A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*

ANSWER.

Our argument which you tearme an emptie shadow, will not so lightly be shaken as you imagine: for if Christ Iesus alone, in the state of the new Testament, is the Mediatour, both of re∣demption and intercession, then no Saint liuing or deceased is a Mediatour, &c. But the first is true, because God hath consti∣tuted Christ to be a Mediatour, and he hath appointed no other [ B] Saint, liuing or defunct to be so. Ergo

Christ Iesus alone in the state of the new Testament, is the Mediatour of Redemption and Intercession.

Then I subsume Papists make Saints deceased partial: Media∣tours, to wit, of Intercession a 1.1. Therefore they yeeld some part of Christ (the sole Mediatour) his office vnto Saints.

The Iesuit answereth, by distinction of Mediatour, princi∣pall, and subordinate, or dependent, saying: That they appoint no Saints Medtatours of the first kind, but onely of the second: And that this is no iniurie to Christ, or encroachment on his office, but an honour to him, and a meanes to apply, or make his Mediation effectuall to vs; and he vseth certaine Paralogismes to conclude this.

First, the Scripture (saith he) allowes, and commands pray∣er [ D] to liuing Saints, &c. but these are not iniurious but honoura∣ble to Christ.

It is answered, That vnlesse the Iesuit aequiuocate, the Scrip∣ture commandeth not inuocation of liuing Saints, but onely the requesting of their charitie and prayers to God for men, Rom. 15.30. Eph. 6.19. Col. 4.3. 1. Thes. 5.25. Heb. 13.18. But the li∣uing are present and conuersant with the liuing, they conioyne their common prayers, Vt deum quasi manufacta, praecationibus ambiant (saith Tertul. Apol. c. 39.) That going to God hand in hand they may intreat him. Besides, inuocation and prayer properly ta∣ken, [ E] praesuppose in them wee pray vnto, vnderstanding the thoughts and motions of the heart: and all religious prayer is a mentall action vnderstood by him, whom men deprecate. But the liuing Saints vnderstand not the secrets of each others

hearts: Therefore, speaking properly, no man prayeth to li∣uing [ A] Saints. Also religious prayer is a Communication with God a 1.2, and a proper worship of God, and an action of Latria b 1.3. Lastly, no precept, or example is extant in holy Scripture, proo∣uing that iust persons did at any time pray to liuing Saints being absent, or to liuing Saints, by Collets, or set formes of publike deuotion, in such manner as Romists doe to Saints deceased. As for petition or request (which is all the Scripture mentions) the same is onely generall and materiall in prayer: and there∣fore we cannot conclude affirmatiuely, saying, They made re∣quest to the Saints liuing, to assist them with their prayers. Er∣go, [ B] they did inuocate and make religious prayers to them, any more, then we may conclude, It is a liuing creature. Ergo, it is a man; It hath one act of prayer, Ergo, it is Prayer; It is a promise, therefore it is a vow, &c.

If it be replyed, The requesting of the liuing to pray for vs, and their supplication according to this request, is not iniurious to Christs office, &c. Ergo, Our Inuocation of Saints deceased, is no iniurie, &c.

We answer: That as in humane and ciuill affaires, it is an in∣iury [ C] to the supreame Magistrate for any of his Subiects to con∣stitute a master of Requests, preferring their suites vnto him without his authoritie: so likewise, it is an iniurie to Christ our Mediatour, for vs men which are wormes of the earth, with∣out warrant and Commission from Gods word, to constitute Saints and Angells, Mediatours of our prayers. And when the Lord of heauen hath giuen vs an all-sufficient Aduocate, and withall hath prescribed the meanes, by which we must haue ac∣cesse vnto this Mediatour: is it not wicked presumption in man, to cancell this sacred ordinance, and to appoint other meanes [ D] of his owne deuising? S. Cyprian saith c 1.4: For men to pray other∣wise than the Lord hath taught, is not onely ignorance, but iniquitie: for he hath said, Ye reiect the Commandement of God, that you may establish your own tradition. And Tertullian d 1.5, They are iustly reproa∣ched with vanitie, because (in prayer) they doe this without any war∣rant from Christ or his Apostles.

In the Court of heauen, he which appoints the supreame, [ E] appoints the subordinate; and as no creature may assume, so no creature may yeeld, either supreame or subordinate iurisdicti∣on to any, in things of this nature, besides, or without Commis∣on from the highest. Therefore the distinction of Mediatours

into supreame and secondarie, founded vpon mans owne In∣uention, [ A] freeth not the Inuentors from impietie against God and Christ, but is such, as if a mortall man should imagine subordinate Creators, Inspirators, yea, subordinate Gods: for the Apostle conioyneth these two as like, One God, one Me∣diator, &c. 1. Timoth. 2. 4, 5.

Notes

• a 1.1

  Bellar. d. Sane. Beat. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. c. 20. Po∣stremo modo, eti∣am 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 mediatores, inter Deum & eos pro quibus orant. Neque est curtimeamus, nomen mediatoris transfer∣re ad Sanctos, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ad eos transferrimus nomen Aduocati & intercessoris, quae Christo 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Rom. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. & 1. Ioh. 2. Biel. in Can. 〈◊〉〈◊〉. lect. 30. K. Non ergo frustra imploramus Sanctos quos non vt Creatores gra∣tiae siue Beatificatoresinuocamus, sed vt Mediatores, quorum meritis & intuitu nobis Deus 〈◊〉〈◊〉 quam ex [ C] nostris accipere sumus minus digni. Jdem. Ex quibus patit preces nostras spem que consequendae 〈◊〉〈◊〉 per mediatores Sanctos in coelo, inanes non esse: sed ordine a Deo instituto, nos ad eorum auxilia 〈◊〉〈◊〉 debere, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 debita veneratione eos semper implorare, vt saluemur 〈◊〉〈◊〉 meritis, atque votis.
• a 1.2

  Chrys. d. Orat. li. 1. Vere cum Dco cōfabulamur, quo∣ties vacamus de∣precationi. Si qui cum Caesare mis∣cent sermones, &c. Multo minus fieri potest vtqui Deum deprecantur, cum co familiariter col∣loquétes, &c. Aug. Psal. 85. Oratio tua locutio est ad De∣um, &c. Chrys. in Genes. Ho. 30. O∣ratio Colloquium est cum Deo.
• b 1.3

  Palud. 4. d. 15. q. 5. n. 4. Gabr. Can. Miss. lect. 61. I. Antonin. Sum. Mor. p. 4. Tit. 5. c. 8. §. 2.
• c 1.4

  Cypr. d. orat. Dom n. 1. Aliter o∣rare quam docuit, non ignoratio sola sit, sed & culpa: quando ipse posu∣erit & dixerit, reijcitis mandatum Dei, vt traditio∣nem vestram statuatis.
• d 1.5

  Tertul. d. orat. c. 12. quibus merito vanitas exprobranda est, siquidem sine vllius aut Dominici, aut Apostolici praecepti authoritate fiunt.