A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*

IESVIT. [ B]

Against this consent of Fathers, Protestants obiect the Testimonie of Theodoret and Gelasius, who in plaine tearmes affirme, That the substance of Bread and Wine remaines in this holy Eucharist, bringing this as an exam∣ple of the Incarnation, where the Natures of God and man remaine in Christ: Signa mystica (saith Theodoret) * 1.1 post sanctificationem non recedunt à sua natura. And [ C] Gelasius, Non esse desinit substantia vel natura Panis * 1.2 & Vini: I answer, That these Fathers, by the substance of Bread and Wine, vnderstand the naturall qualities that flow from the nature and essence of Bread and Wine; for ordinarily, and in common speech, the naturall accidents and proprieties of a thing are tearmed the nature of the thing. Thus wee say, That to be heauie, and to fall downe∣ward, is the nature of the Stone; to be hot, and to burne, [ D] is the nature of the Fire, which yet are but naturall quali∣ties and properties of Stone and Fire. By this, or rather by a more strange manner of speech, S. Theodote, Bishop * 1.3 of Ancyra, to explicate against Nestorius and Eutyches the coniunction of two Natures in one Person, by the ex∣ample of the Water that Moses conuerted into Bloud, saith, That the Water was not changed in nature, nor did cease to be Water; which in rigor of speech, taking the nature of Water for the substance thereof, as condistinct from the [ E] naturall qualities, is not true. But because Water changed into Bloud, remaines, according to some naturall qualities and properties which it hath common with Bloud, as Moi∣sture,

Liquidnesse, and the like; he the better to sit and ac∣commodate [ A] the similitude, saith, The Water remained accor∣ding to the nature, that is, according to some naturall quali∣ties thereof. For these Fathers bring those similitudes, to declare the Mysterie of the Incarnation against the Heresie of Eutyches, who denied the naturall qualities and proper∣ties of the two Natures of God and man to remaine distinct in the Person of Christ: which Error they reiected, by the example of the Eucharist, where the naturall qualities of [ B] Bread remaine together with the Bodie of Christ in the same Sacrament. Which naturall qualities of Bread, they tearme the nature of Bread (as in some sense they may be tearmed) to the end, that the phrase of two distinct Natures remaining, might seem common to the Mysteries of both the Incarnation and Eucharist, and so the similitude seeme more fit and proper; though the Fathers knew well, that the phrase did not agree to both Mysteries equally in the same sense. Which obscure vttering his mind, is the lesse to be [ C] wondered at in Theodoret, because he doth professe in that place, not to speake plainely, as fearing that some Infidels or Catechumes were present, to whom the Mysterie of Tran∣substantiation was not to be reuealed Non oportet (saith hee) aperte dicere est, enim veresimile adesse aliquos non initiatos.

Much lesse cause haue they to stand vpon the words of S. Augustine, Quod videtur in Altari panis est, quod [ D] etiam occuli renunciant. Quod autem fides postulat panis est corpus Christi: For the sense is, That conse∣crated Bread is Bread in outward apparance, and the na∣turall Accidences of Bread truly remaine, as the eye doth witnesse; but inwardly, and according to the substance, it is not Bread, but the Bodie of Christ, as Faith requireth we beleeue. And it is to be noted, that these words are not extant in the workes of S. Augustine, but alledged by [ E] venerable Bede, a follower of S. Augustines Doctrine; and so it is not likely they are to be vnderstood, but as Bede vnderstood them, who sets downe his mind in these

words: The forme of Bread is seene, but the substance [ A] * 1.4 of Bread is not there, nor any other Bread, but onely that Bread which came downe from Heauen.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Theodoret. Dial. Inconfusus.
• * 1.2

  Gelasius, d. duabus naturis aduers. Eu∣tichet.
• * 1.3

  Hom. d. Natiu. Sai∣uatoris, in Concil-Eph. pa. 3. c. 9.
• * 1.4

  Beda de Mysterio Missae, apud Thom. Waldens. to. 2. c. 8. 2.