A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*

ANSVVER.

Foure texts of Scripture are produced, to proue, that it is the most important controuersie of all other, to know whether the Roman Church be the true Church: but neither are the places of Scripture expounded rightly, neither is the Iesuits islation from them consequent or firme.

1 Although it were granted that the totall certaintie of Chri∣stiantie [ C] dependeth vpon the Church, yet because the Roman Church is not the whole Church, but onely a part and member thereof, Rom. 1, 6. and such a member as may erre a 1.1 and proue vn∣sound, Rom. 11, 22. The knowledge of the state and qualitie of that Church, cannot be simply necessarie, and consequently not a matter of greatest importance to be vnderstood.

2 The places of Scripture, 1. Tim. 3, 15. Math. 16, 18. Esay 2, 1. Dan. 2, 35. proue not the question. The first place, to wit Math. 16, 18. is expounded by manie interpreters of Christ himselfe, b 1.2 and by the most, of the faith which S. Peter confessed touching Christ. c 1.3 And our Sauiour affirmeth not in this Text, that the Ro∣man [ D] Church of euerie age is a Rocke; but that the Church of right beleeuers is builded vpon a Rocke, d 1.4 and so the Church is one thing, and the Rocke another, because nothing is builded vpon it selfe.

The second place 1. Tim. 3, 15. 〈◊〉〈◊〉, that the Church which is the house of the liuing God is, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 the pillar and ground of Truth. 1. If by the Church we vnderstand the Catholicke Church, as it containeth the holie Apostles, e 1.5 then this commendation agreeth fully and perfectly to it, in

respect of the Apostles, who were led into all Truth, Iohn 16, 13. [ A] and which taught whilest they 〈◊〉〈◊〉, all Truth, and they do at this present day, in the Scripture, teach the fulnesse of Truth. a 1.6 2. If by the Church we vnderstand the Church of Christ, liuing after the Apostles, the same is by office and calling the pillar and ground of Truth in all ages. And some part or other thereof 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 Truth of God 〈◊〉〈◊〉 to saluati∣on. b 1.7 But the present Church is not 〈◊〉〈◊〉 and simply, in all things, the pillar and ground of Truth, but so farre onely as it teacheth the doctrine reuealed by the holie Ghost, and groun∣deth her faith vpon the word of God: c 1.8 and this is proued, be∣cause [ B] the Church Apostolicall was free from all errour, but suc∣ceeding Pastors and Doctors may erre in Ecclesiasticall censures, d 1.9 in degrees legislatiue, e 1.10 in sermons, disputations, and other tra∣ctats (as our Aduersaries themselues f 1.11 confesse;) and they which propugne the infallible authoritie of the present Church, re∣straine the same to the Pope and Councell (of which S. Paul is silent, 1. Tim. 3, 15.) And from hence I inferre, That the Church wherein the Apostles taught and gouerned, was the ground and pillar of Truth, fully, intirely, and in all things: But the present [ C] Church is so, with limitation, conditionally, and so farre forth onely, as it deliuereth the Apostles doctrine. Lastly, the Roman Church can challenge no greater priuiledge of Infallibilitie from this Scripture, than the church of Ephesus, g 1.12 of which the Apostle speaketh litterally in the said Text. But although the Church of Ephesus was by office the pillar and ground of Truth, yet the same did afterwards degenerate and depart from the right Faith; which argueth, that particular Churches, such as were the Ro∣man, Ephesine, Corinthian, &c. are not in such sort the pillar and ground of Truth, as that they are in no danger of errour h 1.13. [ D]

The other two places Esay 2, 1. Dan. 2, 35. are principally vn∣derstood of Christ i 1.14 and his Apostles, and they proue not the Ie∣suits position, which is, It is the most important controuersie of all other, to know whether the Roman Church is the true Church; for the present [ E] Church of Rome is a Molehill, and not the Mountaine prophesi∣ed of Esay 2. the same filleth not the whole world, but onely a small part of the world; neither did the same antiently, for 500 yeares at the least, fill the whole world, for many people, both in

the East and West were Christians, without depending vpon it: [ A] neither is the same alwaies illustrious for Vertue and Truth, but sometimes notorious for Superstition and Vice a 1.15. If our Adnersa∣ries will contend, That there is in all ages avisible Church, like vnto a great Mountaine filling the whole world, vpon the top whereof standeth the Tradition of all true doctrine, conspicuous and illustrious. 1. The places of Esay and Daniell affirme not this, concerning all times and ages of the Church. 2. The Scrip∣tures foretell a large reuolt and apostasie from heauenly trueth b 1.16. 3. Our Aduersaries themselues acknowledge, that the outward face of the visible Church, at some times hath beene, and againe [ B] may be, miserably polluted with foule and enormious scandals, and abominations c 1.17

Notes

• a 1.1

  Franscisc. Pi∣cus, Theorem 13. iuxtà 〈◊〉〈◊〉 quorundam & ju∣ris interpretum a∣liquornm dogma∣ta, fieri posset vt Rom. Ecclesia quae particularis Eccle∣sia est contrà 〈◊〉〈◊〉 distincta, in side aberraret.
• b 1.2

  Haimo & Ly∣ra super Math. 16. Glesia Gratian. Causa 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 1. cap. Omnibus consid. Super hanc petra id est, Christum. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. sup. Ephes. 2. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 20. Super hane petram, id est, su∣per me aedificabo Ecclesiam meam.
• c 1.3

  August. d. verb. Dom. Serm. 13. Idem sup. Ioh. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 124. Orig. sup 〈◊〉〈◊〉. [ E] 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Ambr. Epist. 38. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 in Luc. li. 6. ca 9 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Galath. ca. 1. & sup. Math. Hom. 55. & 83. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. d. Trin. li. 2. & 6. Gre∣gor. li. 3. Epist. 33. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 in Ioh. c. 21. The 〈◊〉〈◊〉 22. q. 174. ar. 6. Stella in Luc. 9. Concil. Basil. pa. 145. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Contr. Schol. 3.
• d 1.4

  Aug. sup. Psal. 60. vt 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Ecclesia super petram, qui factus est petra, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 andi 〈◊〉〈◊〉, petra 〈◊〉〈◊〉 erat Christus, in illo ergo aedificati 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• e 1.5

  Occham Dial. li. 1. c. 4. part. 1. Dried. d. Dog Eccles. li. 2. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 58 Generale Concilium Pape, Cardinalium, Episcoporum, Doctorum, in Scripturis propheticis 〈◊〉〈◊〉, non est 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 authoritatis quantae fucrit 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 Collegium.
• a 1.6

  Aug. sup. Epist. Ioh. tr. 3. Chrys. sup. Ro. Hom. 30. Greg. Mor. l. 18. c. 14. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Offic. l. 1. c. 23. Vincent. Lir. c. Haer. c. 41.
• b 1.7

  Dried. d. Ec∣cles. Dog. li. 2. ca. 3. pa. 58. Glossa Inter∣lin. sup. Math. 16. v. 18. Turrecrem. Sum. d. Eccles. li. 2. ca. 91. Alphons. Castro. d. punit. Haer. li. 1. c. 5
• c 1.8

  Lorca. 22ae. Disp. 37. n. 15. Bel∣larm. d. verb. Dei li. 4. c. 9. Nihil est de fide nisi quod Deus per Apostolos aut Prophetas reuela∣uit.
• d 1.9

  Panormit. in 5. Decret. d. Sent. Excom. ca. 28. Iudi∣tium Dei, veritati quae nec fallit nec fallitur semper 〈◊〉〈◊〉, 〈◊◊◊〉〈◊◊◊〉 a∣liquandò sequitur 〈◊〉〈◊〉 quae sae∣pèfallit & 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• e 1.10

  Mych. Medin. d. Rect. in Deum fid. li. 5. c. 11.
• f 1.11

  〈◊〉〈◊〉. d. Pon∣tif. li. 4. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Carbo. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Theol. li. 4. c. 18 & li. 5. c. 8. Ex 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Coneilijs 〈◊〉〈◊〉 illa sunt ni fuerint approbatione 〈◊〉〈◊〉 munita, nullum 〈◊◊◊◊〉〈◊◊◊◊〉 omnia hujus generis 〈◊〉〈◊〉 in omnibus errare possunt.
• g 1.12

  Greg. li. 6. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 37. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 multisint Apostoli pro ipso tamen principatu sola Apostolorum principis sedes, in authoritate conua∣lult, quae in tribus locis 〈◊〉〈◊〉 est. Ipse enim sublimauit sedem in qua etiam quiescere & presentem vitam finire 〈◊〉〈◊〉 est. Ipse 〈◊〉〈◊〉 sedem in qua Euangelistam 〈◊〉〈◊〉 misit, ipse firmauit sedem in qua septem annis 〈◊〉〈◊〉 discessurus sedit. Cum ergò vnius atquèvna sit sedes cui ex authoritate diuina tres nunc Episcopi praesidét 〈◊〉〈◊〉 de vobis boni audio, hoc mihi imputo.
• h 1.13

  Occham Dial. p. 1. li. 2. c. 4. Sancti stante charitate possunt 〈1 line〉〈1 line〉 veritatem &c. Error qui 〈◊〉〈◊〉 non habet, non obuiat sanctitati.
• i 1.14

  Aug. Psalm. 45. Erit in 〈◊〉〈◊〉 dicbus 〈◊〉〈◊〉 mons Domini, sed 〈◊〉〈◊〉 mons super ali∣os montes 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉. Quià & Aposto∣li montes, portan∣tes hunc montem.
• a 1.15

  Francisco Picus Orat. ad. Leo 10. Cerrè exiquus Dei cultus nulla bene viuendi ratio at{que} institutio, nullus pudor, nulla mo∣destia, justitia vel in odium vel in gratiam declina∣uit, pietas in super∣stitioné penè pro∣cubuit palamquè in 〈◊〉〈◊〉 homi∣nú ordmibus 〈◊〉〈◊〉, &c. Sacras aedes & templa Le∣nonibus & Cata∣mytis commissa quam nesarijs lupis optimi pastoris ouilia demandata &c.
• b 1.16

  1. Tim 4, 1, 2. 2. Thess. 2, 2.
• c 1.17

  Greg. Vat. 3. pa. 187. Errorum Schysmatum, persecutionum fluctibus ita agitari potest vt imperitis sit 〈◊〉〈◊〉 difficilis 〈◊〉〈◊〉 exteriorem pompam habeat. Praefat. O G ad orat. Francise. Pic. Mirandul. Cum infiniti abusus Schysmata quo{que} & Haereses per totum nunc Christianum orbem inualescant. Laurent. Iustinian. d. Compunct. 575. Declinaue∣runt prorsus omnes Ecclesiae status: qui spiritualia sunt corporis Christi membra:ex quibus nonnulli alienati sunt ab vtero matris suae, & loquuntur falsa: aliqui verò abierunt retrorsum, carnis defideria sectantes, seipsos aman∣tes, & temporalia lucra quaerentes, honorum cupidiscelesti adulteri & miseri. Ista nam{que} vigent, nedum in inferio∣ribus, verum etiàm in mediocribus, & sublimioribus membris adeo vt confusa videantur vniuersa vt à planta pe∣dis vsque ad verticem capitis, in hoc corpore spiritualis, non appare at sanitas &c. Petrus Leidens. Epist. ad Cle∣ment. [ C] 7. antè opera Dionis. Carthus. Quid in Ecclesia non est 〈◊〉〈◊〉, quid non corruptum, quid non inuer∣sum? quid inter Ecclesiasticos integrum hodiè 〈◊〉〈◊〉 &c.