A manifeste detection of the notable falshed of that part of Iohn Frithes boke whiche he calleth his foundacion, and bosteth it to be inuincible: newly set foorthe by Iohn Gwinneth clerke.

Cap. 19. (Book 19)

HERE.

Naie sir not so. For he wolde not call it the very foundacion of all his matter, if he had not somewhat els, to make for hym then all this.

CA.

I praie thee what is that?

HE.

No lesse then an other saiynge of saint Austen, whiche maketh as well for hym as any thyng that ye herde yet.

CA.

I thinke thou saidest not a trewer worde to daie.

HE.

Naie sir, I wot what you meane by that wel enough: but I meane this, that it maketh for him very wel.

CA.

Who wold beleue that, knowyng so much as thou hast herde?

HE.

That is no matter saint Austens woordes (he saith) be these.

As many as in that māna, did vnderstande Christe, did eate the same spirituall meate that we dooe. But as ma∣ny as sought onely to fill and satisfie their hunger with that māna, did eate and are deade. And likewise the same drinke. For the stone was Christe.

CATH.

What I praie thee, will Frith make of this?

HERE.

Mary sir ye shall here his owne woordes.

Here you maie gather (he saith) of saint Austen, that the māna was vnto them, as the breade is vnto vs. And like∣wise that the water was to them, as the wyne is to vs: whiche anone shall appere more plainly.

CA.

So it had nede. For he sendeth vs here to a ga∣therynge, wherin I see not what we can gather more trewly, then euen the same of him, that we haue gathe∣red before.

HERE.

No sir, for he dooth alege, that saint Austen saith furder these woordes:

Moyses also did eate manna, Aron, and Phinees did eate of it: and many other did there eate of it, whiche pleased god, and are not deade. Why so? Because thei vnder∣stode the visible meate spiritually. Thei were spiritually an hungered, thei tasted it spiritually, that thei might spiritually be replenished: thei did all eate the same spiri∣tuall meate, and all did drinke the same spiritual drinke, Euen the same spirituall meate, albeit an other bodely meate. For thei did eate manna: and we eate an other thynge: but thei did eate the same spiritual, whiche we dooe. And thei all dranke the same spiritual drinke. Thei dranke one thynge, and we an other, but that was in the outwarde apparence: whiche for all that did signifie the same thing spiritually, how dranke thei the same drinke? Thei (saith the apostle) dranke of the spirituall stone folo∣wyng them, and that stone was Christe.

Now sir al this doth he allege of saint Austen.

CA.

Yea, but doest thou recite it trewly, as he doth allege it?

HE.

Euen as he doth translate it out of latine into englishe, looke in his booke when ye will. And therfore what saie ye to it?

CA.

This same I sai to it, that al this same dif∣ficultee of this same point, after this same maner, is put this same waie, clene out of doubte, if men take this same trewth, as it is in dede, y^t this same errour, of this same felow, made hym of this same blindnesse, that he was of

this same iugemēt, that this same worde, the same: could none otherwise be vnderstande, but euen the same waie, that he thought the same shuld draw men, from the same feith, which al trew christen people doth holde, & bringe them into the same heresie, whiche the same Frith hym selfe doth teache. And all this same (I saie) did he, by rea∣son of this same worde the same. For is he not as one in a maze, now in the same path, where he began? And ther∣fore euen iuste in the same case, that he was than? For is there any other cause, why he doth allege these wordes of saint Austen, but that he saith thei did eate and drinke the same spiritual meate & drynke, that we dooe? For what if saint Austen had put this worde: an other: in the place of this woorde the same? or els had left them both cleane out?

HE.

Sir that had ben an other matter: it had bene then, nothyng for Frithes purpose. And therfore he wolde not alleged it, if it had ben so.

CA.

Thou saist very trew. And therfore all that semeth herein, any thyng to make for him, thou maiest well perceiue, doth only reste (as I saide) in this same woorde, the same. And haste thou not herde enough, what a proper principle it is, beyng vnde∣fined, to proue or conclude any thyng by? Neuerthelesse, Whē Frith him selfe doth take this same spiritual meate and drynke, to be the bodie & bloode of Christe, as in the iiii. leafe of his booke, his owne wordes therof are these, This Abraham (he saith) did both eate his bodie and' drynke his bloode, through feith.'

I wolde therfore wit of hym, whether he take the same meate, & drinke, to be only spiritual & not corporal: or els both spiritual & also corporal?

HE.

He doth take it to be both, & so do I.

CA.

As how?

HE.

Euen as he doth here allege of. S. Aust. y^t thei did eate māna, and we an other thīg? which thing{is} are both corporal, wherein, that same,

which thei did, and we dooe eate, is one spirituall meate: And therfore that, whiche thei did, and we dooe eate, is both spirituall and corporall.

CATH.

Thou plai∣est Frith with me now in dede. For my question is one, and thou answerest me to an other. I aske not of their corporall meate, nor of ours nother, whiche to them was, and to vs is, subiecte to the eie, and other outwarde sences: but I aske onely of the spirituall meate, whiche was to them and is to vs (as saint Austen saith) all one and the same. Therfore whether that be onely spiri∣tuall, and not corporall, or els bothe corporall and spiri∣tuall, is my question.

HERE.

What if he saie it bee onely corporall, and not spirituall?

CATH.

Then is he directly againste saint Paule in his firste epistle, and xv. chapiter to the corinthians.

HERE.

What if he saie it be onely spirituall, and not corporall?

CATH.

Then he is directly against the veritee of Christes bodie. And therfore I wolde wit what he wolde saie to my que∣stion?

HERE.

He wolde saie, it was spirituall in the olde fathers daies before thincarnacion: And now cor∣porall.

CATH.

What, onely spirituall then, and one∣ly corporall nowe?

HERE.

Naie, onely spiritual then, and both spirituall and corporall nowe?* 1.1

CATH.

Then he can not denie, but that same meate, is both so, and o∣therwise nowe, then it was then, when it was then but onely spirituall, and now both spirituall and corpo∣rall.

HERE.

That I graunte.

CATH.

Therfore sith it is both so, and also otherwise nowe, than it was then: why shulde it not be so, and otherwise eaten now, than it was eaten then? For it was not then, the same it is nowe, really in dede. And yet is it nowe, the same it was then, virtually in effecte. Wherfore there muste

be a corespondence betwene the very present state of the meate, and the very eatyng therof euen nowe, as there was then. And therfore when saint Austen (after the minde of the apostle) speaketh here only of that eatyng, whiche is accordynge to the meate, as it was then virtu∣ally in effecte, and not of that eatynge, whiche is accor∣dynge to the meate, as it is nowe really in dede: what maketh he for Frithes purpose?

HERE.

It maketh for hym this: That as thei did eate the same spirituall meate, whiche we dooe nowe, and were saued by the be∣lefe and feithe therof, as well as we are: so, Frith wolde haue it folow, that we are not bounde to beleue any other maner of eatyng of the same meate, beside the outwarde apparence, than thei were then, because the same feithe (he saith) saueth vs, whiche saued them.

CATH.

As touchynge the same feithe, thou haste herde enough alre∣die, of his foolishe and false vnderstandynge therof. And therfore to the reste. Trewe thou saiest, that he wolde haue it so folowe in dede, but by what rule? by what congreuence? by what reason? is there any rule or rea∣son other, to leade vs to this consequence, that because thei did eate the same spirituall meate that we dooe, we shulde not therfore bee bownde to the belefe of any o∣ther vsage, maner, or difference of eatynge that holy meate now, then thei were then, before Christes incar∣nacion, when the blessed meate in it selfe, is farre other∣wise nowe, than it was then? and when we haue also nowe, an other maner of doctrine taught vs, of Christe him selfe, concernyng the same, than euer thei had then? how farre were this against reason?

HERE.

Yet was it the same meate then, that it is nowe. And therfore the same nowe, that it was then.

CATH.

Trewe it is.

And yet saie I, it was not then, as it is nowe, nor is not now, as it was then.

HERE.

How can that be?

CA.

Very well. For as I tolde thee before, it was then one∣ly spirituall and not corporall, but so it is not now. For now it is both spirituall and corporall, and so was it not then: wherfore as it maie bee saide, and was then, the same and not the same, that it is now: So it may be saide and is now, the same and not the same, that it was then: whiche is to bee vnderstande in the diuersitee of the re∣spectes, that is to saie, of the spiritualitee, and the corpo∣ralitee. wherof saint Austen touchyng here but the one, Frith with the same, wolde deceiue vs in bothe. For els he wold or shulde haue made it first certaine, whether saint Austen did here meane the same spirituall meate, really in dede, or els the same but virtually in effecte, be∣fore he had attempted any conclusion therupon. And therfore because he doth now here againe, leue the cer∣taintee of the meanyng of this fame woorde, the same, so doubtfull and indefined, as he did before, (the whole pith of his purpose consistyng therin) clere it is, that nothyng therof can iustly folowe, nor be certainly proued therby, as thou thy selfe haste sufficiently seene and herde alredy. How be it, the certaintee of a grownde, to reason vpon, is no matter with Frith.

For he will first conclude, what so euer he doth intende, And with an incertaine principle so make vp the ende, As though euen where in very dede, doth lie no lesse then all There were euen vtterly to be founde no matter at all. And while there be fewe, of whom this falshed is perceiued, Small wonder it is, though many be therwith deceiued. He asketh no more of al his diligent readers, But that thei shoulde be well waie of all those same sophisters:

wdich will make thē perceiue him, one of those same warrears, That are of all other, the chiefe spirituall murderars. Be ware of sophistrie, and sophisters, beware crieth he: Yet any one man that vseth it more, didst thou neuer see. And therfore euen now of hym, what a sophister finde we, But one of the very worste, that is possible to be?

Notes

• * 1.1

  1. Co. 15