The defense of the aunsvvere to the Admonition against the replie of T.C. By Iohn VVhitgift Doctor of Diuinitie. In the beginning are added these. 4. tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the replie. 2 Of falsifications and vntruthes. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table generall.

An examination of the reasons which T. C. vseth to proue the perpetuall equitie, &c. of elections by the people.

Chap. 5. the. 1. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 32. Sect. 8.

It is sayde amongest the Lawyers, and in deede reason which is the law of all nations con∣firmeth it, Quod omnium interest, ab. omnibus approbari debet. That which standeth all men vp∣pon, shoulde be approued of all men. Whiche lawe hath this sense, that if it may be, it were good that those thinges, whiche shall binde all men, and whiche require the obedience of all shoulde be concluded as farre as may be, by the consent of all, or at least by the consent of as many as may be gotten. And therefore it draweth muche the obedience of the subiectes of this realme; that the sta∣tutes whereby the realme is gouerned; passe by the consent of the moste parte of it, whilest they be made by them, whome the rest put in trust, and choose for that purpose, beeing as it were all their actes.

Io. Whitgifte.

You vse for your purpose a rule of the lawe, whiche you doe not vnderstande, nor* 1.1 rightly interprete: for where as this word Debet, importeth a necessitie, you expound it as a word of courtesie, saying, if it may be, and it were good to be concluded: when as the lawe sayth, Debet approbari, it ought to be allowed. And reason wil the same, that where many men haue interest in any thing, or haue any thing in common, whereof euery of them hathe a priuate interest, right, or propertie, there euery mans consent should be had: as if a house, or any other thing be common among halfe a dosen men by pur∣chase, discent, or gifte, and fiue of them would burden that thing with any charge, or doe any acte to preiudice the sixte man, it shall not binde him without his consent: for there this rule is true. Further more a thing is sayde omnes tangere, to perteyne to all, whiche is common either Pluribus vt vniuersis, or else Pluribus vt singulis. In the first kinde, are those things that pertayne to bodies politike, as the body of a whole common wealth, Citie, Borough, Towne, Colledge, Churche. &c. Wherein (as the Lawyers say) this rule hathe no force. The reason of the lawe is, bicause it béeing almoste an impossible thing, for all men in suche a body to agrée in one, and there béeing amongst men for the moste parte (as it were) a naturall inclination to dissent, and disagrée one from an other, there should neuer any law or order be made, if euery singular mans consent should of necessitie be had: It is therefore sufficient in suche places and matters, if the lawes, statutes, and customes of the place be obserued.

Wherefore the rule hathe onely place in the seconde: that is, in thinges that are* 1.2 common Pluribus vt singulis, to many seuerally, that is, wherein euery man hathe a proprietie and particular righte: as it is properly in landes, possessions. &c. in the whiche the Minister can not be comprehended: for it were a greate absurditie,

that in the election of the minister euery singular mans consent shoulde of necessitie be required: for then if any one frowarde man in the whole parishe were disposed to withstande the election, it coulde neuer be ended: and this muste necessarily come to passe, if you will builde vpon this lawe.

And yet in suche cases this law admitteth this generall exception, if there be espe∣ciall* 1.3 reason and cause why that thing whiche concerneth many, shoulde be done by some other way, rather than by the consent of them, whiche haue interest. And these are taken for good reasons in this case: Fyrst, if it be rather behouefull for the com∣mon wealthe, and Churche of God to doe that whiche concerneth a number, some other way, rather than by the consent of euery particular man. Secondly, if it be for the more quiet estate of the common wealthe, not to haue their consent. Thirdly, if it be better for the parties themselues, to haue it otherwise prouided: Last of all, if it be agaynst the lawes of God, or of the customes and lawes of any Countrey.

If I were a Lawyer, I could tell you, that this law admitteth many exceptions. What is more expedient for all men, than to haue a good Prince, good Councellors, good Iudges. &c. and yet I thinke it were moste pernicious to haue those offices com∣mitted to the election of the people.

But what néede I stryue with you in this matter? For if those things that be concluded by Parliament, be by the consent of the moste parte of the Realme, bicause the peoples consent is there in their knightes of their shires, and other Burgeses (as in déede it is, whiche you also confesse) then haue you no more to saye in this matter: for the booke of ordering Ministers and Deacons. &c. is allowed and graunted by Parliament, and therefore the Bishops and Ministers of this Churche of England are chosen by the consent of the people, nay (which is more) of the whole Realme, bicause they are ordeyned and chosen according to that order and rule, whiche the whole realme in Parliament hath made and bounde them selues vnto.

But (by the way) if this grounde of lawe be good in that sense that you alleage it, and be transferred to the ciuill state, it will be founde very daungerous, and tootoo muche sauouring of popularitie: as in déede the whole course of your doctrine is.

Chapter. 5. the. 2. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 1.

So is it also when the question is to choose the Magistrate, Mayre, or Bayliffe, or Consta∣ble of euery towne, whiche things if they haue groundes in ciuill affayres, they haue muche better in Ecclesiasticall. For it is muche more vnreasonable, that there shoulde be thrust vpon me, a go∣uernour, of whome the euerlasting saluation or damnation bothe of my body and soule dothe de∣pende, than him of whome my wealth and commoditie of this lyfe dothe hang. Unlesse those vpon whome he were thrust, were fooles, or madde men, or children, without all discretion of ordering themselues, whiche as I will shewe, can not agree with those, that are the Churche of God, and are to haue a Pastor. For they of the Churche of God, althoughe they be called sheepe in respect of their simplicitie and harmlesnesse, yet are they also for their circumspection wise as serpentes, in the wisedome, especially whiche is to saluation: and howe (a) 1.4 vyle accompte soeuer you will make of them, they are the people of God, and therefore spirituall, and foorthwith those of whome sainct* 1.5 Paule sayth, the spirituall man discerneth all things.

Io. Whitgifte.

The disorder of suche popular elections hathe bin suche, the contentions moued* 1.6 in them so great, the ambition of the persons standing in election so notorious, the partiall affection of the people inclining to their kinsfolkes, friendes, or landlords. &c. so vntollerable, to be short, the lacke of iudgement & discretion in many of them so ap∣parant, that that maner of electing vpon great cōsiderations hath bin altred in diuers places, & desired to be altered in others also, by al those that are wise & discrete, & that wishe for quietnesse & good gouernment. Neither is it true, that the election of those officers which you name, is euery where in the people. In the best ordered Cities

and townes it is otherwise: and experience dothe teache, that those offices whiche are in the Princes bestowing, and some other to whome she committeth the same, are the best bestowed, and vpon the moste worthyest persons, as Bishoprikes, the offices of Iudges, Iustices. &c.

In ecclesiasticall affayres, it is muche méeter, that suche as haue knowledge, zeale, and care for the people, shoulde place ouer them a méete and fitte Pastor, than that the choyse of him should be committed to the multitude, whiche is not onely for the moste parte ignorant, but carelesse in suche matters, yea and oftentimes euill dis∣posed, and commonly led by affection, as friendship, hatred, feare. &c.

I knowe that Christian men are not called sheepe bycause they be voyde of rea∣son:* 1.7 For as Chrysostome saythe, Oues sunt, sed rationales, They are sheepe, but suche as are indued with reason. And god dothe at one tyme or other (if they be his) open hys truthe vnto them, and indueth them with the spirite of discerning betwixte true and false doctrine, in those things that doe pertayne to their saluation. But bicause God dothe in his good time open his truthe vnto them, are they therfore alwayes voyde of affection and errour? or bicause some haue this spirite of discretion, is it therefore common to all, or to the moste parte? In déede if you speake of the inuisible Church, which is onely of the electe, then is it something that you say: but if you speake of the visible Churche, whiche is a mixture of good and euill, and wherein the euill are the greater number, then hath your saying no probabilitie in it. And why may not the Pope as well reason of this place. 1. Cor. 2. that he can not erre in matters of reli∣gion,* 1.8 as you may, that Parishes can not be deceyued in electing their pastors? for he dothe alleage this texte for himselfe to the same purpose: but the meaning of the Apostle is this: that he onely whiche is ruled and gouerned by the spirite of God, hath the true knowledge of the mysteries of God, and is able to discerne the truthe from falshood. You can no more proue therefore, by this sentence, that the Parishes can not erre in choosing their Pastors, than the Pope may doe that himselfe, generall Councels, and the Churche can not erre: and surely the more I consider the matter, the more I maruell what your meaning is in alleaging this texts.

Chapter. 5. the. 3. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 2.

Moreouer, reason and experience teacheth, that it maketh much to the profiting of the Church vnder the hande of the Pastor or Bishop, that the Churche loue him and reuerence him. For the contempte and hatred of the minister for the moste parte, standeth not in his owne person, but rea∣cheth euen vnto the doctrine which he teacheth. But the Minister that the Churche desireth, it commonly best loueth and moste reuerenceth, and of the other side, hateth and contemneth him, that is thrust vpon them, therefore it maketh muche to the profiting of the people in the doctrine of the Gospell, that the minister come in, by their consent. Likewise, the people muste by S. Paule hys* 1.9 rule, followe the good example of the Minister: but men wyll not likely followe their examples, whome they loue not, nor loue them, which are thrust vpon them agaynst their willes. Therefore it standeth with the good conuersation and godly following of the steppes of the minister, that he be with the consent of the Churche.

Io. Whitgifte.

This reason is buylded vpon a false grounde: for it is certaine that many pastors* 1.10 are dearely beloued of their flockes, whiche neither were elected by them, desired of them, nor knowne vnto them before. And I thinke verily that there is not one parish in England which doth the worse loue or reuerence their pastors in that respecte, excepts such only as you and your adherents haue inflamed, not only with the spirite of dis∣corde, but of disdayne, and contempt also towards all lawes, orders, and persons, that be not in all poyntes framed according to their imaginations. But would you that a Papistical parish (suche as there may be diuers in England) should choose their Pastor, that they might loue him? Surely then would they not choose a Protestant. Or do men alwayes continue in louing of those, whom they haue chosen? You know that experience teacheth the contrary: so long only do they loue him, as he pleaseth

them, and serueth their affections, whiche bycause he neither can nor ought to doe, therefore their affection of loue is soone quenched: and they beginne to hate and to contemne hym, and the rather bycause they did choose him. For in that respecte they thinke him more bound to please them.

Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 3.

And if it should happen (which may come to passe) that any Church should desire or choose, or consente vpon by the moste parte, some that is vnmeete, eyther for doctrine or manners, then the ministers & Elders of the other Churches round about, should aduertise first, and afterwarde as* 1.11 occasion shoulde serue, sharpely and seuerely charge, that they forbeare suche election, or if it be made, that they confirme it not, by suffering him to exercise any ministerie. And if eyther the Chur∣ches rounde about do fayle of this duetie, or the Churche whiche is admonished rest not in theyr admonition, then to bring it to the next Synode, and if it rest not therin, then the Prince or Ma∣gistrate, whiche muste see that nothyng in the churches be disorderly and wickedly done, ought to driue that Churche from that election to an other which is conuenient. Now I will examine the reasons whiche you adde to proue, that althoughe in times paste the churche choosed theyr mi∣nisters, yet now it must be otherwyse.

Io. Whitgifte.

What scripture haue you to proue, that if the Parishes shoulde choose an vnmeete* 1.12 minister, then the ministers and elders of other Churches should take in hande the matter &c. and if they wyll not, then to bring it to the nexte Synode: if that wyll not serue, then that the Prince or Magistrate must and ought to driue that Churche from that election, to an o∣ther more conuenient? Where haue you I say, either commaundement, or example of any suche order in the whole scripture? will you of your owne head and brayne take vpon you to prescribe a rule besides all Scripture? And dare you so boldly condemne an order taken by the common consent of so great a Churche as thys of Englande is, bycause it is not in all poyntes correspondent to some examples in the scripture? Men may sée if they be not blynde, what your meaning is. You thinke peraduenture that if this were once brought to passe, it should not be long or you were placed somewhere, according to your desyre. The like pollicie and practise hath bin vsed by others: looke Zuinglius in his Ecclesi.

But to come to a néerer examination of this your deuise: First, you haue forgotten* 1.13 yourselfe, for a little before you proued by that which S. Paul sayth. 1. Cor. 2. Spiritu∣lis omnia dijudicat: he that is spirituall discerneth all thyngs. &c. That they were spiri∣tuall,* 1.14 and therefore coulde not be without discretion of ordering them selues in choo∣sing their pastor: and nowe you say, if any churche shoulde by the most part choose some vn∣meet man. &c. Whereby you confessr that they maye be deceyued, contrarie to your former wordes.

Secondly, your order is most vnperfitte, & full of intollerable inconueniences: for* 1.15 who shall complaine of this election to other Churches? And when cōplaint is made, who shall call them togither? when they be called togither, what order shal be taken for the auoyding of confusion & tumult? or who shal beare their charges? or in what place shal they méete, or how often? Likewise If the churches round about do faile in this duetie. &c. who shall bring it to the next Synode? or who shall summon the Synode? or in what place shal it be kept? or at what stay shall the parishes be for a pastor, vntill the matter be determined? or who shal complaine to y^e Prince and magistrate? or what if the Prince will not driue them to a new election, but allow of the olde? Do you not sée of what disorder, contentions, tumults, & inconueniences this your disordered order would be the cause? For how many méetings of Churches should we haue? how many Sy∣nodes? what parts takyng? what running vp and downe? what losse of time? what cause of offence? what quarels? yea what not?

But amongst al other things you haue here appoynted to y^e Prince or magistrate* 1.16 a good office, that he must stand and behold al this, and in the end only driue the parish to a newe election, which also you say that he must doe. Throughout your whole booke you take from the ciuil Magistrate his whole authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters, & giue

vnto him no more, (as I haue before declared) than the very Papistes doe, that is potestatem facti, and not potestatem iuris. For he muste onely at your commaundement execute suche lawes and orders as you and your Seniors haue deuised. Agayne, con∣sidering the great number of Parishes in this realme, the varietie of mens myndes, the diuersitie of opinions in Religion, and the generall inclination in the heartes of men to dissent and disagrée among them selues, it can not be, but that in shorte space the Prince shoulde be ouerpressed and surcharged with the composing and ordering of these confused and tumultuous elections: so that she muste be constrayned to let passe the care of the gouernment of the common wealthe, and be wholly troubled with hearing and redressing these matters. Wherefore to conclude, if you haue no better reasons for your popular elections than these, I thinke it will be long before you can persuade any reasonable or wyse man, to subscribe vnto it. But nowe to the defense of my owne reasons.

Notes

• * 1.1

  The first rea∣son examined.
• * 1.2

  This law can not take holde in the election of ministers.
• * 1.3

  The lawe as mitteth excep∣tions.
• (a) 1.4

  No man 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉∣keth vi〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e a〈1 line〉〈1 line〉oūt of the people of God: but you partly of 〈◊〉〈◊〉, partly of popular affection, would haue it seeme so, thereby to 〈◊〉〈◊〉 hatred agaynst vs.
• * 1.5

  1. Cor. 2.
• * 1.6

  Elections by the multitu••e are for y^e most parte tumul∣tuous.
• * 1.7

  Christiā men 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉eepe.
• * 1.8

  Scripture vn aptly alleaged by T. C.
• * 1.9

  1. Tim. 4.
• * 1.10

  The seconde reason exa∣mined.
• * 1.11

  Where find 〈◊〉〈◊〉 this maner and forme in the 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• * 1.12

  T. C. in pre∣tending scrip∣ture, bringeth in that which hath no war∣rante in scrip∣ture.
• * 1.13

  T. C. contra∣rie to himself.
• * 1.14

  Pag. 33. Sect. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉.
• * 1.15

  The order which. T. C. prescribeth vn perfecte, & full of inconueni∣ences.
• * 1.16

  The Princes authoritie di∣minished, and hir troubles encreased.