A dyaloge of syr Thomas More knyghte: one of the counsayll of oure souerayne lorde the kyng [and] chauncellour of hys duchy of Lancaster. Wherin be treated dyuers maters, as of the veneration [and] worshyp of ymages [and] relyques, prayng to sayntys, [and] goyng o[n] pylgrymage. Wyth many othere thyngys touching the pestylent sect of Luther and Tyndale, by the tone bygone in Sarony, and by tother laboryed to be brought in to Englond

The .vii. chapyter.

¶The mesenger moueth a questyō / it a man be sworne by a iudge to say the trouth of hī self in a cryme wher∣of he ys had suspect / whether he may not lawfully on hys othe swere vn∣trewth / where he thynkyth y^e treuth cā not be {pro}uyd agaīst hym. wherūto thauthor āsweryth y^t he is boūdē vp¦pō {per}ell of {per}iury to say & cōfes trouth And y^t mych more syn & folye bothe was it thē for y^e mā y^t thus was abiu¦ryd to forswere him self in the thīg y^t he wist well wold be {pro}uid / & a shame lesse foly to stand styll by hys {per}iury / whā he saw y^e mater so clerely {pro}ued in dede. And w^t thys fynyshyth he y^e mater of hys abiuracyon.

IN good fayth q he I begyn in thys mater to be of your mynd For y^e mater beyng so playn & clerely {pro}¦ued / it was & is both syn & foly to stand ī y^e deny••̄g. But there cometh a thīg in my mīd thogh it be sūwhat out of our mater / wherin I wolde be glad to here what ye thīk. ¶what thyng ys y^• q I•• Mary q he I haue hard sū well lerned men say yf a mā were accused of a faut y^t were trew in dede / yet if it be secret & cā not be {pro}ued / in ā othe put vnto him he may & ought to swere nay because y^• of secret & vnknowen thyng{is} no mā •• be hys iudge. For onely god is iuge of man{is} harte. And / yf he shold cōfesse it where he nedyth not before 〈◊〉〈◊〉 cōpetēt

iudge / y^t is to wyt hys secrete faut opē¦ly before mē wherof only god is iudge / thā shuld he defame him selfe / & y^t were, grete syn. For holy scrypture sayth / cu∣rā habe de bond noīe. Take hede of thy good name. Et meliorē nomē bonū q diuitie multe. Better ys a good name thē mych rychesse. And yt saythe also / Maledict{us} homo q negligit famā ••uā. A cursed ys y^t man y^t careth not what mē say of hī. And therfore I haue hard som well lernyd men say / y^t in this case a man may boldely deny the matere vppon hys othe be yt neuer so trew / so y^t yt be so secrete as yt be not able to be {pro}ued by wytnesse. ¶Forsoth quod I it ys a large & a long mater to speke of {per}¦••ury. But as for thys poynt I hold it ī my mynde lytyll questyō. For I holde thys onys for a sure & ā infallible cōclu¦syō / y^t a mā may neuer lawfully be for∣sworne. Mary trouth it is y^t a mannys oth receyueth interpretacyō / & is not alway bounden precysely to y^e wordis. As yf a iuge wold swere me generally in a courte to make trew āswer to such thyng{is} as shuld be asked of me / & after myne othe gyuen / he wolde aske me certayn questiōs of maters nothing be lōgīg to hym / I were not by myn othe boūden to make hym answere / for as mych as no such thyng was ī myn oth intended. And therfore if a prest y^t had herd a m̄nys confessyō were called be∣fore a iudge & sworne for a wytnes / he myght boldly swere he knew nothynge of y^e mater. Not for y^e comē glose y^t y^e cō¦fessyō was not made to hym as to him self but as to godd{is} mynyster / but for y^t y^e law dyschargyth hym of shewīg eny such thīg / no lesse thā yf hys othe were geuē hym in thys maner / what knowe ye of this mater out of cōfessiō. For els yf there were a tyraūt y^t wolde cōpelle hym by expresse wordys to swere what he knew by y^• m••nys cōfessyō / y^• cōfessor had in my minde no remedy but to tell hym playnly / syr I wyll not swere for you nor in such mater make you eny ā¦swere to dye therfore / not for eny thīg y^t I know in y^e mā for this mater thogh I tolde you all hys hole cōfessyō a non / but for the euyll y^t shulde grow by such a precedēt. For yf I shulde now excuse an innocente swerynge truely that I harde no suche thynge in hys confes∣syon / I shulde in some other cause ey∣ther be forsworne / or by my refusinge to swere I shulde make the man the more suspecte / ī that I refuse to swere as myche for hym as I dyde for a no••ther. And therefore wyll I not make eny answere in thys for y^e perell y^t may fall in other. And wyth thys answer•• or such other must he playnly refuse to swere what payn so euer he sholde en∣dure therfore. And in lyke wyse yf eny iudge wolde gyue an othe to eny persō to tell hym y^e truth of eny cryme / which were so secrete as the iudge had neuer hard eny thīg therof / but wold for hys onely pleasure know by the mānys oth whither ther were {per}aduēture eny such thing or not / y^e {per}tie may deny to swere or to make hym answere therin. But ō y^e tother syde yf he be denoūced or de¦tected vnto hym / eyther by commune fame or other īformacyō / w^t such cōier¦tures & lykelyhed{is} as the law geueth y^e iudge authorite to gyue y^e {per}tie an othe for y^e ferther serch of y^e mater / ther is he playnly hoūdē vppō payne of eternall dānacyō w^t out coueryng or cautell to shew & disclose y^e playne trouth / & to ha¦ue more respect to hys soule thā to hys shame. For as for those text{is} whych ye alledged / be far from thys poynt. For they nōe other mean / but y^• a mā shold in hys lyuyng auoyd ••ot onely synne / but also all occacyōs wherby mē might haue resonable cause falsly to dy••fame him. And it was neuer mēt of y^e shame

y^t a man taketh of hys owne cōfessyon for hys synne cōmytted in dede. For by y^t he lesyth not hys good name / but get¦teth hys good name amōg good folk. & as for of euyl mēn{is} word{is} ther is no re¦kenīg. But surely as I say yf a mā had bē as yll as a deuyll / & after repētīg his syn wold for {per}te of hys penaunce wyl∣lyngly offer hym self to y^e sufferaūce of open shame / ther were no good cristen mā y^t wold after y^t lyke y^e man y^t wors / but a grete deale y^e better. And yf all su¦che opē cōfessyō were synne / there was mych syn vsed amōg good folke many day in Cryst{is} chirch / whā yt was mich better thā yt is now. Lo Achā y^t had cō¦mytted sacrylege wherof ys wryten in Iosue / was exorted by Iosue to cōfesse hys faute opēly / & gyue glory to god y^t had detected him by lottis. And so dyd he / and mekely suffered for hys syn as well the shame & wōder of the worlde / as the payn ād bytternes of deth. And therfore I no more dout of that the••e / but that he is a glorio{us} saint in heuen / thā I dout of y^t these y^e cryst promysed Paradyse hangynge on y^e crosse. And ••urely yf mēnys old fautys were styll theyr īfamy after theyr amēdemēt / thā was saynt Peter lytell beholdē to saīt Mathew & other of hys felows y^t haue slaūdred hym in theyr gospels / tellyng how shāfully after all hys crak{is} he for∣soke his mayster & forsware hī both. yf a good man ware naght / y^e bet•• he was y^e more synne it is & y^e more shame also. And ys yt not thā ī resō ō y^e tother syde yf a naughty mā wax good / y^e worse he was y^e better is for hī & y^e more worship also? Our lord sayth hī self y^t for one sī∣ner comīg again to grace / ther is more ioy ī heue than vppō almost an hūdred good folk y^t neuer sinned. And rekē we then y^t man shamed by y^e knolege of his ••yn here amōg synfull mē / whose hūble cōfessiō & me••e amēdemēt wīneth him so mych worship in heuē? Trust me tru¦ly whā a mā hath done euyll if he be du¦ly sworē / it is a worshipfull shāe & a ioy¦full sorow to cōfesse y^e treuth and good folke though they abhore y^e sī / yet loue thei & cōmed y^e mā / as one y^t was noght & ys good. And y^e shame y^t he cōceyueth ī hys harte afore y^e worlde / geteth hym grete honour afore god. & y^e shorte glo∣wīg here in his chekis spedely burneth vp & wasteth / y^t neuer wastyng fyre of hell / standyng hym ferther in stede of grete {per}te of his purgatory. And therfo¦re to y^e poynt y^t we speke of w^tout longe {pro}cesse I tell you playnly my mynde / y^t no man can be excused from the {per}ell of ēdlesse dānaciō / y^t wold vpō boldnes of eny doctors opynyō / hyde or couer hys faute by eny cautell / after a lawfull oth gyuē him to tell y^e playn trothe therin. And who so wyll say y^e cōtrary he must nedys hold playn agaynst y^e law / & say y^t no iuge may lawfully gyue an othe to the {per}ty. wherof shuld the othe serue yf y^e party myght lefully forswere hym self? And also yf y^e iudge may not law∣fully giue hym y^• othe / thā may he refu¦se to swere / & may not first swere & thā say false. whych euery man must vppō dāpnacyō eschew though he folily take an othe / where he lawfully myght re∣fuse yt. ¶Forsothe quod he me thynk∣eth ye take the sure way. ¶well q I yf this be so in one y^t is sworē where y^e ma¦ter as he thinkyth cā not be well {pro}ued / how farre wronge went the man that we speke of / to forswere hym selfe in a mater of prechyng / y^t he wyll well was so opē y^t it wold be playnly {pro}ued what synne was therin / & what synne & foly thereto was there to stycke styll in hys {per}iury / whā he saw y^e mater a••lredy pro¦ued so clerely & by so many / so good / so honest / & so indefferent / y^t he coulde no¦thing now wyn by y^e dē••••e•••• but euyll opyniō / & almost a dispayre of his amē¦demēt

in all y^t euer hatd hī? ¶In good fayth q he all this is very truthe & ther for we shall let him a lone tyll god send hym better mynde.