A dyaloge of syr Thomas More knyghte: one of the counsayll of oure souerayne lorde the kyng [and] chauncellour of hys duchy of Lancaster. Wherin be treated dyuers maters, as of the veneration [and] worshyp of ymages [and] relyques, prayng to sayntys, [and] goyng o[n] pylgrymage. Wyth many othere thyngys touching the pestylent sect of Luther and Tyndale, by the tone bygone in Sarony, and by tother laboryed to be brought in to Englond

¶The .xi. chapyter.

¶The author answereth all the ob∣i••••cyons proponed by the messenger in the tenthe chapyter. And some of th••y•• rowched by y^• messenger more at large in other partes before.

YOur hole tale in e••••erte guod I rēteynyth thre thyngys. One that the people worshyp the sayntys and theyr ymagys also wyth ly•••• ho•••••••• as they d•• god hym self. •• n•••••••• that they take the ymag{is} for the r••••ngys selfe / whych poyntys do ••ownes to ydolatry. The thyrde is the supertycyons fasshyon of worshyppe wyth desyre of vnlefull thyngys. And ••••yth th•• worshyp that the people do to the saynt•• and ••••y••••gys be f••rthe / y^• conclude y^e thyng dyspleasaunt to god and to all halowes / and that yt may the••••y w••ll appere th••t the myracles also be 〈◊〉〈◊〉 y^• wor•••• (of god but y^• delu∣s•••••• of y^e deuyl. the fy•••• 〈…〉〈…〉 whyth ye haue ••ow twyse w•••••••• ys at o∣••ys sone & shortly answer•••••• for yt ys not 〈◊〉〈◊〉. For though 〈◊〉〈◊〉 he•••• 〈…〉〈…〉 〈…〉〈…〉 yet

yt ys 〈◊〉〈◊〉 trew that therfore they wor∣shyp them in euery poīt lyke vnto god. ¶What poynte lacke they qu••d he. •• M••••y the chy••f of all quod I That ys y^• they worshyp god wyth y^• mynde that he ys god / whych mynd in wor∣shyp ys the only thyng that m••••••th yt latri•• and no certeyne gesture 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ••••••dyly obseruaūce. Not & we wold ••ol¦low vpon the grounde vnto Cry••••/ha∣uyng ther••yth a mynd that he were the beste man y^• we coulde de••••y••e and thynkyng hym not god. For yf y^• lov••ly maner of bodyly observaunce were y^e thyng that wold make latri••/thēwer we moch ī p••••ell of ydolatrye in our curtesye vsyd to pryncys ••••el••••{is} & p••¦pys to whō we vneleas low as to god almyghty / & 〈…〉〈…〉 and somme 〈…〉〈…〉 to touche them / & in the p•••••••• hys fote. 〈…〉〈…〉 prestys in euery quere be as well ••••••∣fyd as y^e 〈…〉〈…〉 that yf latria y^t ys specyal he nowe doe to god stode in such thīgys / th••̄ were we grete ydola∣tr••s / not lowe w••rshypdome to ••••y••••{is} 〈…〉〈…〉 nor ••••••man neyther / but y^e they know ••uy•• mē from dede stones / & tree from ••essh & bone. And when they ••f••r•••• as ye spake of our lady at our pylgryma∣ges before our lady at a nother / or one ••oode before a nother / or make theyr i••••••c••cyons & vowes some to y^• t•••••• and s•••••• to the tother / I we••e yt esh•• to {per}ceyue that they meane none other but that our lord and our lady / or our lord for our lady sh•• with mo myracles at the one then at the other. And that they intend in theyr pylgrymage to vp syt s•••••• of theym one place and som a∣nother•• or partely somtyme as y^• place lyeth for theim as theyr de•••••••• ledeth 〈◊〉〈◊〉 and y•••• not for the place / but for y^• ye ly••eth one lord by ••••nyfest, m•• 〈…〉〈…〉

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lyue in antyete and trouble of mynde for ••ny fer•• of 〈◊〉〈◊〉/consyderyng that our father in heu••n {pro}uydeth meat for the very byrdys of the ayer by whome he settyth nothyng so mych a•• he doth by vs / yet wylled not he the contrary / but we shold wyth our bodyes labour therfore / hauyng o••r hert{is} all y^e whyle in heuyn. And wylled also y^t we sholde as••e yt of hym / wythout whose helpe our labour wyl not serue. And th••rfore is our dayly foode one of y^e petycy••••s of the Pater noster / the prayour that hym self taught hys dyscyples. And y^e horse he sette not so lytle by / but that rather thē yt shold peryssh / he rekenyd yt no breche of y^e ••••both day to pull hym out of a pyt. And therfore in d••d•• me semeth the de••••cyon to r••nne som∣what to farre / yf y^e smytth•••• wyll n••t for eny necessyte set one a sho•• vppon saynt Loyes day / & yet lefull ynough to pray for the helpe of a poore mānys horse. But as for your teth•• I w••ne yf they akyd well / ye wolde yo•••••• selfe thynke yt a thyng worthy and not to symple to aske helpe of saynt Appolyn and of god to. ¶〈◊〉〈◊〉 mary quod he / and of the deuyll to rather th••n fayle / as y^• Lumbard dyde for the gowte. That when he had long called vppon god & our lady and all the holy company of heuyn and yet felte hym self 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the better / he began at laste to call as ••a•••••• for helpe vnto the deuyll. And when hys wyfe & hys frendes sore ab••sshed and as••onyed rebuked hym for calling on the deuyll whych he wyst w••ll was naught / and yf that he holp•• hym yt shold be for no good / he cryed ow••e as lowd as he could agayn / 〈…〉〈…〉/all is good that helpeth. ¶And ••od I wen•• wolde I qu••d he ••all 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the deuyll and all rather than ab•••••• in ••••••ne. ¶Nay quod I what 〈◊〉〈◊〉 e••er yt say I can not thīke y•• wold by•••••••• in the d••uyll as that Lu••b••rd dyde. Ye wolde rather fare ly••e a no••h••••/that wh••n the f••yer apposyd hym in confes••••on whether he 〈◊〉〈◊〉 any thī¦ge wyth wytchecrafte 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ••ecro••an∣cye / or had any byl••fe in the deuyll / he ans••ered hy••/Credere ••n le dyabl•• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ••yr no / Io gra••id ••atyge a creder•• ī d•••• Byleue in the deuy•• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 he / ••ay nay sy•• I haue wor•••• yn••ugh to by∣leue in god I. And so wolde I wene y^t ye were far from all by leuyng in th•• de••yll / ye haue worke ynough to by••leue in god. Ye haue so mych worke to byleue in hymselfe / that y•• be loth me thy••k•• to mydle mych w^t hys saynt{is}. ¶••hen he had laug••ed a whyle at 〈◊〉〈◊〉 m••ry ••al••s / In good fayth quod I a•• I was about to tell you / som what in dede yt is that ye say. For ••uyll yt is / and euyll yt is sufferyd y^e supers••ycyo••s maner of worshyp. And as ••or that ye tolde of saynt Martyn yf yt be true / it hath 〈◊〉〈◊〉 excuse / but that yt nothyng towcheth our mater. For yt is not 〈◊〉〈◊〉 worshyppynge but dyspytynge and dysw••rshyppynge of sayntys. Tow∣chynge the offrynge of brede and al•• to saynt ••ermyn / I se nothyng mych•• myste therin / where y•• ••••••e s••me yt v••ed I ••ā not tell. But I h•••••• my s••lf•• se•••••• often tymys / and yet am I not r••m••b••ed y^t euer I saw pr••••te or che•••••• fare y^e better therfore / or ••nys dryn•••• therof / but yt is geuen to chyldren or poore ••olke to pray for 〈…〉〈…〉 chylde••••. And I wold wene yt 〈…〉〈…〉 in suche fasshyone / to 〈◊〉〈◊〉 vp ••n 〈◊〉〈◊〉 are 〈…〉〈…〉 people. But ••••w as for our 〈…〉〈…〉

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no wise mā wyth y^e Cryst h••d not comē ••ere. Nor yt h••d be no ryght y^• 〈…〉〈…〉 haue left y^e occasiō of meryt & 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ••e y^e good folke wold w^t his h••lp•• deser¦••e by hys comyng / for y^e 〈◊〉〈◊〉 y^• wre∣ches wold tak•• therof by th••y•• owne sh••uthe & malyce. Nor ī 〈…〉〈…〉 were yt none y^t al worshyp o•• s••ynt{is} & reuerēce of holy relyques & 〈…〉〈…〉 saynt{is} ymag{is} by whych good 〈◊〉〈◊〉 folke do mych meryte / we sh••lde ab••∣lysh & put away bycause som 〈…〉〈…〉 a∣buse it. Now touchīg y^e euyl p••tyciōs / though they y^t aske thē were as I tru•••• they be not a grete people / they be not yet so many y^t aske euyl petycyō•• of saī¦tys / as there be y^t aske y^e same of god hī self. For what so euer they wyl aske of any good saīt / they wyl aske of god al∣so. And comēly ī y^t wyld yrish & s••̄ ī w••¦lys to as mē say when they go forth in robbyng / they blysse thē & pray 〈◊〉〈◊〉 sēd them good spede y^t they may 〈◊〉〈◊〉 w^t a good purse & do harm & take nōe. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 we therfore fynd a faulte w^t euery mā•• nys prayer bycause th••uys pr•••• for spe¦de in robbery? Thys hath as I say no reasō all though they were a gr••••e peo∣ple y^t abusyd a good thyng. And where as y^e worst y^t ye assygne in 〈◊〉〈◊〉 mater is y^t as ye say y^e people d•• ydolatrye / in y^t y•• say they take y^e ymag{is} for y^e saīt self or y^e rood for Cryst hym self / whych as I sayd I thynke none doth (for some ••ood hath no crucyfyr therō / & they by∣leue not y^t the crosse whych they sew••s euer at Iherusale••/nor y^t yt was y^e holy crosse yt self / & mo••h less•• thīke they thē y^t y^e ymage y^t hāgeth theron ys y^e body of Cryst hymself) and all though som were so made so to thynk / yet 〈◊〉〈◊〉 yt not as ye call yt y^e people. For a ••ew•• dotyng dam••s make not y^e peple. And ouer thys yf it were as ye wold h••ue it see••e an hole people in dede / yet wer•• not a good thyng•• to be put away for the mysuse of badde f••lke.