A dialoge of comfort against tribulacion, made by Syr Thomas More Knyght, and set foorth by the name of an Hu[n]garie[n], not before this time imprinted

¶The .xix. Chapter. An other obieccion vvith the ansvvere therunto.

Vincent.

I Lyke well good vncle al your aunswers her∣in: but one doubte yet remayneth there in minde, which riseth vpon this aunswere that you make, and that doubt soyled, I wyll as for this time mine own good vncle, encombre you no far∣ther. For me thinke I doe you very much wrōg to geue you occasion to labor your selfe so muche in matter of ••ome study, with long talkyng at once. I will therfore at this time moue you but one thyng, and seke other

tyme at your more ease for the remnaunte. My doubt good vncle is this, I perceiue well by your answeres gathered and considered together, that you wil well a∣gree that a man may both haue worldly welth, and yet well goe to god. And that on the other syde, a man maye be miserable and lyue in tribulacion, and yet goe to the deuill. And as a man maye please God by paci∣ence in aduersitie, so maye he please God by thankes geuē in prosperitie. Now sith you graūt these thinges to be such that either of them both maye be matter of v••rtue, or els matter of synne, matter of damnacion or matter of saluaciō: they seme nother good nor badde of their owne nature, but thinges of themself equal and indifferent, turning to god, or y^e contrary after as they be takē. And than if this be thus, I can perceiue no cause why you should geue the preeminence vnto tri∣bulaciō, or wherfore you shoulde recken more cause of comfort therin then you should reckē to stand in pros∣peritie, but rather a great deale lesse, by in maner halfe, syth in prosperitie the mā is well at ease & may also by geuing thanke to god, geat good vnto hys soule, wher∣as in tribulacion, though he may merite by pacience as in aboūdaūce of worldly welth, thother may by thāke. Yet lacketh he much comfort y^t the welthy mā hath, in that he sore is greued with heauines and payn: besides this also, that a welthy man well at ease maye praye to god quietly & merely with alacritie and great quiet∣nes of mynde, whereas he that lyeth groning in hys griefe can not endure to praie nor thinke almost vpon nothyng, but vpon his payne.

☞Antony.

To beginne Cosin where you leaue, the prayers of hym that is in welth and hym y^t is in woe, if the mē be both noughte, their prayers be both like. For neither hath the one lust

to praye, nor thother neither. And as the one is let with hys payne, so is the other with hys pleasure, sauyng that the payne s••yreth hym some tyme to call vpon God in hys griefe, thoughe the man be ryghte badde, where the pleasure pulleth his mynde another waye, thoughe the man be me••ely good. And thys poynte I thinke there are very fewe that can (if they saye true) saye that they fynde it otherwyse. For in tribulacion, which commeth you wote wel in many sundry kindes, any man that is not a dul beast or a desperate wretche, calleth vpon God, not houerly, but ryghte hartelye: and se••••eth his heart full whole vpon his request, so sore he longeth for ease and helpe of his heauines. But when men are welthy and well at their ease, while oure tounge pattereth vpon oure prayers a pace, good God howe many madde wayes our minde wandereth the while. Yet wote I well, that in some tribulacion suche sore sickenes there is, or other greuous bodely payne, that hard it were for a manne to saye a long payer of ma••tens, and yet some that lye a dying saye ful deuoutly the .vii. Psalmes and other praiers with the priest at their aneiling but those that for the griefe of theyr payne cannot endure to dooe it, or that be more tender and lacke that stronge heart and stomacke that some other haue, God requireth no such long praiers of them. But the listing vp their heart alone with∣oute any woorde at all, is more acceptable to hym of one in suche case, than long seruice so sayed as folke vse to saye it in health. The martirs in their agonye, made no long praiers aloude, but one ynche of suche a prayer so prayed in that payne, was worth a whole ••alne and more, euen of theyr owne prayers prayed at some other tyme•• Greate learned men saye that Christ,

albeit he was very God, and as god was in eternall equall blisse with his father, yet as man merited not for vs onely, but for him selfe to: for proofe wherof they laie in these wordes the auctorite of S Paule. Christus humiliauit semet ipsum factus obedience vsque ad mortem, mortem autem cru∣cis•• propter quod & deus exaltauit illum & donauit••lli nomen quod est super om∣ne nomen, vt in nomine Iesu omne genuflectatur celesi••m terrestrium & infer∣norum & omnis lingua confiteatur quia dominus Iesus Christus in glori•• est dei patris. Christe hath humbled hymselfe, and became obe∣dyente vnto the death, and that vnto the death of the crosse, for which thing god hath also exalted hym•• and geuen him a name whiche is aboue all names: that in the name of Iesus euery knee be bowed, both of the cel••stial creatures and the terrestrial, and the infernal to: and that euery tongue shall confesse that our Lord Iesus Christe is into the glory of God his father. Now if it so be as these great learned men vpon such auctorities of holy Scripture say, that our sauiour so merited as man, and as man deserued rewarde, not for vs onely, but for himselfe also: than were there in hys dedes as it semeth, sundrye degrees & differences of deseruing, and not hys maundy like merite as hys passion, nor his slepe like merite as his watche and his prayer, no nor hys prayers peraduenture all of lyke merite neither. But though there none was, nor none coulde be in hys most blessed parson but excellent, and incomparably passyng the praier of any pure creature: yet his owne not al alike, but some one farre aboue o∣ther some. And thā if it thus be, of all his holy praiers, the chiefe semeth me those that he made in his greate agonye and paine of his bitter passion. The fyrst, whē he fel thrise prostrate in his agony, whan the heauines of his hearte with feare of death at hande, so payneful and so cruell as he well behelde it, made such a feruent

commocion in his blessed body, that the bloudy sweat of his holy flesh dropped downe on the grounde. The other wer the painfull prayers that he made vpon the crosse, where for al the tormente that he hanged in, of beating, naylyng, and stretching oute all his lymmes, with the wresting of his sinewes, and breaking of hys tender vaynes, and y^e sharpe crowne of thorne so pri••∣king him into y^e head, y^t his blessed blud stremed down al his face. In al these hideous paynes, in al their cru∣ell despites, yet two verye deuout & seruent praiers he made. The one for theyr pardon y^t so dispiteously put hym to his paine, and the other about his own deliue∣raūce, cōmēding his own soule vnto his holy father in heauē. These praiers of his, amōg all y^t euer he made, made in his most pain, reckon I for y^e chief. And these praiers of our sauior at his bitter passion & of his ho∣ly martirs, in the feruour of their torment, shall serue vs to se y^t there is no prayer made at pleasure so strong & effectual, as in tribulacion: now come I to the tou∣ching of the reason that you make, where you tell me that I graunte you, that bothe in wealthe and in woe some men maye be nought and offende God, the one by impacience, the other by fleshly luste. And on the o∣ther syde, bothe in tribulacion and prosperitie too, some manne maye also doe verye well, and deserue thanke of god by thankes geuen to god, as well of hys gyfte of ryches, woorship and wealthe, as of nede and penu∣rye priesonmente, sickenes and payne, and that there∣fore you cannot see, for what cause I shoulde geue a∣nye preheminence in coumforte vnto tribulacion, but rather allowe prosperitie for the thyng more coumfor∣table, and that not a litle, but in maner by double, syth therein hath the soule coumforte and the bodye both:

the soule by thanke (for his gyft) geuen vnto god, And then the bodye by being well at ease, where the parson payned in tribulacion, taketh no coumforte but in hys soule alone. Fyrst as for youre double coumforte Cosyn, you maye cutte of the one. For a manne in prosperitie, though he bee bounden to thanke God of hys gyfte, wherein he feeleth ease, and maye bee glad also that he geueth thanke to GOD: yet for that he taketh hys ease here, hath he little cause of coum∣forte, excepte that the sensuall feeling of bodelye plea∣sure, you lust to call by the name of coumforte. Nor I saye not naye, but that some tyme menne vse so to take it, when they saye, this good drynke coumforteth well my heart.

But coumforte Cosyn, is properlye taken, by them that take it ryghte, rather for the consolacion of good hope that men take in theyr heart, of some good grow∣ing toward thē, then for a present pleasure, with which the body is delyted and tickeled for the whyle.

Now though a man without pacience can haue no reward for his pain, yet when his payn is paciently ta∣ken for gods sake, and his will cōformed to gods plea∣sure therin, god rewardeth the sufferer after the rate of his payn, & thys thing appeareth by manye a place in scripture, of whiche some haue I shewed you, and yet shall I shewe you moe. But neuer founde I anye place in scripture that I remembre, in whiche though thys welthy man thanked god for hys gyft, our lorde promised any reward in heauen, because the man toke hys ease and pleasure here. And therfore, sith I speake but of such coumforte as is very coumfort in dede, by which a man hath hope of Goddes fauour, and remis∣sion of his sinnes, with minishyng of hys paynes in

purgatory, or reward els in heauen. And such comfort cometh of tribulacion, and for tribulacion well taken, but not for pleasure though it be well taken: therefore of your coūfort that you double by prosperitie, you may as I told you cut very wel away the halfe. Now why I geue prerogatiue in coūfort vnto tribulacion farre aboue prosperitie, though a man may doe well in both: Of this thing wil I shew you causes two or thre. First as I before haue at lēgth shewed you out of all questi∣on, continual welth interrupted with no tribulaciō, is a verye discomfortable token of euerlasting damna∣ciō, whe••upon it foloweth that tribulaciō is one cause of coumfort vnto a mans heart, in that it dischargeth him of the discomfort that he might of reason take of ouerlong lasting welth. Another is, that the scripture much cōmendeth tribulacion as occasion of more pro∣fit then welth & prosperitie, not to them onely that are therin, but to thē too that resorte vnto them, & therfore sayeth Ecclesiastes: Melius est ire ad domum luctus, quam ad domum conuiuii•• En, illa enim finis cunctorum admonetur hominum, & viuens cogitat quid futurum sit. Better it is to goe to the house of weping & wayling for some mans deathe, than to y^• house of a feast. For in that house of heauinesse is a man put in remembraunce of the ende of euerye manne, and whyle he yet liueth, he thynketh what shall come af∣ter. And after yet he farther sayeth: Cor sapientum vbi tri∣sticia••est, et Cor stultorum vbi leticia. The hearte of wyse menne is there as heauynesse is. And the hearte of fooles, is there as is myrthe and gladnesse. And verelye, there as you shall heare worldelye myrth seeme to bee commended: in Scrypture it is ey∣ther commonlye spoken, as in the parsone of some worldly dysposed people, or understanden of reioysyng

spirituall or ment of some small moderate refreshing of the minde, against an heauy discomfortable dulnes. Nowe whereas prosperitie was to the chyldren of Is∣raell promised in the olde law: as a special gyft of god, that was for theyr imperfeccion at that tyme to draw them to god, with gaye thinges and pleasaunte, as mē to make chyldren learne, geue them cake bread & but∣ter. For as the scripture maketh mencion, that people wer much after the maner of chyldren in lacke of wit, & in waiwardnes. And therfore was their master Mo∣ses called Pedagogus, that is, a teacher of children, (or as they call such one in the grammer schooles) an vsher, or a maister of the petites. For as Sainct Paul sayth. Nihil ad perfectum duxit lex. The old lawe broughte nothyng to perfeccion. And god also threatneth folke with try∣bulacion in this worlde for synne, not for that worldly tribulacion is euyl, but for that we should be wel ware of the sickenesse of synne, for feare of that thynge to folowe, whiche though it be in dede a very good whole∣some thyng yf we wyll take it, is yet beecause it is paynefull, the thyng that we be lothe to haue.

But this I saye yet again and agayn, that as for farre the better thyng in this worlde toward the geattyng of the verye good that God geueth in the worlde to come: the Scrypture vndoubtedlye so commendeth trybulacyon, that in respecte and comparyson there∣of, it discommendeth thys worldlye wretched welthe and discomfortable coumforte vtterlye. For to what other thyng soundeth the woordes of Ecclesiastes that I rehearsed you nowe? that it is better to be in the house of heauynesse, than to be at a feaste: whereto soundeth this comparyson of his, that the wyse mannes hearte draweth thyther as folke are in

sadnes: and the hert of a foole, is there as he may find myrth? Wherto draweth this threat of the wyse man, that he that delyteth in wealth shall fall into woe? Risus (sayeth he) dolore miscebitur, & extrema gaud••i luctus occ••p••t Laugh∣ter shalbe mingled with sorowe, and thend of mirth is takē vp with heauines. And our sauior sayth hymself. Ve vobis qui ridetis, quia lugebitis et flebitls. Woe be to you y^t laugh, for you shal wepe and waile. But he saith on the other syde: Beati qui lugent, quoniam illi consolabuntur. Blessed are thei y^t wepe & wayle, for they shalbe comforted. And he sayth vnto his disciples: Mundus gaudebit; vos autem dolebitis. Sed tristiti∣a vestra vertetur in gaudium. The world shal ioye, & you shalbe sory: but your sorow shalbe turned into ioye. And so is i•• you wote well now. And the myrth of many that thē were in ioy, is now turned al to sorowe. And thus you see by the scripture playn, that in matter of very com∣fort, tribulacion is as farre aboue prosperitie, as y^e day is aboue the night. An other preeminēce of tribulaciō ouer welth in occasiō of merite & reward, shal wel ap∣peare vpon certayne consideracions well marked in them both.

Tribulacion meriteth in pacience, and in thobedi∣ente conforming of mans wil vnto god, & in thankes geuen to god for his visitaciō: if you reckon me nowe against ••hese, many other good dedes that a wealthye man may dooe: as by riches geue almose, by autoritie, labour in doing many men iustice, or if you finde far∣ther any such other thing lyke.

Fyrst I saye that the pacient parson in tribulacion, hath in al these vertues of the wealthy man, an occasi∣on of merite to, whiche the wealthye man hath not, a∣gaynwarde, in the forerehearsed vertues of his. For it is easye for the parson that is in tribulacion, to bee

well wyllyng to dooe the selfe same if he coulde, and than shall hys good wyll, where the power lacketh, goe verye neare to the merite of the dede. But nowe is not the wealthy in a lyke cace with the wyll of paci∣ence and conformitie and thankes geuen to GOD for tribulacion, syth it is not so readye for the weal∣thy man to be content to be in the tribulacion, that is occasion of the pacientes deserte, as for the troubled persone to be contente to be in prosperitie, to dooe the good dedes that the wealthy man doth. Besydes this, all that the wealthy man dooeth, though he coulde not dooe them withoute those thynges that are accoump∣ted for wealthe, and called by that name, as not dooe greate almose wythoute greate richesse, nor doe these manye menne ryght by hys labour, without the au∣toritie: yet maye he dooe these thynges being not in wealthe in deede, as where he taketh his wealthe for no wealth, nor his riches for no riches, nor in hearte setteth by neither nother, but secretly liueth in a con∣trite heart and a life penitenciall, as many tymes did the Prophete Dauid beeyng a greate Kynge, so that worldely wealth was no wealth to hym, and therefore is not of necessitie worldlye wealth called the cause of those good dedes, syth he may doe them, and doth them best in dede, to whom the thing that worldly folke call wealthe, is yet for hys godlye sette mynde, drawne from the delyte thereof, no pleasure in maner nor no wealthe at all. Finallye•• whansoeuer the wealthye man doeth those good verteous dedes, if we considre the nature of them ryght, we shal perceiue that in do∣yng of them, he doeth euer for the rate and porcion of those dedes minish the matter of hys worldly welth,

as in geuing great almose he departeth with so much of hys worldelye goodes, whiche are in that parte, the matter of hys wealth.

In labouryng aboute the dooyng of manye good dedes, hys laboure minisheth hys quiete and hys rest. And for the rate of so muche, it minisheth hys wealth, if payne and wealthe be eche to other contrarye, as I wene you will agree they be.

Nowe whosoeuer than wyll well consider the thyng, he shall I doubte not perceyue and see ther∣in, that in these good dedes that the wealthy manne dooeth, though he dooe them by that, that hys wealth maketh hym hable, yet in dooyng of them, he depar∣teth (for the porcion) from the nature of wealthe, to∣warde the nature of some parte of tribulacyon: and therfore, euen in those good dedes themselfe that pro∣speritie dooeth: dooeth in goodnes the prerogatiue of tribulacion aboue wealth appeare.

Nowe if it happe that some manne cannot per∣ceyue thys poynte because the wealthy man for al his almose abydeth ryche styll, and for all hys good la∣boure abydeth styll in hys autoritie, lette hym consi∣dre that I speake but after the porcion. And beecause the porcion of all that he geueth of hys goodes, is ve∣rye litle in respecte of that he leaueth: therfore is the reason happely with some folke li••le perceiued.

But if it so were that he wente foorthe with ge∣uynge tyll he hadde geuen oute all and lefte hym∣selfe nothynge, than woulde a verye blynde manne see it. For as he were from rychesse come to pouertie, so were he frō welth, willingly fallen into tribulacion:

and betwene labour & rest, the reason goeth all alyke: whiche whoso canne consider, shall see that for the porcion in euery godd dede done by y^e welthy man, the matter is al one. Than sith we haue somewhat wayed y^e vertues of prosperitie, let vs cōsider on y^e other side the afore named thinges y^t are the matter of merite & reward in tribulacion, that is to wit, pacience confor∣mitie and thankes. Pacience the welthy mā hath not, in that he is welthy. For if he be pinched in any pointe wherin he taketh pacience, in y^t part he suffreth some tribulacion, and so not by his prosperitie, but by his tri∣bulacion hath the manne that merite. Lyke is it if we would say, that the welthye man hath a nother vertue in y^e stede of pacience, that is to wit, the kepyng of hym self from pride, and from such other sinnes as wealthe would bring him too. For the resisting such mocions, is as I before told you without ani doubt, a minishing of fleshly welth, and is a veri true kind, and one of the most profitable kyndes of tribulacion, so that al y^t good merite groweth to the welthy man, not by his wealth, but by the minishyng of his wealthe with wholesome tribulacion. The moste couloure of comparison is in the other twayne: that is to witte, in the conformitie of mans wyll vnto god, and in thankes geuen vnto god. For lyke as the good man in tribulacion sent hym by god, conformeth his wyll in that behalfe, and geueth god thanke therfore, so doth y^e welthy man in his welth whiche god geueth hym, conforme his wyll to goddes wyll in that poynte: sith he is well contente to take it of his gyfte, and geueth god agayne also right hear∣tye thanke therefore. And thus as I sayde, in these two thynges maye you catche mo••••e coloure to compare the welthye mans merite with the meryte of

tribulacion. But yet that they be not matches, you maye soone see by thys. For in trybulacion can there none conforme his will vnto goddes, and geue hym thanke therefore, but suche a mā as hath in that point a very special good mynd. But he that is very nought, or hath in his hearte but very litle good, maye well be content to take welth at goddes hande, and say, mary I thanke you sir for this with all my hearte, and wyll not fayle to loue you well while you lette me fare no worse. Confitebitur tibi, quum benefeceris ei. Nowe if the welthy man be verye good, yet in conformitie of his will and thankes geuen to god for his welth, his vertue is not like yet to hys that doeth thesame in tribulacion: for as the philosophers sayd in that thing very wel of olde, vertue standeth in thinges of hardenes and difficulty. And than as I tolde you, much lesse hardnes and lesse difficulty there is by a great deale to be contente and conforme our wyll to goddes wil, & to geue hym thanke too for our ease, than for oure payne: for oure welth, thā for oure woe. And therefore is the conforming of oure wyll into goddes, and the thankes that we geue hym for our tribulacion, more worthy thanke agayne, and more rewarde meryteth in the very fast welth and fe∣licitie of heauē, than our cōformitie with our thankes geuen for and in, oure worldly welth here. And thys thing sawe the deuill whan he sayed to oure Lorde of Iob, that it was no marueyle though Iob had a reue∣rent feare vnto god, god had done so muche for hym, and kept him in prosperitie, but the deuill wiste well it was an hard thyng for Iob to be so louing•• and so to geue thankes to god in tribulaciō and aduersitie, and therfore was he glad to geat leaue of god to put hym in tribulaciō, & thereby trusted to cause hym murmure

and grudge agaynste God with impacyence. But the deuill had there a fall in hys owne turne. For the paci∣ence of Iob in the shorte tyme of hys aduersitie, gate hym muche more fau••ure and thanke of God, and more is renoumed in Scripture, & commended there for that, than for all the goodnes of hys long prospe∣rous lyfe. Our Sauiour sayeth himselfe also, that if we saye well by them, or yelde them thanke that doe vs good, we doe no greate thing therin, & therfore can we with reason looke for no greate thanke agayne•• and thus haue I shewed you lo, no litle preeminence that tribulacion hath in merite, and therefore no litle preeminence of comfort in hope of heauenly rewarde aboue the vertues (the merite and cause of good hope and comforte) that cometh of welth and prosperitie.