The defense of the aunsvvere to the Admonition against the replie of T.C. By Iohn VVhitgift Doctor of Diuinitie. In the beginning are added these. 4. tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the replie. 2 Of falsifications and vntruthes. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table generall.

T. C. Page. 38. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. vlt. &. Sect 39. Sect. 1 2.

The place is to commō which you assigne, you had I am sure the booke before you: you might haue tolde where the place was, and in what title. But that place of Musculus in the title of the magistrate, is answered by himsel〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e in the same booke, where he entreateth of the election of the mi∣nisters. For going about (as it seemeth) to satisfie some of their ministers, whiche were brought in do〈1 line〉〈1 line〉bt of their calling, bycause they were not chosen by their Churches, speaking of the vse of the Church in choosing their minister he sayth thus.

First it must be playnly confessed, that the ministers were in times past chosen by consente of the people, and or〈1 line〉〈1 line〉eyned and confirmed of the seignioures.

Secondarily that that forme of election was Apostolicall and lawfull.

Thirdly, that it was conformable to the libertie of the Church, and that thrusting the Pastor vpon the Churche, not being chosen of it, doth agree to a Church that is not free, but subiecte to bond〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ge.

Fourthly, that this forme of choise by the Churche maketh much both to that that the minister may gouern his slocke with a good conscience, as also that the people may yeld themselues to be ea∣slier ruled, than when one commeth against their willes vnto them.

And to conclude all these, he sayth that they are altogyther certeyne, and such as cannot be de∣nyed. After he sayth that the corrupt estate of the Church and religion driueth to alter this order, and to call the election to certayne learned men, which should after be confirmed of the Prince. And that it may yet more cleerely appeare that his iudgement is nothing lesse than to confirme this e∣lection, he setteth downe their election in Bernland, whiche he approueth and laboureth to make good as one which although it doth not fully agree with the election of the primitiue Churche, yet commeth very neare vnto it: As that not one mā, but al the ministers in the citie of Berue do choose a Pastor when there is any place void.

Afterward he is sent to the Senate, from the which, if he be doubted of, he is sent agayne to the ministers, to be examined, and then if they find him meete, he is confirmed of the Senate (whiche

standeth of some number of the people) and by the moste parte of their voyces. By these things it appeareth, that this election of the Minister, by the people, is lawfull and Apost〈1 line〉〈1 line〉like, and con∣fe〈1 line〉〈1 line〉sed also by him, that those that are otherwise, bring with them subiection vnto the Church, and seruitude, and carya note and marke of corruption of Religion.

Laste of all that he go〈1 line〉〈1 line〉h about to defende the election vsed in the Churches where he was Minister by thys, that it approched vnto the election in the primitiue Churche. Nowe what cause there may be, that we should bring the Churche into bondage, or take awaye the order whereby bothe the Minister maye be better assured of hys calling, and the people maye the willyngiyer sub∣mitte them selues vnto theyr pastors and gouernours, or what cause to departe from the Aposto∣lyke forme, of the choyse of the Pastor beyng lawfull, I confesse I knowe not, and woulde be gladde to learne.

To assigne the cause hereof vnto the Christian Magistrate, and to saye, that these things can not be hadde vnder hym (as you vnder Maister Musculus name doe affyrme) is 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉o doe greate iniurie vnto the office of the Magistrate, whyche abridgeth not the libertie of the Churche but defendeth it, diminisheth not the Pastor his assurance of his calling, but rather encreaseth it, by establishyng the ordinarie callyngs onely, whiche in the time of perse〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ution some tymes are not so ordinarie, withdraweth not the obedience of the people from the Pastor, bu〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 vrgeth it where it is not, and constrayneth it where it is not voluntarie? And seeyng that also (*) 1.1 Musculus sayth, that these forced elections are remedyes for corruption of Religion, and disordered states, what greater dishonour can there be done vnto the holy institution of God in the ciuill gouernour, than to saye that these forced elections wythout the consent of the people, muste be where there is a Christian Magistrate: as thoughe there coulde be no pure Religion vnder him, when as in deede it maye be easily vnder hym pure, whiche can hardly, and with greate daunger be pure withoute hym. And when as it is sayde, that the Churches consente shoulde be hadde in the election of the Minister, (a) 1.2 we doe not denie the confirmation of the elections vnto the godly ciuill Magistrate and the disanulling of them, if the Churche in choosing, and the Ministers in directing, shall take any vnfitte man, so that yet, he doe not take away the libertie from the Church, of choosing a more conuenient man.

So that you see, that by Musculus your witnesse reasons, thys enforced election withoute the consente of the people, is but corrupte, and so oughte not to be in the Churche. And that al∣though it hath bene borne withall, yet it must be spoken against, and the lawfull forme of election la∣boured for, of all those that loue the truth, and the sinceritie therof.

Io. Whitgifte.

Turpe est doctori. &c. you haue before tolde vs, what Iustinian sayth (a) 1.3 in codice: Al∣so* 1.4 of(b) 1.5 an Epistle sent from the councell of Nice vnto the Churche of Egipt, as Theodoret ma∣keth mention: of the councell of (c) 1.6 Carthage, of (d) 1.7 Toletane councell, and afterwarde you tell vs what (e) 1.8 Augustine (*) 1.9 & Gratiā say, and wil, that (f) 1.10 the centuries should be seene. &c. & yet you neither tell vs in what part of Iustinians Code, in what booke of Chap. of Theodoret, in what coūcel of Cartharge, or of Toledo, in what tome of Augustine, or part of Gratiā, in what centurie, or booke of centuries, which all require much more tyme to search out, than this of Musculus, & especially your law, which (for any thing that I can perceiue) asketh so long a searche in codice Iustiniani, that I thinke it will neuer be founde there. But it is no great marueile for you reporte them as the Author doth of whom you borowe them, without any further searche or tryall. But to put you out of doubt, this place of Musculus is titulo de Magistratibus.

Musculus in déede confesseth that in the Apostles tyme, ministers were choosen by the people, and ordeyned and confirmed by the elders. And after that he hath shewed this man∣ner of election to haue béene vsed t〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 Cyprians tyme, he addeth and sayth: Ad hunc ita∣que* 1.11 modum eligebantur. &c. After thys manner in tymes paste were Ministers, Byshoppes, and Deacons elected: the whyche forme also of electing, Churches reteyned vnto the tyme of Christian Princes and Magistrates, whose consent was required in the election of Byshoppes, and that worthily, for it is not meete that those things whiche are to be done publikely, and concerne the people whiche be their subiectes, and perteine vnto them in respect of Religion (except we wil say with the Anabap. that Christians ought not to be Ma∣gistrates) shoulde be done without their consent.

After this, he declareth how the Bishop of Rome in the end, spoyled the Magistrate and the people also of this libertie: and when he hath spoken against the abuses of the Romane Church in that matter, he maketh an obiection of such Churches as professe the Gospell, saying, but some peraduenture wi〈1 line〉〈1 line〉l obiect that those Churches whyche in our time will seme to haue reformed Religion receiue their ministers of the Magistrate, &

not by any election of the people: to this obiection he sayth that he is compelled to an∣swere for their sakes: who though they faithfully labour in the word of the Lord, yet do they doubte whether their vocatiō be lawfull or no, bicause they were not elected & ordei∣ned according to the Apostolicall forme: And hauing confessed those points y^t you here set downe, he maketh this resolutiō. Verū si consideres diuersū ecclesiae statū. &c. If thou shalt consider the diuers state of the Church, thou must confesse, that that which in it self is Apo∣stolicall, lawful, & vsuall, & conuenient for the libertie of the Churches, primis quidē ecclesiae tēporibus prodesse potuisse, nostris vero non ita: might wel profit the Church in the beginning, but not so in our time. For thē there was not such a multitude of Christiās, but that the mi∣nister without tumult, might by cōmon consent be chosen, which thing at this day were ve∣ry hard to be done. Moreouer thē the mindes of the faithfull were not so generally infected with cōmon errors, nor so blinded with false worshippings, but they remained as yet in the doctrine & Religion which they had receiued of the Apostles: wherfore it might well be, that a true minister might be chosen by their cōmon suffrages. But after that the number of Christiās was encreased to an infinite multitude, & first schismes, then generall ignorance, blindnesse, & sundry kinds of superstitiō inuaded the Church, &c. there could no longer any true & sincere minister be elected by the generall consent of the people &c. wherefore for the conditiō of the time, necessitie it self required, that Princes & Magistrates should com∣mit this matter to certaine wise mē carefull for the Church, by whose meanes meete pastors might be placed, &c. then he addeth: that for the circumstāces of time, as in all Churches the Apostolicall forme of electing & ordeining cannot be restored▪ so is there no cause, why the minister of Christ, being called to preach the Gospell by a godly Prince, & Magistrate, shuld doubt of his calling, whether it be right & Christian or no. But he must remēber that where the state of the Church, & of Religiō is corrupt, another way must be found out to remedie the same, than that which was vsed in the Churches, when all things was safe and sound. In the end he declareth what maner of electing & ordeining Ministers is vsed in y^e church of Berne. Neyther doth he in that place or any other that I knowe, goe aboute to de∣fende the election vsed in the Church where he was Minister, by this, that it approched vnto the election of the Primitiue Church, as you report him to do. Thus haue I truely repor∣ted Musculus his wordes in that place, and his order: than the whiche what can be more directly spoken to my purpose? whiche is to proue that no one certaine maner and forme of electing Ministers, is anywhere appointed to be generall, and perpe∣tuall, but that the same may be altered accordyng to place, tyme, and persons: and that the manner vsed in the Apostles time, is not méete and conuenient for this time. All this I saye Musculus hath plainely, and by good reasons héere proued, whyche he doth also as manifestly confirme in the title de Magistratibus. For after that he hath declared that it perteineth to the Magistrate to appoint Church Ministers, he sayth dices: at secùs factum est in primis ecclesijs, in quibus à ministris & plebe eligebantur ecclesiarum an∣tistites, respondeo, talis tum ecclesiarum erat status. &c. as it is in my answere.

For the subiection and bondage of the Church which you so often talke of, this is my answere in few words: that subiection to lawful Magistrates in matters lawful, is no bondage to any, but to such as thinke dutifull obedience to be seruitude & bondage, as the Anabaptistes do. Why the people are debarred from electing (which you call the Apostolicall forme of the choise of the Pastor) you may learne by that which hath béen hetherto spoken, if you be so desirous to learne, as you would séeme to be.

That the minister may be well assured of the lawfulnesse of his calling, though* 1.12 he be not called of the people, you haue also hearde of Musculus, who of purpose an∣swereth that doubte. He that is sure of an inwarde calling néede not to doubt of hys outward calling, if it be according to the manner and forme of that Church wherein he is called.

That the people doe as willingly now submit them selues to their Pastors and gouernours, (though they haue no interest in electing of them) as they did then, expe∣rience teacheth in all places, where there be good and vertuous pastors, except onely in such as you and yours haue set on fire with contention and contempte. You saye to assigne the cause hereof to the Christian Magistrate. &c. We giue vnto the Magistrate

that which of duetie belongeth vnto him in the respecte that he is a Christian Magi∣strate, and hath the chiefe gouernment of the Church in all causes, & ouer all persons: and you desirous of popularitie, withdraw from the Magistrate that which is due vn∣to him, giuing the same to the people, and vulgar sort.

You counte it an abridging of the libertie of the Church, a diminishing of the pastors assu∣rance of his calling, a withdrawing of the people from the pastor, to be shorte, a brynging of the people into bondage, for the Magistrate to mainteine his right in vsing that kinde of ap∣pointing Ministers, which he thinketh to be most profitable for the Churche commit∣ted vnto him: and is not this to doe great iniurie to the office of the Magistrate? Why doe you not plainely say that the Quéenes Maiestie abridgeth the libertie of the Church, dimi∣nisheth the pastors assurance of his calling, withdraweth the people from their pastor, vrgeth and constraineth them to that which is voluntarie, & bringeth them into bondage, bicause she will not suffer them to haue fredome in the elections of their Bishops, and Pastors? for this is your plaine meaning. But temper your popular and vndutifull speaches: the true* 1.13 libertie of the Church, which is libertie of conscience, and fredome from false doctrine, errors and superstitions, and not licence for euery man to doe what himselfe liweth, was neuer more in any Church: pastors neuer had better cause to be assured of their calling: the people at no time more bound to cleaue to their pastors: neuer lesse cause to complaine of vrging constraint, seruitude, or bondage, than they haue at this daye vnder hir Maiestie: but you go about to perswade them to the contrary, which where vnto it tendeth, would be in time considered.

Musculus saythe, that this manner of ordering Ministers (for he doth not call it* 1.14 forced elections) is a remedie against corrupted states, not in respect of laws, gouernment, Magistrate, or Religion by authoritie established, but of menues myndes that are corrupted with errors, contentions, and sinister affections, and this is no dishonor to the ciuill gouernor. For if in a kingdome there be many wayward and disordered persons, the fault is in themselues, and not in the Magistrate, nor in the kind of gouernment, but a great commendation rather, when as by the diligence of the Magistrate, and profitable kinde of gouernment, such disordered persons be corrected and reformed, or at the least kept vnder and restrained. Is it a dishonor to the Prince, that where as she founde the whole Realme corrupted in doctrine, now it is otherwyse, though not in the heartes of many, yet in externall forme, and publike regiment? Wherefore you do but subtilly, (I will not saye contemptuously) transfer that to the Magistrate and kynd of gouernment, which Musculus meaneth of the corrupt mindes and affec∣tions of the common sort of men.

You adde that when it is sayd, that the Churches consent shoulde be had in the election of* 1.15 the minister. &c. but how shall we know that you meane as you speake? for you haue no warrant so to doe in any Apostolicall election, or in any forme vsed in the Apostles time. Wherefore either you must breake that rule which you would haue both to be perfit, and perpetuall for all times, and states, or else doe you but dissemble with the Magistrate, and minde nothing lesse than that you say you would do.

But as good neuer a whit, as neuer a deale the better: for the Magistrate muste* 1.16 confyrme them, or reiecte them, if he be godly, and take not from the Churche hir libertie in choosyng. First, what if the Magistrate be vngodly? or who shall iudge whether he be so or no? or howe shall the Magistrate knowe when the Churche in choosing, and the Ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man? who shall complayne to the Prince of his vnfitnesse, if both the Ministers and people thinke him fitte? or who shall iudge of hys fitnesse? or what priuiledge shal the Magistrate haue hereby, when he muste haue one of the peoples electing whether he will or no, or else muste the Church the distitute? Surely the Magistrate should haue a good office, to be so troubled with suche elections in this Churche of Englande. In good sadnesse tell me, doe you not sée the absurdities of these youre fonde and troublesome deuises? or are you so blynde, that you perceyue not how farre you would swarue from the forme,

which you saye was vsed by the Apostles, when you giue to the ciuill Magistrate the confirmation of ministers, which they in their time kept to themselues?

Musculus hath in most playne manner taught the selfe same thing, that I haue done, as it may appeare to all those that will vnderstand: but you of purpose woulde blind both your selfe and others.

Notes

• (*) 1.1

  Musculu〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ning 〈◊〉〈◊〉
• (a) 1.2

  Here you ar〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉one 〈◊〉〈◊〉 from your Apostolica〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 forme.
• (a) 1.3

  Pag. 36. Sect. 2.
• * 1.4

  T. C. tripped in that wher〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 he findeth fau〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 with other.
• (b) 1.5

  Page. 37. Sect. 3.
• (c) 1.6

  Page. 37. Sect. 5.
• (d) 1.7

  Ibidē sect▪ 6
• (e) 1.8

  Pag. 4〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. Sect. 2.
• (*) 1.9

  Pag. 72. Sect. 3.
• (f) 1.10

  Pag. 71. Sect. 6.
• * 1.11

  Tit. de ve〈1 line〉〈1 line〉b▪ ministris.
• * 1.12

  The minister may be assured of hys calling though he be not chosen by the people.
• * 1.13

  The true li∣bertie of the Church.
• * 1.14

  T. C. trans∣fei reth y^t cor∣ruptions of mens myndes, to the gouern∣ment.
• * 1.15

  T. C. vrgeth the Apostoli∣call forme, and yet bringeth in that which is not Apostoli∣call.
• * 1.16

  The absurdi∣ties of the de∣uise of T. C.