A playne demonstration of Iohn Frithes lacke of witte and learnynge in his vnderstandynge of holie scripture and of the olde holy doctours, in the blessed sacrament of the aulter, newly set foorthe by Iohn Gwynneth clerke.

Cap. 47.

CATH.

Then for a farther triall thereof, I wolde wishe the to take so muche payne (which were not great) as to reade ouer that notable and worthy booke, intituled, (the assercion and defence of the sacra∣ment of the aulter) made by maister doctour Smith of Oxforde a man well known to be of great and famouse learnyng. Wherin amonge other his good and perfecte solutions, to a great sorte of Frithes hereticall obiecti∣ons, thou shalt fynde one solution concernyng this mat∣ter, in the .148. leafe of the said booke, where part of the woordes be these.

For an answere here vnto (meanyng Frithes allegacion of Gelasius) ye shall vnderstand (saith he) that this saiyng ascrybed vnto Gelasius, beynge of this sorte as it is, is neyther founde in anie of the woorkes reputed and ta∣ken for the trew and vndoubted woorkes of Gelasius, nor yet it is so redde in the sayd booke, intituled, Antidotum contra hereses, as here in this obiection it is deduced, like as it shall manifestly appere vnto the reader therof, con∣ferrynge them both together. And vndoubtedly amonges learned catholyke men, it is constantly beleued, that this saiyng of Gelasius, as it is here deduced, is falsly ascry∣bed vnto gelasius, and counterfet by the lutherians, who (for the maintenance of their false errour and naughtie o∣pinion or heresy, beyng that with the very trew body and blood of Christe, there remaineth materiall breadde and materiall wine) haue so contriued the matter, that where in all Gelasius woorkes, there can not be founde any one saiynge after this sort, they haue yet iobbed it in, in an other booke. Ye and to auoyde suspicion of falshed, and to get them the better credite, they haue put it in the sayde booke, hauynge an honeste name, beynge intytuled a tryacle or remedy agaynste heresies, thynkynge that in suche a booke, hauynge suche a title no man will

thinke that any heresies are planted at all, to be maintey∣ned in anye wyse, But that in suche a booke all ve∣ritees and catholike assertions are set forth to bee allowed. And that this is very lyke te be as I do say, it appereth in maner notoriously of it selfe, as well for that the sayde sai∣ynge, as here it is deduced, is not (as I sayde) amonges the other saiynges of Gelasius in his knowne and appro∣ued woorkes, as also for that no writer (in the sayd Gelasi∣us tyme) dyd eyther holde this opinion, so ascribed to ge∣lasius, nor yet any thynge speaketh in or for the confuta∣cion therof, which vndoubtedly they woulde haue done, in case the thynge had bene so in deede, as it is deduced and purposed for trew, semblably as they did the lyke, a∣gaynste all other errour and heresies, whiche then dyd sprynge and were sowne abrode, especially beyng of such importaunce and weyght as this is of. Moreouer this thyng by the way (good reader) maie be noted to the great confusion and shame of these falsifyers and corrupters of bookes (as Fryth is and other also of that sorte) that the saiynge of Gelasius is so here rehersed, that a plaine man wolde thinke that Gelasius had so sayde, as Fryth dooth here brynge him in, and lookyng vpon the boke intituled ANTIDOTVM, out of whiche, the saiynge of Ge∣lasius is extracted, there shall ye fynde farre otherwyse. Ye and moreouer, the thynge whiche ye shall fynde there, in the foresayde booke, it is so corrupted, that ye can not (as it is there) make any sentence of it. &c.

Now these wordes of this great learned mannes set∣tynge foorth, with the reste that folowe in the same place, if thou woldest thorowly reade, peruse, and well way them with indifferent iudgement, thou shouldest easyly perceyue, whether there be so muche as anye lykelyhood that those pretended woordes of Gelasius be Gelasius woordes in deede, or no. Therfore if they be not what doth Fryth get by them? Of the other side, if they were his woordes as Fryth doth say they be, yet

well and trewly, waied, considered and with reason vn∣derstande, thou shouldest fynde (as it doth now already appere) that they make not onely nothynge for him, but also rather, euen cleane agaynst him. Wherfore, sith (as I told the at the fyrst) that all frithes purpose in the olde holy doctours, was no more but only to get some colour of, or by such certein saiynges of theirs, as he could & did pyke out, to make it (as it were by them) seme that his vnderstandynge of those places of scripture, whiche he doth meddle with all, could not be but trew, pretending that they were to bee taken in the same onely sense that he did put them for. And againe sith it is now pro∣ued, that the chiefe of all those places of the holy fathers, whiche he did so pyke out, and moste trusted vpon, he did but falsely vnderstande after his own blinde phansy, and not after their mindes, but far otherwyse and clean contrary to their meanynges, as it hath most plainly a∣pered, euen by the testimony of their owne saiynges, which I haue trewly recited vnto the, what folowth her∣of but this? if his vnderstanding of those places of scrip∣ture be trew, thers is false. if theirs be trew, his is false. And whiche shall we take? for both, we can not they be so contrary. Therefore because their vnderstandyng thereof, is well knowne to be so trew, that euen he him selfe nother did nor durste deny it, and his vnderstan∣dyng so false, that all the colour and craft he could set apon it, is not able to defend nor hide it, who is so blind, weywarde, and wylfull, as, notwithstandynge al this, will yet trust or beleue him? any other but suche, as passeth not muche, whether they go to god or the diuel? wherefore, if the dew consideracion hereof, be not e∣noughe

to a certayne thee, that he was but a false and a wicked teacher of errour and Heresye, it shalbe e∣noughe to a certen me, that thou arte but a man in∣tractable, and full of insatiabilite. And therfore more of me now, thou gettest not at thys time.

HERE.

Yes syr a litle, I pray you. For what say you to hys natu∣rall reasons, whiche ye haue reported to be nothynge worthe, and promised to proue the same? Therefore I wolde fayne here, what ye wolde say to some of them eare we parte.

CATH.

I maruel that euer thou wilt require, looke after, or regarde anye reasons of hys, whome thou haste seene proued so false and foo∣lishe as he was. For thou hast now hearde to ma∣nie good reasons agaynst him, to thynke that anye of hys, can make wyth him. For verie reason thou mayest well knowe, can neuer be agaynst it selfe.

Nor anie one of that sorte agaynst an other, be they neuer so manie. And therefore the manyfest trewth of those reasons, whiche thou haste hearde agaynst hym all redy, myght make thee sure, that none of hys can holde, althoughe they seeme neuer so muche to the contrarie.

HERE.

Ye but syr, ye must an∣swer them otherwyse then so, or els can not I be con¦tente. For hys reasons, I may say to you, wor∣keth more in my head, then all that euer he sayeth besyde.

CATH.

Then must thou take a new daye, for I wyll tarry no longer aboute that mat∣ter nowe.

HERE.

Then what say you to thys, that ye haue loste a greate peece of the labour, whiche ye haue taken at thys tyme alredy.

CATH.

Although in thee, I feare the same, yet I wolde haue thee tell

me, how or wherein.

HERE.

In that ye haue so spiced your talke, wyth suche obscure wordes and straynge termes at many tymes, y^t I cannot tell what ye meane by them.

CATH.

Why diddest thou not tell me so then, when I dyd speake them and was in hande wyth them?

HERE.

I thought I wolde not let your purpose so muche, but wolde and did rather her∣ken, whervpon ye wolde rest in the ende.

CATH.

Then, why fyndest thou more faute with any obscuritee or strayngenesse of my wordes, then thou doest wyth any of Frithes wordes? for he vseth as straynge wordes as I do, and more straynge to. For in the .42. leafe of hys booke, thus he sayeth.

What neede he (meanynge Saint Austen) to make these, woordes and Antithesies, but because. &c.

Now what vnderstandest thou by thys worde antithe∣sies? Canst thou tell what it meaneth?

And agayne in the .52. leafe, where also he sayeth.

It must be, Ratione porositatis vt in igne & ferro, nam penetrationem dimentionum nunquam probabit.

This, he doth not so muche, as expresse, or turne into englyshe. how be it that was perchaunce because his ig∣norant disciples should thinke him the greater clarke. for some there be, that, the lesse they vnderstand of what so euer they heare, the better lerned iudge they him, which is the speker. But notwithstanding, if he had put foorth the very englishe of it, as it had bene his parte to do, sith he wryteth in Englishe, yet how muche shouldest thou haue bene the wyser for that?

HER.

Euen so muche as the vnderstandyng of that commeth to. For then I should haue known what he meaneth by it.

CAT.

that will I see streight way. For the englishe of it is this.

It must be (sayeth he) by reason of porsfite, as in fyet and yron, for penetration of dementions he shall neuer proue.

Now tell me what he meaneth by it?

HERE.

That coulde I soone doo, yf it were not for a worde or two.

CATHOLI.

why for that worde or two, but because thou doest not vnderstande them? And why doest thou not vnderstande them, but because they be to thee, obscure and straynge as euery thinge is to him that knoweth it not. And therefore sythe he v∣seth wordes and termes, more obscure and straynge then I do, how come this to passe, that thou cannest not as well away with the obscurite and strayngenesse of my talke full of trewth, as thou cannest wyth the abscurite and straygenes of hys talke, full of errour and falshed? Wherein thys augmenteth my maruell greatlie, that euer thou woldest be so lyght and so rashe as to chaynge thy faythe in so weyghty a matter as thys is, beynge not able (as thou arte not, by thine owne say∣inge) to vnderstande suche conuenient and necessary talke therof, as it requireth vpon suche occasion, as Frythe and other Heretikes hath giuen vnto it. Where∣fore in those poyntes, whyche thou art ignorant of, trust nother thy selfe, nor yet those, whiche are as blynde as thou arte, or as false as Frithe was. But consulte wyth suche as can skyll, and be of good wyll, for at theyr handes thou shalt be sure of nothynge but trewth. And now get thee hence I pray thee, for I haue some what els to doo.

HERE.

Then syr, when shall I come vnto you agayne to here what ye can say to Frythes reasons?

CATHOLICVS.

Come to me when thou wylt.

HERE.

To morrow by eyght

of the cloke?

CATH.

Content.

HERE.

Then I wyll say no more at thys tyme, but God be wyth you.

CATH.

Farewell.