A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*

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A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*
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White, Francis, 1564?-1638.
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London :: Printed by Adam Islip,
1624.
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Subject terms
Fisher, John, 1569-1641 -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800.
Church of England -- Apologetic works -- Early works to 1800.
Catholic Church -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800.
Cite this Item
"A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*." In the digital collection Early English Books Online. https://name.umdl.umich.edu/A15082.0001.001. University of Michigan Library Digital Collections. Accessed May 23, 2024.

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ANSWER.

The true loue of the Church, and of the Saints, is grounded vpon veritie, and not vpon Romish Fables, 2. Epist. Iohn vers. 1. And Communion of Saints, in the Apostles [ E] Creed, in respect of the liuing, is Copartnership in Faith, in Veritie, in the bond of Loue, in pious and charitable Of∣fices and Actions, and in the manifold graces of Christ: and towards the defunct, it is Communion of Loue, Imitation, Hope, and expectation of the same Glory a.

Page 558

But neither Scripture, nor Fathers teach, That the li∣uing [ A] Saints haue Communion with the Saints defunct, by partaking their superabundant Satisfactions, Eph. 4. 15, &c. 1. Ioh. 1.3. Rom. 12.4.

The saying of Dauid, Psal. 119.63. I am partaker with all them that feare thee and keepe thy Commandements a, prooueth, That this holy man made righteous Persons his Friends and Associates, and that he shunned the fellowship of the wicked, Psal. 101.6. But of Communion of Satisfactions, he speaketh not a word. Also what a miserable inference is this, Dauid was partaker of all them which feared God, and kept his Commandements: [ B] Ergo, He was Partaker of their Satisfactions, and those to God∣ward. Is there no other bond, or Act of Fellowship but this onely? Haue all they which feare God and keepe his Com∣mandements, according to the state of this life, superabundant Satisfactions? Yea, How appeareth it that Dauid had need of other mens Satisfactorie deedes? For he was a man after Gods owne heart, full of Grace, and abounding in works of mortifica∣tion, Psal. 6.6. & 102.9. & Psal. 35. 13, yea of that ranke, to wit, a great Prophet b, which our Aduersary himselfe saith, Re∣ceiue not, but Communicate superabundant Satisfactions to [ C] others wanting them.

S. Pauls text, Col. 1.12. speaketh of Partnership of heauenly inheritance c, and not of Satisfactions.

The next place, 2. Cor. 8. 14. is expounded by Pontificians themselues, of Almesdeedes in this life; and the sence (accor∣ding [ D] to Cardinall Caietan d) is, You Corinthians abound with tem∣porall goods, the Saints of Hierusalem are in want: the matter will bee reduced to an equalitie, if your plentie supply their indigencie. But if with Hugo Carensis and Lyra, the latter part of the words should be expounded of Spiritualls, it belongeth to such spirituall gifts as are communicable from one member of the Church Militant in this life, to another, as instruction, exhortation, spe∣ciall prayer, &c. and not to Satisfactions to be made to God by one for another, much lesse of applying such satisfactions of the deceased to the liuing, or to others deceased. The places, Col. 1. 24. 2. Cor. 12. 15. are forced by Romists to speake to purpose [ E] which the Apostle intended not. S. Paul saith, Col. 1. 24. Ire∣ioyce in my sufferings for you, and fill vp or accomplish, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, those things which are behind or wanting, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, e of the affli∣ctions

Page 559

〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, of Christ, in my flesh, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 his body, which is the [ A] Church.

The first part of these words prooueth that S. Paul suffered for the Collossians: But because he might suffer for the confir∣mation of their faith, or as an example of patience a, or by way of persecution, because he preached the Gospell to them b, and other Churches, it cannot be concluded, that hee suffered to make satisfaction for their sinnes.

Secondly, The next words conclude not Satisfaction: for [ B] Christs Afflictions and Passions are of two kinds; Some Perso∣nall, and in his owne flesh; Some, By Sympathie and compassion in his members c. The first are satisfactorie, the second are ex∣emplarie, purgatiue, probatiue, or for the edifying of the Church d. S. Paul supplyed not, or perfected not the first, Esa. 63.3. for then Christs sufferings vpon the Crosse, were imper∣fect: but both S. Paul, and all other iust persons which patiently beare affliction, and indure the Crosse, supply and accomplish that which is yet wanting in Christ, as he is considered in a my∣sticall [ C] vnion to his Church. Christ saith to Saul, Act. 9.4. Saul, Saul, Why persecutest thou me: and v. 5. I am Iesus whom thou per∣secutest. S. Augustine e and S. Gregorie f say, That Christ and the Church are one mysticall Body. Therefore when the members suffer, the head suffers, and the afflictions of the members, are the afflictions of Christ, 2. Cor. 1. 5. 1. Cor. 12. 12.

Page 560

It is also remarkeable, that not onely the Fathers, but the [ A] maior part of Popish Doctors a, expound this Scripture in such sort, that it serueth not at all to maintaine Papall Indul∣gences. And Estius b a moderne Pontifician saith, That whereas 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of his part straine the Text of S. Paul, to prooue Satisfactions and Indulgences, himselfe is of mind, that the said Doctrine cannot effe∣ctually be prooued by this place. The other place, 2. Cor. 12. 15. (I wil verie gladly spend and be spent for you:) or as the Rhe∣mists translate, (I most gladly will bestow, and will my selfe moreouer be bestowed for your soules,) affoordeth no argu∣ment for Satisfactions and Pardons. Caietan, Estius, Iustinian, [ B] and other Popish expositors themselues, deliuer the sence of this Text in manner following c. S. Paul manifesteth his pa∣ternall affection to the Corinthians, saying, I am readie not only as a Father, to bestow all that I haue vpon you (so farre am I from seeking any thing of yours) but also to spend my life for you. Now by what Art or Engine can Papists extort Pardons or Satisfa∣ctions out of this Text? doth it follow, that if Saint Paul be readie to spend himselfe, life, and state, for the good of his flocke: therefore there is a rich stocke, and treasure of super∣abundant Passions and Satisfactions laid vp by S. Paul, to bee [ C] spent by the Corinthians at their need? Surely our Aduersarie intended rather to deride the world, than to giue men satisfa∣ction, when he presented vs with such inconsequent stuffe.

But the Iesuit secondeth his former inference by a testimo∣nie of Origen. I answer: Origen d in the place obiected, spea∣keth of purging sinne it selfe, by the passions of Martyres, and not of the temporall mulct, or paine of sinne onely. But the bloud of Martyres purgeth not sinne it selfe by way of con∣digne

Page 561

Satisfaction (our Aduersaries being witnesses a) but at [ A] the vttermost, by way of Deprecation; now Deprecation and Satisfaction properly taken, are of diuers natures.

The place of S. Augustine a is strained against his meaning, for this Father speaketh of all the members of Christ which suffer for their Masters cause: But in our Aduersaries Tenet, all that suffer for Christ haue not superabundant Satisfactions, but onely some. And this Father is so farre from maintaining [ B] workes of Supererogation, as that he saith, Pro modulo nostro exoluimus quod debemus, & pro posse virium nostrarum, quasi cano∣nem passionum inferimus, &c. According to our small measure we pay that which we are obliged vnto, and according to our power we cast in, as it were, the stint of our passions: but they which pay a stint, and render that whereunto of right they are obliged, haue not superaboundant Passions, or workes of Su∣pererogation.

Notes

  • a

    Aug. d. Temp. Serm. 181. cap. 13.

  • a

    〈◊〉〈◊〉. in Com. AEqūe ego inquit, atque illi te timeo, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 e∣tiam mandata tua obseruo. Vnus e. nim ex illorum numero egosum, qui te maximè ve∣nerantur at{que} ob∣seruant.

  • b

    Reade before the Iesuits words, Pag. 505.

  • c

    Caietan. in Com. Sors San∣ctorum, haereditas est Sanctorum, & est sensus ad habendam partem Haereditatis Sahctorum, hoc est ad participandum haere∣ditatem Sanctorum, quae appellatur sors, quia non ex proprio consilio, non ex proprijs meritis, sed velut sorte, hoc est diuino munere obtigit ita illis, quod non alijs. Dyonis. Carthus. ib. Sortis Sanctorum id est haereditatis Electorum, &c. Lyra, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Card. &c.

  • d

    Caietan. Sup. 2. Cor. 8.14. Ecce aequalitas, vos a∣bundatis tempo∣ralibus facultati∣bus, Sancti in Hie∣rusalem indigent, ad aequalitatē res reducitur, si vestra abundantia sucur∣rit illorum indi∣gentiae Dioni. Car∣thus. ibid.

  • e

    AEstius. in Com. Ea quae reliqua sunt passionum, id est quae posterius adhuc restant per∣soluenda.

  • a

    〈◊〉〈◊〉. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Col. 1. Pro vobis id est pro confir∣matione vestri. Aug. d. Gen. ad. lit. li. 3. ca. 15. Et ex∣empla Demonstranda sunt patientiae ad exempla aliorum.

  • b

    Lira. Col. 1. Licet non predicauerit cis 〈◊〉〈◊〉, predicauit tamen eis per suos Discipulos.

  • c

    Lira. ib. Pas∣siones Christi du∣pliciter dicuntur, vno modo in cor∣pore proprio, in quo suftinuit fa∣mem, sitim, & mortem, & fic ac∣cipiendo, nihil e∣rat ibi ad implen∣dum: alio modo prout patitur in membris suis, qui sunt fideles, secun∣dum quod dicit Act. 9. Saulê, Sau∣lê, quid me perse∣queris. Leo. serm. vlt. d. Pass. Domi∣ni. Passio Domini inquit vsque ad finem perducitur mundi, & sicut in Sanctis suis ipse honoratur, ipse diligitur, & in pau∣peribus ipse pascitur, ipse vestitur: ita in omnibus qui pro iustitia aduersa tollerant, ipse compatitur, &c. [ D] Aug. d. Agon. Christi. ca. 7. Cruciatus corporis, malas animas miserabiliter affligit, bonos autem fortiter purgat. Anselm. in Coloss. 1.29. In carne Christi quam virgo peperit, nihil passionum deest, sed omnes in illa passiones sunt impletae: sed adhuc restat pars passionum eius in mea carne, quas quotidiè tollero pro vniuersali corpore eius quod est Ecclesia. Si enim ab eruditione fidelium cessarem, has passiones ab infide∣libus non sustinerem.

  • d

    Theodor Sup. Colos. ca. 1. Diuinus quoque Apostolus varias perpessiones pro ipso tollerauit, & lubenter sustinuit Gaudio enim inquit in passionibus pro vobis, sciebat enim vitam ex ijs procurari. Dixit autem se adimplere ea quae desunt afflictionum Christi, vt qui quod restat impleat & pro ijs perpessiones sustineat. Restabat autem vt predicaret gentibus & munificum solutis suppeditatorem ostenderet.

  • e

    Aug. in Psal. 30. Conc. 1. Totus Christus, caput & corpus, caputille saluator corporis, qui iam a scendit in coelum, corpus autem Ecclesia quae laborat in terra. Hoc autem corpus nisi connexi∣one Charitatis adhaereret capiti suo, vt vnus fieret ex capite & corpore, non de Coelo quendam perse∣cutorem corripiens diceret: Saulê, Saulê, quid me persequeris? Idem. Psal. 140. Vos inquit Aposto∣lus estis corpus Christi & membra. Si ergo illi caput, nos corpus, vnus homo loquitur, siue caput loquatur, siue membra, vnus Christus loquitur, & capitis est proprium loqui etiam in persona membro∣rum. [ E]

  • f

    Greg. Praef. Moral. ca. 11. Redemptor noster vnam se personam cum sancta Ecclesia quam assumpsit exhibuit. Theophil. Com. Coloss. 1. 24. Adeo diligit vos, vt tanquam non sufficiant priores pas∣siones & afflictiones, post mortem etiam patiatur in meo corpore, nondum enim contentus est morte, sed adhuc inmumera facit. Non igitur seipsum 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Paulus 〈◊〉〈◊〉 dicit, sed monstrare volens quod Christus etiamnum pro ipsis curam gerat.

  • a

    Aquin. 3. q. 48. Art. 5. ad. 2. Di∣cendum quod 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Sanctorum proficiunt Eccle∣siae, non quidem per modum redēp∣tionis, sed per mo∣dum exempli, & 〈◊〉〈◊〉 se∣cundum illud, 2. Cor. Siue tribula∣mur pro vestra ex∣hortatione & sa∣lute. Lira. in Colos. 1.24. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. ib. Adam Sasbot. in Epist. Paul ad Col. cap. 1. Christus non omnia perfe∣cit in corpore suo: non enim sufficit passio ipsius ad cōuersionem gen∣tium, si non prae∣dicetur Euangeli∣um: Quod ergo hic deest passionū Christi, ego adim∣pleo monendo sci∣licet, docēdo, prae∣dicando, quod dū sedulo studeo fa∣cere, multa patior dura & grauia, imo vincula & carceres. Illud (pro corpore eius) hunc habet sensum, vt corpus ipsius quod est Ecclesia perficiatur: hic videtur germanus esse sensus huius loci. B Iustinian. ibid. Pau∣lutius. ibid. Guilliand. sup. Hebr cap. 10.

  • b

    Estius. in Com. ibid. Hinc Theologi quidam putant, ostendi Sanctorum passiones fidelibus prodesse ad remissionem paenarum, quae vocatur indulgentia. Quae quidem Doctrina, Etsi Catholica & Apostolica sit, atque aliunde satis probetur: Ex hoc tamen Apostoli loco, nobis non videtur admodum solide statui posse.

  • c

    Estius. Com. 2. Cor. 12.15. Equidem inquit, lubentissime non solum, vt pater quaecunque habeo vobis impendam, id est impendere paratus sum, tantum abest vt quae vestra sunt quaeram: verum etiam si sit opus, pro vita, & salute vestra, ipse expendar, hoc est, meipsum in [ D] consumptionem, & mortem dare paratus, iuxta illud Saluatoris, bonus pastor animam suam dat pro ouibus suis.

  • d

    Origen. sup. Num. Hom. 10. Quomodo autem & filij eius aufe∣runt peccata San∣ctorum, id est A∣postoli & Martyres, si poterimus ex Scripturis diuinis probare tentabimus. Audi primo Paulum dicen∣tem, libenter enim (inquit) expendam & expendar pro animabus vestris. Pro ijs ergo quibus scribebat expendi se, & immolari dicit Apostolus. Hostia autem cum immolatur ad hoc immolatur, vt corum pro [ E] quibus iugulatur peccata purgentur. De Martyribus artem scribit Iohannes Apostolus in Apoccalipsi, quiá animae eorum qui iugulati sunt propter nomen Domini Iesu adsistant Altari: qui autem adsistit Altari ostenditur fungi Sacerdotis officio. Sacerdotis autem officium est, pro populi Supplicare peccatis: vnde ego vereor ne, forte ex quo Martyres non fiunt, & hostiae Sanctorum non offeruntur pro peccatis nostris, pecca∣torum nostrorum remissionem non mereamur.

  • a

    Zerula. d. In∣dulg. lib. 1. cap. 11. Per Indulgentiam nō remittitur cul∣pa peccati, nec 〈◊◊◊〉〈◊◊◊〉 in temporalem, sed sola temporalis remittitur, tota vel pars. Aquin. Quodlib. 2. ar. 66. & 1.2. q. 87. ar. 3.4. & 4. sent. d. 46. q. 1. ar. 3. Caietan. Opusc. to. 2. q. 4.

  • a

    Aug. super Psalm. 61 Sed de∣bemus intelligere personam nostrā, personā Ecclesiae nostr̄ae, personam corporis Christi. Vnusenim homo cum capite & cor∣pore suo Iesus Christus saluator corporis & mem∣brorum corporis, duo in carne vna, & in voce vna, & in passione vna, & cum transierit in∣iquitas in requie vna, passiones itaque Christi non in solo Christo, imò passiones Christi non nisi in Christo. Si enim Chri∣stum intelligas caput & corpus passiones Christi non nisi in Christo. Si autem Christum intelligas solum [ C] caput, passiones Christi, non nisi in solo Christo, imo in solo capite, vnde dicit quoddam membrum eius Pau∣lus Apostolus, vt suppleam quae desunt pressurarum Christi in carne mea? Si ergo in membris Christi es quicunque homo, Quisquis haec audis, quisquis haec non audis, sed tamen audis si in membris Christi es quicquid pateris ab eis qui non sunt in membris Christi, deerat passionibus Christi. Ideo additur quia 〈◊〉〈◊〉, mensura implens non supersundens. Tantum ergo pateris quantum ex passionibus suis inferendum erat vniuersae passioni Christi, qui passus est in capite nostro, & patitur in membris suis, id est, in nobis ipsis ad communem hauc quasi Rempublicam. Nam quisque pro modulo nostro exoluimus quod debemus & pro posse virium nostrarum quasi canonem passionum inferimus.

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