Fishers folly unfolded: or The vaunting Iesuites vanity discovered in a challenge of his (by him proudly made, but on his part poorely performed.) Vndertaken and answered by George Walker pastor of S. Iohn Euangelist in Watlingstreet London
Walker, George, 1581?-1651., Fisher, John, 1569-1641. aut
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FISHERS folly unfolded: OR THE VAVNTING Iesuits vanitie discovered in a chal∣lenge of his (by him proudly made, but on his part poorely performed) undertaken and answered by GEORGE WALKER Pastor of S. IOHN Euangelist in Watlingstreet LONDON.

IN the hot Moneth of Iune last past, viz. Anno 1623. when the courages of our true-hearted English people were generally much cooled through the ab∣sence of our rising Sunne the il∣lustrious Prince CHARLES then detained too long in Spaine among the Antipodes of our Nation; but the Priests and Iesuites those hot lovers of the Romish Babylon enraged with the lusts of that proud whore, and puffed up with hope of prevailing in this Land, were as busie Page  2 as waspes and hornets about our beehives, and as wolves about our folds seducing our flocks, and sen∣ding generall challenges of disputation to our Shep∣herds every where. It so hapned that Father Fisher the Iesuit, a man as famous for his forwardnesse and impudencie in challenging, as foolish in performance; and of as great esteeme and name among the blinde Papists; as of little worth in himselfe and in the judge∣ment of wise learned men, was by the meanes and procurement of one of his disciples drawne into the lists to fight a single combat with Master Walker above named in manner and forme following.

First, a disciple of his, a desperate Popish Novice, resorting often to the house of an elder brother of his owne who dwelt in Cheapside, and (as the fashion of such seduced Popelings is) railing upon the religion, and vilifying the learning and gifts of Protestants, did most intemperately extoll the Church of Rome, and the learning of her Priests, especially of Fisher the Ie∣suit, whom he did by name praise to the heavens for his disputation with Doctor White before the Kings Majestie, and did not only boast of a glorious victory which there he had obtained, but also did proclaime him a challenger of all Preachers in England, and did dare the most hardie to meet him face to face in any place or before any Auditors, where they might dispute conveniently. A younger brother of his who was a Protestant, and lived in the house with his elder brother, being often assailed and attempted by him, and not able to endure any longer his boasting and da∣ring speeches, did by his elder brother and others im∣portune Master Walker to accept the challenge, which Page  3 he did upon condition that a convenient day might be agreed upon and appointed by both parties. That the challenge is accepted they signifie to their Popish brother, Fishers Novice. He wonders that any dare be so hardie as to yeeld so far in promise, and tels them, that the promise will never be performed, nei∣ther will any Protestant Minister be so bold as to meet his invincible Master Fisher; but being urged and pressed to make a triall, hee brings word at length upon a Satturday at night, that the next Munday the Iesuit Fisher will come to his brothers house to en∣counter with any opposite whomsoever. They send word to Master Walker, who having urgent businesse, desired to have the meeting deferred till the next day, or till the evening of that day, but could not obtaine so much; neverthelesse because he would in no case forgoe that opportunitie of disputation with Fisher, nor give occasion to the insulting Novice to triumph (who upon his excuse of urgent businesse in that day, began to boast that the victorie was gotten, and that he knew and foretold before hand how they should finde it, and that no Protestant durst be so hardie as to meet Fisher in the face) he willingly did lay aside all businesse, and promising to be ready at the time ap∣pointed, sent word to the Iesuit, that if he did not ap∣peare at his owne houre, which was upon Munday at ten of the clocke before noone, he should be judged the coward and left without all excuse. At the houre appointed Master Walker came, and heard nothing of the Iesuit, for he came not till toward dinner time, but then comming with his Novice, who was brother to the master of the house, he was entertained with a Page  4 dinner, till Master Walker was againe sent for. Who about one of the clocke returned, and by the way cal∣led upon Master Burton Pastor of S. Matthewes parish in Friday street, and did request him to goe along with him, and to be a witnesse of the whole cariage of the businesse. At their first entrance Master Fisher com∣plained because they came two against one. Master Burton did assure him that he came onely to be an hea∣rer, and promised that he would not speake nor inter∣meddle, except when both parties should agree to it. Then (divers friends and neighbours to the Master of the house comming in to heare and see what passed) Master Walker began to speake to the Jesuit as fol∣loweth.

Mr. Walker.

Sir, if that fame and report, which you and your friends have raised, and which goeth abroad concer∣ning your worth and learning be true, you must needs be a man able to doe more for the Romish religion, than any other of your fellowes now living, or of your predecessors going before. We who have heard of your bold intrusion into the Court and the presence of our learned King, and of your challenges which you have made and sent to Doctor White, and other men of great learning and note, doe expect from you some extraordinarie grounds and arguments for the Popish religion, and such skill and learning, as hath not beene seene before in any of your profession. Our desire is therefore, that at this time you will make knowne un∣to us some of your best skill, and shew us some of the chiefe grounds upon which you build your faith and religion. And I for my part, if I cannot overthrow Page  5 them by Gods word, will very willingly yeeld unto them, and acknowledge that you have the truth on your side.

The Iesuit at the mention of his great fame and re∣port shewed a kinde of itching delight, and used ne∣ver a word tending by way of modestie to extenuate his learning and gifts; but as one desirous to increase his owne fame, and to justifie the report which the blinde Papists give out concerning his worth, breaks out with a smiling sigh into a Pharisaicall commenda∣tion of himselfe to this effect.

Mr. Fisher.

Indeed I must confesse, that I have alwaies from my childhood loved the truth, and diligently sought after it. Once I was a Protestant (God forgive me) and did with an hungring desire inquire after the truth, but could ne∣ver receive any satisfaction among any sects of Prote∣stants, but spent my labour in vaine, still remaining full of doubts and scruples. Whereupon I did with all humi∣litie, fasting and prayer seeke unto God, and pray unto him, to guide me into the way of truth. Who at length for my humilitie and the sinceritie of my heart, did grant my request, and did draw me unto the Catholike Church, where I found the truth and a sure ground to rest upon, from which I purpose never to be moved, but will hold me to it for ever.

Mr. Burton.

Mr. Burton grieved to heare the Iesuit boasting after such a Pharisaicall manner, could not refraine, but taxed him of pride and hypocrisie for ascribing his calling and his knowledge of the truth and of true re∣ligion (as he termed it) to the merit of his owne humi∣litie, Page  6 sinceritie, and his praiers, which he made before his conversion, while he remained in ignorance.

Mr. Walker.

Mr. Walker also taking hold of his speech desired to ground a disputation upon his words, and offered to prove that the Iesuit did erre most damnably and heretically in the first grounds of his faith and reli∣gion, in that he builded his first calling upon the me∣rit of his owne vertues and of his works which he per∣formed before his calling in the state of ignorance and blindnesse. He also taxed him of manifest absurdi∣tie and contradiction in his speech, in that he first so farre vilified and condemned the Protestant state, and counted it so sinfull and damnable, that he asked for∣givenesse of God for his once being a Protestant: and yet immediatly did attribute his conversion and cal∣ling into the Catholike Church unto the merit of works which in that state he performed. Moreover he charged him with extreame folly and madnesse for abandoning and forsaking that Church & state, where∣in (by his owne confession) he did performe works meritorious, and betaking himselfe to the service and slaverie of the Church of Rome that whore of Baby∣lon, the reward and just wages of whose servants and followers is shewed in Gods word, Revel. 19. to be the wrath of God and eternall vengeance in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone for ever∣more.

For answer to these obiections, the Iesuit com∣plained, that it was uneqvall for two to set against one both at once. And Master Burton desiring to bee ex∣cused for that he could not but out of his zeale reprove Page  7 his palpable boasting of his owne merits, promised to be silent hereafter, if he would fall to disputation with Master Walker. Then the Iesuit proceeded and spake to this effect.

Mr. Fisher.

The Church of Rome, of which I am a member, is the onely true Catholike Church, for it holdeth the same truth which Christ and his Apostles commended to it, and hath not altered nor erred in any maine point, but holds the same still, which all true Catholike and Orthodox Fathers and Doctors did teach, as here is manifestly shewed and proved in this booke by Gualtherius (meaning Gualthe∣rius his Chronographica sacra, which there hee had brought and laid before him on the table) who doth produce plaine testimonies of the Fathers in all ages, from the time of Christ, confirming the maine points of the Roman Ca∣tholike religion, wherein Protestants dissent from Catho∣likes. I doe challenge you to shew the like evidences for the Religion and doctrine which your Church doth hold; which because you cannot doe, it is manifest that you have not the truth, neither are a true Church.

Mr. Walker.

Well Master Fisher, if this be the best ground which you have to build vpon, wee shall easily answer you, and make it appeare that you are not the man which flying fame reports you to be, and that you build on a sandie foundation. I did expect some grounds and arguments gathered out of the sacred Scriptures, and hewed out of the rocke of Gods word by the hand and art of some deeply learned Divine: but I perceive that the best testimonie which you have to alleage for your Religion, is that booke composed by one of your Page  8 owne side, and all you can say for your selfe, is as the old Proverbe runnes; Aske my fellow theese if I be a true man, which you know it stands him upon to affirme whether true or false. As for •••••rius, hee is as bold, impudent, and shamelesse a Pa••st, as needs put pen to paper; For those testimonis of forged Fa∣thers, and of old Liturgies, which all the learned of your Religion (who have any wit, learning, or dram of modestie appearing in them) have reiected, he doth boldly and familiarly cite and produce for proofes without any shame or blushing. If I should for our Religion cite and produce a booke of Luther or Cal∣vin, or any other Protestant, you would laugh mee to scorne: yea, you reiect the bookes of the Fathers printed or set forth among us, though you could ne∣ver iustly tax or convince any one of us of partiall dealing, or of the least wilfull falsification. Let mee further admonish you, that you shew little discretion in bringing humane testimonies, especially of late writers, to maintaine your Religion against me, or to confute my Religion; For I am, as you know, a Preacher of the Gospell, one of them whom yee call Protestants, and wee doe not build upon any but the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles, Christ him∣selfe being the head corner stone. We doe not regard in a controverted point of faith, what any Father or Doctor doth hold, or hath held in former ages; but what Christ and his Prophets and Apostles haue left recorded in the infallible Scriptures of the old and new Testament, and what the Fathers haue truly from thence observed. We use the learned who have gone before us as helps and guides in places of Scripture Page  9 and opinions which are doubtfull; but wee doe (as they desired) denie their testimonies to bee grounds of faith. Wherefore let us leave off all superfluous and idle allegations and discourses, and let us come to a strict forme of disputation about some maine points of controversie. If you be pleased to oppose any spe∣ciall article of our faith, I will defend it, or if you will take upon you to answer, I will prove against you, That your father the Pope is Antichrist, That the Church of Rome is the whore of Babylon: That your doctrine of merit of iustification before God by your owne workes is hereticall; And that your Image∣worship is damnable idolatrie.

Mr. Fisher.

If you bee so forward to dispute, I am for you, and I come for that purpose; But have you no other points to prove, saue these, That the Pope is Antichrist, and the Church of Rome the whore of Babylon? I remember that you urged me to dispute upon these above three yeeres agoe, when you came to me in the New-prison, belike you spend all your time and studie in these questions.

Mr. Walker.

It is true that I desired to dispute upon these que∣stions foure yeeres agoe, and then you refused, I hope you have since studied how to defend them, though then you were unprovided. Indeed I doe offer these questions first of all to every Priest and Iesuit with whom I meet, because the proving of any one of them doth at one blow overthrow all Poperie: but you all are as much afraid of these questions as a dog of the whip. I could never yet meet with one of you, which durst vndertake to maintaine the negative part: For Page  10 you are as wise as Serpents in your generation: you know by wofull experience, what hard and base & silly shifts Bellarmine, Suarez and others of your most lear∣ned Iesuits, have beene driven to seeke, while they la∣bour in writing to answer vs in these questions, and how miserably they are confounded, contradicting one another, and every one himselfe in many things. And this is the cause why you cannot endure to deale with vs in these killing points of controversie, where∣in you are sure to be overthrowne. But if these please you not, doe you name any other questions, and you shall finde mee ready and willing to dispute with you without further delay.

Mr. Fisher.

I am content: But that we may have some ground to build on; First, I will propound some questions to you in writing, to which I require your answer in writing also, that there may bee no mistaking or misreporting hereafter of that which passeth between vs.

Mr. Walker.

If you will set downe any question in writing, and write downe also your arguments, I will also write my answers to them, but all other kinde of questioning I refuse, as a meanes tending to prolong the time, and keepe us off from strict disputation. I remember that when I was with you foure yeeres agoe, you did trifle away a whole afternoone by ambiguous questions, and could not be drawne at all to disputation.

Mr. Fisher.

Wee cannot dispute without some ground laid downe and agreed upon: I will therefore first here propound in writing this question, (then he wrote downe as followeth) Page  11God the Father sent his Sonne our Saviour to teach all points of faith necessarie to salvation, bidding his Apostles heare him.

Mr. Walker.

This is no point of controversie betweene you and us; but if you make it questionable, I answer affirma∣tively, granting the proposition to bee true, doe you prove the contrarie if you can.

* Then the Iesuit taking the paper, wrote a second proposition, viz.

Mr. Fisher.

Our Lord said to his Apostles, As my Father sent mee, so send I you, hee that heareth you heareth mee, goe teach all Nations, baptizing them, &c. and teaching them to ob∣serve all things which I have commanded you; behold, I am with you all daies untill the end of the world.

Mr. Walker.

To this Master Walker answered when hee read it; That he desired an argument, not a new proposition, and urged him either to dispute upon the former que∣stion, or else to propound some point of controversie; for hee would not bee deluded nor spend any more time in trifling and writing downe propositions not controverted.

Mr. Fisher.

If this proposition be not controverted, doe you grant it vnder your hand, and I will upon your owns confession ground a controversie and an argument which shall hold you fast.

Mr. Walker.

Before you can make an argument, you must agree with mee upon some point of controversie, let us Page  12 therefore know what I shall defend, and what point you will dispute against.

Mr. Fisher.

I come instantly to the point, if you will grant the last proposition to bee true, under your hand, (this being done) he takes the paper and writes the third proposition. This commission of our Sauiour to his Apostles, was not onely to their persons, and for their lives, but to those which should by them bee sent, and should lawfully succeed them in all ages, yeeres, moneths and daies, untill the end of the world.

Mr. Walker.

Master Walker seeing this, refused to answer to any more questions or propositions in word or writing, except it were a proposition disputable; and when the Iesuit said that by degrees hee meant thus to bring him on to a maine point of controversie, upon which hee would dispute; Indeed (saith hee) you have so pro∣mised, and deceived mee now three times, I will no longer bee held in suspence; and if you can no way come to disputation but by such propositions, I will trie whether I can by the same meanes draw you to some head of controversie: Then taking a paper, he wrote downe this proposition: They who teach, hold and maintaine doctrines contrarie and repugnant to the Scriptures, even the word of God taught by Christ and his Prophets and Apostles in the old and new Testament, are not the true successors of Christ and his Apostles.

Mr. Fisher.

This assertion the Iesuit granted, but would not write downe any thing, and still urged Master Walker to grant his third proposition.

Page  13
Mr. Walker.

Stay (saith Master Walker) I must first have you to answer a second proposition, before I answer your third; then hee wrote downe a second to this effect. The Church Teachers and Pastors, who doe teach no other doctrine as necessarie to salvation, but that, and onely that which is taught in the Scriptures by Christ and his Apostles and Prophets, are undoubtedly the true Church of Christ, and the true successors of Christ and his Apostles.

Mr. Fisher.

To this the Iesuit seemed unwilling to answer, till at length being much urged, hee for very shame yeelded to grant the proposition, by saying, I doe not denie it.

Mr. Walker.

Whereupon Master Walker spake thus: Now Ma∣ster Fisher, you have granted me two maine grounds, upon which I will dispute, and upon the first I will proue, That the Church of Rome and her Pope and Priests, are not the true Church, nor true successors of Christ and his Apostles. And upon the other I will prove, That the Church of England and her Prote∣stant Pastors are the true Church and successors of Christ and his Apostles.

Mr. Fisher.

But stay (saith Fisher) let me first have your answer to my third proposition, and then wee will come to disputa∣tion immediatly.

Mr. Walker.

If I doe answer, you will not dispute, because there is no matter of controversie in your proposition. Ne∣verthelesse, that you may have no excuse nor colour Page  14 of delay, I grant your assertion thus vnderstood, viz. That to all those who are sent by the Apostles, and in calling and doctrine lawfully succeed them in all ages, yeeres and daies, untill the end of the world, Christ gave commission to teach people of every Nation, and to baptize them, and promised to bee with them. But if you meane by the last clause cunningly to im∣ply, that there are in all ages, yeeres, moneths and daies, a continued succession of Bishops and Pastors in one and the same visible Chaire and Sea, sent by the Apostles, and lawfully succeeding them as in place, so in all points of doctrine; I denie your proposition, and if you please, let this be the question betweene us, and let it be your part to prove it against me.

Mr. Fisher.

This answer Master Fisher desired him to write downe, which hee promised, upon condition Fisher would first write downe his answers to the two propositions by him propounded. And after much adoe, the Iesuit takes the paper, and under the first assertion which hee had before granted, viz. That they who teach doctrines contrarie to Gods word, are not lawfull successors of the Apostles, hee writes an ambiguous answer in these words: I grant, but Catholikes doe not so.

Mr. Walker.

Against this answer Master Walker excepted, that it was an equivocation, and might bee vnderstood two waies, either thus; I Fisher, out of my private opini∣on, or for some purpose, grant this proposition to bee true, but it is not granted by Catholikes generally; or else thus, I grant that they who teach doctrines con∣trarie to Gods word, are not true successors of the Page  15 Apostles; but Catholikes doe not so teach: If you meane the first way, and in the first sense, you doe but mocke us: But if you speake in the latter sense, your answer is more than needs, and is a denying of an as∣sumption which I have not yet expressed, viz. That Catholikes doe teach doctrines contrarie to the Scrip∣tures. If by Catholikes you understand all such as hold the true Catholike faith, I doe not, neither will charge them with that which you denie before hand. But if by Catholikes you understand Papists, your conscience doth accuse you before hand, and I will prove that supposed assumption which you denie, to wit, That the Papists teach doctrines contrarie to the Scriptures.

Mr. Fisher.

I pray you be not so hastie, let us come fairely and easily to another chiefe thing, unto which I labour to bring you, which will bee more materiall, as you shall see presently; then taking the paper, hee writes a fourth proposition in these words: This companie of Doctors and Pastors suc∣ceeding one another, appointed to instruct people in all ages, and to confirme them in faith, could not performe their duties without being so knowne in the world, that all men of all ages might haue recourse to them, and might learne from them all truth, neither could they be so secret, that all stories should bee silent of the Doctors and do∣ctrines taught by them in all ages.

Mr. Walker.

This proposition when Master Walker had read with an audible voice, hee asked the Iesuit whether it were his purpose to dispute upon it (which hee affir∣ming) hee answered, that it was not a fit proposition Page  16 to be disputed, because it contained a great number of questions and equivocations, and being urged by the Iesuit to shew his exceptions against it, hee noted downe these particulars. First, that it is absurd to hold, that all Pastors and Doctors lawfully succeeding the Apostles, were knowne in the world to all men of all ages; for there be many thousands of such Pastors who were knowne to none but to the men of the ages in which they lived. Secondly, it is an error to hold that all the men of the ages in which they lived had recourse unto them, and learned of them the truth; for it is sufficient that their owne flocks, even the sheepe of Christ, did know them and heare their voice. Thirdly, men may bee true Pastors lawfully succeeding the Apostles, though they teach not all truth, but onely the maine points of faith necessarie to salvation. Fourthly, such true Pastors may bee so secret that all stories may bee silent of them, and of their teaching and doctrine. Fifthly, though their names and doctrines were recorded in the stories of those ages, yet the stories now extant may be silent of them; because some Popes, by name Gregorie the 7. did corrupt and deface all sorts of records and wri∣tings both civill and ecclesiasticall, which made against their forged primacie, pride and corrupt doctrine, as Aventine testifies, lib. 5. Annal. Boiorum. By which meanes many ecclesiasticall stories perished, and o∣thers are corrupted untill this day.

Mr. Fisher.

To the first of these exceptions, the Iesuit yeelded, and limited his long speech by adding immediatly after the word (ages) this clause (in which they lived.) Concer∣ning Page  17 the second exception, he asked this question, Whether none but the sheepe of Christ did know the true Pastors and heare them? It was answered, That it was enough that they were knowne and heard by the sheepe of Christ: To which Fisher replied, That their persecutors must needs know them, and heare of their doctrine, or else how coula they actually persecute them and their doctrine. Master Walker answered, That their persecutors did not know Christ to be the Lord of life, nor them to bee his seruants, nor the truth of their doctrine, for then they would not have persecuted them; onely such as in persecuting them did sinne against the light of the holy Ghost (if there were any such persecutors) they did know them and their doctrine. To the third exception Fisher first yeelded, and inserted after these words (to learne from them all truth) this clause (in all the maine points necessary to salvation) and then he asked what he did understand by a maine point.

Master Walker answered, That by a maine point he under∣stood that which the infallible Scriptures of the old and new Testament doe teach to bee necessary to salvation, and require that we should so beleeve it.

To the fourth and fifth exceptions he gave no answer, but labouring to decline the mention of them, takes the paper and writes down a cavilling demand, concerning the maine points necessary to salvation, in these words: Name what particular points these are, or give a generall definition, by which all sorts even of Protestants shall agree to be such. Which when Master Walker had read, he answered to this effect.

Mr. Walker.

Now Mr. Fisher you doe shew your selfe in your colours what you are indeed, and what I have ever since I first knew you suspected you to be, even a very Page  18 idle wrangling Sophister, unskilfull in the art of Lo∣gicke, and ignorant in the rules of disputation. First, if you demand a generall definition of a maine point necessary to salvation, that I have given already when I wrote downe that it was, that which the infallible Scriptures doe teach to be necessary to salvation. But your words are senslesse in themselues, and I cannot tell what you meane by this clause (a definition by which all sorts of Protestants shall agree to be such.) This speech savours of distraction: For no sorts of Pro∣testants doe goe about to make themselves to agree to be maine points of truth necessarie to salvation, we desire only to know, beleeve, and teach such points.

Mr. Fisher.

Fisher thus caught in his owne net, had no other way to winde out himselfe, but onely urged Master Walker to name all the particular points which the Scriptures doe teach for maine points necessarie to salvation. To which Master Walker thus answered.

Mr. Walker.

Indeed I commend your wit and wise providence: for if you could perswade me to undertake the na∣ming of all such particular points, you know it would require more time than till to morrow night, and by this meanes you should escape without disputation, and sleepe quietly in a whole skinne this night. But you shall not so escape, For I doe appeale to all here present, whether this be not a meere wrangling shift to avoid disputation for the present. And I doe here charge you (if your owne conscience doth not in∣wardly tell you, that either your Religion is so false that it cannot be defended; or you your selfe so un∣learned Page  19 that you are unable to maintaine it) that you doe without further delay agree to dispute with me vpon some maine points of controuersie betweene Protestants and Papists. If you refuse, I will tax you for a faint hearted coward and dastard, and so esteeme you hereafter at all times.

Mr. Fisher.

But if I yeeld to dispute with you, who shall be Iudge betweene us?

Mr. Walker.

The chiefe judge of all shall be the word of God, and these hearers shall judge of the forme and cariage of our disputation, and to whom the victory doth be∣long.

Mr. Fisher.

They know not the word of God, neither can you your selfe certainly tell which is the true word of God.

M. Walker.

Yes, I haue it here at hand to shew (and taking out of his pocket Plantines Hebrew Bible in octauo with∣out pricks, bound with a Syriacke and Greeke Testa∣ment) Loe (saith he) here is the true word of God, even the whole Scriptures of the old and new Testament, in the originall tongues wherein they were first spoken by the spirit of God, and written by his penmen.

Mr. Fisher.

How doe you know that this booke is the word of God and the originall Scriptures?

Mr. Walker.

I know that all, not only Protestants but Papists, ac∣knowledge and confesse it so to be. First Papists, be∣cause Arias Montanus a great learned Doctor of the Page  20 Church of Rome did set it forth, and Plantine a Ca∣tholike Printer did print it, and that at the charges of Philip the second your great Catholike King of Spaine: so that you being a Romane Catholike can∣not (except you have cast off all shamefastnesse) but acknowledge it for the word of God in the originall tongues. Secondly, we Protestants are so confident of the infallible truth of the word contained in this booke, that we altogether build our faith and religion upon it.

Mr. Fisher.

How doe you know that Plantine printed this booke?

Mr. Walker.

Loe here the title page, where it is testified to be printed by him at Antwerp, and the yeere of the world according to the lesse account of the Iewish Rabbins is here specified (with these words he shewed the book and page to Fisher) who discerning it to be printed in such a Character as he could not reade, put it from him, as if he had beene afraid to looke on it. Where∣upon Master Walker began to play upon him, and ta∣king advantage of his ignorance, made the company some sport, saying: What Master Fisher, are you a lear∣ned Iesuit, and one of the Popes great champions, and yet can you not reade this faire print? I cry you mer∣cy, Graecum est non potest legi: yea it is worse than so, it is Hebrew printed in Hebrew words and letters, which to the common sort of Popish Priests is more terrible and dreadfull than conjuring figures. But in good sadnesse can you not reade it? or doe you but dissemble, Master Fisher? I am afraid by your gestures that you are in earnest, and your countenance doth Page  21 make me so confident of your ignorance, that I will adventure my booke upon it, and though I will not otherwise take twenty shillings for it, yet I here before all this company promise to give it you for your paines, if you can but reade one sentence in it out of the originall text. Which offer when Fisher refused, some of the standers by laughed at him, others won∣dred whether this were Fisher the Iesuit, and made a question of it. Master Burton who had promised si∣lence, observing the Iesuits folly by this behaviour and other idle speeches, told him, that he must give him leave to laugh and not be offended, for he had by his promise at the beginning bound himselfe from speak∣ing, but not from laughing.

Mr. Fisher.

The Iesuit plunged into this perplexitie, thought it best to be gone, and said that his businesse called him away, he could stay no longer.

Mr. Walker.

Mr. Walker answered, that this was an idle excuse. For (saith he) you know Master Fisher that this day and houre was appointed by your selfe and set apart for disputation, and though my businesse was great, I was forced to lay all aside for this worke, because no other day nor time would be accepted. Therefore it is very unlikely that any businesse should now call you away, or that you should appoint this time for any other imployment, except you came either in hope to finde no adversarie which durst encounter you, or with purpose, if any appeared, to shift off disputation by some such device. By these and such speeches, as also by the importunitie of the standers-by, the Iesuit Page  22 was detained, and falling into the question about the infallible word of God, after many speeches which passed to and fro about the originall Scriptures and the translations, which was most authenticall, and which translations the best and most uncorrupt and free from grosse errors. Master Walker to cut off all needlesse discourse about such questions, did very ear∣nestly demand of the Iesuit, whether he thought the vulgar Latine translation of the Bible to be the most pure, uncorrupt and authenticall edition of the Scrip∣tures, and the true word of God according to the de∣termination of the Councell of Trent.

Mr. Fisher.

Fisher answered, that he held it to be the uncorrupt word of God, and the most authentike edition of the Scriptures,

Mr. Walker.

And though I doe much dissent from you in this opinion (saith Master Walker) and doe hold that of all translations which are of any esteeme among Christi∣ans, there is none so full of errors and mistakings, even in the judgement of S. Hierome himselfe, upon whom the Papists falsly father it: yet so far I doe approve of it, that I doe not doubt but any learned Divine may easily gather, teach and confirme out of it all doctrines which are necessarie to salvation. For whatsoever ne∣cessarie truth is omitted in one place by mis-translatiō, it is plainly expressed in some other places of the same, which are truly and faithfully translated. And here I doe make a faire offer, and most equall motion to you before all here present, viz. That I will under∣take to make a plaine confession of the Protestants Page  23 faith, and of all the articles of religion (which the Church of England holds necessarie to salvation) in the very words and sentences of the vulgar Latine Bible without any materiall alteration at all, upon condition that you (when I have made good my word and pro∣mise) will grant and acknowledge that the confession so made is a true confession of the true Christian faith, and that all such articles are to be received and embra∣ced for articles of the true religion.

Mr. Fisher.
This offer when the Iesuit refused to accept, he was much condemned, censured and reproved by the hearers. Wherefore to avoid all further urging in this point, and for the escaping of more reproofe and censure, he flies backe to the generall question concerning the word of God, and taking a paper wrote downe his assent:

That the word of God comprehends in it, 1. The Scriptures. 2. Whatso∣ever by good consequence is gathered from the holy Scrip∣tures. And withall he wrote downe this question, viz. who must be the Iudge when the Scriptures are doubtfull, and when the question is of the goodnesse of the conse∣quence. And withall he professed that for his part he held the Church to be the Iudge, and that when the Church hath iudged, no private man must oppose.

Mr. Walker.

Mr. Walker on the other side professed, that for the goodnesse of the consequence Logicians must judge by reason and the rules of Logicke. And for the sense and meaning of the doubtfull places, the Scripture is the best expositor of it selfe, and the plaine places of it doe give light to the places which are obscure, and doe best expound them. And therefore every private Page  24 person, and the whole Church it selfe in matters doubtfull must flie to the Scriptures themselves, as the last Iudge of controversies in matters of faith and sal∣vation. And here he asked Master Fisher if he durst, in this controversie, stand to the judgement of the anci∣ent Fathers, such as S. Augustine, Chrysostome, and others of that ranke.

Mr. Fisher.

The Iesuit answered, that he knew the Fathers were on his side, and did altogether flie to the iudgement of the Church in matters of faith, when any controversie did arise.

Mr. Walker.

That (said Master Walker) is most untrue, & the cō∣trary shall be shewed presently out of their owne wri∣tings, set forth and printed by Papists: then calling for two volumes, the one of S. Chrysostome upon Matthew, the other S. Austens third Tome, both printed and set forth by Papists, as the inscription did shew, and Fisher could not denie: First he turnes to the Homilie of Chrysostome upon these words of the Gospel, Math. 24. (When you see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place, then let him that is in Iudea flie to the moun∣taines) and shewes the Authors exposition, which was to this effect: That when Antichrist rules and beares sway in the holy place the Church, then all professors of Christian religion who are in the true Iudaea, that is, Chri∣stianitie, must flie only to the Scriptures, for they are the mountaines upon which the Church is founded; according to that saying of David, Her foundations are upon the holy mountains, Psal. 87. 1. And in those daies when Anti∣christ sits and succeeds in the Sea of holy Bishops, and Page  25 over-rules all, workes miracles and makes great shew of godlinesse in hypocrisie, then the Church cannot be knowne by succession of Pastors, nor by the miracles and holy life of teachers, as in former ages, but only by the Scriptures.

Mr. Fisher.

The answer which the Iesuit gave to this testimonie▪ was, that this could not be proved to be the worke of Chry∣sostome.

Mr. Walker.

More shame (said Master Walker) it is to your Do∣ctors and Printers, who cite places out of this booke under the name of Chrysostome, and doe print and set it forth in his name: but suppose it be not the worke of Chrysostome, yet you cannot denie it to be the worke of an ancient writer of great antiquitie, and therefore it makes much against you being approved in the Church so many ages. Neither shall you so escape; For loe here in the third booke of S. Augustine, De do∣ctrinâ Christianâ, which was never questioned, but is generally received and acknowledged by all, it is most plainly taught by the learned Father, That the best way of expounding the Scriptures is, in words which have many significations, to observe the scope and circumstances of the place, and thereby to expound them; and to expound obscure places by comparing them with other plaine places of the Scriptures, which speake of the same matter and subject. Then hee shewed the words to Fisher, and read them in Latine to him, who could not deny them, but heard them read with much impatiencie, as his gestures shewed; but when he began to expound them in English to the people there present, the Iesuit could not containe Page  26 himselfe, but said; Away, this is nothing to the pur∣pose, we will examine these things some other time. And when words would not prevaile, hee reacheth with his hands to the booke, and did strive to shut it, that the words might not bee read; notwithstanding Master Walker held it by strong hand, and read the words, which when the people present did heare and see, they confessed that Fisher was openly convinced; some of them told him that his owne conscience did witnesse against him, and all condemned his impu∣dencie joined with most intolerable and desperate obstinacie.

The Iesuit thus condemned on all sides, and not able to outface the matter any longer, did make shew as if he stood vpon coales, and would gladly be gone, and his Disciple who brought him thither, being ready to helpe him at a dead lift, when hee saw him so con∣founded, calls vpon him to remember the place which they were to goe unto, whereupon they made haste to depart, but by much importunitie were staied, and Master Walker still urging him to propound and pro∣secute one argument upon any question of contro∣versie before they parted; he answered, that now there was no time, but promised to dispute at some other time. At length, out of an earnest desire to draw one argument from the Iesuit, he offered to him this advan∣tage, That if for the iustifying of any point or article of the Romish religion, hee would make a perfect syl∣logisme in moode and figure, and presently upon the deniall of any of the premises, second it with a prosyl∣logisme, not failing in forme, to prove and conclude the proposition denied, the point or article so farre Page  27 proved, should for this one time bee yeelded to him, and he should haue libertie to make his best advantage of it, for the justifying of any other point of Poperie which hee would presently dispute upon. But all this could not prevaile to wring one syllogisme from him, which made the hearers thinke that hee had no art nor skill to make an argument: And that they did not thinke amisse nor erre in their opinion, appeared by that which followed; for although hee durst not un∣dertake, during the time of the conference, to make one syllogisme, or to propound an argument in forme, yet at the breaking up, when hee was ready to depart, he tooke his paper and wrote downe and gave to Ma∣ster Walker, desiring him to answer at leasure this ar∣gument which followeth, and which is yet to be shew∣ed under his owne hand, though perhaps to men of judgement it may seeme incredible that any Priest or Iesuit of his name and note, should be so absurd, as to propound for a syllogisme such a confused speech, without forme, moode or figure: It runnes word for word thus; That Church which beginning with Christ, and his Apostles, hath visibly professed in all ages that faith (which Christ and his Apostles taught) without change in any point necessarie to salvation, is that Church whose judgement is to bee followed, and no private man must op∣pose his judgement against it. There must bee one such Church in all ages. But no such Protestants can be shewed. This syllogisme no doubt will appeare (as it is in forme) very absurd to all the judicious, who shall heare of it, or reade it: And yet the author thereof (if we consider either the time when, or the manner how he propounded it) was therein farre more absurd and Page  28 ridiculous. For hee delivered it for an argument of such force and strength, that it was not to be answered but at leasure, and upon much studie and meditation. Yea, hee wrote it downe, after that every point and tittle therein, which requires any answer, had beene by the present adversarie Master Walker, there at that time abundantly answered, to the full satisfaction of the hearers (as they confessed.) For after Master Wal∣ker had fairely offered, and earnestly urged that all con∣troversies of religion which were betweene them, might be tried, first, by the originall Scriptures; se∣condly, by the sincere writings of the ancient Fa∣thers; thirdly, by disputation in strict syllogismes: and all these were refused and rejected by the Iesuit, as is before related; They who were present, wondering at him, and some of them asking him, whether he had any ground of his faith and religion, besides his owne sense and will.

Mr. Fisher.

He answered, that he would bee judged by the Church. For (said hee) when the Church hath judged, no private man must oppose his judgement. And this I made a Pro∣testant Preacher confesse heretofore in a conference, and that under his owne hand.

Mr. Walker.

Master Walker answered, that the Church of God never judgeth (as it is a true Church) but by the Word of God in the holy Scriptures; and as it is said of a just Iudge in a Common-wealth, that hee is Lex loquens, so it is said of every true and faithfull Church, that it is Scriptura loquens, The speaking Scripture. Now against this judgement of the Church no private man Page  29 must oppose his judgement, that is, his owne private opinion: for all singular opinions of private men are vaine errors; if they were true they could not bee singular, seeing all truths necessarie to salvation taught in the Scriptures, are common to all the faithfull. Therefore the Protestant Preacher which you named, did grant nothing but the truth, from which you can picke no advantage to helpe you; for you, when you appeale to the judgement of the Church, doe in many things differ from this truth. First, by the Church you understand no other Church but the Church of Rome, that whore of Babylon, your owne mother; and your appealing to her to be the judge of your Religion, is as if a Bastard should seeke to be judged by the whore his mother, whether hee be lawfully begotten, which he knowes shee will affirme and judge him to bee for her owne credit. Secondly, you rest on her judgement in the maine principles of Religion, which are already most plainly and infallibly determined in the holy Scriptures, and in which no Christian truly sanctified and regenerate, being growne up to yeeres of discre∣tion, and well read in the Scriptures, needeth the judge∣ment of any other judge, besides the Spirit of God enlightening his heart. Thirdly, when you speake of the judgement of the Church, you understand such a judging power and authoritie, as doth by determining points of faith and manners, make them true and law∣full, whereas the true Church of God hath no power to coine new Scriptures, or to make articles of faith, but onely the gift of revealing, propounding and ex∣pounding of the word of God, and the articles of Religion, which Christ hath commended to the faith∣full. Page  30 Fourthly, you require in the true Church, and at∣tribute to your Church of Rome such properties, as cannot bee found in any particular Church on earth, viz. that it hath continued in the same place, state and condition, visibly and sensibly professing from the daies of Christ and his Apostles, the same faith in all points necessarie to salvation; whereas by consent of all stories, and by manifest experience it is plaine, that doctrines which by the Apostles were taught to the old Romane Christians, as justification by faith with∣out workes, and by imputation of Christs righteous∣nesse, Rom. 3. & 4. & 5. are now condemned by the present Romish Church. And others which the A∣postle did call Doctrines of Devils, as forbidding to marrie, and abstinence from meats, &c. 1 Tim. 4. 3. it urgeth as necessarie to bee beleeved and obeyed for salvation, by some persons.

Mr. Fisher.

I doe hold that the Church is the chiefe judge of all con∣troversies, in the matters of Religion, and that all private persons must submit to it, and not seeke to the Scriptures; First, because the Scriptures are translated out of the ori∣ginall tongues before that private men can reade or under∣stand them, and the translations are not to be beleeved nor received, but by the authoritie and approbation of the Church. Secondly, the Church gives such authoritie to the Scriptures, that without it we are not bound to beleeve them, nor receive them for Gods word, according unto that excellent profession of Saint Augustine, Non crederem Evangelio nisi me Ecclesiae moveret authoritas; I would not beleeve the Gospell unlesse I were thereunto moved by the authoritie of the Church.

Page  31
Mr. Walker.

And I answer, that all this which you say makes no more for the Church of Rome than for any other par∣ticular Church; for all other particular Churches have as much authoritie in this kinde, yea, more, be∣cause shee is more impure and corrupt than any of them, and hath least abilitie or sinceritie to judge of the truth. And undoubtedly Saint Austen meant not the Church of Rome (of which hee was no member) but rather the Church of Millaine in which he was conver∣ted. Secondly, I say that Saint Austen in the place by you cited, speakes by way of supposition, and not by way of asseveration, as the learned have well observed from the scope and circumstances of the place. Third∣ly, it is true that over-weake Christians, who are babes in Christ, the Church in which they live and are bap∣tized, hath such authoritie (as you speake of) namely, to translate the Scriptures, and to commend them for the word of God, and for truth, and they are bound to give credit to it therein, and not to oppose their owne fancies and conceits. But when Christians are growne up in grace and knowledge, and have felt by their owne experience, the effects and worke of the Spirit in their soules wrought by reading and hearing of the holy Scriptures, and when not onely by the in∣ward testimonie of the Spirit, testifying that they are the truth; but also by the inward heavenly comforts and spirituall strength which they thereby and from thence receive, doe sensibly perceive that Gods hand is with them, and he doth in them speake to their con∣sciences: then they need no more the judgement of the Church, nor of any externall judge, to assure them Page  32 that the Scriptures are Gods true infallible word; for though all professors in the world, or an Angell from heaven should preach and affirme the contrarie, they will not assent unto them; but rather count them as Anathema and accursed, as the Apostle commands, Gal. 1. 8.

Mr. Fisher.

They who are true Catholikes, and rest upon the judge∣ment of the Church, have as much assurance and certaintie of the truth of the Scriptures, as is needfull, from the te∣stimonie of the Church; for they build vpon the rocke against which the gates of hell cannot prevaile: But you teach men to build their faith on their owne private spirit, and you are lead every one of you by his owne conceit, which is the cause of so many sects and schismes and severall opinions among you, every one assuming to himselfe pre∣sumptuously such an infallibilitie of judgement in matters of faith, as doth not belong to any private man, neither can bee attained unto by the common and vulgar sort of Christians.

Mr. Walker.

You shew your selfe by this speech of yours to be not onely a meere carnall man, such a one as hath ne∣ver felt the lively worke of Gods spirit in his heart, nor tasted of the heavenly gift; but also a brutish man cor∣rupting that reason and darkning that light which by nature is in you; which I will evidently shew divers waies. First, you preferre the externall testimonie of the Church, before the internal testimonie of Gods spi∣rit, and make it a more sure rocke to build on, than the Holy Ghost who is the spirit of truth. Secondly, you seeme to exempt and exclude the common sort of Page  33 Christians, and all private men from the communion of the Holy Ghost, and from that gift and grace and inward worke of the spirit, by which they are illumina∣ted to see, and perswaded to beleeve the truth of Gods word every one particularly in his owne soule and with his owne heart, contrary to the Scriptures, which teach, that the spirit of Jehovah resting first and origi∣nally on Christ the head, Isa. 11. 2. is from him inspi∣red and infused into all and every faithfull member of his body the Church, Rom. 8. 9. in such sort, that they are said, by that one spirit to be baptized into one bodie, whether they be Iewes or Gentiles, 1 Cor. 12. 13. and their bodies are said to be temples of the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in them, 1 Cor. 3. 16. and 6. 19. and by this spi∣rit they are said to have the gift of knowledge and faith, 1 Cor. 12. and to be led into all truth, Ioh. 16. Thirdly▪ you call the holy spirit of Christ (which we challenge in Christ by a common right, as common to all the elect, and which doth worke the same faith and know∣ledge in every particular Christian) by the name of a private spirit; wherein you shew most palpable igno∣rance overspreading your carnall eyes, and possessing your carnall heart. For that spirit which flowes from that one common fountaine of all goodnesse, even God the Father of all, and is sent forth in and through the name of that one common Mediatour and Sa∣viour of the world his Sonne Iesus Christ; which is also the same in Christ the head, and in the whole uni∣versall bodie of the elect and faithfull, and doth worke in all and every one particularly the same common knowledge of the same truth, and the same common faith in the same promised seed: And all this by no Page  34 private motions or inspirations separated from the word of God; but onely by that common meanes, even the word of Christ spoken by his mouth, and written by his Prophets and Apostles in the Scrip∣tures of the Old and New Testament; this spirit can in no case be called a private spirit. For it is the pro∣pertie of the Holy Ghost, the true Comforter, to come from the Father in the Sonnes name, and to teach the truth, and worke faith by the common rule and meanes of the Scriptures, and not to speake of himselfe new things which Christ had not spoken be∣fore; but onely to speake what he hath heard, and so to receive of Christs, and to give to us; and to lead us into all truth by calling to our mindes the word spo∣ken by Christ and recorded in the Scriptures, and by writing it in our hearts, as our Saviour plainly testifi∣eth, Ioh. 16. 13, 14. This spirit which is discerned by these properties we challenge to our selves, by the common right of the elect in Christ, and he it is who doth testifie to our spirits, that the holy Scriptures are the true infallible word, and doth transforme our soules into the obedience of them, and doth worke in us that same faith by which all the Saints have beene justified and saved from the beginning of the world. But now as I have shewed you, which is the true spirit of God common to all the elect and faithfull, and that by his properties observed from the words of Christ our Saviour, and also that the spirit of Protestants is that spirit: So I demand of you, whether you Papists have any such spirit working in you that faith and knowledge of the Scriptures, which you build on the testimonie and authoritie of the Church. If you say Page  35 that you have no such spirit, but are led every one by his owne sense; then are you carnall and sensuall men, not spirituall by your owne confssion: If you say that you have the spirit moving every one of you par∣ticularly to rest on the judgement of the Church of Rome, and causing you to beleeve that the Pope can∣not erre, and that the Scriptures which he doth com∣mend unto you, are therefore Gods word, then I would know of you, why that spirit so resting and working in every particular Papist should not be estee∣med a private spirit, as well as that which works in every Protestant.

Mr. Fisher.

Your spirit is a private spirit, because he leads every one of you into severall opinions and private interpretations of Scripture, which have never beene received in the Church, nor commonly acknowledged of the godly Fathers and Doctors.

Mr. Walker.

If you have no more to say for your selfe than this, I shall easily convince you by your owne mouth, and prove from your owne words, that the spirit of Pa∣pists (not the spirit of Protestants) is indeed a private spirit. For first our spirit perswades us to receive for Gods infallible word no other Scriptures, but those which by the common consent of all the ancient Fa∣thers, and of all sorts of Christians, even of you Pa∣pists your selves, are held for Canonicall: but you Romanists receive divers Scriptures for Canonicali, which by S. Hierome and other Ancients, and by all the reformed Churches are and have beene censured for Apocrypha; and so you are in this more private in Page  36 your opinion than we. Secondly, we Protestants build upon no other rock but that which is common to all the faithfull from the beginning, even God himselfe, who is prima veritas, the first truth, and upon his word of promise made in Christ the promised seed; and we are founded on the Prophets and Apostles, who are the common foundation both to all the fathers in the old Testament, and to all Christians in the time of the Gospell. But you build upon a new rocke, even the Pope of Rome, whom yee call the universall Bishop sitting in Peters chaire, a foundation which all the faithfull forefathers before the comming of Christ were ignorant of, and never heard or dreamed. Nei∣ther did the first Christians in the primitive Church for divers hundred of yeeres after Christ acknowledge any such name or title; but even Gregorie the Great, a Bishop of Rome, who lived 560. yeeres after Christ, condemned it as a note of Antichrist and his fore∣runner, as by his epistles is manifest. Thirdly, though divers sects of Anabaptists, Familists, and Enthusiasts, men of fanaticall spirits, have growne up like tares in the field of the reformed Churches, who follow their owne private fancies, imaginations, and divers inspi∣rations of Satan, which have no warrant from the Scriptures, but are contrary to the written word: yet they are not of us, we renounce their society, and ex∣pell them out of our Churches, and say of them as the Apostle did, 1 Ioh. 2. 19. They went out from us, but they were not of us. And as for the interpretations of some obscure Scriptures, which Luther, Calvin, and other learned men have lately found out, and doe finde out daily, which were not knowne of old nor commonly Page  37 received; we embrace them not for novelty, nor be∣cause they are singular, nor for the authoritie of the expositors themselves; but because we finde them to be agreeable to the originall text, and to other plaine places of the same Scriptures, and to containe the old and common doctrine of Christ, and his Apostles and Prophets, which hath beene beleeved and embraced in all ages of all true Christians: But a great number of the articles of the Romish religion concerning Image-worship, Canonization of Saints, Purgatorie, Pardons, Indulgences, Transubstantiation, Massing, sa∣crificing for the dead, and such like, they are builded vpon private visions, apparitions, dreames, imaginati∣ons and fancies of Friers, and upon singular inspirati∣ons of Monks, and other doating persons slavishly devoted to your superstitions, so that the Popish spirit is indeed the same with the private fanaticall spirit of Anabaptists and Enthusiasts, as plaine reason and ex∣perience doe shew.

Mr. Fisher.

The Iesuit taking little pleasure in the hearing of these things, made great shew of a desire to breake off, and to be gone, onely he put on a bold and impudent face to deride the opinion of Protestants concerning the gift of the spirit; by which particular Christians are enabled to know and be∣leeve the Scriptures, and to be fully perswaded and assured of the truth and true meaning of them: And as for you (saith he to Master Walker) it is well for you that you have such an infallible spirit which doth enable you to dis∣cerne the word of God, and doth more assure you of the truth thereof, than the publike testimonie of the Church. Page  38 But pardon us if we hold it doubtfull, seeing we have no more but your owne word for it.

Mr. Walker.

Yea and I will have your word professing the same of your selfe also, or else I will make you appeare to all here present, to be void of all true Christianitie. First, you shall see that all your scoffs shall not make me ashamed to professe and to proclaime the grace and gift which God hath given me for the knowledge of his word, and how I come to know it by the worke of his spirit. Secondly, I will urge you upon your conscience, to answer me whether you have experi∣ence and feeling of the same grace in you. That which I can with a good conscience testifie of my selfe, I hold to be no singular gift, but a grace common to all true Christians, and it is this: First, I confesse that I was borne of Christian parents, and my father and mother who tenderly loved me, and were also of me dearely beloved, did teach me the first principles of religion from my infancie, and did tell me that the holy Scriptures contained in that Bible which was read and expounded in our Church were the true word of God; I being not able to judge of it my selfe, beleeved it so to be upon their word and authoritie for the reverent respect and esteeme which I had of them. Afterwards they caused me to frequent the Church, and to heare that word read and expounded by learned Preachers, and told me that I ought to be∣leeve what I heard out of it preached in the Church; and so I did: for I beleeved the Preachers publishing that word, in so much that partly by their exhortati∣ons, Page  39 and partly out of a care which I had of my soules health, and in a desire of Gods favour and blessings which were thereunto promised, I did even from my youth give my minde to reade and learne the Scriptures. Howsoever I must confesse, that at the first and in my childish yeeres, I did finde but little savour & sweetnesse in the most profitable parts of the Scriptures; such as Davids Psalmes, Sa∣lomons Proverbs, the bookes of the Prophets, the Epistles of the Apostles, and such like; yea though I beleeved that they were Gods word: yet by reason of my naturall corruption, I did take more pleasure and delight in Poeticall fables and feigned histo∣ries, which did feed my corruption, and were a kinde of fuell to my sinfull lusts and vanities. Ne∣verthelesse whether it was mine owne conscience urging me, or the spirit of God which moved me, I cannot certainly tell; but sure I am, that still I did upon the testimonie and authoritie of my Pa∣rents and Teachers, reverence the Scriptures as Gods word, and force my selfe to reade them con∣trary to my rebellious nature; and at length when I came to more ripe yeeres: I found that the word which was most opposite and distastfull to my sin∣ful corruption, did worke upon me most strongly and effectually, which is an infallible token of Gods hand in it, and a sure signe of the divine power and supernaturall excellencie thereof, I felt the promi∣ses of the Gospell, and the words of the Prophets and Apostles which before had little relish, begin by Gods grace to be most sweet and comfortable Page  40 in all crosses and afflictions, and to be most profi∣table by strengthning me with the spirit of prayer and faith against temptations, by mortifying my fleshly corruptions, and by reforming my life; so that I began to rejoyce in the Scriptures, more than in any earthly treasures, and did devote my selfe to the studie of them; and now partly upon the testi∣monie of Gods spirit witnessing inwardly with my spirit, and partly upon the sense and experience which I have of the power of them in overcom∣ming my naturall corruptions, as it were against my will; and partly upon that particular sight and knowledge which I have of the glory and divine Majestie shining in them, I am so confident and assured, that they are Gods most holy and infalli∣ble word, that my conscience tels me, I had rather forgoe all the world, and my dearest bloud and bo∣dily life, than denie the truth of them. Yea if the Church and Teachers which perswaded me first to receive them for Gods word, should fall away by apostasie, forsweare and denie them, or any part of them; or if any Angell from heaven should teach the contrary, I would count them accursed, as the Apostle enjoines me, Gal. 1. 8. And now I can say to the Church and my Teachers, as the Samaritans did to the woman who brought them to Christ: Loe I have heretofore beleeved the Scriptures to be Gods word upon your testimonie and authori∣tie; but now I see with mine owne eyes, I have the inward testimonie of Gods spirit, and feele by powerfull effects and by experience in my selfe▪ Page  41 that these Scriptures are Gods holy word, and the power of God to salvation. This (I freely confesse) is my knowledge and perswasion of Gods word, which by these degrees I have attained unto. And I daily have experience and evident signes of the same grace in all other Christians, with whom I doe converse familiarly. Now therefore in the se∣cond place, I charge you before God and upon your conscience to answer directly and plainly be∣fore this people here present, whether you have experience of the same grace in you, and whether you have by these degrees o any of them attained to this full assurance of knowledge and understan∣ding of the Scriptures?

Mr. Fisher.

What is that to you, whether I have or have not? Or what if I hold it needlesse to assume so much unto my selfe?

Mr. Walker.

It is very necessarie that you should doe either the one or the other. And whether you confesse or denie, you are taken and ensnared. If you say that you have experience of this grace in you, and of this gift and testimonie of the spirit, then you are plainly convinced by your owne mouth of wilfull blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, in that you have denied, contradicted, derided, and scoffed at Page  42 that worke of his in the Saints of God, of which worke you have experience in your owne soule. But if you confesse that you never felt this order and worke of grace in you, and that your faith is nothing but an implicit beleeving of the Scriptures upon the Churches testimonie and authoritie, with∣out any sense or experience of the power and ver∣tue thereof in your soule, and that you blindly and desperatly cast your selfe on the Church, without any particular discerning of the truth of the Scrip∣tures, or any inward testimonie of the spirit; then it is certaine (to say the best) that you are yet a babe in Christianitie, and Christ Iesus is not yet formed in you. Yea I feare that you are worse than so: for (if after so many yeeres studie of Di∣vinitie, and so long continuance in the publike cal∣ling of a Priest, and teacher of others) you be found not onely destitute and void of this necessa∣rie grace of a Christian; but also an opposer and gainesayer of it, and a scorner of such as professe it; we cannot but deeme you a very Atheist and sonne of Belial, in whom is verified, that which S. Paul foretold of the slaves of Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2. 12. viz. That God should send them strong delusions, that they should beleeve lies; and be damned, not beleeving the truth, but having pleasure in unrighteousnesse. Also that which is testified by S. Iude of such re∣probates, who are of old ordained to condemna∣tion, viz. That they speake evill of those things which they know not, and whatsoever things they know na∣turally, as beasts which are without reason in those Page  43 things they corrupt themselves, and that they are cor∣rupt trees, and without fruit, twise dead and plucked up by the roots, and raging waves of the sea foaming out their owne shame, and wandring starres to whom is reserved the blacknesse of darknesse for ever.

Mr. Fisher

You are very sharpe and uncharitable in your judge∣ment; but it is no matter what you say; neither will I argue more with you at this present, for it is time for us to depart.

Mr. Walker.

I doe not judge you but by your owne mouth, and by the infallible word of God, and from hence∣forth I leave you to the judgement of God, and to the censure of all here present, who have heard you at this time; onely thus much I must tell you, that I doe manifestly discerne by your cariage, speeches, and behaviour, your evill conscience, and that you doe dolo malo wilfully oppose the truth, and facti∣ously cleave to the Romish religion. For all here present have seene that you refuse, and are afraid to be tried either by Scriptures, or Fathers, or dispu∣tation, and reason, or by the spirit of God, which you would never doe so openly to your shame, if your conscience did not tell you, that they are all against you in the speciall articles of your religion wherein you dissent from us.

To this divers of Page  44 them who were present gave their assent, and pro∣fessed that they were exceedingly deceived in their opinion of Fisher, wondering that one so vaine and ridiculous, as he shewed himselfe, should dare to undertake the defence of his religion face to face against any learned man, before any understanding hearers; or that any should be either so foolish and blinde, as to be seduced by him, or so impudent and void of iudgement, as to give him the name and report of a learned man, or to number him among subtle disputants. And one among the rest calling unto the Iesuit, asked him very earnestly, whether he were indeed that Fisher the Iesuit who disputed with Doctor White before the King, which when he acknowledged;

Surely (said the man) I should never have beleeved it if any other had told me so; for it could never have sunke into my minde, that any of your name and report should be so absurd and ridiculous, as you have here shewed your selfe. For I see that neither the Originall Scriptures, nor your owne translation of them, nor the Fathers, nor disputation and argument are of any account with you. Doe you thinke that any man will be so foolish, as to beleeve you, who have no ground but your owne word and will? But now I am glad that you have given me iust occasion, as to abhorre your religion more than ever before, and to esteeme you a vaine wrangler of no judge∣ment: so also to stop the mouth of some of my kinred, who are of your religion, and great admi∣rers of your person, and praisers of your learning, Page  45 by reporting and testifying unto them concer∣ning you, what I have seene with mine eyes, and heard with mine eares this day.

But the thing which did most astonish the beholders was, the desperate behaviour of the Popish Novice, the pro∣curer of this meeting, who did in the time of this conference most lively expresse the slavish nature of a seduced Romane Catholike, to whom God hath sent strong delusion, to cleave to lies, and to reject the truth. For he did most manifestly shew, (as the standers by well observed) that he came with a full purpose and resolution, and an heart and forehead hardned to scoffe, deride and gaine∣say whatsoever was said against the minde of his ghostly father Fisher the Iesuit, whether good or bad; and to extoll and admire with most in∣temperate noise and clamour, whatsoever Fisher did averre, without regard of right or wrong, truth or falshood. In so much, that one time when Master Walker had spoken something which seemed to give content to the hearers, and they openly applauded, and the Novice (as his manner was) scoffing at the speech, said to his younger brother, and others neere unto him, that he never heard a more absurd and foolish reason, and that any childe might answer it: Master Walker over∣hearing, urged him to tell wherein the absurditie and foolishnesse of his reason did consist, and what it was: But he was not able to repeat one word, so that all the hearers laughed, and con∣demned him for an headstrong foole, in speaking Page  46 evill of that, which he neither knew, nor cared to understand. But all this could not bridle his tongue, nor make his impudent face ashamed. For a little after, when Master Fisher the Iesuit was speaking something, which Master Walker seemed to sleight, and to smile at, the popish Novice spake out in a passion more loud than ordinary to his bro∣thers, and others about him: Loe there is an ar∣gument to the purpose, which I warrant you can never be answered by the best of your Mini∣sters; let him answer it if he can. Which Master Walker noting, turned once more to the Novice, and desired him to repeat that strong argument, or if he could not doe that, to tell the meaning or the matter of it; but hee was not able to repeat a word, nor to tell what was the matter in hand, which made the beholders astonished at his desperate im∣pudencie and wilfull blindnesse; in so much that some sharply rebuked him to his face, others bla∣med Fisher for nuzling him up, and suffering him to goe on in such notorious impudencie and wil∣full blindnesse, and divers did not sticke to say, that they never saw nor heard of such a dangerous example, and that undoubtedly they perceived this Novice to be so devillishly addicted and devoted to his Master Fisher, that if Fisher would blaspheme the name of Iesus Christ, this Novice would iustifie his blasphemie, and maintaine it unto death. And thus the conference ended. But at the breaking up, the Iesuit gave in writing to be answered at ley∣sure, the confused speech before mentioned. And Page  47 Master Walker wrote downe an argument, which he gave to him to be considered and directly answe∣red in writing upon mature deliberation. The summe of the Argument was this.

  • That Church which hath the chiefe properties of the great whore of Babylon, mentioned Revel. 17. is un∣doubtedly that great whore, and the Church of An∣tichrist.
  • The present Church of Rome now subject to the Pope, hath those properties,
  • ergo it is the great whore.

The assumption confirmed.

These following are the chiefe properties of the great whore. First, shee must bee such a Church as being once most famous and renowned over all the faithfull Spouse of Christ, hath by degrees fallen away into spirituall whordome, that is, Idolatrie and Image-worship: for the Scriptures doe never stile by the name of whore any Citie or Church, but such as thus fall away.

Secondly, shee must still hold her visible succes∣sion of Bishops in the same place and Sea, and pro∣fesse her selfe the chiefe spouse of Christ, while she commits Idolatrie in the Churches of Christ, and mingles it with his outward and verball worship, and while hee doth by persecution sacrifice to her God Molech, such children, as she, by meanes of the Scriptures and some parts of his worship, which shee still after a sort retaineth, hath begotten and borne to Christ.

Page  48 Thirdly, shee must bee the mother of whore∣domes, by assuming to her selfe the power to ca∣nonize for Saints whom she pleaseth, and to autho∣rize the worship of them and their Images: and by obtruding upon the Churches of other nations, Cities and Countries her formes of idolatrous worship.

Now there is no Church or Citie in the world which hath, or can have these properties, but onely the present Church and Sea of Rome. 1. For she was for faith renowned in all the world, as Saint Paul, Rom. 1. and many of the ancient Fathers in their writings doe shew. 2. And she now continu∣ing her visible succession of Bishops ever since the Apostles, in the same place and Sea, is become a worshipper of Images, which is Idolatrie, as all the world may see and observe. 3. And though shee doth challenge to her selfe the authoritie to cano∣nize Saints, and to authorize all Image-worship, going a whoring from Christ her first love, after his pretended Vicar the Pope, and his superstitions, and obtruding upon all nations her abominations: yet she still glories in the name of the chiefe spouse of Christ, and under shew and colour of zeale and love to him, doth persecute and murder such godly men as (being converted to Christ by those meanes of Christianitie which shee still retaineth) doe re∣prove and rebuke her for Idolatrie, superstition, and other vices; as Ierusalem did when shee was a great spirituall whore and adultresse, Ezech. 16. Therefore the present Church of Rome, now sub∣ject Page  49 to the Pope, hath the chiefe properties of the great whore of Babylon, and by consequence is that great Babylonish whore, and the Church of Antichrist:

This argument being to this effect de∣livered in writing to the Iesuit, hee departed, and hath not yet returned an answer. Onely hee sent within a few daies after to Master Walker, by his disciple above mentioned, certaine propositions which hee commonly carries about him as the chiefe weapons of his warfare, and by which he doth provoke and challenge all Pro∣testant Divines with whom hee doth meet in any place.

FINIS.