, it cannot be good, con∣sydering that when it is graunted that all the people maye prayse God (as it is in singing of Psalmes) there this ought not to be restreyned vnto a fewe, and where it is lawfull both with heart and voyce, to sing the whole Psalme, there it is not meete that they shoulde sing but the one halfe with their heart and voyce, and the other with their heart onely. For where they may both with heart and voyce sing, there the heart is not ynough. Than the which, what can be more contrarie to this, that the Minister ought to be the onely mouth of the people to the Lorde? For here you affirme that all the people may prayse God, and sing Psalmes,

not with heart onely, but with voyce, and so to be their owne mouth vnto the Lorde. Howe you can reconcile this géere I sée not: sure I am that truth is not contrarie to it selfe.

Notes

• (*) 1.1

  Vntruth▪
• * 1.2

  1. Cor. 14. 1. Apol. pro Christianis.
• * 1.3

  Muscul. in 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Math.
• * 1.4

  The ministes not the onely mouth of the people.
• * 1.5

  Act. 4.
• * 1.6

  Plinius Epist. lib. 10.
• * 1.7

  Chrysost. hom. 18. in. 2. Cor.
• * 1.8

  Basil. Hexam.
• * 1.9

  4. Apol. 2.
• * 1.10

  The replyer contrarie to himselfe. Pag. 163, in the middest.