The co[n]futacyon of Tyndales answere made by syr Thomas More knyght lorde chau[n]cellour of Englonde

An answere vnto the fyrst chapyter of Tyndales boke, why he trāslateth this worde chyrche in to this worde congregacion.

IN the begynnynge of my dialoge I she∣wed that Tyndales translacyon of the new testamēt was well worthy to be bur¦ned [ B] /bycause it well shewed in yt selfe y^t he had of an euyll mynde translated yt in such manner of wyse, as yt myght serue hym for a pryncypall instrumēt, towarde the settynge forth of all such heresyes as he had lerned of Luther, and entended to sende ouer hyther and sprede a brode wythin this realme / the trouth of whych my sayeng Tyndale and his felowes haue in such open fas¦shyon testyfyed and declared them selfe, that I nede for my selfe, in that poynte to vse no farther defence.

For euery man well seeth that there was neuer englyshe boke of heresye sent hyther syn̄ys (as there hath ben many, some partycularly agaynst the blessed sacrament of the au∣ter, as was the deuelyshe dialoge of the father and y^e sonne, [ C] and the blasphemouse boke of the beryeng of y^e masse, wher¦of our lorde be thanke the maker is gracyously tourned a∣gayne to god / and some were agaynste purgatory, & some agaynst almost all to gether that good is in Cristes chyrch / as are the bokes of Tyndale hym selfe, his wykked mam∣mona, his obedyence, and dyuerse other) in all these euer more one pece of theyr complaynte hathe ben the burnynge of Tyndales testament. For surely fyrst his false translacy∣on wyth theyr farther false cōstruccion / they thought sholde be the basse and the tenour wheruppon they wold synge the trouble wyth mych false descāt. And therfore very hote they take yt, that the goodnesse of the kynges grace wyth the lor¦des of his honorable coūsayle and the clergye of the realme, haue burned vp theyr false prykked bookes.

So was yt now that amonge other tokens of Tyndales [ A] euyll entent in his translacyon / I shewed as for ensamble y^t he chaunged comenly this worde chyrche in to this worde congregacyon, and this worde preste, into this worde se∣nyour, and cheryte in to loue, and grace in to fauour, confes¦syon in to knowledge, and penaunce in to repētaunce / with many wordes mo whych he chaungeth and vseth dayly, as in turnynge idoles in to ymages, and anoyntyng in to sme¦rynge, consecratynge in to charmyng, sacramentes in to ce¦remonyes, and the ceremonyes in to wychecrafte, and yet many mo.

Now shewed I there the causes why Tyndale dyd euyll in translatynge the scrypture in to our tonge wyth suche maner chaūges / and shewed also the thynges that myghte well make euery man perceyue that he ment therein the set¦tyng [ B] forth of som heresies, as appereth in my sayd dialoge, whych thynges yf I sholde here agayne reherse and repete, and in lyke wyse all other thynges agaynst which Tyndale doth obiecte: it were to longe a wurke, and as mych as to plante and set in to thys boke myne hole dyaloge agayne•• wherfore in all suche thynges I muste nedys remytte the reader vnto the dyaloge selfe.

Now cometh Tyndale and for answere therof, and to dysproue all that I laye agaynst hym in the translatynge of dyuers of these wordes: sheweth that the latyn texte and the greke maye be hys excuse and defence / for as much as y^e wordes in y^e laten texte & the greke, do as he sayth sygnyfye suche thynges as he hath expressed in hys englysshe trans∣lacyon, by those englysshe wordes that I fynd the faute in. [ C] But fyrst to what purpose serueth all hys defence? when he hath synnys hym selfe, proued by hys owne other bookes, that he is an heretyke / and that hys heresyes be suche, as it muste nedys make it clere, that though a nother man trans∣latynge the testament and beynge good & faythfull, myghte haue vsed happely those chaunges amonge, wythout euyll meanyng or any suspicyō therof: yet he syth those chaunge{is} so serued for hys heresyes, muste nedys be, not suspected, but manyfestley dedected and perceyued to haue vsed them beynge suche so many and so often, not of any chaunce or good intent, but of very playne purpose to gyue hys here∣syes in the earys of vnlerned men, some coloure of profe in the texte of the new testament. And so myghte I now passe

[ A] ouer .vi. or .vii. of y^e fyrst chapyters of his booke, as thynges that serue hym of ryght noughte.

But yet to the entent ye maye the better perceyue how wysely the man defendeth the mater, in suche wyse as he sheweth bothe lakke of lernyng, and more lakke of wytte, & moste lakke of grace: he doeth at the last confesse hym selfe that he made the chaunges for the settynge forth of hys he∣resyes / whyche was the poynt that I layed to hys charge, as the very thynge for whyche hys translacyon was very well worthy to be burned.

Now let vs fyrst consyder how he defendeth hys chaūge of thys worde chyrche in to thys worde congregacyon.

Fyrste to enduce the mater as though he went aboute to make euery thynge very open and playne: he telleth vs a [ B] longe tale of lytell weyghte, that thys worde chyrche hath dyuers sygnyfycacyons. And then he maketh as though he wolde telle how many / wherin when he hath all done, he le∣ueth out one of the very chyefe. For he telleth vs y^t a chyrch sygnifyeth a place or a howse where crysten men were wont to resorte in olde tyme to here the word of god / and he sayth not to praye but to lerne how and what to pray.

Then he sayth it hath a seconde sygnyfycacyon, but that is he sayth but mysse taken and abused by whyche it sygny∣fyeth the clergye / whom it pleaseth to hym in hys raylynge maner to call a multytude of shauen, shorne, and oyled / in mokkage and reprefe not so mych of the prestes, as of the holy order of presthode.

A thyrde sygnyfycacyon he sayth it hath / by whych it be∣tokeneth [ C] a cōgregacyon, a multytude, or a company gathe∣red to gyther in one, as a man may call the chyrche of Lon∣don / meanyng not the spyrytualtye onely but the hole body of the cytye of all kyndes, condycyons, and degrees. And in thys thyrde sygnyfycacyon he sayth that though it be lytell knowē amonge the comon people now a dayes: yet in this sygnyfycacyon is he sayth the chyrch of god or Cryst taken in the scrypture for the hole multytude that receyue y^e name of Cryste to byleue in hym. And for y^e profe of this he layeth many places of saynt Paule. Fynally yet he remēbreth hym selfe at laste, and addeth vnto this as it were a note & sayth.

Tyndale.

Not wythstandynge yet yt is some tyme taken generally, for all that em∣brace the name of Criste though theyr faythes be nought, or though they haue

no fayth at all. And sometymes yt is taken specyally for the electe onely / in [ A] whose hartes god hath wryten his law wyth his holy spyryte, and geuen them a felynge fayth of the mercy that is in Cryste Iesu our lorde.

More.

Lo now ye haue herd how many maner of wise Tyndale teacheth vs that this word chyrch is takē. In whych yet he hath lefte oute one sygnyfycacyone or twayen y^t this worde playnely sygnyfyeth. One is that this worde chyrch besyde all the sygnyfycacyons that Tyndale hath here shewed vs: doth syginfye that parte of the chyrch that in synodis & coū¦sayles do represent the whole chyrch. As when we saye that there is a law made by the chyrch that heretikes shall not be sufferd to preach / lyke wise as a parliamēt rep̄senteth y^e hole reame, & is by the comen speche so called to / as whē we say y^t the realme hath made a law that heretikes shalbe burned. [ B]

The chyrch also sygnifyeth sometyme a mych lesse nom¦ber that is to wyt / the onely rulers or hedes of the chyrche. as where we be commaunded to complayne to the chyrch / yt is not ment to all y^e whole towne nor to all the clergy ther¦of, of, but to rulers and gouernours. Syth Tyndale hath ta¦ken vppon hym to shew vs here his hygh doctryne, how ma¦ny manner of wyse this worde chyrch is taken: yt bylon∣ged rather vnto hym to haue taken in these sygnifycaciōs, then some of them that he hath taken as ye shall se anon

But fyrst I meruaile me mych that Tyndall hath eyther clene lefte out or ellys put in so darkely, y^t he wold not haue yt perceyued that sygnyfycacyon of this worde chyrch, that is one of the pryncypall sygnyfycacyons therof, and wher∣upon the greteste wayght of all our mater depēdeth. And y^t [ C] is that sygnifycacyon, by whych•• the chyrch sygnyfyeth not as Tyndale taketh yt in his thyrde sygnyfycacyon, for all a multitude gathered to gether in one, of all kyndes, condy∣cyons, and degrees of people / but of such onely people as be crysten people, and them not in one cytye onely, but that hole nomber of euery cytye, towne, and village thorow out all the hole world: this sygnifycacyon Tyndale leueth out clene, bycause yt toucheth moste the mater.

For as for that he saith in his fore remembred note: he se¦meth but to set a specifycacyon of his thyrde sygnifycacion, as though he wolde meane yt for y^e hole nōber of cyteseyns, or ellys for the onely nōber of the electys wyth in some one cytye, as he there putteth London for his example. And yf

[ A] he wold there name in his note the hole catholyque chyrch: I meruyle why he sayth that yt is called so sometyme / as though that sygnifycacyon were very rare and selde, where as of trouth there is of the chyrch no sygnifycacyon neyther more great nor more comen, then that by whych yt is ment and taken for the catholyque chyrch and vnyuersall.

How be yt of trouth Tyndale handeleth his thyrde sy∣gnyfycacyon very secundely, and fareth as one that wolde fayne walke in the darke. For the places of scrypture seme to speke of onely crysten people in this place and that. But his descrypcyon of y^e chyrch in that sygnifycacyon goeth far otherwyse. For when he sayth that yt sygnifyeth not onely the clergye but the hole congregacyon, multitude, or com∣pany gathered in to one / as a man wold saye the chyrch of [ B] London, meanynge not the spyrytualty onely but the hole body of the cytye, and all that parteyne vnto the towne ge∣nerally of all kyndes, condycyons, and degrees: of this sy∣gnyfycacyon surely few folke haue herd. For though he name a crysten cytye for a sample: yet may there be some cy∣tyes and haue bene, and yet be some such in some other pla¦ces / that of the cyteseyns and of the hole bodye of the cytye, and of such as pertayne vnto the towne generally / not one∣ly be there crysten prestes and crysten laye people / but open caste oute heretykes also, ye and peraduenture Iewes, Tur¦kes, and Saracens to, that be not crystened and all. And in some cytyes few crysten people and the remanaunt infyde∣les / and suche were the cytyes to whome the apostle wrote. And then I am sure when saynt Paule spake of y^e chyrch of [ C] the Corynthyes or of the Ephesyans: he ment not in thys Tyndales thyrde sygnyfycacyon after his descrypcyon, all the hole bodye of the cytye, and all such as perteyned therto generally / but the crysten people onely.

Nor now also yf Tyndale wolde speke of the chyrche of London, where all the hole towne is crysten people: there wolde no man vnderstande therby th•• hole body of the cyte, but the clergye onely / nor no man Tyndale excepte in spe∣kynge wolde so meane. But this darkenes vseth Tyndale / bycause he wolde haue it seme y^t thys worde chyrche, which in the englysshe tonge hath euer had a good sygnyfycacyon & an holy in mennys hertes: sholde seme to haue somtyme the contrary. Out of whyche darkenes I shall drawe Tyn∣dale anone I truste / and accordynge to my poetry wherin

he mokketh me, pull vp cerberouse in to the lyght. [ A]

But now let vs fyrste consyder a lytell hys fyrst sygnyfy¦cyon, where he sayth, yt sygnyfyeth a place wherunto crysten people were wonte in the olde tyme to resort at tymes conuenyent, for to here the worde of doctryne, the lawe of god, and the fayth of our sauyour Cryste, and how and what to pray, and whense to aske power and strength to lyue godly.

why sayth Tyndale here in the olde tyme / for all this we do in the new tyme to, how so euer Tyndale lyste to lye.

Then goeth he ferther and lyeth on lustely, sayenge that of Crystes promyses nor of hys mercye we knowe no thyng at all / as though no man had here herd euer any thyng spo∣ken, that mankynde is redemed by Crystes passyon, & that he hath ordayned his holy sacramentes, and promysed men grace that wyth fayth and deuocyon receyue them. Is not thys man shameles so boldely to bere vs all in hande, that [ B] we neuer here worde of suche thynges as euery boy better byleueth then he?

For euery chylde that is of competent age / hath herde y^t god gyueth by hys holy ordynaunce (whych euer includeth hys promyse) grace wyth all his .vii. sacramentes / where as Tyndale of seuen taketh it a way fro fyue, and from almost one and an halfe of the tother twayne to.

Euery boy byleueth, and byleueth trew / that god hath promysed rewarde to good workes. And Tyndale wyll not byleue y^• promyse at all / but denyeth it playnely, as playnly as god sayth it hym self in many places of the very gospell.

But then on the tother syde Tyndale telleth vs, that god hath promysed alwaye to euery man the blysse of heuen for onely fayth alone. And here euery boy byleueth and woteth [ C] well he lyeth.

Now towchynge the mercy of our lorde / who can speke of Crystes passyon and speke nothyng of hys mercy? This man is to madde to talke wyth. Goddys mercy is so greate that no man can speke inoughe thereof. But the worlde waxeth such now a dayes / y^• as it is nede to pray for mercy, so were it nede to preche of goddys iustyce, & put the people in mynde of hys wrathe and indygnacyon lykely to fall vp∣pon vs, yf we gyue eare to suche dedely do••••ryne as Tyn∣dale techeth / and I pray god of hys greate mercy to gyue that man a better mynde.

yet goeth he ferther and sayth, that of the lawe of god we thynke as dyd the Turkes and the olde Hethen people / that it is a thynge whyche

[ A] euery man may do of our owne power.

what careth Tyndale what he saye / that careth not to wryte thys, wherein euery mannes earys that wolde hym well, glowe for very shame that here hym. where herde he euer any man saye, that any man may fulfyll the law of god of hys owne power. Mary thys we saye and saye trowth, y^e man hath suche power gyuen of god that he maye worke wyth goddes grace in the kepynge of the law. But this can not Tyndale bere / for theyr heresye is, that man towarde y^e kepyng of goddys precepte, hath no fre wyll at all / and now dyssymylynge hys owne heresye he dedely byleyth vs.

Now of prayour he sayth, we thynhe that no man maye praye but at chyrche / and that it is nothynge ellys but to saye a pater noster to a post / and that the obseruaunces and ceremonyes of the chyrche are vayne thynges [ B] of our owne ymagynacyon, neyther nedefull to the tamynge of the f••esshe, nor profytable to our neyghbour, neyther honour vnto god.

Those lyes come in by lumpes lo. I dare saye he neuer herde in hys lyfe man nor woman saye, that no man maye praye but at chyrche.

As trew is it also that men saye theyr pater noster to the poste / by whych name it pleaseth hym of hys reuerent crystē mynde to call the ymages of holy fayntes and oure blyssed lady, and the fygure of Crystes crosse, the booke of hys byt∣ter passyon.

Though we reuerence these in honour of the thynges whyche they represent / and in the remembrauns of Cryste do crepe to the crosse and kysse it and say a pater noster at it: yet saye we not the pater noster to it but to god / and that [ C] woteth Tyndale full well, but that he lysteth to rayle.

As for that he sayeth of the seruyce, ceremonyes, and ob∣seruaūces of the chyrche, whych he calleth here vayne yma∣gynacyons, howlynge, buzsynge, and cryenge out lyke ha∣lowynges of the foxes or baytynge of berys, & thus he sayth it is now / but of olde tyme he sayth y^t the officers appoynted there vnto, preched the pure word of god onely, and prayed in a tonge that euery man vnderstode.

As for prechynge of the pure word of god: I muste wyt of Tyndale whyther he meane the worde wryten or vnwry¦ten or bothe. If he say they preched the worde of god bothe wryten and vnwryten and onely that: then I saye so do we now to. Peraduenture he wyll say that the precheours now lay thereto the ••ide holy doctours: I saye that therein they

lay but goddes worde / for they laye them for the better vn¦derstandynge [ A] of goddes worde wryten, and for the better knowlege of goddes worde vnwryten. For we be very sure that yt is his worde when we se that all the holy doctours that spent theyr lyfe in the studye of his worde, and in the kepynge of his worde, and the prechynge of his worde: do testyfye from age to age by theyr holy wrytynge, that those wordes vnwryten which y^e chyrch beleueth were and be his wordes, as well and as veryly as those that be wryten in any parte of scrypture.

Then yf Tyndale wyll say that our preacheours preche Aristotle, philosophers, and poetes: thereto I say that they sometyme speke of philosophers in thynges of nature or of morall vertues. And yf this new apostle now saynte Tyn∣dale take this thyng for so great an heyghnouse cryme: thē [ B] is he surely mych more apostolycall then was Crystes olde apostle Poule. For he letted not in his epystle to the Roma∣nes to alledge and alowe the philosophers cōnyng, though he dysproued and dyspraysed y^e foly of theyr fall & wreched∣nes of theyr lyuynge.* 1.1 And in his epistle to Titus he toke yt for no synne to alledge the poetes versys / but in y^e disprayse of them of Crete for vsyng of Tyndales fasshyō in lyenge, and also in geuynge the worlde warnyng to beware of such as Tyndale is / whose euyll wordes and sermons do cor∣rupte and marre mennys good maners as his doth, where he wolde make menne wene that good maners were no∣thynge worth. And thus yf Tyndale graūt the tone parte / that is to say that of olde tyme they preched both the worde of god wryten and vnwryten: then he wynneth nothynge / [ C] for euen so do they in the new tyme to.

Now yf he wyll not saye they preched both of olde tyme / but that of olde tyme they preched onely the tone, that is to wyt the worde of god wryten: then must we wytte of Tyn∣dale whych he calleth the olde tyme. For this I wote well & so dothe Tyndale to, that fyrste of all, Cryste our sauyour hym selfe preched more then his worde wryten, and promy¦sed also wythoute wrytynge, and was byleued then wyth∣out wrytynge, that he wolde sende the holy goost that shold teache his chyrch all trewth wythout wrytyng / & Cryst full trewly fulfylled his promyse without wryting / and yet will not Tyndale now byleue hym wythout wrytynge / and af∣ter Cristes deth dyd his apostles preache mych more of god¦des

[ A] worde thē was writē. And therfore yf Tyndale grownd hys argument vppon the olde tyme, and say that they pre∣ched onely goddes worde wryten: I haue dreuen hym on∣warde one steppe downe / for I haue shewed hym here the oldest tyme and the best tyme of Crystendome, in whyche he can neuer wreste out but that he shall confesse that all y^e cry∣sten prechours, that is to wyt all the euangelystes and all the apostles of Cryste, and Cryste hym selfe also / besyde the scrypture preched goddes word vnwryten as longe as euer they lyued. For I truste that Tyndale as madde as he is, is not yet so madde / as to thynke that after that some of the apostles had wrytē eyther gospels or pystles, that then they alleged theyr owne wrytynges for theyr authoryte or theyr owne felowes eyther / as though theyr owne wordes & theyr [ B] owne wrytynge were not all of one credence.

But now yf Tyndale be not content to stande to y^t olde tyme / and wyll saye that he spake of olde tyme but not of so ••lde: then ••yth he compareth the olde tyme wyth thys tyme that is now, we must aske hym whyche tyme is that whych he taketh for y^e olde tyme in respecte of this newe tyme now. we call an olde man ye wote well at fourscore yere, and at an hundred yere very olde. wyll Tyndale stande to y^• tyme? wyll he stande at two hūdred, iii. hundred, iiii, v, vi, vii, viii? Nay surely he wyll none of all those hūdredes. For he sayth in hys preface that all thys eyghte hundred yere and aboue / the prechours haue ben false, and haue falsyfyed the scryp∣ture. Now semeth me that eyghte hundred yere is in respect of now a metely old tyme. And syth he sayth y^t by all this old [ C] tyme they haue not preched goddys worde well: I wolde knowe whyche is that olde tyme in whyche they preched goddys worde well, and the worde onely wryten, wythout any prechynge of any worde of god vnwryten, and toke for vayne and fa••se all that euer were called goddys worde, but yf they foūde it wryten. Let Tyndale no•• tell vs that olde tyme. For this must he tell vs or els he tak••th a fowle fall.

Now wyll he make many shy••••es / and •••• the last he shall be fayne to fall bothe into hys owne poe••••y, and also in to hys grammer agayne / and come forth wyth hys .iii. degrees of compacyson, olde, elder, and eldest. And syth neyther the oldest 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of Cryst and hys apostels a••ay•• serue hym, by∣cause the 〈…〉〈…〉 besyde scryp••t••••e the ••••orde of god 〈◊〉〈◊〉 t••n / nor 〈…〉〈…〉 ty•••• of eygh•••• 〈◊〉〈◊〉 y••res nowe lāste

passed, bycause they preched as Tyndale sayth dyuerse sa∣cramentes, [ A] ceremonyes, and promyses as the wordes of god vnwryten in whych he sayth they preched false / but he wyll take an elder tyme then thys, and not so olde as that, that is to wyt the tyme next after the apostels dayes / and he wyll say that all the wordes of god were then all redy wrytē by the euāgelystes and the apostels / so that there was none of goddys wordes lefte vnwryten / and therfore after theyr dayes by a certeyne tyme the trewe prechers preched purely the bare worde of god wryten in holy scrypture: well nowe be Tindale and I comen at last to some poynt. For he sayth a thynge here, wyth whiche he answereth me well, and with good grammer sauynge for his poetry, for that marreth all hys mater. For I saye surely that he sayth not trouth / but that of goddes wordes they wrote not all / but dyuers thyn∣ges [ B] were by god to them and by them to other taughte by mouth, and by tradycyon from hande to hande delyuered, and from age to age hytherto contynued in Crystes chyrch. And that I saye trewth in thys poynt / I haue dyuers good and honest wytnesses to bryng forth when tyme requyreth / saynt Austayne, saynt Hyerom, saynt Cypryan, saynt Chry∣sostem, and a greate many mo / whyche haue also testefyed for my parte in thys mater more then a thousand yere a go. yet haue I a nother auncyent sad father also / one that they call Origene. And when I desyred hym to take the payne to come and bere wytnesse wyth me in thys mater, he semed at the fyrst very well content. But when I tolde hym that he sholde mete with Tindale: he blessed hym selfe & shranke bakke, and sayde he had leuer go some other waye many a [ C] myle then onys medle wyth hym. For I shall tell you syr¦quod he / before thys tyme a ryght honorable man very con¦nyng and yet more vertuouse, the good bysshoppe of Roche¦ster, in a great audyēce brought me in for a wytnes agaynst Luther and Tyndale euyn in thy•• same mater, aboute the tyme of the burnynge of Tyndalys euyll translated testa∣ment. But Tyndale as sone as he herde of my name / with∣out any respecte of honestye fell in a rage wyth me and all to rated me, and called me starke heretyke, and that the star¦keste that euer was. Thys tale Orygene tolde me & swore by saynt Symkyn that he was neuer so sayed vnto of suche a lewde felowe synnys he was fyrste borne of hys mother / and therfore he wolde neuer medle wyth Tyndale more.

[ A] Now in dede to say the treuth yt was not well done of Tyn¦dale to leue resonynge and fall a scoldyng, chydynge, and brawlynge, as yt were a bawdy begger of byllyter lane. Fy for shame he sholde haue fauored & forborne hym somwhat, and yt had bene but for his age. For Origene is now .xiii. hundred yere olde or there aboute / and this was not mych aboue .vii. yere synnes.

Now yf this made Tyndale bold to set Origene as short as his olde shone, bycause saynt Hierome founde some fau∣tes in his workes: he muste remember agayne that many a good man, and among those saynte Pamphilus the blessed martyr / founde in Origenes doctrine so mych er••dycyon, deuocyon, & vertue, bysyde that they veryly thought those errours none of his / nor neuer were there any such fa••tes [ B] founden in his wrytynge whyle hym self lyued, nor no man offended with hym, & many places in his bokes playne y^t se¦me to saye y^e cōtrary. And therfore many good men thought and yet thynge, all be yt saynt Hierome thought otherwyse (as he myght well inow whyle that poynte no thynge per¦teyneth to the fayth) that chose heresyes were put in to hys bokes after his deth by some that were heretyques in dede / and wolde for the great estymacyon that Origene•• was in thorough all the chyrch, anaunce theyr owne heresyes for∣warde vnder the name and standard of his famouse autho∣ryte.

But graunted nowe that those fa••tes were his whyche were imputed vnto hym, yet is this none of thē. But saynte 〈…〉〈…〉 so [ C] 〈…〉〈…〉 Tyndales scoldyng, accepted and taken 〈◊〉〈◊〉 all 〈…〉〈…〉

wyll I brynge in with hym some other that I haue named / [ A] and yet other mo bysyde, that shall as I sayd testyfye with me before this boke be done / y^t god hath taught his chyrche many thynges wherof in the scrypture his worde is yet vn∣wrytem.

But now wyll I for y^e meane while touchyng this poynt wheruppō y^e great wayghte of all the mater hangeth, go ne∣rer vnto Tyndale a nother waye.

It is ye wote well agreed bytwene vs / or yf he wold be so madde to say naye, ye wyll yet your selfe agre this in his stede: that ones of olde tyme Cryste hym selfe and his apost¦les dyd teache and preache m••ny wordes of god vnwryten.

Now thus I say, syth many thynges were tought fyrst vnwryten yf any of them be yet lefte vnwryten / then saye I that Tyndale is at the leste wy••e temerariouse & ouer bolde, [ B] so certaynely to affyrme that any sacrament that the chyrch vseth and so longe hath vsed, or ceremony eyther, is idola∣trye / for as mych as if we lakked sure profe vppon our syde (whyche in dede we lakke not by reason of goddes spyryte by Crystes owne promyse euer abydynge wyth his chyrch, and teachyng it all trewth / but yf we lakke I say that profe for our parte) yet were he to presumptuousely bowe so pre∣cysely to affyrme the contrary / syth he can not say naye but that they myght be some of those y^t were sometyme to••ghte vnwryten, and yet remayne obserued vnwryten / as y^e other that now be wryten were tought & kept wythout wrytynge before.

To this wyll Tyndall answere, that sy•••••••• that tyme all goddes wordes, promyses, & sacramentes that he wold [ C] haue kepte and byleued in crys••••ndome: he hath caused to be wryten, by his euangelistes and apostles / and lefte n••ne vnwryten, to 〈…〉〈…〉 that his chyrch shall not stande in a∣ny d••wte nor fall into any errour of any necessary poynt for lakke of wrytynge / but mo••e ••know•• by that he hath caused all to be wryten, that all be false and fayned, and ••••ennys madde in••encyons that they byleue and obserue vnwrytē. For w••y sholde he ••••••se some to be wryten and suffer some lefte vnwryten / to make men sure of some, and to leue some in 〈◊〉〈◊〉

〈…〉〈…〉

[ A] cause / for he seeth why well inough, and therfore I wyll gyue no rekenynge why god hath caused some to be wryten and some to be lefte vnwryten. But thys wyll I be bolde to saye / that he was not of any necessyte compelled to wryte any one sacramēt or ceremony or weyghty poynt of byleue, for any fere leste it sholde fall awaye / and that he coude not wyth hys owne spyryte kepe it in mennys hertes and vsage wythout wrytynge, as well as he kept in the good genera∣cyons the knowledge of his promyses and his lawes longe and many ages before the lawe was wryten / and yet wrote them not all therin neyther, but the people had a fayth of Cryste amonge them more large then was wryten in theyr lawe / whyche went from hande to hande I thynke from Adams dayes, to whom it is lykely that god made after his [ B] fall some larger promyse and reuelacyon of hys redempcyō agayne, than we fynde made vnto hym wryten in any place of scrypture. But we shall not nede mych profe for thys ma¦ter / for that god was able to kepe all hys sacramentes and artycles of the fayth wythout wrytynge, Tyndale I wene wyll not deny me.

Now to say that yf he sholde haue lefte some vnwryten, it wolde haue made dowtes and debates and be occasyons of errours and heresyes / and the writyng doth put all thyn∣ges oute of dowte, and therfore god hath lefte none vnwry∣ten: we se that thys maketh neyther more sure nor lesse. For as well dyd men byleue before the wrytyng those thyn∣ges that are now wryten, as euer they dyd synnys / and we beleue now the promyses as well that are vnwryten as any [ C] that are wryten. And the wrytynge taketh not away all the dowtes / but as many ryse thereuppon, and many mo then vppon those thynges that we byleue vnwryten.

For fyrste the credence to be gyuen to the hole boke in whyche they be wryten / hangeth all vppon the same fayth vppon whyche dependen the thynges that are vnwryten. For as I byleue the tone so byleue I the tother. And as one maye by hys owne frowardnes lakke the grace to byleue y^e thynges vnwryten: so maye a nother by his owne malyce lakke the grace to byleue any parte of the hole boke of holy scrypture that is wrytē / and take it all for fantasyes. And in good sayth I am aferd y^• so do they whych saye they byleue nothynge els but it. For as for parte of y^e boke they brynge in que••••y••̄ / 〈◊〉〈◊〉 boke of the Machabees, by cause it ma∣keth

questyon / as agaynst theyr purpose concernyng purga¦tory. [ A] And parte they let not mych to deny / as Luther doeth the epystle of saynte Iamys, bycause it speketh playnely a∣gaynst hys idle workelesse fayth.

Now in that partes whyche they graunte for scrypture: yet taketh it not awaye all the dowtes. But vnto such folke as Tyndale is and Luther, that be so contencyouse: it my∣nystreth rather mych mater of dowte and of debate, & that mych more then do the thynges that are obserued wythout wrytynge.

For fyrst they refuse to obserue them, bycause they saye they fynde them not there wryten / & so ryseth that questyon fyrst vppon the wrytynge.

Then yf it be founden there: then dyspute they whyther it be fully founden there / as whyther we fynde there bothe y^e [ B] token and the thynge betokened. For the sacrament take they but for a bare sygne / and the thynge that is sygnyfyed they call no thynge but Crystes onely promyse. And here make they vppon the wrytynge many greate batayles, to bete downe allmoste all the sacramentes, sauyng scant one and an halfe. Then vppon the letter rayse they many greate errours, and saye the scripture is playne vppon theyr syde. And thys say not onely Luther, Tyndale, and Swynglius with frere Huskyn and hys felowes, agaynst the interpreta¦cyon of all holy doctours and sayntes, and the comen fayth of all trewe crysten people .xv. hundred yere before them: but eche of them selfe also agaynst other amonge them selfe saye and swere that the scrypture is playne for theyr parte.

So that as for necessyte of wrytynge all or any parte cō¦cernynge [ C] the sacramentes, ceremonyes, or artycles of the fayth, god was not dreuen thereto / nor by the wrytynge be taken awaye the dowtes. But as I wote it well y^t god had good and greate causes why he caused some thynges to be wryten: so had he causes as good why he lefte some vnwry¦ten. But neyther can Tyndale tell why he sholde wryte all, nor I gyue the rekenynge why he lefte some vnwryten.

To thys wyll Tyndale happely say (for ellys can not I se what he can say) that god hath causyd all his wordes spo¦ken to his chyrche to be wryten in holy scrypture / and hath in the same scrypture gyuen vs playne warnynge that he so hath done / and thereby hath he delyuered vs from dyuerse dowtes though not from all. For all be it y^e dyuerse dowte••

[ A] yet ryse vppon the writtynge: we, by his expresse warnyng in wrytynge shewynge that all is wryten / be put oute of all dowte, that we shall byleue nothynge as his worde wherof there is no wrytynge.

Surely yf Tyndale tell me this tale as in dede he doth / for both Luther and he and frere Huskyn and Swynglius, and all the rable of that rascayle / neuer ceace to saye thys / and they fynde folys that byleue them better vppon theyre bare wordes, then they wolde more honeste mē vppon theyr obligacyōs / but now as I say yf Tyndale tell me this tale: I shall by his leue be bolde to denye yt hym / and pray hym onys to proue yt yf he can fynde how. For this I wote well, they haue amonge them made great boste a great whyle / & alwaye promysed that they wyll byeld vppe that towre / and [ B] make yt very strong and sure / and surely so haue they great nede to do, for therein lyeth all the store of all theyr gunne powder, brymstone, pytch, & wyld fyre, that they shote out at the blessed sacramentes of our sauyour Cryste. And as for hytherto, brought they neuer yet so mych good stuffe, as wolde make a tyle pynne to fence theyr fortresse wythall. And what so euer they bryng herafter: they shall make pore paper walles.

But to thentent that they shall not bygyle you: lette vs wyth one worde or twoo put them in remembraunce what thynges they be that they muste nedes proue, and that by playne scripture to / for other profe them selfe wyll none ad¦mytte.

Tyndale muste proue me fyrst therfore by playne & euy∣dent [ C] scrypture, that all the wordes necessarye to remayne & be knowen, whych our sauyour hym selfe and his apostles tought ones withoute wrytynge: all those he hath caused to be by them and his euangelistes wryten, preserued, and kepte, in playne and euident scripture. when Tyndale hath proued this, for whych I dare geue hym respyte tyll domes daye: then muste he yet by playne and euydent scrypture profe me farther lo / & for the profe therof though the poyn∣tes be but easy, let hym take yet his tyme fyftene dayes af∣ter, wythin whyche he muste I saye by playne and euydent scrip•••••••• p••ofe me farther yet of these two thynges one / that is to wy•• ••••ther that euery necessary worde whych god hath spoken by hymselfe and his holy spyryte vnto his chyrche, synnys the d••th of his .iiii. euangelystes and his .xii. apost∣les /

he hathe caused to be also secretly sette in and wryten [ A] to these bokes whych Tyndale agreeth for holy scrypture / or ellys muste he profe me by playne and euydent scripture, that not wythstandynge his promyse made vnto his chyrch in his apostles dayes, that he wolde wyth his holy spyryte speke to his chyrch hym self and dwell therwyth and teache yt all trewth from tyme to tyme all dayes euen to the day of dome: yet as sone as he saw his apostles dede, & no mā that herde hym left to bere vs wytnesse what he sayde / he bygan to go from his worde agayne, & sware that he wold eyther no lenger dwell here wyth his chyrch / or yf he cam, yt shold be but a geste wyse / and yet wold he play mūme to, and ney ther by hym selfe nor his holy spyryte vouchsaufe to speke any one worde vnto them, that were at the leste wyse aught worthy the wrytynge but some wanton tryfle. [ B]

Remember nowe good reader that these be the thynges whyche Tyndale hathe to proue. And when he proueth these few thynges / then beleue hym hardely and so wyll I do to. But surely who so byleue hym wyth any lesse / vnder standeth nothynge what the mater meaneth.

Now yet ones agayne lette vs consyder Tyndales olde tyme / in whych he sayth the trew pure preachyng was vsed that is now quyte gone. I wolde aske hym when ended that olde tyme of his / and when beganne his new. He saythe yt hath bene thus as yt is more then this .viii. hundred yeres / and me thynketh .viii. hundred is a very longe nowe. But yet consyder good reader yf the trew preachynge was lefte and gone .viii. yere a go and more: then can he not say nay but that the trew fayth went quyte away therwith / without [ C] whych can be no chyrch of Cryste neyther catholyque nor of electes. And thus doth Tyndale tell vs that this .viii. yere at the laste our lorde hath broke his promyse / by whyche he promysed to be with his chyrch all days to y^e worldes ende. This man maketh hygh boste of Crystes promyses / & wold with them destroye all vertue safe fayth. And now ye se that playnely he denyeth Crystes promyse to / and wyll I wene at laste denye euen Cryste and all. For as ye se at your eye, he draweth very faste towarde yt.

Now tyll Tyndale therfore haue proued vs these few poyntes y^t are for theyr falsehed impossyble to be proued: the chyrche shall not nede for his fonde raylynge any thyng to fere, to vse the deuoute sacramētes & ceremonyes taught

[ A] and delyuered thē by god and his holy spyryte. For s••yghte wherof the deuyll and his damned spyrytes crye vppon to haue them lefte of / and bere vs in hand that they be frute∣lesse. For Tyndale sayth that they neyther tame the flesshe, nor do good to thy neyghbour, nor be honour to god.

But now doth all good crystē people very well perceyue by Crystes owne promyse in the very wryten gospell / that the chyrche of Cryste ys taught by hys holy spyryte, y^t these sacramentes and ceremonyes do please god. And they per∣ceyue and se also that the holy sayntes whyche haue vsed them before our dayes / be now longe a go rewarded in he∣uyn wyth god. And they perceyue also that in y^e vse therof / theyr myndes rysen and be lyfte vppe a lofte in deuocyon to god / and b•• these thynges and such lyke they perceyue well [ B] that Tyndale doeth but bylye them. For syth goddys spy∣ryte hath ••aught them / they muste nedys be honour to god. And when men come togyther to honour god, eche of them is {pro}fyt••••le to other / for ellys were theyr assembly togyther in pr••your no dyfference from y^e prayour of one man alone. But when they come togyther to goddys seruyce / the hole company pr••••eth for the hole presence, and so is eueryche y^e better for ••thers praiour / 〈◊〉〈◊〉 all people the better bothe for the prayou•• and the sacrament, and euery deuowte obser∣••ou••s vsed in the chyrche at the dyuyne seruyce.

And it is thyrdely very profytable to the very tamynge ••f the flesshe ••lso. For what thynge is there that bet∣ter 〈…〉〈…〉 flesshe then the grace of god. Dyd not god 〈…〉〈…〉 ••a••le when he thryes prayed vnto hym to [ C] wythdraw•• ••he prykke of the flesshe,* 1.2 wyth whyche our lord suffered 〈◊〉〈◊〉 angel•• of Sathan to vexe hym, leste hys herte 〈…〉〈…〉 waxe prowde in beholdynge the 〈…〉〈…〉 of hys reuelacyons / whyche though 〈…〉〈…〉 for some other kynde of trybulacyon, 〈…〉〈…〉 the very flesshely mocy••n 〈…〉〈…〉 not then our lorde I say 〈…〉〈…〉 S••ffyseth vnto the my 〈…〉〈…〉 then sy••h 〈◊〉〈◊〉 can better ••ame the flesshe 〈…〉〈…〉 god / whiche not onely can tame it but also 〈…〉〈…〉 so resysted by the soule, that the 〈…〉〈…〉 to ••••ryte & 〈◊〉〈◊〉 why shall 〈…〉〈…〉 as the spyryte of good hath 〈…〉〈…〉 whyche obedyently done

wyth deuocyon and with desyre of grate, do stande in the [ A] stede of one of the moste effectuall kyndes of prayour / be profytable to the tamynge of the flesshe? and eyther cause it the lesse to rebelle / or ellys (whyche is yet happely better) strength the soule in suche wyse agaynst the rebellyon of the flesshe, that by the valyaunt resystynge thereof, it may haue the more gloryouse triumphe of the vyctory. And for expe∣ryens (let Tyndale say what it please hym) good folke fynd thys in dede / that when they be at the dyuyne seruyce in the chyrche, the more deuowtely that they se suche godly cere∣monyes obserued, & the more solempnite that they se therin / y^e more deuocyon fele they themselfe therwith in theyr owne soulys, and theyr flesshe y^e more tame and lesse rebellyouse, and farre the better in temper / so that all though they were at other tymes and places in ryght greate rage, yet in the [ B] chyrche at the voyces of Crystes mynysters in the quere / wyth organys and all to gether, & beholdyng the solem••ne godly sacramentes, and ceremonyes in theyr syghte, they fele theyr passyons appeased / as dyd kynge Saule in hys ragyouse fury at the sowne of Dauyds harpe.

Now where he sayth that of olde tyme the offycers ap∣poynted thereto, prayed in a to••g that all folke vnderstode / of whyche poynte Tyndale maketh mych a do, and many tymes he speketh therof, bycause he wolde fayne haue hys false translacyon brought in to the chyrche to be there sayed and songen a goddys halfe: I wyll not saye nay but th•••• in Grece and greate parte of Italy, they bothe sayde in the begynnynge the seruyce of the chyrche i•• theyr owne tonge. But so dyd they not neyther in Affryke, nor in [ C] Almayne, nor in Spayne, no•• in Fraunce, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 in En∣glande, nor as I trowe in any place 〈◊〉〈◊〉 elles, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 yet were they good men that brought 〈…〉〈…〉 to all these contrees. And sone after also 〈…〉〈…〉 chaunged bothe in Grece and Italy: the•• 〈…〉〈…〉 the seruyce in the olde langage, w••yche 〈…〉〈…〉 people dyd not vnderstande / whiche wolde 〈…〉〈…〉 so many good men so longe suffred so, 〈…〉〈…〉 had 〈◊〉〈◊〉 requyred of necessyte. And saynt Paule 〈…〉〈…〉 to 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Corynthyes, wherof Tyndale so myc•• 〈…〉〈…〉 the cōmodyte of the guyse that then was 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the C••••••••••thyes, for the confyrmacyon of hys reason agaynst•• 〈…〉〈…〉 coude but rede and speke and yet wolde smatet in 〈…〉〈…〉

[ A] wyllynge the Corynthyes to labour fyrste for better vnder¦standynge, and not therby meanynge that of necessyte the people muste nedes answere all to gether vnto the blessyng of the preste or the byshoppe. whych manner hath peraduen¦ture for some thynge that in progresse of tyme they founde abused therin: ben chaunged in to better / as haue ben dy∣uerse other thynges and not wythout the secrete workynge of god.

And surely yf all the seruyce were in englyshe: yet wold yt not therby be mych the more vnderstanden / whyche was all the mater that saynt Paule spake. For many that nowe do vnderstande the laten tonge, do lytle yet vnderstande y^e sentence, farther then the bare storyes and collettes.

But lyke wyse as in some wordes that remayne styll vn∣translated [ B] in to laten / mē vse them with deuocyon, as amen and alleluia, that neuer knowe more of the sygnyfycacyon then that they be holy wordes: so do there many a good mā and good woman bothe saye and here the seruyce of god in the chyrch wyth full great reuerence, and full great deuocy¦on / and therfore wyth great thāke of god / though they haue yt not in theyr owne vulgare tonge / whych thynge what yt wolde do here god knoweth. But as for Almayne there as yt is so all redy / we se well inough y^t yt dothe no great good there. For where as the people were fallen all redy to many folde heresyes: they now turne all the swete hony that they fynde in the seruyce, quy••e in to the poyson that hath taken vppe theyr hertes before.

And therfore where as Tyndale sayth that there is no∣thynge [ C] he•••• in the chyrch amonge vs / but houlynge, buz∣synge, and cryenge out, lyke halowyng of the foxe or bay∣tynge of berys: yt maye well seme so to Tyndale and suche as he is / but vnto good deuout folke yt semeth farre other wyse.

But in theyr chyrch in Almayne, there is a nother man∣ner of howlynge and halowynge & cryenge out. For where as we wyth holy wordes and trew fayth hawle and halowe out the false fox, and bayte out the rugged bere the deuyll: you Tyndale in your chyrches of heretyques, crye oute as lowde as we and lowder to / for ye crye out men and women and all. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 with your heresyes hawle out all sayntes & bayte 〈…〉〈…〉 holy sacramentes and 〈…〉〈…〉 oute god & all.

If 〈…〉〈…〉 that

is peraduenture mysse vsed in some places / where happely [ A] the fasshyon is more ruffelynge and in lesse moderacyon & sobernesse, then were conuenyent for mouynge men to de∣uocyon: as euyll as I lyke the man in such thynges as he sayth nought, that is almoste in all / yet wolde I fynde no faute wyth hym in that he sayed well. But nowe he saythe not that some such thynges be misse orderd somewhere / but that there is none other.

As for songe I se not why he sholde vtterly dysprayse in goddes seruyce / whyche was a thynge not onely vsed in the olde law but the new to, as well appereth by saynte Paule in his fyrste epystle to the Corinthyes. As for harpes and in¦strumentes of musyke / the scrypture sheweth yt openly both in the psalmes and many other places of scrypture / bysyde dawnsynge to,* 1.3 whych is more then men vse here now. [ B]

But Tyndale can be pleased wyth no fasshyon neyther cathedrall chyrch, nor paryshe chyrch, nor chapell, nor mon¦kes, nor freres, nor nōnes, neyther Grenewych, Syon, nor charterhouse. If the quere be lowde: then they crye out. If they synge any thynge: yet they halow and bayte. If they do but saye so••••e: yet they buzse / so that I se well no fasshy•• can please Ty••••••le but his owne: for as he, neyther cryeth oute, nor haloweth, nor bayteth, nor b••zseth in any seruy••e sayeng. For as th••y saye y^t know hym: he sayth none at all{is} neyther matens, euyns••nge, nor masse / nor commeth at no chyrche but eyther to gase or talke.

But good crystē people whom he belyeth and sayth that they wene no m••n may pr••y but at chyrch: they praye both at c••yrch and at home / but yet more gladly at ••••yrche. For [ C] th••u•••• they 〈◊〉〈◊〉 well that in ••••oydynge of vayne glorye ••word taught vs to praye in oure chamber: yet shewed he 〈…〉〈…〉 spec••••••¦ly deputed to prayour. And yt is none hyprocrysye to 〈◊〉〈◊〉 there 〈◊〉〈◊〉 yt is to praye in the ••trete. For when they pr••••e in the ••hyrche they do but as other folke.

〈…〉〈…〉* 1.4

[ A] so in the playne lytterall sence robbe oute the relyques and ornamentes of the chyrch to, pollute and myssespende them in prophane vses to fyll theyr belyes and couer theyr pok∣ky scabbed skynnes wythall,* 1.5 mych worse then kynge Bal∣thazare abused the halowed vesselles of the temple, to serue his owne prowde execrable glotony.

And when they haue thus robbed y^e chyrches: then lodge they formore dyspyghte theyre frerys and theyr nonnes in them / and of an halowed chyrche they make a stynkyng ste∣wys. And this is yet one sygnifycacyō more that Tyndales mayster hath made a chyrche to sygnyfye scilicet a bordele for brothelys anglice a stewys / whyche sygnifycacyon also Tyndale hath here lefte out.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Titi. 1
• * 1.2

  2. Cori. 12
• * 1.3

  Psal. 150 1. Paralip. 13 2. Regum. 6
• * 1.4

  Matth. 21
• * 1.5

  Danielis .5