The third booke, declaring by examples out of auncient councels, fathers, and later writers, that it is time to beware of M. Iewel by Iohn Rastel ...

¶How M. Iewel himselfe dothe vse the Testimonies of what so euer Age and wryter, though he bind other to the first sixe hundred yeres only.

TO the first six hundred yeres cum∣passe then, we must be bound, al a∣gainst Reason and Conscience, but what shall we doe, when the stan∣ding in our right against the Aduersarie,* 1.1 and the Refusing to encountre with him vpon his conditions, shallbe thought of some Iudges to be A Preiudice vnto our cause, and A greate Argument that our hartes faile vs?

Dispute (sayeth the Heretike) wyth me, vpon these questions, whether the Publike Seruice in an vnknowen tongue, Or Receiuing vnder one kinde, Or Re∣seruing of the Sacrament in A Pix wyth A Canopie ouer it▪ &c. Was euer vsed in the Primitiue Church. No Mary

(would I saie, if it were to me only), I will not Dispute with thee vpon thees•• poyntes. But, if thy Hart and Lear∣ning serue thee, make few wordes and Answer me, from whence thou c••mest? Who sent thee?* 1.2 What are their Names? Where are their Sees? What is their Succession? What is their Authoritie? In which pointes if thou satisfie me, not only then, in these few Articles which thou demaundest, but in euery point and part of the Religion, which thy Church aloweth, I will be Faithfull and Obe∣dient.

[ 2] Dispute (sayeth he againe vnto me) on Munday come seuennight. And be∣fore that Day cummeth, he chaingeth his minde foure or fiue times with me.

First he will Dispute in Latine: Then he will wryte his minde, and speake no∣thing: After that, he wil haue the ma∣ter Reasoned in Englishe, and wise men shalbe Iudges: And, after that againe, he will haue it done in the hearing of the people, not by quicke Disputation, but by Reading only the Argumentes out of a Booke.

If the Catholike Disagree in anye poynt, and stand vpon it: either stub∣burnesse, either Mistrust of his Cause, either some fault or other, shalbe layed vnto him. And so were many greate and heighnous maters Obiected against S. Ambrose,* 1.3 because he refused to haue the cause betwene himselfe and the He∣retike Auxentius,* 1.4 to be tried in the Con∣sistorie of the Emperour, before Secular Iudges. And his Exception, against the Place only and Audience, was ac∣compted an high and intolerable Trea∣son.

In like maner: You shall Dispute [ 3] with me (sayeth the Heretike,) and no∣thing shall serue you, except it be in ex∣presse Scripture. If the Catholike re∣fuse that Condition, and allege an hun∣dred Reasons and Authorities, that we must bele••e the vnwriten veritie, as wel as the writen, And, that the word and will of God is allwaies to be obei••d, whether it be deliuered vnto vs by Tra∣dition, or left vnto vs in Wryting: Yet except he yeld at length, all England shal ring of it, That the Papistes will not be

tried by the linely worde of God, That they flee the light, That they dare not commit their cause to the Scriptures.

[ 4] To be short, when M. Iewel now, more Reasonably in deede than Some of his Masters or Felowes, which will admit nothing but Scripture: Yet here∣tically and stately inough, pro••oketh vs to ioine with him, And chooseth his que∣stions, and excludeth all our Answers vnto them, except they be taken iust out of the v••.C. yeres after Christ: although it be very vniustly required of him, and A Catholike should neuer come into such bondage, Or not alwaies condescend in these lesser pointes vnto A Protestant: Yet, if he striue long with him about it, and stand in the Defence of the last nine hundred yeres, alleaging many and them good causes, wherefore the Testimonie and consent of so long time should be a∣lowed, the longer he striueth, the worse shall he be esteemed for it, and the ernest mainteining of euery Truth on his side, shall goe in Print abrode for an Argu∣ment, that in dede he hath no good right.

Be it so then, The Catholike must let goe the vantage of ix.C. yeres, he must fight within that time and cumpasse that the Heretike prescribeth: And although that naturally, al men are more fauora∣ble, to them that are called in to the law, than the suers and troblers of them, and suffer the defendant, whome worldly frindship cleane forsaketh, to haue as much right as his cause will geaue him: Yet, let all thinges be forgoten, which may commend the Catholikes, and as M. Iewel hath appointed, so, let the first six hundred yeres only be considered and alowed.

But here now let me aske one Que∣stion. As it not Reason,* 1.5 like as our ad∣uersarie prescribeth vnto vs, the num∣ber and Terme of yeres, out of which we must gather our Argumentes: that so likewise he, shuld not come against vs with any Testimony or Authority, which were out of those apointed Limites and boundes of yeres? If a Challenger shall say to the Partye whome he Prouoketh, come, let vs straite waies trie the mater

betwene our selues in the plaine Fielde, and bring thou thy Sword and Buckler as I will mine: when they are agreed, vpon the Time, Place, and kind of Wea∣pon, if the Challenger would, against the others single sworde, come with sword, dager, horse, spere, Dagge, and what so euer defence or helpe he could get ••yside, should he not be compted Awretched and Contentious, and A glorious Iacke Bragger? He that biddeth the combat, seemeth to take himself for the better mā, and to like his owne cause and quarell very wel: how Ignominious then and Shamefull must it be vnto him, not to fight vpon equall conditions with hys Aduersarie?

Reason you against me (sayeth M. Iewel) out of the first six hundred yeres only: but I for all that, will be at my li∣bertie to vse any Testimonie out of the xv.C. and odde yeres sens Christ. Which in very deede is as much to say, as knele you here vpon one knee, and Fight not out of this Circle which I make to you, As for my selfe I will goe or run at my

pleasure about you, and take my vantage where I can finde it, sometimes within, sometimes without the Circle, sometimes stāding nigh, sometimes coursing about the field.

Mary Sir, if such Priuileges might be graunted to Warriers, it were an ea∣sie mater to prolong the Battell, and to winne the praise of much manlinesse, by spurring cut hither and thither, and no mater how. For, he taketh no care hereof, how truly he alleage, the Testi∣monies of these last nine hundred yeres, Or how worthie and approued Authors they be, whom he alleageth, but without exception he taketh all that he findeth, and from the highest to the lowest, from the Text to the Glose, and emong Glo∣ses from the best to the worst of them, he Taketh, and Draweth, and Heapeth a∣gainst vs, Al that may seeme to helpe his Assertions.

Tel vs therefore (I pray you M. Ie∣wel) what Equitie or Conscience you fo∣low? Will you binde the Catholikes, to the first six hundred yeres, And wil your selfe argue out of cumpasse? May not

we vse the worthie Authoritie of Boni∣facius, because he was Bishop of Rome in the yere of our Lord 680, and will you admit the sayinges and doinges of Lu∣ther, Zwinglius and Caluine, all con∣demned Persons; through the Catholike Church, and liuing xv.C yeres after Christ?

S. Bernard (you say) was A man of late yeres. So was Dionisius the Car∣thusian, So were others, whom I haue rekened vp, in the chapiter before: And therefore, by your accompt, of lesse Au∣thoritie. And why then doe you all••age not only S. Bernard,* 1.6 but Durand, Ger∣son, Alexander,* 1.7 Lynwod, Camotensis, Hugo Cardinalis,* 1.8 Eckius, Aeneas Syl∣uius, Erasmus,* 1.9 and other? I report me to the very margine of your boke,* 1.10 by that it will appeere,* 1.11 whether you do not stuffe your boke,* 1.12 with Canons, Constitutions, Gloses,* 1.13 Histories, Interpretations of scripture, Testimonies of Fathers, Opi∣nions of Scholemen. &c. such as altoge∣ther you scrape out of these last nine C. yeres. For which your so doing, if you

can bring any Reason, or shew any Spe∣ciall Pryuilege graunted to you, against the law of Nature, that you might do a∣gainst an other, that, which you would not haue done to your selfe: either, of this vnreasonable Fauor and Licence, you must geaue some cause, or els you must suffer vs to complaine of it, that you dele not with vs Indifferently.

But it will be thought, perchaunse, of others, that you alleage not y^• later Wry∣ters, of any time these nine C. yeres, for the Estimation or Credite, which you haue them in, but only, because your Ad∣uersary maketh great Price of them.

Suppose it were so: yet you doe him greate Wronge, to put him to Answe∣ring of more Witnesses, than he should doe by right: And to fill your Replie with those mennes sayinges, whose Au∣thorit••es though he doe not contemne, yet he would not haue them to possesse, & occupie y^• place, which more Auncient and worthier Persons should haue. And although we think as it becometh vs, of s. Bernard, s., Bonauēture, S. Denyse. &c.

Yet, if you would needes haue vs in Reasoning with you, not to passe the Boundes and Terme of vj.C. yeres, you shoulde not, though we alowed the Per∣sons neuer so much, bring any of A low∣er degree and later age against vs, either to stand in the place which S. Hierome, S. Ambrose, S. Augustine, or S. Chry∣sostome should occupie, either to com∣mend that place the better by their Pre∣sence, which the Auncient Fathers of the Primitiue Church, doe furnishe aboun∣dantly by themselues: and which also they only should furnishe, by your ap∣pointement. And further I say, that if you will not suffer me to take any van∣tage against you, by the testimony of any good Man or wryter of the nine hundred yeres last past, it is no equalitie, that, whther I will or no, you should make me to Answer the sayinges, which you bring against me, out of those yeres whi∣che you passe not vpon. And whereas it shall doe me no good, though I proue, that S. Bernard (for Example) in that place which you wil alleage, doth not on¦ly not hinder, but allso further my cause:

to what purpose should I spend anye¦time at all, in hearing or examining hys wordes, which, although I declare to make for me, may not be lawfully vsed of me?

And therefore, notwithstanding you iudge truly of vs herein and better of vs than of your self, that we, the Catholikes, doe not refuse the Authoritie of later Fa∣thers and Doctours, whom the Church yet neuer condemned or despised: Yet, this our credite which we haue them in, must not serue you for any cause or ex∣cuse, why ye should bring them furth a∣gainst vs, except we may doe the like a∣gainst you. For, as you haue appealed to the first vj.C. yeres, thereby to let vs of our Libertie, so we doe require you al∣so, not to passe that nūber or cumpasse of those yeres, thereby to cut away your su∣perfluitie. And in thus doing, we are not weary of the later Doctours of Chri∣stendome, nor afraid of their Iudgments but we are offended with your vainglo∣rious, and very wretched behauioure, which will not keepe the law yourselfe, that you prescribe vnto other.

Ther is, I graunt, A kind of Argumēt ad hominem, non ad rem, to the man not to the mater. As, to some of our Coun∣trie men, at this present, and them of the most Perfite and exquisite Trade, in fo∣lowing of the Gospel, if A Catholike doe saye, that Father Caluine himself, (whose Iudgment is much praised in the Con∣gregation,) was of this mind,* 1.14 and was also Zelous in it, that they did very ill, which ga••e to king Harry the viij. that he should be head of the Church: this ar∣gument so taken of his Authoritie, that was a Proude, and Folishe, And Lousie Heretike, although it be nothing worth in deede, and in that respect not to be v∣sed of A Catholike, Yet, to him that ac∣compteth of Caluine, as if he had bene one of y^e lights of the World, y^• Catholike may right wel vse it, & driue him by force of the Consequence, either to deny Cal∣uines Authority (which he wil not) Or y^• kings supremacy (which he dareth not.) So y^• against him, that is addicted to any one Opinion of his own, or of other whō he buildeth vpon, to bring an Argument grounded vpō his own Opinion & iudg∣ment,

& thereby to make him forsake his own opinion, or kepe stil in his memory the Contradiction which inwardly pin∣cheth him: It is A kind of Reasoning, good and profitable.

And, in this respect, if any Catholike were so blinde & singular, as to set more by the Glose vpon Vnā Sanctā, Extr. de Ma∣ior & Obed▪ than the Commentaries of S. Hierome, and S. Chrisostome: Or by Durand, Gerson, Lynwod. &c. than any of the most Auncient Fathers: M. Iewel then, might be suffered to argue ad homi∣nem, that is, to alleage Gloses, Schole¦men and later Doctours, to him that hath A speciall fansie vnto those, more than a∣ny of the Primitiue Church. But now, se y^• Inequality & ods. For neither D. Har••nor his Inferiors, are so ignorāt of y^• sēse & strength of this word Catholike, y^• they shuld be addicted to any one, two, or thre mens priuate sayings of what degree or time so euer they haue ben, (without th•• consent or warrant of the Church) nei∣ther shuld M. Iewel alleage vnto them, any Testimony of the last nine hundred yeres, himself referring the triall of the

the whole mater to the first vj.C. only. And hauing such Aduersaries, as are ve∣ry well content, to be ordered by the sen∣tence and Iudgment of that first age, and that Primitiue Church.

Yet go to for a while, let M. Iewel be suffered: And let it be his excuse, that he hath argued alwaies ad hominem, to the man, when he hath vsed the Testimonies of later times, thereby to impugne D. Harding. Let him say (I meane) that he hath recited in his Replye, Durand, Gerson, Biel, Denyse, Hugo Cardinall, Thomas Duns. &c. not, because himself aloweth them, but, because they are este∣med of y^• party against whō he wryteth.

But is this true? And hath not he vsed their Testimonies in respect also of hys owne opinion, & confirmed himself in it, because of their Testimonies? When he reasoneth Substantially, and Directly, and Plainly to his Purpose, and ad rem to the mater, and out of his owne Prin∣ciples (as it were) and Authorities, doth he not alleage the forsayde Doctours, al∣though they were, all the sort of them, farre vnder the first six hundred yeres,

to whiche onely he would haue the Deci∣sion of the controuersies referred? Whe∣ther this be so or no, let Examples try it.

M. Iewel is of the Opinion that no Christian Churches wer built in the Apo∣stles tyme:* 1.15 And muche lesse then Aulters (if his Logicke be good.) For may wee thinke (sayth he) that Aulters were built before the Churche? Of whiche Lye,* 1.16 we shall speake in an other place. But to my purpose. It foloweth in him:

Neyther afterward,* 1.17 when Aulters were first vsed, and so named, were they straite waye built of Stone, as Durandus and such others saie, they must needes be, and that, Quia petra erat Christus, Because Christ vvas the Stone.

Whereof then were they built,* 1.18 accor∣ding to your Opinion? And what Cause or Authoritie haue you for it? It fo∣loweth.

For Gerson saith,* 1.19 that Siluester Bisshop of Rome, first caused Stone Aultars to be made. &c.

Is Gerson then,* 1.20 of Authoritie with you? And a man of so late yeares, and little Fame and Estimation, in compa∣rison

of many Fathers and Doctours of the ix.C. yeares last past, all which you refuse, is hee nowe a witnesse for your•• Here it is plaine that you bring in this late writer, to serue directly your owne Opinion, and, that he standeth you in suche steede, that without him, you proue not that whiche you saide.

You depende not therefore vppon your Aduersaries allowing of Gerson. as who shoulde saye: if he admit the Te∣stimonie of him, then doe I confirme my Assertion, and if he doe not, yet haue I other Authorities to proue my sayinges true: but, you doe so absolutely and pro∣prely for your owne Opinion vse him, that without him, you leaue your mat∣ters vnproued. But let vs see an o∣ther Example.

It is required of M. Iewell, that forasmuche as the Catholikes coulde ne∣uer yet finde, that the Publike Seruice in the Primitiue Churche, was in any other than Greeke or Latine, and hee yet is sure of the Contrarye, that it was euery where in a tongue knowen to the

Uulgare People: he shew therefore his Profes and Authorities, suche by all likelyhode, as himselfe is perswaded withall, before he woulde haue other to allowe them. Marke then what hee sayth.

And,* 1.21 to auoyde multitude of woordes, the case beeing plaine,* 1.22 Eckius sayth, the Indians had their Seruice, in the Indian tongue, Durandus saith, The Iewes, that were Christened, had their Seruice in the Hebrew tongue.

Nycolas Lyra, and Thomas de Aquine, saye, The Common Seruice in the Primi∣tiue Churche was in the Common vulgare tongue.

And in the next leafe folowing, he alea∣geth Aeneas Syluius and an Extrauagant de Officio Iudicis Ordinarij.* 1.23 and Iohn Billet in Summa de Diuinis officijs.

But what are all these?* 1.24 Were they not writers of very late Yeares? Were they not Popisshe Doctours, or Po∣pysshe Proctours, not woorthe the

naming (by M. Iewels Accompt) and much lesse worth the Crediting? Why thē doth he alleage them? Will he saye, he condescended herein to D. Hardinges Infirmitie? And, that he vseth his owne Doctours for the better contentation of his mind? No verely he must not say so. For he was required to bring his owne groundes and witnesses, and not such, as are alowed only per accidens, that is, because it so happeneth, that an other mā liketh them. He was content allso to shew his profes, and to yeld to the fore∣said Request, both for the goodnesse and pregnancie of the cause,* 1.25 and also specially, Good Christian Reader, (sayeth he,) for the better Contentation of thy mind.

If the cause then be good and pregnāt, why vse you so ill and baren Testimo∣nies, as all theirs are (if your accompt be true) which come furth, after the first six hundred yeres? And, if you seeke af∣ter the Contentation of your Readers mind, you signifie thereby, that the Au∣thorities, which you alleage, are wor∣thy and alowable. Not, because Doctor

Harding will make no Exception, per∣chaunce, against them, but because your∣selfe like them and esteeme them.

Otherwise, what Contentation of the Readers mind, call you this, to Reason vpon their Authorities, whom yourself would haue to be contemned? Or, to establish any opinion vpō such groundes vpon which you can build nothing, ex∣cept vnto him, which holdeth them for sure and good? Of which sort of men, you make not (I trust) euery your good Christian Reader to be. Especially, ma∣ny of them, by your oft Appealing to the first six hundred yeres, being occasioned, to set litle by anye Testimonie of lower time and degree.

Thus we see againe, that M. Iewel hath vsed the late wryters Testimonie Eckius, Durand, Thomas Aquinas, and Iohn Billet, not, because of D. Hardinges opinion or regard of them (which how greate or litle it is, he dothe not know) but, because of his owne li∣king of them.

Neither doth he peeke (as it were) an

occasion to vse them, out of his Aduer∣saries estimation of them, but whether D. Harding aloweth them or no, M. Iewell flatly vseth them, nor is asha∣med of the latenes of them. A thing, at other times so materiall with hym, that on paine of forfaiting all a mans la∣bour, none must be brought in for wit∣nesses, but suche as are, within little, a thowsand yeare olde.

See one place more and with that, we shall ende this Chapiter. It is a que∣stion betweene the Catholikes and the Heretikes, Whether the woordes of Christe, in the sixt of S. Iohn, are to be vnderstanded, onely of the spirituall eating of his body, Or of the Spirituall and Sacramentall bothe. The firste is the newe Maisters, the seconde is the Olde Fathers. To proue the firste, that the wordes of our Sauiour in that Chapiter, are taken and meant of spiri∣tuall eating onely, Thus sayth Mai∣ster Iewell.

For to leaue S. Augustine,* 1.26 Origine, and others of that age: Nicolas Lyra, a man of later yeres saith, The said words of Christ,

must needes be taken Spiritually, and none otherwise.

Lykewise, one Michael Vaehe, one of late yeares, a man of M. Hardings owne syde, touching the same matter, wryteth thus (against Luther.) This saith he, is a weake reason, for, the woordes, that be spoken of Spirituall eating▪ He Appli∣eth to the Sacramentall eating. Here may M. Harding see, besydes S. Augustine, Origine, and other olde Catholike Fa∣thers, whose Woordes I haue not a∣leaged, what men he hathe called Newe Maisters. Nicolas Lyra, was an Englisshe man, and liued two hundred yeares before Luther. Michaell Vaehe, was of late yeares, and wrote namelye against Lu∣ther.

Heere I trowe,* 1.27 it is perceaued that M. Iewell vseth late writers Testimo∣nies, in defence of his syde. The que∣stion is, whether the sixt of S. Iohn, be vnderstanded of Spirituall eatinge onely or no. If it be, let vs set your Authorities (M. Iewell) and reasons.

The new masters (as D. Hard. tear∣meth them) expound it so. Thei are not all new masters (say you) that haue so takē th••

How proue you that? For Nicolas Lyra (You Aunswere) saith it▪ and one Micha∣el Vaehe one of late yeares.* 1.28 They saye it not, that it is to be vnderstanded onely of Spirituall eating, but of Spirituall eating without ONELY. Suppose yet they saide it, what were that to purge the new Maisters of the fault of Singula∣ritie, or to perswade your Reader that it must be so taken? I doe not disprayse neither Nicolas Lyra, neither Michaell Uehe, but I can not but mislike it great∣ly in you, to aleage their Names in your defense, whose Authorities are neyther Excellent, nor Yeares Auncient. Espe∣cially, whereas you would seeme to haue S. Augustine, Origine, and others of that age, to stande with you in this matter. But you leaue them and come to Nico∣las Lyra.

What doe you M. Iewel? Is there any man, in all the Catholike Churche, whiche will giue you leaue,* 1.29 to answere him rather by Nicolas Lyra, then S. Augustine? And dothe it become your Manheade and Corage, (whiche is so great, that you will haue Controuersies

examined by no later writers, then those of the first six hundred yeares,) thus to leaue, S. Augustine (whose Authoritye is worthelye regarded of all wise men) and cleane to Nicolas Lyra, whose testi∣mony any man (except it be of contempt) may lawfully let alone with out vsing or alowing of it? You commend hym to vs in two poyntes, He was (you saye) An English man, and liued two hundred yeres before Luther. I haue reade the contra∣rye, that he was a Iew, borne at Liere: neuerthelesse if you for Countrye sake (as borne perchaunce in the old or new Iury in Londō) or for Age sake, as liuing two hundred yeres before Luther, doe thynke that he is a worthy witnesse to Englishe men of this age, I will not reproue your kindnesse of hart towardes your Coun∣trymen, nor affection to the time later by seuen hundred yeres than the Primityue church vnto which you apeale so precise∣ly: But this, who can abyde? To consi∣der M. Iuell, so great a Contemner of later Dyuines and Scholemen, to leaue S. Augustine,* 1.30 Origen and others, and to defend hys felowes, by Nycolas Lyra and

Michaell Vaehe? And not onely that, but to crake (as it were) that S. Augustin is also with him, and yet not so muche as to name the Place where it might bee sought and founde. For consider his wordes.

Here maye M. Hardinge see besydes S. Augustine,* 1.31 Origene, and other olde Catholike Fathers, whose wordes I haue not allegaed,* 1.32 what men he hath called New Maisters.

In deede,* 1.33 hee may see that you ha••e brought furth, Nycolas Lyra, and one Michael Vaehe: but y^• he may se them, by∣sydes S. Augustine, Origene, and other Olde Catholike Fathers, Howe is it pos∣sible? For your selfe confesse, that, you haue not alleaged their wordes. And how then shoulde he see them? If D. Har∣ding doe no more, but quote onely the Places of the Doctours, in whiche his sayengs be verefied, And leaue the wri∣ting out of their whole Sentences: all this (you wil say) is but a Camissado,* 1.34 these be but visardes: They be no faces: They are brought in, like Mummers, for a shew, and say nothing. And what pretie Coū∣terfeiting

may we call this, to alleage A later writers saying fully, and not so much as quote the place of the olde Fa∣thers: And yet, to make an O••tentation with, here may M. Harding see, bysides S. Augustine, Origen, and other old Catho∣like Fathers whose wordes I haue not alle∣ged, what men he hath called new masters? Uerely, this is biside all reason, to tel me that bysides S. Augustine &c. I may See what Nycolas Lyra testifieth, wher no one Sentence or Halfe sentence of S. Augu∣stines is to be Seen, Heard, or Under∣standed, in the place on which I am bid to looke.

But,* 1.35 I haue not alleged their wordes, sayeth M. Iewel. And why did you not, I pray you, Sir? Were you in such hast to come to Nycolas Lyra and Michael Vaehe, that you could not cary with S. Augustin, Origene, and other old Catholike Fathers? Is it your maner of writing, to spare the Alleging of old Fathers? Or, was their word, not worth the hearing? Or, must we needes beleue your Assertion, with∣out further euidence? The Truthe is, neither Saint Augustine, nor Origen,

nor any other old Catholike Fathers did precisely say, that the sixth of S. Ihon, must be vnderstanded only of the Spiri∣tual eating of Christes fleshe. And you, although you could not haue their voy∣ces, yet you were so bold as to vse their Names: And pretending, as thoughe it were easie to see, that they did testifie for you, so, you leaue them quite and cleane, and bring in, Nycolas Lyra an Englishe∣man, and Michael Uaehe of late yeres, to speake somewhat for you.

Consider now (Indifferent Reader) whether M. Iewel vseth the later Wry∣ters, as Necessary Witnesses in his owne cause, or no? And whether he bringeth them in, as Men whom D. Harding is well content withall, Or as Persons, without whom, his sayinges, could haue no Probalitie at all? For, if he had alle∣ged, first S. Augustine, Origen, and other old Catholike Fathers, and afterwardes, had rehersed the Opinions and Iudg∣mentes of later writers: he might haue ben thought to haue done it for A Sur∣plussage, and to haue sought thereby, to perswade rather his Aduersarie, than to

Confirme his owne Assertion. But on the other side now, to leaue S. Augustine, Origen and other Fathers, and to stay on∣ly vpon Lyra and Uaehe, what other thing is it, than to Protest that by their Testimonies his cause is Sufficientlye proued? And, to take vantage of their sayinges, which liued out of the six hun∣dred, next after Christ? And, this is that which deserueth iust Indignation, that any man, bearing the Person and Face, of one that had discretion or Conscience, should bind an other to a certaine com∣passe of Time and Yeres, which, in no case, he should passe, in Debating of any controuersie: And yet, would in the meane Time himselfe, Argue, Reason, and Conclude, out of any Time, and re∣quire to haue it stand, for profe good and sufficient, of his owne Assertions: And to vse that kind of Libertie or Prerogatiue, not only when he speaketh ad hominem, that is, to the Meaning, Sense, Opini∣on, or Fancie of the man, with whom he hath to doe, but also, ad rem, that is, ac∣cording to his owne Meaning & Iudg∣ment, in which, he taketh the testimonies

by himselfe alleaged, to perteine, Direct∣ly, and in deede, to Confirmation of the cause, which he susteineth.

Yet (as I saied before) let M. Iewels excuse be, that he hath vsed Late w••yters Testimonies, not for any stay of his own Opinions (the contrary whereof I haue shewed) but to stop only D. Hardinges mouthe, and to set one Papist against an other, Let him so saie, and let vs so take it: yet, is this no indifferent dealing. For, if he wil bind vs to the first six hun∣dred yeres, and himselfe yet, will presse vs with Authorities of later age, either he mindeth that we shall Answer him in them, or holde our peace and be still.

If we shall answer: why apointed he the Lymites of six hundred yeres to be kept of vs? For, when he prouoketh vs, with mater collected out of the cumpasse of them, we must needes come also out of them, and ioyne with him, therevpon.

And, if he minded that we should not at all Answer him, and that himselfe yet, would Obiect suche Testimonies vnto vs: Why did he then Obiect them? Ex∣cept we shall Iudge of him, that he is so

Folishe, as to apoint it, or so Proude and Stately, as to conceiue it, that it maye be lawfull for him, in fighting against his Aduersarie, to haue certaine Places open vnto his Desperate Foynes, and that no Warding of the Daunger, and no Buck∣ler should be vsed. And therefore,

It is not to be graunted vnto you M. Iewel, to Bind vs to the first six hun∣dred yeres, And to be Loose yourselfe, concerning any witnesse or Authoritie, of the nine hundred folowinge: To set vs within a Circle, and yourselfe to Dis∣course out of Order and Cumpasse: To forbid vs, the Alleaging of S. Bernard, and yet to charge vs with the Opinion of Michael Uehe, or any such other. No Sir: to the first six hundred you haue Appealed, to the first six hundred only, you shall stand.

If you wil Replie, they be our owne Doctoures, and therefore we maye not Refuse them: We Answer shortly vnto you, that whereas in your Singulare Iudgement they be no Doctoures at all, And whereas you will not Suffer them to be O••res, Or that we maie

alleage them and recite thē as our own: we therefore in this Case and State of Reasoning with you, doe not take them for our owne. Yea, they must be so comp∣ted vpon and so set aside, as if they wer no mens witnesses at all, Because you, in Drawing the mater to the first six hun∣dred yeres only, doe Import and Con∣clude thereby, that, of al later Times and Writers, you would haue A sad Silence to be agreed vpon, and kept.

But, where will M. Iewels Glorie be then? And, if he himselfe shall vse no Testimonie vnder the first vj.C. yeres: how litle wil his Replie be? How vncer∣taine must his Answers be? How greate Blindnes and Silence must he come vn∣to? Take away from M. Iewel, and his felowes the last nine hundred yeres, and you take away from them the Flowers of their Diuinitie.* 1.36 Out of those yeres, they Rake all the euill that is spoken, of Popes, Cardinals, Priestes. &c. that by reueling other mennes Turpitude, they may commend their owne bare Hone∣sties. Out of those, come many Canons of Councels, Constitutions of Empe∣rours,

Uarieties of Historiographers, Conclusions and Distinctions of Schole men, in the number of which, it is easy to find somewhat, alwaies, that shall sound against the Catholikes. Either, because all thinges, are not to be taken as they lie, but neede an Interpretation: either because, when many write of one Fact, Or intreate of one mater, they do not al∣waies so throughly agree, in euery point of the Historie or Question, but that he, whome it Pleaseth to striue therevpon with an other, may sone find A doubt Or Argument to serue his humor of Con∣tradiction. Out of those, many Gloses are peeked, so Obscure or Trifling, that were it not, for the Diligence of Here∣tikes, which haue brought them furth in to light, They would as litle haue ben sought for of the Catholikes, As they are now litle estemed of them, when they are Found out and shewed to them by the Heretikes.

Take therefore, the wrytinges of the last nine hundred yeres, awaye from the Protestantes, and there must needes fo∣low, such lacke of mater, to make vp

their Tales, that they will sone be at an end, both in writing and in Preachinge. And, not only concerning their ill Pur∣poses: (As, to bring either the Departed into hatred, by opening their faultes, Or them that at this Present line, into In∣famie, by charging them with the faultes of their Forefathers (but, concerning al∣so good and holsome Lawes, Decrees, Definitions, Orders of Gouernement, Customes, Ceremonies, which haue ben in these last nine hundred yeres, Wisely apointed, a••d Profitablie continued, If nothing, that is testified by the Writings and Practise of them, shall stand in any steede to make a Sentence or Argumēt: what Confusion, Contention, Destructi∣on, Blindnesse, Desperatnesse, will be caused in both States, Spirituall and Temporall, It is easy to be percea••ed.

What Church shall keepe her Priui∣leges? what Clergie continue in any Or∣der of Seruing God? what King or Em∣perour, maineteine the Crowne vpon his heade? what state of Common wealth in all Christendome maye be defended?

If, the Recordes, Wrytinges, Answers,

Decrees, Actes, Dispensations, Conclu∣sions, and Lawes of the last nine hun∣dred yeres, must be, all, either vtterly re∣fused, Or beter Examined before they be receiued?

For in these later yeres, Countries haue ben conuerted: Religion hath ben Planted: Heresies, by the Authoritie of Councels, haue ben condemned: The Empire, hath ben translated: Our owne Realme of England hath ben conquered, And, in all these so greate pointes, the Iudgmente and Sentence of the Pope hath alwaies ben regarded. And that, which at this day is holden for Truth, in A thousand cases both Spirituall and Temporall, dependeth in deede vpon the Decree and Order, which the Gouernors of the Church for that time, made for it and apointed, when the case was first mo∣ued, Or exhibited.

If therefore, no Authoritie or Testi∣monie of these later nine hundred yeres, must be admitted, let M. Iewel with all his owne wit, And Policy of his frendes byside, see how he can begin the World a freshe.

And, the foundation of six hundred yeres standing on sure grounde, let him pull downe all, that hath beene builded, and shew vs some fyne pe••ce of worke of his owne, suche I trowe as shall in all Pro∣portion agree w^t the Primitiue Churche and ryse in a moste goodly Ordre of eue∣ry H••ndred yeare since, one aboue an o∣ther, vntill he come vnto this very time, in whiche he liueth, and geue men to see moste plainly and euidently, that his Churche now, is of the same makinge, without any Imperfection, Or gaping of the worke that may be espied. Let him I say make an Uniforme and Apte worke.

For if he will beginne at the ende of the six Hundred yeares, and immediate∣ly, ioyne thereto, the state of His Con∣gregation at this Present: either it will be a Miraculous worke to see foundaci∣ons with me••ely high wals, and a Roufe a great waye from them, without any Stone, Timber, Staye or Workeman∣shippe betweene: Either will it be a ve∣ry E••ilfauoured matter, to see one peece hanging so farre from the other, as Ger∣mans

of Heretikes lippes doe hange to∣geather. If therefore your building be Sure and True, Ioine yeres to yeres, and without all gappes or holes, make the whole, Perfite, Close, and One.

But ye are as wel able to doe it, and knit or ioine your Church to the Primi∣tiue, as ye are to builde vp againe, Al the Abbeies in England, Or proue vnto vs that the Stones of them, which lie now broken in high waies, or were caried out of the waie, to building of Gentelmens places, doe answer rightly in the forme which they haue at this present, to the Foundations and Pillers, remainyng, yet, vnto some Religious houses, from whence they haue ben taken. Especial∣ly this Principle of your Artificio••snes standing, that the Testimonie of these last nine hundred yeres, is not to be Al∣leaged or Alowed.

Which being so Uniust and Unreaso∣nable, as I haue declared, Either, let M. Iewel vtterly put out of his Replye, what so euer he hath gathered and scra∣ped, out of Canons, Gloses, Scholemen,

Heretikes, Historiographers, and other Wryters whatsoeuer of later yeres, And from hensefurth, fill no more Papers with such kind of stuffe: Either els, let him be ashamed, to bind vs to the first six hundred only, himselfe not able to Conteine himselfe, Or Maintaine hys cause, within that cumpasse.

But, I know, I aske his losse. For, If he may not peeke out of all times such Signes of Defence for his cause, as ma•••• seeme to serue for it, he will be quickly vndone in the best Limme he hath, And, without all doubt will be ••ongtied. As, on the other side, If he will set vs haue right, and suffer vs to proue our cause by godly and Lerned witnesses, of what so euer Age they be, so that he can make no lawfull Exception against them, then is he vtterly vndone in his owne Con∣science: knowing that the Catholike Church, doth expressely and by name, condemne his Masters Heresies. So that it is not otherwise likely, but he will haue vs to stand fast bound to the first six hundred yeres, and will reserue

vnto himselfe, that special Priuilege, to Take and Make his vantage, Where, and When so euer he may.

Notes

• * 1.1

  How the heretikes do apointe 1. questiōs 2. Order of dispu∣ting 3. Ma¦ner of Au∣thorities, 4. Age of the wit∣nesses: all at pleasure but no∣thing, af∣ter right and reson.
• * 1.2

  Reasona∣ble De∣maundes.
• * 1.3

  Ambr. lib. 5.
• * 1.4

  Ep. 33.
• * 1.5

  A most reasonable condition.
• * 1.6

  Iewel.
• * 1.7

  260
• * 1.8

  195.
• * 1.9

  150.
• * 1.10

  199
• * 1.11

  175.
• * 1.12

  177
• * 1.13

  10.
• * 1.14

  Com: ••, Amos
• * 1.15

  Iew. 19••.
• * 1.16

  In the Chapiter of Lyes.
• * 1.17

  Iew.
• * 1.18

  Ra.
• * 1.19

  Iew.
• * 1.20

  Ra
• * 1.21

  Iew. 175.
• * 1.22

  Eckius in locis Com. Durand. lib. 4. ca. 1. Nicolaus Lyra. Tho∣mas in. 1. ad Cor. 14.
• * 1.23

  177.
• * 1.24

  Ra.
• * 1.25

  Iew. 175.
• * 1.26

  Iew. 104
• * 1.27

  Ra.
• * 1.28

  M. Iew. belieth his witnesses.
• * 1.29

  M. Iew. leaueth S Augustine &c. •• folo∣weth Ni∣colas Ly∣ra:
• * 1.30

  Absurde.
• * 1.31

  104
• * 1.32

  M. Iew. belieth himselfe.
• * 1.33

  Ra.
• * 1.34

  I••w. 6.
• * 1.35

  This is worse than mūmery.
• * 1.36

  The flow¦ers of the new Gos∣pell.