A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*

ANSVVER. [ D]

a You presuppose that, which (notwithstanding your fa∣cing) you will neuer bee able to prooue, to wit, That inno∣cation of Saints, (according to the doctrine and practise of the late Roman Church) hath beene generally, and vniuersally re∣ceiued as an article of faith or necessarie dutie, euer since the dayes of Constantine: neither hath Chemnitius whom you al∣leadge, affirmed this, but rather said the contrarie. First, he saith b, That in the Primitiue Church, vntill two hundred years after Christ, this doctrine and practise was vtterly vnknowne. Secondly, he affirmeth, that about the yeare 240. some seedes [ E] of this doctrine began to be sowne in the Church by Origen c.

Thirdly, He saith expresly a, that for three hundred and fif∣tie yeeres and vpward, the publike practise of Inuocation was vnknowne in the Church: And then about the yeere 370, it began to be spoken of in publicke assemblies, by Basil, Nyssen, and Nazianzen, vpon occasion of their Panegyricall Orations b.

Fourthly, He addeth, c That notwithstanding these Orati∣ons, it was not generally and vniuersally receiued in those [ B] times, but both doubted of, and also reprooued and condem∣ned by some d: and about the 400. yeere, Saint Chrysostome interposed, and laboured to reduce people to the antient forme of Inuocation e. And proceeding in his Historicall Narration, he sheweth out of Nicephorus, lib. 15. cap. 28. that Petrus Gna∣pheus f, Anno 470 (condemned by the first vniuersall Synode, of Heresie) was the first Author among the Grecians, of mix∣ing intercessions to the Virgin Marie with diuine Prayers. Hee affirmeth also, that in Saint Augustines dayes g, Inuocation of Saints was not vsed in the common Seruice of the West [ C] Church. And descending to the 600. yeeres, he saith, Inuoca∣tion of Saints among the Latines, was not brought into the publicke Seruice and Letanies of the Church, vntill the dayes of Pope Gregorie the first.

Lastly, the forme and manner of Saintly Inuocation, in the 600 yeere, differed extreamely from that which was vsed by Papals in latter times: and this is confirmed by Chemnitius i, setting downe verbatim, many Collects and formes of deuo∣tion, vsed in latter dayes, which were antiently vnheard of.

Secondly, The Fathers which you cite in your Margine, to [ A] prooue the Doctrine of Inuocation of Saints and Martyrs, to haue beene a matter of faith, from the dayes of Constantine, are Gregorie Nyssen, S^t. Basil, Theodorit, S^t. Ambrose, S^t. Hierom, and S^t. Augustine: but hauing perused the places, I finde not that these Fathers either deliuered this Doctrine, as matter of Ca∣tholicke Faith, or affirme the Practise thereof to haue beene necessarie and vniuersall; or that they spake of such Wor∣ship and Inuocation of Saints, as is practised in the seruice of your Church. But as places may bee noted in some Fathers, touching inuocation of Saints deceased; or which argue, that [ B] they requested Saints to assist them with their Prayers, at least in generall, and so farre foorth as they had knowledge of their necessities: So likewise other Sentences are found in their wri∣tings, maintaining the sole Inuocation of God by Christ, and condemning Inuocation of Angels and Saints deceased, accor∣ding to the manner now vsed in the Romane Church. Theoderit vpon the Colossians a, cap. 2. condemneth worshipping and Inuocation of Angels. S^t. Ambrose saith, b Tu solus Dominus in∣uocandus es, &c. Thou Lord onely art to bee inuocated. S^t. Hierom, Nullum inuocare, id est, in nos orando vocare nisi Deum de∣bemus: [ C] We ought to inuocate, that is, by Prayer to call into vs none but God. And in another place, c Whatsoeuer I shall vtter seemeth dumbe, because hee (Nepotian) being defunct, heareth me not. S^t. Augustine, Non sit nobis Religio cultus hominum mortuorum: Let not the worship of persons defunct be our Religion. Saint Athanasius, d Nunguam quispiam precaretur aliquid accipere a Pa∣tre & Angelis, vel ab vllis rebus creatis: No man would euer pray to receiue any 〈◊〉〈◊〉 from the Father, and from the Angels, or from any other creature.

Thirdly, That which the Iesuit affirmeth concerning Aerius and Vigilantius, is false: for neither of these is ranked among Heretickes, by Philastrius, Epiphanius, S^t. Augustine, or by any of the antient Fathers, because they denied Inuocation of [ E] Saints departed; and Popish Prateolus himselfe, maketh not this doctrine any of Aerius his errours; and treating of Vigilantius, he produceth onely Lindanus and Hosius (two most partiall Pon∣tificians) affirming him to haue beene condemned of heresie for this cause. Wherefore our Aduersarie prooueth himselfe a

weake Antiquarie, when he affirmeth that Aerius and Vigilan∣tius, [ A] were condemned of heresie, because they denyed Inuoca∣tion of Saints deceased.

Fourthly, The Magdeburgians, which in the third Centurie obserue, Non obscura vestigia, &c, some not very obscure tra∣ces, or footsteps, in the writings of the Doctors of this age, concerning Inuocation of Saints, speake of the least degree and kind of Inuocation, to wit, Compellation; and besides, they probably suspect, that suppositious Sentences haue beene in∣serted into the Bookes of antient Fathers a.

Lastly, Ireneus b stileth the Virgin Marie, The Aduocate of Euah, not in regard of her Intercession for Euah and her chil∣dren, after her decease and departure out of the world; but be∣cause of that which she performed, in beleeuing and obeying the heauenly message which the Angel Gabriel brought vnto her, Luke 1.38. for hereby she became a blessed Instrument of conceiuing and bearing Christ Iesus, and by this obedience the blessed seed was brought into the world, by her, whereby the fall of Euah and her children was repaired. And thus shee was [ C] the Aduocate or Comforter of c Euah and her children, by bea∣ring Christ; and not because she was inuocated, as a Mediator, after her death by Euahs children.

Notes

• a

  Fisher. Beeing able to prooue it by testimonies, vn∣deniable.
• b

  Chemitius Ex∣am. Trid. Conc pa. 3. pa. 195. In primi∣tiua Ecclesia, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ad annos 〈◊〉〈◊〉 post Chri∣stum natum, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 de 〈◊〉〈◊〉 patrocinijs, 〈◊〉〈◊〉, meritis ope, auxilio, & inuocatione Sanctorum in coelis, 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉 fuit: & 〈◊◊◊〉〈◊◊◊〉 fuit sicut oftendimus, ratio venerationis Sanctorum, quam quae postea inuecta est.
• c

  Idem. Illis 〈◊◊〉〈◊◊〉, & ab illo authore circa annum Domini 240. Spargi caeperunt, Seminaria inuo∣cationis Sanctorum.
• a

  Jbid. per an∣nos à nato Christo 350. & amplius, Ecclesia Inuocatio∣nem Sanctorum in publica praxi Igno∣rauit.
• b

  Ibid. Tandem circa annum Domini 370. per Basilium, 〈◊〉〈◊〉, & Nazianzenum, in publicos Ecclesiae conuentus occasione Orationum Panegyricarum inuehi caepit eodem tempore cum ab ijsdem authoribus Monachatus ex AEgypto & Syria in Graeciam introduceretur.
• h Ibid. Atque hactenus Inuocatio Sanctorum, in priuatis preculis regnauit, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 vero hic Gregorius apud Latinos in public as Ecclesiae supplicationes quas Graeco vocabulo 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 vocant, primus intrusisse scri∣bitur. Apud Graecos enim Petrus Gnapheus idem antea tentauit sicut supra notauimus.
• c

  Ibid. Conside∣randum autem est in Historia illorum temporū quod non vbique & ab omni∣bus, pro certis, ve∣ris, & Catholicis dogmatibus recep∣tae fuerint Panegy∣ricae illo declama∣tiones.
• d

  Ibid. Quia ve∣ro Catholicum hoc est sicut Lyrinensis non male definit quod semper, quod vbique & ab omni∣bus fidelibus, ex Scriptura constan∣ter receptum fuit, addenda est & haec obseruatio, quod non dubitatū tan∣tum de Inuocatione Sanctorum fuit istis temporibus, cum ex priuatis vulgi & muliercularum deuotionibus in Ecclesiam inciperet introduci: sed diserte & quidem magno zelo reprehensa, & in Catalogum haereseon relata fuit ab Epiphanio, quiijsdem firme temporibus vixit.
• e

  Ibid. Cumque illis temporibus, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Sancto∣rum quidam assererent, quidam reprehenderent, quidam vero de ea dubitarent, non inutilis erit obseruatio quo∣modo Chrysostomus suam sententiam inter posuerit.
• f

  Ibid. Et memorabile est, ac ad perpetuam rei memori∣am dignū obseruatione, quod Petrus 〈◊〉〈◊〉, qui in quinta vniuersali Synodo, vt Haereticus damnatus fuit, pri∣mus Author & inuentor fuit miscendae Inuocationis Sanctorum, inter publicas Ecclesiae preces. Nicephorus l. 15. [ D] c. 28. Et vt in omni praecatione omni, Dei genetrix nominaretur, & diuinum nomen eius inuocaretur.
• g

  Ibid. pa. 212.
• i

  Ib. From the pag. 145. vnto pag. 173. O Francisce lux so∣laris, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 sin∣gularis iam cum Christo gloriaris, in choro caelestium. Tu sis nobis vitae via, tu pro nobis semper pia. Prode Christo stygmata, &c. [ E] Item. Salue imperatrix gloriosissima peccatricis animae meae spes tutissima Deigenetrix Virgo Maria. Tu post Deū praecipuū & maximum es refugium & gaudium. Item. O Sancta Maria, & omnes sancti & electi Dei, nunc & in hora mortis meae, mihi misero succurite, & Dominum Deum nostrum, vestris meritis & precibus mihi propicium facite. Item. Sancta Maria, perpetua Virgo virginum, mater misericordiae, mater gratiae, spes omniū desolatorū, consolatrix omnium desperantium: O miseratrix miserorum, dulcis consolatio afflictorum, ac mater misericordiarum, deso∣latorū pijssima consolatrix, & in omni necessitate pupillorū promota nutrix: Exaudi praeces meas, & quia in di∣uersis malis & angustijs, propter peccata mea positus sum, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ad quem fugiam, nisi ad te Dominam meam, &c.
• a

  Theod. sup. Col. 2. Synodus quae conuenit Laodi∣ceae, quae est Phry∣giae metropolis, le∣ge prohibuit, ne precarentur Ange∣los: & in hodier∣num vsque diem, li∣cet videre apud il∣los, & eorum finiti∣mos, oratoria sancti Michaelis. Illi ergo hoc consulebant v∣ti{que} humilitate v∣tentes, dicentes, vniuersorū Deum, nec cerni, nec com∣prehendi, nec ad 〈◊〉〈◊〉 posse perueniri & oportere per Angelos diuinam sibi beneuolentiam conciliare.
• b

  Ambr. d. obit. Theo∣dos. [ D] Id. d. Interpellat. l. 3. c. 12. Tu portio mea es, abundas mihi ad omnia, nihil quaesiui aliunde, nisi vt te par∣tem haberem nulli me caelesti vt Gentiles, subdidi Creaturae. Hieron. in. Prouerb. cap. 2.
• c

  Hier. ad Heliodor. Ep. 3. c. 1. Quicquid dixero quia ille non audit mutum videtur. Ib. c. 10. Foelix Nepotianus qui haec non videt haec non audit.
• d

  Athanas. c. Arrian. Orat. 4. Origen. c. Celsum. l. 8. p. 523. Solus adorandus est Deus optimus maxi∣mus: Soli praeces offerendae vnigenito Dei verbo, primogenito craturae totius: Qui vt Pontifex eas ad Deum suum, & nostrum perferat, & Patrem suum, atque omnium iuxta verbum eius viuentium.
• Epiphan. Haeres. 77. Aug. d. Haer. haeres. 53.
• a

  Cent. 4. c. 4. 297. Hinc apparet, malignum spiritum tantorum virorum Scriptis plurima inseruisse, &c. Sicut autem supra monuimus, apparet [ B] 〈◊〉〈◊〉 esse deprauata, & supposita in istorum doctorum Scriptis.
• b

  Iren. li. 5. c. 19. Manifeste ita{que} in sua propria venien∣te Domino, & sua propria cum baiu∣lante conditione, quae baiulatur ab ipso, & recapitula∣tionem eius quae in ligno fuit inobedi∣entiae, per eam quae in ligno est inobe∣dientiam faciente, & seductione illa 〈◊〉〈◊〉, qua seducta est male illa quae iam viro destinata erat: virgo Eua per veritatem Euangelizata est bene ab Angelo iam sub viro virgo Maria. Quemadmodum enim illa per Angelicum Sermonem seducta est, vt effugeret Deum praeuaricata verbum eius, ita & haec per Angelicum 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Euangelizata est, vt portaret Deum, obediens eius verbo. Et sicut illa seducta est vt effugeret Doum, fic haec suasa est obedire Deo, vti virginis Euae, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Maria, fieret Aduocata.
• c

  In Graeco textu proculdubio, fuit nomen 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, quod & Aduocatam & consolatorem significat, vt sit sensus. Quemad. Eua generi hu∣mano fuit in exitium, ita B. Virginem eidem fuisse in solatium, quatenus Christum omnis solatij 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Virgi∣nali suo vtero concepit. Vide Gallas. Not. in Iren. pa. 399.