A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*

ANSVVER.

YOu lay your foundation of this Article, vpon two apparant vntruths: for the Doctrine and custome of the present [ E] Romane Church, is not onely not agree∣able, but opposite, both to the Doctrine and Practise of the antient Catholicke Church, and also to the custome of other Churches (which are not absolute Protestants.)

First, It is the common voyce of the Fathers, That the Li∣turgie [ A] and Seruice of the Church, was in their dayes, and ought to be vsed in a knowne tongue. Origen saith a 1.1, That in his dayes, euery nation prayed to God in their owne Language, the Grecians in Greeke, the Romanes in Latine, and all other people in their proper tongue. Iustin Martyr b 1.2, Tertullian c 1.3, Clemens A∣lexandrinus d 1.4, affirme, That the Priest and the people prayed ioyntly, and in common in the publicke Seruice, which argueth that the peo∣ple vnderstood the Prayers. And S^t. Cyprian e 1.5 requires, That peoples hearts and words agree, and that they heare and vnderstand themselues, when they pray to God. Saint Basil saith f 1.6, When the [ B] words of Prayer are not vnderstood by them which are present, the minde of the Precant is vnfruitfull, neither doth any man hereby reape any profit: S^t. Chrysostome g 1.7, S^t. Ambrose h 1.8, affirme the like. And S^t. Augustine i 1.9 requireth people to vnderstand what they pray and sing, for if there be onely sound of voyce without sence, they may bee compared to Parrats, Owsells, or Popiniayes. And some of the best learned Papists, to wit, Thomas Aquinas k 1.10, Lyra l 1.11, Cassander m 1.12, acknowledge, That in the Primatiue Church, the common Seruice was vsed in the vulgar tongue. [ C]

Secondly, it is false, according to the Tenet of Bellarmine [ D] himselfe n 1.13, that all other Churches, which differ from the Pro∣testants, haue their publique seruice in Hebrew, Greeke, or La∣tine. Bellonius and Aluares affirme the contrarie of the Arme∣nians o 1.14, and Abissines p 1.15; and Eckius, of the Indians q 1.16; and Sigis∣mundus Baro r 1.17, and Hosius s 1.18, of the Russians; and Ledesma t 1.19, of the Egyptians and Armenians. And AEneus Syluius reporteth, That when Cyrillus u 1.20 and Methodius had conuerted the Saluons vn∣to Christ, & were suitors that they might administer the common. Pray∣ers

and Seruice among them in their vulgar tongue. The Pope in the [ A] Conclaue consulting about this matter, a voice was heard, as it were from Heauen, saying, Let euerie Spirit praise the Lord, and let euerie tongue acknowledge him, and hereupon they were permitted to vse their owne tongue. And it appeareth by the Decretals, that the Roman Church in former times did ordinarily appoint this; for the words of the Canon are a 1.21, For as much as in many places within one Citie and one Diocesse, there be nations mingled to∣gether, speaking diuers tongues, &c. We therefore commaund that the Bishops of such Cities and Diocesses prouide meet men to minister the holy Seruice, according to the diuersitie of their manners and tongues. [ B]

Thirdly, it is repugnant to the nature and end of vocall Prayer b 1.22, that the same should be exercised in a forme of words, which people that pray together vnderstand not; for prayer is an ascending of the mind to God c 1.23: and according to Aquinas d 1.24 and other Schole-men e 1.25, it is an action of the vnderstanding facultie; and in the same, people confesse their sinnes, and request of God such things as they haue need of f 1.26. [ C] They giue thankes for benefits spirituall and temporall, gene∣ral and speciall, conferred vpon them: and the effect of prayer dependeth vpon their inward humiliation, and sence of their wants, 2. Chro. 34.27. Psal. 51.19. and vpon their speciall faith g 1.27 in the diuine promises, Math. 9.28. Marc. 9.23. and Marc. 11.29. And Tertullian saith h 1.28, God is not so much an hearer of the voice, as of the heart: But these things cannot be performed, where people vnderstand not what they confesse, request, or praise God for. And words are appointed to instruct, excite, [ D] and edifie men; and if they vnderstand them not, to what vse serueth vocall prayer i 1.29? for we vse not words to teach God, but to instruct and excite our selues. And hereby the Popish

euasion is answered, wherein they affirme, that euen as When a [ A] Supplication is preferred to a King or Iudge, which the Suppliant vn∣derstandeth not, it is all one in what language soeuer the same be, prefer∣red the Iudge vnderstand it a 1.30: So likewise because God vnderstandeth all languages, it mattereth not though people pray to him in a strange tongue; for our words in vocal prayer concern our selues mutu∣ally & principally: but God himselfe requireth the vnderstan∣ding and affection of our heart. Read S. Augustines words b 1.31 ci∣ted in the margent.

Also the Iewes vnder the Law and the Prophets, prayed in a language which they vnderstood: our Sauiour and his Apo∣stles, and the Primitiue Church did the like, and the gift of languages was bestowed vpon Pastors and people, in common, Act. 2.3.

Also the former Doctrine is so apparant, that some of the best [ C] learned Romists teach, that publicke seruice, in a knowne lan∣guage, is most fruitfull and conuenient. Caietan saith c 1.32, It appea∣reth by S. Pauls Doctrine, that it is better for the edification of the Church, that common Prayers which are made in the hearing of the people, be said in a vulgar tongue, vnderstood indifferently by Priest and people, than in Latine. Lira saith d 1.33, If the people vnderstand the prayer of the Priest, they are better brought to God, and they answere Amen with greater deuotion. And the reason hereof is manifest, for deuotion, compunction, desire, and affection, depend vpon vnderstanding, and follow the same e 1.34, and the more distinct and [ D] particular the vnderstanding of the obiect of these is, the more feruent and perfect the actions are.

Notes

• a 1.1

  Orig. c. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 lib. 8. Germane Christiani, nè vsita∣tis quidem in sacra Scriptura Dei no∣minib' vtuntur in∣tèr praecandum, sed Graeci Graecis, Ro∣mani Romanis, sin∣guliquè praecentur propria lingua, De∣umquè celebrent pro viribus, & om∣nium linguarū Do∣minus, omnib' lin∣guis praecantes ex∣audit, tàm variè lo∣quentes, haud se∣cus quam consonos (vt ità dicam) & v∣nius vocis homines intelligens.
• b 1.2

  Justin. Apol. 2. 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, &c.
• c 1.3

  Tertul. Apol. c. 39. Coimus 〈◊〉〈◊〉 coetum & cogregationem, vt ad Deum quasi manufacta, praecationibus ambiamus orantes.
• d 1.4

  Clem. Alex. Strom. li. 7.
• e 1.5

  Cyp. d. Orat. Dom. n. 22. Quandò stamus ad orationem fratres dilectissimi vigilare & incumbere ad praeces toto corde debemus, &c. Ib. Quomodò te audiri à Deo postulas cum te ipse non audias? &c.
• f 1.6

  Basil. li. Quest. ex Var. Script. loc. q. 278. Cum ignota fuerint praesentibus verba orationis, in fructuosa est mens orantis cum nemo vtilitatem capiat.
• g 1.7

  Chrys. 1. Cor. Hom. 35.
• h 1.8

  Ambros. sup. 1. Cor. c. 14. Quem potest habere 〈◊〉〈◊〉 qui ignorat quae loquatur &c. Imperi∣tus audiens quod nòn intelligit, nescit finem orationis. Quid prodest vt quis lingua loquatur, quam solus scit, vt qui audit nihil proficiat.
• i 1.9

  Aug. sup. Psal. 18. conc. 2.
• k 1.10

  Aquin. sup. 1 Cor. 14. sect. 5.
• l 1.11

  Lira. in 1. Cor. c. 14. Caeterū hic consequentèr idem ostendit in oratione publica. Quià si 〈◊〉〈◊〉 intelligat orationēseu benedictioné Sacerdotis; meliùs reducitur in Deum, & deuoti' respondet amen, &c. Propter quod in Primitiua Ecclesia bene∣dictiones & caetera communia 〈◊〉〈◊〉 in vulgari.
• m 1.12

  〈◊〉〈◊〉. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. ca. 28. Canonicampraecem & impri∣mis Dominici corporis & sanguinis consecrationem ità veteres legebant, vt à populo intelligi, & Amen ac∣clamari posset.
• n 1.13

  Bellarm. Re∣cog. li. d. Verb. Dei, 2. ca. 16. Sunt inter Ruthenos & Arme∣nos Catholici, vt etiàm intèr 〈◊〉〈◊〉 sunt Maronitae Ca∣tholoci, qui tamen diuina officia, non celebrant Graecè, vel Hebraicè, vel Latinè.
• o 1.14

  Petrus. Bel∣lon. [ E] Obseru. li. 3.
• p 1.15

  〈◊〉〈◊〉. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Hist. AEthiop.
• q 1.16

  Eckius. Enchir.
• r 1.17

  Sigism. Baro. hist. Moscou.
• s 1.18

  Ho∣sius. d. Sacr. Vernac. Apud Russos neque Graecae, neque Latinae linguae in sactis vsus est,
• t 1.19

  Ledesm. d. script. ling. vulg. ca. 33.
• u 1.20

  AEneas, Syluius Hist. Bohem. ca. 13. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Cyrillum, cum Romae ageret, Romano pon∣tifici supplicasse, vt Sclauorum lingua eius gentis hominibus, quam 〈◊〉〈◊〉, rem diuinam faciens vti possit. De qua re dum in sacro Senatu disceptaretur, essentquè non patici contradictores, auditam vocem tanquam de Coelo in haec verba missam. Omnis Spiritus laudet Dominum, & omnis lingua confiteatur ei. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 datum Cy∣rillo indultum.
• a 1.21

  Decret. Gre. tit. 31. d. Offic. Iud. Ord. c. 14. Quoniā in plerisquè parti∣bus intrà eandē ci∣uitatem atquè Di∣ocesim, permixti sunt, populi diuer∣sarum linguarum, habentes sub vna side, varios ritus & mores, districte praecipimus, vt Pontifices huiusmodi 〈◊〉〈◊〉 siue diocesium prouideant viros Idoneos, qui secundùm diuersitates rituum & linguarum, diuina illis officia celebrent, & Ecclesiastica Sacramenta ministrent.
• b 1.22

  Gabriel. in Can. Miss. lect. 62. B. Oporter quod vo∣calis oratio, innotes cat populo, pro quo offertur. Quod 〈◊〉〈◊〉 non potest, nisi sit vocalis. Debet nā∣què se populus in hac Ministris Ec∣clesiae conformari. Ipsum Deūsecundū modum sibi possi∣bilem deprecando. Et ideo rationabi∣litèr statuit Eccle∣sia, vt Ministri Ec∣clesiae 〈◊〉〈◊〉 o∣rationes etiàm alta voce pronuncient, vt ad notitiam om∣nium poterint per∣uenire. The ends of vocall prayer set downe by Biel. 1. Excitatio interio∣ris Deuotionis, 2. Mentis illuminatio. 3. Facilior recordatio rerum tempore orandi. 4. Mentis ab euagatione custodia. 5. Plenior debiti redditio, hoc est mente & corpore. 6. Redundantia quaedā ab anima in corpus, ex vehementi affectione, & deuotione. 7. Iustructio proximorū. Aquin. sup. 1. Cor. 14. Ille qui intelligit, reficitur & quantum ad intellectum, & quantum ad affectum: sed 〈◊〉〈◊〉 eius qui non intelligit, est sine fructu refectionis. Ib. Quantum ad fructum deuotionis spiritualis, priua∣tur qui non attendit ad ea, quae orat seu non intelligit.
• c 1.23

  Damasc. d. fid. lib. 3. cap. 24. Clem. Alex. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 lib. 7.
• d 1.24

  Aquin. 22. q. 83. ar. 1.
• e 1.25

  Caiet. Ib. ar. 1. Richard. 4. d. 15. art. 4. q. 1. Gabr. in Can. Miss. Lect. 61. Nauar. En∣chir. c. 1. n. 8.13. Azor. Moral. Instit. 1. li. 9. ca. 29. q. 3. Suar. d. Orat. c. 3. Nugnus. in 3. q. 85. ar. 4. Dub. 1. ad. 6.
• f 1.26

  A∣lex. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. 4. q. 25. m. 1. ar. 1. Oratio est expressio desiderij, propter bonum adipiseendum vel malum remouendum, [ E] informata per verbum interius velexterius. Ib. Resol. Duo sunt necessaria oranti, consideratio propriae miseriae, & 〈◊〉〈◊〉 misericordiae, propria miseria consideranda est, ne pigritet implorare defectuum suorum supplementum. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 misericordia consideranda est, nè de obtinendo quod sibi necessarium est, 〈◊〉〈◊〉.
• g 1.27

  Aug. Epist. 121. Fides, Spes, & Charitas ad Deum perducunt orantem, hoc est credentem, sperantem, 〈◊〉〈◊〉, & quae petat à Domino in Dominica oratione considerantem.
• h 1.28

  Tert. lib. d. Orat. c. 13. Deus 〈◊〉〈◊〉 non vocis sed cordis 〈◊〉〈◊〉, est, sicut conspector.
• i 1.29

  Aug Ep. 121. c. 11. Nobis ergo verba necessaria sunt, quibus 〈◊〉〈◊〉, & inspiciamus quid petamus, non quibus Dominum seu docendum, seu flectendum esse credamus.
• a 1.30

  Ledesm. d. Scrip. Vern. ling. c. 13. Sicut enim qui aliquid à principi∣bus petunt, nihil ad eos attinet, qua lin∣gua mediatores ab eis constituti apud ipsum Principem negotium tractent, &c. Nequè etiā refert, qua lingua patronus, apud Iudicem causam clientis 〈◊〉〈◊〉, &c.
• b 1.31

  Aug. Epist. 121. ca. 11. Nobis ergo verba necessaria sunt quibus commoneamur, & inspiciamus quid petamus, non qui∣bus [ B] Dominum seu docendum seu flectendum esse 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Idem. d. Magist. c. 1. Non opus est locutione cum oramus, id est sonantibus verbis, nisi fortè sicut Sacerdotes faciunt, significandae mentis suae causa, non vt Deus exaudiat, sed vt homines audiant, & consensione quadam per commemorationem, suspendantur in 〈◊〉〈◊〉. Idem. d. Doctr. Chr. lib. 4. cap. 10. Quid prodest locutionis integritas, quam non sequitur intellectus audientis, cum lo∣quendi nulla sit causa, si quod loquimur non intelligunt, propter quos vt intelligant loquimur.
• c 1.32

  Caiet. in 1. Cor. 14. v. 17. Ex hac Pauli Doctrina habetur, quodmeli∣us ad aedificationé Ecclesiae est, Orati∣ones 〈◊〉〈◊〉 quae audiéte populo di∣cuntur dici lingua communi Clericis & populo quam di∣ci Latinè.
• d 1.33

  Lira. in 1. Cor. 14. Si populus in∣telligat orationem Sacerdotis, meliùs reducitur in Deum, & deuotiùs respondet, Amen.
• e 1.34

  Azor. Instit. Moral. tom. 1. lib. 9. c. 34. q. 8. Affectus 〈◊〉〈◊〉 intellectum, vbi autèm nullus earum 〈◊〉〈◊〉 quae petuntur vel dicuntur, habetur intelle∣ctus, aut general tèr tantùm, ibi exiguus assurgit affectus.