The defense of the aunsvvere to the Admonition against the replie of T.C. By Iohn VVhitgift Doctor of Diuinitie. In the beginning are added these. 4. tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the replie. 2 Of falsifications and vntruthes. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table generall.

Of the triall of Ministers both in learnyng and conuersation.

Chap. 1. the first diuision.

Admonition.

The first is this. For whereas in the olde Church atrial was had(l) 1.1 both of their abilitie to enstruct, and of their godly conuersation also: nowe by the letters commendatorie of some one man, noble or other, tag and rag, learned and vnlearned, of the basest(m) 1.2 sorte of the people (to the slaunder of the Gospell in the(n) 1.3 mouthes of the aduersaries) are freely receiued.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Page. 36.

It it true that in the olde Church tryall was had of their abilitie to instruct, and of their godly conuersation. But the place in the mar∣gent alleaged out of the firste Chapter of the Actes of the Apostles maketh nothing for that purpose: beyng therein no mention at all of any tryall made eyther of learning or maners, but onely of presenting two, and of praying and casting of lottes: And M. Clauine in his In∣stitutions sayth plainely, that out of this place of the Actes and ex∣ample, there can be no certaine rule gathered of electing and chosing Ministers, for as that ministerie was extraordinarie, so was the calling also. Reade M. Caluine and you shall soone see how little this place, so ofte in the margent quoted, maketh for that purpose for the which it is quoted.

T. C. Pag. 23. Sect. 4. 5. & Pag. 24. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4.

It maketh for the purpose which is alleaged out of the firste of the Actes, to proue, that there ought to be tryall of those which are chofen to the ministerie: for when S. Peter sayth, that such a one must be chosen as hath bene continually conuersant with our sauiour Christ, and from the be∣ginning of his preaching vntill the day wherin he ascended into heauen, he ment nothing(a) 1.4 else, but that such a one should be chosen, which was sufficiently instructed, and had bene continually a schol∣ler of our sauiour Christ, and therefore fit to teache and to witnesse that, which they had seene, and whose godly conuersation was notorionsly knowne.

Besides that, albeit those two Mathias and Barsabas were therfore set vp in the middest, that the Church in the prayer that was made for their election, might by seing them, pray the earnestlyer for them: yet it was also as much to say, that if any coulde obiect any thing against them, that he should preferre his obiection.

And whether they were examined or 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉s, the matter is not great, neyther when it is sayd that a tryall shoulde be had, it is ment, that when the parties are famously knowne to those which haue the right of election, that there shoulde be alwayes necessarily an apposing and examining, so that the sufficiencie of doctrine and holynesse of life (for the which cause the tryall and examination is commaunded) be knowne and agreed vpon by them, that chose, it is enough.

And so these two beyng notoriously knowen and consented of by the Churche, to be fitte men, myght happely not be examyned, but yet the wordes of Saynt Peter declare plainely, that in the choyse of them, there was regarde had to both, their abilitie to teache, and honestie of conuersation.

And althoughe there be certaine things extraordinarie in thys election,(b) 1.5 as that suche a one must be chosen which had been conuersant wyth our sauiour Christ, and that there were two put vp for one place, and that it was permitted to lottes, to cast the Apostleship vpon one of them two, as if the Lorde shoulde by the lottes from heauen, tell, who shoulde haue it: yet it followeth not to saye, that the reste of the things that are there vsed, should not be practised in ordinarie callings, for as much they will well agree with them.

And Maister Caluine in the place you alleage saythe, that the ordinarie callings somewhat differ from the calling of the Apostles, and after sheweth wherein: that is, in that they were ap∣poynted immediatly of God, and by hys mouthe: whereby it appeareth, that for the residue of those things whych are there mentioned, he holdeth that they may well stande wyth the ordinarye elec∣tions.

Io. Whitgifte.

This Replie standeth all by coniectures: it is certayne that there was no triall had of them, bicause they were sufficiently knowne, and therefore the texte with∣out discretion alleaged, to proue that there oughte to be a tryall of theyr abilitie to instruct &c. If it had bene quoted to proue that suche as were admitted into the function, were méete for the same, bothe sor their lyfe and doctrine, it had bene to some pur∣pose. I thynke it necessarye that suche as bée admitted into the ministerie (vn∣lesse they bée verye well knowne) shoulde be tryed, bothe in learning, and lyfe, but this place maketh nothing at all for that purpose, but rather contrarie, for it spea∣keth of suche two as were well knowne, and therefore néeded no tryall: so that if wée conclude any thyng of that place, it muste bée this, that none oughte to bée admitted into the ministerie, but suche as be well knowne, and néede no tryall.

There was no other cause of presentyng them, than that whyche is expres∣sed in the texte, and it is presumption to make the Scripture serue to maynteyn oure contentions, agaynste the expresse woords and playn meaning.

If thys be a rule to be followed, it muste be followed wholly: for where haue you learned to adde, or take from any lawe or rule prescribed in Gods woorde? or howe doe ye knowe that this example must be followed in one thing, and not in an other? what speciall reuelation haue you to make any suche dismembring of this action? No doubte thys example is extraordinarie, and not of necessitie to bée fol∣lowed.

The woordes of M. Caluine are playne, that there can be no certaine rule gathered of this example, for the electing of ministers, bicause the calling of the Apostles doth some∣thing differ from the calling of other ministers.

Chap. 1. the second Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 36.

In the sixt of the Actes mention is made of Deacons only, whom you will not allowe to be ministers of the worde, and therfore this place serueth not your tourne, neyther is there any thing spoken of any tryall, but only they are willed to looke out among them, sea∣uen men of honest report, and full of the holie Ghost, and wisdome to be appoynted Deacons.

T. C. Page. 24. Sect. 5.

And where you saye that the sixte of the Actes, bycause it speaketh of Deacons is nothyng to the mater, me thynke you shoulde haue easily vnderstanded, that if a tryall bee necessarie in Deacons (whiche is an vnder office in the Churche, and hathe regarde but to one parte of the Churche, whyche is the poore, and is occupied in the distribution of money) muche more it ought to be in an office of greater charge, whiche hath respect to the whole Churche, and is occupied in the dispensyug of the holy worde of God.

Io. Whitgifte.

That there shoulde be a tryall of suche as are to be admitted to the ministerie, I thinke it moste conuenient (as I tolde you before) excepte the parties be sufficiently known to such as haue authoritie to admit them: but I say that this place of the Acts dothe not proue it, both bicause the office of a Deacon (by their opinion) is altogether distinct from the office of a minister of the woord, the one perteyning to the body, the other to the soule, the one occupied aboute moneye, the other in the woorde, and al∣so,

for that there is in that place no mention made of any triall. That place rather proueth that whyche before was noted A〈1 line〉〈1 line〉t. 1. that suche onely shoulde be appoyn∣ted to that office, as bée knowne by good experience to be fitte for suche a function.

Tell me one worde in that texte that signifieth any such tryall as the Admonition speaketh of. Therfore I say againe as I sayd before, that suche as be well knowne, néede no farther tryall: as both that example Act. 1. and this also Act. 6. manifestly de∣clareth.

Chap. 1. the third Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 36. Sect. 1.

The rule of Saincte Paule in the. 1. Timo. 3. and Tit. 1. is to bee* 1.6 folowed. And the booke of ordring ministers and deacons, set forth and allowed by this Church of England requireth, that whosoeuer is to be admitted into the order of the ministerie, should so be tried, examined, and proued both for learning and life, as S. Paule there requireth. Reade the booke with indifferencie and iudgement, and thou canst not but greatly commend it. If any man neglect his du∣tie in that point, his fault must not be ascribed to the rule appointed, neither yet to the whole Church. Is the law euill, bicause some law∣yers* 1.7 in their office swarue frō it? This is fallation à nō causa ad causā.

T. C. Pag. 24 Sect. 6.

But in the ende you agree that they should be tryed, so that nowe the question standeth only howe and by what meanes: wherin you for your part say, that the booke of ordering ministers is a sufficient and good rule. I haue read it, and yet I can not commende it greately. But you will say not with indgement, or iudifferencie. I will promise you with this indifferencie, that I wished, that all that is there, were good and conuenient, and such as I might saye vnto, so bee it. With what iudgement I doe disallowe it, I leaue it to all men to esteeme vpon these reasons.

Io. Whitgifte.

The question is not whether you allowe, or disallowe that booke, neither is it materiall whether you doe or not. Your reasons vsed against it, I will seuerally, for memorie sake examine.

Chap. 1. the fourth Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 24. Sect. 7. 8. 9.

Fyrst, that the examination of hys doctrine, wholly, and partely of hys lyfe, is permitted to* 1.8 one man. For consyderyng of the one parte the greatnesse of the charge that is committed vnto the ministers, and the horrible pe〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ill that commeth vnto the Church by the want of those things that are required in them, and of the other parte weighyng the weaknesse of the nature of man, whyche although he seeth many things, yet is he blynd also in many, and that euen in those things whiche he seeth, he suffereth himselfe to be caryed away by his affection of loue, or of enuie. &c. I saye, consydering these things, it is verye daungerous to committe that to the vewe and search of one man, whyche maye with lesse danger and more safetie be referred vnto dyuers. For here∣in* 1.9 the prouerbe is true, Plus vident oculi quam oculus.

And almoste there is no office of charge in this realme whych lyeth in election, committed so 〈◊〉〈◊〉 to any, as that vpon one mannes reporte of hys habilitie, all the rest whych haue interest in the election, will giue their voyces, so that if we were destitute of authoritie of the scrip∣ture, the verie lyghte of reason woulde shewe vs a more safe and waryer way.

But there is greater authoritie, for S. Luke in the fyrst of the Actes sheweth that Sainc〈1 line〉〈1 line〉e Peter woulde not take vpon him to presente two, as fitte for the place whiche was voyde, but sayth, they did present or set vp: wherby appeareth, that the examinatiō of their abilitie was comit∣ted to many. The same apeareth also in the. 6. of the Acts, when as the Apostles will y^e Church wherin there wer〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 so excellent personages, to loke out seuen full of the holy ghost & wisedome. &c.

They doe not there permitte the discernyng of theyr wysedome and other gyftes to one, but to manye.

Io. Whitgifte

Youre fyrste reason is partely grounded 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ppon bare coniectures, or rather* 1.10 common suppositions, that maye be supposed in the moste perfecte gouernment, partely vppon the place Acto. 1. eyther not vnderstoode, or wyllingly miscon〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ru∣ed, nothyng perteyning to the purpose. But fyrste it is vntrue, that the exa〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ina∣tion, eyther of doctrine, or lyfe, is in thys Churche wholly committed to one man: For the Booke committeth the examination of suche as are to bée admitted into the mini∣sterie, not onely to the Byshop, but to the Archedeacon also: to the Bishoppe in the begynnyng of the Beoke by playne and expresse woordes: to the Arched〈1 line〉〈1 line〉a∣con, bycause he muste presente them vnto the Bishoppe of hys knowledge, whi∣che he ran not doe truely, withoute diligente examination. But admitte it bée so, that the examination is committed to one man onely: what then? For soothe consyderyng on the one parte the greatnesse of the charge. &c. and of the other parte the wea∣kenesse of the nature of man. &c. it is more daungerous to committe that to the vewe of one man. &c. If you respecte the greatenesse of the charge that is committed to mi∣nistsrs.* 1.11 &c. Who is better able to consyder thereof than the Byshoppe, whyche bothe knoweth what suche a charge meaneth, and hathe hadde hymselfe long experience thereof: To whome also dyuerse seuerall charges doe, apperteyn, for the whyche it behoueth hym to foresée, that there bée méete ministers? If you speake of blynde affections, as loue, enuie. &c. who maye bée supposed to bée more voyde of them, than hée that is called to suche an hyghe office in the Chur∣che, that is so well instructed in the Scriptures, of so long tyme knowne bothe for hys lyfe, learnyng, Religion, and wysedome, méete to haue that credite com∣mytted vnto hym? Surely if anye one man, or moe, bée voyde of suche af∣fections, and bée thoughte méete to haue suche matters commytted vnto hym, it is the Byshoppe: And if hée bée méete and woorthye for that place and of∣fyce, then maye he also bée safely credyted, wyth all thynges incidente vnto the same.

But what haue you here sayde agaynste one man, in thys case, that may〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 not bée lykewyse sayde of an other man, in all other lyke cases? agaynste one Kyng, one Iudge: yea agaynste manie, euen the whole multitude, in whome not onely lacke of knoweledge and discretion in suche matters, but greate a∣bundaunce of affections, of wrathe, of hatred, of loue, of feare, of contention, &c. for the moste parte reygneth, as experience of all tymes and places declareth? But of thys matter occasion will be ministred to speake more hereafter.

The prouerbe, Plus vident oculi quam oculus, Manie eyes see more than one, is not alwayes, nor in all cases true: one man of wysedome, experience, learnyng, and discretion, maye sée more, knowe more, and iudge better in those thynges that hée can skyll of, than ten thousande other that bée ignorant, or that in such mat∣ters bée farre inferiour vnto him.

You saye, that almoste the〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 is no office of charge in thys Realme. &c. whyche is not so, for the offices of greatest importaunce and charge in the whole Realme, both〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 in the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill state, are in the onely Election of the Prince, and they bée beste bestowed and vppon the méetest and woorthyest persones. Those offices that bée commytted to the v〈1 line〉〈1 line〉yces of manie, eyther are bestowed of custome, or at the entreatie of some in authoritie, or by extreame suite and la∣boure made by some parties, or else is there greate contention stirred vp aboute them by some busie bodies. And in déede when are there more vnwoorthye men chosen to offices, when is there more stryfe and contention aboute elections, when doe partiall and sinister affections more vtter themselues, than when an election is committed to manie?

And where as you say, that vpon one mannes reporte all the rest whyche haue interest in the election, woulde not gyue theyr voyces so sieyghtly to any: Experience teacheth you cleane contrarie: for doe you not sée that in all suche Elections, for the moste parte, some one man ruleth the reste? Moreouer, where is the requeste of suche as bée in authoritie for any denyed in suche elections? I coulde bring you a number of examples.

If the Election of the minister shoulde bée commytted to euery seuerall Pa∣rish, doe you thynke that they woulde choose the méetest? shoulde not the Lorde of the towne or some other among them of countenaunce leade them as he liste? woulde they haue no respecte to theyr neyghboures chyldren, thoughe not the mée∣test? wōulde there be no contention among them? would they not haue lyke peo∣ple, lyke Pastoure? But of thys also more muste bée spoken in an other place.

That in the fyrste of the Actes, is nothyng for youre purpose, for there is no order of Election prescribed, but an extraordinarie callyng to an extraordina∣rie office, as I haue sayde before. Neyther dydde the multitude presente them, but onely the Apostles, as M. Beza sayeth, Lib. conf. cap. 5. titu. 35. Neyther were they examyned, as is also declared: and therefore that place altogether imper∣tinent.

To that in the sixte of the Actes I haue answered sufficientely: it proueth not examination. And M. Beza in the aforenamed booke and Chapter sayeth plain∣ly, that Luke hathe not sette downe what the Churche did obserue in the election of Deacons: and shortely after concludeth thus: Certam igitur regulam, non est quòd nimiùm curiosè quisquam hic praescribae, sed si recta fuerit conscientia facilè fuerit pro tempo∣rum* 1.12 & locorum circumstantia definire quid expediat, Therefore there is no cause why a∣nye man shoulde here ouer-curiously prescribe anye certayne rule: But if the consci∣ence be vpryght, it may be easy to determine, what is conuenient for the circumstance of tyme and place. And these woordes he speaketh of that place of the Actes. But I* 1.13 praye you answere mée this one question: if you will make these two places Act. 1 & Act. 6. rules whiche wée muste of necessitie follow in electing of ministers: howe will you ioyne them together béeyng in nothyng lyke? for Acto. 1. the Apostles presented two to the people, Acto. 6. The whole multitude did present seuen to the Apostles: Acto. 1. they caste lottes, Acto. 6. they layde on handes: Acto. 1. they prayed to God to shewe whether of the two he had chosen, Acto. 6. there is no suche thyng: Acto. 1. of two that were presented one was chosen, Acto. 6. all were chosen that were presented: so that there is great difference in the two places, and therefore no prescript rules for vs to follow.

Chap. 1. the fy fte Diuision.

T. C. Page. 24. Sect. vlt.

Secondaryly, I can not commende it, for that, that one man is the Archedeacon, whiche muste examine the Pastors, and iudge of their sufficiencie. For what is the Archdeacon? is he not a Deacon? for he beyng the chiefe Deacon, muste needes be also a Deacon himself. And ther∣fore although the chiefe Deacon, yet inferiour to any of the Pastours: and the *gyfts whych are* 1.14 requyred in him, inferioure to those whiche are required in the Pastour, and so to make hym iudge of the aptnesse and ablenes of the Pastor, is to make the inferiour in giftes, iudge of the superiour: he that hathe by his calling lesse gyftes, iudge of his which hath by his calling grea∣te〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 gifts, which is nothyng else, than to appoynte hym that hath but one eye, to ouersee his syght, that hath two.

Io. Whitgifte.

You will not stand in this reason I think, when you haue somthing better remē∣bred* 1.15 your self: wil you not haue the Archdeacon, bicause he is but a deacon, examine the Pa∣stors, and iudge of thier sufficiencie? do you think y^t bicause he is inferior to y^e pastors, & the gifts

requyred in hym inferioure to those whyche are required of the Pastours▪ therefore hée is not méete to examine the Pastor, and to iudge of his aptnesse? What greater argu∣ment can be vsed agaynst your selfe? for if this be true, how can the people examine the pastors, or iudge of their aptnesse, being farre inferiour to Deacons, in respecte of their office, and in giftes not lyke vnto them? or howe can you admitte your Se∣niors to the examination or allowing of them, not onely béeing inferiour in office and calling, but in giftes also? yea the moste of them rude and ignorant, for suche Seniors you must of necessitie haue, if you wil haue any. Surely I maruel that you haue so much forgotten your selfe. A Deacon is superiour to the people, yea to youre Seniors (though you denie it) and mo giftes required in him than in both the other. 1. Tim. 3. Wherefore if he be not méete to examine pastors, and iudge of their sufficiencie, bi∣cause that were to make the inferior in giftes to iudge of the superior. &c. much lesse are the peo∣ple and your Seniors able to be examiners and iudges in that matter.

Furthermore, if none must examine and iudge of the Pastor, but suche as be su∣perior, or at the least equall vnto him, and suche in whom moe or as many giftes are required, then truly I sée not to whom this office may more orderly or safely be com∣mitted than to the Bishop, who is superiour to the Pastour, bothe in office and also in giftes.

It is not true that the booke committeth the examination of ministers onely to the Archdeacons, or especially: it is otherwise in the beginning of the booke in plaine words. Your reason wherby you would proue an Archdeacon to be only a deacon, is no reason at all: for what sequele is there in this argument, an Archdeacon is the chief deacon, Ergo he is only a Deacon? as thoughe you were ignorant of the state of oure Church, and knew not that Archdeacons may be also ministers of the worde.

Chap. 1. the sixt Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 25. Sect. 1.

Thirdly, I mislyke the booke, bicause it permitteth, y^e the Bishop may admit the minister vpon the credit & report of the Archdeacon, and vpon his examination, if ther be no opposition of the peo∣ple: which appereth by these words in the booke, wheras to the Archdeacon saying thus: Reuerend father in God, I present vnto you these persons to be admitted to be Priests. &c. The bishop answe∣reth. Take heed that y^e persons whom you present vnto vs, be apt & meet for their godly cōuersation to exercise their ministerie duly to the honor of God & edifying of his church. And thervpō I think it commeth that the Archdeacon is called the eye of the bishop. But why doth not he himselfe take heed vnto it? with what conscience can he admit a minister, of whose fitnesse he knoweth not, but v∣pon the credite of an other, although he were otherwise very fitte? where can he haue that ful per∣suasion that he doth well, vpon the report of others, when the reporte of his lyfe and learnyng▪ is made but of one. And therefore * 1.16Sainct Paule ordeyned, that the same shoulde be the ordey∣ners, and the examiners, and not to hang vpon the fayth or report of an other man, in thyngs that are so weyghtie, and wherof he may himselfe take notice.

Io. Whitgifte.

This reason thoughe it differ in some circumstances, yet in effecte it is all one wyth the seconde, for it is agaynste the examination of the Archedacon, and so was that. But youre argumente is not sounde: for dothe the Bishoppe therefore admitte Ministers onely vppon the credite, and at the reporte of the Arche∣deacon, bycause the Archedeacon presenteth them vnto hym? you knowe that none is admitted to anye degrée here in Cambridge, but the same is first presented to the Uicechancelor, & to the Uniuersitie, by some one of that facultie, who giueth his fidelitie for them: doth the Uniuersitie therfore admitte them onely vppon the credite and reporte of that one man? You knowe the contrarie: euen so it is here: The Archdeacon presenteth to the Bishoppe, the Bishoppe dothe inquyre if hée hath diligently examyned them. &c. dothe he therfore thinke you, not examine them

him selfe? I haue knowne Bishops reiecte those whome their Archdeacons haue al∣lowed.

If any Bishop doe giue that credite to his Archdeacon, he dothe more than I woulde wishe he shoulde doe, and otherwyse than the booke requireth of him: ney∣ther muste his example doone without the booke, preiudice that whiche is well ap∣poynted in the booke.

Paule. 1. Ti. 3. declareth what qualities and conditions a 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ishop ought to haue: but can you gather of any thing there written, that the same should be the ordeyners and examiners? it is moste meete it should so be I graunte, but yet woulde I not haue the Scriptures made ship menn〈1 line〉〈1 line〉s hose, to serue our tournes as it pleaseth vs to tourne them, least wée fall into that faulte oure selues, whiche wée iustly reproue in the Papistes.

But stil you are contrarie to your self, for if the same must be the ordeyners & the exami∣ners,* 1.17 then muste the Bishops of necessitie be the examiners, for you can not denie but that the Bishoppes muste be the ordeyners. And if you will haue. 1. Ti. 3. to serue your purpose, then must you of force confesse it, for there Saincte Paule writeth to Ti∣mothie béeing a Bishop, and but one man, so that this reason is directely agay〈1 line〉〈1 line〉st the firste.

Chap. 1. the seuenth Diuision.

T. C. Page. 25. Sect. 2.

Fourthly, for that albei〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 the Churche is demaunded whether they haue any thing to obiecte, yet that Churche whereof he is to be Pastor, and whiche it skilleth especially that he bee fitte, is not demaunded, and whiche woulde (bycause it standeth them vpon) inquire diligently of him.

Io. Whitgifte.

And howe would you haue that Churche wherof he is to be Pastor demaunded whether* 1.18 they haue any thing to obiect against him? would you haue euery one that is to be mini∣ster, first goe and dwell among them, that they might haue triall of him? In déed so did Mathias, and Barsabas among the Apostles, and the seuen among them, by whome they were chosen Deacons. But howe long shall he then remayne among them? for it had néede be a good tyme, else shall they not throughly knowe him, nor then neyther, for he maye playe the hypocrite. But who shall in the meane tyme beare his charges there and fynde him? for a number of parishes in Englande be not able sufficiently to fynd one, muche lesse moe: Or howe shall they haue any tryall of his doctrine, learning and habilitie to preache, séeing that he maye not publikely eyther teach or exhorte, bicause he is not yet called to the ministerie?

Surely I vnderstand not how your deuise coulde be well brought to passe, except you will make in euery parishe an vniuersitie, or some schoole of Diuinitie, or Col∣ledge of learning, as in déede they had in moste great Cities of the old Church, where the election of ministers was committed to manye: or excepte you imagine, that some suche maye be dwelling, and continuing in euery Parishe, as by inspiration or some other extraordinarie meanes may be made able to be their Pastor, when the place shall be voyde.

But tell me this one thing: woulde you haue him that is to bée chos〈1 line〉〈1 line〉n their Pa∣stor, remayne among them, they hauing yet a Pastor? or come vnto them after the death or departure of their Pastor, as the seconde Admonition woulde haue it Folio. 14? if the fyrste: then muste the Parishe bée double burdened, that is, they muste finde bothe him that is, and him also that shall be their pastor: moreouer it is vncertaine how long he must remaine with them, expecting the death or depar∣ture of the other: Likewise how he shall in the meane time occupy himselfe. &c. If the second: then must they of long time be destitute of a Pastor, for they cannot haue sufficient triall of him, excepte also sufficient time be graunted vnto them to

trie him in, which cannot be lesse than one whole yeare at the least.

But admitte all these impossibilities and great absurdities, to be possible and con∣uenient: yet are there further doubtes, what if the parish be wholly or the most parte simple, ignorant, and vnlearned men not able to iudge? what if they be all or the most part corrupt in religion? what if they be such, as can be better content with one that will winke at their faultes, than with him that will reproue them? what if they be such, as wil be ouerruled with some one, whome they dare not displease? To be short, what if they cannot agrée among themselues, vpon some one, but be diuided i〈1 line〉〈1 line〉to fa∣ctions. &c? All these things being considered, you shall find it the fittest, and best way, that the Byshop, euen according to the forme prescribed in the booke, haue authoritie to admitte and allow of suche as are to be ministers. Would you haue him that is brought vp in the vniuersitie, and well knowne in all respects to be meete for the mi∣nisterie, to whome also a cure in some place of Westmerland is to be committed, to be kept from the same, bycause he is vnknowne vnto them? Let other men thinke of your de〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ises as they list, in my iudgement they be méere phansies & fond dreames, grounded neither vpon the word of God, neyther yet of any other good consideration. Sure I am that they are contrary to the practise of reformed Churches, and namely the Churches of Berne and Tygure. As M. Musculus reporteth in his common pla∣ces titu. de ministris verbi. And M. Bullinger. 1. Tim. 4.

Touching this supposition of yours, that none should be admitted into the ministerie ex∣cept* 1.19 the same haue some certayne cure committed vnto him, occasion will be giuen to speake in another place.

Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision.

T. C. Pag. 25. Sect. 3. 4.

Agayne, they are demaunded, which can obiect nothing of his insufficiencie, whome for the most parte they neuer see nor heard of before, as one that came of one day vnto the towne, and goeth a∣way the next.

Further, they haue no reasonable space giuen them, wherein they may inquire or hearken out of hys honest conuersation: and haue some experience of his soundnesse in teaching, and discretion and iudgement to rule his flocke. But if as soone as euer it be said, that those that are straungers to them shoulde obiect against them, no man stand foorth to oppose against them, foorthwith he is made a minister. And these are those things wherein I thinke the booke of ordering ministers faultie, touching the triall and examination of the ministers, which selfesame things, are likewise of the triall of the Deacon. And so you see, that besides the faultes of those that execute the law, that there be faultes in the lawes themselues, and therefore the cause is truly assigned, although you see it not.

Io. Whitgifte.

There is none that ought to be admitted by any Bishop, but such as haue dwelte and remained in his dioces a conuenient time: No time of admitting (except it be of some singular person whose habilitie is not doubted of) is appointed, but the same is before a sufficient time notifyed in the notablest places of the whole dioces, chiefly to this end and purpose, that there may be resorte thither by suche as haue any thing to obiect againste any that is to be admitted at that time into the ministerie: neyther ought any to be admitted except he bring a sufficient testimoniall of his good behaui∣oure from that place, where he hath had his abode: and therefore if they come not, it is a token that they haue nothing to say: or if they haue to obiect, and do not, the fault is in themselues, they may if they will.

I told you before, that he may not teach before he be therevnto admitted, nor rule a flocke before he haue one committed vnto him, and therefore of necessitie he must at the least be admitted into the ministerie of the worde, before they can giue any iudgement of him. So that in déede though you haue vsed many words, yet haue you in effect said little or nothing: and the slendernesse of your reasons against the booke, togither with the inconueni〈1 line〉〈1 line〉nces that must of necessitie follow, hath procured a great credite vnto it: and it still remayneth true, that I haue answered to the Admonition, that is, that the fau〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ts that be, are in the persons, not in the law.

Chap. 1. the. 9. Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 37. Lin. 1.

Agayne, if some be admitted into the ministerie, either void of lear∣ning, or lewde in life, are all the rest for their sake to be condemned? Or is this a good argumente, some be admitted into the ministerie without triall, therefore none is lawfully admitted into the mini∣sterie? or some ministers be vnlearned and euill, Ergo, there is none good? I thinke you wil not denie, but that there is now within this Church of England, as many learned, godly, graue, wise, and wor∣thy* 1.20 ministers of the word, as there is in any one realme or particu∣lar Church in all Christendome, or euer hath bin heretofore.

T. C. Page. 25. Sect. 5. 6. 7.

And what meane you, still to vse this fighting with your owne shadowe? for where are the words, or what be they that condemne all the ministers for some? that say all the ministers are vn∣lawfully admitted, for some? or that there is none good, bycause some are bad? If there be no suche words, as carrie with them any such sense, then you do wrong to your brethren. If there be words that declare the cleane contrary, then all men see what you be, which although you often faulte in, yet I am loth so often to name and charge you with it. When it is said, that learned and vnlearned are receiued, it is euident that they condemne not all.

The Lord blesse and increase an hundreth fold the godly, wise, learned, graue ministers of this Church, and bycause these words seeme to rocke vs asleepe, and to bring vs into forgetfulnesse of the great ruines and desolations of the Church, I must tell you that two thousand able and suffi∣cient ministers, which preach and feede diligently and carefully the flocke of Christ, were hard to be found in this Church, which haue bin notwithstanding found in the Church of France, by the estimation of those which know the estate, euen vnder the time of the crosse, where there were no such helps of Magistrates, and appoynted stipends, as God be praysed we haue.

And agayne, you are to be put in mind, that a great number of those were bredde in king Ed∣wards days, so that I feare me a man neede no great Arithmetike to count the numbers of suche able ministers, as the late yeares haue brought foorth. And yet I am well assured, that if the mi∣nisterie were reformed, and woorthy men were sought for, there are great numbers of zelous and learned men, that would lay their hands to serue this kind of building by the ministerie. For be∣sides numbers that the vniuersities would yeld, which sighe for the repairing of the decays of the Churche, to helpe forwarde so greate a worke, the Innes of Court, and other the Gentrie of the Realme, Galene, and Iustinian, would bring their tenthes, and (as it were) pay their shotte in this reckening.

Io. Whitgifte.

Their words be playne, for they say whereas in the old Churche a triall was had. &c. now by the letters commendatorie of some one man. &c. whereby they set this time as con∣trary vnto that, bycause some haue bin admitted without triall: and therefore make that fault generall, which is particular, and in very déede condemne all for some. If it were not so, why shoulde either they or you condemne the rule, and not the persons only? why should they say that we haue no right ministerie? why should the second Ad∣monition from the beginning to the end, so raile vpon all the states and degrées of ministers and preachers in this Church, which do not consent with them in distur∣bing the Church, and opposing themselues against lawfull orders and lawes. Looke Fol. 32. of the. 2. Admonition especially, and so foorth, where they speake in most vn∣christian maner. And though these mē in thys place say learned and vnlearned, yet doth it not follow that they condemne not all, of an vnlawfull calling, and of not being tried, and examined as well in life, as learning. But what néede you make such ado in clo∣king a matter to notorious? for what do either they or you, but deface euen the best learned, and wisest of such as withstand you: thinking none sufficiently learned, but yourselues and your adherents?

For the number of sufficient ministers in France, able to preach in the time of the crosse, I will not take vppon me to define any thing: yet haue I talked with some wise, god∣ly, and learned preachers of that countrie, such as had good cause to know the state of that Church touching that matter: and truly for any thing that I can learne of them, you haue ouershot your selfe in reckening at the least. 14. hundreth. But I am not

curious in matters not apperteyning vnto me, and I write but of credible reporte. God be thanked for the number that they had, or haue, howe many or howe fewe soeuer they are.

Touching the number of preachers throughout England, I cannot write any cer∣taintie, but of this Uniuersitie bycause I haue some experience, you shall giue me leaue to speake as earnestly in truly commending of it, as you haue done in vntruly and vnkindly defacing and slaundering it. The number of knowne preachers, which this vniuersitie hath bredde since the beginning of the Quéenes Maiesties reygne to this time of the yeare of our Lord Anno. 1573. are at the least. 450. besides those that haue bin called to that office after their departure from hēce, and are not yet knowne to me. The number of preachers that be now in this Uniuersitie remayning is. 102. and no doubt but God will encrease the number of them dayly more and more. Al∣though* 1.21 it must be confessed, that the factions and tumults which you and some others haue made in the Churche, do discourage a great number from the ministerie, cau∣seth many to contemne it, and thinke the calling to be vnlawfull, and therefore to ab∣steyne from it. Moreouer I know by experience, that some of you deuise and practise by all meanes possible, to styrre vp contention in this Uniuersitie, to disswade men from the ministerie, to bring such as be sober, wise, learned and godly preachers into contempt, and to make a confusion, and diuide euery Colledge within itselfe. But howsoeuer hitherto you haue preuayled (as you haue preuayled to much) yet I trust you shall neuer throughly bring to passe that which you desire. And I doubt not, but that your vnduetifull, vnciuill, and vncharitable dealing in this your booke, your ma∣ny errours and foule absurdities conteyned in the same, hath so detected you, that ho∣nest, discréete, quiet, and godly learned men will no more be withdrawen by you, and such as you are, to any such schisme or cōtention in the Church: but rather bend them selues against the common aduersarie, and séeke with hart and mouth to build vp the walles of Ierusalem, whiche you haue broken downe: and to fill vp the Mynes that you haue digged, by craft and subteltie to ouerthrow the same. And howsoeuer some will still be way wardly disposed, yet I doubt not, but that if such as be in authoritie will do their duties, they may by conuenient discipline, either be kept within the bonds of modestie, or else remoued from this place, wherein of all other places, they may do most harme.

For the Innes of Court what they would do I know not, howbeit I think very few haue gon from this place thither, whiche had euer any purpose in them, to enter into the ministerie. And surely from that place where I am, I haue not knowne any go to the Innes of Court, in whome there hathe appeared any kind of inclination to the ministerie. What store of fit preachers those Innes would yeld, if your Church were framed, I know not, but I thinke, that some of thē would not refuse the spoile of this. I doubt not but that there are many in the Innes of Courte well affected in religi∣on: God continue them and encrease the number of them, and giue them grace to take héede that they be not seduced by ouermuch credulitie in themselues, and pre∣tensed zeale in others.

What Galene and Iustinian would do, may be doubted, for, though both Galene and Iustinian haue forsaken our ministerie, yet do they kéepe such liuings as they had in the respect of the same, and are so farre from yelding of tenthes, that they can be well content to receiue tenthes.

Chap. 1. the tenth Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 37. Sect. 1.

Touching letters commendatorie of some one mannoble or other,* 1.22 it may be that the parties which giue these letters be of that zeale, learning, and godlinesse, that their particular testimonie ought to be better credited, than some other subscribed with an hundred handes.

And I thinke there is both noble men and other, who may better be trusted in that point, than a great number of parishes in Englande, which consist of rude and ignorant men, easily moued to testify any thing: And in many places for the most part, or altogither, drowned in Papistrie. I know no reason to the cōtrary, and I see no scripture alledged, why one learned, godly and wise mans testimonie, may not be reteiued in such a case, and yet the booke expresseth no such thing,* 1.23 but requireth due examination of learning, and sufficient testimonial of conuersation, and giueth libertie to any one particular man, to ob∣iect any crime against any suche as are to be ordered, & willeth that the partie accused be kept from the ministerie vntill he haue cleared himselfe of the crimes obiected. If tag and rag be admitted, learned and vnlearned, it is the fault of some, not of all, nor of the law: And if they were called and elected according to your fantasie, there would some creepe in, as euill as any be now, and woorse too,

T. C. Page. 26. Lin. 8.

It is not denyed, but the testimonie that a noble man whiche professeth the truth dothe gyue, ought to be weighed according to his degree, and place which he hath in the common welth, but where you thinke, that the testimonie of one wise man, learned, and godly, is sufficient warrant to proceede to an election of a Minister, you considered not well the circumspection which S. Paule vsed, who when he admitted Timothie into his company, to be a companion in his iourney, to cut off all occasion of euill speach, receyued him not*but vpon commendation of the brethren, both in Ly∣stra* 1.24 and Iconium.

Io. Whitgifte.

I know that the testimonie of many godly and wise men, is of more weight, than the testimonie of one only, but this is no answer to that which I haue said. The place of Paule and Timothie Act. 16. declareth how well Timothie was thought of, and commended vnto Paule, but it followeth not, that Paule would not also haue recey∣ued him, if he had bin commended vnto him but by some one. Howsoeuer it is, this your argument is nothing worth: nunquàm licet (saith Zuinglius) nequè in diuinis nequé in* 1.25 profanis, à facto ad ius argumentari: it is neuer lawful, neither in diuine nor in prophane mat∣ters to argue (*) à facto ad ius. Neyther is the text as you report it, for the words do not* 1.26 signify that Paule would not haue takē him with him, vnlesse they had al giuen such testimonie of him, neither can there be any such sense truly gathered out of that place. And it is manifest that the Apostles receiued Paule into their company, at the testi∣monie and commendation of Barnabas only.* 1.27

Chapter. 1. the. 11. Diuision.

Ansvvere of the Admonition. Pag. 38. Sect. 1.

You say that there be admitted into the ministerie of the basest sort of the people: I know not what you mean by the basest sort: this I am sure of, that the ministerie is not now bound to any one tribe, as it was to the tribe of Leui, in Ieroboams time: now none is seclu∣ded from that function of any degree, state, or calling, so that those qualities be founde in him, whiche in that office are to be required.

T. C. Page. 26. Lin 14.

You know they meant by the basest of the people, such as gaue but one leape out of the shop in∣to the Church, as sodainly are changed out of a seruing mans coate, into a ministers cloake, making for the most part, the ministerie their last refuge. &c. And seeing that besides the words be playne, the dayly experience teacheth it, you neede not make it so straunge, as though you knew not what they meant.

Io. Whitgifte.

I heare you say so, but why did they then quote the. 1. Reg. 1〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 3〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. that manife∣stly proueth the same sense that I haue gathered of their words, and that text onely occasioned me so to do.

Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision.

Ansvvere to the Admonition. Pag. 38. Sect. 2. 3. 4.

I maruell to what purpose the twelfth chapiter of the first booke of kings is here quoted, for Ieroboam is there reproued bycause hee tooke the priesthoode from the tribe of Leui, to the which only it dyd apperteyne.

The Papists neuer tooke so great occasion of slaundring the Gos∣pell,* 1.28 at the ignorance of the ministers (for they haue of themselues those that be as ignorant and more) as they do at your schismes and fond opinions, wherwith you disquiet the peace of the Churche, and lay stumbling blocks before the weake, for the which God will sure∣ly call you to accoumpt.

The second chapter to the Romaynes is here quoted only to painte the margent.

Io. Whitgifte.

All this is passed ouer in silence.

Notes

• (l) 1.1

  Acts. 1. 11. Acts. 6. 3. 1. Tim. 3. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. 7. 8. Tit. 1, 6.
• (m) 1.2

  1. Re. 12. 31.
• (n) 1.3

  Rom. 2. 14.
• (a) 1.4

  Surelye that was not so much ment, as that he might be a fitte witnesse of the doyngs of Christ and of his resur∣rection.
• (b) 1.5

  If all these be extraordinarie, what haue you left in that elec∣tion, as ordinary〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 or how proue you the other to be ordinarie more than some of these.
• * 1.6

  The booke of ordering mi∣nisters iusti∣fied concer∣ning examina∣tion.
• * 1.7

  Wickednes of men causeth not lawes to be euill.
• * 1.8

  The reasons of T. C. against the booke of orde∣ring ministers.
• * 1.9

  Manie eye〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 see more 〈◊〉〈◊〉 one.
• * 1.10

  The first 〈◊〉〈◊〉 son of T. C. hath either a weake, or a false ground.
• * 1.11

  The Byshop most meete to haue the exa∣mination.
• * 1.12

  Beza lib. eonf. cap. 5.
• * 1.13

  The elections Act. 1. & Act. 6. do nothing agree.
• * 1.14

  1. Tim. 3.
• * 1.15

  T. C. reaso∣neth against himselfe.
• * 1.16

  1. Timo. 3.
• * 1.17

  T. C. contra∣ry to himselfe.
• * 1.18

  The absurdi∣ti〈1 line〉〈1 line〉s that of necessitie fol∣low the asser∣tion of T. C.
• * 1.19

  Tra〈1 line〉〈1 line〉t. 4. c〈1 line〉〈1 line〉p. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉
• * 1.20

  Worthy mi∣nisters in England.
• * 1.21

  The conten∣tions in the Church is an hindrance to the profession of diumitie, in the vniuer∣sities.
• * 1.22

  Letters com∣mendatorie of wise and god∣ly men.
• * 1.23

  The b〈1 line〉〈1 line〉oke 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉quireth due examination of life and learning.
• * 1.24

  Act. 1〈1 line〉〈1 line〉.
• * 1.25

  Zainglius.
• * 1.26

  Of a deede or example to make a lawe.
• * 1.27

  Act. 9.
• * 1.28

  Offences gy∣uen to the Pa pists by their contentions.