The defense of the aunsvvere to the Admonition against the replie of T.C. By Iohn VVhitgift Doctor of Diuinitie. In the beginning are added these. 4. tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the replie. 2 Of falsifications and vntruthes. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table generall.

Of Ministers that can not preache, and of giuing licences to preache. Tract. 6. (Book 6)

Some may be Ministers that can not preache.

Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision.

Admonition.

The tenth. Then the Ministers were (*) 1.1 Preachers: nowe bare readers.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 52. Sect. 2. 3.* 1.2 * 1.3

Your places of Scripture alleadged to proue that Ministers* 1.4 were then Preachers, proue not that all were then Preachers. The place in the seconde to the Philippians. 20. verse, is this: For I haue no man lyke mynded, vvho vvyll faythfully care for your mat∣ters. And in the. 25. verse: But I suppose it neeessarie to sende my bro∣ther Epaphroditus to you, my companion in laboure, and fellovv soul∣diour, euen your messanger, and he that ministred vnto me suche thinges as I vvanted. Collossians. 1. verse. 7. As ye also learned of Epaphras our deare fellovve seruant, vvhich is for you a faythful minister of Christ. Quorsum haec?

Howe proue these places that all Ministers then preached? That of Luke, chapter. 9. proueth aswell that they cured diseases, as that they preached, and therefore out of that place you mighte aswell conclude that all Ministers oughte to be curers of sicknes∣ses, aswell as preachers. This I wryte, onely to let you vnder∣stande your vanitie and ignoraunce in quoting so many Scriptures, to so small purpose.

Io. Whitgifte.

Ad haec ne verbum quidem: but onely to the place of the nynthe of Luke, and that out of place.

Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 52. Sect. vlt.

I wishe that euery minister were a preacher, but that beeing vn∣possible as the state is now, I see not how you can cōdemne reading* 1.5 ministers, seeing reading is necessarie in the Church, & fayth cōmeth aswel by reading the scriptures in the booke, as by rehearsing of thē without booke. In the. 31. of Deut. it is thus written: Leges verba legis huius coram omni Israel. &c. Thou shalt reade the vvords of this booke before all Israell. &c. S. Paule sayth in the. 15. to the Rom. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 scripta sunt. &c. VVhatsoeuer is vvritten. &c. But I neuer heard reading of the scrip∣tures,* 1.6 reading of prayers, reading of Homilies, taken out of the scripture condemned, but onely by the Authors of this booke, and by the zuinfildians.

T. C. Page. 50. Sect. vlt. & Pag. 51. Sect. 1.

If you should beget, and be a father of many bookes, and all your children like their eldest bro∣ther, you would (without better aduise) shake many groundes of our religion. For heere agayne you wishe that all pastors were able to teache, but that beeing vnpossible (as the state is nowe) you are content with Pastors or ministers, that can doe nothing but reade. You throughout your whole booke make this a maruellous good estate, and alwayes turne the best side outwarde, and when men goe about to vrge the deformities thereof, to the ende they mighte be remedied, then you lay open the shame and nakednesse of it, and make it greater, than it is in deede. For as I haue shewed before, the Church standeth not so muche in neede of your reading ministers, as you would make the worlde beleeue. And although it be a great deformitie, and sore plague of the Churche, whiche you here speake of, and confesse at vnwares, yet you will let no man come neare to heale it. There be some make a gayne by sores, and sore legges, and therefore they haue a medicine to keepe their woundes alwayes greene, that they should not heale.

I hope you do not of purpose keepe the Churche in this estate, but this I dare say, that the chiefe of your gayne, and of your honour, consisteth and is grounded in the ruines of the Churche, and therefore I desire you to tooke vnto it.

Io. Whitgifte.

I omit whatsoeuer you héere speake agaynst my person, for I am purposed to ab∣steine* 1.7 from requiting you in like sorte, onely I will answere for my selfe where you labour to slaunder me. The cause of lacke of a sufficient number of méete ministers in this Church, is neyther the religion professed, nor the gouernment that is vsed, nor yet the gouernours: But partly the crueltie of the times past, wherein numbers of méete ministers haue bin consumed: partly the vn willingnesse of mē in this present time, which haue not that zeale to enter into this calling, that is to be wished: and partly (nay chiefly & principally) you & your schismes, which haue caused some to cast off their ministerie wholly, some to forsake their pastorall charges, and yet to kéepe their Prebendes and other liuings: some to depraue the ministerie, condemne it, and by all meanes possible alienate as many from it, as they can. And therefore nothing that I confesse of the scarsitie of méete & able ministers, derogateth any thing eyther from the doctrine professed in this Church, or frō the kinde of gouernment, or the Ma∣gistrates: but rather cōmendeth the same, bicause notwithstanding al the former im∣pediments, yet hath it a number of excellent ministers, & doth continually bréed mo.

If any confession tende to the condemnation of any, it is of you & your adherents, who haue more hindred & slaundered the Gospel in this realme of England, than the Papists eyther haue done, or could possibly do. And I am fully persuaded, that one of the greatest deformities suffered in this Church, is lacke of discipline towardes you, who be so farre from healing any sore in the Church, that the more you be suffered, the greater doe you wounde it: And in very déede the reformation you pretende, is no∣thing but a méere confusion, or rather subuersion bothe of the Churche and common wealthe also.

My honour and gaine is but verie small, yet it is more, than I am worthie of, but I trust the tyme will come, when as such boyling affections vttered in so spitefull a maner, will be made manyfest: and I pray God it be not imputed vnto you in that day. If my houour and gayne be other than may stande with the good and prosperous estate of the churche, I am readie to yelde it vp whensoeuer I shall by due authoritie be required. In the meane tyme, God be iudge betwixt you and me.

Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision.

T. C. Page. 51. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.

But what if the estate of the Church be suche, as you speake of, that it will scarce yeeld three preaching Pastors and Bishops in some Diocesse, may you therfore make reading ministers? In deed if the Apostle had made this a councell only, and no commaundement, that Pastors of chur∣ches should be able to teache, then your saying might haue bene borne.

But seyng that S. Paule hath commaunded expressedly, that he should be able to teache, and* 1.8 to conuince the gaynsayers, I would learne of you gladly, what necessitie there is, whiche can* 1.9 cause a man to breake the morall law of God, to bring in a tradition of man. You may as wel break any other commaundement of God for necessities sake, as breake this, being comprehended in the fyrst table.

And tosay that these that can only reade, must be tolerated in the Church as ministers, is to say bycause you can haue no Pastors in the Churches, you will haue idolls, for so will I not doubt to call them, although through ignorance of that whiche they do, some may be good men. But yet in respect of the place that they occupie, they are idolls, for they stand for that, and make shew of that whiche they are not, and admit you them as often as you will, the Lorde pronounceth that they shall be no ministers to him, which haue no *knowledge.* 1.10

But let vs heare your reason (a) 1.11 there must be reading in the church, therfore there must be mi∣nisters, whiche can doe nothing else. Then we may reason thus to. There muste be breaking of bread, and distributyng of the cuppe in the Church, and pouring on water, therfore whosoeuer is able to breake aloafe of bread, or to lift a cup of wine, or to poure on water on the bodye of the chylde, may be made a minister.

And did you neuer reade, y^t there were readers in the Church, when there were no reading mi∣nisters? But of that of reading of the scriptures & prayers in the Church there wyll be a fitter place to speake afterward, where it shal be shewed how vniustly you surmise these things of them▪

Touching Homilies shal be spoken more hereafter, where further occasion is giuen.

Io. Whitgifte.

Sainct Paule. 1. Tim. 3. and Tit. 1. sheweth what qualities a Bishop or a Pastor ought to haue: but he doth not say, that if none can be founde, or not a sufficient num∣ber, in whome all these qualities do concurre, that then the Church shal rather be de∣stitute of ministers, than haue suche: for there were in his time that swarued from this rule, and yet was he glad they preached.

Of the ministers of this Churche of England, though diuerse be ignorant, yet inaye they by studye and diligente readyng of the Scriptures, Catechismes, Ho∣milies, and other godlie and necessarie bookes so profyte in knoweledge, that al∣thoughe they bée not able publikely to preache, yet maye they bée able priuately to exhorte, aud otherwyse also by Readyng the Scriptures and Homilies, accor∣ding to the order appoynted, greately profyte the people of God. But what should I contende with you in this matter? Thys Churche of Englande in this poynt professeth nothing, that is not allowed by the generall Confession of the Churches in Heluetia, from the whiche I thinke you will not dissente. That Confession as I tolde you before, hathe these woordes:

VVe condemne all vnmete ministers, not indued with giftes necessarie for a shepheard* 1.12 that should feed his flock: howbeit we acknowledge that the harmlesse simplicitie of some shepheardes in the olde churche, did sometimes more profite the churche, than the greate exquisite, and fine or delicate, but a little to proude learning of some others. VVherfore we reiect not nowadays the good simplicitie of certain, so that they bee not altogether vnskil∣full of God and his worde. There is nothing in that. 6. of Ozee that serueth your turne. You say, that I reason thus: There muste bee readyng in the Churche, therefore there muste bee Ministers that can doe nothyng else. You knowe what is wryt∣ten Sapi. 1. Os quod mentitur. &c. The mouthe that speaketh lyes, slayeth the

soule. &c. I woulde it were not so vsuall with you. My argumente is this, that for somuche as there can not be a sufficient number of preachers to furnish this churche of England in al places, therfore there may be reading ministers; that is such mini∣sters as by reading the scriptures & other bookes apointed vnto them, may profit y^e people & instruct them, for reading is necessarie in the Church. &c. This is my reason. That which you vse is a child of your own begetting, it is none of myne, as the Rea∣der can not choose but perceiue. The reason that foloweth of breaking bread and distribu∣ting the cup. &c. is vsed but for a iest, which ought not to be in serious matters, & ther∣fore I leaue it to them that are disposed to laugh, when they should rather wéepe.

I know there were readers of olde in the Churche, but they had not authoritie to administer the sacramentes, as our ministers haue, and of necessitie must haue, and* 1.13 lawfully may haue also, as it shall be hereafter declared.

Chap. 2. the fourth Diuision.

T. C. Page. 51. Sect. 7.

I dooe not vse to maintayn the places, which are quoted, although they be truely alleadged, for the (*) 1.14 causes, which I haue before mentioned, but yet I can not but speake of this place of saint Luke, for feare of the daunger that may ensue. For if this be a good reason, y^e the place of S. Luke may not be vsed to proue that preaching is perpetually annexed to the ministerie, bicause in y^t same place is made mention of curing of diseases, which is but a temporall thing, & followed the mini∣sterie, but for a time, then the comandement of S. Iames, *that the elders of the Church should* 1.15 pray for those that are sick, is now no commaūdement, bicause putting on of hands, and anoynting of them, that they might recouer their health, hath no place, and by this meanes you wyll pull from vs as many places of the newe testament, as you did before of the olde.

Io. Whitgifte.

You would no doubt maintey〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 all their places, if you could: for the quotations be the substance of that booke, & the thing that most persuaded the Reader, which credited al things there written without examination, & thought it must of necessitie be true, be∣ing so confirmed by the scriptures. And surely you could not haue greatlier condem∣ned the authors of that Admonitiō, than in suffring so many quotations of theirs to passe without defense. For what wickednesse can there be greater, than to abuse the Scriptures in maynteyning of sects and errours.

The place of Luke is not answered: the words of the texte be these: and he sent* 1.16 them to preache the kingdome of God, and to cure the sicke. &c. No man liuing can cōclude of this place, the one more, than he can do the other, & your words be but your owne: There be other places a number that be more generall than this, to proue preaching by: this was peculiar and proper to the disciples, as the whole circum∣stances of the place declare, for they are also commaunded to take nothing with them in their iorney, neither staues. &c. To preach is perpetuall, but it can not be gathered of this place, that none ought to be admitted into the ministerie but such as can preach, bicause it was peculiarly spoken to the Apostles, as the other circumstāces do proue. The commaundement of Saincte Iames is generall, for he telleth what all sicke men ought to doe, and the ministers lykewyse that resorte to the sicke, and therfore though the anoynting wyth oyle, whiche was a signe of the gift of healing, bée ta∣ken away bicause the gift is ceased, yet doth praying remayne still, and is perpetu∣all, and not onely proper to some ministers of the Churche, but common to all. Wherfore the places be not lyke: the one béeing spoken peculiarly to the disciples, the other generally to all ministers.

Oflicences to preache.

Chap. 3.

Admonition.

And if any be 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉o well disposed to preache in their owne charges, they may not withoute my Lordes licence.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 53. Sect. 1. 2. 3.

YOu here finde fault that if a preacher be disposed to preache in* 1.17 his cure, he may not do it without my Lordes licence.

Where the word of God is professed, & Christian magistrates go∣uern, there it is mete that no man should take vpon him any function except he be by the Magistrate, (to whom it doth appertein) thervn∣to admitted: And forasmuch as there be always in the church hypo∣crites, heretikes, schismatikes, & other euil disposed persons, whiche study for nothing more than to disquiet the state of the church, & to oc∣cupie the people with their factions, it is necessarie that none should be admitted to preache in any place, without he be thervnto licenced by the Bishop, who ought to haue a diligent care in that matter.

I suppose you are not of that mynd, that men maye nowe in this Church vnder Christian magistrates preach without licence: it hath always bin the opinion of wise, learned, & godlie men, that since the Apostles tyme, none wer ordinarily called to the office of preaching, but such as were called of God by man: only Anabaptists, and some other secte of heretikes teache the contrarie.

T. C. Pag. 51. Sect. 8. 9. & Pag. 52. Sect. 2.

What dealing is this to bring mē in suspition of y^t, which they neuer thought of, as though there were any word y^t founded to this, y^e a man should put himself into the office of preaching, without the approbation of those (*) 1.18 men, to whom it doth perteyne.

Their complaint is, that those which are ordeyned Pastors, and therfore to preach, can not do it without further licence: as if a man shoulde be charged to doe a thing forthwith, and then he that chargeth him, bindeth him hand & foote, that he can not do it vnlesse he will lose him.

The bishops inhable him to teach, & point him a place to teach in, & yet they wil not let him teath▪ vnlesse he haue a further licence. It h〈1 line〉〈1 line〉be an heretik or schismatike, or suspected of any such thing▪ why is he admitted, or being admitted, why is he suffred to be so much as a reader 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉n y^• churche〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉nd bicause you could not answer this, therfore you set vp a fansie of yours to confute. And thus you fight without an 〈◊〉〈◊〉, and you make triumphes, where there is no victorie.

They wil say vnto you, y^t not only vnder a godly magistrate, but not in y^e time of persecution any man ought to 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ake vpon him any function in y^e church▪ vnlesse he be ther vnto called by mē, except he haue a wonderful calling, which is rare, & must be 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉iligently examined by them, which haue it, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉nder pretence of the spirite of God, whom they make author of their calling, it fall out y^e 〈◊〉〈◊〉 be but their own he〈1 line〉〈1 line〉long affection that hath thrust thē in: so far they are from the frensy of Anaba〈1 line〉〈1 line〉tists, which you by a confutation of y^e, which they neuer affirmed, would seeme to staine them with.

Io. Whitgifte.

This Repl〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e cōsisteth partly of equiuocations, & partly of 〈◊〉〈◊〉 suppositiōs. For where you say, y^e no mā shuld put himself into the office of preaching, w^tout the approbation of those men, to whō it doth apertein: you speak ambiguously, & therfore you must explicate what you mean by those to whō it doth apertein: whether y^e people & seniors, as you cal them, or y^e bishops or y^e ciuil Magistrate, or such, to whō y^e ciuil Magistrat doth cōmit y^e iudging of such matters. For y^e Auabaptistes confesse y^e they must be called of their churches, but they deny y^e authoritie of the ciuil magistrat herein, & the authoritie of such also as he doth 〈◊〉〈◊〉 for y^t end & purpose. Again, you here suppose, y^t no man may preach out of his owne cure, & therfore being once admitted 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉o preach there, he nedeth no fur∣ther licence▪ Likewise you 〈◊〉〈◊〉 suppose that none may be admitted to preache, except he haue 〈◊〉〈◊〉: to be 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉hort, that 〈◊〉〈◊〉▪ heretikes, schismatikes, may be known foorth∣with, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 being suspected, by and by remoued out of the ministerie▪ all which suppositi∣o〈1 line〉〈1 line〉s bēe vntiue, and therfore this Replis full of greate absuraities. Their meaning is playne, that though there be iuste cause, why the Bishoppe should inhibite them from preachyng, bothe for theyr contentions, and also for their errours, yet woulde they preache whether the Byshoppe wyll or no, for the case is theyr owne. They were admytted to preache in theyr cures, and elsewhere, so long

as they vsed them selues modestlye, quietly, and taught sounde doctrine: but after they began to deuide the Churche, and make contention in it, they were restrayned from preachyng vntill suche tyme, as vpon their submission and reformation, they shoulde be there vnto admitted agayne: hinc illae lachrymae, this is the matter, and here∣to you answere, ne gry quidem.

Notes

• (*) 1.1

  Philip. 2. 20. 25.
• * 1.2

  Colos. 1. 7.
• * 1.3

  Luke. 9. 2
• * 1.4

  Unapt profes of the Admo∣nition.
• * 1.5

  Fayth com∣meth by rea∣ding.
• * 1.6

  The Zuin∣fildians con∣demne rea∣ding of scrip∣ture.
• * 1.7

  The causes of the lacke of able mini∣sters.
• * 1.8

  Tim. 1. 3.
• * 1.9

  Tit. 1.
• * 1.10

  Qzee. 6.
• (a) 1.11

  It is youre owne reason.
• * 1.12

  Confess. Hel∣uet.
• * 1.13

  Tract. 9. ca. 2. the. 2. deuision.
• (*) 1.14

  Nay, it is by∣cause you can no〈1 line〉〈1 line〉, for you wāt no good will.
• * 1.15

  Iames. 5.
• * 1.16

  Luke. 9.
• * 1.17

  Not to preac〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 without li▪ cence.
• (*) 1.18

  A doubtful〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 saying.