A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*

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A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*
Author
White, Francis, 1564?-1638.
Publication
London :: Printed by Adam Islip,
1624.
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Subject terms
Fisher, John, 1569-1641 -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800.
Church of England -- Apologetic works -- Early works to 1800.
Catholic Church -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800.
Link to this Item
http://name.umdl.umich.edu/A15082.0001.001
Cite this Item
"A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*." In the digital collection Early English Books Online. https://name.umdl.umich.edu/A15082.0001.001. University of Michigan Library Digital Collections. Accessed June 4, 2024.

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ANSWER.

THe more learned Iesuites themselues, acknowledge b 1.1, That Protestants beleeue the reall Presence of Christs Bodie and Blood, in the holy Eucharist; and our Di∣uines deliuer their Faith concerning the Sacrament in this [ E]

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manner a 1.2: God forbid wee should denie, that the flesh and bloud of [ A] Christ are truly present, and truly receiued of the faithfull at the Lords Table: it is the Doctrine wee teach others, and comfort our selues with.

The difference then betweene Papals and vs, is not concer∣ning the obiect, or matter receiued in and by the Sacrament, [ B] but touching the manner of Presence, and the manner of Re∣ceiuing. Caluin b 1.3 saith thus concerning the difference, That the bodie and bloud of Christ are communicated to vs in the holy Eucharist, none of vs denie; the question is, concerning the manner of this communication.

The sacred Scripture neither expressely, nor yet by any for∣mall consequence, teacheth the Doctrine of Transubstantiati∣on (as some learned Papists c 1.4 themselues confesse) neither is [ C] this Doctrine any part of the antient Catholique Faith (as some other among them say d 1.5.)

The Fathers are against Transubstantiation: The mysticall signes (saith Theodoret e 1.6) doe not, after sanctification, depart from their owne nature, but remaine in their former substance, figure, and [ D] forme. The Sacraments which wee receiue of the bodie and bloud of Christ (saith Pope Gelasius f 1.7) are a diuine thing, and by them wee are made partakers of the Diuine Nature; and yet for all that, the nature of Bread and Wine ceaseth not to be. After consecra∣tion (saith S. Chrysostome g 1.8) it is deliuered from the name of Bread, and reputed worthie to be called the Lords Bodie: notwith∣standing, the nature of Bread still remaineth. The signes, as touching the substance of the creatures, are the same after consecration, which they were before (saith Bertram. h 1.9.)

To the other part of the Iesuits speech, Or else the maine Ar∣ticle, [ E] &c. I answer, first, we cannot graunt, That one indiuidu∣all Bodie may be in many distant places at one and the same instant, vntill the Papals demonstrate the possibilitie hereof by

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testimonie of sacred Scripture, or by the antient Tradition of [ A] the Primitiue Church, or by apparent reason. And if they shall except, saying, That they make not Christs bodie locally present in many places at once, but substantially a 1.10 onely; wee say with Augustine b 1.11, Spacia locorum tolle corporibus & nusquam erunt, & quia nusquam erunt, nec erunt, Take away their places from bodies, and the bodies shall be no where; and if they shall be no where, they shall haue no being. And in another place c 1.12, Corpora non possunt esse, nisi in loco; Bodies cannot be, but in some place. And againe d 1.13, Christus homo secundum cor∣pus, [ B] in loco est, & de loco migrat, & cum ad alium locum venerit in eo loco, vnde venit, non est; The man Christ is in a place, accor∣ding to his Bodie, and hee passeth from place to place; and when hee commeth to another place, hee is not in that place from whence hee came.

The Papals paralogize, saying, That because circumscripti∣on and localitie are not of the essence of the bodie e 1.14, there∣fore by the omnipotent power of God, the bodie may be without them. But if this illation be good, then wee may likewise inferre, That because to be created, made, or begot∣ten, is not of the definition of humane bodies f 1.15, therefore hu∣mane bodies, by the omnipotencie of God, may be increate, and without beginning. The learned Iulius Scaliger g 1.16 spea∣keth [ D] in this manner: (Tametsi quod non includitur in definitione, abesse potest, à definito in definitione, non omne tamen abesse potest, à re definita. Propria enim quae vocantur, in definitione non ponuntur, à re tamen abesse nequeunt, cuius propria sunt, Etsi namque sunt na∣tura suis subiectis posteriora, non tamen re, &c. Qua necessitate, coniunctum cum corpore locum, arbitror.) Although that which is not included in the definition, may be separated from the thing defi∣ned, in the very definition, yet it cannot be parted from the subiect, or thing, which is defined: for the essentiall properties of things are not placed in the definition, yet they cannot be diuided from the [ E] subiect, whose properties they be: And although by posterioritie of nature, they follow the subiects, yet indeed they are inseparable. And thus, place or circumscription is inseparably conioyned with a bodie.

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Secondly, The bodie of Christ in the Eucharist, hath mag∣nitude, [ A] and quantitie, as Aquinas a 1.17 and other Schoolemen b 1.18 commonly teach. But things which haue magnitude, and quantitie, are diuisible, and limitted and confined to a certaine space, and measure, equall to their bulke and materiall sub∣stance: also they haue distance of parts, and are extended at leastwise in order to themselues, and bounded by their owne termination, compasse, or surface, although nothing extrinse∣call to them, should containe them outwardly (as is instanced in the highest Heauens c 1.19.)

When Sophisters say, That Christs bodie hath quantitie, and not the manner (or nature of quantitie) they deliuer plaine Chimaera's, and Fictions: For as a thing cannot be a substance, and want the proper nature and manner of a substance, so like∣wise a bodie cannot haue quantitie, and want the proper man∣ner [ C] and condition of quantitie d 1.20.

And whereas to elude so manifest Veritie, Papists flye to the Omnipotencie of God e 1.21, saying, That although in na∣ture it be impossible for one and the same bodie to be in ma∣ny places at once; yet because God is omnipotent, hee is able to effect it. Wee answer, first, it implyeth a contradicti∣on, [ D] That God should destroy the nature of a thing, the na∣ture of the same thing remaining safe. Secondly, wee say with Tertullian f 1.22, The power of God (which we must stand of) is his Will, and that which he Will not, he cannot. And S. Augu∣stine g 1.23, Christ is said to be omnipotent, in doing what he Will. No∣thing is impossible to God, because it exceedeth his power (saith S. Ambrose h 1.24) but some things are repugnant to his Will, and some things to his veritie, Tit. 1. 2. And the impossibilitie of these things proceedeth not of Infirmitie in God, but of Might and

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Maiestie, because his Truth admitteth no Lye, nor his Power any [ A] Inconstancie.

Because therefore Christ hath a true and perfect Bodie, both in regard of substance and matter, and also in respect of quan∣titie a 1.25, stature, measure, posture, proportion, &c. and because euerie true humane bodie, by the Ordinance of the Creator, (who hath formed and constituted the seuerall kinds and na∣tures of things after a speciall manner) is determined to one indiuiduall place at one instant b 1.26, and must also haue distinction and diuision of parts, with a length, latitude, and thicknesse proportionall to the quantitie thereof: Therefore, except [ B] God himselfe had expressely reuealed, and testified by his Word, that the contrarie should be found in the humane bo∣die of Christ, and that the same should haue one manner of corporall being in Heauen, and another in the holy Eucha∣rist, at one and the same time; a Christian cannot be com∣pelled to beleeue this Doctrine, as an Article of his Creed, vpon the sole Voyce and Authoritie of the Laterane or Tri∣dent Councell.

Some learned Papists confesse ingeniously, That secluding the Authoritie of the Church, there is no written Word of God c 1.27 sufficient to enforce a Christian to receiue this Do∣ctrine: [ D] And moderne Pontificians are not able to confirme their present Tenet (to wit, That Christs humane bodie may be in many vbities or places at one time, and that the whole bodie of Christ is circumscriptiuely in Heauen, and accor∣ding to the manner of a Spirit d 1.28, and of the Diuine nature it selfe, without extension of parts, in euerie crumme of the

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Sacramentall formes.) This Doctrine (I say) Papals are not [ A] able to confirme, by the vnanimous Testimonie and Tradition of the antient Church. Therefore because the same is groun∣ded, neither vpon Scripture nor Tradition, they begge the question, when they alleadge Gods omnipotent power: for it must first of all, and that vpon infallible Principles appeare, That God will haue it thus; before his omnipotencie be plea∣ded a 1.29, that he is able to make it thus.

But the Iesuites Sophisme, whereby hee would intangle vs within the snares of fundamentall Errour, when wee denie Christs bodily presence in many places at once, proceedeth in this manner:

No bodie can be truely receiued in many places at once, vnlesse the same be corporally present in many places at once.

The Bodie of Christ is truely receiued in many places at [ C] once, to wit, in euery place where the holy Eucharist is admi∣nistred. Ergo:

The Bodie of Christ is present in many places at once.

I answere: The Maior Proposition is denyed; for there is a twofold manner of true Presence, and consequently of Re∣ceiuing: one Naturall, by the hand and mouth of the bodie: [ D] Another Mysticall and Spirituall, by the deliuerie of the holy Ghost, and by the apprehension and action of the soule.

First, The holy Ghost truely and verily reacheth and pre∣senteth the Obiect, which is Christs Bodie and Blood, cruci∣fied, and offered in Sacrifice for mans Redemption.

* 1.30 Secondly, The reasonable soule being eleuated by a liuely and operatiue Faith, apprehendeth and receiueth the former obiect, as really, verily, and truely, after a spirituall and su∣pernaturall manner, as the bodie receiueth any corporeall or sensible obiect, after a naturall manner, Iohn 1. 12. Ephes. 3. [ E] 17. Fulgentius b 1.31 saith, Filium Dei vnicum per fidem recipiunt: They receiue the onely Sonne of God by Faith. Our Sa∣uiour saith, That holy Beleeuers receiue the Flesh, and drinke the Blood of Christ, Iohn 6. 50, 53, 54. Credendo, by

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〈◊〉〈◊〉 a 1.32, v. 35.47. Paschasius b 1.33 hath these words, The [ A] flesh and blood of Christ, &c. are truely 〈◊〉〈◊〉 by Faith, and vn∣derstanding. It is not lawfull to eate Christ with teeth. This Sacra∣ment is truely his flesh and his blood, which man eateth and drin∣keth spiritually. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 saith, Hold readie the mouth of thy Faith, open the iawes of Hope, stretchout the bowels of Loue, and take the Bread of life, which is the nourishment of the inward man. Eusebius Emisenus c 1.34, When thou goest vp to the reuerend Al∣tar, to bee filled with spirituall meates by Faith, behold, honour, and wonder at the sacred Bodie and Blood of thy God, touch it with thy minde, take it with the hand of thy heart: and chiefly prouide, [ B] that the inward man swallow the whole. Saint Ambrose e 1.35, Come∣dat te cor meum panis Sancte, panis viue, panis munde, veni in cor meum, intra in animam meam: Let mine heart eate thee, oh holy Bread, oh liuing Bread, oh pure Bread, come into my heart, enter into my soule. Saint Augustine f 1.36, There is ano∣ther Bread which confirmeth the heart, because it is the Bread of the heart. And in another place g 1.37, Then is the Body and Blood of the Lord life to each man, when that which is visibly taken in the Sacra∣ment, is in very truth spiritually eaten, spiritually drunken. [ C]

Now from the former Testimonies, it is manifest, that the Bodie and Blood of Christ, may truely and really bee [ D] eaten and receiued, by operatiue Faith in the Sacrament.

And if it bee further obiected, That spirituall eating and drinking of the Bodie and Blood of Christ, may bee without the Sacrament:

I answere, That the same is more effectually and perfectly accomplished in the Sacrament, than out of the Sacrament: because the holy Ghost, directly, and in speciall, when the Sa∣crament is deliuered, exhibiteth the Body and Blood of Christ, as a pledge and testimonie of his particular loue towards euery worthie Receiuer; and the liuely representation and comme∣moration [ E] of Christs death and Sacrifice, by the mysticall signes and actions, is an instrument of the Diuine Spirit, to apply and communicate Christ crucified, and to increase and confirme the Faith, Charitie, and pietie of Receiuers.

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Lastly, It is remarkeable, that vntill the thousand yeeres, [ A] and more, after Christs Ascension a 1.38, Orthodoxall Christians beleeued, that the Bodie and Blood of Christ were truely and really present, and deliuered to worthie Receiuers, in, and by the holy Eucharist, according to St. Pauls Doctrine, 1. Cor. 10.16. And that the same must be spiritually receiued by Faith, or else they profited nothing b 1.39.

But the manner of Presence (which some Modernes now obtrude) by Consubstantiation, or by Transubstantiation, was not determined as an Article of Faith c 1.40.

And (to say nothing of Consubstantiation, the defence [ C] whereof, inuolueth them in many absurdities, which vnder∣take for it) it is apparant, that Transubstantiation is a bastard plant, and vpstart weed, neuer planted by the heauenly Fa∣ther, but the same sprang vp in the declining state of the Church, and it is perplexed and inuolued with so many ab∣surdities and contradictions to Veritie formerly receiued; that our Aduersarie was transported with partiall folly, when he presumed to ranke the refusall of this new d 1.41 and prodigious Article, among fundamentall Errours. [ D]

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