CHAP. VI. The seekers of the pretended Discipline are not yet agreede, what name they should giue vnto their Hierarchicall parish-mee∣tinges.

THings for the most part are not long in be∣ing, before they haue their names. In that therefore the name of this preten∣ded gouernement, is so vncertaine, (as now I shall shew you) it argueth in my opinion, that it is but a counterfaite. The time was not long, after the creation of all kind of cattell, and of the fowles of the Heauen, and of the beastes of the field;* but they were brought to Adam, to giue them theyr names. And I am perswaded, the like course hath still been euer obserued: that in a manner as soone as thinges haue had their being; they haue also had their names giuen thē: or at the least they haue not beene long without them. Let Cartwright then first tell vs here, if he will still relie vppon his likelihood, mentioned in the former Chapter: What was the name of his Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy before the law. But you shall finde him herein as mute as a fish. Mar∣ry if you will come to the time of the law, when forsooth as Beza saith it was instituted: then both he, Beza, and di∣uerse others will soone satisfie any man, that will not bee Page  89 wilfull▪ What? will they shew it vs in the old Testament? Surely the chiefest of them haue not yet done it, neyther will they euer be able (as I thinke) to doe it. And therefore they are driuen to seeke it in the Iewes Talmud,* which is, saith Beza, blasphemus liber, a blasphemous booke.

Would a man haue thought that men so curious to ad∣mitte of nothing that is not in the Scriptures; would haue stooped so low: as to the Talmud? I cannot thinke that seeing Almighty God would not suffer the beastes of the earth and fowls of the aire, to be without their names, past two or three daies; that he could be content, that such an excellent creature, as this is pretended to bee, shoulde be without a name so many hundreth yeares; as from Moy∣ses time vntill the Iewes Talmud was made. I trust no man will say that Moyses was in this point vnfaithfull, or that the Lorde bringing it vnto him to know how he would call it: he obstinately refused to giue it any name. Peraduenture Moyses a ciuile Magistrate, foreseeing that this regiment was to be placed in euery parish or Synagogue, and that so he himselfe should become subiect vnto it; did seeke to dis∣grace it as much as he could, and therefore left it name∣lesse. Indeed that is an exception, which the Atturnies for it, in these dayes, doe make in effect against such Christian Princes and magistrates, as doe refuse to admitte it within their dominions.

But to come to the name which they finde in the Tal∣mud:* They say it was called amongest the Iewes Sane∣drim, a corrupt worde by them vsed: that was degenera∣ted from the true Greeke name 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉which Beza doth translate Councell. A strange thing that the Hebrew tong should be so penurious, as that it was not able to afforde an Hebrewe name to suche a worthy regiment: or that Page  90 it shoulde bee namelesse, vntill the Iewes and the Gretians had such familiar intercourse, as that they eyther coulde or would vouchsafe to borow any thing from them, which (as most men thinke) was not till Alexanders time, or not much before. But straunge or not straunge: be it as it may be. By this doctrine then of the Talmud and maister Be∣zaes translation: shall wee tearme this parochiall regi∣ment, a Councell, and the Gouernours therein, how ma∣nie soeuer, so manie Councellors? Surely this were greatly to the honour of England, and to the benefite of her Maiesties subiectes. For whereas nowe they haue many occasions to come to the Court to their Lordships, for the redresse of manie great enormities: they should haue a Councell table, to repayre vnto, in euerie Par∣rishe.

But it will heere bee aunswered peraduenture, that wee may not call it a Councell: For that our Saui∣our Christ (minding as they say, to translate the forme of the Iewes ecclesiasticall gouernement, tearmed Sane∣drim, from the lawe, to the Gospell) vsed not that name of Councell, but called it ecclesia: that is the Church. Ve∣ry well: any thing will content me: Howbeit for ought I know, there was no cause, why it might not haue pleased our sauiour Christ, if he had conceiued so notable a liking of that Iewish platforme: but that hee might, also haue re∣tayned the olde name, and so haue made no alteration at all. The authour of the booke of Discipline, hauing, as it should seeme, some such like consideration in his head, or what other I know not: and thinking scorne (as I gesse) to runne to the Iewes Talmud, for a name for this regiment: is not afraid to dissent from Caluin, Beza, his olde tutor Cartwright, and a number of other his good maisters here| Page  91 in: saying, obseruandum est, vnàcum re ipsa nomen etiam a Iu∣daeis ad nos translatum esse. It is heere to be obserued, that to∣gether with the thing it selfe,*the very name also is translated vn∣to vs from the Iewes. And what name is that? Forsooth saith he, Nomen.〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉(that is congregation, or church): saepius a∣pud Mosen certis & delectis viris tribuitur, qui a to•a congre∣gatione adres obeundas designarentur: is often giuen by Moses vnto a certaine number of chosen men, that were to be appoin∣ted by the whole congregation to deale in sundry affaires.

So as by this fellowes saying: Christ made no alterati∣on at all, when he said Dic ecclesiae, tell the church: but kept euen the olde name of it, vz: which it had before giuen vnto it by Moses. How blinde then was Beza, Cartwright, and the rest, that they could not finde this proper name of their soueraigntie in all the olde testament:* but were faine to flie to the Talmud? But will Beza, thinke you, take this at his handes? No I warrant you.

For saith he: vocabulo ecclesiae significari ciuium conuentum, nemo est qui ignoret, &c. Haebrei〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉vocant. Sed postea com∣munis loquendi consuetudo fecit, vt pro eorū caetu accipiatur, qui Christū profitentur. There is no man ignorant that the word ec∣clesia doth signifie an assembly of Citizens. The Hebrews do call it an assembly or company met together. But afterward by custome it came to passe, that it was taken for the assembly of them that do professe Christ. Which custome (I hope it will be confessed) did begin about Christes time: and not in Moses time. And then the disciplinarian Trauerser is very well serued for his sawcinesse, in taking vpon him, to proceed further, then his sayd Maisters had giuen him in commission.

But howsoeuer these fellows will agree amongst them∣selues: me thinketh a man might be bold (by their place of Mathew) to call their parochiall regiment,* by the name of Page  92 the church. For they all wil cōfesse: that Christ called it so. And then it will follow by their grounds, that euery parish or church, must haue a newe church erected in it: which new church must haue authoritie to command & censure the old, and so one Church must be ouer another. Yea but (saith Beza in effect) we are rather to follow the apostles, in this point then Christ. That which he called Church, mea∣ning the Synedrium, that is Councell: the apostles called pres∣byteriū,*Eldership. Quod Christus ecclesiam iam mutato Sy∣nagogae vel Synedrij nomine appellarat: Paulus presbyte∣rium nominauni. That which Christ called the Church, chan∣ging the name of Synagoge or Councell: Paul called Eldership. Againe: quod Iudaei Synedrium, Christiani presbyterium teste Apostolo vocarant. That which the Iewes called Councel: the Christians (as the Apostle witnesseth) called Eldership. And why? Beza would blush, if he could not giue a reason for any thing. Idcirco fortassis, potius quam Synedrium, ne qua pateret calumniandi occasio,*quasi Christiani statum publi∣cum turbare & de magistratuum authoritate ac iurisdictione quicquam ad se protrahere vellent. The Apostles peraduen∣ture called this regiment rather Eldership then Councell, least there might be giuen thereby some occasion of slaundering: as though the christians had purposed to haue troubled the publicke state, and to haue taken to themselues some part of the Magistrates authoritie and iurisdiction.

Well: and are we yet come to an issue, how we may call this forme of gouernement? Shall we tearme it the Elder∣ship? No surely: if wee will follow some other reformed Churches, which are so ofte commended vnto vs. Pres∣byterium vocare Consistorium apud nos mos est.*It is the maner and fashion with vs at Geneua (saith Beza) to call the Elder∣ship a consistorie. With whom agreeth, I.B. the superinten∣dent Page  93 (as it is thought) of the Italian Church in London: say∣ing: Although we haue in our churches the same order, which the Apostles ordained:*yet we haue changed the name of Eldership, & do call it now by another name, vz: consistory. And good rea∣son. It is so called at Geneua. The Apostles call it Eldership: but yet they dispensing with that point, doe call it, as they list. Men no doubt; of a soueraigne prerogatiue. But to proceede.

It shoulde seeme, that as these men, haue chaunged the name of Eldership into Consistorie: so haue others in some places done it into Synod.* Against both which sort, Banno∣sius in his long and tedious disciplinarian discourse, is verie bold to write his minde: that it ought rather to be called El∣dership: then eyther Synode or consistory:* And that for two rea∣sons: vz: first because some men do not distinguish sufficiently the assemblies of the christians, from the Synodes of the Iewes: and se∣condly, because the Hierarchy of Rome,*doth call their presbyte∣rium Eldership, consistorium a consistory.

From all these, as I suppose, many of the French Chur∣ches: or at the least that of Heidelberge doth dissent. For thus Iunius,* lately (a chief Ruler there) writeth. Concilium ecclesiae Senatumue appellamus: quod Paulus presbyte∣rium: That which Paul called the Eldership, wee call the coun∣cell of the churche or the Senate. and so the Elders there are Senators.. Which names, both of Senate, and Senators (sayth Beza) Vt ciuilibus dignitatibus couuenientius & calumniae obnoxium:*videtur studio quodam vetus pu∣rior ecclesia in occidente repudiasse, as being proper to ciuile dignities and subiect to slaunder, the olde purer churche in the West, doth seeme of purpose, to haue reiected. And Banno∣sius affirmeth: that the reason that moued those, where hee was, to call the Eldershippe a consistorie, was: quod Page  94 nomen minus odiosum quam Senatus esset, because it was a name lesse odious, then the name of Senate. You haue heard also before out of Beza, that the Apostles themselues refu∣sed the name of Synedrium, as being all one with Councell or Senate, for the same respects: But all this notwithstan∣ding, now, (that belike) they thinke themselues in some places, to haue laid such sufficient foundations for the cō∣tinuance of their regiment, as that it shall not be remoued, (what soeuer the Magistrates shall conceaue of it:) they shew themselues in theyr colours, and doe call it plainely a Senate: neither respecting the wisedom which themselues doe ascribe vnto the Apostles, nor the foresayd example of the purer West Churches.

And indeede, although at Geneua, the name of the Con∣sistory be most in vse: yet I gesse that Beza, would gladly bring it, to be chaunged, and called a Senate. And I doe partly so thinke, because in his printed Booke of excom∣munication: he hath left out the reason, why the Apostles called it not Senate but Eldership: which reason is in his written Booke that Erastus confuted. Besides also, often∣times in his notes vppon the new Testament, hee tear∣meth the forme of that gouernmēt, by the name of Eccle∣siasticall Senate. And namely, where they dreame it was commaunded by Christ in these wordes. Dic Ecclesiae, tell the Church, Constat hic agi de Ecclesiastico Senatu: it is manifest, (saith he) that here Christ speaketh of the Ecclesiasticall Senate. In another place also (he saith) tell the Church, that is the Eldership:* and here in effect, tell the Ecclesiasticall Senate. So that (to my vnderstanding) he confoundeth Eldership and Senate; making them both one. Which peraduenture will bring himselfe within the compasse of his own words against Castalion: To translate, Presbyterium, Eldership, Se∣natum, Page  95 a Senate: doth argue a greate vanitye of witte, and is indeede a prophane innouation.

But to let that passe: by hooke or crooke, it must be a Senate,* which tickleth and pleaseth some of our refor∣mers: insomuch as in their Latine discourses of Discipline. there is little,* but Ecclesiasticall Senate and Senatours. Chri∣stus pro more Iudaeorum Ecclesiam Ecclesiasticum Senatum ap∣pellauit. Christ after the custome of the Iewes, called the Eccle∣siasticall Senate the Church. Againe: Ecclesiasticall Senate is an assembly of Elders &c. And againe: Cum hic Senatus 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉a Paulo appellatur: Presbyteros esse hos Senatores ne∣cesse est. Seeing this Senate is called by Paul an Eldership: it followeth of necessity,*that the Elders must be Senatoures. I o∣mitte some old English names, which haue beene giuen to this Minion,* as Congregation, Assembly, Segniory &c. and some Latine names also, as the Epitome of the Church and Diaconia Presbyterorū,*the Deaconship of Elders: because they are now growen (as it seemeth) to bee too base. * Rather let vs call it with Iunius (if I conceaue his meaning) mater∣familias,*the huswife of the Churche in Christes absence: or with Maister Beza, Tribunal Christi, the Tribunall seate of Christ.

But yet, for all these wordes: I greatly doubt it; that such honourable titles will not long be continued. For if Maister Beza his interpretation of Christes speaches, Dic Ec∣clesiae, doth proue to be authenticall: then they must be en∣forced (in my opinion) to call their gouernement by a name of no great estimation; * amongest those, that professe Christ. * For let the place be considered, and hee maketh Christ in effect to say: Tell the Church, that is, tell the Senat, Archisynagogorum, of the Archrulers of the Synagogue: who had the power and iurisdiction, that is there spoken of, in Page  96 their handes. By which exposition, if Christ had beene pleased to haue spoken properly, without vsing of any fi∣gure: when he saide, Tell the Church, he should haue said Tell the Synagogue: and the word Church in that place must needes be so expounded. Whereby it followeth: that (if Christes authority by Bezaes exposition may be regar∣ded,) they ought by theyrowne collections and interpre∣tations, to call their seuerall Senates, so many Synagogues. Besides:* Maister Beza saith, that Synedrium and Synagogue were both one in Christes iudgement: and there is nothing more reasonable in theyr writings, then to call theyr Senats Sy∣nedria: which sheweth, that at the least, they may aswell, by Christs testimony, call them Synagogues if they list.

I would not haue troubled you with this tedious dis∣course of the seuerall names of this pretended regiment: but that you might vnderstand, how their tongues are de∣uided about such a trifle, and thereby also perceaue, the in∣fancy or new birth of this fancy of theirs; in that as yet they are not agreede, howe to name the Childe. If it fall out, that it get the name of Senate: what an honourable stile will this be: Senatus populusque Romanus, the Senate and peo∣ple of Sainct Giles in the Fieldes, and so, of all other parishes in England▪