A plaine refutation of M. G. Giffardes reprochful booke, intituled a short treatise against the Donatists of England Wherein is discouered the forgery of the whole ministrie, the confusion, false worship, and antichristian disorder of these parish assemblies, called the Church of England. Here also is prefixed a summe of the causes of our seperation ... by Henrie Barrovve. Here is furder annexed a briefe refutation of M. Giff. supposed consimilituda betwixt the Donatists and vs ... by I. Gren. Here are also inserted a fewe obseruations of M. Giff. his cauills about read prayer & deuised leitourgies.

A FEWE OBSERVATIONS OF Mr. GIFFARDS LAST CAVILLS ABOVT stinted read prayers, and deuised Leitourgies.

HAving heretofore written an answere to Mr. George Giffards pre∣tended defence of stinted read praiers & deuised Leitourgies, and since receiued an emptie replie, wherin he doth nothing lesse thē yeild to any sound reason alledged, but vngodlily cauilleth at and peruersly wrasteth the sence of so much as he toucheth, I seeing no cause of fur∣ther strife (his former convinced) to intermedle againe with perticular handling of his chaffe & smoke, his reasons in effect the same before answered, haue only thought it my dutie to illustrate vnto the Readers, some few brief poincts abused by him, that they may the better be able to iudge of the former writings, wherevnto with these few helpes fol∣lowing I refer the trial.

WHERAS I alledged out of the 8. to the Rom. and out of the 4. to the Galath. that in the verie time & action of our prai∣••ng to God, the spirit of God was the only instructor and the only help, no other help mentioned or that can be collected in the Scriptures, Mr. GIFFARD hauing granted that reading prayer is not praying, doth now answere, that how soeuer the Scripture doth extol & magnifie outward helpes & meanes, yet when they are compared with God which worketh all in all by them, or when the scripture will set forth the efficacie & worke to be his alone, they are either not mentio∣ned, or els if they be mentioned, so cast downe, as if they were nothing. God buyldeth his Church (saith he) by the ministerie of men, yet Paul is said to plant, Apollos to water, but God to gyue the encrease 1 Corinth. 3. and therfore to gather from those places Rom. 8. Galat. 4. that there neede or may be no outward help or meanes in the verie action and instant of praying, is far awrye. In which answere it euidently appeareth he is so bent to turne away all truth & raise new strife, as ther can be no expec∣tation of agreement: There is no sequence, neither doth the Scripture alledged proue his owne reason, so that nothing hangs togeather. No man doubteth but that sometimes and in some places of Scripture the outward meanes of begetting and encreasing faith is only recited, and sometimes the secret work of Gods spirit only, sometimes both, when yet they are not diuided but goe together, and all of God both inward worke & outward meanes, though in way of cōparison I neuer so read, but rather the one repeated for both: For shal I say, that whē the word of God & preaching therof is ••hewed to be the power of God vnto sal∣uation, that the inward worke of the Spirit is therfore not mentioned, because the other is of God? thē both inward & outward meanes being of God & Gods owne worke, though the one by instrument, that there is silencing of the one in way of comparison, is not true. But all this is

nothing to our matter: He should plainly haue affirmed, that frō these places Rom. 8. & Gal. 4. it cannot be proued, that in the very instant tyme & action of owre praying to God, the spirit only instructeth, without outward helpes of instruction; and he should haue seene I could proue (as then I did) the contrarie vnto him Rom. 8. 26. The Spirit doth toge∣ther supplye or h••lp our infirmities, for we knowe not vvhat to pray as we ought, but the the Spirit yt self maketh request for vs vvith sighes and grones vnvtterable. In the action of praying the Spirit is here set downe in this place to be the meanes and help of instruction, teaching vs to aske aright, no o∣ther meanes or helpes of instruction in that instant time and action of pra••jng mentioned in this or any other place of scripture: Therfore in the time of our praying and laying our hearts open to God, the Spirit only doth instruct and openeth our mouth. In this place let the word synantilambanetai be wel considered. Againe Galath. 4. 6. it is said because yee are sonnes, God sent the Spirit of his Sonne into your hearts crying, Abba, Father. The Argument here is the same that before: this word [crying] sheweth the worcke of his Spirit or rather office, in our continuall occasions of prayer to direct vs to vnburden & vnfold the heart, so that in the instāt action we see no other. And where I shewed him that reading in the action of praying could not be caled an help of instruction at that time when we were powring forth our hearts vnto God, the eyes and hands lyft vp to heauen, our meditation fixed vpō our knowen occasions, and heart & mouth vnfolding them, my reason this, That the minde & bo∣die could not be intent vpon two diuerse distinct & seueral exercises & duties of minde & bodie at one time & instāt, he inverteth my words, and stealeth them as a new shift to help himself (as he supposeth) retur∣ning them thus in way of question, demanding whether fasting, lyfting vp our eyes & hāds to heauē, prostrating the bodie & kneeling be prai∣er yt self, or outward meanes & helpes to make the prayer more ••ervēt. Euery simple man wil laugh at him (saith he) if he make them prayer yt self; and if they be helpes, then I haue brought the former proofes not frō an idle, but frō an vnsound brayne. Leaue scorning & reproch, and consider what helpes we did al this time intreate of; was yt not instruc∣tion of the minde by some other spiritual exercise then prayer in prai∣••ng? wil he call fasting, kneeling &c, instructions of the minde what to pray? then be must needs plead for his Image & al poperye, if these bo∣dily actions & gestures be instruction of the minde, which are but pre∣parations to make the body seruiceable & apt to & in this dutie. Fur∣ther, how learnedly he disputeth to make reading one of these bodily gestures or bodily actions only, let it be considered of. And as he con∣foundeth these bodily exercises and spirituall exercises, so he sheweth himself ignorant & vnable to discerne spiritual gyftes & exercises one from an other, with the distinct vse of them; demanding whither the voyce of an other that prayeth, be an outward help or prayer yt self, an outward meanes to make our prayer more fervent. He thinketh I will be laught at, if I say it be prayer yt self. Sure if in anie assemblie, or

where two or three are in CHRISTS name gathered together epi ••oa••••o & homothymadon vnto the same thing & with one minde, for avoyding cō∣fusion they do vse but one voice, and that by Gods order & cōmande∣ment, the others hearts going with the wordes & saying Amen, they that heare pray not as wel as he y^• according to Gods ordinance speaketh, our publique prayers are not y^e prayers of the Church, but of him that speaketh only. But now God hath otherwise taught 1 Cor. 14. &c. Acts. 4. yt must needs be, that M^r. GIF. is in great error to thinke none but he that speaketh prayeth. I take thē such hearing of an others voyce, prai∣••ng; and this to be a foule error to publish the cōtrarie; but that prayer both edifieth him that speaketh and him that heareth, and together in heart prayeth, I make no doubt. Yet herevpon to affirme, that there are other meanes of instructiō to be vsed in the instātactiō of praying then praying yt self, were as grosse as the other, and both a confounding of spiritual exercises, and flat cōtradictiō of the Scripture, especially so di∣uerse weightie actiōs of minde & bodie, as proseuche, & anagnosis, powring out our hearts to God in prayer, and reading. At other times I did not only allow, but teach, that we haue al the dayes of our lyues need to be instructed to pray aright, and that reading is a blessed meanes there∣vnto. So that you see whiles you of purpose will oppose, you runne your self vpon the rocke; in stead of iustifijng your accusation of two heresies to be found in my first reason, you haue published this follye, which you must retract, if you wil obey the truth.

Mr. GIFFARD thē granting, that reading is but to help to prayer & not praying, and now being shewed y^t it can be no help in that instāt action of praijng, let vs proceede to pervse an other of his mistakings & wilful peruertings. I affirming, that the holy Ghost neuer enioyned vs to any certaine number of words by stint & limitatiō in praijng, as cōmanding the very words to be said ouer whē we pray, he euery where in his wry∣tings as a supposed foundatiō to their Leitourgie & Collects, alledged out of Numbers the 6. Mat. 6. Luke. 11. example of Psalmes, and now Deut. 26 that y^e Lord did by cōmandemēt bynde them to those verie words sai∣jng ouer, when they prayed or blessed in those formes which are there prescribed. For my reasons in disprouing this popish carnal conceipt, I refer the Reader to my former answere to his published pretended de∣fence of reading for praijng. One reason was drawē frō the words of y^• text Numb. 6. 32. where y^e hebrew words Coh Tebaracu, thus shal you blesse, do not import a tying them to y^e verie words of this forme in blessing, but to the rules & instructions there taught them concerning the mat∣ter yt self for their directiō, which I collected by this word Cob, which is an adverb of similitude, signifijng with vs as much as [after this maner] and therfore cannot be to say the same words, but according to y^e same instructions. Where first he reprocheth me for that Tebaracu was false printed, therevpon chardging me I cannot reade two words right of hebrue, which were no great ignominie in their priesthood: But shall we say Mr. GIF. cannot reade two words in latine rightly▪ because in the

28. page of his booke he repeateth out of Augustine, ••poli sui, for populi sui? This I mention as sory to see the defendor of this false Hieratchie so emptie, to leau•• sounde doctrine, and thus to trifle; if he had bene at the print, it should haue bene amēded it seemeth. Now to the doctrine gathered of this word Coh, Mr. GIF. would invert the words in his owne sense, thus; that where I said, the Lord did not cōmand to say the same words but the like, that is, according to those directions of doctrine, he gathereth, that I should affirme yt vnlawfull to vse those words at all, yea that th••y might not vse all or anie of these words at anie tyme. Whether this be a Christian interpretation of my words or no, I leaue not only to all mens, but chieflie to his owne conscience to be consi∣dered. Yet he still couertly persisting in his error, produceth a place of Scripture, where the word Coh (as he thinketh) is vsed for the saying of the verie words. Exod. 3. The Lord said to Moses, Thus shalt thou say vnto the children of Israel EHEIE hath sent me vnto yee; moreouer God said vnto Moses, thus shalt thou say vnto them, The God of your Fathers &c. According to Mr. Grenewo••ds in∣terpretation (saith he) Moses is not cōmanded to say those words, but the like. True, he is not here bound to this certeine number of words, or the same words. If then they should say, vvhat is his name that hath sent thee, he may not say EHEIE hath sent me, because God said Coh &c. Now Mr. GIF. sheweth himself a shifter: I did neuer hold it vnlawfull to vse anie wordes of the scripture as need required, it is your sclander: vvhere you haue in all your bookes affirmed we hold it vnlawfull to say thy kingdome come, or vse anie phrase of scripture to right vse; your vvoeful vvrasting of the tongue for vntruthes, vvil tourne to your fur∣ther iudgment. I proued only by the word Coh, which signifieth [after this maner] that God cōmāded not the very certaine number of words to be said. And vvhere I sayd the word Coh was so vsed in all the Pro∣phets (when they say, Thus saith the Lord) to this end, that neither the ho∣ly Ghost had registred al their verie wordes they spake, nor that they were tyed to the prescript number of words, he would haue it thought I should hold those words which are recorded, n••t to be the words of God; which vvrasting of my vvords, is but his emptie quarreling to turne away this firme doctrine: namely, that God did in those formes of prayer mentioned by him, prescribe the somme of their blessings & petitions, vvhervnto they ought according to their seuerall occasions vvithin the limits of these doctrines, frame their suites and desires, and did not tye them to a certaine number of words. Now he finding him∣self pressed, in that all his proofes are at once brought to be vveapons against him rather thē vvarrant, It being prooued vnto him that those formes are repeated in other words in other places, and that the Priests vsed other in blessing the people, as Eli blessed Hanna: also that the Apostles vsed other vvords in prayer, and neuer that verie forme and number of vvords, he playnly denyeth that our question vvas a∣bout the bynding & limiting to the verie vvords by commandement, and saith our question vvas, vvhither it vvere idolatrie to vse those

prescript phrases or no. Thus the man is fled, not only contradicting all his writinges, making voide his proofes, but granting as much as I affirmed vpon the word COH, hath gyuen mee the whole cause against his wil: For if these places wil serue to proue an apportioning by num∣ber and stint vpon commandement, then Mr. Giff. hath no profe for his Collects, no though these had bene so, yet his patched broken mass-booke shoulde haue bene far from comming in place of true prayer. But that this is a popish dreame to think in prayer they were bound to some certeine number of words saying ouer, it was also cōuinced vnto him by the Greeke word houtos, where Christ commandith his Disciples, saying, VVhen you pray, pray thus, Our Father &c. Which word [thus] Math. 6. 9. singnifieth, [after this maner] or according to this forme, rules, and in∣structions; for if the commandement shoulde goe to bynde vs to the very words, then this word [when you pray] would bynd vs neuer to vse other words, for the text saith, whē you pray, say thus. To this he answereth, that respecting the rules for matters, when is as much as whēsoeuer you pray, because we may not depart from those matters cōteyned in those general petitious: But in words it is not so there, We must consider to distinguish &c. Wel, hath he not lost himself, and still against his will yeilded the matter; namely, that wee are not in these formes of prayer bound to the verie words saying ouer, and that y^e holy Ghost did neuer by commandement stint or limit vs to anie words in praying, which in deed is common with inchanters: And I take it he will easily yeild me this point, for if he remember Augustine to teach, that then we pray that prayer which Christ taught his Disciples, whē our prayers are grounded vpon those doctrines and instructions, or to that effect: And Calvine to to say; the Sonne of mā would not prescribe vs vvhat vvords vve must vse in prayer, he should haue put vs to lesse trouble: So that besids his mass-booke vvas neuer prescribed by the Lord himself or vvarrant of his word, he seeth it vnlawful to apportion, limit & stint as by measure and vvaight certeine members of vvordes, sentences &c, in prayer. As for his examples of the Psalmes, I refer to my former answere, namely, that praying is one thing, and singing a psalme an other.

Now then vve haue heard that reading is not praying or any help to pray in the instant action of praying, vvhen we should powre forth our owne hearts to God: Also that it is vnlawful to bynde man to numbers of vvords of sentences in praying. Let vs come to the first generall ar∣gument, vvhich is this. No Apochripha must be brought into the publick assemblies; for there only Gods word and the lyuely voyce of his owne graces must be heard in the publick assemblies: But mens vvrytings & the reading them ouer for prayer are Apochripha: Ther∣fore may not be brought into the publick assemblies, eyther for lawes or vvorship. Here hee finds fault vvith the vvorde Apochripha (al∣though it hath bene an antiēt vvord in this sense, and now published in their Bibles to distinguish other vvrytings from the authentick scrip∣tures) vvilling mee to goe to the matter yt self, drawing by firme con∣clusiō,

that nothing is to be allowed any place in the Church, which is not y^e perfect rule yt self in writing or without errour vttered in speach, and he wil yeild. This I did proue vnto him by an Argument hee was not able to answere, and did leaue out the word Apochripha, thus. Only the Canonical scriptures & lyuely voice of Gods owne graces are to be brought into the publick assemblies for doctrine & prayer: But mens writings or Collections are neither Canonical scripture, nor the lyuely voice of Gods graces in such as he hath appointed to speak in y^e pub∣lick assemblies. Therfore no mans writing may be brought into nor imposed vpon the publick assemblies for doctrine and prayer.

Now where he cauilleth about the perfectnes of the rule & absolute perfectnes of the graces, it doth not help him: For the word of God being of necessitie by the lawe and ordinance of God, to be read in our owne language, I trust he will not denye yt to be the written word of God for the vnperfectnes of the translatiō, being (to the best search the Church can make) skanned by the original tongue and stil amended; or at least the Church no further bound to yt, then yt shal be found to be the perfect rule: so likewise the lyuely voice of Gods graces are not for the imperfectnes to be excluded, being Gods appointed ordinance; neither is anie fault in the translation to be allowed, and errour in doc∣trine or prayer are presently to be admonished & repented of. Mr. Gif∣fard then must denye the Bible translated into our owne language to be the Canonicall Scriptures, and denye the lyuely voice of Gods lawfull officers, and such as are therevnto called, in doctrine and prayer, to be the manifestations of the spirit and vtterance of Gods graces for the assemblie, or els grant the proposition firme: And if hee can put dead mens writinges into the place of either of these, I will yeild. In the meane time I hold such translations to be the worde of God, and by Gods ordinance put into our owne language, to all our knowledges retayning y^e words of God, which word & the lyuely vse of Gods owne graces in the mouth of such as he therevnto appointeth, are only to be brought into the publicke assemblies for prayer and doctrine; for God hath cōmanded these vnto vs as his owne ordināces in his assemblies, and no other means wherby either God speaketh vnto vs, or his people vnto him, in the Congregation. To this all the scriptures beare wit∣nesse; the word is always firme, confirmed with miracles from heauen, and cōmended to vs by Christ, the Prophetts & Apostles, to be the foun∣dation, Canon, light, lanterne &c, the graces of the Spirit gyuen for the interpretatiō, prayer, doctrine &c. CHRIST is ascēded vp into heauen, and hath giuen giftes vnto men to serue their tyme & minister in their place in this house. These graces stil renewed, not only in those called of God in this seruice for their dayly administration, but newe work∣men thrust forth into this haruest, as the Lord of the house disposeth: which graces of his Spirit are compared to two oliue branches, which emptie out of themselues thorow two golden pipes Zacharie 4. 12. And to seuen thunders which vtter their voices that cannot be written.

Away therfore vvith your patched mass-booke, yt may neither stande for a foundatiō in Gods house, nor for the lyuely voyces of these thun∣ders: you make yt a monstrous Idoll by putting yt in either of these vses, yet you will make yt serue for both. Wee haue nothing to do with your matters of order, as you vnderstand that order for tyme, place &c; wee reason of the spirituall action yt self, when wee entreat of y_e meanes whereby God speaketh to vs, and appointeth vs to speake vnto him. Wee can cast out the errours in the translation or doc∣trine or prayer, and yet retaine Gods vvorde in our owne language, and the liuely voice of his graces in the assemblie: When you can do so with your deuises and newe hatched Leitourgies wee will giue eare vnto you and them; till then wee thinck of your counterfeit playes and pleas for your Idolls and detestable sacriledge and high propha∣nation of Gods ordinances with Iannes and Iambres to resist the truth. Paraphrases wee hold to be mens writinges and expositions, and not the word of God, nor the liuely voice of Gods grace of interpretation or prayer, therefore to be excluded this place of seruice vnto God. Thus you see the further you wrastle, the further you make your wares, the best of them, odious to euerie godly conscience. You say I deceiue the simple by gyuing them one crabbe amongst many apples; but you may behold your best apples such as the holy Ghost hath fore∣told vs Reuelations. 18. to be entisements to euil: It is well you will grant my Propositions so sound; and I would wish (if such be Gods wil) they might be better favoured.

Nowe because I wil not stand either repeating or contending about Syllogismes, I will take this much yeilded of your owne conclusions, which is as much in effect as I haue affirmed, where you teach me thus to reason. No mans writings are the vndoubted truth of God, but haue errours and imperfections: therfore men cannot further ground vpon them, then they be consonant to the Canonicall scriptures. A∣gaine, The Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles & Prophets: therfore our faith is not to rest vpō mens writings. Where∣vpon doth necessarily follow, that if mens writings may not be buil∣ded vpon nor rested vpon, howe should you dreame it lawfull to im∣pose them for lawes vpon the publick assemblies, or to haue them there read to beare rule as the wordes of God? And this you confessed in an other of your writings, that God spake vnto vs out of his vn∣doubted worde, or by his owne word. If then God speake not vnto vs by mens writinges that be of priuate interpretation, in the assemblie, nor that they can be made groundwork to buyld our faith vpon, or to rest assured vpon, yt will be granted I hope that they are not to be imposed vpon the publick assemblies as lawes and rules, but left to euerie mans priuate vse in their libertie, as they wil answere for them∣selues what vse they put them to, and whither they doe not prefer them before the booke of God, or preiudice themselues by them. This first poinct is then plaine, That only Gods vndoubted worde is

to be imposed, brought in, and maintayned in the publick assem∣blies as lawes and rules, no other vvritings being authentick or Cano∣nical. But here Mr. GIFF. doth in effect affirme, that the word of God yt self is not authentick or Canonical, except in the Hebrew or Greeke Copie: Wherein he goeth a litle beyond the Papists, that wil yet allow the vvorde of God in latine: And if it shoulde be defended, that the vvorde of God vvere not the vvorde yt self that vvee haue in our owne language, it wil follow that no mā could haue assurance of faith, except he vnderstoode both Hebrew and Greeke, yea be able soundly to inter∣pret the scriptures in both. If the translations be so far mens vvritings that yt ceaseth generally to be the vvord of God that is not vvritten in Hebrew or Greek, and mens vvritinges not to be grounded or rested vpon, vvhere shall our assurance stand? And might not Mr. Giff. as vvel say, the Hebrew and Greek Copie are but paper and ynck, many faults and errours by the print in vowells, accents, letters; and so conclud vve had not Authentick or canonical scriptures at al, except mēs erronious vvritings might be of equall authoritie in the assemblie that the scrip∣tures? must he not beare vvith mee in accompting him an Atheist or Libertine in thus reasoning? Hence then vve see vvhiles you go about to abase the Canonicall scriptures, and extol your patched Leitourgie, you fall into manie blasphemies, as I haue before told you. Wee hold yt the vvord of God in vvhat language soeuer, stil reiecting the errours in the print, in the translations &c; as they are knowne vnto vs, and not to the vvord yt self for the imperfections or errours in the transla∣tion and print. Now vvhen you can so reiect the errours in mens wri∣tings, as you can make that vvhich remayneth the vndoubted vvorde of God, not agreeable only, but an Authentick approued Canonicall scripture, authorised from God to be the verie eternall foundation and rules, limitts and lawes giuen by himself vnto his people, you may lift vp your stumped Dagon into this place, if there be some truth in their vvritings (as vvhat mens vvritings haue not some, and the holy name of God verie much) yet is that truth in the Scripture yt self & here so mingled vvith chaffe, that it vvere not only vnprofitable & a hinderāce of the true vse of Gods vvorde, but an abolishing and defacing of the vvord yt self; the maiestie vvhere of ought to terrifie you from this pre∣sumption. And vvhere you say that you decide not controuersies by anie translation, but by the Authentick Copies of the Hebrew and Greke, I trust you speak only of such as are able by the interpretation therof so to decide controversies, and holde it not vnlawfull for anie such as haue not that help, to cōvince errour by the powre of the vvord and conferring one place vvith an other in anie translation, according to the analogie of faith, though I grant vve ought to vse y^• best appro∣ued. But if this vvere not lawfull, surely no mā might prophesie in the Church, vvhich hath not the gift of interpretion of the tongue, neither might any affirme any scripture to be true, but they vvich haue know∣ledg of tongues: How blasphemous is this geare, vvhiles you are igno∣rant

of the powre, wisdome and agreement of the word and spirit, and diuersitie of giftes giuē vnto men; the Word & the Spirit approue ech other, and beare witnesse ech of other, in what language soeuer God giueth yt, to our vnderstanding. Prophesie & knowledg of tongues are two seueral giftes, not alwayes giuen to one member, but distributed as God in his wisdome hath appointed. 1 Cor. 12. and prophesie cōmanded for the more excellent Cap. 14. But this is sufficient in this place, that the word of God is the word of God in what language soeuer, and to ac∣compt yt being verbatim translated, or at least so far fo••rth faithfully translated, mans writing, were blasphemie: but mens writings can ne∣uer be so holden the authentick scriptures of God, how agreable to the word soeuer they be. My Argument is then firme, and thus left vpon you: Those writings which be not the word of God being imperfect, & neuer without error, may not be imponed as lawes & Canons vpon the publick assemblies, or there be read or i••••erpreted, or offred vp in wor∣ship: But such are almens writings that be not the authentick word or God yt self. The publick assemblies are only bound to the reading & interpretation of the Scriptures, which God hath ordeined to be read in a knowne language, and for prayer & prophesie hath ordeined the liuely voice of his owne graces in the mouth of such as he hath ap∣pointed to be the mouth of the Congregatiō vnto him, and his mouth vnto them. So y^• your pa••ched Leitourgie, paraphrases, songes in rime, homelies, and al your dead mens writings, are cast forth of the publick assemblies, and manifest to be Idols whē they are thrust into that place.

Now where I alledged that the binding of the publick assemblie, yea of all assemblies, to certaine writings of men euerie day & yeare their number & portion of words, daylie, monthly & yearely in al assemblies the same matter an words reiterated, in stead of powring forth their hearts vnto God according to their present needs and occasions, was a setting of themselues in Gods seate and taking the office of his Spirit, which only knoweth the wantes of the seueral assemblies according to their diuerse occasions, he runneth away from the matter, as one vn∣willing to heare of this their 〈◊〉〈◊〉 & counterfet babling, demanding whether euerie one should vtter their owne perticular wantes in the publick assemblie, or should pray nothing but that euerie one feeleth the present want of in himself, or should tell the Minister before hand what euerie one of their wantes were; then how the Minister should re∣mēber al. Are these any thing but mere canils? can any of these follow vpō the former doctrine? And let him looke againe, whether he that is the mouth of the Cōgregatiō vnto God in publick prayer, must not cō∣sider the present publick occasiōs of that publick assemblie, and there∣after frame his prayers, all the people ioyning in heart to his words of petition or thanksgyuing, saying Amē to so much as he asketh accor∣ding to the wil of God & neede of the time, yea & if they haue not fee∣ling in such prayers, they are vnfeeling members: yet neither doth he intermedle with priuate or secret wantes, neither neede they tell him

them; he is sent for the publick affaires of the Church, to cōmend the seueral actiōs general & publick, vnto God: And as they are diuerse in euerie assemblie, so must he be a man of wisdome to know, see, and cō∣sider them, lest they al rashly step into the house of God to offer vp the sacrifice of fooles, & make a coūterfeit babling Eccle. 4. Yet the sinne of this is nothing cōparable to th•• doung your Priests cast forth by prat∣ling ouer your English Portuis, which y•••• Lord wil one day cast in your faces. As then in priuate prayer we are to lay forth our owne wantes & estate of our owne soule, which cannot be done by reading an other mans writings, alwayes singing one song, customably repeating in su∣perstitiō certaine words, our hearts neuer ripped vp, examined, nor the diseases therof layd open vnto God, seeking due cure: So the man that is the mouth of the whole assemblie prayeth, as the mouth of one bo∣die, for al their open publick present wantes & occasions: Which occa∣sions, considering the persons & actions, are diuerse & cānot be writtē for one assemblie before hand, muchlesse for all assemblies in a whole kingdome, neither by man nor Angel. See then the mock erye of your seruice booke, and what Idolatrie is cōmitted by yt, to the abandoning true prayer according to the present wantes & occasion.

The next thing to be cōsidered, is, about making of lawes in the wor∣ship of God. Where he would persuade vs that their whole Leitourgie conteining al their publick worship, gouernment, offices & ordinances of their Church, be but matters of order & conveniencie. Then the compelling & teaching the publick assemblie to reade ouer mens wri∣tings both as Canons & lawes in the Church, and publickly & priuate∣ly to offer them vp in stead of true prayer & holy invocatiō, is a matter of comelines & conveniencie. In the meane time it must be a turning away of the whole order & ordinances of God: For what is the whole Testament of Christ but an order for euerie office, person, action in the Church, if he wil haue it taxis, and then must confesse their Leitourgie an other order of publick administration, and so as I haue said an other Gospel, an other Testament, a setting vp an other worship. And here∣vpon I trust I may cal al this an adding to the word of God; yea I wil go a litle further, an abolishing & disabling & dishonoring of the word yt self & graces of his spirit. And whither all this smoke of the bottom∣lesse pyt may not be reproued with these scriptures, not only Prouerb. 30 verse. 5. 6. Deut. 4. verse 32. but also Reu. 22. verse. 18. 19. let the godly ponder and search: and let the fearefulnes of the threats deterre all flesh from presuming to alter the ordinances, lawes & worship of the most high God. And that the verie reading of an other mans writing for my owne praier, or the prayer of the Church, in stead of powring foorth our owne hearts, is a changing of the whole worship into the making mens writing an Idoll, which is by these places condemned as an ac∣cursed sinne, let the most hard text (as he in carnall wonder exclay∣meth) be looked into Reuel. 22. verse 18. 19. The words are plaine: If anie man put or add any thing vnto these, or if anie man take away from these words, he shalbe

iudged as followeth. Now if the adding an other whole Worship, and suppressing of that God hath apointed, be not an adding to these things writtē, gyue sentence as you wil answere. O (saith he) but it is said God wil add vnto such al the plagues written in this booke; and there is in this booke mentioned the lake of fire: As though the lake of fire is not due for euery sinne, and yet not euery one that committeth sinne to be condemned; what sinne is it that deserueth not the eternall wrath of God? yet not euery one that sinneth giuen ouer to that iudgmēt, for ei∣ther yt may be of ignorance, or of negligence, and washed away by re∣pentance in the blood of Christ, or it may be repented of & left whē wee see yt. Mr. GIFFARD hath read wel the curses of the law & all the curses due for sinne, that seeth not how many curses the law & the Prophets pronounced vpon sinne, to call the persons themselues to repentance; shewing together the equitie of Gods law, & yet withal the free mercye of God to al y^t truly repent their euil wayes. Al that receiue the Beastes marke in their hand or forehead, are thretned to be cast with the Beast and false Prophet into that lake; yet I doubt not but manie that haue bene so seduced into that sinne, shal by repentance be saued: Not that I encourage anie to cōtinue in such fearful estate, to hardē their hearts against the threatnings of God, but that I would haue Mr. GIFF. to put difference betwene the curse layd to the sinne, and the condemnation of the person sinning: And seeing he taketh that lake a perticular se∣uere threat to the Apostasie vnder Antichrist, I would he had the grace to consider how it lyeth vpon him, whiles he speaketh out of y^e mouth of the Beast, if he repēt not to turne from his euil wayes. Let it further be weighed how ignorantly he chargeth me to cōdemne al Churches, for this smale examplifying of this Egiption darknes, Idolatrous wor∣ship, and exalting mens writings into this defacing of Gods word and true worship, they neither being guylty of such a sacrilegious Leitour∣gie, as this Egiptian Calf hatched at ROME, neither are to be presently iudged no Church for others sinne, till they ioyne obstinacie to their transgressiō. But shift the matter as you wil, or rather as you cā apeare before God, I wil not make lesse the sinne, or the iudgmēt due to sinne, for mēs persons, no not of whole Churches, if they shal be guilty ther∣in: My desire is by discouerie of the sinne, to bring men to repentance, and vnto the awe of God in his worship: who are guyltie besides your selues in such sacriledge, as to abrogate the Leitourgy of Christ, & set vp an other, or to restraine Gods true worship, & to giue life to y^e image of the Beast, it skilleth me not; let sinne be sinne, and God righteous, and thē examine your selues, if they or you be cleare I reioyce, neither do I think or cā charge them with such Idolatrie as is here erected: I take it you wil be found y^e sclāderer of other Churches, to hide your owne fil∣thines. But saith Mr. Giff. those scriptures are against the adding of hu∣mane preceptes & lawes to be kept as partes of Gods worship to bind y^e cōscience to seek righteousnes & y^e forgiuenes of sinnes, or y^e merit of eternal life in them, or against such rules of gouernmēt as God hath

to be perpetual. In which we must take your meaning to be this; that you grāt where anie humane precepts & lawes be enforced as a part of Gods worship, or as lawes to bind the conscience, or when righteous∣nes is sought in them, and forgiuenes of sinnes by obseruing of them, or merit by them, or if they be against such rules of gouernment as God hath set to be perpetuall, if the additions or constitutions be such as anie of these, then such lawes and constitutions are against the per∣fection of the word of God, against Christian libertie, and in the chief things which con••erne Gods worship, against the ground and founda∣tion of our faith, and so a thing most detestable & accursed, which our Sauiour CHRIST refused iustly to obserue with the blinde Phariseis, wherein you haue granted as much as I euer affirmed: For is not your whole Leitourgie being an other then CHRISTS Testament, your whole reading mens writings in place and in stead of laying forth your owne present wantes and occasions in prayer to God, humane constitutions, and made a parte of Gods worship? at least such pretended vvorship as you thinke good enough for him? Weygh the matter vprightly: A∣gaine, whither your whole Antichristian gouernment, offices, Courtes and ministerie, be not constitutions and ordinances against such rules of CHRISTS gouernmēt as be perpetual, and an innovating of his Tes∣tament, examine; which you shall soone perceiue, if you looke but what CHRISTS perpetual ordinances, offices, officers and lawes for the guyding, ordering and gouerning of his Church be, prescribing euerie one their place, dutie & limites ioyntly & seuerally, and not finde your ministerie registered there, but a strange Leitourgie and worship bor∣rowed from the Pope, which came out of the bottomlesse pit; confesse your sacriledge in suppressing CHRISTS whole ministerie and ordinan∣ces, and erecting an other for the perpetuitie of his, euen to euerie naile and py••: The holy Ghost sheweth that only to be his ministerie, till we be all a perfect body in him, and his whole ministerie and ordinances a kingdome that cannot be shaken Hebr. 12. Ephes. 4. a commandement to be kept vndefiled till the apearing of IESVS CHRIST; his Scepter an euerlasting Scepter; the Sonne as faithfull in his house as MOSES a ser∣uant in the Tabernacle, who made all things according to the paterne: So that it is to be wōdred Mr. GIFFARD should think anie part of Christs gouernment should not be perpetuall, that was giuen by his Apostles the master buylders and layers of the foundation, wherby all actions should be tried to y^e worlds end. May not Mr. Giff. as wel cal into ques∣tion the perperuitie of the Testament, as the lawes & rules for the go∣uernment of his Church. Now if your whole false Hierarchie, Offices, Officers, Lawes, Worship, be plainly other thē CHRISTS, as in our other writings are proued, and shame will inhibit you to denye, how can you be so drunke with the cup of the Whores fornication, to think you haue no constitutions, lawes or traditions, which are a part of worship, and against such rules of CHRISTS gouernment as the Apostles haue prescribed for the ordring of his howse, and the same ordeyned for all

Churches til we become all a perfect bodye in him? But if Mr. GIFF. wil shew himself so voide of al conscience and truth, to say al their tra∣ditionall worship and Antichristian Offices and ordinances be neither part of their woship nor constitutions disanulling the ordinances of Christ, yet wil be confesse I doubt not this kinde of worship and gouern∣ment to be imposed as matters to binde the conscience, being all the ••eruice of God they haue, seeing hee woulde also haue all that obserue them not, to be censured and excommunicat for this merchandize: yt were a sore matter a man should be cut off from Christ and his Church, gyuen ouer to Satan, and the i••dgment ratified in heauen against soule and bodye, for a matter that byndes not the conscience, As though the soule & bodye (howsoeuer some things perteine to the one, or is done by the one as proper worke thereof) were not both to be counted whē the conscience shalbe opened to answere for all done in both, or by ey∣ther of both, even whatsoeuer wee haue done in soule and bodye; and Calvine would but diuide the soule and the bodye in Ciuile causes. But Mr. Giffard would goe a note further; namely, that in the seruice of God in such causes as the transgression deserue excommunication, to be no matter bynding the conscience. But it may be Mr. Giff. doth suppose, that except the constitutions ecclesiasticall be such, as righteousnes be commanded to be fought in the doing them, and forgiuenes of sinnes and merit by them, all is wel. Then, besides the other abuses granted, he must be demanded whither those traditions of the Fathers, which our Sauiour Christ and his Disciples refused to obserue, were imposed as meritorious? whervnto wee answere, No: For in the superstitious washings of cuppes, of beddes, with al such trincketts, wee see to be no such matter Marke. 7. and Christs words in saying, they layde the commādemēts of God aside to set vp their owne traditions, doth shew wherin the sinne was; namelie, to do and obserue such things of vaine glorie, superstition, or custome, as God had not inioyned them, and to leaue vndone the lawes and commandements of God; which sinne is your transgression at this day: Reade therfore the 7. of Marke & 15. of Mathew more diligently. Further those superstitious traditions Gal. 4. & Colos. 2. the obseruing wherof were the denyall of Christ, were neither held me∣ritorious, nor iustificatiō sought by them, manie of them being Iewish ceremonies, sometimes as rudiments commanded of God, now abo∣lished and no further burden to be layde in such outward thinges; no, We reade not that the law of God yt self was eyther commanded, or so obserued, as to seeke righteousnes by yt. Now then to the matter; Mr. Giff. thinketh CHRIST and his Apostles did well in refusing to obey the traditions of the Fathers at the Pharisies commandement, and so must confesse it lawful and a dutie of vs to refuse to obserue your Iewish ce∣rimonies and Romish superstitious traditions, which are so manie as euen your whole Leitourgie and worship conteine nothing els, Gods lawes and ordinances not only left vndone, but al that pleade for them and seeke to walke in them, persecuted with deadly hatred. And how

Mr. Giff. will proue that there is no adding or diminishing to or from the word of God, by imposing and creating more lawes then God hath made in his vvorship and gouernment of his Church, but such as bee made part of the vvorship, or bynde conscience, or bee meritorious, or against such rules of his gouernment as bee perpetuall, though I take all your orders, lawes, vvorship in this compasse; yet howe you can poue this, I know not; for looke againe vpon the scriptures Pro. 30. 5. 6. De••••. 4. 2. & 12. 32. and. Gal. 3. 15. Reuel. 22. 18. 19. and you shal finde, that to add, superordeine, innovate or diminish or take anie thing from the lawes of God already prescribed for his vvorship, were to abrogate his lawe, to laye further burdens then hee hath layde, to make his lawe vnperfect, and set our selues in his seate; yea vvhatsoeuer wee put to vvhich hee hath not commanded, or whatsoeuer wee inhibit that hee hath commanded, is here forbidden: For this saith the Lorde, Ye shall put nothing vnto the vvord vvhich I command you, neither shall you take ought therefrom that you may keepe the preceptes of the Lorde your God vvhich I commande you Deut. 4. 2. And that this was as well in the outwarde ordinances of the Temple as in the iudgments, is plaine in the first verse. Againe in the 12. Chap. 32. VVhatsoeuer I command you, take heede you do yt; Thou shalt put nothing therto nor take anie thing therfrom; and in the Prouerbs. Euerie vvord of God is pure, put nothing vn••o his vvordes lest hee reproue thee and thow bee found a lyer. Now the scripture speaking so absolutely and generaly against al addition or detraction to or from his ordinances, Mr. Giff. ouershooteth himself of his bare word to con∣tradict and limit so expresse commandementes; for these scriptures (saith hee) are against adding of humane preceptes and lawes to bee kept as partes of Gods vvrship, to bynde the conscience to seeke righ∣teousnes, forgeuenes of sinne, merit in them, or against such rules of gouernment as God hath set to be perpetuall. This is true, but this is not all, for the lawe is generall against all inventions, traditions, consti∣tutions, vvhatsoeuer God hath not commanded, as the second Com∣mandment doth also teach. Thou shalt not make to thy self &c; so y^t God hath left nothing to be layde vpon his Church by cōmandement, which he hath not cōmanded: And therfore that place of the Apostle to the Gal. 3. 15. must be better pervsed: If it be but a mans Testament vvhen yt is confirmed no man doth abrogate yt or superordeine anie thing to yt: CHRISTS Testament then being much more perfect, his vvhole minde for the ordering of his house manifested therin, it is wicked presumption to alter the ordi∣nances thereof, or to holde them vnmeete or vnsufficient for anie age or estate. Well, Mr. GIFF. coulde nowe bee content thus far to limit the povver of the Church; namelie, to haue her subiect and obe∣dient to his voice; but that he supposeth there may be lawes ecclesias∣tical made, of things in themselues indifferent; that where the scrip∣ture hath commanded such things to be vsed at our libertie for order, for comelynes, edification and glorye of God, as matters of place, time, and such circumstance. But hee here mistaketh his text, for the Lorde commandeth by the Apostle in that place 1 Corint. 14. that those

publique busines and exercises of the assemblies, shoulde be done in order, in comlynes, to edifijng; and doth not leaue somthing to bee commanded, vvhich the maister buylders hath not prescribed: For to binde those thinges by lawe vvhich God hath not bound in his wor∣ship, wee are to add new traditious to bring vs into bondage of the creatures, vvhich the same Apostle denyeth euer to bee brought into bondage vnto 1 Corint. 6. 12. in his owne person teaching vs so to walke: the Lord see in his wisdome cause to leaue them in our libertie, know∣ing there vvoulde bee no end of such perticular lawes, especially if he had left it to mans wyt to make and vnmake lawes therin: For the or∣ders you speake of then, meaning circumstances of time, place, knee∣ling, sitting, standing &c, there can be no further lawes of them, then the Apostle hath set, and (as the Minister of CHRIST prescribed) that al be donne to edifying in comlynes, order &c. Of theis to set perticular lawes, vvere to break these general lawes of God, whereby he teacheth vs the true vse of them, and leaueth them in the Churches libertie as need requireth to vse them or not vse them: Neither can all assem∣blies bee bound in these thinges to the same in perticular, that being needfull and decent in one, that is not in an other. And in that you woulde haue them no further commanded, then they bee needfull, convenient, decent &c, you condiscend that there can bee no setled lawe in perticular layde vpon the Church in them: For to vse them so far as they bee convenient, necessarie, and to edifijng, is the lawe and commandement of God; and to vse them further at anie mans com∣mandement, were both a breach of Gods lawe, and making the crea∣tures stumbling blockes, Idolles, bondages, and euerie way sinnefull. And when the Church commandeth them so far to be vsed as they are commanded of God, the Churche doth but ratifye and see Gods lawe executed; so that you haue lost your selfe, whiles you shoulde haue proued your bold assertion: That the Church hath power to ordeyne lawes, for to create or make lawes, which you see the folly of, being nowe driuen to another shift; that in the perticular thinges vvhereof God hath giuen generall lawes, wee may make setled lawes, and yet but for the tyme they be convenient; Wheras in deed Gods lawe is the same and nothing ells. But because they bee necessarye in one place, that bee not in another, at one tyme, that bee not at another, of some persons, that bee not to other, ther can bee no lawe sett in the perti∣cular one daye for all assemblies in such thinges. Neither shall anye disagreement bee such amongst the seueral Churches, as need anye contention for them, vvhiles euerie assemblye doe that vvich is to themselues most meet, most convenient and necessary in such things, for the present tyme. The Pastor and Elders vvere of small discretion if they might not haue these thinges in their libertie; and euen these doctrines and examples are in this point against your selfe, vvhich you haue alledged from other Churches. But my purpose is not to con∣tend about mens writings, nor to be drawē into cōtrouersie with other

Churches, whē I am to deale with your present sinne; for the auoiding wherof you thus rage. If your cause be good, plead it by y^e scriptures, and I wilbe so farre from casting out darts against al Churches, as I wil not deale with their estate, till I be further occasioned; the rather may I omitt this labour, for that you haue alledged one place of scripture which you suppose wil beare ••p all your matter: If yt helpe you not, I see not how you wil de••end your assertion. In the 15. of the Acts where it is said the Apostles, Elders, and brethren at Ierusalem met about the question of Circumcision and other Ceremonies of Moses lawe, which some would haue burdened the Gentiles with, we see there (saith he) that the Apostles themselues did decree some thing for y^e time, which afterward were to be altered when the occasion vvas taken away, na∣melie, that the Gentiles should absteyne from blood, and from strang∣led, for auoiding offence to the weak Iues. First let vs see what the de∣cree was, and then it will appeare how litle yt serueth Mr. Giff. his pur∣pose: these be the wordes. Act. 15. 28. 29. It seemed good to the holy Ghost and to vs, to lay no more burden vpon you then that vvihich is necessary of these thinges, to absteyne from Idolothytes, and from blood, and from strangled, and from for••i••••tion; fro•• vvhich kee∣ping your selues, yee doe vvell. For one of these, which is [fornicatiō] we haue here no question, it being by the moral lawe alwayes forbiden: For the other Mr. Giffard would thus reason. The Apostles themselues did de∣cree them for the tyme, therfore the Church hath power to make and ordeyne lawes in things of themselues indifferent, about the worship of God and publick exercises. For our answere, wee vvould haue Mr. Giff. first learne, that he, in saying y^e Apostles themselues did this by the direction of the holy Ghost, hath ouerthrowē himselfe; for these were the Maister builders, appointed of God to be law makers for the whole Leitourgie and vvorship of CHRIST to all posterities, euen all the lawes and ordinances of the newe Testament, confirmed by miracles from heauen, deliuered by their ministery vnto vs: It vvill not follow then, if the Apostles had made and ordeyned some lawe here, that therefore euerie Synode or anie Synode may impose lawes & commandements by themselues ordeyned, till they shew they haue that power giuen them the Apostles had, and an other Leitourgie to be made, vvhich they shall neuer be able to doe, vvithout a newe Christ. Wee haue a sure foundation alreadie layd, vvherevpon all Synods and Counsells must build, and suffer their actions to be tryed therby; they haue not power to inioyne one title, vvhich is not by y^• word of God inioyned vs. Fur∣ther, vvhat did the Apostles here that they had not vvarrant for; nei∣ther vvould they lay anie yoke or burthen. And as for these thinges, they doe as much binde vs nowe if ther be like cause, namelie, not in Idolothyts, blood, or that vvhich is strangled to offend our vveak bre∣thren, if the Iues should be now againe called, neither to offend anie in meate or drinke for vvhome Christ hath dyed: Neither vvas ther here any absolute law made of these thinges, nor necessitye for the present tyme, fu••der then it should bee necessary for the respect set downe; for

otherwise it had bene to build againe the thinges destroied; onlye they thus counselled and adonished the Gentiles to vse their li∣berty in these thinges, as they might gyue noe offence to theyr weake brethren of the Iues, the more to drawe them on in the wayes of CHRIST; for they doe not inioyne yt as a lawe, but tell them they shall doe well if they obserue these thinges, by no ne∣cessitye inforced. But wee doe not nowe obserue these thinges, the occasions being remoued. True, therfore I trust you wil grant, that no man shall bee furder bounde to anye constitution in such thinges indifferent, then there shall bee cause, neyther need wee publicke order to retract; so that you leaue the matter to me, that wee can bee no further bounde in such thinges, then by those rules of edifijng, order, comlines, occasion shall require, so that wee neither need nor can haue setled lawes herein: howe much more bondage and burden is imposed vnder this Antichristian yoke, the thinges being of themselues most lothsome and detestable Po∣pery, abrogating and making voide all the true ordinances lawes and worship of CHRIST, and so inforced as whot persecution procedeth against anye that of conscience absteyne from them, let it bee considered. Neither hath there euer bene detracting this thirtye yeares of anye your abhominations, neither is held lawe∣full for them that seeth them vnlawfull, to forbeare them, with∣out deadlye hate, to bee followed to the death. Blessed bee our God, that hath deliuered our soules out of such Egiptian serui∣tude; our liues are not deare vnto vs, neither shall your reproch moue vs.

Nowe concerning the last places of the Treatise, where hee is vtterlye mute in this, that all whiche stand vnder another Hierar∣chie or spirituall regiment then CHRISTS, bee by outward pro∣fession no true Christians, or vnder the promise of saluation, also for the freedome wee professe in holye obedience to all statutes and ordinances of God; as hee hath left vntouched the matter, for which hee aledged the 7. to the Romanes, namelye, the outward pro∣fessed bondage to a false spirituall gouernment, so I having before largely expressed my minde in that poinct of doctrine, and in such as then were about these thinges opposed, referre anye that desire the truth herein, to ponder the reasons & proofes there set downe, not minding to repeate againe, or to bee set aworke in vnfolding his troublesome and confuse cauills in abusing this place, or to make further replye, till I see more capeable conceypt in him of such principles of regeneration and sanctification, of freedome and bondage; yet for others direction, one cauill or two shalbe breifly set in veiwe. First where hee supposing I had bene in error (and he himself fast fettered in heresie and feeth it not) chargeth mee to runne as farre on the other side, as a wheele turned with contrarye

motions of the streame, for saying I helde the deare children of God might fall into any sinne, except the sinne against the holye Ghost, yet bee restored by rep••tance, Gods grace so far abounding, alwayes considered (as then I noted) that obstinacye in anye sinne, made them to vs the seruants of sinne whiles they so remayn••d, not speak∣ing this to giue leaue or incouragement to presume in the least or first step of sinne, lest God leaue them to themselues, but to giue them hope if they returne that haue so fallen▪ hee excepteth gene∣rally against all presumptuous sinne, saying, of ••railty Gods children may fall, but of presumption hee maketh great doubt, for 〈◊〉〈◊〉 so sinning to bee renued by repentance, for it is spoken of the Maranatha to bee pronounced in this life to none, but that bee in that sinne a∣gainst the holye Ghost: and here to fill his paper (as his common shift is, when hee can neither affirme nor denye) hee putteth me to newe questions: You must (saith hee) declare howe filthye incest is, not sinne against the holye Ghost, nor if a man kill his Father or Mo∣ther or children, nor witchcraft, nor familiarity with spiritts, is not your meaning that the regenerate man may of presumption and obstinacy commit these? If Mr. GIF. shoulde thus vnderstande the worde may, hee is in the same fault to say the regenerate may sinne of frailty: And I answere furder, hee coulde vnderstand the worde may otherwise, if (as in all his writinges) hee caryed not this minde to take all in euill part, to quarrell, hee coulde haue vnd••••stood it thus; that God suffereth of his elect to fall into such sinne, yet hee is able to reduce them by repentance, and hath made promise to re∣ceiue them if they retourne; and not haue cauilled in this maner in such thinges, the horrour in the verye naming of which sinnes sha∣keth the flesh and bones of the godlye to heare or behold; so that his drift is but to cast in a litle wormewood, to deface the truth de∣liuered: Therefore I will onlye prooue the generall doctrine before affirmed, and for these perticulars, let him that taketh pleasure in r••king in them, being sinnes not once to bee named amongst Gods children, answere himself. And much better might hee haue put his question thus. Whither wilfullye committing of sacriledge, and presumptuous continuing to enchant in a false m••nistery, with Iannes and ••••mbres resistinge the truth, persecutinge the light against their knowledge, bee not within the compasse of that sinne against the holye Ghost. That Gods elect after regeneration doe fall into pre∣sumptuous sinne, and for a time persist in obstinate sinne, and may bee restored by repentance, I thus prooue. Manie of Gods children may bee excommunicat, and vpon the repentance bee receiued a∣gaine, as the incestious person 1. Cor. 5. therefore do for a time re∣mayne in obstinate sinne. Againe euerie sinne is to bee prayed for, but that one sinne against the holye Ghost 1 Iohn. 5. 16. Therfore pre∣••umptuous sinn is committed of Gods elect after regeneratiō. That

all presumptuous sinne is not sinne against the holy Ghost, wee shall see by the discription of that sinne Hebr. 6. & 10. where there is dispy∣ting of the spirit, accompting the blood of IESVS an vnholy thinge, persecuting the light they haue sometimes tasted of, and such like notes, which are degrees further then presumption; for there is presumption of ignorance, of rashnes, of hope of mercy, and many times do the Prophets charge the people with rebellion against God; so that all presumption cannot haue the curse maranatha pronounced vpon it, or the persons not to bee prayed for. But sure I grant, that presumption is neere to that sinne, and there cannot bee that high sinne without presumption. But now if all sinne but sinne of frayltie were vnpardonable, your Clergie were in a wofull case, that thus maynely resist the truth, and persecute Gods seruants.

Neither is this doctrine anye way contrarye to that I delyuered, namelye, that the regenerat man cannot bee sayd to stande in bon∣dage to sinne after regeneration, and the seruant of God at the same time by outwarde profession; for none are in bondage to sinne af∣ter their calling to the faith, (to our iudgment) but suche as con∣tynue obstinate in their open knowne sinne after due admonition: that such stande not by outwarde profession the seruants of CHRIST but of sinne, and are to bee excommunicate, hee willingly gran∣teth; and herevpon merueileth how I shoulde gather, that obstinat grosse sinners shoulde not bee excommunicat, which hee might playnlye perceiue if hee had eyes; for if al the regenerat bee in bon∣dage to sinne, and so the seruants of sinne and of Satan, howe should they cast out an other for bondage out of their fellowship by the power of CHRIST? If Mr. GIFF. say, because the obstinate is in greater bondage then the other; this proueth not that the bond can cast out the bond by the power of CHRIST. Againe, if all bee in bondage, then none can bee holden without for being in bondage to sinne; so that none shoulde bee excommunicat, none without, the worlde and the Church, light and darknes, CHRIST and Beliall should bee mingled together. To all which hee hath made no an∣swere, but demandeth certeine questions, and maketh such a for∣mal conclusion, as if all were in bondage vnto sinne. His questions I grant al affirmatiuely, yet denye his cōsequence. Let him plainely proue therfore by euidence of scripture, that all that do sinne are bondslaues of sinne; and when hee hath so done, I shall therevpon conclude him a flat Anabaptist in the cheif ground of their profession. Verye gladlye therefore vvoulde hee leaue out the worde [bon∣dage], and falslye accuseth and sclandereth mee, in saying I holde that men can not outwardly appeare sinners, and stand the seruants of CHRIST both at a time, vvhich is an open vntruth: Yt is hee, that cannot put differēce betwene sinning, and bondage vnto sinne; so that in one vvorde all his questions are answered: If anie bee in

bondage to sinne, hee standeth a seruant thereof. Now for the 7. to the Romanes, the Apostle setting forth the strift betwene the flesh and the Spirit, speaketh somtimes in the person of the one (if I may so speake) and somtimes of the other; somtimes of the newe man or regenerat part, or of himself so far as hee is regenerat; somtimes of the olde man, which is not wholly slaine, but full of rebellion stri∣ueth for maisterie. Nowe I must demand of him, whether of these two haue the preheminence, dominion and rule in the regenerat, the graces of the spirit, or the rebellions of the flesh? The same A∣postle saith the spirit, and that part of the man renewed therewith, which wee call the inner mā In the 8. Cap. hee maketh it playne, The lawe of the spirit of life in CHRIST hath freed mee from the lawe of sinne and of death. What is the lawe of the Spirit but the powre, rule, and dominion of the Spirit of God in vs? And what is the lawe of sinne, but the powre of sinne, and bondage, wherewith wee were somtimes led headlong by Satan at his pleasure, but are nowe freed, that it no more doth reigne or beare rule in vs vnto condemnation. Againe, whosoeuer are ledd by the Spirit of God, are the sonnes of God; and in the 7. Cap. 4. and 6. Cap. 16. knowe you not that to vvhome you ex••ibit your selues seruants vnto obedience, his seruants you are to vvhome you giue your selues obedient? DAVID feeling the great assaultes of sinne in his flesh, and his inhabilitie to keepe the Lawe of God, earnestlye prayeth vnto the Lorde Direct my steppes in thy vvorde (saith hee) and let none iniquitie haue dominion over mee. After the stronge man is cast out, CHRIST bea∣reth the rule ouer vs and in vs, by his Spirit. So the scripture eue∣rye where pronounceth vs Saincts by calling, Kinges, and Priestes, a people set free; not that wee sinne not in thought word and deede howrely and daylye, but that sinne hath not dominion ouer vs: If then wee were in bondage to sinne, wee are the servantes of sinne and of death, which God forbid. Where Mr. GIFF. therfore rea∣soneth thus; the regeneration is imperfect, therefore the freedome is imperfect, therefore there is some bondage, yt is blasphemie: For first our freedome is perfect in CHRIST, ells his death is not suffici∣ent. Then though our sanctification bee not perfect, yet is there no bondage, but a rebellion of sinne; which if yt shoulde reigne, wee were not the seruantes of CHRIST: And while it seemeth for a time to reigne, and wee obstinatly to cleaue vnto yt, wee are iudg∣ed (soe far as men can iudge) the seruantes of yt, and so gyuen ouer from CHRIST vnto Satan, till the grace of the Spirit againe to our iudgement againe appeare to beare rule. As for DAVID in the whole yeare after hee had commytted adulterye and murther, hee neuer pleaded for his sinne when hee was reproued, nor did no lon∣ger cleaue vnto yt. Soe likewise though wee fall and sinne, and bee ••edd awaye with sinne, yet are wee not in bondage therevnto, vntil wee obstinatly and wilfully giue our selues vnto yt from CHRIST,

which you finde not in the 7. to the Rom. but resisting of sinne, a ha∣tred of sinne, a will to doe good, a repentance and continuall reco∣uerye of himself, and flying vnto CHRIST. Soe that your doctrine is false, to saye, the Apostle stoode in some spirituall bondage; and my Argument still firme, that these Ministers and people which stande in a professed bondage to a false gouernment, their pray••rs are an abhomination vnto the Lorde, till they repent and submit themselues vnto CHRIST and his lawes and ordinances. Whiche the Lorde gyue them grace to doe, euen speedely to depart out of the house of bondage, and from all subiection of his Antichristian Hierarchie.

CHRISTS vnworthie vvitnes for the truth and freedome of the Gospell. IOHN GRENVVOOD.

FINIS.