A dyaloge of syr Thomas More knyghte: one of the counsayll of oure souerayne lorde the kyng [and] chauncellour of hys duchy of Lancaster. Wherin be treated dyuers maters, as of the veneration [and] worshyp of ymages [and] relyques, prayng to sayntys, [and] goyng o[n] pylgrymage. Wyth many othere thyngys touching the pestylent sect of Luther and Tyndale, by the tone bygone in Sarony, and by tother laboryed to be brought in to Englond

¶The .xviii. chapyter.

¶The author sheweth y^t in y^e cōdem¦nacyō of herety••es / y^e clergye might lawfully do mich more sharpely thā they do / & y^t ī dede y^e clergy doth now no more agaīst heretykes / thē y^t ap••s¦tel cōsaileth / & y^e old holy doctors did

FOr as for y^e clergye whō they la¦••our to bryng ī hatred vnder y^e fals accusacyō of trueltye / do no more therin thā saīt Austyn / saīt Hierom & o¦ther holy fathers haue bē wo•• to do by∣fore / nor no fe••ther thā thapostle aduy¦seth hym self. For they do no more but whā one heretyque after warnīg wyll not 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ••••t wa••eth wors / eschew hī thā & auoyd hī out of Crist{is} 〈◊〉〈◊〉. which is y^e very thīg y^t saīt Poule coūsay••eth wher he wryteth to Cy••us / here••••cū h•• mi••ē post primā & sc••••a I correptionē de∣uit••. And this is mych lesse y^t y^e clergye doth to heretyk{is} / thā saīt peter dyd vn¦to Ananias & Saphyra for a far smal••¦ler mater / y^t is to wit for theyr vntrew sayng & kepīg asyde a portion of theyr own money / whā they made sēblaūce as though they broght to thapostle all togeder. For though they were not kyl¦led by his own hād / yet appe••eth it wel y^e god aylled thē both twayn by saīt Pe¦ter his mean{is} as gouernour of his chir¦che / to y^• ••erful ex̄aple of al such as wold after y^• breke their {pro}myse & vow to god wyllīgly made of thē self or theyr own good. which thīg luther & tyndal wold haue al mē do now. Dyd not saīt poule wryte vnto y^e corynthyes / y^t the•• shold delyuer to y^e deuyll hym y^t had defoyl••d his fathers wyfe / to y^e punyshemēt of hys body that y^e spirite myght be saued in the day of iudgement? what say we of Hymynius and Alexāder / of whom 〈…〉〈…〉 to the coryn••••yes also

••••••yneum & Alexandrum tradid•• sa∣th••••••/vt discant nō blasphemare. ¶ I haue quod he bytaken Hymyne•••• and Alexander to the deuyll / to ••eche them to leue theyr blasphemy. In whyche wordys we may well lerne / that saint Poule as apostle & spyrytuall gouer∣nouce in that cuntre fyndyng theym ••wayn fallen from the fayth of chryst in to the blasphemy of that they were bounden to worshyppe / dyd cause the deuyll to turment and punyshe theyr bodyes / whyche euery man may well wyt was no small payne / and peraduē∣ture noth wythout deth also. For we fynd no thyng of theyr amendement. And this bodyly punyshemēt dyd saint Poule as yt appereth vppō heretiques / so that yf the clergye dyd vn to myche more blasphemouse heretyques than I weene they twayne were / myche more sorow than saynt Poule dyd to theym / they shold neyther do yt w^tout good cause nor w^tout great authoryte / and euydent example of chryst{is} blyssed apostles. And surely whā our sauyour hīselfe calleth such heretiques woluys ••lo••ed in shepys skynnys / and wold y^t his shepeherdys the gouernours of his ••lokke shold in such wyse auoyde them as very shepeherd is wold auoyde very woluys / ther ys lytell dowte but as an honorable prelate of this realme in his most erudyte boke answerith vnto Lu¦ther / the prelat{is} chryst{is} chyrch rather ought tēporally to destroy those ra••••∣••ouse wolues / thā suffer thē to wyr••te and deuou••e euerlastyngly the ••okke that Cryste hath cōmyt••ed vn to theyr cur••/and the ••lokke that hym self dyed for to saue yt from the woluys mouthe. But now though yt well appere as me thynketh yt doth that y^e clergye myght in thys case ryght sore procure agaynst 〈…〉〈…〉 ther than the olde holy fathers dyd in theyr 〈◊〉〈◊〉 and the blessed apostle coū∣sayleth them to do. But all the sore pu∣nyshement of heretyques wherwyth such folke as fauoure them wold fayne dy••••ame the clergye / ys and hath be•••• for the great vtrages and temporall harmes that such heretiques haue bene alway ••••nt to do / and sedycyous com¦mocyons y^t they be wont to make / vp∣syde the far passyng spyrytuall hurty•• y^t they do to mēnys sowlys / deuysed & executed agaīst thē of necessyte by good crysten pryncys & polytyque rulers of y^e temporaltie / for as mych as theyr wys¦domes well perceyued y^t y^e people shold not fayle to fal in to many sore & intol¦lerable troubles / yf such sedi••i••us sect{is} of heretyques were not by greuous pu¦nyshment repressed in the begynny••g / & y^e sparkle well quenched ••re yt were suffred to grow to ouer grete a fyre.

¶Forsoth quod your frend yt appereth well y^t the clergye is not in thys mater to be blamed as many men reken. For yt semeth that the sore punyshment of heretyques ys deuysed not by the cler∣gye / but by temporall pryncys & good lay peple / and not without grete cause ¶Wel quod I & to thentēt y^t ye shal {per}∣ceyue 〈◊〉〈◊〉 mych y^e better / & ouer y^e byleue your 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ••yen & not my wordys in ma¦ny thing{is} y^t ye haue herd of my mouth•• we wyll not parte thys nyghte but I shall delyuer in to your hand{is} here m•• bokys thā ye wyll rede ouer tyll to mo∣••ow. But for that ye shal neyther nede to rede all / nor lese tyme in sekyng for that ye shold se / I haue layd you y^• pla∣cys redy wyth ryshes bytwene the le∣••ys / & notes marked in the mergent{is} / where the mater ys towched. ¶So ••••used I to be borne in to his chamber a boke of 〈◊〉〈◊〉/and ••ertayn workys 〈…〉〈…〉

and some other holy d••ct•••••• ••herwith all a worke or twayne of Luther and as many of Tyndall. And in thys wyse went we to souper / and ••n the morowe forbare I to speke w^t hym tyl nere dyner tyme. At whyche ••ure me∣tynge / he shewed me y^t in the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 where the ry••his lay / namely in caus•• xxii. questione quint••/& dy•••••••• ••••her of the questyons c••nsequētly 〈◊〉〈◊〉/he had sene at full that y^e clergye d••the at thys day no ferther for the p••nysh∣ment of heretyques / than dyd the old fathers and holy doctours & sayntis in tyme passed•• as by theyr own wordys there alledged doth open and pl••yn•••• pere. And that as well the clergye in y^e persecuciō of heretyques lawfully may do / as the temporall pryncys in warre ag••ynst infydelys be depely 〈◊〉〈◊〉 to do / mych more than th••y 〈◊〉〈◊〉 do / or of longe tyme haue done / or yet as it semeth go about to d••. And ••uer this he sayd y^t he had sene of Luthers owne wordys worse than he had euer h••rd rehersed / & in Tyndall worse yet in ma¦ny thyngys thā he saw in Luther hym self. And in Tyndals boke of obedyēs he sayd y^t he had sounden what thynge Tyndall sayth agaynst myracles and agaynst the prayenge to sayntys.

¶Mary q I & these two maters made vs two mych bysynes byfore your ••••∣yng to y^e vniuersyte. I wold it h••d hap∣ped you & me to haue red ouer that boke of hys byfore. how be yt in good fayth if ye wel / we shal yet peruse ••••••r hi•• r••¦sons in those poyntys / & cōsyder what weyght is in thē. ¶Nay by my tr••uth quod your frend we shall nede now to lose no tyme therin. For as ••••r myra∣cles / he sayth nothing in effect but that whych I layd agaynst them byfore / y^t the myracles were the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of the deuyll. 〈…〉〈…〉 I sayde y^t yt myght peraduenture be sayde so h•• s••yth that in d••de yt ys so / aproueth y•• yet lesse thē I dyd. And therfore as for that 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of hys without better profe ys of lytell weyght. ¶Forsoth quod I Tyndals word alone ascrybyng al the myracles to the deuyll / o••ght not to wey mych among 〈…〉〈…〉 agaīst the wrytynge of holy saynt Austeyn / saynt ••i••••••m••/saynt Ambrose / saynt Chrysosto••e / saynt Gregory / and ma∣ny ••n other holy dyctour / wrytyng ma¦ny a grete myracle don at holy pylgry¦m••gys and sayntys relyques / done in wo••••̄ presē••e of many substauncyal folk / and dyuers done in theyr owne syght. All whyche myracles all those blessyd sayntys do ascrybe vnto the worke of god / & to y^e h••nour of those holy sainti•• th••t w••re worshypped at those pylgry∣m••gis. Agaynst all whom when Tyn¦d••ll ascryb••th theym all to the d••uyll / he playnly sheweth hym self as fayth∣full as he wolde seme / very nere syh•••• to t••infydelyte of those Iewes y^t ascry¦bed Cryst{is} myracles to the deuyll / s••¦yng y^t he dyd caste out deuyls by the ••••∣wer of Bealsabu•• prynee of deuylys. ¶Surely quod your frend and as for that he reasoneth agaynst praynge to sayntys is very bare. ¶It must nedys q I be bare / excepte he well auoyde y^e myracles. Wherto whē he hath nothīg to say but to ascrybe goddys work{is} to y^e deuyll / he sheweth hym self dreuyn to a n••row strayte. For he & his felowes 〈◊〉〈◊〉 as touchynge myracles / neyther haue god wyllyng / nor y^e deuyll able / to shew eny for y^e profe of theyr part / no•• I truste in god neuer they shall.

¶In fayth quod your frend as for re∣s••••ing the mater of prayng to saynt{is} / he y•• not worth the redyng•• now. For all the substaunce in 〈◊〉〈◊〉 y^t ys 〈…〉〈…〉

¶That is quod I no meruayle for he hath not herd it. ¶In fayth q••••d your ••••end & of hys owne makyng he layeth argumēt{is} for yt such as he ly•••• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 he layeth forth fay••••ly / and thā doth answere them so slenderly / and all hys ••••le mater in those poyntys and other so playnely con••utyd by the olde holy fathers / y^t yt I had sene so myche by∣fore / yt had ben lykely to haue shorted myche parte of our long cōmunicacion. ¶For by my trouth q he whā I consy∣der both y^e partys well / & rede Luthers wu••d{is} & Tyndals in some pla••es wher y•• layed me the ryshes / I can not but wōder y^t either eny almayne could I ly••e ••••e tone / or ••••y englyshe man y^e tother. ¶I can not myche meruayle quod I ••••ough many lyke them well. For sych there ys no 〈◊〉〈◊〉 where in there ••••••∣••eth plētye of such as be nought / what wonder ys yf that vycyouse folke ••all to the fauoure of theyr lyke? And then as for such whē theyr hartys are onys fyxed vppon theyre blynde a••••eccyons / a man may wyth as myche frute prech to a poste / as reason wyth theym to the contrary. For they no thynge po••der what ys resonably spoken to them ••u•• wherto theyr 〈…〉〈…〉cyō inclyn•••••• that thynge they 〈◊〉〈◊〉 to and the other byleue / or at the le••••e wyse y^e way they walke & ••••y they byl••••e yt. For in good fayth that they so byleue in d••de / theyr ••aters be so madde y^t I byleue yt not. And yet make thei sēblauns as though they byleued that no man were able to confu••e Luther or Tyndall / where me thynketh for these mathers of theyre heresyes that they so set forth yf the ••••dyenes were indyfferent / there were not in this world a man more mete to 〈…〉〈…〉 Colyns alone / yf 〈…〉〈…〉 la••••••th owte scryptu••e ••o ••••deleem 〈◊〉〈◊〉 faste as they both•• And in good fayt ••e they both expow••e yt as maddely as he. And so helpe me god as me thīketh y^t man ys as madde as eny of all th••••/whych when he seeth the ryghte fayth of Cryste ••••nty••ued in his ••••tholy••ue chyrche so many hundred y••••s and on that syde so many gloryouse martyrs / so many blessed confessours / so many godly vyrgynes / and in all that tyme vertue had in honour / fasting / prayer / and 〈◊〉〈◊〉 had in pryce / god and his sayntys worshypped / hys sacrament is had in reuerence / chrystē soul ys tender∣ly 〈◊〉〈◊〉 for / holy vowes kept & obser¦ued / vyrgynyte preched & praysed / pyl∣grim••g{is} deuoutly vysyted / euery kynd of good workes cōmended / And seeth now 〈◊〉〈◊〉 start vppe •• new secte set∣tyng for the ••••ne y^e contrary / destroyng ••hrystes holy sacramentys / pullynge downe chryst{is} crosse / blasphemyng his blessed sayntys / destroyng•• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 deuocyō / 〈…〉〈…〉 to pray for theyr fathers 〈…〉〈…〉 fastyng dayes / settyng 〈◊〉〈◊〉 thought the holy ••••yes / pul∣lynge downe the chyrchys / ••aylynge agaynst the masse / vylanousely deme∣ny••gth•• blessed sacrement of y^e awter the sacred body of our sauyour Chryst / •• And seeth the tone syde and the conty∣nuaūce therof so clerely {pro}ued by many a thowsande myracle / so clerely testy∣fyed by y^e vertuouse and erudyte book{is} of all the 〈…〉〈…〉 de holy doctours frome the appostles tyme to our dayes / and seeth on the ••othe••syde a fond frere and his felowes wythout wytte or grace ••ere vs in hand that all those holy fathers neuer vnderstode y^e scrypture / but one∣ly these be••••ys that teche vs vice as fast as euer the tother taughte vs vertue / & y^e seeth on the tone syde saīt Cypryane / Syn•• Hyerome / saynt Ambrose / saynt

〈1 page〉〈1 page〉

may be party••ers of y^e heuenly blesse / whych the blood of goddys own sonne hath bought vs vnto. And this prayer q I seruynge vs for grace / let vs now ••yt dow•••• to diner. Whiche we dyd. ¶And after dyner depar••••ed he home•• toward you / and I to the courte.