A manifeste detection of the notable falshed of that part of Iohn Frithes boke whiche he calleth his foundacion, and bosteth it to be inuincible: newly set foorthe by Iohn Gwinneth clerke.

Cap. 12. (Book 12)

HERETICVS.

Sir I pray you geue me leue, we goe about the 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of Frithes mat∣ter, therfore, what is all this to that purpose?

CATH.

Doest thou not perceiue?

HERE.

No trew∣ly. For he neuer vsed any suche thynge as ye speake of.

CATH.

No did? Shall I nede to reherse vnto thee (whiche doest knowe it so well) how he doothe exclame and crie against sophisters and sophistrie almoste in e∣uery corner of his booke, and yet plaieth none other, but the same parte hym selfe? For inquire thou of any ••••n, that can shall therof, and if he dooe not saie, that this, whiche thou hast now rehersed of Frithes owne woordes, is the selfe same scholasticall and sophisticall argument, which I haue here discribed vnto thee, and is daily vsed in the scholes, take me for no better then, (I saie) he is. How be it, I dooe not meane, that it is the same argument, whiche is daily vsed in schooles, when it holdeth the verite••: but vtterly the same, when it hol∣deth the falsitee, onely with these two differences, that in the schooles it is put in latine where he putteth it here in english and againe them it is but a feigned falshed, to teache me•• to be were of it: And here it is an ernest fals∣hed, to teache men to be deceiued with it. And to proue this that I saie to be trewe, First I shall not nede to bid thee, beare his argument wel in minde, which hast here rehersed it vnto me thy selfe. Therfore if thou marke it wel the whole pith of it, doth rest vpon the saiing of saint Austen, whiche as 〈◊〉〈◊〉 doeth allege him, is this, (The same feith shall saue vs whiche ••aned the olde fathers be∣fore Christes incarnation Now if saint Austen had not said, the same feith, but an other feith shall saue vs. &c. it had bene vtterly nothyng for Frithes purpose. Ther∣fore thou maiest playnly see thy selfe, that all the weight of the matter, dooth lie in this woorde. The same. Wherfore let vs now ••…••…e ••…••…rder, what maner of worde

this is, and whether it bee apte to builde a good argu∣ment vpon, or not.

HERE.

That is but reason.

CATH.

then tell me trewly, what thynge thou arte.

HERE.

What thynge am I? what shoulde I bee but a man?

CATH.

And am I any other thynge then that?

HERE.

No that is plaine.

CATH.

Then am I the same that thou art, and thou the same that I am. But what so euer the same that I am, dooth, I dooe: And what so euer the same that thou art, doeth, thou doest. Therfore it muste nedes folowe, that what so euer thou doste, I dooe, and what so euer I dooe, thou dooste, be∣cause thou art the same that I am, and I the same that thou arte.

HERE.

Naie sir, that will not folowe.

CATH.

Why so?

HERE.

Because you take this woorde (the same) other wise then I ment. For although we be eche the same that other is in nature, we doe yet differ in person: for ye bee one persone, and I an other: And not the same that you be, nor you y^e same that I am. Therfore your artes bee not mine: nor mine yours.

CATH.

Yet thou thy selfe, when thou were first borne, were the same in nature, and the same in person then, that thou art nowe, and the same nowe that thou were then.

HE.

That I graunt.

CATH.

But thou were then, not one yarde longe. Therfore no more thou arte nowe, when thou art now the same that thou were then.

HERE.

What sir yet againe? It is two thynges to be the same in nature and person: and to bee the same in quantitee. Therfore ye maie be sure, that I ment not so nother.

CATH.

Then thou or I, were deceiued a∣geine in this woorde (the same).

HERE.

That is trew.

CATH.

Yet that quantitee of thyne excepte, thou wilte graunt thy selfe to be now, the same that thou were then.

HERE.

Yea that excepte.

CATH.

And then thou cou∣dest nother speake nor goe. wherof it foloweth, no more thou canst do nowe, while thou art nowe the same that thou were then.

HERE.

Tushe, syr after this maner, ye might reason also of myne age, and my knowlage, with all other powers and qualitees besyde, when ye maie be sure, I dooe not so meane.

CATH.

Then tell me this, were not all englishe people an hundreth yeres paste, bounde to the lawe of this lande, and we nowe liuynge? also to the same.

HERE.

That is no doubte.

CATH.

Go to nowe, and take hede what I saie: we be bownd to the same law now, that thei were, whiche liued an hundreth yeres paste. But thei that were liuyng an hundreth yeres paste, were not bounde to the statutes and artes of the laste parliament. Ther∣fore it foloweth, no more be we nowe: excepte thou wilt saie, thei be no partes of the lawe: and then we bee not bounde to them nother.

HE.

Sir we be bonnde to the law that our elders were, & thei to the same that we be. But this is vnderstande the same in generall, that is to saie, the lawe of Englande, without any respecte of partes. For it was none other, nor no lesse, then the law of Englande, whiche thei were bounde to: nor it is no other, nor no more then the lawe of Englande nother, whiche we are bounde to. Therfore when it is no more, nor lesse, nor yet none other, it muste nedes be the same (as I saide) in respecte of the whole generally, and not the same in respecte of the partes specially, by as many actes and statutes as hath bene sens, for considerations added vnto it mo then was than. Therfore your argu∣ment is false, and can not holde.