The defense of the aunsvvere to the Admonition against the replie of T.C. By Iohn VVhitgift Doctor of Diuinitie. In the beginning are added these. 4. tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the replie. 2 Of falsifications and vntruthes. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table generall.

T. C. Page. 17. Sect. 3. 4. 5. 6.

The Answerer goeth aboute to proue, that they came yet out of good earthe, and from good men, whych if he had obtayned, yet he maye well knowe, that it is no good argumente to proue that they are good. For(*) 1.1 as the beste earthe bryngeth forth weedes, so doe the beste men bring forthlyes and errours. But let vs heare what is brought〈1 line〉〈1 line〉, that if this visarde and shewe of truth be taken awaye, all men may perceiue, howe good occasion we haue to complaine, and howe iust cause there is of reformation. In the fyrst place of Saynt Augustine there is nothing against any thing which we holde, for that, that the Churche may haue things not expressed in, the scrip∣ture, is not(a) 1.2 against, that it ought to haue nothing but that may be warranted by the scripture. For they may be according to the scripture, and by the Scripture, which are not by plaine ter〈1 line〉〈1 line〉es expressed in the Scripture. But agaynst you it▪ maketh much, and ouerturneth all your buylding in this booke. For if in those things which are not expressed in the Scripture, they are to be obser∣ued of the Churche, which are the customes of the people of God, and the decrees of oure forefa∣thers, then how can these things be varyed according to time, place, and persons, (which you saye should be) when as that is to be retayned, which the people of God hath vsed, and the decrees of the forefathers haue ordayned. And then also howe can we doe safelyer, than to followe the Apostles customes and the Churches in theyr tyme, whych we are sure are oure forefathers, and the peo∣ple of God.

Besides that, how can we retaine the customes and constitutions of the Papists in such things, which were neither the people of God nor our forefathers.

I will not enter nowe to discusse, whether it were well done to fast in all places, according to the custome of the place. You (b) 1.3 oppose Ambrose and Augustine: I coulde oppose Ignatius & Ter∣tullian* 1.4 whereof the one sayth, it is (nefas) a detestable thing to fast vpon the Lordes day, the other that it is to kill the Lord, and this is the inconuenience that commeth of suche vnlearned kinde of reasoning: S. Ambrose saith so and therefore it is true.

And although Ambrose & Augustine, being straungers and priuate men at Rome, would haue so done, yet it followeth not that if they hadde bene Citizens & ministers there, that they would haue done it, & if they had done so to, yet it followeth not but y^e they wold haue spokē against that appoin∣ment of dayes & 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 of fasting, wherof Eusebius saith that Montanus was the first au∣thor. I speake of y^e which they ought to haue done, for otherwise I know they both thought cor∣ruptly

of fasting (when as the one sayth) it was remedie or rewarde to fast other dayes, but in Lent,* 1.5 not to faste, was synne. And the other asketh, what saluation we can obtayne if we blot not our synnes by fastyng, seyng that the Scripture sayth, that fastyng and almes doth delyuer from sinne, and therefore calleth them new teachers, that shut out the merite of fasting, which I there∣fore recyte bicause you would seeme by Augustine and Ambrose iudgements to alowe of the weke∣ly and commaunded fastes.

Io. Whitgifte.

I haue sufficiently proued that the Scripture hathe not expressed all things that may be vsed in the Church touching ceremonies, order, and such matters, for that is the question we haue nowe in handling, and for further proofe and confirmation of the same, I doe not disdaine the authoritie of any man, especially of Augustine, a man* 1.6 (for his excellent learning and sound iudgement in most poynts of Religion) estéemed of all that haue any shewe of learnyng, or sparkle of modestie: his opinicn of the sufficiencie of the Scripture in matters of saluation, of the authoritie of it in iudge∣ing matters of controuersie is perfecte, and sounde, as may be séene Lib. 2. aduersus Cresco. gramma. Lib. 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉. contra Maximi: Lib. de vnitate ecclesiae. Lib. 2 de doct. Christ▪ Chap. 16. &. 20. Euang. Iohannis. Epist. 112. and in a number of places else: he speaketh also of Ceremo∣nyes and traditions, as moderately, as diuinely and as warely as any man dothe, as it appeareth euidently in these places that I haue in my answere alleaged. And ther∣fore he is not wyth suche contempte to be reiected, nor yet defaced wyth vntrue surmises.

That which commeth from so good and learned a man is the rather to be belée∣ued, so long as it is not repugnant to the worde of God. And althoughe the best earth bringeth forth some weedes, yet the good fruite muste not for the wéedes sake be refused. This is a very meane reason: good men sometimes erre and be deceiued, therefore they must neuer in any thing be beléeued.

But to come to the purpose: you say, that this fyrst place of Saint Augustine is no∣thing agaynst any thing that you holde. &c. Surely and it maketh wholly for that which I holde: for it proueth directly that there be some things wherein the Scripture hath not determyned any certaintie, but lefte them to the disposition of others: for he sayth In bis rebus de quibus nibil certi statu〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 scriptura diuina▪ &c. and that these things be not suche as be repugnant or against the worde of God; but accordyng to the rule of Saint Paule. 1. Cor. 14. (if you were not of purpose disposed agaynst your owne conscience and knowledge to abuse the reader) you myghte easily vnderstande by my expressed words, vttered in this portion of my answere, and in all other places where I haue occasion to speake of the like matters.

I woulde wishe you to deale sineerely: the question that we haue nowe in▪* 1.7 hande is, VVhether the Scripture hath expressed all externall things touchyng the or∣ders, Ceremonyes and gouernment of the Churche. I proue it hath not, both by the Scripture it selfe, and by manyfest examples, and by the iudgement of the beste learned: you not beyng able to answere, and yet desyrous to séeme to saye some∣what, to shifte of these examples and authorities, dallie at the matter, and would make your Reader beléeue that I woulde haue thyngs vsed in the Churche con∣trarye, or not accordyng to the Scriptures: from the whych opinion I am as farre of as you, and a greate waye farther, excepte you reuoke some poyntes of youre Booke. You shoulde therefore nowe haue kepte you to the improuyng of thys generall proposition: and if hereafter in speakyng of particular matters I had approued any thing against the word of God, you might haue spent▪ your wit and elo∣quence in confuting of that.

You saye that thys place of Saynte Augustyne maketh muche agaynst me. &c. but you are greatly deceyued, for Saint Augustyne in that place doth not gyue a certayne rule to the whole Churche, but to particular men, for it is hys aunswere so Ca∣〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ulanus demaundyng of hym Vtrùm liceat sabbato ieiunare. A priuate man maye not take vpon hym to violate the particular orders of anye particular Churche, much lesse suche orders as be obserued of the whole Churche, excepte they be agaynst the Scriptures, for bothe in thys and suche other rules of Augustyne that is ge∣nerally to be obserued whyche the same Augustyne, dothe adde in hys, 118. Epistle ad Ianuarium: quod nequè contra fidem nequè bonos mores iniungitur. &c. And that thys* 1.8 rule In bis rebus de quibus nihil certi. &c. is gyuen to particular men to dryue them from schismes and contentions in the Churche, it is euident by that whyche the same Augustyne writeth, in the ende of that Epistle ad Casulanum, VVherefore if* 1.9 you wyll willyngly content your selfe wyth my counsell (namely whych haue in this cause, being by you required and constrayned spoken peraduenture more than enough) doe not resiste your Byshoppe herein, and followe that whyche he dothe, wythout any scruple or doubte. Wherefore when Saint Augustyne sayth Mos populi Dei, &c. hys meanyng is that they are to be obserued as rules to kéepe priuate and par∣ticular men in order, and in quiet obedience to the Churche. Althoughe in deede* 1.10 the Churche it selfe maye not wythoute iuste cause, chaunge. suche thyngs as haue beene generally obserued, not beyng contra fidem & bonos mores, agaynst faythe and good manners, as the Lordes daye, the daye of the Resurrection, Ascention, and suche lyke. And there maye be iuste causes, why thyngs once determyned by the Churche, shoulde not be chaunged afterwardes, thoughe before the same thyngs were arbitrarye, and myghte haue béene otherwyse, and in some other manner decréed as the Churche had thoughte moste conuenient: If no suche cau∣ses be, it maye alter anye vse, Ceremonye, or order, whiche it hathe before de∣termyned, as Saynt Augustyne hym selfe declareth Epist. 118. ad Ianuarium. His* 1.11 enim causis, id est, propter fidem, aut propter mores, vel emendari oportet quod perperam fiebat, vel institui quod non fiebat. Ipsa quippe mutatio consuetudinis etiam quae adiuu〈1 line〉〈1 line〉t vti∣litate, nouitate perturbat. For these causes, that is to saye, for faythe and good man∣ners, eyther that muste be amended whiche was euyll done, or appoynted which was not done, for euen that chaunge of Custome, whych helpeth throughe profitte, doth trou∣ble through noueltie.

Nowe howe true thys collection of yours is: Augustyne prescribeth thys rule to Casulanus, that in those thyngs wherein the Scripture hathe determyned no cer∣〈1 line〉〈1 line〉aynetie, he shoulde followe the Custome of the people of God, and the decrees of oure forefathers, that is, that he shoulde vse hymselfe in those thyngs▪ that be not a∣gaynste faythe and good manners accordyng to the order of the Churches where he commeth, therefore these Customes vpon iuste cause maye not be altered by the Churche, let the learned Reader iudge. Ap〈1 line〉〈1 line〉nate man (a〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 I sayde) may not breake the lawfull and good orders of the Churche, thoughe they be not expres∣sed in the worde of God, yet maye suche: as God hathe gy〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 that authoritie vn∣to in hys Churche, alter and chaunge them as shall be moste 〈◊〉〈◊〉 euen ac∣cording to this r〈1 line〉〈1 line〉le of Augustyne (bis 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉im 〈◊〉〈◊〉 id est, aut propter fidem, aut prop〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ores, vel emendari oportet quod perpe〈1 line〉〈1 line〉m fiebat, vel institui quod non f〈1 line〉〈1 line〉ebat. &c.) before by me recyted.

We must followe suche cu〈1 line〉〈1 line〉omes of the Apostles and examples, as they haue vsed* 1.12 and done for vs to followe, but suche customes or doyngs of the Apostles as 〈◊〉〈◊〉 eyther peculiar vnto thems〈1 line〉〈1 line〉lues, o〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 〈◊〉〈◊〉 onely for such 〈◊〉〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉〈◊〉 in▪ we are not compelled to followe. For as in the Scriptures 〈◊〉〈◊〉 be 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉me pre∣ceptes generall, some onely 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉rsonall, so are there in the sa〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 of examples and or∣ders, some that for euer are to be obserued, and some for a 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 that there were suche customes, and orders among them shal be declared in seue〈1 line〉〈1 line〉all places, as occasion is minis〈1 line〉〈1 line〉red.

Whether we haue receyued, or maye retayne customes. &c. of the Papistes or no, is partly to be discussed where I speake of apparell, and partly in other places, where more particular occasion is offered to speake of the same: and therefore I will passe it ouer vntill I come to those places. Whyther it were well done to fast in all places accor∣ding to the custome of the place or no, is not the question.

I looke to Augustynes meanyng and purpose, not to euerye one of hys examples: howbeit I thinke that there is a greate difference, betwixte the manner of fastyng vsed then in the Churche, and the manner of fasting vsed nowe in some Chur∣ches. I thinke that in Augustynes tyme a man myghte haue obserued this rule of fastyng wythout anye offence to God. But I doe not thinke that he may doe so in lyke manner nowe, bycause it is certayne that in the Churche of Rome, there are manye wicked opinions, bothe of differences of meates, tymes, &c. and also of merite ioyned to theyr fastyng, and therefore are contra fidem & bonos mores, and so not wythin the compasse of thys rule, of S. Augustine.

I perceyue no repugnancie at all betwixte Ambrose, Augustyne, Ignatius and* 1.13 Tertullian, For the Sabboth daye mentioned by Ambrose and Augustyne, is not the Lordes daye, whych we call the Sundaye, and whereof both Ignatius and Tertullian speake: but it is the Saterday whych is called Sabbatum. And that this is true, you myghte haue read in the same Epistle of Augustyne to Casulanus, where he saith thus: VVhereas you aske of me, whyther it be lawfull to faste on the Sabboth daye: I* 1.14 aunswere, if it were by no meanes lawfull, truely neyther Moyses, nor Helias, nor oure Lorde him selfe woulde haue fasted fortie dayes together. But by thys reason it is con∣cluded, that the faste on the Lordes daye is lawfull also: notwythstandyng, whosoeuer doth thynke that thys daye oughte to be dedicated vnto fastyng, as some doe obserue the Sabboth fasting, he shall gyue no small offence to the Churche. And after in the same Epistle: And truely of the Sabboth day the case is more easie, bycause the Church of Rome dothe faste, and some other also, althoughe but fewe eyther of those that be nexte, or farre from it. But to faste on the Lordes daye is a greate offence, especially since that detestable heresye of the Manicheis, which is muche repugnant to the Catho∣like fayth, and moste manifestly contrarye to the Scriptures of God, hath bene openly knowen: whych doe appoynte vnto their hearers thys daye as lawfull to be fasted, wher∣by it is come to passe, that the faste on the Lordes daye is accompted more horryble. You sée therefore howe you maye be deceyued for all the great reading you woulde séeme to be of: for these fathers agrée among them selues, and you haue faulted in opposyng them to Augustyne and Ambrose: so that for anye thing that is yet proued a∣gaynst them, a man may well vse theyr authoritie in such matters wythout that in∣conuenience that you suppose: for I knowe howe farre they them selues would be beléeued, and wherevnto theyr authoritie extendeth.

It is lyke that bothe Ambrose and Augustine woulde haue done that themsel∣ues, which they moued other men vnto, and much more beyng Citizens, than beyng straungers: it is also like that if they had bene Ministers there, they woulde haue in time and place reproued suche things as were amisse; for it had bene their duetie so to doe: yet doe I lykewise thinke that they would haue had great respect to that aduer∣tisement, that Augustine gaue to Casulanus in that Epistle in these wordes, vti{que} cauendis est ne tempestate contentionis, serenitas charitatis obnubiletur. Verily we muste take heede least* 1.15 in the storme of contention, the fairenesse of loue be darkened.

The errors which Ambrose or Augustine had, must〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 not preiudice their authoritie in speaking truely. This is but a very simple kinde of answering, to denie the author where be speaketh truely, bycause in some other place he hath erred, and bene decey∣ued. I neither alledge Ambrose nor Augustine, to allowe or disalow weekely and comman∣ded fastes but to proue the matter that I haue in hand, which is, that the scripture hath not expressed all things vsed in the Churche. Howbeit, I know nothing in this place affirmed either by Ambrose or Augustine touching fasting, which may not be obserued without iust offence.

Notes

• (*) 1.1

  A true sayings, but not truely applyed.
• (a) 1.2

  But it is a∣gainst that, that nothing should be placed in the Churche whyche God in his word〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 hath not com∣maunded: and therefore you do here but shifte of the controuersie〈1 line〉〈1 line〉
• (b) 1.3

  Vntruth, pro∣ceeding of Igno∣rance.
• * 1.4

  Tertul. de cor. milit. Ignat. ad phi. epist. 5.
• * 1.5

  August d〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 temp. ser. 62 Amb. 10. li▪ epist▪
• * 1.6

  Augustine de∣liuered from vntrue sur∣mises.
• * 1.7

  The suttle dealing of T. C. in alte∣ring y^e state of the controuer∣sie.
• * 1.8

  Augu. ep. 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• * 1.9

  Idem.
• * 1.10

  The Church may not alter any order ge∣nerally obser∣ued, without iust cause.
• * 1.11

  Idem.
• * 1.12

  What exam∣ples and cus∣tomes of the Apostles we must follow.
• * 1.13

  The Replyer setteth the fa∣thers together by the eares without cause
• * 1.14

  Ibidem.
• * 1.15

  Ibidem.