A defence of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande conteininge an answeare to a certaine booke lately set foorthe by M. Hardinge, and entituled, A confutation of &c. By Iohn Iewel Bishop of Sarisburie.

The Apologie, Cap. 3. Diuision. 3.

But graunte, they be the Churche: let them be hearde speake in Councelles: let them alone haue authoritie, to geeue consente: yet in olde time, when the Churche of God (if ye wil compare it with their Churche) was very wel gouerned, bothe Elders, and Deacons, as saithe Cyprian, and certaine also of the Common People were called thereunto, and made acquainted with Ecclesiastical maters.

M. Hardinge.

Ah Syrs, woulde ye haue the common people come to the Generall Councell? VVhom meane ye, I praie you? Tinkers and Tapsters. fydlers and Pypers, suche as your ministers be? Alas poore soules. what should they doo there? For there is no tinking nor tipplinge, no fidlinge nor Pypinge. There may they shutte vp bothe budgets and mouthes. For neither can they speake in suche an audience to be vnderstanded, nor can they vnderstande, what is spoken. Looke in your Bookes better, and you shall finde Cyprian to make litle for your purpose.

Had your mater benne good, it might haue benne defended without lies. Beinge as it is, alto∣geather beside Truthe and reason, for some colour of mainetenance of the same, ye passe all measure in lieinge. VVhere saithe S. Cyprian that certaine of the common people were called to Ecclesiasti∣call Councelles? Yea, specially where saithe he,‡ 1.1 that the common people were made iudges of Eccle∣siasticall

matters,* 1.2 for so hath your Latine, whiche not without guile your Lady interpreter commonly tourneth, were made acquainted with Eclcesiasticall matters? If you had meante true dealinge. De∣fender, you would haue quoted the place: but you knewe thereby your falsehead shoulde haue benne espied.‡ 1.3 The place whiche you meane, doubtles is in the seconde tome of S. Cyprians woorkes, where we finde the sentences of the Bishoppes of Aphrike, De Haereticis Baptizandis: VVhiche proueth your straunge saieinge, by you fathered vpon that holy Martyr, nothinge at al. The woordes be these, Cùm in vnum Carthagini conuenissent, &c. VVhen many Bishoppes in the firste daie of Sep∣tember were assembled together at Carthage, out of the prouince of Aphrike, Numidia, Mauritanta, with their Priestes, and Deacons, the most parte of the people also beinge presente &c.

Now what can you gather out of them for your pourpose more, but that a greate number of the people were presente onely in the Churche, or other place, where the Bishoppes were assembled? That certaine of the common people were called to this Councell, there is no suche woorde mentioned, nor by Cyprian, nor by any els.* 1.4 Neither were the Priestes them selues (which this youthfull Gentil wo∣man interpreteth Elders) and Deacons * called thither, but they * attended vpon the Bishoppes, as in such case it hath benne accustomed: for sentence none might geue, in any Councell, but * onely Bi∣shoppes. Then howe muche lesse were the common people called to that Councell, specially to sitte as Iudges in Ecclesiasticall matters? Mary, that you woulde so haue it, I thinke well. For suche confusion mighte beste serue you to procure the ouerthrowe of good order, in whiche the Churche is gouerned: whiche if it be maineteined duely, your disordered and rebellious state will soone be confounded.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Your Tinkers, and Tapsters, M. Hardinge, are ashamed in your behalfe, to sée your folie. A poore seely iester, to winne his dinner, woulde be lothe to scoffe so coldely. Certaine of our Cleregie wante the knowlege of Rhetorique, Logique, Philosophie, the Hebrevve, the Greeke, and the Latine tongues: Therefore yée calle them Tinkers, and Tapsters. Sutche is the Sobrietie, and Modestie of your talke. Of what Schoole, or tongue then are your Priestes, M. Hardinge, that, for the more parte, can neither Speake Latine, nor Reade Englishe, nor vn∣derstande the Articles of their Faithe, nor any portion of the Scriptures: Clovvdes without Raine: Lanternes without Lighte: Salte without sauoure: Blinde guides: Dombe Dogges: that, as one saithe, séeme to haue their soules geuen them in stéede of salte, to kéepe them from stinkinge? Of what Arte, or Oc∣cupation was he,* 1.5 that Baptized a childe in Latine, in this sorte, In nomine Pa∣tria, & Filia, & Spirita Sancta? What a skilful Clerke was your Pope Iulius. 2. that assigninge a warrante, in stéede of Fiat, wrote, Fiatur? Your owne Doctour, Alphonsus de Castro, saith, Constat plures Papas adeo' illiteratos esse, vt Gram∣maticam penit ùs ignorent: It is moste certaine, that many Popes be so vnlearned, that they be vtterly ignorante of their Grammar. And, beinge vtterly ignorant of their Grammare Rules, I beseche you, for what other profounde science of Logique, or Philosophi••,* 1.6 can yée praise them? An other of your Doctoures saithe, Papa propter defectum literaturae non potest deponi: The Pope maie not be deposed for lacke of Learninge. That is to saie, the Pope, though he be neuer so ignorante, or voide of knowledge, yet is as good a Pope, as the beste.

An other of your Doctours saith,* 1.7 Venalitate Curiae Romanae, inaniter praeficiun∣tur Lenones, Coqui, Stabularij equorum, & Pueri: Through the bribene of the Courte of Rome, Baudes, Cookes, Hostlers, and Children be placed in Offices to gouerne the Churche. Shal wee therefore saie, as you saie, that al your Priestes be Fidlers, and Pipers, Tinkers, and Tapsters?

Somme certaine of oure Cleregie be ignorante in the tongues, as yours be: but not ignorante in knowledge,* 1.8 as yours be. The woorste of them seeth, & lamen∣teth

your wilful ignorance.* 1.9 S. Augustine saithe, Multò minùs malum est, in∣doctum esse,* 1.10 quàm indocilem: Leasse hurte is it, to be vnlearned, then to be wilful, and vnapte to learne. Irenaeus saithe, Melius est, & vtilius, idiotas, & parum scientes existere,* 1.11 & per Charitatem proximos Deo fieri, quàm putare se multum scire, & multa expertos, in suum Deum blasphemos inueniri: Better is it a greate deale, for menne to be ignorante, and to knowe but litle, and by loue to drawe neare to God, then to thinke them selues to knowe mutche, and to haue greate experience, and yet to be founde blasphemers a∣gainste God.

S. Ambrose saithe,* 1.12 Non in Dialectica complacuit Deo, saluum facere populum suum. Regnum enim Dei in simplicitate Fidei est, non in contentione Sermonis: It pleased not God, by Logique to saue his people: For the Kingedome of God standeth not in contention of talke,* 1.13 but in simplicitie of Faithe. Likewise he saith, Verba Philosopho∣rum excludit simplex Veritas Piscatorū: The simple plaine Faithe of Fishers confoundeth the woordes of the learned Philosophers. The Ancient Father Origen saithe, Sapientes huius saeculi,* 1.14 videntes abs{que} Arte Grammatica, & peritia Philosophica con∣surgere muros Euangelij, v••lut cum irrisione quadam dicunt, perfacilé hoc posse destrui calliditate Sermonum, per astutas fallacias, & Argumēta Dialectica: The wise menne of this world, seeinge the walles of the Gospel to rise vp without Grammare, and pro∣founde knowledge in Philosophie, saie scornefully emongest them selues, that al this by suttletie of speache, and crafty shiftes, and Logical Argumentes, maie ful easily be sha∣ken downe.

It appeareth by the Councelles of Carthage,* 1.15 and Hippo Regius, that in olde times Children vnder fouretene yeeres of age were admitted to be Readers in the Churche: and, notwithstandinge either theire age, or wante of learninge, the peo∣ple was wel contented, with silence, and reuerence to geue eare vnto them.

S. Chrysostome saithe,* 1.16 in humanis negotijs, quando Rex Diademate coronatus, &c. Euen in worldly affaires, when the Kinge sendeth soorthe his Proclamations, the Currer, or pourseuante is oftentimes a man of smal accoumpte, and sommetime so base, that he neuer knewe his owne Father, or Grandefather. But they that receiue the Proclamation, haue no regarde vnto him, that brought it: notwithstandinge, in respecte of the Kinges letters, that he brought, they geue him honoure, and with silence, and reuerence geue attendance to the Proclamation.

These simple vnlearned ones, whome you so disdainefully despise, shal rise vp in the daie of our Lorde, and condemne you with al your knowledge. God is hable to make the poore Asse to speake,* 1.17 to controlle blinde Balaams wilful pourposes. S. Hierome saithe, Paulus, qui Soloecismos facit in loquendo, Christi Crucem portat, &, quasi triumphans, omnes capit: Totum Orbem subegit, ab Oceano vsque ad Mare Rubrum: Paule, that is not hable to vtter his minde in congrue speache, beareth the Croise of Christe, and taketh al menne Prisoners, as if it were in triūphe: from the Oc∣cean vnto the Redde Sea, he subdewed the whole worlde. Likewise S. Ambrose saithe, Non quaero,* 1.18 quid loquantur Philosophi: requiro quid faciant. Soli in suis Gymnasijs remanserunt. Vide, quàm Fides Argumentis praeponderet. Illi quotidiè à suis con∣sortibus deseruntur, qui copiosé disputant: Isti quotidiè crescunt, qui simpliciter credunt. Non creditur Philosophis: Creditur Piscatoribus: I demaunde not, what these greate learned Philosophers saie, but what they doo. They are foresaken, and leafte alone in theire Schooles. Beholde, howe mutche more weight there is in Faithe, then in Argu∣mentes. They with theire profounde Reasons are daiely foresaken of theire felowes: These with their Simple Faithe goe forewarde, and encrease daily. Menne beleeue not the learned Philosophers: They beleeue vnlearned Fishers.

Priestes, yee saie, this youtheful Gentlevvooman interpreteth Elders. OM. Hardinge, litle needeth y^• godly Learned, & vertuous Lady, to feare your so vumanly, and childishe toies. If yee had benne either so sagely studied, as ye pre∣tende,

& your frendes have thought, have* 1.19 yée might soone haue learned, that Presbyter, a Prieste, is nothinge els, but Senior, that is, an Elder. And therefore, whereas S. Paule saithe, Aduersus Presbyterum accusationem ne admiseris: S. Cyprian translatinge the same, saith thus, Aduersus Maiorem natu accusationē ne receperis. Your owne Doctoure Thomas Aquin••s saith, Presbyteri in Graeco dicuntur, quasi Seniores.* 1.20 Your owne Gratian saithe, Presbyter Graecé, Latinè Senior interpreta∣tur. S. Hierome saith, Idem est Presbyter, qui Episcopus. These twoo woordes, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉,* 1.21 are expounded in Latine, Natu maior, Natu maxi∣mus. So Plutarchus saithe, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, Olde Trees: So Nazianzene saithe, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉: Goeinge by a staffe, as olde menne vse to doo. Therefore,* 1.22 M. Hardinge, it had benne more for your grauitie, to haue spared these youtheful folies.

Yee saie, The Priestes, and Deacons waited onely vpon the Bishoppes: but Sentence in Councel thei might geue none.* 1.23 This tale were true, M. Hardinge, if euery your woorde were a Gospel. But S. Luke woulde haue tolde you far otherwise. For, speakinge of the first Christian Councel, holden in y^• Apostles time, he saith thus: Conuenerunt A∣postoli, & Seniores, vt dispicerent de hoc negotio: The Apostles, and Elders mette togeather, to take order, touchinge this mater. And againe in the Conclusion, Placuit Apostolis,* 1.24 & Senioribus, cum tota Ecclesia: It seemed good to the Apostles, and Elders, togeather with the whole Churche. Nicephorus saith, Athanasius inter Dia∣conos Alexandriae Primarius, nō minima pa••s Nicenae Synodi: Athanasius beinge (not a Bishop, but) one of the chiefe Deacons of Alexandria, was not the least parte of the Councel of Nice.* 1.25 Tertullian saith, Praesident probati qui{que} Seniores, honorem istū nō pretio, sed testimonio adepti: The Judges in sutche Ecclesiastical Assemblies be the beste allowed Elders, hauinge obteined that honoure, not for monie, but by the witnesse of their Brethren.* 1.26 And in the Seconde Councel of Nice, Petrus Protopresby∣ter, and Petrus Presbyter, not beinge Bishoppes, but onely Priestes, sente thi∣ther by Adrianus the Bishop of Rome, gaue their assentes, and subscribed their names before al the Bishoppes.

Touchinge S. Cyprian▪ yée saie, as your grauitie, and modestie leadeth you, VVee lie, without coloure, and passe measure in Lieinge. And here, as menne doo, that goe by gheasse, & answeare longe before thei knowe, yée finde out a place in S. Cyprian, that wée thought not of: and, vpon affiance thereof, yée blowe vp your trumpe, and cal vs Liers. How be it, wise menne thinke him a hasty Iudge, that pronounceth before he knowe the cause.* 1.27 S. Cyprian saithe, A primordio Episcopatus mei, statui, nihil sine consilio vestro, & sine consensu Plebis, mea priuatim sen∣tentia, gerere: From my firste entringe into the Bishoprike, I haue determined to doo no∣thinge by mine owne authoritie, without your ad••••se (being the Priestes, & Deacons), and without the consente of the people. For dooinge the contrarie hereof, the Anciente Father Origen rebuketh Bishoppes of Pride, and statelinesse. Thus he saithe, Quis hodiè corum,* 1.28 qui populis praesunt, Consilium dignatur inferioris saltem Sacerdo∣tis accipere? Ne dixerim Laici, vel Gētilis: What one now adaies, of al the Bishoppes, that haue the ouersighte of the people, vouch•• saueth to take the Councel of any Inferioure Prieste? I wil not saie, of a Laie man, or of an Heathen. S. Ambrose, touchinge a case of Faithe againste the Arians,* 1.29 saithe thus: Veniant, si qui sunt, ad Eccle∣siam. Audiant cum populo: Non vt quisquam Iudex resideat: sed vt vnusquis∣que de suo affectu habeat examen: If there be any of them, let them comme to the Churche: Let them geue care, and hearken with the people: Not that any man there shal sitte as Iudge: but that euery man maie haue the examination of his ovvne minde.

To conclude, your owne Pope Nicolas, writinge vnto Michael the Greeke

Emperoure,* 1.30 saithe thus, Vbinam legistis, Imperatores, Antecessores vestros, Syn∣odalibus conuentionibus interfuisse? Nisi fortè in quibusdam, vbi de Fide tractatum est: quae Vniuersalis est: quae omnium communis est: quae non solùm ad Clericos, verùmetiam•• ad Laicos, & ad omnes omninò pertinet Christianos: Where did your Maiestie euer reade, that your Predecessoures, beinge Emperoures, were euer presente at the Assemblies of Councelles? Onlesse it were, when question was moued concerninge the Faithe. For Faithe is Vniuersal, and common to al menne, and be∣longeth, not onely to the Priestes, but also to the Laie menne, and generally to al Christians. But hereof wée shal haue occasion to speake more hereafter.

Notes

• ‡ 1.1

  S. Cyprians vvoordes be plaine, Nihil si∣ne consensu ple∣bis, &c. Lib. 3. Epist. 10.
• * 1.2

  Priestes vnlearned.
• ‡ 1.3

  Your 〈◊〉〈◊〉 deceiueth 〈◊〉〈◊〉 It is not there.
• * 1.4

  Vntruthes, boldely auou∣ched. Reade the A••ivveare.
• * 1.5

  De Con. Dist. 4 Retulerunt. Iulius. pp. 2. Alphon. Lib. 1. Cap. 4.
• * 1.6

  Felinus, de Re∣scriptis. Si quan•• do.
• * 1.7

  Aureum Specu∣lum, In Antilo∣gia.
• * 1.8

  2. Corin. 11.
• * 1.9

  Priestes vnlearned.
• * 1.10

  August. contra Academic. Li. 3. Ca. 7.
• * 1.11

  Irenae. Lib. 2. Ca. 45.
• * 1.12

  Ambros. De Fi∣de, Li. 1. Cap. 3.
• * 1.13

  Ambros. De In∣carnatione Do∣mini. Ca. 9.
• * 1.14

  Origen. in Can∣tica, Homili. 4.
• * 1.15

  Conci. Carthag. 3. Can. 19. Et Concil. Hippon.
• * 1.16

  Chrysostom. in Genes. Homi. 44.
• * 1.17

  Numer. 22. Hieronym. in Psalm. 82.
• * 1.18

  Ambrosi. Ad Grattanum de Fide, Lib. 1. Ca. 5.
• * 1.19

  Priestes, Deacons, and Laie menne in coūcelles.
• * 1.20

  1. Timoth 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉.
• * 1.21

  Cypria. ad Qui∣rinum. Li 3. Ca. 76.
• * 1.22

  Thomas Secundae Secundae. quast. 184 arti. 6.
• * 1.23

  Dist 21. Cl••ros. Hieronym. ad Titum, Cap. 1. Plutarch. in Pu∣blicola.
• * 1.24

  Actorum. 15. Nicephorus, Li. 8. Cap 15.
• * 1.25

  Tertullian in Apologetico.
• * 1.26

  Concil. Nicen. 2. Actio. 2. 4 & 6
• * 1.27

  Cyprian. Lib. 3. Epist. 10.
• * 1.28

  Origen. in Exo∣dum, Homil. 11.
• * 1.29

  Ambros. Lib. ••. Epis. 32.
• * 1.30

  Epist. Nicolai pp. ad Imp. Mi∣chaelem.