The defense of the aunsvvere to the Admonition against the replie of T.C. By Iohn VVhitgift Doctor of Diuinitie. In the beginning are added these. 4. tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the replie. 2 Of falsifications and vntruthes. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table generall.

¶ It is not necessarie that the people should haue interest in the election of ministers, but the con∣trarie is conuenient.

Chap. 8. the. 1. Diuision.

Io. Whitgifte.

NOwe that you haue vttered all your authorities and reasons, to proue that the people ought to haue interest in the electing of their ministers, & that I haue suf∣ficiently (I truste) answered the same: Lette it not be troublesome vnto you, if summarily I collect my reasons that moue me to thinke the contrarie.

• 1. And fyrst I will proue that there is no certaine forme of electing prescribed in Scripture, but that the same is left frée for the Churches to appointe, as shall bée thought most conuenient for their states and tymes.
• 2. Secondly, I will shewe, that there hath bene greate diuersitie from tyme to tyme, vsed in the Churche, touching elections, and that the people at all tymes, and in all places, haue not bene admitted thervnto.
• 3. Last of all, I will sette downe the reasons why the people haue bene debar∣red from such elections, and why they ought still so to bée.

Touching the fyrst, these be my reasons.

• 1. Chryst (whose factes and déedes we ought especially to followe) did of himselfe* 1.1 alone, without the consent of any, call, and choose his Apostles, and lykewise the 70. disciples whome he sent to preache.
• 2. The Apostles Acts. 1. altered this maner and forme: for they presented two, and the one of them was chosen by lotte.
• 3. In the. 6. of the Actes, they cleane altered this also: for the people presented seuen to the Apostles, and they were all chosen withoute lottes, the Apostles also layde on their handes vpon them.
• 4. In the. 14. of the Acts this forme is lykewise changed, for Paule and Bar〈1 line〉〈1 line〉abas ordeyned ministers in euery citie, without eyther presentment by the people, or ca∣sting of lottes.
• 5. In the. 13. of the Acts it is manyfest, that Paule and Barnabas were sent one∣ly by the Prophetes and Doctours, without any consent of the people, eyther giuen or required: reade the beginning of the Chapter, it is playne inough of it selfe.
• 6. Paule sent Timothie and Titus, and gaue them authoritie to ordeyne other:* 1.2 So that it is certayne, that here is no prescripte maner and forme appoynted, to be obserued for euer: séeing that the Apostles themselues did not bynd or tie themselues to anye suche rule: which both M. Bullinger, Zuinglius, and Beza, doe lykewyse con∣fesse, as I haue before declared. And therefore M. Caluine (as I tolde you before) sayth, that of that example in the first of the Acts no certayne rule can be gathered of electing and choosing ministers. And M. Beza is of the same iudgement both for that example Act. 1. and the other also of Deacons Act. 6. as I haue lykewise declared be∣fore. And in that booke of confession and. 5. Chapter, he hathe this saying worthie to be noted: Bycause the multitude is for the most parte ignorant and intractable, and the* 1.3 greater parte doth oftentymes preuayle agaynst the better, not in a popular state lawfully appoynted, are all things committed to the vnbridled multitude: but certain Magistrates are appoynted by the consent of the people, to rule and gouerne them: if this wysedome be in worldely affaires, muche more is a moderation to be had in those matters, wherein men be oftentymes blynded. Neyther is there any cause why any man of sounde iudge∣ment should exclame that in such matters there is no place for pollicie, except he can shew this policie wherof I speake, to be repugnant to the word of God, whiche I thinke he can not: Hitherto M. Beza: and he speaketh of the electors of Ministers. And a little after he sayth, that wee must not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in Ecclesiasticall pollicie,* 1.4

• or in the gouernment of the Churche, seeing there is so great diuersitie of circumstances, that a man can not without preposterous zeale reduce all things in all places and tymes, to one and the same forme: but it is sufficient, if respect be had to their ende and purpose, whiche is not variable, and that maner and forme vsed whiche leadeth therevnto. &c. Wherupon also I conclude, that in the Scriptures there is no certayne forme pre∣scribed* 1.5 of electing ministers: and that the dooings of the Apostles in that matter, are not at all tymes of necessitie to be folowed: but it is sufficient to respect their ende and purpose, that is, that there be méete ministers: and therfore M. Beza sayth, No man may here prescribe any certayn rule, but if the conscience be good, it is an easy mat∣ter to determine what is moste expedient for tyme, place, and other circumstances.

Chap. 8. the second Diuision.

2 Touching the seconde, that is for the diuersities of elections afterwarde vsed in* 1.6 the Churche, and that the people were not alwayes admitted to the same, I referre you to that whiche hath ben spoken before, out of Eusebius and Zuinglius, of the A∣postles appoynting of Iames to bée Bishoppe of Hierusalem: of Cypri lib. 1. Epist. 4. where he plainly confesseth, that, electing by the people was not then generall, in that he sayeth, Et fe〈1 line〉〈1 line〉è per prouincias vniuersas tenetur, and dothe the contrary himselfe in choosing one Aurelius without the consent of the people Lib. 2. Epist 5. Lykewise of the 18. Can. of the Councell of Ancyrane. 18. Canon of the Councell of Antioche. 12. and 13. Can. Con. Lao diceni: All which Canons and Councels I haue alleadged before.

In the fyrste of the Canons attributed to the Apostles, it is decréed that a Bi∣shoppe shoulde be ordeyned of two or thrée Bishoppes: and the Gréeke woorde is 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉.

In the seconde of the same Canons, the ordeinyng of Priestes, Deacons, and o∣ther clearks is cōmitted to the Bishop alone, & the gréeke word there is 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉* 1.7 lykewise.

In the. 35. or. 36. of the same Canons, it plainly appeareth, that Bishops were cho∣sen* 1.8 without the consent of the people.

In the. 4. Canon of the Councell of Nice, the election of Bishops is appoynted on∣ly* 1.9 to Bishops.

It appeareth plainly in the. 19. ca. Con. Anti〈1 line〉〈1 line〉cheni, that only the Metropolitane and o∣ther ministers had interest in the ordeinnig and apointing of Byshops.

It is manyfest by Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 8. and 23. that Origen was admitted and ordeined* 1.10 minister only by Bishops.

Hierome in his Epistle ad Nepotianum, in the wordes before recited, signifyeth that the election of Priestes doth p〈1 line〉〈1 line〉rteyne to the Bishop.

Gratian distinct. 62. hath this Canon made by Leo who was Bishop of Rome. Nul∣la ratio s〈1 line〉〈1 line〉it. &c. No reason permitteth that they should be accompted amōgst the Bishops, which are neither chosen of the Clearks, nor desired of the people, nor consecrated of the Bishops of that prouince, with the iudgement and allowance of the Metropolitane. The Glosse expounding what this is to be desired of the people, saythe, that it is to giue te∣stimonie vnto them. And no man denieth but that suche as are to be admitted into the ministerie, ought to haue a testimonie of their lyfe & conuersation, and that it should be lawfull for any man to except againste them, if there be iuste cause: but yet the iudgement not to rest in the people.

And distinct. 6〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. there is this lawe, Laici nullo modo se debent ins〈1 line〉〈1 line〉rere electioni, The laye* 1.11 people ought by no meanes to thruste themselues into the election, or to meddle with the election. There are certain Canons collected out of the gréek Synodes by Martin Bra∣caren. Episco. and they are to be founde to. Conci. 2. the firste of the Canons is this, the* 1.12 whiche Gratian also hath distinct. 63. Non licet populo. &c. It is not lawfull for the peo∣ple, to make the election of them which are preferred to priesthoode: but it is in the iudge∣ment of the Bishops, that they should proue him, which is to be ordeined, whether he bee instructed in the word, and in faith, and in spirituall conuersation. The same may be also proued by the 2. and. 3. Canons folowing

In the same distinc. there is this Canon taken oute of the. 8. generall Councell. Consecrationes & promotiones. &c. This holie and generall Councell agreeyng with former Councels, hath decreed and enacted, that the consecrations and promotions of Bishops should be made by the election of the Cleargie, and by the decree and Colledge of the Bishops.

Theodoret lib. 4. cap. 5. sayth, that when Auxentius béeing an Arian, was depriued* 1.13 of the Bishoprike of Millain, Valentinian the Emperour called together the Bishops, and willed them to place such a one in that bishoprike, as he might safely commit himself vnto. &c. and when as they desyred the Emperour that he himself would choose one whome hée thought méete, the Emperour tolde them agayne, that it were much bet∣ter for them to elect one, bycause they were best able to iudge of his metenesse. And al∣though the people, béeing diuided tumultuously requested the Bishops, some for one, some for an other, and at the length all desired to haue Ambrose, yet it maye eui∣dently appeare, that the interest of the election, was in the Bishops, and the con∣firmation and allowyng of the same in the Emperoure. And in that the Bishoppes woulde haue committed the whole matter to the Emperour, it may appeare, that it greatly skilleth not who doo choose, so that suche be chosen as be fit for the place.

In the. 63. distinct. of Gratian, it is also to be séene, that sometyme the election* 1.14 and allowing of Bishops was wholly giuen to the Emperour, as we may reade in the decrée of Adrian the Pope there mentioned: and in the decrée of Leo the first, where he sheweth, howe that the dissentions, heresies, and schismes that were in the Churche, was the cause why that both the election of the Romain Bishop, and of other also was committed to the Emperour.

Whereby it is euident, thal the people haue not at all tymes, nor in all places had interest in the elections of ministers. I knowe that Gratian in the same distinc∣tion sayth as muche in the behalfe of the people, but therby we maye gather, that this election hath bene variable, and from tyme to tyme vsed according to the place, tyme, and persons. For further proofe hereof, I coulde recite the varietie that nowe is, and heretofore also hath bene, euen in reformed Churches, but to auoyd te∣diousnesse, I referre that to euery mans owne searche.

This is moste certaine, that the forme prescribed in the second Admonition, and in this Replie of T. C. also, if it be considered, will appeare to haue in it nihil Apo∣stolicum, nothing Apostolicall, but to differ as muche from any forme that was then v∣sed, as this doth that we retaine in the Churche of England at this day, and a great deale more.

Chap. 8. the. 3. Diuision.

The reasons why the people haue bene secluded from such elections, and so ought* 1.15 to be, are these.

1. Fyrst, the meruailous contentions that haue bin in suche kinde of elections, by the sinister affections of the people, béeyng easily moued to diuision and partes ta∣king, vpon euery light occasion. Examples wherof there be infinite almoste in eue∣rye* 1.16 election, as it may enidently appeare to euery one, that hath but lyghtly runne ouer any Ecclesiastical historie.

When Damasus was chosen Bishop of Rome, there was one Vrsicinus a Dea∣con* 1.17 sette vp against him, and the contention was so vehement betwixte them, and the rage of the people so intemperate, that they fell from voyces to blowes, in so∣much that there was many slaine, euen in the place of election.

What sedition was there moued in the election of Boniface the second, when* 1.18 Dioscorus contended with him for the Bishoprike, the people were so deuided, that the contention could not be ended but with the death of Dioscorus.

The lyke brawle was in the elections of Conon, Sergius, Paulus. 1. Constantinus,* 1.19 and almost in euery election made in that seate: as it is euident in suche stories, as especially entreate of the liues of the Bishops of Rome.

The lyke sturre there hath bin in other places also, especially after that the chur∣ches

were deuided with heresies and sects. At Constantinople, after the death of Alex∣ander their Byshop, there was a maruellous vprore for his successor, some desiring to haue Paule a Catholike, and some Macedonius an Arrian: this contention was so ve∣hement, that the whole citie was disturbed and many slaine on both parties, yea euen the Emperours officer that was sent to appease it. Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 4. &. 7.

The strife that was in the same place, after the death of Atticus, (Philip, Prochis, and Sisinius, striuing for the Byshopricke at one time) Socrates testifyeth lib. 7. cap. 26.* 1.20 the same doth he write also to haue bin betwixt Philip and Prochis, after the depriua∣tion of Nestorius lib. 7. cap. 35.

After Endoxius remoued from Antioch to Constantinople, there was in Antioch great strife for a successor, as the same Sozo sheweth lib. 4. cap. 28. where he addeth these wordes: as in such things it commeth to passe, that ther are diuers contentions and seditions betwixt the Cleargie and betwixt the people.

Socrates lib. 5. cap. 9. declareth the like tumultes to haue bin aboute the election of Flauianus: and he addeth, atque ita Antiochena ecclesia denuò, non propter fidem sed propter Epis∣copos scinditur. And so the Church of Antioch is agayne deuided, not for matters of faith, but for their Byshops.

I declared before out of Nazianzene in his funerall oration at the buriall of his fa∣ther,* 1.21 what great trouble and daunger was at Cesaria in his time, about the election of their Byshops. The same also I noted out of Augustine Epist. 110. it was the cause why* 1.22 both he and his predecessor in their life times, did prouide to themselues successors, as it is there manifest.

Socrates lib. 6. cap. 11. declareth what contention there was at Ephesus, about the elec∣tion* 1.23 of their Byshop, the people being deuided into sundry factions, in somuche that Chrysostome was himselfe enforced to appoint vnto them one Heraclis his Deacon.

The same Authoure lib. 7. cap. 7. testifyeth the like contention to haue bin in Alexan∣dria,* 1.24 whilest some desired Timothie an Archdeacon, othersome Cyrill.

Euagrius li. 2. ca. 5. writeth thus: Cum antem bic Proterius. &c. when this Proterius was pla∣ced in the Byshops seate of Alexandria, there arose a greate and intollerable tumult among the people, which were tossed with diuers sentences: for (as it often falleth out in such cases) some would haue Dioscorus agayne: others stucke stoutly to Proterius, so that many incu∣rable mischieses were committed. For Priscus the Rhetorician writeth, that the gouer∣nour of Thebes came the same time to Alexandria, and saw the people wholly to set them selues agaynste the magistrates, and that when the garison of souldiers woulde haue kepte backe the sedition, they beate them backe with stones into the temple, whiche was in times past called the temple of Serapis: then the people comming thither with speede, tooke the temple and burned the souldiers quicke. But whēthe Emperour vnderstoode herof, he sent thither two thousand new souldiers, who hauing a prosperous winde & passage, arriued the sixt day after at the great citie of Alexandria, and so raged against the wiues and daughters of the men of Alexandria, that much more mischiefe was now wrought than before.

To what further inconuenience this intollerable contention came afterwards, the same Euagrius writeth cap. 8. where he also describeth the manners and conditions of* 1.25 the people at large, and declareth how easely they are moued to contentions and tu∣multuous dealing, how willingly led by any factious person that pretēdeth liberty. &c. In the end he sheweth how villanously and cruelly they murdered Proterius appointed to be their Byshop.

What should I speake of that hurlyburly that was in Millains before the election* 1.26 of Ambrose, whereof Theodo. speaketh lib. 4. cap. 6.

I shal desire y^e learned reader to peruse Chrysostome in the. 3. booke that he writeth de sacerdotio wher he speaketh of this matter plentifully, & declareth y^e maruelous partia∣litie & the vntollerable cōtentiōs that y^e people vsed, & was y^e cause of, in such electiōs.

If I were disposed to heape vp examples, I could fill a large volume, but these (be∣ing almost in the best time of the Church, vnder Christian Princes) manifestly de∣clare what intollerable inconuenience ensueth such elections, as are committed to the people, especially in these matters.

2 My seconde reason is, that if suche elections shoulde be committed to the people, the 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉iuill Magistrate (who hath the chéefe gouernment of the Churche, and to whome the especiall care of religion doth apperteine) should not be able to procure such refor∣mation, nor such consent and agreement in matters of religion, as he is, when he hath himselfe the placing of Bishops, and such as be the chiefe of the Cleargie: for the peo∣ple* 1.27 (who are commonly be〈1 line〉〈1 line〉t to nouelties, and to factions, and most ready to receyue that doctrine that séemeth to be contrary to the present state, and that enelineth to li∣bertie) would vsually elect suche as would féede their humours: So that the Prince neyther should haue quiet gouernment, neyther could be able to preserue the peace of the Church, nor yet to plant that religion, that he in conscience is perswaded to be 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ncere. As for the authoritie of 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉isalowing their elections, which you giue vnto him, it is but an intollerable trouble, and besides that he shall not vnderstand their doings: or if he doth, yet may he not depriue them of their libertie in choosing, so that you make his authoritie in effect nothing. Moreouer his Churches and whole kingdome shoulde be filled with Anabaptists, Libertines, Papists, Puritanes, and an hundreth sects mo, or euer he were aware: for who will complayne of him, whome the people do phan∣si〈1 line〉〈1 line〉, be he neuer so vnméete a person?

3 My thirde reason is taken out of your owne booke Fol. 25. where you say that the* 1.28 Archdeacon may not be iudge of the aptnesse and ablenesse of the Pastor, bycause, he is inferi∣〈1 line〉〈1 line〉re to the Pastor, both in calling and gifts: which if it be true, then surely may not the peo∣ple haue any thing to do in the election of the Pastor, being in all respects much more inferioure vnto him, than the Archdeacon is: for to haue interest in electing, is to be ad∣mitted to iudge of his meetenesse and aptnesse, that is to be admitted.

4 It would be a cause why many Churches shoulde be longer destitute of their* 1.29 Pastors than is conuenient, for if an vnméete man were chosen, and an appeale made to the next Pastours, and from them to the next Synode prouinciall, and then the parishioners that will not yéeld, excommunicated, and after excōmunication com∣playned of to the Prince, and then driuen to a new election and in the same peraduē∣ture as wayward as they were before: whilest I say, all this were in doing (besides the maruellous schismes, contentions, brawlings, and hatred, that must of necessitie in the meane time be among them) two or thrée yeares might soone be spent: for all these things cannot be in due order well done in lesse time) al which time the parishes must be destitute of a pastor, & burne with those mischiefes that I haue before recited.

5 It would make the gouernment of the Church popular, which is the worst kind* 1.30 of gouernment that can be. For it is true that M. Caluine saith, cap. 20. Instit. Procliuis est à regno. &c. The fall from a kingdome into a tyrannie is very redy, and the change from the gouernment of the best, into the Factions of a fewe is not much harder: but the fall from a popular state into a sedi〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ion, is of all other most easie.

6 The people (as I haue said before) through affection and want of iudgement are* 1.31 easily brought by ambitious persons to giue their consent to vnworthy men: they are soone moued by the request of their frends, and of such as they eyther feare or loue, to do anything, as may appeare in sundry things cōmitted vnto thē of great importāce: yea sometime when by oth they are bound to deale without al affection, or parcialitie.

7 By this meanes they would thinke to haue their pastor bound vnto them, so that* 1.32 they would take it disdainefully to be reproued by him, according as his duetie would require Againe the pastoure considering their good will in preferring of him, woulde not so freely 〈◊〉〈◊〉 them, nor willingly displease them.

8 To conclude, the people are for the most part rude and ignorant, carelesse also in* 1.33 suche matters, and more me〈1 line〉〈1 line〉te to be ruled, than to rule: For as Chrysostome de〈1 line〉〈1 line〉eth, Populus est quiddam tumultus, &c. The people is a certaine thing full of tumult and sturres, consisting and rashly compacted for the most part of folly, oftentimes tossed with variable and contrary iudgement, like to the waues of the sea. &c.

These and a great number mo reasons may be alleadged, why the people are to be s〈1 line〉〈1 line〉uded from the election of their Pastors: and yet do I not so vtterly seclude them from such elections: but that if they haue any thing to obiect agaynste him that is to

be ordeyned, they might be heard: which order is prescribed in the booke of making ministers: and that is asmuche as can be required. Althoughe I doe not condemne those Churches, wherin this is safely committed vnto them: for I only speake of the present estate of this Churche of Englande.

The reason why I doe thinke the Bishops to be the fittest to haue both the allo∣wing and ordeyning of such as are to be ministers, I haue expressed in my answere to the Admonition. And they are not as yet by better reasons confuted.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Math. 10. Luke. 10.
• * 1.2

  1. Tim. 5 2. Tim. 1. Tit. 1.
• * 1.3

  Beza lib. con〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 cap. 5.
• * 1.4

  Idem.
• * 1.5

  The end of the Apostles in ecclesiasti∣call pollicie, must be regar ded, and not their deedes. Ibidem.
• * 1.6

  That the people were not always admitted to the election of ministers. Eusebius. Zuinglius. Cyp〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ian. Concil. Ancy. Antiochen. Laodicen. Can. Apost. 1.
• * 1.7

  Can. 2.
• * 1.8

  Can. 35. 36.
• * 1.9

  Cōcil Nicanū. Can. 4 Antioch. 19.
• * 1.10

  Eus. li. 6. ca. 8. 23. Hieronymus Epist. ad Ne∣potian. Distinct. 62. Nulla.
• * 1.11

  Distinct. 63. Laici.
• * 1.12

  Tom. 2. Con.
• * 1.13

  Theod. lib. 4. cap. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉.
• * 1.14

  Distinct. 6〈1 line〉〈1 line〉.
• * 1.15

  Why the peo∣ple haue bene, & nowe ought to be debarred from the elec∣tion.
• * 1.16

  Contention a∣bout the elec∣tion of mini∣sters.
• * 1.17

  Plat. in vita Damasi.
• * 1.18

  Platina.
• * 1.19

  Platina.
• * 1.20

  Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 4. &. 7. Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 26. Lib. 7. cap. 35. Sozom. lib. 4 cap. 28. Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 9.
• * 1.21

  Nazianzene
• * 1.22

  August in. tom. 2. epi. 110.
• * 1.23

  Socrat. lib. 6. cap. 11.
• * 1.24

  Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 7. Euagrius li. 2. cap. 5.
• * 1.25

  Euagrius li. 2. cap. 8.
• * 1.26

  Theod. lib. 4. cap. 6. Chrysost. lib. 3. de sacerdotio.
• * 1.27

  The election of ministers by the people, an impedimēt to the ciuill magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters.
• * 1.28

  If the people should choose, the inferioure in gifts shuld be iudge of the superiour. Pag. 25. lin. 3.
• * 1.29

  Popular ele∣ctions a cause of long want of pastors, &c
• * 1.30

  Popular ele∣ction a cause of a popular gouernment.
• * 1.31

  The people easily led by affection.
• * 1.32

  A hindrance to the Pastor in doing his duty.
• * 1.33

  The people vnfit to be iudges in such cases. Chrys. 2. in. 〈◊〉〈◊〉