A suruay of the pretended holy discipline. Contayning the beginninges, successe, parts, proceedings, authority, and doctrine of it: with some of the manifold, and materiall repugnances, varieties and vncertaineties, in that behalfe

CHAP. XXIII. In the oppugning of Princes authoritye in causes Ecclesiasti∣call, they ioyne with the Papists. (Book 23)

THere is nothing will lightlye anger our pretended Brotherhood more, then if ti be tolde them, that they denie in ef∣fect (with the common aduersaries,) her Maisties lawefull stile and prero∣gatiue Royall, in causes ecclesiasticall. O•• saye they, wee doe not: wee are slaundered: wee yealde vnto her Highnes as much authoritie, as anye King maie lawfully challenge: we abbridge her of no∣thing that the worde of God alloweth her, and many other such ambiguous protestations they vse to make, in this behalfe. But they plav the deceitfull sophisters: whom the Lord abhorreth. For these are some of their grounds. A man would thinke, that they had taken them

out of Hosius. The a 1.1 Christian soueraigne, ought not to be cal∣led the head vnder Christ, of the particular and visible churches vvithin his dominions. No b 1.2 ciuile magistrat hath preheminēce (by ordinary authoritie) to determine of church-causes. No c 1.3 ciuile magistrat, in Councels or assemblies for church-matters, can either be cheefe moderator, ouer-ruler, iudge, or determiner. No d 1.4 ciuile magistrat hath such authori∣tie, as that vvithout his consent, it should not be lavvfull for ecclesiastical persons, to make any church-order or ceremonie. No e 1.5 ciuile magistrat ought to receiue, either tenths or first fruits of any ecclesiasticall persons. The f 1.6 iudgemēt of church∣matters pertaineth to God: they g 1.7 ought ordinarily to be hand∣led by the church-officers: the h 1.8 principallitie or direction of the iudgement of them, is by Gods ordinance pertaining to the ministerie of the Church. As for the i 1.9 making of orders and ceremonies in the church, they do (vvhen there is a constitu∣ted and ordered church) pertaine vnto the ministers of the church, and to the ecclesiasticall gouernors: and that as they meddle not vvith the making of ciuile lavves, and lavves for the common-vvealth, so the ciuile magistrate hath not to ordaine ceremonies pertaining to the church. The k 1.10 ministers are to determine of controuersies as they arise, and to make or abolish needfull or hurtfull ceremonies. Herevnto may be added that which is before obserued: how he ascribeth the same right in church causes,* 1.11 to an infidel or prophane ma∣gistrat, that he doth to any Christian princes: and of their mutuall agreement with the Pope himselfe, in the manner of both their excluding of Christian magistrats, from ha∣uing any thing to do, as vnder Christ, in his Church.

Hitherto then concerning all these puritane-popish as∣sertious (so much derogating from the lawfull authoritie of Christian princes.) There is but only this difference be∣twixt

them & the rankest Iesuits in Europe, that what the one sort, ascribe to the Pope and his shauelings: the other do challenge to themselues and their Aldermen. Vpon which occasion Cartvvright,* 1.12 finding himselfe with his fellowes ranged, to walke step by step with such a crue, ta∣keth vpon him,* 1.13 like some dawber or bricklaier, to make a high wall (as he tearmeth it) betwixt the Papists, and them in this point. But God knoweth, it is a simple one, and so thinne, that you may easily looke through it, and discerne them marching both togither. First (sayth he) the Papists exempt their priests from the punishment of the ciuile magi∣strate,* 1.14 vvhich vve doe not. It is reason in deed, you should not. But if you doe not, what doe these things mean? The author of the second admonition desireth, that he and his companions may be deliuered by act of Parlement, from the authoritie of the ciuile magistrates,* 1.15 as Iustices, and others, and from their inditings and finings. Furthermore where Cartvvright sayth, that the authoritie of christian Princes commeth immediately from God,* 1.16 and not from Christ as he is mediator: and that the authoritie of the svvord is the same ordinance of God, as vvell in heathen princes, as in Christi∣ans: doth it not follow, that in his iudgement Christian princes haue no authoritie ouer any of their subiects, but only as they are men, and not as they are either Christians or priests? If you thinke it doth not, then what T.C. wan∣teth,* 1.17 I.B. doth supplie, and that in proper tearmes, as if it please you to peruse the place, it will appeare vnto you. Besides, there goeth a letter from hand to hand, written by certaine gentlemen of Suffolke, to the Lords of her ma∣iesties councell, wherein there is great complaint made in the behalfe of certaine of the brotherhood, as a matter fit to bee reformed: that being ministers they had at their

assises bene presented, brought to the barre, endicted, arraig∣ned, and condemned. Which dealing they tearme to be ve∣ry hard, and tending to the vtter discredit of the vvhole ministerie, and profession of truth. So that of all likelihood (for all Cartvvrights saying) both he and his fellowes, could be well contented to be exempted from the ciuile magistrats.

But let vs heare the papists vpon this point, or first part of Cartvvrights wall, and peraduenture you shall find them as forward for their subiection herein, as hee himselfe is, or at the least as small a difference betwixt them, as euer you saw, though it were betweene two twi••nes Good a 1.18 kings may put bishops and priests in mind of their duties, and bridle both their riot and arrogancie. The b 1.19 prince, by the vvord of God, may make lavves for the obseruation of both tables, and punish the trangressors. I do here presently offer my selfe,* 1.20 to receaue a corporall ••ath vpon the Euangelists, that I do vtterly thinke, and am per∣suaded in my conscience, that the Queenes highnesse is the onely supreme gouernour of this realme, and of all other her highnesse dominions and countries, &c. And further, I shall presently svveare, that her highnesse hath vnder God, the so∣ueraignty and rule ouer all maner of persons, borne vvithin these her highnesse realms, of vvhat estate ecclestasticall or temporall soeuer they be.* 1.21 Fatemur, person as Episcoparū qui in toto orbe fuerunt, Romano imperatori subiectos fuisse: VVe confesse, that the persons of all the Bishops in the vvorld, vvere subiect to the Romane emperour. Rex praeest hominibus Christianis, verum non quia sunt Christiani, sed quia sunt ho∣mines, & quoniam ipsi episcopi sunt homines, episcopis etiam ea ex parte rex praeesset; The king ruleth christiās, not as they are christiās, but as they are men, & because bishops are men,

the king, in that respect, hath authoritie ouer them. Harding also confesseth, that if the causes be ciuile and temporall, (and all other causes our reformers do tie to their Elderships) Bishops may be conuented before ciuile authoritie.* 1.22 And it appeareth amongst all the learned Papists,* 1.23 that the cheese prerogatiue they haue had in this point,* 1.24 hath proceeded from the meere fauour and good will of Christian Prin∣ces,* 1.25 the rather to couer and keepe from the people such faults in the Clergie, as might breed their contempt. Hi∣therto then, this wall riseth vp but easily, especially if I should adde in this place, the brethren of Scotland, their diuinitie for this matter, when they (not the Papists) gaue the king and state occasion to make it (by act of Parlement 1584) treason,* 1.26 for any man to refuse to answer before the king, though it were concerning any matter which was ecclesiasticall.

Now concerning the second part of Cartvvrights wall,* 1.27 it is this: The Papists (sayth he) vvill haue the Prince to execute vvhatsoeuer they conclude, be it good or bad: vve say that if there be no lavvfull ministerie (as in time of ne∣cessitie Dauid did eat the shevv bread, vvhich vvas other∣vvise lavvfull for the priests only to eat of,) that then the Prince ought to set order: and that vvhen there is a lavvfull ministerie, if it shall agree of any vnlavvfull thing, the Prince ought to stay it. Surely you are very proper and right liberall sayers. Doth not your admonisher affirme, that if your platforme were once on foot, all men must stand vnto the determinations of your maiesticall church of∣ficers, (that I may vse maister VVakes tearme) except it should happen in some matter of faith, they should make de∣crees against the vvord of God? And (I pray you) if any such thing should happen, how could the king reforme it, or (as

you say) stay it? He iudgeth their sayd orders to be erro∣nious, and perceaueth the mischiefes that do depend vpon them: but how shall he redresse and preuent them? Shall he compell the authors of them to assemble themselues together againe, and to retract and condemne all such their decrees? They are of that humor (as experience hath told vs) that it is vnlikely they will be compelled to any thing. No, it were too great a disgrace for them to yeeld in any thing, that once they haue broached, were it good or bad, but especially when it is decreed in any of their wor∣shipfull meetings. And besides, if the king should presse them too far in such a matter, he might find them (perad∣uenture) but very ticklish subiects.

Cartvvright, to shuffle vp some blundering answer to these points,* 1.28 sayth: That if in such a case the church mini∣sters should shevv themselues obstinate, and vvould not be aduised by the Prince, they should thereby prooue themselues to be an vnlavvfull ministerie, & that vpon such an occasion the Prince might remooue thē. Remouethē? How? By any ordinarie authoritie, which you do allow to the christian magistrats in causes ecclesiasticall? But you haue told vs before your mind herein. In effect, that it must be done by an extraordinarie authoritie, euen by the same right that Dauid did eat of the shew-bread, which (were it not in such a case of necessitie) none but the Priests might in any wise eat of. For otherwise (as it is before mentioned) where such a platforme is in execution, as they seeke for, the Prince hath not any thing to doe (by their doctrine, God knoweth) either with placing or displacing of church mi∣nisters.

Or, if Cartvvright will say that I wrest his words to the worst construction, and that he meaneth plainely as

purposing thereby to confirme (for his part) her maiesties ordinarie & supreme authoritie in those maner of causes: I am content he make the best of his owne words that he can, whether he meant ordinarie, or extraordinarie autho∣ritie, so that when he hath done, he will stand vnto it. But let him say, what he is able, yet he hath a woolfe by the eares, and shall neuer be able so to shift his hands, but that it will follow, that both he, and all the pastors, doctors, and elders, that are combined with him, are by his words both obstinate and vnlawfull ministers, except he shall with∣draw this part of his wall, as being to weake to make such a separation from the papists, as he pretendeth.

For, notwithstanding that the present gouernment of the church of England, is established and confirmed by a nati∣onall synod, with the generall cōsent of the whole land, to be a most lawful & godly forme of gouernment, notwith∣standing that her Maiestie doth so thinke of it, and hath shewed herselfe many waies (as by her acts of parlemēt, her proclamatiōs, her sundry speeches, yea by the punishing & imprisoning of some certaine persons) vtterly to dislike of their pretended discipline, as being, in her princely iudge∣ment, a meere forgerie, & vaine conceit of busie & restlesse heads, cōtrary to the word of God, and ancient practise of all the godly churches in the world, for 1500 yeares: all these things I say, notwithstanding, yet they haue rayled, libelled, & raged against the said present gouernmēt. They haue, and do still, neglect, as well her maiesties setled iudg∣ment, of the vnlawfulnesse of their decreed platforme, as also her lawes, her pleasure, and many commandements, that they should desist hereafter, from that their erronious deuise, and submit themselues quietly to the forme establi∣shed. Nay, they are so far from yeelding, in this point, to

any authoritie of her maiestie; whether ordinarie or ex∣traordinarie, as that they haue attempted by very vnlaw∣full and seditious means, to aduance their purposes against her highnesse will, and do plainly giue it out, that they wil not desist, they will not hold their peace, they will haue their desires, though they be driuen to vndertake such means for that end, as will make their hearts to ake, who are their cheese impugners.

Stand now to your words, maister Cartvvright, if you meant plainly, vz. If the ministerie shall agree of any vn∣lavvfull thing, the prince ought to stay it: and then are not all the packe of you concluded, by your said answer, to be obstinat persons and a false ministerie? If you haue any re∣fuge in the world, it is this; that whatsoeuer the said natio∣nall councell, the learned mens opinions that do impugne you, the lawes of this realme, all the ancient churches, and her maiestie relying vpon them: whatsoeuer they altoge∣ther do thinke & iudge to be lawfull: you care not, or you are sory for it, but all that notwithstanding, you are sure, for that you haue decreed amōgst your selues, vz. that you haue not therein erred, and therefore they must all beare with you, though you rest your selues vpon the truth of your own decrees, & giue no place either to councel, law, prince, fathers, learned men, or any other authoritie what∣soeuer, that maketh against you. And will not H.N. and Barovv, will not al hereticks & schismaticks say as much? where is then the princes authoritie you spake of? For staying such kind of proceeding, what course shall he take? These ministers (as I sayd) conclude vpon their owne de∣uises. The king considereth of them, and findeth them vnlawfull, but they denie it; what shall hee do? Your refuge, Cartvvright, is euerie Heretickes refuge.

If her Maiestie, with all the reasons mentioned, cannot stay you and your sect, let neuer any king or ciuile magi∣strat looke by any authoritie, which you do giue vnto them in causes ecclesiasticall, to stay the fancies of any such fellowes. But the substance of all their deuises is nothing, but pretences of things that are not. And agreeable there∣vnto is this second part of Cartvvrights wall, (of the dif∣ference betweene him and the Papists) who in effect (for ought I see) are as franke to Christian Princes, euen in this point, as either he or his fellowes.

Princes a 1.29 extraordinarily (sayth Harding) haue laudably intermedled vvith Religion, as iudges and rulers of spiritu∣all causes. Goodb 1.30 Christian Princes euer tooke into their hands the carefull charge or procuration of Churches, as per∣taining to their dutie. Good c 1.31 Kings and Princes do maintain true religion, and by the aduise of their priests (vvhen any great defections happen) do pull dovvn the false. And where Cartvvright doth charge the Papists to constraine their Princes for the keeping of their decrees, be they good or bad: although it be true in deed that they do so, and that those of his owne stampe likewise vvhere they raigne, are nothing more fauourable vnto them, as farre as their might will reach: yet as he doth in this matter prefer him∣selfe and his adherents before them, it is but a meere cauil. For the Papists holding this ground, that their Councels and Popes, in such their decrees and conclusions (as it plea∣seth them to make) cannot erre: that being graunted, it followeth of necessitie, that euery Christian Prince ought to put them in execution, and to punish those that shall op∣pose themselues against them. So that vvhatsoeuer they do impose vpon the Church, they affirme it is good: euen as Cartvvright doth his discipline, which he would in∣trude

vpon vs: both of them ioining in this point, that as wel Cartvvrights new ministery, as the popes priesthood, will be the iudges of their owne decrees, whether they be good or bad: and then what leaue they to the Christian magistrat more the one sort then the other?

Surely this wall riseth very slowly as yet, but peraduen∣ture the third part will be higher thē the other two: when you haue viewed them, iudge. Our meaning is not (sayth Cartvvright) vtterly to seclude the magistrat out of our* 1.32 church-meetings, for often times, a simple man & (as the pro∣uerbe sayth) the Gardiner hath spoken to good purpose, &c. He may be assistant and haue his voice in such assemblies. Out of question you deale very bountifully with your soueraign. But to helpe him in building this part of his wall, I will set downe, what is the vttermost that he yeeldeth to, herein; if hee haue not retracted the same, as afterward it shall be considered. The a 1.33 Prince may call a councell of the ministerie and b 1.34 appoint both the time and the houres for the same. The c 1.35 ciuile magistrat is not vtterly to be excluded from such as∣semblies as do meet for the deciding of church-causes and or∣ders: he may be there assistant and haue his voice, but he may not be either moderator there, nor determiner, nor iudge. d 1.36 Neither may the orders or decrees there made, be sayd to haue bene done by the Princes authoritie. And therefore in times past the cannons of councels, vvere not called the Em∣perors, but the Bishops decrees. e 1.37 Princes may be assistant in councels, and ought to defend the same assembled: if any be∣haue themselues there tumultuously or othervvise disorderly, the Prince may punish him. The f 1.38 Prince ought to confirme the decrees of such councels: to g 1.39 see the decrees executed: and h 1.40 to punish the contemners of them. Thus hereof Cart∣vvright, and now come in the papists.

It a 1.41 vvas lavvfull in times past for emperors to call coun∣cels, to b 1.42 appoint both time and place for the same. And mai∣ster c 1.43 Harding confesseth, that princes may do so still by the aduise of the clergie. Princes d 1.44 and their embassadors, accor∣ding to their estates, haue most honourable seats in all coun∣cels, may sit there as assistants, giue their aduises, make ex∣hortations to the Bishops, to be very circumspect and carefull, and in the end, may subscribe vvith them to the causes there decreed. But e 1.45 they may not sit there as iudges, moderators, or determiners, f 1.46 and therfore in their subscriptions they vvrōt not as bishops did, definientes subscripsimus, but con∣sentientes. Neither g 1.47 vvere the councels called Imperatoria, but Episcopalia. Princes h 1.48 may be assistant in councels. Nay (sayth Saunders) they may be presidents ouer Bishops in coun∣cels, ad pacem & concordiam retinendam, vt nullum fieri tu∣multum permittant: tumultuantem vero custodiae mancipent, and cause such assemblies to auoid all delaies. Alli 1.49 Christi∣an princes ought to confirme the decrees of generall coun∣cels: to see k 1.50 the decrees executed, and to punish the contem∣ners of them.

Compare these places with Cartvvrights words, and tell me what great difference ye find betweene them. But what if Cartvvright (as I sayd) haue retracted these points? then it must needs be confessed that the Papists do yeeld more to Christian princes in causes ecclesiastical, then the puritans.

Notes

• a 1.1

  T.C. lib. 2. pa. 48.
• b 1.2

  T.C. lib. 2. pa. 157. 167.
• c 1.3

  T.C. lib. 2. pa. 165.154.
• d 1.4

  Admon. 2.
• e 1.5

  Dis. Ec. f. 88
• f 1.6

  T.C. lib. 3. pa. 154.
• g 1.7

  Li. 3. p. 153.
• h 1.8

  T.C. lib 3. pa. 154.
• i 1.9

  T.C. lib. 1. pa. 192.
• k 1.10

  T.C. lib. 1. pa. 193.
• * 1.11

  T.C. lib. 3. pa. 162. 163.
• * 1.12

  T.C. lib. 1. p. 193.
• * 1.13

  T.C. lib. 3. pa. 167.
• * 1.14

  T.C. p. 193.
• * 1.15

  Admon. 2. p. 61.
• * 1.16

  Lib. 2. p.
• * 1.17

  I.B. p. 82.
• a 1.18

  Harding a∣gainst the Apo. 306.307
• b 1.19

  Hard. ibid. 303.
• * 1.20

  Fecknam to B. Horne.
• * 1.21

  Saunders de vis. Mona. li. 2. cap. 3.
• * 1.22

  Reioynder fol. 379.
• * 1.23

  Pet. Mart. de magi. sect. 23.
• * 1.24

  Hard. so. 229.
• * 1.25

  Def. of the Apol. 664.
• * 1.26

  Acts of par-lement. ca. 2.
• * 1.27

  T. C. 2.2. p. 164. lin. 29.
• * 1.28

  Lib. 3. p. 167.
• a 1.29

  Conf. Apol. par. 6. p. 317.
• b 1.30

  Ibid. fo. 304.
• c 1.31

  Hard. ibid.
• * 1.32

  T.C. 2.2. p. 164. & 167.
• a 1.33

  T.C. 2.2. p. 157.
• b 1.34

  T.C. ib. 161
• c 1.35

  T.C. 2.2.162.167.161
• d 1.36

  bid. 156.
• e 1.37

  bid. 161.
• f 1.38

  T.C. 2.2. 157.
• g 1.39

  T.C. 12.193.
• h 1.40

  T.C. 2.2. p. 156.
• a 1.41

  Saunders. lib. 2. c. 3.
• b 1.42

  Ibid.
• c 1.43

  Confut. A∣pol. par. 6. 309.
• d 1.44

  Hard. fol. 217. fol. 314.
• e 1.45

  fol. 313.310.315.
• f 1.46

  Hard. 317.
• g 1.47

  ard. 312
• h 1.48

  He Mo∣narch. lib. 2. cap. 3.
• i 1.49

  Hard. conf. Apol. par. 6. p. 317.
• k 1.50

  Saun. lib. 2. cap. 3.