A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*

ANSWER.

Sanctitie of Grace (which is a perpetuall propertie of the true Church) shineth in all the sound and liuing members of the Church, Phil. 2. 15. And whereas the measure and degrees thereof are 〈◊〉〈◊〉, the most eminent degree of sanctitie is not [ D] alwayes found in Preachers, or in Popes, and greater Prelates, or in persons professing Monasticall life; but the same may be equall, or greater, in Lay persons, or in people of meane e∣steeme: as appeareth by the state of the Iewish Church, in the dayes of Esay, cap. 1.9. and of the Pharisees, at such time as our Sauiour was incarnate. Dominicus Bannes, a famous Schoole-man, treating of the sanctitie of the Church, saith a, That the supreame Bishop, the Pope, is said to be most holy, because of his State and Office, although indeed hee is not so. Rode∣ricus speaking of the Clergie of his times, saith b, Rectores [ E] moderni, non Pastores, sed raptores, ouium tonsores, non ad viridia pascua ductores, non piscatores, sed negotiatores, non dispensatores

bonorum crucifixi, sed voratores, &c. Our moderne Church-men [ A] are not Pastors, but Raueners; they fleece their Sheepe, and lead them not to the greene Pastures; they are not stewards, but deuourers of the goods of Christ crucified, &c. And Laurent. Iustinianus saith a, The greatest part of Priests and Clerkes in our dayes liue voluptuously, and after the manner of Beasts. Paucissimi reperiuntur qui honestè viuunt, rariores autem, qui pabulum salutis gregibus valeant praebere fidelium; Verie few are found, which lead an honest life; and a farre smaller number of such, as are able to minister the food of saluation to their flockes. [ B]

In the next words our Iesuit affirmeth, That if the Church wanted the sanctitie aforesaid, together with Miracles, shee could not be a sufficient witnesse of Truth to Infidels, &c.

This Assertion, concerning the perpetuitie, and absolute ne∣cessitie [ C] of Miracles in all Ages, is repugnant to the Fathers b, and to many learned Papists, and it is voluntarily affirmed by our Aduersarie.

First, If the gift and power of Miracles were perpetuall, and inseparable from the true 〈◊〉〈◊〉 in all Ages, this would appeare by some reuelation, or promise of holy Scripture, as well as other gifts and priuiledges of the same. But there is no [ D] reuelation, or promise, concerning perpetuitie of the gift of Miracles, more than of the gift of Tongues, or of Prophesie, or the giuing of the Holy Ghost, by imposition of Hands c, &c. And these gifts were neuer promised in the Scripture to be perpetuall, and are long since ceased. August. Retrac. Lib. 1. cap. 13.

Secondly, The Fathers which liued since the foure hundreth yeere, affirme, That outward Miracles, such as the Apostles

wrought, were 〈◊〉〈◊〉 a in their dayes, and not absolutely neces∣sarie [ A] for after times: Gregor. Moral. 27. cap. 11. & Lib. 34. cap. 2. & super Euang. Hom. 29. August. d. vera Relig. cap. 25. & d. Ciuit. Dei, Lib. 22. cap. 8. & sup. Psal. 130. Chrysost. in Matth. Hom. 4. & Imperfect. in Matth. Hom. 49. & sup. 1. Timoth. Hom. 10.

Thirdly, Many learned Papists hold, That the gift of Mira∣cles [ B] is rare, and vnnecessarie, in these later times: Abulensis, Le∣uit. cap. 9. q. 14 b, Trithemias Abbas, Lib. 8. Q. ad Imperat. Max. q. 3. Roffensis, c. Luther. a. Captiu. Babylon. c. 10. n. 4. pag. 81. Acosta, d. Procur. Indorum Salut. Lib. 2. cap. 8. pag. 218 c. Stella in Luc. cap. 11. Cornel. Muss. Conc. Dominic. Pentecost. pag. 412. And some of them censure the reporters of Miracles, as Im∣postors, and grosse Fabulers and Lyars. Gerson. Lib. c. Sect. Flagellantium. Canus, Loc. Lib. 11. cap. 6 d. Ludouicus Viues, Erasmus, Occham, Espenceus e.

Fourthly, If Infidels cannot be assured, that the Wonders which they outwardly behold, are the workes of the true God f, and if the same may be the illusions of the Deuill g; then the operations of such Miracles can be no infallible argu∣ment of Veritie, and consequently, no meanes of conuerting Infidels. But Bellarmine affirmeth h, That before the approba∣tion [ D] of the Church (which Infidels know not) it is not euident and certaine by Faith, concerning any Miracle, that the same is true, and Diuine; and it is possible for the same to be an illusion of Sathan.

Notes

• a

  Bannes. 22. q. 1. ar. 10. p. 101. Sum∣mus Pontifex rati∣one status & obli∣gationis dicitursan∣ctissimus licet actu non sit talis. Sym∣mechus, Papa, d. 40. cap. 1. Non nos. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Can. Miss. Lect. 49. &c.
• b

  〈◊〉〈◊〉. Episc. Zamor. Speculum, vit. Lib. 2. cap. 20. pag. 316.
• a

  Laur. Iust. d. compunct & planct. Christi, pag. 575. Clericorum 〈◊〉〈◊〉 maxima pars, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 iacet voluptatibus, & be∣stiarum more, quasi degentium parum ab illa secularium illorum conuersatio distat. Incedunt quotidie per plateas, &c. Theatris & spectaculis intersunt & 〈◊〉〈◊〉 vacant & nugis, &c. tanquam extranei vineam Domini derelinquunt, inemendabiles permanent, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 gerunt cor, obturatas habent aures, sine intellectu sunt syllabarum, tantum proferentes 〈◊〉〈◊〉, ab omni spi∣rituali deficiunt gustu.
• b

  August. sup. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 130. Nec ideo mo∣do non datur spiri∣tus sanctus, quia linguis non loquuntur qui credunt. Ideo enim 〈◊〉〈◊〉 oportebat vt linguis loquerentur, vt significarent omnes gen∣tes credituras, vbi impletum est quod significabatur, miraculum ablatum est.
• c

  August. c. Don∣lib. 3. c. 16. Neque 〈◊〉〈◊〉 & 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 attestantibus, per manus 〈◊〉〈◊〉 modo datur Spiritus Sanctus, &c. Xauer. lib. 3. ep. 5. Si nos linguam calleremus Iaponicam, non 〈◊〉〈◊〉 quin 〈◊〉〈◊〉 fierent Christiani, faxit Deus vt breui eam addiscamus, tum demum aliquam Christianae Rei 〈◊〉〈◊〉 operam, nam 〈◊〉〈◊〉 quidem inter eos tanquam mutae 〈◊〉〈◊〉 versamur. Greg. Moral. lib. 34. c. 3. Stunic. d. Relig. lib. 1. c. 14. Modo a nobis signa atque Prodigia non sunt postulanda, &c. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Summa. praedic. Ver. Fides, [ E] art. 9. Delrio. Disq. Mag. to. 2. lib. 4. c. 4. quaest. 5. sect. 2. pa. 683.
• a

  Chrys. in 1. Co∣rinth. Hom. 6. Mo∣ral. Quanto certio∣res & magis neces∣sariae res sunt, tanto fides est minor, & hoc est 〈◊〉〈◊〉 signa in praesentia non fiant. Idem, sup. Ioh. Hom. 23. Sunt sane & hac nostra aetate qui quaerant, quare & nunc figna non fiunt? Si fidelis es vt 〈◊〉〈◊〉, si Chri∣stum diligis vt diligendus est, non indiges signis, signa enim in credulis dantur.
• b

  Abul. Leuit. 9. q. 14. In 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Ecclesia 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ista necessaria, ad intro∣ducendam fidé E∣uangelij, nunc au∣tem quia sufficien∣ter introducta est, non oportet mira∣cula vlla esse.
• c

  Acosta. Non so∣lum Signorum vis [ C] nostris temporibus deest, verum pro ijs etiam scelera vbique vigent.
• d

  〈◊〉〈◊〉. Nec ego hic libri illius authorem excuso qui speculum exemplorum scribitur, nec historiae eius quae Legenda aurea nuncupatur. In illo enim mira∣culorum monstra saepius quam vera miracula legas. Hanc scripsit homo ferrei oris & plumbei pectoris.
• e

  Espenc. in 2. Timoth. 4. Digr. 21. pa. 150. &c.
• f

  Acost. d. Proc. Indor. Sal. li. 2. c. 9. Et si in praesentia signa viderentur, quis tamen persua∣deret? quis exter∣norum aures nobis accomodaret, cum tantopere increbre∣scat malitia?
• g

  〈◊〉〈◊〉. sup. Ex∣od. cap. 7. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 p. 11. Hinc aperte cognoscitur, multa videri miracula, quae non sunt, & proprium esse Diaboli, &c. simulare Prophetiam, & miracula.
• h

  Bellarm. d. Eccles. lib. 4. cap. 14. Ante probationem Ecclesiae non est euidens aut certum, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 fidei de vilo 〈◊〉〈◊〉, quod sit verum miraculum. Non constat 〈◊〉〈◊〉 certitudine cui non possit subesse falsum non esse illusionem 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Acosta, d. Proc. Indor. Sal. lib. 2. cap. 9. Denique quid magnorum signorum consirmatione opus est, vbi potius 〈◊〉〈◊〉 acutior 〈◊〉〈◊〉, quae altitudinem doctrinae nostrae aliqua 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉? Greg. val. sup. Thom. tom. 3. Disp. 1. q. 1. punct. 4. pag. 99. Ipsa miracula per se, non ef∣ficiunt certitudinem infallibilem de doctrina, &c. Biel. in Can. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Lect. 49. X. Miracula 〈◊〉〈◊〉 [ E] fiunt operatione Daemonum, ad fallendum inordinatos cultores, Deo permittente, & exigente talium infide∣litate.