A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*

ANSWER.

The true Church in her sounder members, erreth not in points fundamentall, nor yet in matters of lesse moment, ma∣liciously, or with pertinacie a 1.1: But the same may be ignorant, and also erre in secondarie Articles b 1.2.

The reason of the first is, because the same should then cease [ D] to bee the true Church, by corrupting the substance of right faith, expresly or vertually; and consequently, there should re∣maine no true Church vpon earth, which is impossible.

The reason of the second is, because the Church, since the Apostles, is not guided by immediate inspiration, or by Pro∣pheticall reuelation, but by an ordinarie assistance of grace, ac∣companying the vse of right meanes, which remooueth not possibilitie of errour, but leaueth space for humane iudgement, being regenerate onely in part, Heb. 5.2. Gal. 5.17. Aug. Enchir. c. 63. to worke by his proper force and power.

Secondly, the Church hath no perpetuall Traditions, but [ E] such as are either contained in holy Scripture c 1.3, or which are

subseruient to maintaine the faith, veritie, and authoritie of the [ A] holy Scriptures, and the doctrine thereof.

Thirdly, whereas the Iesuit saith: That euen as no vntruth can be admitted in the holy Scripture, in regard of such things as are of the least moment, without ouerthrowing the totall authoritie thereof: so likewise no errour, great or small, can bee admitted in the doctrine and Tradition of the present Church, because vpon the same will follow the subuersion of all her Tradition, euen in matters essentiall.

I answere: That there is not the same reason of the Scrip∣ture and the Church, for the Scripture is totally and perfectly diuine, and must alwayes bee so esteemed; and to admit any [ B] errour or possibilitie thereof in Scripture, were to make God a lyar, and consequently, to ouerthrow all faith a 1.4. But the pre∣sent Church is onely the seruant of God, and of his word b 1.5, Iohn 10.27. and hath no credit or authoritie but from it, and al∣though the same may erre in some things, yet there remaineth alwaies a higher and more soueraigne Iudge c 1.6, to wit, the holy Ghost speaking in and by the Scriptures, to whom Christians, desirous of truth, may appeale d 1.7, and by whose sentence the Doctrine and Traditions of the present Church are to bee iudged. [ C]

Whosoeuer admitteth any errour or vntruth in the holy Scripture, taketh away all authoritie from that which is the prime foundation of supernaturall veritie e 1.8. But he that admit∣teth error or fallibilitie of iudgement in some Traditions and Doctrines of the Pastours of the present Church, doth onely [ D] make the credit of a secondarie and inferior witnesse, subiect to triall and examination of an higher Iudge. And euen as in buil∣ding the rule and measure of proportion must alwaies be euen and right in it selfe, but the workemans hand may possibly leane or shake, and applie his rule amisse: so likewise the holy Scriptures which are the principles of Theologie f 1.9, and the most exact ballance and measure of diuine Veritie (as S. Chrysostome speaketh g 1.10) must be free from all obliquitie of error, and to ad∣mit the least error in the Scripture ouerthroweth the founda∣tion of Faith. But the Ministerie and Tradition of the Church [ E]

is like an Artificers hand, which may sometimes leane and goe [ A] awrie, and yet the foundation of Veritie abideth firme in the prime authenticall rule, and by the same, the errour of mens Tradition and Doctrine may be corrected.

Fourthly the Iesuit affirmeth, That Tradition (to wit, of the Church since the Apostles) is the prime originall ground of Faith, more fundamentall than the Scripture. This assertion is Antichri∣stian and impudent a 1.11, for can any thing be more fundamentall than the foundation b 1.12, or of greater authoritie than the word of God? S. Peter speaking of the Propheticall Scriptures, equalleth the same to the sensible voice of God, which was [ B] vttered in the Apostles audience from heauen, Math. 3.17. & c. 17.5. saying, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, We haue the most sure word of Prophesie, &c. vpon these words S. Augustine d. verb. Apostoli, serm. 29. commenteth as followeth: Et cum dixisset hanc vocem audiuimus de Coelo delatam, subiunxit atque ait, habemus certiorem propheticum sermonem, sonuit illa vox de Coelo, certior est propheticus sermo, when the Apostle had said, We heard this voice from heauen; he addeth further, and saith, We haue a more sure word of prophesie. That voice sounded from heauen; and yet the propheticall word is more sure: he [ C] said more sure, not better or truer, because that word from heauen was as good and as profitable as the word of prophe∣sie; Why therefore more sure? Because the hearer was more confirmed by it c 1.13.

Our Sauiour himselfe in the Gospell examineth the Tradi∣tions of the Pharises, and of the Iewish Church then being, by the Scriptures, Math. 5.6. and 7. & Ch. 12.5. & c. 15.4. & [ D] 19.4. And the holy Ghost in the new Testament, both in the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, confirmeth the Truth which was taught, by the authoritie of the Scriptures, and Christ Iesus perpetually submitteth himselfe and his doctrine to the triall of the Scriptures, and the Apostles after him did the like, Acts 26.22. The antient Fathers affirme, that the Scriptures are of most eminent authoritie d 1.14, and that wee are aboue all things to giue credit to them e 1.15, and that they are the mouth of God f 1.16, and the verie hand of God g 1.17, and Paul, and Peter, and Iohn, and the whole companie of the Prophets [ E] do speake with vs by them h 1.18, and that Faith it selfe, by which

a iust man liueth, is conceiued by them a 1.19, and the Church it [ A] selfe is demonstrated (to wit, tanquam à priori) by them b 1.20. But on the contrarie, Traditions receiue their authoritie from the Scriptures, and may not be admitted vnlesse they agree with the Scriptures: And in our Aduersaries Tenet, men must first beleeue the authoritie of the Church before they can receiue or beleeue Tradition: from all which it followeth, that Tradi∣tion of the present Church is neither the prime originall ground of Faith, nor yet more fundamentall, concerning Faith, than the Scripture.

The Trident Councell held it sufficient to equall Tradition [ B] with the Scriptures. This new master with Baronius c 1.21 & Pighius d 1.22 preferreth them before the Scriptures. These men perceiue that the Roman Faith cannot subsist, vnlesse they depresse the written word of God, and exalt the prophane, bastardly, and Apocriphall Traditions of the Pope. They say the Scripture is a breathlesse lumpe e 1.23 a nose of wax f 1.24, a leaden rule g 1.25. Andradius wri∣teth, That in the Books of the Scriptures themselues, there is no diuini∣tie or any thing else binding vs to beleeue h 1.26. Stapleton saith, That being considered as written, it can no way be called the Temple or Tabernacle [ C] of the holy Ghost i 1.27. Bosius saith, The holy Ghost resideth in the Church more effectually and nobly than in the Bookes of the Scripture k 1.28. And Majoranus hath these words, The consent of the Church alone which neuer wanted the spirit of God, ought to be of greater esteeme with vs, than all mute and tonguelesse Bookes, and than all the written volumes which are or euer were, and which haue in all ages ministred fuell of contention to the wits of men l 1.29. And Gretsar the Iesuit, There would haue beene fewer contentions in the world (as I supose) if there had beene no Scripture at all. Iacob Brower a Reader of Do∣way m 1.30 saith, I would not beleeue the Gospell, did not the authoritie of Pope Paul the fift mooue me. And lastly it is one of the dictates of [ D] Pope Hildebrand, canonised by Baronius n 1.31, That no Chapter or Booke of Scripture must bee esteemed canonicall without his au∣thoritie.

I doubt not but that Romists are able with faire glosses and

distinctions to salue these blasphemies a 1.32, and to reconcile dark [ A] nesse with light, but he that diggeth a pit for people to fall in∣to (althought he couer the same with some superficiall tecture) is accused by the antient sentence of diuine Law. Exod. 21.33.

Towards the end of this Section, the Iesuit addeth,

First, That the Scripture is not knowne to bee Apostolicall but by Tradition. This is false, for the Scripture is knowne to come from the Apostles, by inward grounds and testimonies contai∣ned in it selfe, and by the vertue and effects of it, as well as by the Tradition of the Church.

Secondly, it is most vntrue, that Tradition is knowne to come [ B] from the Apostles by it owne light, but not Scripture: for what internall light hath Tradition more than, or aboue the Scrip∣ture? If it haue, then the articles of Popish Tradition, Purga∣torie, adoration of Images, &c. are more manifest than the ar∣ticles which Scripture teacheth concerning the incarnation and resurrection of Christ, than Heauen and Hell, &c. Also sa∣cred Scripture is receiued as diuine by all Christians, Popish Tradition onely by some. The Catalogue of Romish Tra∣dition could neuer to this day be specified, and distinctly as∣signed b 1.33, but the Canon of holy Scripture may. Moreouer, [ C] holie Scripture hath the perpetuall and vnanimous consent of the Primitiue Church, Popish Tradition hath not. Againe, Bel∣larmine confesseth c 1.34, that nothing is better knowne, and more certaine than holy Scripture: but if nothing be better known, then nothing hath clearer light.

Thirdly, the confirmation of the former (to wit, What more [ D] euident, &c.) is insufficient, because that which is known to come from the Apostles by their owne immediat testimonie in wri∣ting, is more euidently knowne to come from them, than that which is affirmed to come from them, onely by the report of men which are deceiueable. Diuine testimonie maketh things more certaine and infallible than humane. The testimonie of the Apostles extant in writing is totally diuine, the report of Bishops is in part humane d 1.35.

Notes

• a 1.1

  Occham. Dial. p. 1. l. 5. c. 28. In Ec∣clesia militante est [ C] certum iuditium quantum ad ea quae necesse est credere explicite ad salutem aeternam consequendam, quia sem∣per vsque ad finem mundi erunt aliqui Catholici qui tali modo in vera 〈◊〉〈◊〉 explicite permanebunt.
• b 1.2

  Sed circa illa quae non sunt necessaria explicite credere non est necesse quod semper in Ecclesia Catholica sit tale iudicium, quìa multa sunt de quibus melius est pie dubitare, quam vnam partem contradictionis vel 〈◊〉〈◊〉 temere affirmare. Nequaquam tamen circa quae cun{que} talia, Catholici omnes aut pertinaciter errabunt aut pertinaciter dubitabunt, &c. pa. 497. Idem pa. 1. l. 2. c. 4. Error qui pertinaciam non habet, non obuiat sanctitati. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. summ. d. Eccl. l. 2. c. 112. Quamuis Ecclesia dono & authoritate diuina fulciatur, tamen in quantum est hominum congregatio aliquid ex defectu humano in actibus suis prouenit, quod non est diuinum. Lombard. l. 4. dist. 18. f. Ita & hic aperte ostenditur, quod non semper sequitur Deus, Ecclesiae iudicium, quae per 〈◊〉〈◊〉 & ignorantiam interdum iudicat. Francisc. Picus. Theorem. 23. Fieri potest, vt vicarium caput aegrotet, quemad. & naturale, & sicut hoc noxios humores, ita illud praua dogmata, immittat in corpus.
• c 1.3

  〈◊〉〈◊〉. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 74. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Traditio, &c. Si in Euangclio precipitur aut in Apostolorum Epistolis, aut actibus continetur, &c. obseruetur diuina haec & sancta 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Idem. serm. d. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Christiana religio inuenit 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 Scriptura, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 doctrinarum regulas emanasse, & hic nasci & 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉, quic quid Ecclesiastica 〈◊〉〈◊〉 disciplina.
• a 1.4

  Aug. d. Doctr. Christiana lib. 1. ca. 37. Titubabit auté fides si Scripturarú vaccillat authoritas 〈◊〉〈◊〉. in Math. hom. 1.
• b 1.5

  Chrys. d. La∣zaro. hom. 4. Etiam fi mortuus reniuis∣cat, etiam si Ange∣lus de Coelo descé∣dat maxime omni∣um credendum est Scripturis, nam Angelorum herus, mortuorum paritèr ac viuentium Dominus ipse eas con∣di dit.
• c 1.6

  Aug. c. Faust. Manich. li. 11. ca. 5. Tanquam in sede quadam sublimitur constituta est, cui 〈◊〉〈◊〉 omnis fidelis & pius intellectus.
• d 1.7

  Aug. in Psalm. 22. Optatus Mileuitanus c. Parmen. li. 5. De Coelo, quaerendus est Iudex, & qui in tumulo quiescit tacitis tabulis loquitur viuus, voluntas eius velut in testamen∣to sic inquiratur.
• e 1.8

  Aug. d Trinit. lib. 3. ca. 11. Nec re∣licto solidaméto di∣uini eloquij &c.
• f 1.9

  Cameracensis 1. Sent. q. 1. Art. 1. Principia Theolo∣gica sunt ipsae sacri Canonis veritates, quoniam ad ipsas fit vltimata resolu∣tio 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉, & ex eis 〈◊〉〈◊〉 singulae propositiones, Theologiae deducuntur.
• g 1.10

  Chrys. 2. Cor. hom. 13. 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. Aug. c. Don. lib. 2. ca. 6. Afferamus diuinam stateram de Scripturis sanctis. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 serm. d. Bapt. Christiana religio inuenit ex hac Scriptura, omnium Doctrina∣rum regulas emanasse, & hic nasci, & huc 〈◊〉〈◊〉 quicquid Ecclesiastica continet disciplina.
• a 1.11

  Hieron. sup. Aggeum. c. 1. Quae absque authoritate & testimonio scrip∣turarum quasi Tra∣ditione Apostolica sponte reperiút at∣què confingunt, percutit gladi Dei.
• b 1.12

  Bassolis, praef. Prolog. sup. Sent. Quartum principa∣le. De primo nota quod fundamenta eius in montibus sanctis. Fundamen∣tum enìm Scriptu∣rae sacrae, Christus est, petra solidissi∣ma supra quā fun∣data est veritas Scripturae.
• c 1.13

  Certioré sane dixit certiorem nō meliorem non ve∣riorem. Tam enim verus ille sermo de Coelo, quam sermo Propheticus, tàm bonus tàm vtilis. Quid est ergo certiorem, nisi in quo magis confirmetur Auditor.
• d 1.14

  Aug. d. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Dei, li. 11. c. 3. & lib. 14. ca. 7.
• e 1.15

  Chrys. d. Laza∣ro Hom. 4.
• f 1.16

  Rupert in Mat. lib. 4. cap. 5. ver. 2. Quod est illud os Domini, nisi 〈◊〉〈◊〉 per quas nobis loquitur 〈◊〉〈◊〉
• g 1.17

  Chrys. Hom. d. Expuls. ipsius. Lego manum cius, &c. Aug. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 144. Quoddam Chyrographum Dei quod omines transeuntes legerent & viam promissio∣nis 〈◊〉〈◊〉 tenerent.
• h 1.18

  Chrys. in Rom. hom. 30.
• a 1.19

  Aug. d. Ciuit-Dei li. 19. ca. 18.
• b 1.20

  Idem ep. 50. & d. vnit. Eccles. c. 3.
• c 1.21

  Annal. tom. 1. Anno. 53. n. 11.
• d 1.22

  Pighius con∣crouers. 3.
• e 1.23

  Coster. Enchi∣rid. loc. d. Pontif. pa. 135.
• f 1.24

  Pigh. contro∣uers. 3. pa. 92. Idem Hierarch. Epistol. Nuncupator. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. disp. 2. d. fid. pag. 21. Ipsae Scripturae quoad bonam par∣tem, difficiles sunt, obscurae & ambi∣guae, inflar nasi ce∣rei, & regulae lesbiae, susque deque tra∣hi possunt ab im∣pijs.
• g 1.25

  Andrad. de∣fens. lib. 2. pag. 257. Neque in libris ip∣sis quib' sacra my∣steria cōscripta sút, quicquam inest di∣uinitatis, quae nos ad credendum quae illis continentur, re∣ligiono aliqua constringat, &c. Bannes 22. q. 1. ar. 10. pag. 181. Cum sitelinguis & mortua, seipsam 〈◊〉〈◊〉 non valet.
• h 1.26

  Stapl. Princip. Doctr. lib. 12. ca. 2. pa. 444.
• i 1.27

  Bos. d. Signis Eccles. tom. 2. lib. 16. ca. 10.
• k 1.28

  Ma∣ioranus Clyp. lib. 2. cap. 28. Vnus Ecclesiae consensus qui nunquam caruit spiritu Deipluris apud nos esse debet, quā omnes elingues, & muti codices, & quotquot fuerunt sunt & erunt, vnquam scripta volumina, quae homi∣num ingenijs semper materiam contentionis prebuerunt.
• l 1.29

  〈◊〉〈◊〉. Def. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. d. verb. Dei, lib. 4. cap. 4. & cap. 12. Putasnè plures haereses & sectas exorituras fuisse, si nulla penitus Scriptura extitisset, quam [ E] nunc cum Scriptura mortalibus è Coelo data est? Ego certe propior sum existimanti, pauciores, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 futu∣ras.
• m 1.30

  Clauis, Apostolica ar. 8. Nomine Ecclesiae aptè intelligi potest, ipse vniuersalis Ecclesiae pastor, &c. atquè adeo dictum Augustini est, Idem ac si diceret Euangelio non crederem, nisi me 〈◊〉〈◊〉 quinti aut alterius Pontificis moueret authoritas.
• n 1.31

  Baron. Annal. tom. 11. Anno 1076. n. 33. Quod 〈◊〉〈◊〉 capitulum nullus∣què liber 〈◊〉〈◊〉 habeatur, absquè illius authoritate.
• a 1.32

  〈◊〉〈◊〉 Animaduers. c. Par. Disp. 1. c. 2. Thes. 7. pag. 12.
• b 1.33

  〈◊〉〈◊〉. Lo. com. d. Script. n. 66. Nec dum Pontificij integram farraginē Traditionum suarū enumerare vel po∣tuerunt vel volue∣runt (qua de re Colloq. Ratisbon) verùm quasi communem hanc topicam solum seruant, vt quicquid ex Scriptura probare non possunt, ex Tradi∣tione ortum esse dicant.
• c 1.34

  Bellarm. d. verb. Dei, li. 1. ca. 2. At 〈◊〉〈◊〉 is Scripturis quae Propheticis & 〈◊〉〈◊〉 literis continentur, nihil est notius, nihil est certius.
• d 1.35

  Lombard. sent. lib. 4. d. 18. F. Non sempèr Deus sequitur Ecclesiae iudicium, quae per surreptionem & ignorantiam interdum iudicat, Deus autèm semper iudicat secundùm veritatem. Panormitan in Decret. 5. d. sent. Excom. c. 28. Iudicium Ecclesiae aliquan∣dò [ E] 〈◊〉〈◊〉 opinionem, quae saepè fallit & fallitur. Veritas quandoquè later Ecclesiam.