A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*
White, Francis, 1564?-1638., Laud, William, 1573-1645., Baylie, Richard, b. 1585 or 6, attributed name., Cockson, Thomas, engraver., Fisher, John, 1569-1641.

ANSVVER.

If the second part of the Antecedent, to wit, And the Scrip∣tures of the new Testament, are beleeued to come from the Apostles Page  13 vpon the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 Tradition vnwritten, bee vnderstood [ A] without any further explication or addition, then the sequell of the Maior is denied: and if onely, or principally, bee added to vn∣written Tradition, then the Assumption is false.

First, although the Scriptures of the new Testament, are be∣leeued to come from the Apostles, vpon the voyce of perpetuall Tradition, yet because they are not beleeued thus to descend by the said voyce, as vpon the onely or principall ground, therefore it is inconsequent to inferre, our resolution that our faith is Apo∣stolicall, stayeth lastly and finally vpon Tradition.

If the Argument be reduced to a Categoricall forme, the de∣fect [ B] will easily appeare:

That vpon whose voyce the Scriptures of the new Testament are beleeued to come from the Apostles, is the grouud whereupon our faith lastly and finally stayeth.

Perpetuall Tradition, is that vpon whose voyce the Scriptures of the new Testament are beleeued to come from the Apostles.

Therefore perpetuall Tradition is the ground [ C] whereupon our faith lastly and finally stayeth.

In this Argument the Maior proposition is false, for that is not alwayes the last ground of Resolution, vpon whose voyce and testimony we doe first of all, or prioritate or dinis, vel temporis, in priority of time, or order, beleeue things: because there may be other grounds of beleefe, equall, or of greater authoritie than the first voyce; and the first voyce vpon which we beleeue b, may be only an introduction or motiue of credibility. For example: One may beleeue that Moses or the Prophets were the Au∣thors [ D] of the Scriptures of the old Testament, vpon the voyce and testimony of the Iewes, yet this testimony is not the last ground of resolution, &c. One may beleeue vpon the testimony of Iose∣phus, c That Iesus Christ was a wise man, yea more than a man, and that hee wrought many great miracles, and was crucified, and appeared againe the third day aliue, and was honoured by Iewes and Gentiles: yet this voyce and Testimony of Iosephus is not the finall ground of faiths resolution. Page  14 If 〈◊〉 bee taken to these 〈◊〉, that they proceed [ A] 〈◊〉 from humane 〈◊〉, whereas the voyce of 〈◊◊〉 is 〈◊〉; I 〈◊〉 ere two things.

First, that the 〈◊〉 and 〈◊◊〉 of faith, is not alwayes made into that 〈◊◊〉, vpon whose voyce and 〈◊〉 〈1 line〉 as appeareth by St. Iohn Baptist, for 〈1 line〉 vpon his voyce and 〈◊〉, which did not finally and principally 〈◊〉 their 〈◊〉 his 〈◊◊〉, but into the voyce of Christ him∣selfe, Iohn 5. 33, 36.

Secondly, although the vocall Tradition of the Apostles [ B] themselues, concerning the Scriptures of the new Testament, when they deliuered or commended the same a to their imme∣diate hearers, was totally and perfectly diuine, both in regard of the matter testified, and in respect of their owne persons who were witnesses immediatly sent and inspired of God; yet the subsequent History, and report of this former, made by those which were remote from the Apostles age, is not simply and per∣fectly diuine, but onely in part, for when it faithfully reporteth that which the Apostles said and did, it is diuine in regard of the matter and thing testified, but is humane b in regard of the quality [ C] of the witnesses, and the manner of testification, because these suc∣ceeding witnesses were not equall in verity to the holy Apostles, 〈◊〉 free from possibility of errour, nor such as immediatly heard the Apostles. Hereupon Aquinas himselfe holdeth, c that our faith doth onely rest vpon those reuelations which the Authours of the holy Scriptures published: and Durand d with many other Schoole∣men e saith, that the faith which is grounded vpon the approba∣tion of the Church is onely acquisite. f And if this be true, then because the credit of vnwritten Traditions, dependeth in respect of vs, vpon the authority of the Church since the Apostles, [ D] (which Churches voyce being not formally diuine, can of it selfe onely produce acquisite faith) the last and finall resolution of di∣uine faith, cannot bee made into the voyce of Tradition vnwrit∣ten. And thus much concerning the sequel of the Maior pro∣position.

But if the Iesuite, when he saith, the Scriptures of the new Testa∣ment are beleeued to come from the Apostles, vpon the voyce of perpetu∣all Tradition vnwritten, doe means that the said Scriptures are beleeued Page  15 to 〈◊〉 from the Apostles, vpon the voyce of vnwritten Tradition, [ A] 〈◊◊◊〉, then the assumption is false: for they are 〈◊〉 to come from the Apostles by written Tradition, as well as by vnwritten, and more principally vpon the voyce of the A∣postles, speaking in and by their Scriptures, than vpon the onely testimony of vnwritten Tradition.

It is vsuall and common for one man to certifie another, of such matters as he desireth he should know, by an Epistle or wri∣ting: So likewise the holy Apostles desiring a that all the world, for whose instruction they wrote, should know that these Scrip∣tures are their worke, haue declared the same by their owne testi∣monie, [ B] recorded in those bookes. St. Iohn affirmes, that hee is the Author of his Gospell, and of the Reuelation, Iohn 21, 24. Reuel. 1, 4. St. Paul and other Apostles doe the like concerning the Epistles, Rom. 1, 1. 2. Cor. 10, 10. Collos. 4. 18. 1. Pet. 1, 1. Iam. 1, 1. Iude v. 1. And that the holy Apostles and Euangelists doe speake vnto people of all ages by their bookes and writings, is affirmed by the Fathers: St. August. saith, b Ipsum Paulum audi, &c. Heare thou, euen Paul himselfe. St. Chrysost. c If thou desirest, thou mayest heare Paul, Peter, Iohn, and the whole company of the Prophets speaking vnto thee, take the bookes of these blessed ones into thine hands, reade their [ C] Scriptures, and thou mayest heare, not Paul onely, but euen Pauls Lord speaking vnto thee by Pauls mouth.

But it is obiected against this, by Bellarmine and others, d that counterfeit Authours may speake in the name and person of the Apostles; to wit, a Bastard Hereticke, in the name of St. Bartho∣lomew, or St. Peter, &c.

I answere with St. Augustine, e the same may be done in all hu∣mane, and ecclesiasticall writings, and yet sufficient meanes are found, partly in the History of times, partly in the writings of euery Authour, to confute Impostors. And concerning the holy [ D] Scriptures, wee haue two meanes to know their Authours: the one Ecclesiasticall, to wit, the perpetuall History of the Church, since the Apostles departure, f whereby is produced a morall persuasion and credibilitie, than which none can bee greater in that kinde, by reason of the antiquity, number, consent, and sanctitie of the witnesses which testifie this: the other totally di∣uine, g to wit, the matter, and forme of Doctrine contained in the Page  16 〈1 line〉 the said bookes to be 〈◊〉 [ A] and if they be 〈1 line〉 can speake in them. And that 〈1 line〉 within those bookes, is affirmed by the 〈1 line〉 〈◊〉 Among which 〈◊〉 〈1 line〉 are taken from the in∣ternall a matter and maiesty of the bookes; and Gregory Valence b 〈1 line〉 contained in the same Scripture, &c. And 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c, that the 〈◊〉 of God is seene by faith in the holy 〈1 line〉 d faith, The Scripture is a faire 〈◊〉〈1 line〉. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 e You haue before [ B] 〈1 line〉, 2. Pet. 1. 19. And 〈◊〉 August. f [ C] 〈1 line〉. And therefore, as a 〈◊〉 or 〈◊◊〉 others, by the same light or 〈◊〉 manifests it selfe g: so the holy Scripture inlightning the Church, demonstrates his owne 〈◊〉 and vertue. And thus 〈◊〉 we be first directed and holpen by vnwritten Tradition to know the Scriptures, yet the Tradition of the present Church, is 〈◊〉 the onely last and principall ground whereunto we resolue 〈◊〉.

If the Iesuits Argument be retorted vpon himselfe, it will demonstrate, that our Faith is finally resolued into holy Scrip∣ture, [ D] and not into vnwritten Tradition h; for inuerting 〈◊〉 order of the 〈◊〉, and retaining the matter, I argue as followeth.

If the maine and 〈◊〉 points of Faith are 〈◊〉 to be 〈◊〉, because of the 〈◊〉 of perpetuall Tradition Page  17 vnwritten, and 〈◊〉 Tradition vnwritten is beleeued to [ A] be Apostolicall, because of the authoritie of the Scripture; then our resolution, that our Faith is Apostolicall, resteth finally vp∣on the Scripture.

But the Antecedent is true, Ergo &c.

The Assumption is confirmed two waies.

First, by the practise of Papals which confirme their doctrine of Tradition, by testimonies of Scripture, alledging, 2. Thess. 2. 15. 1. Tim. 6. 20. & 2. Tim. 1. 16.

Secondly, because the credit of Tradition, in respect of vs, dependeth vpon the authoritie of the Church, and the authori∣tie [ B] of the Church vpon the Scriptures.

Both these assertions are maintained by the Papals. First, They say that the authoritie of Tradition, in respect of vs, de∣pendeth vpon the Church. Gretsar. a def. Bellarm. d. verbo Dei, lib. 4. cap. 9. Vitus miletus cont. 〈◊〉. loc. 27. Error. 615. Se∣condly, They confirme the Churches authoritie by the Scrip∣tures, 1. Tim. 3.15. Math. 18.17. Eph. 4. 11, 12, 13, 14. Gregorie Valence tom. 3. disput. 1. punct. 1. pa. 40. & ibid. punct. 7. pa. 327. Dri∣edo. b d. Eccles. dogm. li, 2. c. 3. pa. 59. Stapleton c triplic. c. 15. pa. 179. And thus will they nill they, they are compelled to make holie [ C] Scripture the last and finall resolution of Faith: for if we be∣leeue Tradition vpon the authoritie of the Church, and the Churches authoritie for the Scripture, then we must of 〈◊〉 make the Scripture our last and finall resolution of 〈◊〉 which is the Tenet of the Fathers. S. Chris. sup. Psal. 95. d When any thing is deliuered without the warrant of Scripture, the hearers thought staggereth, sometimes consenting, and then againe 〈◊〉, and another while reiecting the same as 〈◊〉, &c. but when the te∣stimonie of Diuine Voice is deliuered out of the Scripture, it both con∣firmeth the saying of the Speaker, and mind of the Hearer. [ D]